@deano Ventolin's problem is that he's a complete maniac. We all know the nonsense about Ryun's 3:33.1 equaling ~3:28.2. By Ventolin's calculation method, I should hold the 800WR. Back to Coe here, this was a very nice run. CP was a notoriously slow track and not many have beaten 1:44.0 here. It was clear by this point to Ovett, after being wrung out in the Euro 800, that he didn't want to race Coe again over 800.
@KingLiopleurodon Hi! Thanks for the words of support re Ventolin. LOL. He is truly infuriating and best ignored really. I fear that others on there believe the crap he spouts if he says it often enough.
Yeah, I think Coe got into some very good form late in 78, after a couple of spells of injury mid summer. Interestingly, he tried to get to run in that epic 2 mile run at the same meet, according to his bio, but either Andy Norman or Ovett kept him out of the race.
So, he was stuck with the 800. That would have been a fascinating match up, as 2 days later Coe also beat Rono convincingly over 1 mile, and a month after that he beat Coghlan, Mcloud and Foster's record by 9 secs in a 4 mile road race in 17:54. The first signs of what was to come the following summer!
@deano27671 I wonder how he would've done had he been in that 2 mile. I strongly believe he would not have won, but might have posted something like 8:20 In his 81 or 84 form he might have done some damage.
@7agneskickingbird7 I wouldn't say he'd have won, but I think he'd have been a lot closer than you think. Although a WR at the time, 8:13 is only worth around 7:40 for 3000m. Coe only ran in pretty slow tactical races indoors over 3k, and a 7:54 pb on the tight wooden boards of Cosford must have been worth 7:48 on a synthetic 400 track, and that was in March.
Oct 78, Coe beat Coghlan (13:26 5k that summer) & McLeod (13:25) in a 4 mile race in Ireland running 17:54, which is equivalent to 13:50 5k pace for another mile. He also broke Foster's (the previous 2 Mile record holder at 8:14) course record by 11 secs. Foster had run that in 77 when he'd been a 13:21 runner on the track. Coe's endurance was heavily underestimated. An 800m man who could beat 13:20 runners over 4 mi was certainly capable of close to 7:40 for 3k & would have been a danger.
@deano27671 I hope you don't think I was criticizing Coe's endurance at all. Not so. I just think that he wouldn't have won that 2 mile. I am well aware of some of the longer races he ran on road, one of which I think was a 7.5 km one at something like 13:46ish pace. I have no doubt that had he been in his 81 or 84 form he would've been right with Rono and Ovett with 200m to go and would probably outkick them in the home straight.
Ah, the good old days, when you could dope up on cocktails of performance enhancing drugs that were undetectable. Lucky Lord Coe a man so obviously off his face, I remember one post race interview and his pupils were the size of saucers and he was dribbling, high as a kite! Now he wants life bans for anyone caught taking drugs and he's the most outspoken person in UK athletics about drug taking 'The Lady doth protest too much'.
@Whatsitallabaaat Clearly you are ignorant of athletics from that time. Coe was the most tested athlete (over 200 times) of the 80's. What were all these "undetectable" drugs? The only undetectable one in recent times is EPO, which wasn't available before the mid 90's. Steroids were detectable and he would have been tested for them at every major Champs & after every world record performance.
Moreover, UK athletes were subject to random out of competition testing from 81 & random out of season testing from 85, 4 years before the IAAF introduced similar world wide testing procedures. Coe hasn't just started calling for lifetime bans. He (along with ED Moses) was the first athlete to address the IOC congress in Baden Baden in Sept 81, calling for lifetime bans for any competitor caught taking drugs.
He also carried out the research in his role as Vice President of the Sports Council, and published a document (with Lord Moynihan) in 1985, calling for a ban on blood doping in sport. His findings were taken up by the IAAF and implemented in 1986. So, you see that Coe has always been fervently anti- drugs and there is not an ounce of evidence to suggest that he ever used.
@deano27671 I would have to say that Coe was clean. There were steroids that could've helped him recover from those hellacious sessions quickly, but the fact that he was constantly sick or injured and it took him a while to recover make me lean towards him being clean. Contrary to someone like El G who was never injured or sick and able to run sub 3:28 any day of the week. Again I would have to say that Coe was clean, but there is no athlete I would say for 100% certainty is clean or dirty.
@deano27671 While I agree with you, I wouldn't use Coe calling for lifetime bans and being fervently anti drugs as evidence that he was clean. There have been athletes that were dirty that were outspoken against drugs like Marion Jones, Carl Lewis, El G, Lance Armstrong etc. I still think he was clean, and would be surprised if it was found that he was doping. But like I said earlier, there is not a single athlete I will say for 100% certainty to be clean or dirty. Even my all time fav Jim Ryun.
@7agneskickingbird7 Thanks for messaging me. I find Ryun a fascinating figure, a decade or more ahead of his time. I just wish there was more video footage of some of his exploits, as some of his alleged splits seem unbelievable! Did you actually see his 36.7-36.9 in person!? Wow! If you saw it on video, I'd love to see it. Have to say I find 36.4 in a 3:38 almost impossible, although a 37 flat would be more believable.
@deano27671 I saw the race on the tape "Jim Ryun: America's Greatest Miler", about a year ago. Had the last 450m. I had his last lap at about 50.6-50.8, the last 300 was a little hard to time, but somewhere in the ballpark of 36.7-37.2 (bit of discrepancy!) The supposed 11.6 down the backstretch was more around 11.9-12 flat when I timed it. If I ever come across the tape again i'll definately upload it. I think workouts like 40x400m,18x800m and 20x400m in 62 at 17 shortened his later career.
@deano27671 Despite being a big fan of Ryun, Ventolin's 3:24 he gives him is just silly.
Mid 3:28 maybe. He says in his book "In Quest of Gold", after a couple of workouts before the 72 Olympics he and his coach felt that he was in shape to run a 3:45-46 mile.
Your right, calling for lifetime bans while at the height of your career is enough to convince me. I just lol'ed pretty hard when I found out that El G's red ribbon he wore was to make a statment against EPO and hGH.
@7agneskickingbird7 Ventolin is clearly a creature of the 60's and would have everyone believe that all the athletes from that era were the best ever and capable of equalling or bettering today's standards. WR's are moving targets, so an athlete is conditioned to beat whatever the standard is in their era. From what Ryun DID, I'd say he was capable of something around 3:30 and 3:46 on synthetic tracks. Transfer his talent to today, and that would probably be faster. 3:24 is utter nonsense.
@deano27671 Do you think Mo Farah and Galen Rupp are on something? They've both made pretty good improvements, but Salazar is known to use substances in the "grey area", so I don't know.
There is no doubt in my mind now that Bekele is doping. Injured for a year and a half, drops out at worlds at a slow pace, comes back three weeks later and pops a 26:43 with a 56 last lap. That recovery just seems to good. That and the fact that he is managed by Jos Hermens.
@7agneskickingbird7 - I have always believed Bekele was using EPO. I have heard lots of things about Hermens which fail to reassure me his athletes are clean. I don't know a great deal about Salazar's set up in Oregon, but I believe Farah is dedicated and hasn't made the most of his talent in the past. I'd like to think he's genuine at this stage, as is Rupp. The WR for 10k should be in the 26:45 - 27:00 region by now. 26:17 is just plain silly!
@deano27671 Happen to have Coe's 1:42.33. Only seen bits and pieces of it from Born to Run. Wasn't the third 200 in something like mid 24? Amazing that he could accelerate like after after a 50.5-.6 opening lap. The penultimate 200 in my 800's are usually the slowest for me, then I can pick it up a bit for the last 200.
On a recent letsrun thread about El G being capable of under 3:25 at the 99 world champs, I noticed you mentioned that you could add about 2-3 seconds to a couple of athletes times to see what they were clean. I would personally add a few more seconds. You get a benefit taking EPO without even training and with training you can recover fast after grueling workouts. Maybe 4-5 seconds but that might just be me. I think El G was a 3:30-31 guy clean and Morceli probably 3:32.
@7agneskickingbird7 Cheers for that info. I don't doubt that you're right! I think EL G was a great athlete, but there is no way he was 3 secs better than the likes of Coe, Cram & Aouita. I think Coe had the potential of running 3:27.5-3:28.2 at absolute best with perfect pace and conditions. He simply never got these conditions & didn't run enough big 1500s on a circuit which wasn't like that of the late 90's.
I thought maybe Morceli's 3:28.86 in 92 was legit and perhaps just before EPO came into common use, but wasn't so sure about his 3:27.37 three years later. Maybe you're right about him too!
@deano27671 You may have a point about Morceli. Before 93 he didn't seem nearly as dominant and I remember watching some footage of the race on a CBC sports year in review and he actually looked knackered after he crossed the line whereas in his 3:27 he was all jolly faced. I have no doubt that the anemia he had in 97 was a direct result of EPO.
Of all the past 1500/Mile wr holders El G and Morceli were the closest to reaching their limits. Coe who rarely raced the mile certainly didn't.
@7agneskickingbird7 I never knew he suffered from anaemia in 97! That's very interesting. I have no doubt that the majority of the 1500 (and distance runners) were on EPO from the mid 90's to 2004. I mean we had EL G, Ngeny, Lagat, Cacho, Baala, Komen, etc all running faster times than any one athlete has managed for the past 5 seasons! Cacho & Baala are nowhere near as talented as Ovett, Cram or Coe.
@deano27671 Anemia can be caused by repeated EPO injections that aren't done quite correctly. El G, Cacho, Geb and Bekele had/have excellent medical support, Morceli trained alone with just his brother and didn't have the full backup.
I used to think that the real 1500m champ in 2000 was 5th place Kevin Sullivan (probably just my Canadian bias) but now I'm not so sure as he finished ahead of several dirty athletes and ran his best times in a pretty dirty era.
@deano27671 Sorry, just a quick question. Is Ventolin Kenyan? He always defends Kenyan athletes (I don't think they're all dirty) and other African athletes like his life depends on it. I got into an argument with him once telling him that Ngney and Komen were jacked to the limit and all I got back was, well, you know. Wondering if you know what nationality he is. Cheers buddy
@7agneskickingbird7 Yes, he is Kenyan. He's a doctor (from his real name he sounds of possible Indian descent) who was brought up in Kenya. He does not like Coe as he sees him as a threat to the Kenyan dominance of 800m.
@deano27671 Ventolin takes off up to 9 seconds off Ryuns 1500 and mile times and up to 4 seconds off his 800 but only knocks a couple of tenths off Coe's 800, 1000 and 1500. That Stockholm run in 81 I'm guessing was probably around 3:28.5 if everything went alright. Put him on the Rieti track or the one in Brussels with his own army of rabbits and sub 1:41 and 3:28 would probably be a reality. For Ryun I think 1:42.5, 3:29.0 and 3:45-46 are more reasonable. Certainly not high 1:40
@7agneskickingbird7 I think you're pretty much spot on for both athletes. I think when Coe's Stockholm run was "evened out" for economic pacing (went to 3:30.6) and lack of drafting (had none from 200m to end, but only taken up to the bell) we get 3:28.3. His Rieti run in 86, when just past his absolute best, of 3:29.7 (54.0, 58.0, 56.1, 41.6) also works out at 3:28.3 when evened out for economic pacing and lack of drafting on the 2nd lap.
He also had to slow slightly at bell when Cheshire ran in front and slowed it down, causing Coe to run wide to get round him on the bend. He believes that cost him up to half a second and the then world record. I'd say if Coe in 81 (or possibly late 84) had even pacing on the Rieti track to the bell (a la what EL G often had) with say 55.5, 55.5 (1:51.0), 56.0 (2:47.0) and someone like Cram or Ovett on his shoulder with 300m to go, he could have run just under 3:28.0.
Ventolin's problem is he is far too generous with conversion from cinders to synthetic. I've had this conversation with Mel Watman & Peter Matthews, both statisticians (compile World ranking lists) & were there in the 60's watching Ryun. They say that on a wet day at White City (London) a long distance race of 5000/10000m might be affected by 1.0 sec per lap, but that a place like California on a warm sunny day with freshly laid cinders, a 1500m may only be affected by no more than 0.5 per lap.
@deano27671 No way El G was 3 seconds faster than Coe or Cram despite having significantly slower leg speed. My guess is that the EPO and hGH he (and many others) were on wouldn't kick in at 800m but probably later on in the race. I think that the era of milers like the british trio was probably the last of the clean or somewhat clean era of miling.
@7agneskickingbird7 I concur. It just doesn't compute that an athlete (Lagat) can run a 3:26 for 1500m but is unable to break 1:46 for 800m despite many races at the the distance on the circuit. Even Scott & Walker could run 1:45 & they were 5 or 6 seconds slower over 1500m!! The fact that EL G NEVER contested 800m at all in any European race, which almost all great 1500 runners have done, even for just speed work, only makes me more suspicious. That 1:42 TT was a pure myth to detract from this.
@deano27671 I also noticed one point you brought up on another recent thread. About milers secondary event usually being the 800, then in the EPO era they all seemed to lack that 800 speed yet had exceptional endurance. While I think you may have a point, sprinters like Jones and White were on EPO because they said it helped them recover super quickly from heavy training. EPO doesn't help your speed, so maybe the milers didn't do much speed training and instead did lots of endurance work? Cheers
@7agneskickingbird7 I hear what you're saying, but he went a lot further than saying drugs are bad and that athletes should be punished if caught in an interview. Almost all athletes asked those sort of questions would say that. He actually addressed an IOC congress and called for much harsher penalties than were then in place. He called for a "life ban" in 1981.
The chance of being caught if he were doping, however slight, would surely not be worth taking having put his neck on the line, especially if he had political aspirations. It would only take one witness or a positive test to totally ruin both his athletic career and any future political one. Moreover, it wasn't just rhetoric, he actually instigated the passing of legislation against blood doping within the IOC and IAAF while still competing. He actually put his money where his mouth was.
@deano27671 Do you have any more videos? Like Coe's 11.3 last 100 at the
Europa?? cup semi. That has to be one of the best kicks ever along with Ryun's apparent 36.4 last 300 in 67. More like 36.7-36.9 when I saw it one time. Coe and Ryun are my two favorite middle distance runners, I would rate Coe as the best ever and Ryun about 5th behind Snell, Ovett and Cram. Cheers Deano!
@7agneskickingbird7 I have got a lot of his races, most in fact, with a lot on here. Most of the others I have are races on here by other posters. Unfortunately the 11.3 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup semi I don't have! It's one I'm still on the lookout for. I do have his 11.9/24.1 finish in the 79 Europa Cup final 800m and his 11.9 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup final. The 12.0/24.7 last 100/200 in the World Cup 800 final of 81 is on here. Let me know of any others.
the famous Coe purple shirt or is it aubergine , cram had the jarrow gold and ovett had the russian red. incredible stuff all these downloads from you and arrisisipy. keep em coming.
Nice one! I think it was this race that made me realise Coe was in for the long haul. It's a pity about the quality,but a lot of evening meets from that era seemed to have suffered the same fate...maybe something to do with the film stock they used at the time?One dy the BBC will give their whole film archive over to be digitally cleaned up,but until then this is great! Thanks.
@ARRISIPPY I've got the earlier UK record from Brussels 78, which is of a slightly better quality. I'll work on that one next. I've also just uploaded Ovett's 74 European 800 silver (last 200m) and European Cup 1500 gold (last 450m) from 1977. Glad u liked it.
@deano Ventolin's problem is that he's a complete maniac. We all know the nonsense about Ryun's 3:33.1 equaling ~3:28.2. By Ventolin's calculation method, I should hold the 800WR. Back to Coe here, this was a very nice run. CP was a notoriously slow track and not many have beaten 1:44.0 here. It was clear by this point to Ovett, after being wrung out in the Euro 800, that he didn't want to race Coe again over 800.
KingLiopleurodon 2 days ago in playlist Uploaded videos
@KingLiopleurodon Hi! Thanks for the words of support re Ventolin. LOL. He is truly infuriating and best ignored really. I fear that others on there believe the crap he spouts if he says it often enough.
Yeah, I think Coe got into some very good form late in 78, after a couple of spells of injury mid summer. Interestingly, he tried to get to run in that epic 2 mile run at the same meet, according to his bio, but either Andy Norman or Ovett kept him out of the race.
deano27671 2 days ago
So, he was stuck with the 800. That would have been a fascinating match up, as 2 days later Coe also beat Rono convincingly over 1 mile, and a month after that he beat Coghlan, Mcloud and Foster's record by 9 secs in a 4 mile road race in 17:54. The first signs of what was to come the following summer!
deano27671 2 days ago
@deano27671 I wonder how he would've done had he been in that 2 mile. I strongly believe he would not have won, but might have posted something like 8:20 In his 81 or 84 form he might have done some damage.
7agneskickingbird7 1 day ago
@7agneskickingbird7 I wouldn't say he'd have won, but I think he'd have been a lot closer than you think. Although a WR at the time, 8:13 is only worth around 7:40 for 3000m. Coe only ran in pretty slow tactical races indoors over 3k, and a 7:54 pb on the tight wooden boards of Cosford must have been worth 7:48 on a synthetic 400 track, and that was in March.
deano27671 1 day ago
Oct 78, Coe beat Coghlan (13:26 5k that summer) & McLeod (13:25) in a 4 mile race in Ireland running 17:54, which is equivalent to 13:50 5k pace for another mile. He also broke Foster's (the previous 2 Mile record holder at 8:14) course record by 11 secs. Foster had run that in 77 when he'd been a 13:21 runner on the track. Coe's endurance was heavily underestimated. An 800m man who could beat 13:20 runners over 4 mi was certainly capable of close to 7:40 for 3k & would have been a danger.
deano27671 1 day ago
@deano27671 I hope you don't think I was criticizing Coe's endurance at all. Not so. I just think that he wouldn't have won that 2 mile. I am well aware of some of the longer races he ran on road, one of which I think was a 7.5 km one at something like 13:46ish pace. I have no doubt that had he been in his 81 or 84 form he would've been right with Rono and Ovett with 200m to go and would probably outkick them in the home straight.
7agneskickingbird7 33 minutes ago
@KingLiopleurodon I believe Ventolin thinks that Ryun's time was a 3:24! I feel that 3:29.0 is much more reasonable.
7agneskickingbird7 1 day ago
Ah, the good old days, when you could dope up on cocktails of performance enhancing drugs that were undetectable. Lucky Lord Coe a man so obviously off his face, I remember one post race interview and his pupils were the size of saucers and he was dribbling, high as a kite! Now he wants life bans for anyone caught taking drugs and he's the most outspoken person in UK athletics about drug taking 'The Lady doth protest too much'.
Whatsitallabaaat 1 month ago
@Whatsitallabaaat Clearly you are ignorant of athletics from that time. Coe was the most tested athlete (over 200 times) of the 80's. What were all these "undetectable" drugs? The only undetectable one in recent times is EPO, which wasn't available before the mid 90's. Steroids were detectable and he would have been tested for them at every major Champs & after every world record performance.
deano27671 1 month ago
Moreover, UK athletes were subject to random out of competition testing from 81 & random out of season testing from 85, 4 years before the IAAF introduced similar world wide testing procedures. Coe hasn't just started calling for lifetime bans. He (along with ED Moses) was the first athlete to address the IOC congress in Baden Baden in Sept 81, calling for lifetime bans for any competitor caught taking drugs.
deano27671 1 month ago
He also carried out the research in his role as Vice President of the Sports Council, and published a document (with Lord Moynihan) in 1985, calling for a ban on blood doping in sport. His findings were taken up by the IAAF and implemented in 1986. So, you see that Coe has always been fervently anti- drugs and there is not an ounce of evidence to suggest that he ever used.
deano27671 1 month ago
@deano27671 I would have to say that Coe was clean. There were steroids that could've helped him recover from those hellacious sessions quickly, but the fact that he was constantly sick or injured and it took him a while to recover make me lean towards him being clean. Contrary to someone like El G who was never injured or sick and able to run sub 3:28 any day of the week. Again I would have to say that Coe was clean, but there is no athlete I would say for 100% certainty is clean or dirty.
7agneskickingbird7 4 weeks ago
@deano27671 While I agree with you, I wouldn't use Coe calling for lifetime bans and being fervently anti drugs as evidence that he was clean. There have been athletes that were dirty that were outspoken against drugs like Marion Jones, Carl Lewis, El G, Lance Armstrong etc. I still think he was clean, and would be surprised if it was found that he was doping. But like I said earlier, there is not a single athlete I will say for 100% certainty to be clean or dirty. Even my all time fav Jim Ryun.
7agneskickingbird7 4 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Thanks for messaging me. I find Ryun a fascinating figure, a decade or more ahead of his time. I just wish there was more video footage of some of his exploits, as some of his alleged splits seem unbelievable! Did you actually see his 36.7-36.9 in person!? Wow! If you saw it on video, I'd love to see it. Have to say I find 36.4 in a 3:38 almost impossible, although a 37 flat would be more believable.
deano27671 4 weeks ago
@deano27671 I saw the race on the tape "Jim Ryun: America's Greatest Miler", about a year ago. Had the last 450m. I had his last lap at about 50.6-50.8, the last 300 was a little hard to time, but somewhere in the ballpark of 36.7-37.2 (bit of discrepancy!) The supposed 11.6 down the backstretch was more around 11.9-12 flat when I timed it. If I ever come across the tape again i'll definately upload it. I think workouts like 40x400m,18x800m and 20x400m in 62 at 17 shortened his later career.
7agneskickingbird7 3 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Wow!! I'd love to see or get hold of that video. Can yoy buy it from the US?
deano27671 3 weeks ago
@deano27671 Despite being a big fan of Ryun, Ventolin's 3:24 he gives him is just silly.
Mid 3:28 maybe. He says in his book "In Quest of Gold", after a couple of workouts before the 72 Olympics he and his coach felt that he was in shape to run a 3:45-46 mile.
Your right, calling for lifetime bans while at the height of your career is enough to convince me. I just lol'ed pretty hard when I found out that El G's red ribbon he wore was to make a statment against EPO and hGH.
7agneskickingbird7 3 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Ventolin is clearly a creature of the 60's and would have everyone believe that all the athletes from that era were the best ever and capable of equalling or bettering today's standards. WR's are moving targets, so an athlete is conditioned to beat whatever the standard is in their era. From what Ryun DID, I'd say he was capable of something around 3:30 and 3:46 on synthetic tracks. Transfer his talent to today, and that would probably be faster. 3:24 is utter nonsense.
deano27671 3 weeks ago
@deano27671 Do you think Mo Farah and Galen Rupp are on something? They've both made pretty good improvements, but Salazar is known to use substances in the "grey area", so I don't know.
There is no doubt in my mind now that Bekele is doping. Injured for a year and a half, drops out at worlds at a slow pace, comes back three weeks later and pops a 26:43 with a 56 last lap. That recovery just seems to good. That and the fact that he is managed by Jos Hermens.
Cheers Deano/Epopians!
7agneskickingbird7 3 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 - I have always believed Bekele was using EPO. I have heard lots of things about Hermens which fail to reassure me his athletes are clean. I don't know a great deal about Salazar's set up in Oregon, but I believe Farah is dedicated and hasn't made the most of his talent in the past. I'd like to think he's genuine at this stage, as is Rupp. The WR for 10k should be in the 26:45 - 27:00 region by now. 26:17 is just plain silly!
deano27671 3 weeks ago
@deano27671 Happen to have Coe's 1:42.33. Only seen bits and pieces of it from Born to Run. Wasn't the third 200 in something like mid 24? Amazing that he could accelerate like after after a 50.5-.6 opening lap. The penultimate 200 in my 800's are usually the slowest for me, then I can pick it up a bit for the last 200.
Cheers Deano!
7agneskickingbird7 3 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Hi mate!
Yes I have Coe's 1:42.33. I'll download it on here the week after next, when I'm off work. His 3rd 200m was 24.8!
deano27671 3 weeks ago
@deano27671 Hey!
On a recent letsrun thread about El G being capable of under 3:25 at the 99 world champs, I noticed you mentioned that you could add about 2-3 seconds to a couple of athletes times to see what they were clean. I would personally add a few more seconds. You get a benefit taking EPO without even training and with training you can recover fast after grueling workouts. Maybe 4-5 seconds but that might just be me. I think El G was a 3:30-31 guy clean and Morceli probably 3:32.
7agneskickingbird7 2 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Cheers for that info. I don't doubt that you're right! I think EL G was a great athlete, but there is no way he was 3 secs better than the likes of Coe, Cram & Aouita. I think Coe had the potential of running 3:27.5-3:28.2 at absolute best with perfect pace and conditions. He simply never got these conditions & didn't run enough big 1500s on a circuit which wasn't like that of the late 90's.
deano27671 2 weeks ago
I thought maybe Morceli's 3:28.86 in 92 was legit and perhaps just before EPO came into common use, but wasn't so sure about his 3:27.37 three years later. Maybe you're right about him too!
deano27671 2 weeks ago
@deano27671 You may have a point about Morceli. Before 93 he didn't seem nearly as dominant and I remember watching some footage of the race on a CBC sports year in review and he actually looked knackered after he crossed the line whereas in his 3:27 he was all jolly faced. I have no doubt that the anemia he had in 97 was a direct result of EPO.
Of all the past 1500/Mile wr holders El G and Morceli were the closest to reaching their limits. Coe who rarely raced the mile certainly didn't.
7agneskickingbird7 2 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 I never knew he suffered from anaemia in 97! That's very interesting. I have no doubt that the majority of the 1500 (and distance runners) were on EPO from the mid 90's to 2004. I mean we had EL G, Ngeny, Lagat, Cacho, Baala, Komen, etc all running faster times than any one athlete has managed for the past 5 seasons! Cacho & Baala are nowhere near as talented as Ovett, Cram or Coe.
deano27671 2 weeks ago
@deano27671 Anemia can be caused by repeated EPO injections that aren't done quite correctly. El G, Cacho, Geb and Bekele had/have excellent medical support, Morceli trained alone with just his brother and didn't have the full backup.
I used to think that the real 1500m champ in 2000 was 5th place Kevin Sullivan (probably just my Canadian bias) but now I'm not so sure as he finished ahead of several dirty athletes and ran his best times in a pretty dirty era.
7agneskickingbird7 1 week ago
@deano27671 Sorry, just a quick question. Is Ventolin Kenyan? He always defends Kenyan athletes (I don't think they're all dirty) and other African athletes like his life depends on it. I got into an argument with him once telling him that Ngney and Komen were jacked to the limit and all I got back was, well, you know. Wondering if you know what nationality he is. Cheers buddy
7agneskickingbird7 2 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 Yes, he is Kenyan. He's a doctor (from his real name he sounds of possible Indian descent) who was brought up in Kenya. He does not like Coe as he sees him as a threat to the Kenyan dominance of 800m.
deano27671 2 weeks ago
@deano27671 Ventolin takes off up to 9 seconds off Ryuns 1500 and mile times and up to 4 seconds off his 800 but only knocks a couple of tenths off Coe's 800, 1000 and 1500. That Stockholm run in 81 I'm guessing was probably around 3:28.5 if everything went alright. Put him on the Rieti track or the one in Brussels with his own army of rabbits and sub 1:41 and 3:28 would probably be a reality. For Ryun I think 1:42.5, 3:29.0 and 3:45-46 are more reasonable. Certainly not high 1:40
7agneskickingbird7 1 week ago
@7agneskickingbird7 I think you're pretty much spot on for both athletes. I think when Coe's Stockholm run was "evened out" for economic pacing (went to 3:30.6) and lack of drafting (had none from 200m to end, but only taken up to the bell) we get 3:28.3. His Rieti run in 86, when just past his absolute best, of 3:29.7 (54.0, 58.0, 56.1, 41.6) also works out at 3:28.3 when evened out for economic pacing and lack of drafting on the 2nd lap.
deano27671 1 week ago
He also had to slow slightly at bell when Cheshire ran in front and slowed it down, causing Coe to run wide to get round him on the bend. He believes that cost him up to half a second and the then world record. I'd say if Coe in 81 (or possibly late 84) had even pacing on the Rieti track to the bell (a la what EL G often had) with say 55.5, 55.5 (1:51.0), 56.0 (2:47.0) and someone like Cram or Ovett on his shoulder with 300m to go, he could have run just under 3:28.0.
deano27671 1 week ago
Ventolin's problem is he is far too generous with conversion from cinders to synthetic. I've had this conversation with Mel Watman & Peter Matthews, both statisticians (compile World ranking lists) & were there in the 60's watching Ryun. They say that on a wet day at White City (London) a long distance race of 5000/10000m might be affected by 1.0 sec per lap, but that a place like California on a warm sunny day with freshly laid cinders, a 1500m may only be affected by no more than 0.5 per lap.
deano27671 1 week ago
@deano27671 No way El G was 3 seconds faster than Coe or Cram despite having significantly slower leg speed. My guess is that the EPO and hGH he (and many others) were on wouldn't kick in at 800m but probably later on in the race. I think that the era of milers like the british trio was probably the last of the clean or somewhat clean era of miling.
7agneskickingbird7 2 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 I concur. It just doesn't compute that an athlete (Lagat) can run a 3:26 for 1500m but is unable to break 1:46 for 800m despite many races at the the distance on the circuit. Even Scott & Walker could run 1:45 & they were 5 or 6 seconds slower over 1500m!! The fact that EL G NEVER contested 800m at all in any European race, which almost all great 1500 runners have done, even for just speed work, only makes me more suspicious. That 1:42 TT was a pure myth to detract from this.
deano27671 2 weeks ago
@deano27671 I also noticed one point you brought up on another recent thread. About milers secondary event usually being the 800, then in the EPO era they all seemed to lack that 800 speed yet had exceptional endurance. While I think you may have a point, sprinters like Jones and White were on EPO because they said it helped them recover super quickly from heavy training. EPO doesn't help your speed, so maybe the milers didn't do much speed training and instead did lots of endurance work? Cheers
7agneskickingbird7 2 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 I hear what you're saying, but he went a lot further than saying drugs are bad and that athletes should be punished if caught in an interview. Almost all athletes asked those sort of questions would say that. He actually addressed an IOC congress and called for much harsher penalties than were then in place. He called for a "life ban" in 1981.
deano27671 4 weeks ago
The chance of being caught if he were doping, however slight, would surely not be worth taking having put his neck on the line, especially if he had political aspirations. It would only take one witness or a positive test to totally ruin both his athletic career and any future political one. Moreover, it wasn't just rhetoric, he actually instigated the passing of legislation against blood doping within the IOC and IAAF while still competing. He actually put his money where his mouth was.
deano27671 4 weeks ago
@deano27671 Do you have any more videos? Like Coe's 11.3 last 100 at the
Europa?? cup semi. That has to be one of the best kicks ever along with Ryun's apparent 36.4 last 300 in 67. More like 36.7-36.9 when I saw it one time. Coe and Ryun are my two favorite middle distance runners, I would rate Coe as the best ever and Ryun about 5th behind Snell, Ovett and Cram. Cheers Deano!
7agneskickingbird7 4 weeks ago
@7agneskickingbird7 I have got a lot of his races, most in fact, with a lot on here. Most of the others I have are races on here by other posters. Unfortunately the 11.3 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup semi I don't have! It's one I'm still on the lookout for. I do have his 11.9/24.1 finish in the 79 Europa Cup final 800m and his 11.9 last 100m in the 81 Europa Cup final. The 12.0/24.7 last 100/200 in the World Cup 800 final of 81 is on here. Let me know of any others.
deano27671 4 weeks ago
You gotta let them post the time if you run a video like this
cegtown 1 month ago
@cegtown Not sure what you mean!?
His final time here was 1:43.97, beating Ovett's UKR of 1:44.09
deano27671 1 month ago
the famous Coe purple shirt or is it aubergine , cram had the jarrow gold and ovett had the russian red. incredible stuff all these downloads from you and arrisisipy. keep em coming.
markgregamy 5 months ago
Nice one! I think it was this race that made me realise Coe was in for the long haul. It's a pity about the quality,but a lot of evening meets from that era seemed to have suffered the same fate...maybe something to do with the film stock they used at the time?One dy the BBC will give their whole film archive over to be digitally cleaned up,but until then this is great! Thanks.
ARRISIPPY 5 months ago
@ARRISIPPY I've got the earlier UK record from Brussels 78, which is of a slightly better quality. I'll work on that one next. I've also just uploaded Ovett's 74 European 800 silver (last 200m) and European Cup 1500 gold (last 450m) from 1977. Glad u liked it.
deano27671 5 months ago