Superhero Rewind: Superman 2 The Donner Cut Review

[MasterEliteSamChief]

This is how I set up the Superman movies; I, II RD, II RL, than on one side of the split it's R, on the other part of the split it's III, & than IV. 1, both 2s, and Returns are masterpieces!

[qwuezalothus]

Only Superman 1. and this are worthy cinemas for the name Superman. Everything else is trash.

Hopefully this will change in 2013.

[waffles497]

I would have ended this film by having the daily planet scene at the end transition immediately into superman bringing the flag to the white house. That would have made much much more since and have no plot holes.

[dmenace4life]

Donner got screwed! 

[MrSharon783]

i think that lester's version is better .

[astrostar49]

In any case I always found the time traveling thing very lame. Any time something very bad happens he could just go back and time and fix it.

[astrostar49]

Wait, how would Lois have survived the first movie if Superman didn't turn back time? I know that Donner would have had that scene in the second movie alone, but if that is the case then how would Superman have saved Lois the first time had he not done some kind of time traveling?

[1517CalvinMartin]

@astrostar49 As originally intended, Lois doesn't die in I. Superman gets to her in time and saves her, hence Superman doesn't spin the earth back. The time travel bit was always originally intended for the end of II. I wonder how Donner and Mankiewicz would've ended II had they come back to finish II. Would they have still used the amnesia kiss or something else.

[Smee319]

I don't believe that Lester was brought on in order to make the film more lighthearted and jokey. The early drafts did have a campier tone, but the real reason the Salkinds fired Donner was because they didn't get along. Lester, as a director, is someone who had a strong reputation for being a talented filmmaker, but he had a cynical edge to him that Donner lacked. To his credit, he directed some very touching scenes between Kidder and Reeve.

[MrBN38416]

I'll take the 3.5 out of 4 for your review.

[johnnyrockerfella]

im surprized that the poliitcally correct crowd havent tried to cgi... the marlboro trucks .. 

[SkulloMac]

Thats hilarious that the people in the diner were in their own bubble cocoon unphased by the world spinning, SNAFU to say the least. Clark going back there afterward proves his desire for human flaw as whats more american than true badass arrogance? Kicking the shit outta a hillybilly redneck trucker was just as good as the ending with the american flag on the white house being reset anyhow, he might as well had a cheerleading squad behind chant "Thats right! Superman, BITCH!!"

[dahlrich99]

yep, as good as a director as lester was, donner's WHAT IF, incompleted version is better than lester's completed polished cut

[morebeerful]

will you do the 1943 batman serial and the 1948 superman serial

[thesyfychannel15]

1:05 - Agreed.

1:30 - "Characterisation comes first and superpowers come second" Indeed.

1:58 / 2:41 - The opening of Lester's cut looks like something you'd find in a TV series, not a Superman film.

7:51 - Superman I really should've ended on a clifhanger.

9:56 - Lester's cut can kiss my ass, this is the true Superman II.

[CubbieBear1980]

just with a minor nitpick (or maybe a legit complaint, you be the judge) the whole thing Lois 'fooling' Superman by 'shooting' at Clark with a gun to prove her theory. NO doubt Superman would have KNOWN that it was a blank via any few of his super senses that you'd like to referrence in use to do such a thing. See we so often (prolly over thinking this) think of Superman's powers as ony strength & violence but to be him Ud instantly have sensory OVERload; think DareDevil awaking in the hostpital

[dstebbin]

6:19

I just got finished watching that scene for the first time, and I think I have an explanation for it.

Jor-El enclosed a portion of his life force in the green crystal, hence how he was able to talk sentiently with Kal-El all this time, also why he said Kal-El would never be alone, at the beginning of the first film.

In this scene, the rest of Jor-El's lifeforce was absorbed into Kal-El's body, making him Kryptonian again, hence why he said he would die afterwards.

Thoughts?

[Geekvolution]

@dstebbin I just watched that again recently myself, and I think you're right. Even so, it's not clear enough for an audience on first viewing, especially when people like us, who know something about Superman already, have to explain it to each other! Well explained, thank you.

-CL

[dstebbin]

@Geekvolution "Even so, it's not clear enough for an audience on first viewing"

Well, it was clear enough for me on MY first viewing!

[Geekvolution]

@dstebbin Oh, well cool!

-CL

[wherewhenwhat]

@Geekvolution It really still seems like the Lester version is superior to this. Even with the campyness. The Lester version had a stronger ending despite the unbelievable magic kiss. Reversing times was a cop out the first time. The father son element while interesting, isn't as crucial as your making it seem. and Its good to see Superman's mother have a chance. The whole repowering scene although vague,was more dramatic in the Lester version. Sorry Donner.

[qwuezalothus]

@wherewhenwhat

It really still seems like the Donner's version is superior to this. Even without the campyness. The Lester version had a more patriotic ending despite the unbelievably shitty magic kiss. Reversing times was done by fury out the first time. The father son element while interesting, is more crucial than the studio ever let it be before. Superman's mother was a selfish bitch. The whole repowering scene's also epic, was more dramatic than in the Lester version. Sorry MoLester.

[wherewhenwhat]

@qwuezalothus i respectfully disagree , i think the repowering scene was more dramatic in the Lester version with only that single glowing crystal.

[moviereviews4life]

@Geekvolution Well I do believe that's the whole reasoning, we've already seen that the Crystal are more than just a way to lok back at his origins, but they had some great power. I think when we see Christopher Reeve shaking violently after Jor-El touches him was supposed to have an added effect showing his life force being absorbed into Clark

[Vader47000]

I think the idea behind Jor-El restoring the powers is that he is transferring all the energy of the fortress into Clark. Remember, he tells Clark that it will be the last time they speak. So after that he destroys the fortress because it's kind of useless

[Vader47000]

I really like how the White House battle is much more menacing. You get more of Ursa's flirtatious nature, as she winks at a secret service agent before kicking him in the face.

A number of Donner's changes were good, but sometimes the equivalent scene in the Lester version was better. So I think the ideal Superman II falls somewhere in the middle. My version would include the missile at the beginning, the Brando footage, and the Lester ending with the kiss, which doesn't sacrifice the timeline

[Vader47000]

The main thing I don't like about the Donner cut is how much it seems like it's just Donner's ego on display, even though the real arrogance that comes through is on the part of editor Michael Thau, whose idea it was to piece this thing together. There seems to be an attitude that every single thing Lester did was bad. Not just a few scenes, but every single thing. So even alternate takes of Donner footage is used, simply because Lester chose the version to use originally.

[Vader47000]

I like the Eiffel Tower sequence as a standalone, but it makes a lot more sense for the nuke from the first movie to free the baddies. If you watch I and the theatrical II back to back, you see Superman throw a nuclear bomb into space twice within a half hour. Ironic in a way since one of the reasons the Salkinds went with the trip into fire reveal was that a gun had already been used in a major sequence in the first film.

[Vader47000]

The fact that they re-used the turn back the world ending here exposes the real deception of the Donner cut. Had he not been replaced he wouldn't have used that ending back then, so it's just a huge cheat. In order to say this is how the film was originally intended, they should have redone the first film to match. Since the ending was used in the first film, the memory kiss/American flag ending is better. The fact he turns back time so much essentially nullifies the whole movie.

[Vader47000]

Donner didn't use the turn back the world ending for one because of the studio. He did it because they didn't like the ending they had for one, and the project was so over budget that they had to finish the first one, so they figured the ending for 2 would work well for the first movie, so they decided to use it there and come up with a new ending when that got to that point in making the second movie. But they never did.

[redbaron932]

another good in depth review

[CubbieBear1980]

I'm confuuuuused as you are Capt. But for diff reasons. I"m not very familiar with these films at all minus memories from my childhood. BUt I DO remember for a FACT that Superman spun the world back around to go back in time b/c LOIS had DIED in the earth quake and was like buried in rubble or watever, so what were YOU talking about??? and why did you say you dont' know what it accomplished him turning time back?? You mentioned Lois' memory, but what about her death in the earth quake(??)

[Geekvolution]

@CubbieBear1980 Watch the Donner cut. I wasn't referring to time being turned back in the first film. It happens again in Donner's cut, as I explained in the review.

-CL

[reviewreviewer1]

@Geekvolution Great review a lot of detailed comments on more sophistication, better connection, to the first film, better conveyance of themes, better flow, less silliness, less plotholes, better conveyance of superpowers, better caracterdevelopment, and better narrative, espially the comment how they had her jump out of a window earlier.

[morebeerful]

are you going to do the superman and batman serials from the 1940's

[qwuezalothus]

Lester was a MoLester of Superman.

And Warner Brothers were a major skunkbar.

[Sydpart2]

Just finished watching it on the blu-ray, I agree with what you had to say about the whole rework the ending of the first film, but I find that the restaurant still makes sense with the time travel to a degree. The guy Clark beats up is just a jerk so it makes sense that he'd still want to fight him when Clark walked in, there's only one line that doesn't make perfect sense, "I just had this place fixed up" but that doesn't ruin it for me I guess

[karioka2]

@Sydpart2 it could make sense if you take into account that everyone gets nervous when there is gona be a fight, speciay if it is ur pace and u might say things like that out of nervousness and to make em rationalize... there could be plenty of more expoanations,.,

[Sydpart2]

@karioka2 yeah, it's weak rationalization at best and comes down more to mental gymnastics more than anything else but hey it does work still...I watched some of the extras on the bluray, they talked about the ending and it basically boiled down to Donner not wanting to use any of the other footage so they kept the turn the earth back ending...

[ShadowACE1998]

I totally agree with your assessment of the Donner Cut. Had it been completed the way Donner envisioned, the two movies would have felt like a big epic. I noticed (primarily with Zod and the M-16) that it seemed Donner was going for a much darker humor than the over-the-top "kneel before Zod!" humor Lester gave the sequel. Zod was still over the top, but Donner never let the audience forget that Zod was one bad dude.

[civillazer]

Damn.

[gonzomoya420]

for your next mission Captain: go get laid

over and out!

[mikesgtrs1]

I liked this version alot but felt there were more errors with the final moments of the film than letsers version . I felt the world spinning backwards thing was an off moment for me it didnt feel like it should of been there . The parts i loved were brando looking at lois with major disapointment after superman rooted her (hehehe)i thought that was hilarious and serious at the same time

[jrvenice1999]

Good review. 

[DOMuricu]

Excellent review...great work. Covered everything of significance (in a consice and fluid way) and really makes me want to go and rent the Donner version.

[onepiecefan74]

great review.

 your next should be "the crow"

[samh09]

Great review of a good movie. It makes me wish that Donner had done both movies.

[ryanthecalvinist]

I love the Donner Cut... BUT I would have gone with the Super Kiss and the ending scene at the white house. I know that wasn't part of Donner's vision at all... but it makes for a better story.  Louis dying is a FAR better reason to spin back time than just to protect his identity.

[qwuezalothus]

Zack Snyder saw what Donner did to Superman, and what Nolan did to Batman. The two main samples he can follow. I wish the bests for him, and furthermore: I wish Donner would go to see the movie in cinema and say: "Hm, this IS the modern Superman, great work."

[DavidFrommi19]

@qwuezalothus I hear you man but you forgot to mention Bryan Singer..... He has a 'perfect' vision for superman despite the heavy critics.. But i cant wait to see what snyder has to offer =)

[qwuezalothus]

@DavidFrommi19

Bryan Singer made big in the X-men.

[xJoeEDangerouslyx]

Not sure why everyone loves Superman 2 so much. It was NOT a good movie. Just watch it again. It does not hold up. It really doesn't.

[BoredSenseless80]

I'm glad someone gave this the review it deserved. Thank you. Also blame David & Leslie Newman for the comedy of Lester's II and III. I'd hate to have read the camp script Richard Donner first received before the Mankiewicz re-write with Donner's vision in mind. Superman should never be a joke but there is no harm in a little humour. I love Hackman's restored performance here. Loyalty was key to the inferiority of Lester's cut - no Mankiewicz or Hackman! Remember the awful Luthor VO in II.

[machanalan]

going to see it in glasgow on the big screen on tuesday

[Geekvolution]

@machanalan Very cool! That should be quite an experience.

-Captain Logan

[machanalan]

@Geekvolution cant wait on a big screen it blows you away , it certainly did when i went to see superman 1 in a cinema 32 years ago aged 9 lol

[TheDalinkwent]

@Geekvolution, Most of Hackmen's scenes were cut out of the Lester version because he protested the removal of Donner, he refused to shoot any additional scene's or reshoots, that's why there's so many stand in's used for Gene later in the movie.

[qwuezalothus]

@Geekvolution

At least there's one big difference between the two movieendings: Kal-El didn't know, that his abilitys were on THAT high level, that he can actually reach and surpass the speed of light. He did it by blind anger the 1. time.

Einstein thought time slowes down, when an object movies with lightspeed in a certain direction. Donner must've thought: if a big object such as Earth has a certain direction, making it move in opposite direction would turn time back. Interesting idea.

[Gazarama7279]

@machanalan Same! It's the first time ever shown in a UK cinema, and Mark Millar is introducing it so it should be awesome!

[qwuezalothus]

This franchise cries for a reboot.

Next year, it gets it.

[Baddab35]

I do prefer most of Donner's work for this movie, however I do feel that the part where lois shoots clark (ok blank) makes no sense. As surely Superman would realise that the gun had no bullets. If it was that easy to work out who he is everybody would know he's Clark/Superman. Hence why Clark tripping (on purpose) putting his hand in the fire work (lester's cut) cause he wanted to confess to lois who he was (just like in Superman 1).

[AlwaysSomething]

@Baddab35 Technically, you can say that Superman would "see it coming" the entire movie. I don't believe Lester took the material seriously. That's evident in Superman 3, There are awesome Superman scenes in 3 and I still love that movie bec of Superman/Reeve, Lester made cheese and killed the franchise for so many people. Superman 1&2 were outstanding because of Donner and crew.

[AlwaysSomething]

This is the most logical opininated review of this movie. There are people that are so stuck on the first version, because it's all they know, but I think this movie is far superior in almost every way. Had Donner been able to continue, we would have had a great Superman 3,4,5, etc. Donner cared greatly for this material and it comes across that way on the first film. The original 2 got really cheesy in parts and the villians weren't threatening at all. So glad this is out as a Superman fan

[sfighter991]

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree.

When I think of "Superman II", I say Richard Lester's Cut is superior. One alot of the scenes were a little more effective and acting was impressive. I just did'nt like the ending used, mainly becase to me it was a cop out, at least the Lester version went for something different, which is good.

[LinkinTrapt1]

This is a message for whoever replaced Donner: You are hated for ruining what could have been te greatest 2-part epic in film history.

[samh09]

@LinkinTrapt1 It was Richard Lester who replaced Donner. If you watch the DVD, Lester was a go between Donner and The Salkinds as the first two movies were being filmed because tensions between them had risen due to the fact that the movies weren't finished, the studio was breathing down The Salkinds necks, and they were way over budget. So Donner was forced to stop filming the second one and finish the first one.

[qwuezalothus]

@LinkinTrapt1

Great comment. It feels like if I said it.

[zombiefan011]

@LinkinTrapt1 his name was Richard Lester he would go on to direct both Superman 3 and 4 and we all know how that turned out

[EricBTXC]

@LinkinTrapt1 Should it be The Salkinds or Richard Lester fault?

[donkeyballs1234]

I'm also glad, Lester didn't include Marlon Brando's scenes in the movie. The prick wanted 11% of the gross of the movie. Who does he think he is? For some crappy halographic scenes that he's in? Also, the acting in the scenes that were from Donners cut is so cheesy and terrible. When i first heard about Donner's cut i was exctied about watching it. Now that i have seen it, i'm glad it never made it as the original. And for anybody to give Donners cut a good review is an idiot.

[ThatAnimalGuy]

@donkeyballs1234 i know stupid Brando ruined it, but to me Kal-El's mom there just doesn't make sense. Jor-El was the scientist, he built the ship, why would his wife be on the recording? Plus it was Jor-El in the first one so its better to have continuity. Plus lester gave superman new, stupid, and unrealistic powers such as the cellophane S

[donkeyballs1234]

Thank god this version never made it to theaters. I would have been traumatized as a child watching this crap. Why would lois in her right mind jump out of a freaking window just because of a hunch. This blows my mind. That has to be one of the stupidest and far fetched scenes i have witnessed in my entire life. At least with Lesters Niagra Falls scene it was more realistic. Also, why would Lois, want to even point a gun and pretend to shoot Clark. Both Scenes make her look like a psycho

[AlwaysSomething]

@donkeyballs1234 Dickballs, this wouldn't have been the version to make it to theaters. You are comparing two movies that both directors had a piece in. Have you listened to anything the reviewer said? Donner would have shot stuff over, the ending would have been different, they rushed through to get 1 out. This is not the movie Donner would have made, it's just as close as it gets with the footage they have. Get over yourself.

[LyricalXilence]

@donkeyballs1234 Probably for the same reason she jumped into a waterfall in the Lester version, on a hunch.

[PRPHD]

I like the Donner Cut, because of the more serious tone and effects in this one, albeit I think Lois jumping out of a skyscraper is much more unintelligently funny than jumping two feet into some rapids in the Lester cut. Still not a big fan of either cut as the movie always felt like there's two directors with two different parts of the film.

TERRANCE STAMP!!!!

[jointron33]

The special effects arent as bad in this one?

[Ashwgun]

great job, Donner is so much more superior, and I wish the tools hadn't removed him from the 2nd film or toyed with it!

[theRealPlaidRabbit]

I keep wanting to ask those giant floating Jor-El heads:

"Why does God need a starship?"

[ironhandz1]

@theRealPlaidRabbit Haha! LMAO

[bluedragonfive]

about the diner scene at the end,there is a possibilitty rocky the truck driver regularly causes trouble at the diner,also I think when jor-el appeared he enfused the crystals powers in clark restoring his powers,preventing further use or communication,however it doesnt connect with the other films,but this version explains the kid in superman returns.

[JerkyChid]

Sounds like if I had seen this instead of the other version I would've liked it and thus I would only hate 2 out of 4 Superman movies

[ShadesAtKnight]

Completely agree. It really does bother me though, that Superman spins the world backwards, making it as if the film never even happened. I really hate that. However, This version is still superior to Lester's film in almost every way. Great review Cap.

[Snaiword]

music is better too (fo example when Superman Returns wiith the powers again. It's more like: "oh oh, 3 VS. 1")

[stitch99]

I thought the implication of the dinner scene (as well as Lois making slight deja vu about the North Pole) was that, somehow, some memories of that other timeline are carried over into the new one. I don't really know how that works, but that's what I got out of it. If you're familiar with Donnie Darko, think of how several characters seemed to have memories of the other timeline at the end. It was somehow like a dream to them. I can't explain it any better but there you have it.

[blowshimselfupdude]

I just watched this the other day.

[nightwing4077]

This verson of Superman II Donner did is better than the crap Lester did. This is so far my favourite Superman movie so far.

[redsoxfan3418]

I love the Donner cut. I can't even watch the original anymore.

[russkeller]

I dunno man the only ending I can think of worse than the magic kiss is spinning earth backwards and time runs in reverse instead of wreaking the place. I'm actually surprised more people don't have a bigger beef with that when I rewatch superman I don't watch the end.

[BKcritic]

another great review! ive never seen this cut, i have to