Just for the record Catholics do not pray to Mary. We ask her to pray for us just as we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us. They are the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews and the people in heaven shouting Holy described in revelation. I get frustrated when Catholic Doctrine is misunderstood. Look at the Orthodox reverence of Mary they and the Catholics are the earliest forms of Christianity that should say something. Yes some devotions got off track but that does not change the truth.
The liturgy used in most Lutheran churches today is anything but ancient. The music is modernistic in style, the words are gender-neutral whenever possible, and in the 1970s the Lutherans threw out a liturgical heritage dating back (In English at least) to the sixteenth century. One only has to sing the tune "this is the Feast" to get an idea of the banal modernistic music used. Modernist phrases, such as "hymn of all creation" (from Tielhard de Chardin, not Scripture) are also included.
@MrVictornotvictim Idolatry? Its symbolic. Nothing wrong with symbols to show our love for Christ. Why would you even say this? Its what is in the heart and soul that counts. Should we not wear robes? Should we not show any symbols in our churches? I think you're picking at something that is not there.
Why was the liturgy rejected by Lutherans for a long time and just in the past few years being used on a regular basis? Why is the communion not reserved? Someone once said if you want to know what someone believes, watch how they treat the objects of their faith.
@oakking1 It never was rejected in the LCMS...we've always had liturgy. Communion in Lutheran Churches IS the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ onces the minister blesses it. WE believe we are partaking in Jesus body and blood as was done in the bible when Jesus said..Take eat, this is my body and blood which is shed for you for the remission of your sins. How much closer to God can a church get than this? WE reject symbolism of wine and bread as its more than symbolism...ITS the real deal!
@oakking1 Nothing is bugging me just an observation. Orthodox and Catholics have always reserved the species in the tabernacle for prayer and taking communion to the sick. Only recently I have started to see tabernacles in som ELCA Churches. But reservation of the Sacrament took place early on in the time of the Patristic writers after the Apostles.
@ministercreek NO...Lutherans don't do masses. Only Catholics do mass. WE do not pray to the Virgin Mary. WE reject purgatory. WE believe we are justified by our faith through Christ our Lord and only by the holy spirit can we enter the Kingdom of heaven.
@Marksnotebook In the Book of Concord, Article XXIV ("Of the Mass"): "Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. We do not abolish the Mass but religiously keep and defend it... we keep the traditional liturgical form... In our churches Mass is celebrated every Sunday and on other holy days, when the sacrament is offered to those who wish for it after they have been examined and absolved".
Liturgy, though shaped in part by us, is as much a gift from God to us as it is a gift from us to God. It's a vehicle both of grace and to grace, when we give ourselves up to its gentle demands. I for one love worshiping somewhat as my ancestors did, and as saints for centuries did. The very word "religion" is from the Latin "religio", meaning to reconnect. We reconnect to our shared spiritual past, present, and future in part through traditions, the greatest (for me) being the Mass or Liturgy.
@lichtbroeder I went to a Tridentine mass and almost fell asleep. I like the new mass but it should have more Latin in it and be sung. I go to a Eastern Catholic Church now and every part of the Liturgy is sung including the readings.
@oakking1 I like the Tridentine for many reasons myself, but for one, main reason: priest and people face the altar together, with the priest acting AS a priest. He turns to the people, then to the altar, acting as mediator and intercessor in a liturgical context, which is what a priest does. He isn't just a "presider" or a glorified layman. Any Mass in my experience, can be said in ways that put people to sleep, but ultimately it isn't entertainment, though it should keep us engaged.
@lichtbroeder I understand the mind set and that is why I like the Byzantine Rite. The priest and the people face the altar together. The difference is with all the Litanies and sung prayers the people are more engaged and you feel like you are participating in the prayers with the priest instead of just watching him. You are constantly bowing, crossing yourself, or responding to prayers. It is hard not to be engaged in that liturgy.
@oakking1 I have seen the new Mass said exactly as you describe, and it was reverent and had a sense of historical continuity. It can be done. Sadly, many so called progressive parishes equate tradition with old fashioned, or with rigid social agendas. Whether Mass is said with the Music of Mozart, in baroque splendor in Vienna, or in the quiet of a simple monastery chapel in Arizona, a sense of tradition reconnects us to each other and God.
I too was impressed with the use of incense @ this LCMS service. I was raised LCMS and in that parish it would have been considered too Catholic. (note large C not small c) I an currently ELCA and here our Pastor does incorporate things like kissing the altar during sections of the litturgy. I guess the bottom line is you due what the congregation is comfortable with as allowed by the synod.
Dear JA, LCMS Lutherans believe Christians are defined as people who hold to the three Creeds and we will all see each other in heaven.
Incense has been used as part of the worship service as far back as the time of Aaron and was always in use in Christianity until some Protestant branches rejected it during the Reformation.
The main difference between the LCMS and WELS would be strict enforcement of “closed Communion” for WELS.
Interesting to see a Lutheran church use incense. Catholics, Orthodox, and some Anglicans do, I've *never* seen that in Lutheranism (most Protestants write off incense and ritual as "Pagan", lol). Incense aside, I've heard many rumors that LCMS thinks they're the only ones going to heaven. And I'm in Minnesota, where Lutherans of various denominations are plentiful. Is that true? And how are you different from WELS? Thanks for any answers.
@jajohnson7809 The LCMS certainly does NOT teach that they're the only ones going to heaven! It teaches that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. It does consider that some denominations have serious theological errors that hinder rather than help their adherents to find salvation through faith - but LCMS Christians thoroughly expect to find members of the whole church catholic in heaven.
@jajohnson7809 Greetings pastor! It seems to me WELS do not use the proper liturgical vestments and it is not allowed to save the consecrated host for adoration and later consumption.
@davidmoseley1988 The use of incense in Worship is an ancient Christian practice and would have been used by Christ in the temple.. The psalms say 'let our prayers acend to you as incense.' Tradionally incense was used to welcome important people to your home to cleanse them from the smells of the streets. In worship we greet our Lord with incense as a sign of respect and devotion to him. We use the full beauty of all our senses -( inc smell) to Praise the Almighty Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I think, is very respected the faith of the people of this church. The liturgy in this regard as genuine worship is very valid. The only differentiation that should be done is between liturgy and music. A lot of people does not reach the liturgy as the music is not a reflection of today. Anyway, there's a church for every kind of audience. Genuine liturgy is one that is authentic, real and can connect the real world in which I live with God in a sincere way. Blessings
Where I live the local LCMS has no liturgical tradition whatsoever, nor even an altar. The eucharist is celebrated by the pastor in street clothes and he wishes to be called "The preacher man." It is pretty horrid. The canon of the eucharist is done with the congregation seated.
I'd find a new LCMS and let "the preacher man" know why---- on my way out. I'm a Lutheran convert from the Catholic church. I would to return back to the Catholic church before I would sit through the canon of the Eucharist.
@schmarcie No, I simply, and quietly left. I had knelt during the canon and for the final blessing he looked at me and said, "WE SIT FOR THE BLESSING!" I live in a very rural area, the nearest LCMS is almost one hundred miles from where I live, and it is really not too much better. I miss the midwest!
God bless you, Kevin! Are you able to at least listen to the Lutheran Hour on the radio? The Lutheran Hour Ministry website has daily devotionals. You may also request 'Portals of Prayer' through Concordia publishing House. I love to read them. I also have "Pastor Lassman's Adult Information Class Introduction [Lutheran]" in my you tube favorite list. He's a great instructor. Stay strong in the faith, Kevin.
Thank you for posting this. The liturgy is rich and beautiful. I am a member of a liturgical, confessing LCMS congregation, but, believe it or not, I graduated from Rhema in Broken Arrow, OK 25 years ago. Thank God that he delivered me.
@ambrosiustranquillus This is the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. My church is very similar to this, as well as many other churches within the Missouri Synod.
Unfortunately, so many Lutheran churches have not retained most of our traditions and liturgy (especially ELCA who has also departed from our doctrine). It's always nice to see those that do.
The Liturgy is a type of safety net that covers lot on Absolution, God's Grace, the promise of Salvation, that these come to us through the Divine Service. And that is a good thing!
As an aside note: our LCMS church is pretty small, we have stuck with The Lutheran Hymnal (1941). Many of our visitors that are old enough to know the TLH comment on how much they enjoy hearing it again.
You think this is cool? Check out the traditional (pre-1970) Catholic Mass. Or the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in the Eastern Churches.
MeanEyedCats 3 months ago
Just for the record Catholics do not pray to Mary. We ask her to pray for us just as we ask the saints in heaven to pray for us. They are the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews and the people in heaven shouting Holy described in revelation. I get frustrated when Catholic Doctrine is misunderstood. Look at the Orthodox reverence of Mary they and the Catholics are the earliest forms of Christianity that should say something. Yes some devotions got off track but that does not change the truth.
oakking1 4 months ago
The liturgy used in most Lutheran churches today is anything but ancient. The music is modernistic in style, the words are gender-neutral whenever possible, and in the 1970s the Lutherans threw out a liturgical heritage dating back (In English at least) to the sixteenth century. One only has to sing the tune "this is the Feast" to get an idea of the banal modernistic music used. Modernist phrases, such as "hymn of all creation" (from Tielhard de Chardin, not Scripture) are also included.
thomasjefferson6 4 months ago
How is burning incense to a crucifix not considered idolatry from the Lutheran perspective?
MrVictornotvictim 4 months ago
@MrVictornotvictim Idolatry? Its symbolic. Nothing wrong with symbols to show our love for Christ. Why would you even say this? Its what is in the heart and soul that counts. Should we not wear robes? Should we not show any symbols in our churches? I think you're picking at something that is not there.
Marksnotebook 4 months ago
Why was the liturgy rejected by Lutherans for a long time and just in the past few years being used on a regular basis? Why is the communion not reserved? Someone once said if you want to know what someone believes, watch how they treat the objects of their faith.
oakking1 4 months ago
@oakking1 It never was rejected in the LCMS...we've always had liturgy. Communion in Lutheran Churches IS the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ onces the minister blesses it. WE believe we are partaking in Jesus body and blood as was done in the bible when Jesus said..Take eat, this is my body and blood which is shed for you for the remission of your sins. How much closer to God can a church get than this? WE reject symbolism of wine and bread as its more than symbolism...ITS the real deal!
Marksnotebook 4 months ago
@Marksnotebook Then why is it not reserved. The Patristic Fathers believed in reserving the Sacrament.
oakking1 4 months ago
@oakking1 What are you talking about? Explain yourself. What is bugging you?
Marksnotebook 4 months ago
@oakking1 Nothing is bugging me just an observation. Orthodox and Catholics have always reserved the species in the tabernacle for prayer and taking communion to the sick. Only recently I have started to see tabernacles in som ELCA Churches. But reservation of the Sacrament took place early on in the time of the Patristic writers after the Apostles.
oakking1 4 months ago
Is this a Mass????
ministercreek 5 months ago
@ministercreek NO...Lutherans don't do masses. Only Catholics do mass. WE do not pray to the Virgin Mary. WE reject purgatory. WE believe we are justified by our faith through Christ our Lord and only by the holy spirit can we enter the Kingdom of heaven.
Marksnotebook 4 months ago
Comment removed
morgnt56 1 month ago
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@Marksnotebook In the Book of Concord, Article XXIV ("Of the Mass"): "Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. We do not abolish the Mass but religiously keep and defend it... we keep the traditional liturgical form... In our churches Mass is celebrated every Sunday and on other holy days, when the sacrament is offered to those who wish for it after they have been examined and absolved".
morgnt56 1 month ago
R u loving the ancient? Attend one Tridentine Mass and you'll see antiquity dating back to 5th century...
cunjoz 9 months ago
Liturgy, though shaped in part by us, is as much a gift from God to us as it is a gift from us to God. It's a vehicle both of grace and to grace, when we give ourselves up to its gentle demands. I for one love worshiping somewhat as my ancestors did, and as saints for centuries did. The very word "religion" is from the Latin "religio", meaning to reconnect. We reconnect to our shared spiritual past, present, and future in part through traditions, the greatest (for me) being the Mass or Liturgy.
lichtbroeder 11 months ago
@lichtbroeder I went to a Tridentine mass and almost fell asleep. I like the new mass but it should have more Latin in it and be sung. I go to a Eastern Catholic Church now and every part of the Liturgy is sung including the readings.
oakking1 4 months ago
@oakking1 I like the Tridentine for many reasons myself, but for one, main reason: priest and people face the altar together, with the priest acting AS a priest. He turns to the people, then to the altar, acting as mediator and intercessor in a liturgical context, which is what a priest does. He isn't just a "presider" or a glorified layman. Any Mass in my experience, can be said in ways that put people to sleep, but ultimately it isn't entertainment, though it should keep us engaged.
lichtbroeder 4 months ago
@lichtbroeder I understand the mind set and that is why I like the Byzantine Rite. The priest and the people face the altar together. The difference is with all the Litanies and sung prayers the people are more engaged and you feel like you are participating in the prayers with the priest instead of just watching him. You are constantly bowing, crossing yourself, or responding to prayers. It is hard not to be engaged in that liturgy.
oakking1 4 months ago
@oakking1 I have seen the new Mass said exactly as you describe, and it was reverent and had a sense of historical continuity. It can be done. Sadly, many so called progressive parishes equate tradition with old fashioned, or with rigid social agendas. Whether Mass is said with the Music of Mozart, in baroque splendor in Vienna, or in the quiet of a simple monastery chapel in Arizona, a sense of tradition reconnects us to each other and God.
lichtbroeder 4 months ago
I too was impressed with the use of incense @ this LCMS service. I was raised LCMS and in that parish it would have been considered too Catholic. (note large C not small c) I an currently ELCA and here our Pastor does incorporate things like kissing the altar during sections of the litturgy. I guess the bottom line is you due what the congregation is comfortable with as allowed by the synod.
gramps2matt 1 year ago
Did Luther abolish the use of incense?
celtusguy 1 year ago
@celtusguy No he did not and it may be used in the Lutheran mass.
karpov89 1 year ago
Dear JA, LCMS Lutherans believe Christians are defined as people who hold to the three Creeds and we will all see each other in heaven.
Incense has been used as part of the worship service as far back as the time of Aaron and was always in use in Christianity until some Protestant branches rejected it during the Reformation.
The main difference between the LCMS and WELS would be strict enforcement of “closed Communion” for WELS.
Wishing you a blessed Advent season,
Pastor Tiews, Grace Tulsa
tiewsc 1 year ago
Interesting to see a Lutheran church use incense. Catholics, Orthodox, and some Anglicans do, I've *never* seen that in Lutheranism (most Protestants write off incense and ritual as "Pagan", lol). Incense aside, I've heard many rumors that LCMS thinks they're the only ones going to heaven. And I'm in Minnesota, where Lutherans of various denominations are plentiful. Is that true? And how are you different from WELS? Thanks for any answers.
jajohnson7809 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jajohnson7809 The LCMS certainly does NOT teach that they're the only ones going to heaven! It teaches that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. It does consider that some denominations have serious theological errors that hinder rather than help their adherents to find salvation through faith - but LCMS Christians thoroughly expect to find members of the whole church catholic in heaven.
739richard 1 year ago
@jajohnson7809 Greetings pastor! It seems to me WELS do not use the proper liturgical vestments and it is not allowed to save the consecrated host for adoration and later consumption.
karpov89 1 year ago
ad orientem is much better than vesus populum! your mass is even more catholic than some catholic masses.
henrikhankhagnell 1 year ago
I havent seen a Lutheran Church use incense before, and my experience has been with very liturgical WELs and, LCMS. What is the meaning behind it?
davidmoseley1988 1 year ago
@davidmoseley1988 The use of incense in Worship is an ancient Christian practice and would have been used by Christ in the temple.. The psalms say 'let our prayers acend to you as incense.' Tradionally incense was used to welcome important people to your home to cleanse them from the smells of the streets. In worship we greet our Lord with incense as a sign of respect and devotion to him. We use the full beauty of all our senses -( inc smell) to Praise the Almighty Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
739richard 1 year ago
I think, is very respected the faith of the people of this church. The liturgy in this regard as genuine worship is very valid. The only differentiation that should be done is between liturgy and music. A lot of people does not reach the liturgy as the music is not a reflection of today. Anyway, there's a church for every kind of audience. Genuine liturgy is one that is authentic, real and can connect the real world in which I live with God in a sincere way. Blessings
ekklemail 1 year ago
Very, very, great!
This is really Lutheran church in the tradition of the one holy catholic and apostolic church! Many greetings from High Church Lutherans in Germany!
PfaelzerOrganist 1 year ago
Beautiful Lutheran Mass
ccarlosincali 1 year ago
Where I live the local LCMS has no liturgical tradition whatsoever, nor even an altar. The eucharist is celebrated by the pastor in street clothes and he wishes to be called "The preacher man." It is pretty horrid. The canon of the eucharist is done with the congregation seated.
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581
I'd find a new LCMS and let "the preacher man" know why---- on my way out. I'm a Lutheran convert from the Catholic church. I would to return back to the Catholic church before I would sit through the canon of the Eucharist.
Lord have mercy.
Peace be with you.
schmarcie 1 year ago
@schmarcie No, I simply, and quietly left. I had knelt during the canon and for the final blessing he looked at me and said, "WE SIT FOR THE BLESSING!" I live in a very rural area, the nearest LCMS is almost one hundred miles from where I live, and it is really not too much better. I miss the midwest!
Kevin41581 1 year ago
@Kevin41581
God bless you, Kevin! Are you able to at least listen to the Lutheran Hour on the radio? The Lutheran Hour Ministry website has daily devotionals. You may also request 'Portals of Prayer' through Concordia publishing House. I love to read them. I also have "Pastor Lassman's Adult Information Class Introduction [Lutheran]" in my you tube favorite list. He's a great instructor. Stay strong in the faith, Kevin.
Peace be with you,
marcie
schmarcie 1 year ago
Thank you for posting this. The liturgy is rich and beautiful. I am a member of a liturgical, confessing LCMS congregation, but, believe it or not, I graduated from Rhema in Broken Arrow, OK 25 years ago. Thank God that he delivered me.
stormfront219 1 year ago
Comment removed
ambrosiustranquillus 1 year ago
@ambrosiustranquillus Check out my videos. The largest Lutheran body of the world, Church of Sweden, does have the most high church liturgy.
karpov89 1 year ago
@ambrosiustranquillus This is the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. My church is very similar to this, as well as many other churches within the Missouri Synod.
stpaulphillip 1 year ago
Unfortunately, so many Lutheran churches have not retained most of our traditions and liturgy (especially ELCA who has also departed from our doctrine). It's always nice to see those that do.
DrewOchsner 2 years ago
Nice vid! I like the cut of your church's jib! It's too bad not all "Lutherans" embody this theology and praxis. Very well done!
geojibby 2 years ago
Beautiful church and great insight on Lutheran liturgy. Being born and raised ELCA, I really enjoyed their insight.
StockburnDeputy 2 years ago
Very nice.
stpaulphillip 2 years ago
This awesome! Thank you for posting this.
gbmtmas 2 years ago 3
The Liturgy is a type of safety net that covers lot on Absolution, God's Grace, the promise of Salvation, that these come to us through the Divine Service. And that is a good thing!
As an aside note: our LCMS church is pretty small, we have stuck with The Lutheran Hymnal (1941). Many of our visitors that are old enough to know the TLH comment on how much they enjoy hearing it again.
john91722 2 years ago 3
@john91722 Where is your church? I've been looking for a TLH to visit! I haven't been in that divine service for 30 years.
littlebluerambler 1 year ago
@littlebluerambler Trinity Lutheran Church LCMS 16050 East San Bernardino Road in Covina, CA 91722
john91722 1 year ago
This is true lutheran liturgy! Christianus mihi nomen est, Catholicus cognomen.
karpov89 2 years ago