William Lane Craig vs Ronald De Sousa 4/16 (York University)

[chansetwo]

DeSousa is a breath of fresh air.

[arktheball]

@artistandy77 VERY wrong. Jesus taught the FULFILLMENT of the law. But agree with you on the issue of inerancy

[HonestTechnoAtheist]

Craig thinks that is the god who gives are morals of what's right and wrong. What a joke.

[HonestTechnoAtheist]

@artistsandy77

No he did not teach against it. He said he did not come to change the laws but to fulfull them. And not one jot or tittle of the OT would pass away.

[arktheball]

Does Dr De Soza ententionally set up straw man arguments, and idiotize the opposition? Or is this done by subconciencesly

[bahramf]

@arktheball I don't know if he "ententionally set up straw man arguments and idiotize the opposition?"

But I also didn't know ententionally idiotize or sobconciencesly were words, so...

[Psylliumhead]

Yes, you do deserve eternal Hellfire, you are an unregenerate sinner.

[bahramf]

And you deserve your stupid little bs life.

[vision4DaY]

count9

/watch?v=HW96qmtDmUM

/watch?v=3oef0fkGOnQ /watch?v=yWt9EULIXMo

[vision4DaY]

here are some other videos of the same user pertaning to the same topic /watch?v=RGmRU8l-AaI /watch?v=6s8WkTD0i6M

they are all in youtube ofcourse

[philopathy]

Just one more thing. Because I don't think it gets enough mention. The abolitionist movement, both in the states and in England, was spearheaded by Christians-people like William Wilberforce. And slave owners often did not want their slaves to learn of Christianity for fear that it would make them 'uppity'. And the civil rights movement-lots of Christians. I think that if the Bible really were so terribly pro slavery, it would be difficult to make sense of these facts.

[philopathy]

About the NT. I think that as a point of history, Greek slavery, was not so terrible as the slavery that we had here. The NT attitude seems to be "gain your freedom if you can, but if you can't make sure that you do not malign the gospel by your disobedience." I think that this is the attitude that is reflected in all of those NT passages that you might quote (and in those you already have) when read in context. And I do not think that this an immoral attitude to have about it. Do you?

[philopathy]

Perhaps the most problematic verses are those OT laws about slavery. A couple of points about that: 1 making a law in the regulation of something does not imply moral approval of that thing. 2 I don't think that all slavery is equal. Clearly, 1Tim. is talking about the worst kind. I don't even think that all slavery wrong. In fact, I think that if I have to chose between a welfare state and indentured servitude as a social policy I might actually prefer it (within certain well regulated limits).

[philopathy]

In 1st timothy 1:10 Paul condemns slave trading as among the worst possible sins. And by the way, lots of things happen in the old testament, that doesn't mean that God approves of them. Nowhere in the text does it say that God approved of Lots actions. Really, I mean now your just lying? This guy should make sophisticated atheists everywhere deeply ashamed.

[vision4DaY]

1 timothy does not tal about slavery,

this verses do:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

[vision4DaY]

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

[philopathy]

"1 timothy does not tal about slavery,

this verses do (sic):" Yes it does: 9This means understanding that the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, 10fornicators, sodomites, slave-traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

[vision4DaY]

well yeah but this does not mean he oppose slavery. this means that the law was for those people so they would know they were sinning and so that they would realize that they need jesus to cleanse them.

[vision4DaY]

romans 3: 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

[vision4DaY]

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

[vision4DaY]

so if a slave disobeyed its master he would be sinning and therfore he would to need repent, accept jesus, and also produce deeds of repentance

matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

[vision4DaY]

in the case of the slave it would be to ask for forgiveness to his/her master and continue obeying.

so as you see God does aprove of slavery.

if he did not he would have said in the old and new testament, thou shall not own people or thou shall not have slaves or something to the effecet.

and whoever did would need jesus and to produce deeds of repentace which would mean to free the slaves.

but this was not the case.

[philopathy]

1 Paul does condemn slave trading. Do you now concede that? 2 I have no idea what most of the scripture you posted has to do with anything. 3 Perhaps what you really want to do here is raise issues about certain parts of scripture that either do not explicitly forbid slavery (as you think it should) or appears to condone it, as in the law. I think that the best way to approach the issue is for you to list those verses you find problematic and take them one at a time.

[philopathy]

The context makes it clear that just as Paul thinks that adultery, lying, patricide, etc. are moral abominations. It is a significant condemnation of the practice to lump it together with these worst of all possible offenses.

[vision4DaY]

the offense is to trade the slave not to own it

[vision4DaY]

well that does not mean he oppose slavery that means he oppose slave trading as i pointed out later in 1 Timothy 6:1-2 paul talks about how slave should give their owners full respect.

[philopathy]

Certainly it should count for something that the Bible condemns slavetrading. Also I think it would be kind of stupid to be against the practice of slave trading but for the practice of owning those slaves acquired by that practice. I think its clearly implied. So I think this is, at the very least, an implicit condemnation of the very worst kind of slavery. It does say for slaves to respect their masters. So what? He also tells them to gain their freedom if they can. But whats your point?

[vision4DaY]

ok sorry for not responding, i have school and the respose takes some time.

the thing with paul is that whenever he condems something he is real specific about it.

1 corinthians 6: 9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

[vision4DaY]

cont>

you would think well if he condems the effeminite it is also implied that he condems homosexuals however he list both.

in this other passage he only list slave-trading.

also, not because paul encourage slaves to gain freedom means (in a biblical perspective) that slavery is wrong

just as he encourages people not to get married does not mean that marriage is wrong.

the laws of the old testament were given to the people by GOD, just as the ten comandments were given to moses by GOD.

[vision4DaY]

cont3

the point is that a omnivolevlent God would not order such things and HE ordes things from

killing of child witch craig says is wrong "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." Exodus 13:2

to genocide

Genesis 19

24Then the LORD (A)rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,

25and (A)He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities,

[vision4DaY]

cont4

valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

yes this included innocent children

[vision4DaY]

cont5

to rape So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

Judges 21:10-24

[vision4DaY]

cont6

i know this one is not God directly orderin it but he gave them victory, in the old testament when a king i think it was david kept another king alive god send another army and david was defeated because God did not approve of what he did.

(they were getting slaves and they were still winning)

to slavery

[vision4DaY]

count7

leviticus 25

1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai,... 44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

[vision4DaY]

count8

so that is why sousa calls him a malevolent bully.

i would go on discussing absolute moraly but it is too much writting. when i was a christian this too was one of the strongest arguments for christanity specially how craig lays it out.

i really recomend this videos that talk about that argument, they expalin how i saw it destroyed, not by the video but by actually reading the bible. the video showed me that i was not the only one who notice this. here is the link:

[arktheball]

"Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." Exodus 13:2 He was talking about entering the PRIESTHOOD!!! Not sacrificing them!!! God ordered the Isrealite to wipe out those who worshipped Moloch because they would not turn away from Moloch and were sacrificing their children to this evil God!!!

[vision4DaY]

oh ok, i did not realize animals could enter PRIESTHOOD.

[philopathy]

Terrible! This guy is an idiot.