"War in S. Ossetia closed NATO doors to Georgia"

[vendetta007mike]

Saakashvili is a sucker. What was he thinking when he was provoking Russia? Or better, what was he drinking? Because only idiots with such ignorant armies like his, could do suck foolish thing against a country which has to sneeze on the enemy like this to win the war.

[cerritoboy]

Fuck Sakaashvili and Georgia!! You deserve it haha!!

[Igor707]

Massive attack with heavy artillery and killing of thousands of civilians in the middle of the night (at the eve of Olympics 2008 in Beijing) in the capital of the region Georgia wanted to grab is a war crime which closed doors for Georgian territorial integrity for good.

Georgia itself is a victim of the western imperialism which has been using it as a tool for destabilizing Russian neighborhood and undermining Russia.

[TamaraGeorgianQueen]

150 civilians died during the hostilities.

[hosank]

1- low level fighting had been going on for at least a week before georgia invaded. 2- the number of casualties is way too inflated. less than 200 s. ossetians were killed or missing, 3- i see georgia, as well as every other country bordering russia is a victim of post-soviet imperialism, russias so-called "backyard"....so blehhh

[AsgerAZ]

Hmmm, like Azerbaijan too....

So you support us, Armo? :)

[FreedomOfSpeech555]

AsgerAZ, shame on you, instigator.

[hosank]

no, its not the same. generally i support the will of a people, who constitute a nation, and a majority inside established borders to run their own affairs (such as artsakh)...but not when they were less than 30% and ethnically cleansed 300 000 of the rest in order to do so, and not when it is an obvious political ploy by larger powers...

[Armenia1918]

If you are referring to the Abkhaz, yes they did drop down to 30% but not historically. Abhazia (Apsua) was an ancient kingdom with its own distinct Abkhazian population. The Abkhaz also tolerate minorities like the Armenians, who along with the Abkhaz were attacked by Georgian forces in 1992 and had to take up arms to defend themselves. Again I am not the one stating anti-Georgian sentiments, but it is exactly what Georgians have done and are doing with their "Georgia for Georgians" policy.

[hosank]

right, back then abkhaz were much more, till 3/4 were forced to move to turkey by none-other than the russians (ironic). as for tolerating armenians, that isn't true, i have friends from there. put it this way, armenians make up more than 1/3 of the population, yet they only have 2 deputies in parliament, and are routinely discriminated against. and YES gamshaxurdian georgia made lots of mistakes i don't deny it, but there is no doubt that russia "amen xarnec"

[Armenia1918]

That was because of the wars with the Ottoman Turks. Many of these Abkhaz from Turkey fought with Russians and Abkhaz during the 1992 war.

I also have number of friends there and they are in very good terms with the Abkhazians.

You are right about Gamsakhurdia's wrong policies, but Saakashvili in many regards continuing them, you have to realize that there is A LOT of Georgian chauvinism in Georgian towards its minorities, including Armenians. This is today's reality in Georgia.

[hosank]

i agree 100% about sakaashvili's missteps in resolving the issue, especially when being so obviously played by moscow. and i also agree that georgia has had some issues with its historic minorities, but in the longrun, if georgia can solve that, there may be long-term peace (which would be irreconcilable in the armeno-tatar conflict lets say)..but the thing is this i ssue is larger than georgia-abkhazia, since russia playes into it in order to maintain power hegemony in the region

[Armenia1918]

Indeed, if Georgia can solve it and its minorities are not threatened, I am not against the integrity of Georgia, but as of now Georgian government has utterly failed and its policies of forced assimilation and "Georgification" have backfired. Saakashvili and before him other Georgian presidents were responsible for this first and foremost, they did not change their policies as they turned more and more militant.

[hosank]

again, i also agree that georgia has been a troubled country for the last few decades, and this has been reflected in its policies towards its minorities. basically, georgian officials need to stop seeing its historic minorities as "fifth colomns" of foreign interest, or face a self-realising prophessy. the issue however is much greater since russia sees suxumi, tskinvali and tiflis as nothing more than pawns in a wider attempt to re-ignite a cold-war between "east" and "west"

[Armenia1918]

If Georgia would remain "neutral" whatever that means Russia would not be worried that much. But Georgia is openly pro-Nato and anti-Russian. That is what troubles Russia because Nato is not a "neutral" party and clearly has an agenda. Russian leadership has said it time and again that if Georgia or even Ukraine for that matter would not align themselves with a force that is viewed as a perceived threat Russia would not interfere because you are right there is a bigger fight here.

[hosank]

ok, but still georgia's aim for nato is the result of some 200 years of mistrust for russia. it sees nato as a guarentor. in effect, georgia is playing a political game which is not-unlike the one played by armenia, that is, opposition to the turks by aligning with russia. the reality is that there is no such thing as "neutrality" in the caucasus, leaders of small countries feel themselves to be pawns of larger powers in the region, which personally i find quite sad

[Armenia1918]

Yes, and in this light the Armenian historic alliance with Russia (which goes back to the Byzantine times) has withstood the test of time.

Georgia wants to be in a military alliance with Nato and Turkey, our arch enemy. Georgians do not have the conflict and issues that we have with Turkey, so perhaps they are thinking they can do so. However the recent war only showed that Georgia has actually seriously hurt its chances of ever becoming a Nato member, although they have not learned sadly.

[AsgerAZ]

You said that nations bordering Russia have always suffered and that Abkhazia and Ossetia are something created by Russia.

Azerbaijan borders Russia too and Armos inside Azerbaijan (Karabakh) have been created by Russia too, right? Yeah, we share the same fate, right?

[Armenia1918]

Wrong, Azerbaijan is the historic name for an IRANIAN province which was NEVER NORTH OF ARAX RIVER. Even taking up that name will not change historic reality. You know this, your homeland is in Altai and NOT Armenian Highland and Caucasus.

[Armenia1918]

What about NATO imperialism when they broke their own "defensive charter" and attacked Serbia?

The victims of Georgian imperialism have been Ossetians and Abkhazians that do not want to be part of Georgia and who have been forcibly integrated into Georgia.

Georgians not only admit that these people live on their own land, but also deprive them of their historic and cultural heritage, just like they do this to Armenians who have built up Georgia including the Georgian capital.

[hosank]

1- i never said NATO was good, i just said putinist russia was bad. 2- yes georgians don't have a great track record with minorities, but russia is CERTAINLY not helping by spending millions on anti-georgian propaganda within the secessionist republics, and arming them. after all, it is no secret that russia cares little about georgians, ossets or abkhaz, but sees all of them as pawns in some sort of "new great game" with with the west, russia is a country which can't deal with the fact that ..

[Armenia1918]

That is how it works, it was NATO who kept encroaching more and more upon Russia's borders. The reality is if Russia does not take a stand it will be DIVIDED into several regions. You are criticizing Russia for defending itself.

Remember Russian troops left Eastern Europe only to have MORE NATO troops which if you ask many average Europeans they do not want to see in their countries.

[hosank]

well if that is criticism of russian self-defense, we can argue that georgia's actions WITHIN ITS OWN BORDERS are also self defense against foreign russian agressive stances. in my opinion NATO's purpose has ceased to exist anyway, and like all organisations that fail to die, they try to create new reason for life, just like the CSTO, personally i would rather see european countries working together and not fighting a second cold war

[Armenia1918]

Abkhazia withdrew before the coming about of Republic of Georgia in accord with the Soviet constitution, same with South Ossetia. These are legal aspects, but more importantly as I said bottom line, both of these peoples do not want to be part of Georgia.

Again remember that Georgia began military actions when these two peoples spoke of democratic self-determination.

[hosank]

no abkhazia invoked the soviet charter in 1993 (after the fall of the USSR). but legal or not, such countries ESPECIALLY s. ossetia cannot survive on their own. at least abkhazia has a sea, and is the cheap version of socci for overpayed moskovayit oligarchs, but s. ossetia has NOTHING and was a known trafficing centre. traditionally it is true that they feared georgian cultural assimilation, but as a result they have given into russian assimilation. how many abkhaz speak abkhaz?

[Armenia1918]

There were clashes already in 1989 and Abkhazians already spoke of their desire for independence. Wrong or right (and I feel rightly) they feel that Georgians throughout the Soviet era and even earlier had deprived them of their cultural identity.

I think the Abkhaz will restore their cultural identity, they just need time and not be pressured into becoming "Georgians."

They are not, they are distinct people with rich heritage of their own.

[hosank]

granted, but then again, inter-ethnic clashes were quite common throughout the former soviet union, from moldova to turkmenistan. and i do agree, and have said that the abkhaz historically feared georgian cultural domination, and it IS true that georgian mentality towards the resolution is lacking in logic necessary to end it (a georgian girl once told me the abkhaz were actually a group of georgians etc..) but the reality is that assimilation into 120 milion russian swould be harder than 4 mil

[Armenia1918]

Believe me it does, they even attacked Armenians in Abkhazia who otherwise would never join the conflict. When Armenians fought back to defend their lives and property, the Georgians began to bemoan why Armenians are fighting on the Georgian side.

It is this type of illogical and utterly arrogant and chauvinistic attitude (that Georgians act upon and LATER vehemently deny) that is not helping the situation, but quite to the contrary is in fact destroying Georgia.

[Armenia1918]

meant to say "on Abkhaz side."

[hosank]

well to be precise, it was mostly gamshaxurdia militias that attacked armenians in abkhazia, mostly under consideration that, "if you're not georgian, you're an abkhaz sepratist". but in fairness many armenians were also killed by abkhaz, including the community leaders. and yes, i agree with you that georgia did not properly conduct the wars in 1994 (including its own civil war at the same time)..but armenians were cought in a conflict that didn't concern them

[Armenia1918]

This is not so, I never heard of Abkhaz attacking Armenians. I have been to Abkhazia and Armenians are in very good relations with the Abkhaz people.

It was regular Georgian army that attacked Armenians and started killing Armenians. There is even an interview by the then Georgian defense minister who says he will turn Abkhazia into graves of Abkhazians and all those Caucasians that have come to their defense.

[Igor707]

1 - NATO countries recognized illegal secession of Kosovo from Serbia after they illegally bombed Serbia all that BEFORE Russia regnozed S. Ossetia.

2 - Even after NATO countries made a precedent by recognizing Kosovo Russia still gave Gerogia cahnce to settle te conflict peacefully

3 - Russia insisted that Georgia signs legally obliging document not to use military force and Georgia officially REFUSED that proposal

4 - Georgia attacked S. Ossetia and killed thousands of people

[hosank]

1-, i never said that nato's actions are right. but just because nato does stupidities does not give russia the green light to do the same. 2- the recognition of kosovo as independent by the west was a political move, and in my opinion was not justified, but why does russia recognise s. ossetia and abkhazia, and not Karabakh which is the only one who deserves it. 3-russia used force in chechnya in a way even georgians cannot imagine, 4- 200KIA max, and s. ossetia is not part of russia so ...

[Armenia1918]

The War in Chechnya was brutal, but you know what would have been even more so? If there was an actually Muslim fundamentalist "Emirate of Caucasus" set up carved right out of Russia. I have nothing against Muslims and Islam, but I am against any kind of religious fanatical fundamentalism. It was these same people that came and fought Armenians in Artsakh, including Shamil Basayev - who lost because they were fighting native Armenians who were determined to fight to the death.

[hosank]

yes, but the muslim fundamentalists and saudi money only came in AFTER the end of the first war, when chechen fanatics were fuelled by crimes done by russian soldiers. had russia conducted the war within international norms of the geneva accord they would have more legitimacy. but call it what you will, you can't destroy a nation within your borders on the grounds that they are terrorists and support a similar conflict in a neighbouring country because they are "freedom fighters"

[fostereric]

sakashvilli should be tried for war crimes and executed

[MDSingerling]

So should Bush.

[AmericanN00B]

He should be put to jail for being an idiot.

[hosank]

as long as putin hangs next to him

[Konabis]

So sad))))