do you believe that angels although apirit become human take ex. of angel gabriel giving message to virgin mary the angels who sodomized with beautiful women on earththey are spirit but they become human in fact there are 2 bodies human body or terestial body and heavenly body so why question satans veiw
Father, thank you for such bold men you've lifted up with wisdom and power through the Holy Spirit that defend, proclaim, and explain faith in you and your Son. Continue Lord Almighty to fill and use your servant, that many come to Jesus through the anointing and ministry you've given him. You're awesome bro, keep persevering. Blessings!
you should of noticed that trinitarians added the word THE holy spirit and yes the bible never says THE holy spirit the holy spirit can be POURED OUT CAN A PERSON BE POURED OUT? you can be FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRIT SO A PERSON CAN GET INSIDE YOU? IT WAS DESCRIBED AS “rushing stiff breeze,” SO A STIFF BREEZE CAN GET INTO YOUR BODY? Its gets more silly as you go on Holy spirit is gods active force he can control anything without having to be there. by using his force or spirit
@judgerutherford ""When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there." (Matt 12:43-45)
Are not demons and Satan persons who can fill a person and get inside them?
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was thus: His mother, Mary, that is, having been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit
so the third person of the trinity made mary pregnant
so that means theat god is not the father of jesus but the third peron of the trinity is.
There are two trees. Trees of living forever, and another that God commands NOT to eat. If they do not eat of Gods tree of Good and Evil then they would continue to have immortality, which means God intended them to live forever. Only when they decided to go their own way by choosing for themselves what is right and wrong did they die and were they expulsed and commanded NOT to eat of the Tree of life which is what gives them immortality.
If Adam and Eve were created without being sinless, then God creates sinful beings. If God creates beings with sin, and we are created in his image, then God would would be sinful. Since the Bible says that God is love and is without sin, then God created Adam and Eve to have his image (sinless).
It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.
@timothyqkilgore Well, wisdom is Christ Jesus (1 Cor 1:24) and He is our Everlasting Father. (Is 9:6) Also, in many places, God has spoken through people. Does this mean that God is just being personified, too?
@timothyqkilgore I forgot to include in my original response that Jn 4:24 and 2 Cor 3:17 says that God is Spirit. Does this mean He is just being personified? If He's a spirit and spirits are not people, then God can't be a person, right? Or, is this an exception?
spirit being holy because it's from God. But spirit means PNEUMA (4151) in Greek. Meaning breath, like the wind, invisible and immaterial. I'm working quickly, will spend more time later and perfectly willing to discuss it with you on an adult level. I don't think even if it were preceded by an indefinite article it would make any difference. when did the Holy Spirit appear in bodily form to anyone in heaven or earth? lets put the article aside for a minute and analyze the actually scriptures
very quickly, must go to work, i found only one scripture (Acts 1:16) that say the holy spirit spoke by david's mouth. can we establish which scriptures you are referring to? I didn't hear any in your video. even at this early stage this cannot mean that a person was inside david and spoke, but david being anointed could speak by means of god's active force. i understand what you are driving at. But the bible says hundreds of times that the devil is a person and never says that about the HS
I'm going to go get my Vines Dictionary and see what it says. Did you even bother to check out the original language? Many, many english words in the bible are exactly the same, but have different shades of meaning. I will check back with you and give you my analysis of my research.
nice twisting of scripture. the holy spirit has never appeared as a person, but satan has, even appearing before jehovah himself and issuing a challenge of his way of ruling. quite different than the scriptures that say the holy spirit speaks. personally i would look directly at the original language of which the word was used. often words like "speak" often mean different things. It does not automatically make their argument untrue, even though they decided to use it in the article.
@andyandyband No... I am saying that if Jws apply the same reasoning as to WHY they believe Satan is a person and not a force then they have no reason to reject the Holy Spirit as a person as well.
i just told 2 bible fuckers off...charles taze russell 33rd degree freemason...33rd degree freemasons and higher worship a deity called Jahbulon. Well its a demonic entity. So fuck the bible movement.
Jesus breathed the holy spirit on others. It is God's spirit and retains characteristics or the raphesh of Yahweh. This is the same spirit that the prophets used to be inspired and the holy spirit spoke THROUGH them. As for Satan, that would mean Jesus was speaking to himself and that would make him seem deluded. If Satan is the flesh, then what tempted Adam and Eve? They were not yet flesh, but were still immortal. Revelations explains to us to the snake in the Garden was.
@sarevor Adam and Eve were always flesh. (Gen 3:19) They were never immortal. They were kicked out the garden so they won't eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and live forever. There is not one verse that states nor indicates in any way that their substance was transformed from spiritual to physical.
@rpierre777 The nature of reality had shifted after Adam and Eve's act if faithlessness: "And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” This verse seems to be implying that life was not this difficult beforehand. Also, this makes it difficult for our understanding of Jesus' sacrifice.
@sarevor Just because God cursed the ground so that Adam would not have it easy does not imply a change in his physical nature. (Gen 3:17) Yes, God changed the comfort level, or the nature of reality, of Adam and Eve, but not the chemical makeup of their bodies.
@rpierre777 Being flesh alone does not imply mortality. God was upset at what had happened and God set out to correct what had happened. It pretty much describes everything following the event until the present day and the future when Jesus returns. Also, please consider the vision of the prophets where a child is walking with the beasts of the field.
@sarevor If they had immortality, there would be no need for them to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever. (Gen 3:22-24) That vision does not indicate a change in Adam and Eve's physical nature in any way. That let's us know of the change in the way of the world around us in all respects, but not our own bodies.
@rpierre777 Adam and Eve underwent spiritual death by choosing for themselves what is good and bad. Because they chose separation from God, in which Paul describes God as what we move in and gives our being, God had given them ultimate separation: Eternal nonexistence.
@sarevor God's punishment in no way signifies that without the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever. They needed to eat from that tree to live. That's why they were casted out. Had they stayed, they would have eaten and lived forever. It was the Tree of Life (Jesus-spiritually) that was keeping them alive.
@sarevor It is not that God wanted them to fail, He knows the weakness of man and that we are susceptible to temptation. If you notice, physical death as punishment for sins is a penalty upon man. Satan doesn't grow old and die. He was created outside of time. Time if for us. That is why man dies as time passes, but satan and his angels never age nor die from old age. The physical death of man came from expulsion from the garden. The spiritual death came with the curses imposed.
@rpierre777 Just because we are susceptible to temptation does not mean that temptation cannot be avoided. The heart of this argument is what the tree represented. If God did not want us to fail, then it would follow that God had originally planned to give man immortality and to live with God in the garden forever. This makes more sense to me than and fits more with a God that gives love freely, and unconditionally, while at the same time giving us a choice because love gives choices.
@sarevor I never said temptation cannot be avoided. God has always planned to give mankind immortality. I agree with that 100%. However, there never was a change in plan. Through Christ alone can we get was God has always planned. In order for God to plan to give us something means He didn't already give it to us-hence the tree. The tree and its fruit do have a figurative aspect, but, it was a literal tree with literal fruit. The account of Adam and Eve isn't part real and part fiction...
@rpierre777 It was a literal tree and literal fruit, but the fruit itself had no power. The power behind it was the choice. There was a choice, "Is the morality that God provides to us [do not touch from this tree] the morality that we want to keep or reject?" They chose to reject God's morality otherwise they would not have picked from the tree. There are some Christians that believe that Jesus is crucial but that bringing in Jesus was not needed, but only needed to correct the problem.
@sarevor If it had no power, then the accound is part real and part fiction. I'm not saying the power is in the fruit. It's just like Jesus using mud to give sight to the blind. The healing power was from God through the mud-the same as the fruit. There are those who say, "That's not true. The Bible is not being completely honest." (I am stopping short of saying they are calling it a lie.) I do understand the question posed, however, that does not take away the written account. (continued...)
@sarevor As far as Jesus not being needed, it is written, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Jn 14:6) Was Jesus lying? Paul said in 1 Cor 15:22 that it is through Christ we are made alive. Was he lying? Also, God "reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ". (2 Cor 5:18) There was no other way. Jesus said, "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (Jn 5:40) Jesus was saying plainly that you NEED to come to Him to have life. Life comes from the Father through the Son unto us....
@sarevor ....There is no other way to gain life. Jesus said, "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (Jn 3:18) So, if you don't have Christ, you stand condemned-period. That is not "crucial", that is necessary.
@rpierre777 " Through Christ alone can we get was God has always planned." God had only planned that after the 'fall'. "15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [a] and hers; he will crush [b] your head, and you will strike his heel."
@rpierre777 "That wasn't God making a plan. That was God declaring His plan." I don't see a difference. A God that knows everything and knows what we will do if he brings in certain variables, is nothing other than a trap. A God that knows everything but the choices we end up deciding to make is different from knowing that the zeigeist that occupies Kings will lead to certain behaviors. Satan does afterall rule this world.
@sarevor There is a difference. It is written in 1 Pe 1:20:
"God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days." (NLT)
"It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you." (Amplified)
"You were bought with blood that is worth much. It is like the blood of a sheep that is perfect with nothing wrong in its body. You were bought with the blood of Christ. Before the world was made God chose Christ to do it, and Christ came at the end of time for your sake. It is through Christ that you believe in God. God raised Christ from death and made him great. And that is why you are able to believe and hope in God. " (1 Pe 1:19-21, Worldwide English)
"God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did not do it because of the good things we have done. He did it because he himself PLANNED to do it, and wanted to do it. That was the blessing he gave us in Christ Jesus. He had this plan BEFORE he made the world." 2 Tim 1:9)
@sarevor Now, notice I have only quoted verses from different translations. I have not given a speech or some teaching I "heard", but I quoted scripture. Please do not say that Peter and Paul don't know what they are talking about.
There is no trap in God.I don't see how you can include zeigeist in this conversation. To limit God to just being a "spirit of the time/age" is demeaning to Him to say the least.
Satan rules this world because people worships him and he was given it-irrelevant.
@rpierre777 I have quoted scriptures as well, and I never insinuated that Paul and Peter don't know what they are talking about, only that they aren't saying what you think they are.
@sarevor I can only go by what they said. I don't agree that they spoke allegorical statements that need to be interpreted. What happens is people don't agree with what they said and try to find some other explaination for what was meant. Or, they don't look at the verses before and after a verse to understand that they verse is saying exactly what it's saying.
@sarevor If if was, it would then be equivalent to the stories of mythology. But, since these are real people and it was a real situation, it was a real tree that bears fruit which gave life everlasting to those who ate of it. Adam and Eve were kicked out before they could eat of it. Again, you cannot receive something you already have. Also, it wasn't meant for them to live in the garden forever. That's why God wanted them to subdue/replenish the earth. They were to expand the garden.
@rpierre777 Mankind was sinless before they chose to be separated from God. Separation from God is a sin and sin leads to death. Both Satan and mankind were immortals. Time does not necessitate destruction. A change in DNA winding down would have this result. It is arguable that if certain changes were made to our DNA then we would live forever. Man expulsion from the Garden was the result of their choice and their choice lead to death. Gods warning was that they would die.
@sarevor I agree. Mankind was sinless before the fall. But, being sinless does not constitute immortality. Adam and Eve weren't immortal. There is nothing in the Bible that eludes to this at all. I know what scientist say about our bodies, but, the neccessary changes for immortality is outside of how God designed us. That's why Paul said we shall be changed to be like Him when He comes back-even Paul acknowledges he doesn't know what that would be like. If Adam and Eve's physical nature changed
@rpierre777 Death had only entered into the world when Adam and Eve rejected God. This doesn't not contradict what Paul is saying and does not suggest what you believe it does. "That we will be changed to be just like Him". Exactly, so how can you say that "Paul acknowledges he doesn't know what that would be like"?
@sarevor Spiritual death entered into the world due to the fall. Physical death was emminant unless they ate from the Tree of Life. The same way Jesus said, "he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." (6:58) So, if you don't eat, you die. As far as Paul, I meant John. He said, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 Jn 3:2)
@rpierre777 Again, that verse is saying that we do know how we will be like, since we will "be like he is". Jesus is a spirit being in his current form. So if we are to be like him, then we will also be spirit. Bread of life is Gods word and his morality. We lost that by choosing not to eat of the bread in the garden, sort of speak.
@sarevor Yes, we will have spiritual bodies, but, what exactly does that mean-we don't know. Our bodies will be immortal, pure, incorruptible, glorious, powerful, etc. But, what will it's appearance be? We do not know. Can we see through it? That is what is not revealed.
True, the Bread of Life is God's Word. It's not His morality-that's righteousness. This bread is Jesus Himself (Jn 6:35, 48, 51) and has always been such. Adam and Eve didn't refuse to eat, they were prohibited by God.
@rpierre777 Yeah man, but they were only prohibited AFTER they took of the fruit God commanded them not to eat. Otherwise, this makes zero sense to me, tbh.
So it is written: "The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven."
It is written that the bodies Adam and Eve had was the same as ours. Our bodies...
@rpierre777 Since all men are descendent's of Adam, we inherit original sin and also death. That verse is commenting on how Jesus replaces Adam, so that we will no longer be "Sons of men" but "Sons of God".
@sarevor Right, but the following verses let us know what type of bodies they had as it relates to what type of bodies we are waiting for. Notice verse 47 says Adam was made from the dust of the earth and that Christ came from heaven. This is talking about their beginnings-not their end.
@rpierre777 They were made of the dust of the ground. God created heaven and EARTH and called it good. Some believe this means matter. We are made out of matter but we were offered eternal life in the material realm.
@sarevor the scriptures would have told us that in some way or the other. It did let us know how Moses' face "changed" or glowed. It let us know how Enoch and Elijah changed. Why not Adam and Eve? Because their nature didn't change. If you look at the entire account of God's punishment, a change in physical nature was not part of the deal. Now, according to Gen 3:22,24, God kicked them out of the garden so they wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life. That's what's written. Anything else is a lie.
@rpierre777 Exactly, they were eating from the tree of life before they were kicked out due to their own rejection. This is another way of saying that God has taken away their immortality.
@sarevor RIght. Their "immortality" was due to eating of the Tree of Life. They didn't have life in and of themselves. In the same way, we have "immorality" when we partake of the Tree of Life or eat of the manna from heaven.
@sarevor I never said the Tree of Life was also the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was two separate trees. They had free access to the Tree of Life (before the fall), but were restricted against the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
@rpierre777 A while ago you said that the Tree of Life is what gave them immortality, and once they stopped consuming of it, it lead to their death. Now you're saying that they're two separate trees which leads me to believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to live eternally. Their expulsion was a result of taking of the other tree, the knowledge of good and evil. I really recommend watching: watch?v=7y3vci-jXUY it really helped me understand Genesis. Genesis sets the stage for Christian theolog
@sarevor I meant, it seemed like you were saying that they were of the same tree, and consuming it is what gave them immortality. In other words, they were of the same tree and that eating of it is what caused death.
@sarevor Death came through the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Life came through the Tree of Life. Once Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Good and Evil, God did not allow them to receive life through the physical tree. They had to eat of the spiritual tree-Jesus.
@sarevor Eternal life "flowed" through the Tree of Life. Once they stopped eating it, their bodies began dying. Yes, God wanted them to live eternally, but He didn't make them that way. I will check out the video and let you know what I think.
@sarevor The Tree of Life in the garden providing eternal life is equivalent to the sacrifices under the law of Moses providing forgiveness. It is temporal. Only through Jesus is it eternal.
@sarevor "Man expulsion from the Garden was the result of their choice and their choice lead to death." I know that's what you have been taught, but that's not what Gen 3:22-24 says. It was an end result of it, but not a direct result. The expulsion was to keep them from eating of the Tree of Life; hence, no eternal life.
@rpierre777 Not to sound rude, but exactly how do you know what I have been taught? I was raised a Catholic, became an atheist, then became a Hindu/New Ager, then I studied the Bible on my own and that's how I personally understand scripture. If you think that I am a JW then you're wrong. I agree with many things they have said but not all of it.
@sarevor Some may argue that God didn't know and He hoped for the best. Well, that doesn't really make sense. To me, if God didn't want them to be tempted or tested by it, why include it with there environment? This is shown when God commanded the Israelites to remove the other nations from the Promise Land, and to not marry them. That way, they won't be tempted to follow their gods. Plus, I believe God knows everything.
@rpierre777 I don't believe that God knows everything, otherwise our free will would be in jeopardy. It makes sense to me that God allowed the tree there to allow a choice between choosing between what God had offered or not choosing it. God was protecting Israel as a way to bring us back to what we once had but lost. The Jews would act as tutors leading to Christianity and would be the birthplace of the Messiah.
@sarevor Name one thing that God does not know? And, if someone knows it, but God doesn't, is that person greater than God seeing they know more than Him? God did allow the tree to be there for a choice. That doesn't mean He is ignorant of things. Yes, He was protecting Israel, but that doesn't mean He is ignorant of things, either.
@rpierre777 So God sent in that tree, knowing we would choose to disobey, and also knowing the pain and suffering that would result from such a choice. We can't have free will if he knows what we will decide. Certainly God knows everything, but the things that he does not know is the choices we will make. Although, he does know the overall decisions that we do make and what those consequences are.
@sarevor God knows what choices we will make. That doesn't take away free will. The only thing that takes away free will is when someone else makes you do things. Just like God told Abraham about the hardships of Israel in Egypt. God told Abram, "Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;" (Gen 15:13) This was before Isaac was born. Was God guessing?...
@sarevor ...How did He come to the idea that Pharoah would enslave Abraham's seed? How could God attest to amount of time they would be in slavery? What about Judas? How did God know that it would be "a friend" of Jesus that betrayed Him? (Ps 41:9) Jesus said, "All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad." (Matt 26:31) How did God know this? (Zech 13:7)
TRUTHINTHEBIBLE..... RUBBISH.......The JWs want YOU to read their Watchtower magazine....... so THEY can tell you what parts of the Bible they want you to read.....WHY ?.....because they have re-written their Bible and, this comes from their Brooklyn Head Office, they want to control believers so that they do not read the entire Bible.....which WILL show the JWs FALSE TEACHINGS UP through what they read............CULT
Again21cc21 has raised a question that he cannot fully defend. Keep thinking yourself a great thinker. I ask," Why do you only do exposes of JW's? Aren't there easier targets?"
@ff0840 Will you send the scriptures that shows every one of the thousand upon thousand of angels conversing with others? If not, then I guess they are actual beings, either. Only the ones that actually have speaking parts in the bible.
I'm beginning to think that the JW are tryna convince people that there is more than one God. When I say that I mean that they must believe in Jehovah God and Christ god... this we know is polytheism.. and not a correct representation of the Godhead. I will pray for the JW because you have been decieved by the WTC and its not your fault.
Jesus Himself claimed to be God and the Messiah. In John 10:30 he says "The Father and I are one" John 5:18 says "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus knew what He was claiming when He called God His Father, so did the Jews, but for some reason the WTS cant seem to decipher the meaning with all their "prophets"
Simple! One means One! He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. They are one entity. He is not the Father. The Father is not the Son. But both are God. Two pesonalities of the Godhead. How can a man, or an angel bridge the gap between man and God? They Can't! It has to be somone who is truly Man and Truly God. Jesus, the one Who created the Heaven and Earth (Gen 1:1)
I find it extremely interesting, that the same tritheist/polytheist trinitarians who try to make holy spirit into a PERSON, also try to make Jesus into GOD ALMIGHTY!!! Seems their ignorance of Scripture is REALLY SHOWING!!
The Holy Spirit as a person is the fabrication of a sitting Roman governments influence on Christianity (Nicea) an apostasy foretold by Jesus himself.
Ridiculous comparison. the bible clearly portrays Satan as a person (spirit,angel) there is NO dispute of that fact. Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
You're right JAKE. That WT november-issue is indeed absolutely fantastic, food for thought and probably food for even more video's from 21crosscheck21. I looooove freedom of speech !
Then Jehovah said to Satan: Where do you come from? At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it. 8 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: Have you set your heart upon my servant Job.
So God has conversations with His arch Opposer and yet never has a conversation with his equal counterpart the Holy Spirit?....God has conversations with Christ....No?...Why does God not have conversations with the Holy Spirit?
Do trinitarians, when they worship their false idol cross, do they go "spectacle, testicles, wallet and watch" [see my favorite videos]---just like their false religious parents, catholicism???
@JAKEV25 The recorded conversation btw God and Satan was for our benefit to understand the tests and trials fo Satan. Also, to show the limitations of Satan. It gives the exhausted meaning behind this verse: "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him." (Isa 59:19)
@rpierre777 No this is what your church tells you...But the bible teaches a completely different story about how Jesus was tempted with Evil by Satan...Of course if you believe Jesus to be God Almighty you must make excuses for this conversation in the bible.
@JAKEV25 No church taught me this. It is written, "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13) When Satan come to tempt you, God limits him on what he can do so that you can be able to bear it. It was the same way with Job. God didn't change how He deals with Satan when it comes to tempting us verses Job.
@rpierre777 "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13) " Good verse, and it highlights what I have been trying to say. God "makes a way to escape". If God is what caused us to die in the Garden of Eden and applied no escape then it wasn't Satan that caused their downfall it was God. But that won't be true if God didn't plan on our death.
@sarevor If "the tree of life" was the same tree as "the tree of the knowledge" then there was absolutely no way to escape death. Either don't eat of the tree and die, or eat or the tree and die anyway.
@sarevor If we were going to die no matter what, and God had it in his plan for us to die, then Satan was a non factor in all of this since he knows all of our ways. If this is true, then God planned no escape, but if we interpret it in the way that God never intended any of this to happen, then God DOES allow for escape and God does give love freely.
@rpierre777 If Adam and Eve were sinless and the "wages for sin is death" then Adam and Eve were sinless before partaking of the fruit. Since they were sinless, they would also be immortal. If their immortality rested on their need to eat of the Tree of Life but eating of that "Tree of Life" caused sin then eating of the Tree of Life would cause death. It would cause death because sin leads to death. If all of this is true, then God caused sin and also death. But only if it is the same tree
Has the HS ever been dipicted as a person the way Satan has; talk with, Jehovah, interacting with with him as a person? The same goes for Jesus. Jesus confronted the PERSON of Satan Matthew 4. Satan "entered into" people because they breath in the hatred and evil that Satan has perpetuated among mankind. Ephesiean 2:1-3. I hope that reasonable truth seekers who read this will see the truth of it and ignore the negative lies about God,Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Satan. The truth is plain.
I did not mean to imply that every early church author held this view, but a significant portion ranging from Justin to Origen to Athanasius.
Regarding those links, there are clear parallels between Proverbs 8:22, 24-25 and Colossians 1:15. Colossians 1:17 is undoubtedly pulled directly from Sirach 1:4, while Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians 1:15 draw from Wisdom 7:26. Too, John's entire prologue is deeply rooted in Wisdom texts. You might consider chapter 4 of my book as space is here limited.
But concerning proverbs 8,Justin, Origen,and Tertullian all believed it referred to Jesus...and they all believed him to be YHWH...uncreated. Did you know that even Athanasius believed it referred to Jesus? The same Athanasius who referred to Ariasnism as "vomit?" Believe me, Athie did NOT believe Jesus to be created; neither did the above men. They believed that it referred to Jesus existing WITHIN the Father...and then the Father begetting him, ie, bring him OUT of him!
Let's read Proverbs 8:22 as a man reading it in say, 500 BC. The man would read it about wisdom, no? Certainly, he wouldn't see any pre-existing Messianic implications, would he? Would that man, then believe there was a time God existed WITHOUT wisdom, and he instead somehow had to create it from scratch? Or would he see it as God possessing wisdom within Himself, and bringing it forth, out of his mouth? So why must it mean that Jesus was created from nothing?
Well it uses the very language of creation... the language is attributed to a person where that same language is used. When it is used for all others it means something, so why wouldn't it mean the same for this one?
The only time the word qanah occurs concerning a person's birth, it's Gen 4:1, where Eve said she has gotten a man from the Lord.
Cain didn't come into existence the moment that Eve gave birth or "produced him" since he was already alive in his mother's womb for at least nine months. This demonstrates that the verb qanah doesn't necessarily refer to creating someone or something from nothing, but can refer to something or someone that already existed and was then brought forth or birthed.
FIrst, in Genesis 14 qanah is used of heaven and earth, which from Genesis 1:1 is created. Second, birth is idiomatic for creation (Psa. 90:2), which creation (including Cain in his birth) did originally come from nothing. In other words, the basis for everything that qanah is used of has its basis in creation ex nihilo. Further, the early translations (LXX, Syriac) render qanah in 8:22 as "created," leaving no doubt as to the ultimate sense.
Creation ex nihilo is the hebrew word Bara; Qanah generally tends to mean posess, or own; Many translations render Gen 14 the posessor of heaver and earth. Again, would Jews in 500 BC believe God created Wisdom ex nihilo? That's ridiculous. There's just not enough gas in the Prov 8:22 tank to prove that Jesus was created ex nihilo.
I was not arguing from the specific Hebrew word, but again, when we compare Gen 1 and 14 we find that bara and qanah can and are used of the same thing, so that qanah is here used is not to the exclusion of bara, and further, the LXX makes it clear that ultimately bara is how God came to qanah this Wisdom. A Jew in 500 BC, I would suggest, wouldn't be sure what to make of this text, but the NT revelation makes it clear.
It's not the same thing, though! God both posesses and has created heavens and earth.
If you hold that this teaches Jesus was created, NT revelation would CONTRADICT it. John 1:3 says that Jesus made EVERYTHING that was made...that disqualifies him from being made!
And yet how did God "acquire" heaven and earth? He created it. And thus my point in that all God acquires he does by creating.
And no, John 1:3 does not contradict this notion. I encourage you to go watch my two part series of videos on the subject, or go to my website and read chapter 3 of my book.
Again, Eve had Cain within her, yet she qanah him after he was born...she brought him forth. He didn't begin to exist when he was born.
Wisdom always existed in God...and so did his word. Lexicons aren't on your side here. Church history is definitely not on your side here. Do you really think it took 300 years until Arius hit the scene for it to dawn on people that Jesus was created? Wouldn't someone had taught it before the 300's if the apostles really taught it?
Yes, but Cain wasn't hanging around in her from all eternity, and Cain was himself a creation. And still you cannot take that very far because God is not a human and he is not the Logos' mother.
Lexicons are entirely on my side on this matter for the LXX expressly uses ektisen. Language can be no more unambiguous. Further, he is "the beginning of his ways," or the first thing God brought into existence.
As for what was taught, you should know the picture wasn't nearly that cut and dry.
Alright ST, to close...I'm not saying the Father is Christ's mother...I'm saying he's his source. The Logos existed in his bosom (Jn 1:18) and then he came forth from it. I'm not saying Cain existed for eternity. I'm saying qanah describes in Gen 14 something that already exists COMING FORTH. THus we need not be dogmatic that it means ex nihilo creation. As for the LXX...it's a translation...an uninspired one at that...and the Jews translating that assuredly did NOT believe...cont
That God created Wisdom out of nothing. The LXX doesn't always vindicate your theology, either; It's translation of Zech 12:10 quotes God as saying, "You will look upon ME who you PIERCED," which is what is also what's in the Hebrew of the Masoretic text, and this is fulfilled in Jn 19:37 when Jesus is LOOKED UPON, PIERCED. The lexicons I speak of define qanah as getting, buying, owning, not creating ex nihilo. There's just not enough gas in the Prov 8:22 tank to A) prove it's Jesus; cont
cont. and B) prove that God created him ex nihilo. But I'm doing this all so you might consider the REAL Jesus-the one who spoke of a day he'd be looked upon pierced as God...and he died, was pierced, and was looked upon. Trusting in a false Jesus will produce a non-existent salvation. And I pray that you will consider the REAL Jesus...not a arian counterfit...and may that Jesus save you. In his name, Amen.
Come on...it's not possible that if Eve qanah (broght forth) a man...who already existed within her...and God qanah (brought forth) Wisdom...that originally existed WITHIN him...is it? Justin thought so. Tertullian did too. Athanasius did. If that's a plausible, and in fact, likely, interp, why must we be dogmatic that it means "creation ex nihilo?"
First, God is Father, not mother, second what existed in God was the attribute of wisdom, yet we're discussing a person. You're going to first have to explain how a person of God existed within another person of God and yet they remained coequal. As in every other case the language used in Proverbs 8 refers to creation, I see no reason for the appeal to special pleading to say here it isn't.
Would you say that the first 7 chapters of Proverbs speaks of Jesus when wisdom is mentioned? Or, is this poetic language? Thank-you in advance for your kind reply.
Wisdom is certainly just an attribute in Proverbs 7, but it is not *actively* personified as in Proverbs 8. The argument is that such active personification is seen because there is one who personifies the attribute of Wisdom, the preexistent Messiah, the Logos. It is therefore important to distinguish between the person Wisdom and the attribute wisdom.
I agree that wisdom in the first 7 chapters of Proverbs is poetic language. It's odd to me that all of a sudden in Chapter 8 it switches to Jesus, after the pattern of poetic language that has been established. It seems like a stretch, no?
[It's odd to me that all of a sudden in Chapter 8 it switches to Jesus, after the pattern of poetic language that has been established.]
A: Right I agree with you. It makes about as much sense as saying that God's spirit is all of a sudden a person just because it is personified a couple of times.
I never thought of the point this video makes, but that is logical!
jamesandchante 3 months ago
do you believe that angels although apirit become human take ex. of angel gabriel giving message to virgin mary the angels who sodomized with beautiful women on earththey are spirit but they become human in fact there are 2 bodies human body or terestial body and heavenly body so why question satans veiw
leonardobaterna1 6 months ago
Father, thank you for such bold men you've lifted up with wisdom and power through the Holy Spirit that defend, proclaim, and explain faith in you and your Son. Continue Lord Almighty to fill and use your servant, that many come to Jesus through the anointing and ministry you've given him. You're awesome bro, keep persevering. Blessings!
OMARSFARID 1 year ago
judgerutherford 1 year ago
@judgerutherford ""When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there." (Matt 12:43-45)
Are not demons and Satan persons who can fill a person and get inside them?
rachelbinto 1 year ago
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was thus: His mother, Mary, that is, having been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit
so the third person of the trinity made mary pregnant
so that means theat god is not the father of jesus but the third peron of the trinity is.
thats ridiculous
judgerutherford 1 year ago
There are two trees. Trees of living forever, and another that God commands NOT to eat. If they do not eat of Gods tree of Good and Evil then they would continue to have immortality, which means God intended them to live forever. Only when they decided to go their own way by choosing for themselves what is right and wrong did they die and were they expulsed and commanded NOT to eat of the Tree of life which is what gives them immortality.
sarevor 1 year ago
If Adam and Eve were created without being sinless, then God creates sinful beings. If God creates beings with sin, and we are created in his image, then God would would be sinful. Since the Bible says that God is love and is without sin, then God created Adam and Eve to have his image (sinless).
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Yes, He did create Adam and Eve to be sinless.
rpierre777 1 year ago
Jehovah Witnesses don't believe in Satan being a person. They believe he is a spirit. Two different things.
ReinitaRockera 1 year ago
@ReinitaRockera Are they different? Are you defining a person as one having flesh and blood only?
rpierre777 1 year ago
It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.
timothyqkilgore 1 year ago
@timothyqkilgore Well, wisdom is Christ Jesus (1 Cor 1:24) and He is our Everlasting Father. (Is 9:6) Also, in many places, God has spoken through people. Does this mean that God is just being personified, too?
rpierre777 1 year ago
@timothyqkilgore I forgot to include in my original response that Jn 4:24 and 2 Cor 3:17 says that God is Spirit. Does this mean He is just being personified? If He's a spirit and spirits are not people, then God can't be a person, right? Or, is this an exception?
rpierre777 1 year ago
spirit being holy because it's from God. But spirit means PNEUMA (4151) in Greek. Meaning breath, like the wind, invisible and immaterial. I'm working quickly, will spend more time later and perfectly willing to discuss it with you on an adult level. I don't think even if it were preceded by an indefinite article it would make any difference. when did the Holy Spirit appear in bodily form to anyone in heaven or earth? lets put the article aside for a minute and analyze the actually scriptures
timothyqkilgore 1 year ago
very quickly, must go to work, i found only one scripture (Acts 1:16) that say the holy spirit spoke by david's mouth. can we establish which scriptures you are referring to? I didn't hear any in your video. even at this early stage this cannot mean that a person was inside david and spoke, but david being anointed could speak by means of god's active force. i understand what you are driving at. But the bible says hundreds of times that the devil is a person and never says that about the HS
timothyqkilgore 1 year ago
I'm going to go get my Vines Dictionary and see what it says. Did you even bother to check out the original language? Many, many english words in the bible are exactly the same, but have different shades of meaning. I will check back with you and give you my analysis of my research.
timothyqkilgore 1 year ago
nice twisting of scripture. the holy spirit has never appeared as a person, but satan has, even appearing before jehovah himself and issuing a challenge of his way of ruling. quite different than the scriptures that say the holy spirit speaks. personally i would look directly at the original language of which the word was used. often words like "speak" often mean different things. It does not automatically make their argument untrue, even though they decided to use it in the article.
timothyqkilgore 1 year ago
are you saying satan is the holy spirit?
andyandyband 1 year ago
@andyandyband No... I am saying that if Jws apply the same reasoning as to WHY they believe Satan is a person and not a force then they have no reason to reject the Holy Spirit as a person as well.
21crosscheck21 1 year ago
i just told 2 bible fuckers off...charles taze russell 33rd degree freemason...33rd degree freemasons and higher worship a deity called Jahbulon. Well its a demonic entity. So fuck the bible movement.
ChilloutSessionZ 1 year ago
Jesus breathed the holy spirit on others. It is God's spirit and retains characteristics or the raphesh of Yahweh. This is the same spirit that the prophets used to be inspired and the holy spirit spoke THROUGH them. As for Satan, that would mean Jesus was speaking to himself and that would make him seem deluded. If Satan is the flesh, then what tempted Adam and Eve? They were not yet flesh, but were still immortal. Revelations explains to us to the snake in the Garden was.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Adam and Eve were always flesh. (Gen 3:19) They were never immortal. They were kicked out the garden so they won't eat the fruit of the Tree of Life and live forever. There is not one verse that states nor indicates in any way that their substance was transformed from spiritual to physical.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 The nature of reality had shifted after Adam and Eve's act if faithlessness: "And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” This verse seems to be implying that life was not this difficult beforehand. Also, this makes it difficult for our understanding of Jesus' sacrifice.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Just because God cursed the ground so that Adam would not have it easy does not imply a change in his physical nature. (Gen 3:17) Yes, God changed the comfort level, or the nature of reality, of Adam and Eve, but not the chemical makeup of their bodies.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Being flesh alone does not imply mortality. God was upset at what had happened and God set out to correct what had happened. It pretty much describes everything following the event until the present day and the future when Jesus returns. Also, please consider the vision of the prophets where a child is walking with the beasts of the field.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor If they had immortality, there would be no need for them to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever. (Gen 3:22-24) That vision does not indicate a change in Adam and Eve's physical nature in any way. That let's us know of the change in the way of the world around us in all respects, but not our own bodies.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Adam and Eve underwent spiritual death by choosing for themselves what is good and bad. Because they chose separation from God, in which Paul describes God as what we move in and gives our being, God had given them ultimate separation: Eternal nonexistence.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor God's punishment in no way signifies that without the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever. They needed to eat from that tree to live. That's why they were casted out. Had they stayed, they would have eaten and lived forever. It was the Tree of Life (Jesus-spiritually) that was keeping them alive.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 God wanted them to fail?
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor It is not that God wanted them to fail, He knows the weakness of man and that we are susceptible to temptation. If you notice, physical death as punishment for sins is a penalty upon man. Satan doesn't grow old and die. He was created outside of time. Time if for us. That is why man dies as time passes, but satan and his angels never age nor die from old age. The physical death of man came from expulsion from the garden. The spiritual death came with the curses imposed.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Just because we are susceptible to temptation does not mean that temptation cannot be avoided. The heart of this argument is what the tree represented. If God did not want us to fail, then it would follow that God had originally planned to give man immortality and to live with God in the garden forever. This makes more sense to me than and fits more with a God that gives love freely, and unconditionally, while at the same time giving us a choice because love gives choices.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor I never said temptation cannot be avoided. God has always planned to give mankind immortality. I agree with that 100%. However, there never was a change in plan. Through Christ alone can we get was God has always planned. In order for God to plan to give us something means He didn't already give it to us-hence the tree. The tree and its fruit do have a figurative aspect, but, it was a literal tree with literal fruit. The account of Adam and Eve isn't part real and part fiction...
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 It was a literal tree and literal fruit, but the fruit itself had no power. The power behind it was the choice. There was a choice, "Is the morality that God provides to us [do not touch from this tree] the morality that we want to keep or reject?" They chose to reject God's morality otherwise they would not have picked from the tree. There are some Christians that believe that Jesus is crucial but that bringing in Jesus was not needed, but only needed to correct the problem.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor If it had no power, then the accound is part real and part fiction. I'm not saying the power is in the fruit. It's just like Jesus using mud to give sight to the blind. The healing power was from God through the mud-the same as the fruit. There are those who say, "That's not true. The Bible is not being completely honest." (I am stopping short of saying they are calling it a lie.) I do understand the question posed, however, that does not take away the written account. (continued...)
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor As far as Jesus not being needed, it is written, "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (Jn 14:6) Was Jesus lying? Paul said in 1 Cor 15:22 that it is through Christ we are made alive. Was he lying? Also, God "reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ". (2 Cor 5:18) There was no other way. Jesus said, "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (Jn 5:40) Jesus was saying plainly that you NEED to come to Him to have life. Life comes from the Father through the Son unto us....
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor ....There is no other way to gain life. Jesus said, "he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (Jn 3:18) So, if you don't have Christ, you stand condemned-period. That is not "crucial", that is necessary.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Of course we are supposed to believe in Christ, I don't attest to it, but he only became necessary after the 'fall'.
sarevor 1 year ago
@rpierre777 " Through Christ alone can we get was God has always planned." God had only planned that after the 'fall'. "15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [a] and hers; he will crush [b] your head, and you will strike his heel."
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor That wasn't God making a plan. That was God declaring His plan.
rpierre777 1 year ago
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@rpierre777 "That wasn't God making a plan. That was God declaring His plan." I don't see a difference. A God that knows everything and knows what we will do if he brings in certain variables, is nothing other than a trap. A God that knows everything but the choices we end up deciding to make is different from knowing that the zeigeist that occupies Kings will lead to certain behaviors. Satan does afterall rule this world.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor There is a difference. It is written in 1 Pe 1:20:
"God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days." (NLT)
"It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you." (Amplified)
(continue...)
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor (continue...)
"Christ was chosen even before the world was created, but because of you, he did not come until these last days." (CEV)
"Christ was chosen before the world was made, but he was shown to the world in these last times for your sake."
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor and...
"You were bought with blood that is worth much. It is like the blood of a sheep that is perfect with nothing wrong in its body. You were bought with the blood of Christ. Before the world was made God chose Christ to do it, and Christ came at the end of time for your sake. It is through Christ that you believe in God. God raised Christ from death and made him great. And that is why you are able to believe and hope in God. " (1 Pe 1:19-21, Worldwide English)
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor Plus:
"God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did not do it because of the good things we have done. He did it because he himself PLANNED to do it, and wanted to do it. That was the blessing he gave us in Christ Jesus. He had this plan BEFORE he made the world." 2 Tim 1:9)
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor Now, notice I have only quoted verses from different translations. I have not given a speech or some teaching I "heard", but I quoted scripture. Please do not say that Peter and Paul don't know what they are talking about.
There is no trap in God.I don't see how you can include zeigeist in this conversation. To limit God to just being a "spirit of the time/age" is demeaning to Him to say the least.
Satan rules this world because people worships him and he was given it-irrelevant.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 I didn't say that God is a spirit of the time of the age, only that Satan influences the character of pharaohs.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Okay. I reread what you said about zeigeist and I do apologize. I misunderstood what you were saying.
Yes, satan does tempt us to make certain choices, but he doesn't make us do it. We still make the choice.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 I have quoted scriptures as well, and I never insinuated that Paul and Peter don't know what they are talking about, only that they aren't saying what you think they are.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor I can only go by what they said. I don't agree that they spoke allegorical statements that need to be interpreted. What happens is people don't agree with what they said and try to find some other explaination for what was meant. Or, they don't look at the verses before and after a verse to understand that they verse is saying exactly what it's saying.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor If if was, it would then be equivalent to the stories of mythology. But, since these are real people and it was a real situation, it was a real tree that bears fruit which gave life everlasting to those who ate of it. Adam and Eve were kicked out before they could eat of it. Again, you cannot receive something you already have. Also, it wasn't meant for them to live in the garden forever. That's why God wanted them to subdue/replenish the earth. They were to expand the garden.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Mankind was sinless before they chose to be separated from God. Separation from God is a sin and sin leads to death. Both Satan and mankind were immortals. Time does not necessitate destruction. A change in DNA winding down would have this result. It is arguable that if certain changes were made to our DNA then we would live forever. Man expulsion from the Garden was the result of their choice and their choice lead to death. Gods warning was that they would die.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor I agree. Mankind was sinless before the fall. But, being sinless does not constitute immortality. Adam and Eve weren't immortal. There is nothing in the Bible that eludes to this at all. I know what scientist say about our bodies, but, the neccessary changes for immortality is outside of how God designed us. That's why Paul said we shall be changed to be like Him when He comes back-even Paul acknowledges he doesn't know what that would be like. If Adam and Eve's physical nature changed
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Death had only entered into the world when Adam and Eve rejected God. This doesn't not contradict what Paul is saying and does not suggest what you believe it does. "That we will be changed to be just like Him". Exactly, so how can you say that "Paul acknowledges he doesn't know what that would be like"?
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Spiritual death entered into the world due to the fall. Physical death was emminant unless they ate from the Tree of Life. The same way Jesus said, "he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." (6:58) So, if you don't eat, you die. As far as Paul, I meant John. He said, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 Jn 3:2)
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Again, that verse is saying that we do know how we will be like, since we will "be like he is". Jesus is a spirit being in his current form. So if we are to be like him, then we will also be spirit. Bread of life is Gods word and his morality. We lost that by choosing not to eat of the bread in the garden, sort of speak.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Yes, we will have spiritual bodies, but, what exactly does that mean-we don't know. Our bodies will be immortal, pure, incorruptible, glorious, powerful, etc. But, what will it's appearance be? We do not know. Can we see through it? That is what is not revealed.
True, the Bread of Life is God's Word. It's not His morality-that's righteousness. This bread is Jesus Himself (Jn 6:35, 48, 51) and has always been such. Adam and Eve didn't refuse to eat, they were prohibited by God.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Yeah man, but they were only prohibited AFTER they took of the fruit God commanded them not to eat. Otherwise, this makes zero sense to me, tbh.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Now, Paul said this regarding Adam and Christ:
1 Cor 15:45-47 (NLT)
So it is written: "The Scriptures tell us, “The first man, Adam, became a living person.” But the last Adam—that is, Christ—is a life-giving Spirit. What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later. Adam, the first man, was made from the dust of the earth, while Christ, the second man, came from heaven."
It is written that the bodies Adam and Eve had was the same as ours. Our bodies...
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Since all men are descendent's of Adam, we inherit original sin and also death. That verse is commenting on how Jesus replaces Adam, so that we will no longer be "Sons of men" but "Sons of God".
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Right, but the following verses let us know what type of bodies they had as it relates to what type of bodies we are waiting for. Notice verse 47 says Adam was made from the dust of the earth and that Christ came from heaven. This is talking about their beginnings-not their end.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 They were made of the dust of the ground. God created heaven and EARTH and called it good. Some believe this means matter. We are made out of matter but we were offered eternal life in the material realm.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Right. We were offered eternal life (through Christ); not given it.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor ...age and deteriorates; so did theirs. What kept them healthy, whole, and alive was eating from the Tree of Life.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor the scriptures would have told us that in some way or the other. It did let us know how Moses' face "changed" or glowed. It let us know how Enoch and Elijah changed. Why not Adam and Eve? Because their nature didn't change. If you look at the entire account of God's punishment, a change in physical nature was not part of the deal. Now, according to Gen 3:22,24, God kicked them out of the garden so they wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life. That's what's written. Anything else is a lie.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Exactly, they were eating from the tree of life before they were kicked out due to their own rejection. This is another way of saying that God has taken away their immortality.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor RIght. Their "immortality" was due to eating of the Tree of Life. They didn't have life in and of themselves. In the same way, we have "immorality" when we partake of the Tree of Life or eat of the manna from heaven.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Prove that the tree of life was also the tree of good and bad.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor I never said the Tree of Life was also the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was two separate trees. They had free access to the Tree of Life (before the fall), but were restricted against the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 A while ago you said that the Tree of Life is what gave them immortality, and once they stopped consuming of it, it lead to their death. Now you're saying that they're two separate trees which leads me to believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to live eternally. Their expulsion was a result of taking of the other tree, the knowledge of good and evil. I really recommend watching: watch?v=7y3vci-jXUY it really helped me understand Genesis. Genesis sets the stage for Christian theolog
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor I meant, it seemed like you were saying that they were of the same tree, and consuming it is what gave them immortality. In other words, they were of the same tree and that eating of it is what caused death.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Death came through the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Life came through the Tree of Life. Once Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Good and Evil, God did not allow them to receive life through the physical tree. They had to eat of the spiritual tree-Jesus.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor Eternal life "flowed" through the Tree of Life. Once they stopped eating it, their bodies began dying. Yes, God wanted them to live eternally, but He didn't make them that way. I will check out the video and let you know what I think.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor The Tree of Life in the garden providing eternal life is equivalent to the sacrifices under the law of Moses providing forgiveness. It is temporal. Only through Jesus is it eternal.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor "Man expulsion from the Garden was the result of their choice and their choice lead to death." I know that's what you have been taught, but that's not what Gen 3:22-24 says. It was an end result of it, but not a direct result. The expulsion was to keep them from eating of the Tree of Life; hence, no eternal life.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Not to sound rude, but exactly how do you know what I have been taught? I was raised a Catholic, became an atheist, then became a Hindu/New Ager, then I studied the Bible on my own and that's how I personally understand scripture. If you think that I am a JW then you're wrong. I agree with many things they have said but not all of it.
sarevor 1 year ago
@rpierre777 The expulsion was due to taking of the fruit of Good and Evil... Gen 1:10:13
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Some may argue that God didn't know and He hoped for the best. Well, that doesn't really make sense. To me, if God didn't want them to be tempted or tested by it, why include it with there environment? This is shown when God commanded the Israelites to remove the other nations from the Promise Land, and to not marry them. That way, they won't be tempted to follow their gods. Plus, I believe God knows everything.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 I don't believe that God knows everything, otherwise our free will would be in jeopardy. It makes sense to me that God allowed the tree there to allow a choice between choosing between what God had offered or not choosing it. God was protecting Israel as a way to bring us back to what we once had but lost. The Jews would act as tutors leading to Christianity and would be the birthplace of the Messiah.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor Name one thing that God does not know? And, if someone knows it, but God doesn't, is that person greater than God seeing they know more than Him? God did allow the tree to be there for a choice. That doesn't mean He is ignorant of things. Yes, He was protecting Israel, but that doesn't mean He is ignorant of things, either.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 So God sent in that tree, knowing we would choose to disobey, and also knowing the pain and suffering that would result from such a choice. We can't have free will if he knows what we will decide. Certainly God knows everything, but the things that he does not know is the choices we will make. Although, he does know the overall decisions that we do make and what those consequences are.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor God knows what choices we will make. That doesn't take away free will. The only thing that takes away free will is when someone else makes you do things. Just like God told Abraham about the hardships of Israel in Egypt. God told Abram, "Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;" (Gen 15:13) This was before Isaac was born. Was God guessing?...
rpierre777 1 year ago
@sarevor ...How did He come to the idea that Pharoah would enslave Abraham's seed? How could God attest to amount of time they would be in slavery? What about Judas? How did God know that it would be "a friend" of Jesus that betrayed Him? (Ps 41:9) Jesus said, "All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad." (Matt 26:31) How did God know this? (Zech 13:7)
rpierre777 1 year ago
JWs describe Satan as " God of this system of things".
Satan is a spirit but can enter into a person or an animal like he did in Genesis.
I was a JW for 18 years, so I remember some of this stuff. Though, alot has probably changed from 5 years ago after I left. lol
grimreaper18 1 year ago
luisitomachado1..... Is Satan a person? or is he merely sin/evil in us? READ (Matthew 4) (Job chapter 1)...it's clear he is/was angelic!
cymruambyth67 1 year ago
21crosscheck21 - looks like you found that place where the marrow meets the bone.
isaiah30v8 2 years ago
You said Satan is a person.Wrong!Where in the Bible it is?
You said the HS is a person.Wrong!Where in the Bible it is?
You and the WT playing with the Bible.Let see...CommOn sense?
THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
luisitomachado1 2 years ago
What's the Holy Spirit's name?
DonObeWan3 2 years ago
TRUTHINTHEBIBLE..... RUBBISH.......The JWs want YOU to read their Watchtower magazine....... so THEY can tell you what parts of the Bible they want you to read.....WHY ?.....because they have re-written their Bible and, this comes from their Brooklyn Head Office, they want to control believers so that they do not read the entire Bible.....which WILL show the JWs FALSE TEACHINGS UP through what they read............CULT
SuperDaydreamer1 2 years ago
Again21cc21 has raised a question that he cannot fully defend. Keep thinking yourself a great thinker. I ask," Why do you only do exposes of JW's? Aren't there easier targets?"
TRUTHINTHEBIBLE 2 years ago
@TRUTHINTHEBIBLE How about you do a video on the other ones. Look forward to viewing it.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 Why did Jesus die?
sarevor 1 year ago
sounds as if they believe that satan has more power than the Holy Spirit... they are not thinking clearly to say the least!
gigglesinthesun 2 years ago
why dont you give us a couple of scriptures in which the holy spirit is actually speaking and conversing with others.
ff0840 2 years ago
@ff0840 Will you send the scriptures that shows every one of the thousand upon thousand of angels conversing with others? If not, then I guess they are actual beings, either. Only the ones that actually have speaking parts in the bible.
rpierre777 1 year ago
Oh well done Brian. My sister is studing with JW's now, believe it or not, and This will be great to send her!
REVPIPSTER 2 years ago
The duality of mankind..
Biblical texts are concepts of the good and bad conscious nature of humanity..
It is the consciousness of the symbolic christ person own thoughts telling him to throw him self down off the mountian..
I can relate to that..
We all have had a subcounscious thought about doing something that could hurt others or ourselves.
clnmyjts 2 years ago
They also use this argument in their 1967 "Truth" book on page 55-57 and in their "Reasoning From the Scriptures" under the Satan section.
"Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "Knowledge", for by professing it some have swerved from the faith."
1 Tim 6:20-21
pretoshohmoofc 2 years ago
test!!!
acerimmeh 2 years ago
There is just ONE TRUE GOD: The Father
There is just ONE TRUE LORD: JC
I'm sure you agree, don't you?
Larsinger58 2 years ago 3
@Larsinger58 Well, Deut 10:17 refers to the Father as Lord. Are you saying that He is not?
rpierre777 1 year ago
I'm beginning to think that the JW are tryna convince people that there is more than one God. When I say that I mean that they must believe in Jehovah God and Christ god... this we know is polytheism.. and not a correct representation of the Godhead. I will pray for the JW because you have been decieved by the WTC and its not your fault.
robkelly100 2 years ago
Jesus Himself claimed to be God and the Messiah. In John 10:30 he says "The Father and I are one" John 5:18 says "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus knew what He was claiming when He called God His Father, so did the Jews, but for some reason the WTS cant seem to decipher the meaning with all their "prophets"
robkelly100 2 years ago
Jesus NEVER claimed to be Jehovah God.
Not once.
EVER!!
You really need to research and find out what he meant by "one"!!!!
JWinCT 2 years ago
Simple! One means One! He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. They are one entity. He is not the Father. The Father is not the Son. But both are God. Two pesonalities of the Godhead. How can a man, or an angel bridge the gap between man and God? They Can't! It has to be somone who is truly Man and Truly God. Jesus, the one Who created the Heaven and Earth (Gen 1:1)
robkelly100 2 years ago
Re: robkelly
[John 10:30]
Q: Jesus and the Father are one what? What are they one of?
[John 5:18]
Q2: So if someone calls God their Father they must be what? God somehow?
BTW If not a JW.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
1) Probably the same thing when Paul said it of himself and Apollos in 1 Cor. 3.
2) Samuel was God's Son but not God (2Sam. 7:14).
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
scripturaltruths, I agree with you completely.
My first point was that there is no grounds for reading John 10:30 as "I and the Father are one in essence" because it obviously doesn't say that.
My second point was exactly that someone isn't in any way God just because they call God their Father.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
I find it extremely interesting, that the same tritheist/polytheist trinitarians who try to make holy spirit into a PERSON, also try to make Jesus into GOD ALMIGHTY!!! Seems their ignorance of Scripture is REALLY SHOWING!!
What will they do next?
Try to make Judaism into Protestantism?!?
UH-oh!!!!
JWinCT 2 years ago
There is `No light in you``
acoolwitness 2 years ago
The Holy Spirit as a person is the fabrication of a sitting Roman governments influence on Christianity (Nicea) an apostasy foretold by Jesus himself.
acoolwitness 2 years ago
acoolwitness, don't JWs believe that Satan fell from heaven after the New Testament was written? If so why is he opposing God in the book of Job?
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
Hi bandaidmafia,
"don't JW's believe that Satan fell from heaven after the New Testament was Written?"
We don't beileive that he "fell" like he tripped and fell out of heaven :-)
But that he was cast out.
I m sure you already know Revelation is a prophetic book.
Rev 1:1 "the things which must shortly come to pass".
In Rev 12:7-9 Satan and his Demons are being thrown out of heaven. So yes JW's believe Satan was cast out of heaven post NT completion.
acerimmeh 2 years ago
Ridiculous comparison. the bible clearly portrays Satan as a person (spirit,angel) there is NO dispute of that fact. Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
acoolwitness 2 years ago
Your rational....as usually 21, is lacking. I cannot wait until you get the November 1 Issuse of the Watchtower....It is FANTASTIC!
JAKEV25 2 years ago
You're right JAKE. That WT november-issue is indeed absolutely fantastic, food for thought and probably food for even more video's from 21crosscheck21. I looooove freedom of speech !
Sabianfan 2 years ago
Looking forward to getting it. I think however that Shaz has already done a video or two about it.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
Job 1:
Then Jehovah said to Satan: Where do you come from? At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it. 8 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: Have you set your heart upon my servant Job.
Did God ever speak to the Holy Spirit?
JAKEV25 2 years ago
So God has conversations with His arch Opposer and yet never has a conversation with his equal counterpart the Holy Spirit?....God has conversations with Christ....No?...Why does God not have conversations with the Holy Spirit?
"Hey Holy Spirit what have you been up to?"
JAKEV25 2 years ago 3
LOL!!! I LIKE it Jake!! I LIKE IT!!!
Do trinitarians, when they worship their false idol cross, do they go "spectacle, testicles, wallet and watch" [see my favorite videos]---just like their false religious parents, catholicism???
JWinCT 2 years ago
@JAKEV25 The recorded conversation btw God and Satan was for our benefit to understand the tests and trials fo Satan. Also, to show the limitations of Satan. It gives the exhausted meaning behind this verse: "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him." (Isa 59:19)
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 No this is what your church tells you...But the bible teaches a completely different story about how Jesus was tempted with Evil by Satan...Of course if you believe Jesus to be God Almighty you must make excuses for this conversation in the bible.
JAKEV25 1 year ago
@JAKEV25 No church taught me this. It is written, "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13) When Satan come to tempt you, God limits him on what he can do so that you can be able to bear it. It was the same way with Job. God didn't change how He deals with Satan when it comes to tempting us verses Job.
rpierre777 1 year ago
@rpierre777 "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13) " Good verse, and it highlights what I have been trying to say. God "makes a way to escape". If God is what caused us to die in the Garden of Eden and applied no escape then it wasn't Satan that caused their downfall it was God. But that won't be true if God didn't plan on our death.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor If "the tree of life" was the same tree as "the tree of the knowledge" then there was absolutely no way to escape death. Either don't eat of the tree and die, or eat or the tree and die anyway.
sarevor 1 year ago
@sarevor If we were going to die no matter what, and God had it in his plan for us to die, then Satan was a non factor in all of this since he knows all of our ways. If this is true, then God planned no escape, but if we interpret it in the way that God never intended any of this to happen, then God DOES allow for escape and God does give love freely.
sarevor 1 year ago
@rpierre777 If Adam and Eve were sinless and the "wages for sin is death" then Adam and Eve were sinless before partaking of the fruit. Since they were sinless, they would also be immortal. If their immortality rested on their need to eat of the Tree of Life but eating of that "Tree of Life" caused sin then eating of the Tree of Life would cause death. It would cause death because sin leads to death. If all of this is true, then God caused sin and also death. But only if it is the same tree
sarevor 1 year ago
Has the HS ever been dipicted as a person the way Satan has; talk with, Jehovah, interacting with with him as a person? The same goes for Jesus. Jesus confronted the PERSON of Satan Matthew 4. Satan "entered into" people because they breath in the hatred and evil that Satan has perpetuated among mankind. Ephesiean 2:1-3. I hope that reasonable truth seekers who read this will see the truth of it and ignore the negative lies about God,Jesus, the Holy Spirit and Satan. The truth is plain.
TRUTHINTHEBIBLE 2 years ago
Comment removed
Directline1000 2 years ago
Q: 21crosscheck21 do you concede that Proverbs 8 is a reference to Jesus?
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
No, I do not believe Proverbs 8 refers to Jesus.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
Q: So do you believe that it is merely a personification of wisdom or what?
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
Yes personification as would be expected in poetic literature.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
Are you aware that the early church held this belief, while the NT repeatedly alludes to Proverbs 8 and early extra-biblical Jewish Wisdom texts?
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
I am very aware of "some" (not all as your statement would imply) in the early church held this belief... as some still do today.
I have yet to see an explicit link in the NT.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
I did not mean to imply that every early church author held this view, but a significant portion ranging from Justin to Origen to Athanasius.
Regarding those links, there are clear parallels between Proverbs 8:22, 24-25 and Colossians 1:15. Colossians 1:17 is undoubtedly pulled directly from Sirach 1:4, while Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians 1:15 draw from Wisdom 7:26. Too, John's entire prologue is deeply rooted in Wisdom texts. You might consider chapter 4 of my book as space is here limited.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
ST... I will check those out, however I would point out that neither Sirach nor Wisdom are NT books or even scripture.
I have not had a chance to read your book yet but is next on my list and I am looking forward to it.
21crosscheck21 2 years ago
But will you believe what you read, or rationalize it away?
TRUTHINTHEBIBLE 2 years ago
Jesus is described as wisdom all thru the NT.....Let the light shine in 21.....Get rid of those stained glass windows....
JAKEV25 2 years ago
But concerning proverbs 8,Justin, Origen,and Tertullian all believed it referred to Jesus...and they all believed him to be YHWH...uncreated. Did you know that even Athanasius believed it referred to Jesus? The same Athanasius who referred to Ariasnism as "vomit?" Believe me, Athie did NOT believe Jesus to be created; neither did the above men. They believed that it referred to Jesus existing WITHIN the Father...and then the Father begetting him, ie, bring him OUT of him!
msm1876 2 years ago
Let's read Proverbs 8:22 as a man reading it in say, 500 BC. The man would read it about wisdom, no? Certainly, he wouldn't see any pre-existing Messianic implications, would he? Would that man, then believe there was a time God existed WITHOUT wisdom, and he instead somehow had to create it from scratch? Or would he see it as God possessing wisdom within Himself, and bringing it forth, out of his mouth? So why must it mean that Jesus was created from nothing?
msm1876 2 years ago
Well it uses the very language of creation... the language is attributed to a person where that same language is used. When it is used for all others it means something, so why wouldn't it mean the same for this one?
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
The only time the word qanah occurs concerning a person's birth, it's Gen 4:1, where Eve said she has gotten a man from the Lord.
Cain didn't come into existence the moment that Eve gave birth or "produced him" since he was already alive in his mother's womb for at least nine months. This demonstrates that the verb qanah doesn't necessarily refer to creating someone or something from nothing, but can refer to something or someone that already existed and was then brought forth or birthed.
msm1876 2 years ago
FIrst, in Genesis 14 qanah is used of heaven and earth, which from Genesis 1:1 is created. Second, birth is idiomatic for creation (Psa. 90:2), which creation (including Cain in his birth) did originally come from nothing. In other words, the basis for everything that qanah is used of has its basis in creation ex nihilo. Further, the early translations (LXX, Syriac) render qanah in 8:22 as "created," leaving no doubt as to the ultimate sense.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
Creation ex nihilo is the hebrew word Bara; Qanah generally tends to mean posess, or own; Many translations render Gen 14 the posessor of heaver and earth. Again, would Jews in 500 BC believe God created Wisdom ex nihilo? That's ridiculous. There's just not enough gas in the Prov 8:22 tank to prove that Jesus was created ex nihilo.
msm1876 2 years ago
I was not arguing from the specific Hebrew word, but again, when we compare Gen 1 and 14 we find that bara and qanah can and are used of the same thing, so that qanah is here used is not to the exclusion of bara, and further, the LXX makes it clear that ultimately bara is how God came to qanah this Wisdom. A Jew in 500 BC, I would suggest, wouldn't be sure what to make of this text, but the NT revelation makes it clear.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
It's not the same thing, though! God both posesses and has created heavens and earth.
If you hold that this teaches Jesus was created, NT revelation would CONTRADICT it. John 1:3 says that Jesus made EVERYTHING that was made...that disqualifies him from being made!
msm1876 2 years ago
Again, you read a 4th century understanding of this text...and it's theologically suicidal.
msm1876 2 years ago
And yet how did God "acquire" heaven and earth? He created it. And thus my point in that all God acquires he does by creating.
And no, John 1:3 does not contradict this notion. I encourage you to go watch my two part series of videos on the subject, or go to my website and read chapter 3 of my book.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
Again, Eve had Cain within her, yet she qanah him after he was born...she brought him forth. He didn't begin to exist when he was born.
Wisdom always existed in God...and so did his word. Lexicons aren't on your side here. Church history is definitely not on your side here. Do you really think it took 300 years until Arius hit the scene for it to dawn on people that Jesus was created? Wouldn't someone had taught it before the 300's if the apostles really taught it?
msm1876 2 years ago
Yes, but Cain wasn't hanging around in her from all eternity, and Cain was himself a creation. And still you cannot take that very far because God is not a human and he is not the Logos' mother.
Lexicons are entirely on my side on this matter for the LXX expressly uses ektisen. Language can be no more unambiguous. Further, he is "the beginning of his ways," or the first thing God brought into existence.
As for what was taught, you should know the picture wasn't nearly that cut and dry.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
Alright ST, to close...I'm not saying the Father is Christ's mother...I'm saying he's his source. The Logos existed in his bosom (Jn 1:18) and then he came forth from it. I'm not saying Cain existed for eternity. I'm saying qanah describes in Gen 14 something that already exists COMING FORTH. THus we need not be dogmatic that it means ex nihilo creation. As for the LXX...it's a translation...an uninspired one at that...and the Jews translating that assuredly did NOT believe...cont
msm1876 2 years ago
That God created Wisdom out of nothing. The LXX doesn't always vindicate your theology, either; It's translation of Zech 12:10 quotes God as saying, "You will look upon ME who you PIERCED," which is what is also what's in the Hebrew of the Masoretic text, and this is fulfilled in Jn 19:37 when Jesus is LOOKED UPON, PIERCED. The lexicons I speak of define qanah as getting, buying, owning, not creating ex nihilo. There's just not enough gas in the Prov 8:22 tank to A) prove it's Jesus; cont
msm1876 2 years ago
cont. and B) prove that God created him ex nihilo. But I'm doing this all so you might consider the REAL Jesus-the one who spoke of a day he'd be looked upon pierced as God...and he died, was pierced, and was looked upon. Trusting in a false Jesus will produce a non-existent salvation. And I pray that you will consider the REAL Jesus...not a arian counterfit...and may that Jesus save you. In his name, Amen.
msm1876 2 years ago
Come on...it's not possible that if Eve qanah (broght forth) a man...who already existed within her...and God qanah (brought forth) Wisdom...that originally existed WITHIN him...is it? Justin thought so. Tertullian did too. Athanasius did. If that's a plausible, and in fact, likely, interp, why must we be dogmatic that it means "creation ex nihilo?"
msm1876 2 years ago
First, God is Father, not mother, second what existed in God was the attribute of wisdom, yet we're discussing a person. You're going to first have to explain how a person of God existed within another person of God and yet they remained coequal. As in every other case the language used in Proverbs 8 refers to creation, I see no reason for the appeal to special pleading to say here it isn't.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
I'm not talking about interpretation with them, I'm talking about attribution.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
Yes, but nobody until Arius believed it meant Jesus was created. That interpretation didn't emerge for over 250 years after the death of Jesus.
msm1876 2 years ago
And obviously I'm going to entirely reject that notion.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
[Justin, Origen,and Tertullain]
A) None of them were orthodox Trinitarians and both Origen and Tertullian were considered heretics anyways.
[So why must it mean that Jesus...?]
B) I don't think it refers to Jesus in the first place so it doesn't matter to me whether wisdom is "created" or not.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
Ok, but that one was directed to scripturaltruths ;-)
msm1876 2 years ago
Sorry, I got it in my comment inbox :)
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
Wait, maybe I didn't... What comment are you referring to? lol
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
Well than you disagree with many people you read the Bible.
TRUTHINTHEBIBLE 2 years ago
bandaidmafia,
Would you say that the first 7 chapters of Proverbs speaks of Jesus when wisdom is mentioned? Or, is this poetic language? Thank-you in advance for your kind reply.
middleman777 2 years ago
Wisdom is certainly just an attribute in Proverbs 7, but it is not *actively* personified as in Proverbs 8. The argument is that such active personification is seen because there is one who personifies the attribute of Wisdom, the preexistent Messiah, the Logos. It is therefore important to distinguish between the person Wisdom and the attribute wisdom.
scripturaltruths 2 years ago
[Would you say that the first 7 chapters of Proverbs speaks of Jesus when wisdom is mentioned?]
A: No.
[Or, is this poetic language?]
A: Yes.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago
bandaidmafia,
I agree that wisdom in the first 7 chapters of Proverbs is poetic language. It's odd to me that all of a sudden in Chapter 8 it switches to Jesus, after the pattern of poetic language that has been established. It seems like a stretch, no?
middleman777 2 years ago 3
[It's odd to me that all of a sudden in Chapter 8 it switches to Jesus, after the pattern of poetic language that has been established.]
A: Right I agree with you. It makes about as much sense as saying that God's spirit is all of a sudden a person just because it is personified a couple of times.
bandaidmafia 2 years ago