Thundersky battery failure in Bob Siebert's AC150 conversion

[coolerow]

you sound like Donald Sutherland

[MrEnergyCzar]

I'm getting a Volt so I only use 100 gallons of gas per year.....

[m1aws]

So lets hear this straight. This car has a mix of batteries. YOU CANNOT MIX THESE BATTERIES! BALANCE IS EVERYTHING!

The owner has never bottom balanced the Lithiums before charging proper.

Thundersky: LiCo? They don't make LiCo! The present ones are LiFePo4's and the next gen will be LiYt

Did you kill the thunderskys by overcharging or over discharging?

Lacking knowledge of anything always becomes an expensive problem. All I see is you blame others for your awful engineering expertise .

[Grimdopple]

@m1aws thats true, you should mix different batteries, but doesnt mean you cant. as long as you have a good bms then your fine. this video was made afew years ago when thundersky was more of a gamble then an investment, and only a123 had li-fe at the time, i believe.

[m1aws]

@Grimdopple No Bullsh*t Management Sh*ttup is ever required. There is not and never has been a major electric car man'fr which has ever used one. They cause fires!

Besides. A small battery will empty first. Then it will enter reverse voltage as the others gang against it.

No BMS will ever bring that back from the dead.

The best bet if unbalanced (On equal batts) is bottom balance and give 80% charge.

A good vid is on jack rickards blog. A prof tells how they work in deep detail.

[lostbuffalo]

since Patent privileges apply only to commerce it would NOT be illegal to sell components for people to manufacture their own Ni-Mh batteries as long as those components were not exclusively patented.

WHY?

Because patent Law only limits commercial use and manufacture of patented instruments and processes... not personal use and manufacture

[lostbuffalo]

Patent privileges do not even apply to personal use or manufacture or to research use and manufacture.

Patent privileges only apply to commerce.

[lostbuffalo]

Copyrights and Patent rights are priveleges.

Information is not natural property

No one has a natural right to prohibit anyone from using and enjoying information

Patents should be "use it or lose it"

Patent privileges are to protect the new ideas of inventors and developers so they can get investment to bring new ideas to production...the Ideas that BENEFIT SOCIETY.

Patent privileges. were never legislated to prohibit public enjoyment of new ideas.

[DanFrederiksen]

@blueberu no that's bullshit. evcomponents. com have problems. thundersky of course wasn't involved

[DanFrederiksen]

bms seems to be a cause of battery death more often than is known.

the cells might well have been perfectly fine.

did Victor from metric mind make this bms? he's now known for making stuff that isn't quite tested properly and when it fails he is not the kind to take credit..

[givemetoast]

So what's the bottom line liveoilfree; if buying a new pack today, which would you pick?

[liveoilfree]

The newer Li-Fe-PO version apparently works much better. But don't expect it to last much past 20K miles -- these are all short-term, niche non-solutions to the big issue: when are they going to RESUME producing EVs which last more than 100K miles on a battery pack.

[liveoilfree]

BTW, the battery experts in L.A. recommend Enersys lead-acid; while it won't last 100K miles, it's cheap and easily recycled. Exide Orbitals might be good, too, for high-performance EVs. Who knows, long-lasting Li might be made available some day.

[ez3usx2]

i wont be buying any batterys from them.thanks for the info!its good we have people out there like you who can help everyone.we can try what your doing or we can blow over 40 grand on a goverment motors(GM)chevy volt.i think id like a volt about as much as a pinto station wagon.

neil young is working on converting a lincoln.you can check it out on youtube type in lincvolt.

we need to support people like you and neil this is the only way research is going to be done.

many thanks

[ThalassTKynn]

TS seem to have improved their quality since this video was made, at least with their LiFePO4 cells. Judging by other EV converters using them, at least.

I'm still in the planning stages so it'll be a while before I by my own pack. Hopefully I won't have to wait 'till 2014 to get a decent pack. LiFePO4 seems good, if expensive.

[liveoilfree]

Yes, you're correct; in fact, Bob has replaced the Peak batteries with the newer TS batteries, and, thanks to some help from ACP, is up and running!!

[ndyt]

this is the nightmare of the EV battery manufacturers: creating and supporting a stable pack. Another thought: those leaked cells could be improper charging, chemistry, packing defect, or welding defect and after the fact it is difficult to tell which one.

Seems like getting a couple of Prius packs would be best. though they are about $3000 each.

[liveoilfree]

The Prius pack is only 1.3 kWh, and Toyota is forbidden (by Chevron) from apparently selling the superior EV-95 NiMH, which is still running fine on the RAV in the video.

[swbluto]

Thank you for contributing to the economic evolutionary process. Your feedback effects other customers who'll allocate their money to other companies who are "economically fitter" and, thus, "survival of the fittest" will leave better lithium companies more predominate.

[hayts333]

does anyone know how much lithium (LCE) is used in each battery and what spec it needs to be? Thank you

[pjd412]

Actually, I think the white Thunderskys are LiMn02 cells; the LiCoO2 cells have an orange case, and the LiFePO4's have a yellow case.

I'm mot having any problems with my sixteen LiFePO4 cells in an electric motor scooter. Which is also "hybrid" as it also has a pair of sealed lead acid switched on for more speed.

You must charge LiFePO4's to 3.7 volts per cell NOT 4.25 volts per TSs own literature. Only with stuff from China is the mfg's own product manual so often flat-out wrong!

[lazzer408]

Thundersky lost more money from this video then it would have cost them to replace the batteries. Companies are so stupid sometimes.

[madzyzome]

HAHAHA a chinese product that of low quality with a 20% failure rate? HERESY I SAY, HERESY!!! The chinese have "assured" us that all their products are safe and of the utmost quality. How could anyone dispute these truly heartfelt and honest comments?

[neoartifact]

Sunny the solar dog! ahahah woop woop! You guys are hilarious.

[liveoilfree]

My last trip to L.A., starting with 92% full, I drove 61 miles and returned with 43%. That's 49% to go 61 miles or more than an indicated range of 120 miles on a charge. Also, even when at "0%", there's another 15 miles range or so.

[usebah]

"How much better to have access to Nickel Metal Hydride non-toxic batteries" cough 'lower power/weight energy density' cough

[liveoilfree]

Actually, the 400 lb. VOLT Lithium battery pack has 16 kWh but only 8 kWh are useful.

That means a 400 lb. NiMH pack would have 12 kWh, more than twice the useful energy than the Lithium, and without the cooling system that the VOLT has.

And NiMH is cheaper, longer lasting, and proven in thousands of EV cars.

[ant1g3n]

I'm not quite sure you know what you're talking about.

The only reason the VOLT halves it's capacity is to give you thousands of cycles. NiMH won't give you near that many if you decide to go to use all 12kWh.

NiMH also produces more heat when being discharged.

Tell me, how is 12kWh more than twice the energy than 8kWh?

[liveoilfree]

Well, what are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?? We drive these NiMH batteries every day, and GM spouts these LIES that they don't last.

HINT: They were last sold in Nov., 2002, and still get more than 120 miles on a charge (almost 1000 lbs. of NiMH EV-95).

[liveoilfree]

I meant 50% more, thanks. But the Toyota RAV4-EV has more than twice the (effective) energy as the (supposed) VOLT.

[diggingforgold]

I challenge you to continuously deep cycle your NiMH pack without decreasing the packs life. You would be lucky to get 200 cycles before your pack craps out. I know you consciously don't deep cycle your pack. GM is simply making sure their drivers don't either.

Before NiMH came onto scene, Lead Acid was the only "proven" "cheaper" "longer lasting" battery. Give Li-ion a chance. It's already proven itself in consumer electronics and power tools. And it's still making advancements every year.

[liveoilfree]

We deep cycle it all the time. NiMH is long-lasting; we're not saying don't do Lithium, what we're saying is ALLOW someone to use NiMH!!

[diggingforgold]

EV-95 is only one format (and an old one at that), and only Toyota has been banned from using it. GM still takes orders for Chevron-patented NiMH batteries (over 2000 packs per month based on their weak hybrid sales). And there are a few large format NiMH manufacturers that sell their own format outside of Chevron influence. There is no patent suppression of NiMH. If the industry is going to spend money, the would rather spend it on a newer technology with more promise.

[liveoilfree]

You're completely and utterly WRONG, proveably IGNORANT. The settlement allows Toyota to make Pius packs but not "large format" EV-95. THERE IS NO EV-95 OR SIMILAR BATTERY FOR SALE!!!

[diggingforgold]

You're completely and utterly an ASS, proveably using a STRAWMAN argument.

There is nothing incorrect or ignorant about my previous comment. Toyota is banned from using EV-95 until mid-2010, and other companies like GM still use Chevron-patented NiMH batteries (Cobasys NiMHax is used in the Saturn Vue Green line hybrid). And Nilar is an example of just one company that sells large format NiMH batteries (bi-polar design is outside of the Chevron patent). They even sell modules to individuals.

[liveoilfree]

Actually, until 2014; you need to study. You can't use NiMH in plug-in cars!! Don't you understand that?? Nilar's "bipolar" battery has had problems in at least one plug-in application.

[fallingwater]

I'm familiar with the LiFePO4 chemistry, but what is a "LiFePTi" battery? I'm interested in batteries and frequent several forums with talk about them, but I've never heard this chemistry mentioned. I've searched and found no mention of them other than your paragraph (repeated elsewhere).

[liveoilfree]

It's the same thing with Titanium added and the "P" replacing "PO" which means "PO4".

[mikep95133]

Is there a BMS circuit connected to each of the Thundersky cells or each of the Peak modules? How deep of a discharge level did the owner take these cells/modules down to??

[terrorist420x]

Thundersky's first run of batteries sucked from what I heard. According to Victor Tikhonov, they've apparantly improved in quality after the initial complaints. Either way, an AC150 is WAY too much for them. Thunderskies have specific power comparable to flooded lead acid. You won't get more than about 60 peak horsepower from a 1,000 pound pack without killing them from what I understand.

[anewlow23]

hey Terrorist I tried to get a hold of you earlier have you heard about lionev and their lithium upgrade phev packs? Do you think those could be used for an all electric vehicle?

[aminorjourney]

Interesting. I have old (pre 2006) Thundersky cells in my car. The pre 2006 models have some reliability issues but I've heard that the latest ones are okay.

My current pack has big issues in the winter but in the summer they're fine. Zub 15 degrees C the things don't produce much current. The BMS I have really helps out though!

Do let us know what the resolution to this is. I'm guessing Bob won't be keeping the mispack forever.

[thubten2007]

Awesome video. This was truly fascinating. Keep up the great work. I learned about your video through the yahoo group [electric_vehicles_for_sale] Digest Number 1744.

[liveoilfree]

Commenting on youtube is not always easy. There are bugs.

[anewlow23]

What is your opinion of zivan chargers I have heard bad things about them? Any alternatives that would charge lithion ion? Where did you get the ac propulsion kit and how much did you pay?

[liveoilfree]

The Battery Management System (BMS) was designed for unbuffered Lithium Cobalt by the same folks who designed the BMS for the t-zero and Tesla.

[liveoilfree]

The Battery Management System was designed for Lithium by the same folks who designed the t-zero.

[Bogt]

What happened @ 3:40? Sounded a bit disturbing.

[Bogt]

Someone wrote a blog article on thundersky electric-echoDOTcom/blog/