Random Force & Brownian Motion - Sixty Symbols

[TheLightningStalker]

Brownie in motion is one of my favorite subjects. I like to study it as often as I can. I can tell you about my balls whizzing, but you probably don't want to hear about that.

[antiHUMANDesigns]

@wormguts Yepp, unless quantum mechanics is atcually correct, and that quantum events really are truly random, which I don't think. I'm a determinist aswell.

[htomerif]

I'm confused. I threw some math at it to see what stuck, and using 3000 grains per mg for pollen, you end up with a pollen grain being 1.1*10^16 more massive than a molecule of water. Wouldn't a single molecule of water "banging" into a pollen grain have to have an enormous velocity to make it move visibly even under a microscope? I mean, I guess not, but its still hard to understand.

[systematic101]

@htomerif It would be far more than just 1 molecule. Think of it like billions of nanoscopic waves crashing against the side of the pollen in all directions. The differences in the strength of the waves determine the direction the pollen will move.

[htomerif]

@systematic101 Thats what you would think, but this would imply some kind of larger order coordinated movement of molecules than simply on the single molecule level, even if the coordination is only for brief times and on microscopic levels. I would actually have a few questions about that to ask a physicist well versed in that subject, though I don't know any.

[FreeGluon]

Love the angry have I finished at the end!

[Esudao]

@gallardoelise where the layer of grains is thinner, more force from the bottom is distributed to the grain, so yes, the ball is more likely to jump in that direction.

and yes, if everything was perfectly aligned, probably the ball would stay in the center.

but for that to happen, every bump of every grain to it's surrounding grains and the bump from the plate onto the bottom grain would always have to be exactly like before, so the sphere's always hit each other in exactly the same spot...

[petkndy]

Is this not how Einstine prouved the existence of the Atom. ?

that the pollin grains were moved or agitated by the atoms or electrons of the atoms in the water moving (as they do).

[inventbyboonchai]

no need animations , no wind to blow balls , no vibration , no elastic band , let's see my invention , and this Brownian motion model is the future model . let's see it by click inventbyboonchai under this cooment

[Tiwaking]

This was wonderful. Thank you for this demonstration :D

[Cezarijus]

I get this but did not know that water vibrates like this ??? Looks still to me..

[Esudao]

@Cezarijus it does, but a small thing like a pollen seen under a microscope shows a similar movement. that's how they got the idea of the brownian motion of atoms in the first place.

[thirteenxxx]

and your point is?

[PaladinswordSaurfang]

5:15"then i will envoke quantum mechanics..." OWNED!

[damianpaz]

I think the little device used in this video is just an analogy of what happens at atomic levels. So far I know, there is no way to predict without uncertainty the behavior of particles at that scale, so, for all useful purposes you can safely say the brownian effect is random.

[telephone0890463733]

the white particle moved by vibration. it is not moving by process collision. so it is not Brownian Motion

[sidewaysfcs0718]

random is just a word we use

cus its very very very hard to predict how sand particle would move in the wind for example .....so its easier to call it random.

[wkrepelin]

Well, there certainly is a level of randomness. That's why I said "form of determinism" and not just determinism. It's deterministic in that objects are never measured to be someplace that the wave function says the probability of measurement is zero so that is deterministic. On the other hand there is no way of predicting from the models a deterministic means of knowing what any one measurement will give just that it will occur in a region of nonzero probability. This is true for macro as well.

[CrazyPerson03832]

These Videos make me smile and everytime I watch them I start regretting that I did reject nottingham :S

[YourBrainOnReligion]

i love that... 'and if my deterministic friends do that, i'll invoke quantum mechanics and that's that' hahahaha

BUT it is a fallacy, my friend. The quantum particles within a solid object are still held within that solid object, thus, invoking QM (I am pretty sure) is a false comparison. Within each of the little bb's one could never know the precise position of each particle, however, not the entire ball itself (otherwise the world would be chaos).

Right?

[wkrepelin]

@YourBrainOnReligion random events like dice rolling and granular material behavior can be traced from the quantum level all the way up. That doesn't mean events are random though. They are statistically distributed over well defined limits and that is a form of determinism. If physicits claimed that things were completely random how would they expect to have any predictive authority? It's because physicists believe reality is ordered and by certain laws not random.

[YourBrainOnReligion]

@wkrepelin Well that was my point precisely, actually. Sub-atomic particles on the quantum level act 'seemingly' at random - but not at the macro level. That's why I was thinking it was kind of a fallacious tactic...? (And I'm still not sure, it was more of posing a question than feeling like I've made any point in confidence..)

[jktcz]

Very cool! Except that pollen particles are not "molecules". Each grain is a large assembly of a variety of molecules.

[andytheweb]

I thought Brownian motion was motion that causes you to shite yourself :D hehehe!!!

[saeedsnne]

I LOVE SIXTY SYMBOLS!!!!

[loupax]

It's tiresome when people try to be smartasses by combining philosophy with science... "Actual random isn't real. I'm so effing clever that I showed I don't agree with you!"

Oh, and the important stuff. Great videos guys! I really the way you explain all these concepts without being boring!

My favorite symbol is φ. (pronounced "fi")

[ph11p3540]

I wonder how he made sure that the polystyrine ball did not have an electrostatic charge which might cause it to get attracted to something like glass. I am not a scientist but a sign maker who deals with this problem of static electricity on glass on a daily basis.

[TheToxicRadio]

hhhmmmm.... :-/ i feel like i'm not satisfied, i'll do some more research...

[shervin814]

Hello sixtysymbols,

I was wondering if you could provide the equations with which Einstein related Newtonian mechanics to thermodynamics. Thank you~

[berniebay]

He says Eta correctly. Huzzah!

[SM96UK]

its because these position of molecules in the air are random, so when the atoms vibrate they move around the larger molecules in the air like dust in a random motion. but that's my theory

[neverint]

then why doesnt this happen with humans in oceans

[samipso]

This is not actually random because the ball chooses a side right? If it was truly random shouldn't it stay somewhat in the middle because of the random forces canceling out each-other.

[TakesTwoToTango]

@samipso The ball is dead, it has no will, it doesn't choose anything. It's random. But if you have random forces acting everywhere, you have to account for the second law of thermodynamics and diffusion :s

[samipso]

@TakesTwoToTango Oh sorry i thought it was alive.

[StrongFatLonerGeek]

i think it seems random because of the electrons moving around the nucleuses of the atoms. its hard to predict, but if you could somehow figure out all the speeds and movements of the electrons in the atoms in the balls, you might figure it out by adding it up

[TakesTwoToTango]

I invoke quantum mechanics: Heisenberg's uncertainty principle sais you're wrong...

Well, it basically sais that you can never figure out both the momentum and the location of an object at a quantummechanical scale. Also, even if you did find all that, you'd still only be able to calculate it for hydrogen. Three-body problems can't be solved analytically.

[Prometheus722]

Invoke Quantum Mechanics!!!

[Kl4pp5tuhl]

Not sure if it is random, or simply the designated motion specifically for this universe.

[Vennificus]

he loves that frequency oscillator. Hell /I/ love that oscillator.

[TheLensmith]

"Have i finished," brought to mind Frankie Howard the comic asking the same question. Nothing to do with Brownian motion of course. I would have enjoyed a prof. such as this gentleman , his seminars must be fun as well as cutting edge.

Pollen is alive , it attacks me every year , it does as it pleases.

[kilohn]

Is this team working on granular media physics? You guys should do another video with them, there's tons of very neat experiments to show in there!

[WalterSolano]

...

[tac0pwnage]

reminds me of periodicvideos

[chrisofnottingham]

Einstein was into everything!

[gold3c]

I wish the explanations would be more indepth.

Like what are the constants he mentioned?

[sjsawyer]

Have I finished?

[quantumdude]

The use of "pollen molecules" is incorrect. Particles is more appropriate.

[FUGGINGMAD]

he's refering to robert brown's experiment, while carrying out his own experiment...

[quantumdude]

@FUGGINGMAD so ? Thats not my point. He uses the term pollen molecules which is innacurate.

[TableWolfMusic]

You're right. He does say pollen molecules. I think it is endearing, although I'd prefer "pollecules".

[FUGGINGMAD]

yes i agree, id rather particles too but he's only using it to show how brown did it because brown used pollen and water.

[gulllars]

Just love the ending, a really usefull tip.

When confronted by determinists, invoke quantum mechanics :D

The wave function and quantum superposition combined with Heisenbergs uncertainty principle should be enough to shut any determinist up.

[anders3130]

@gulllars They would just answer with a hidden variable theory like bohmian mecanics.

[TheLensmith]

Yes sir , Invoke the quantum , it always causes the other side to start bashing into each other at random uniil they run out of energy and resort to swearing.

[Rasayana85]

@TheLensmith

How do you measure swearing?

[TheLensmith]

@Rasayana85

The well established "swearometer," brought to us by the Indian physicist ,Rama von Bettleim whose dad was Austrian. Developed at the U. of Nott. the swearometer takes advantage of a Fourier engine ( which runs on beer ,} a bag of salty crisps and a policeman without a hat.

[Rasayana85]

@TheLensmith

Is that a riding policeman or an office officer?

[Digeridude]

I just had a Brownian motion of my own. Athankyouuu!

[tjosbourne]

i usually have my brownian motions after i wake up, right before i jump in the shower.

[solomsolomol]

how about doing another video about mathematical randomness and computational randomness but in really dumped down way ?

[PERSONIFICATIONOFYAY]

I'm sure they've gone pass sixty symbols by now

[sixtysymbols]

Indeed, we're on our "second sixty" now... more details at the sixty symbols website!

[DaChoozen]

Why has a classical phenomenon, the brownian motion, caused discussion of quantum mechanics?

[TableWolfMusic]

Hi DaChoozen & VanderWolls

I think that people are confusing random & choas, which in natural english we often interchange, unlike the way these separate terms are used in scientific discussion. So the confusion probably leads onto chaotic outcomes, like the butterfly effect for chaos theory. So when people say there is no such thing as random, I guess they make this forgivable mistake when they really mean that random & chaos are not the same thing, even though we interchange them day to day.

[pedrogregorio]

Humans and their confusing creations...the chaos shall never end...

[VanderWolls]

A lot of people are saying "There's no such thing as random"

I'd like to know where these people got their PhD's in thermodynamics from, because Roger Bowley here is a Professer, and knows more than you do on these matters.

[sixtysymbols]

@VanderWolls: Ha... That's what Professor Bowley should say back to me when I don't understand him and ask all sorts of uninformed questions! :)

[Rasayana85]

@VanderWolls

Appeal to authority.

I'm not saying that you're wrong though. However, to me it appears like that professor Browley say that it should be possible to work  it out in a deterministic manner from 5:00 onward. To me it seems like Browleys own objection against the deterministic approach is that all starting conditions can't be specified.

[TheCaptainLulz]

@VanderWolls those are generally the same people that fill in the blanks with god because they are too lazy to read about it.

[omgiwaswrong]

This arises from different meanings of the word random. There's random = without cause, and random = unpredictable.

Are these forces caused? Yes, we understand the causes quite well.

Are they predictable? No, in experiments the forces are slightly different every time and give rise to different results. So they are in that sense they are random.

[MeddizzleMan]

@VanderWolls its been scientifically shown that the less a person knows, the more they think they know

[godlyking3]

@VanderWolls It isn't random, but to predict the way in which the ball goes requires you to study every surrounding object and these influences on each other and the ball. So it would take you thousands of years to define the path of the ball but it sure isn't random.

[gomunkul]

@VanderWolls "They" can say anything they like and we all should encourage it. but the really interesting part is what is their data and what is their explanation.

[VanderWolls]

@gomunkul

You are quite right.

The thing is, science requires emprical evidence, you can't just get it all from your own head. The prof here has spent his career studying the topic matter, and would have seen an extream amount of experimental data, and spent years studying relevent calculations.

I just think people should first ask him: "What makes you say that?", and when he explains his reasoning, then consider whether you agree with his conclusions.

I don't think we should follow blindly.

[VanderWolls]

@gomunkul so while I'm here, I apologise if my original comment comes off as arrogant or trying to shut people up, it wasn't intended to be.

[Qtyled]

As Feynman once said (on Brownian motion):

"given an error, as small as you wish! (but not zero) I can find a time long enough that you cannot predict the outcome"

...

"If the error is one part in billions and billions and billions... I don't care how many billions you say, (as long as you stop somewhere) then I can find a time less than the time it took you to say the error that you can no longer predict what's going to happen"

[jnthnbush]

@Qtyled that is the basis for quantum mechanics, right?

[theonlyone365]

man, those people who say you don't have to say your sorry are idiots.. so what if you step on someones foot ? are you not gonna say your sorry or just be a douche bag ? really .if anything people should be questioning the phrase "never say never" .. like for instance humans have never experienced a time where anything we did or could do is limited cause people through out time have always created the means to make up for what might have been missing.

[Incognit05]

banana. You cannot tell me that that was not random. jk lol

[x246869]

Sorry but nothing is random, which means you never have to say you're sorry luv.

[bluebychoice]

Admit it. Roger is your favorite.

[brainlicker1]

There is no such thing as random :P

[oOoxelAoOo]

Eta to me is the symbol for efficiency.

Didn't know it was used for Brownian Motion.

[eveplayer12]

well done

[comface]

I always think inviking QM to undermine strong determinism is a cop-out.

Perhaps I am naive?

[Jmoges]

I think that would be pretty cool to see with a high speed camera. Probably see which bronze piece produces the motion.

[sporkafife]

I like the bit at the end "have I finished?"

[KingsBlend1]

I like how they used an old sub woofer to build the machine.

[killer2611]

it doesn't look completely random because it goes to one side the majority of the time

[robertwc82]

so you think you could accurately predict how it will move?

where i live, most days are sunny and it only rains occasionally, does that mean the wheather is not random but instead follows a pattern?

[killer2611]

how do you know that the weather is random?

[robertwc82]

ever heard of chaos theory? you can not predict the weather unless you know what decisions every single butterfly, bird and other things that move, you would need to know how every car and person was effecting the flow of air. the tiniest flucuation in the air could mean the difference between a sunny day and a cyclone. can you predict what the weather will be like on this date 5 years from now?

[scottyboyy99]

yeah... my guess is that it will will be partly cloudy.

[killer2611]

@robertwc82

i cant/dont want to predict the weather, i just know that its not random.

[robertwc82]

we are not arguing over the symantics of the word random are we? i'm defining random as meaning unpredictable. am i mistaken? if so, why? or are you saying it means unpredictable in practice but in theory would be predictable if you could analyze ALL the data?

[killer2611]

@robertwc82

lol im not arguing about the meaning of random.

all i said at the beginning was that the weather is not random because someone said it was

[whothehell3000]

You want to say that there is always the same chances of occouring sunny, cloudy day, rain, snow etc? Noone says you can predict weather 100% accurancy, but what are you trying to say is useless and insignificant.

[UniversumExNihilo]

Have you ever heard of Lagrangian mechanics? It's the field that would deal with this sort of thing.

It is the mathematical formulation that would deal with this sort of thing by predicting the possibilities for the outcome, rather then a single outcome.

Using it, definite patterns will appear, making the the ball going to one side, though not a particular side, an accurate prediction.

[robertwc82]

fair enough =)

[Envergure]

Diffusion constant? please elaborate!

[Hewpie]

Call me a pedant but do you really get molecules of pollen?

I thought molecules were self contained assemblages of atoms. Maybe he's talking about it in the Victorian sense of the word...

[sausage4mash]

no would be the answer to that , begs the question how can something as massive as a pollen be moved by molecules ,pollen being massive in comparison ,I was a bit confused by this video ,will add obviously my understanding is at fault not the professor :)

[bugilt]

Could this help random number generation in computers?

[clearmenser]

@bugilt there are as many good solutions to random number generation in computers as there are needs for the randomness of said number. From NSA approved nuclear decay to the parametric clock based randomness that's good for everyday uses.

[bugilt]

I had no idea, thanks for letting me know.

[culwin]

Laplace's Daemon can work out the quantum mechanics too.

[bhuvansimpy007]

did he said "hitted" at 4.55 ?

[iCONICAACINOCi]

He said "hit it".

[IceHammer58]

No, he said "hit it", but were you listening to what he said or how he said it?

[adamb0000]

i love you sixtΨ symbols guys

[XxVizzinixX]

What causes the ball to be moved to the side of the container??

Shouldn't it also be possible for the ball to move towards the center.

[HansTheAtheist]

@XxVizzinixX Once the ball is at a side, it will mostly be hit from particles from the centre side, the other side being a glass wall. So once it's there, it won't tend to move back.

[cc3814]

I'm not exactly sure but I imagine it has something to do with the fact that when the polyurethane ball is up against the wall of the container it keeps getting battered against that wall since there are no bronze pellets hitting the polyurethane ball on the other side.

[okuma0kuma]

frequency's should be able to control direction on flat surface but coil from speaker used is pulsed from centre so it will eventually push it out to side no matter the frequency or or how smooth the surface is ?

another variable is !ramp effect

vibration cause larger objects to surface and smaller to sink eventually separate/sorting them into layers based weight first then mass second ,but in lowest layers are the larger mass pulled towards or pushed away from centre by the pressure above ?

[okuma0kuma]

word limit i removed part about vacuum of air vibrating in cylinder also keeps ball to the side it may possibly give poly static charge as well ! which react to magnet in the speaker

[varunasingh]

ha! Isn't Quantum Mechanics always the ultimate end to a simple problem.

[Nerdylation]

I love the question at the end. 'have I finished.'

[afhdfh]

Great vid as always! I think Einstein should've gotten the Nobel Prize for this though... ;)

[BIGGGY305]

lol at the ending, great video

[Misterb0z]

That's a nice demonstration. Thanks!

[PartVIII]

very interesting. i would love to see more videos more often, but you cant always get what you want.