The best way it by testing and datalogging information. Everybody's setup is different, so you'll need to determine what works best for you. I've never been a fan of progressive setups. I like my pump to either be ON or OFF. And I prefer a boost-based or load-based trigger.
We tested methanol and water, and water outperforms for pre-compressor injection. Most users than incur compressor wheel damage have the nozzle in a poor location. Usually too far upstream and not directed directly toward the compressor. Idealy, the nozzle should be 4" from the compressor and spraying directly at the center. This way there's little possibility of damage occuring.
There's one proper way and a dozen improper ways to attempt this.
Without injection, compressor outlet temps accelerated at 29 degrees F per second. With injection, we reduced that to 11 degrees F per second. A substantial difference. We also picked up an extra 1.2 PSI boost from the added compressor efficiency.
wouldn't this provoke rust not only in your compressor but into the cylinder as well? water is always present in the process cuz of the humidity of the air entering the engine but this amount of water is a lot compared to that...
lol, no, it won't cause the aluminum compressor wheel or cover to rust. The atomized water vapor flashes off almost instantly. Zero fluid comes out of the compressor outlet.
What you see there is the anti-surge compressor cover doing it's job. Only a small percentage of water diverted back through there. The majority "flashed off" inside the compressor cover.
Read up on pre-compressor injection. Damage to the compressor wheel only occurs when nozzle positioning is sub-par. And even if I needed a new compressor wheel in 20K miles, that's not really a big deal anyway... Back in the 70's they were mounting the carbureters on the turbo inlet, and the entire engine's fuel passed through the compressor. And they weren't going through turbo's left and right. In a nutshell, it works properly when set-up properly.
@99GSTracer I see some compressor wheels damaged with water injection.
If you want to run the engine only for races, you can change all the comp.wheel that you want, but if you want a reilable system, I think you must put the water injection after the turbocharger (and intercooler).
Fuel is different than water, it have a smaller density, a smaller surface tension and it evaporates better before it touch the wheeel, than a small quantity of liquid fuel can enter in the compressor wheel.
surge is normal when you let off the gas. a bov would decrease it but its not such a big issue. BUT true surge is what you really need to look out for while ON boost (overspinning on the exhaust housing - needs bigger rear housing). and for the people that dont know what the surge slots are for they are there to eliminate true surge by bypassing air though the slots if surge(on boost) occurs saving the turbine shaft & wheel. youtube- true surge.
Are you still running this setup? Interested to see how the blades are when using a 7gph nozzle. I just eliminated my MAF so I can now feel comfortable doing preturbo injection.
I'm not wholly sold on pre-turbo water injection though.. I would think that the impeller would spin the water out of the air and force it to the housing's walls through centrifugal force. Wouldn't post-turbo injection work better too since the water spray would be injected directly into the hot airstream?
Thats an awesome video man, I am goign to be doing this tomorrow on my HX40. I have been using water/meth for 3 years but never preturbo. I am going to be using a 3GPH nozzle at 150psi. Did you have any gain in power or at least in butt dyno?
@99GSTracer . what kind of gate and BOV are on your set up, and how many PSI . seems to me theres a huge amount of surge after letting off... im no turbo pro...but id think that must send a shockwave of energy into the blades and causes them to have huge rpm variences ... bigger gate...another bov......
lol, The turbo isn't "running backwards". What you see there is the surge ports on the compressor cover doing their job. Due to the way the engine dyno was loaded, he couldn't just lift the throttle at the end of the pull without it stalling hard. So, he lifts, then WOT, then lift, then a blip, and then back down. That's about the best way I can describe it, but it does create a bit of compressor surge in the process. Under normal driving, it doesn't surge like that at all.
The pulsing is because he's quickly on/off/on/off the throttle. It's surge, but like I said, it only does this on the engine dyno. And the water swirling back out is coming from the surge ports due to the air that it's diverting away from the compressor wheel due to the surge. The engine has a 50mm Tial BOV, by the way.
Thanks man. We might try to get it a little closer next time. We're hoping to get the engine back on the dyno in a month or so and we're going to try a few other things related to meth injection. More videos coming soon. :-)
Read the video info. This was using straight water. Our best results were from using windshield washer fluid with the 7gph nozzle. With it, we reduced the temp increase rate from 29 deg/sec to 11 deg/sec.
No, i don't have any new vids of my 2G. It sits in storage during these Michigan winters. But I should be taking it to the dyno in like 6-8 weeks, so I'll have video from that.
Awesome! You never cease to amaze me with the shit you pull off. Keep it up!
Artago2121 1 month ago
How do you determine what size nozzle to use?
and if you should have your pump turn full on, or progressively?
unijabnx2000 7 months ago
@unijabnx2000
The best way it by testing and datalogging information. Everybody's setup is different, so you'll need to determine what works best for you. I've never been a fan of progressive setups. I like my pump to either be ON or OFF. And I prefer a boost-based or load-based trigger.
99GSTracer 7 months ago
@dadoVRC
We tested methanol and water, and water outperforms for pre-compressor injection. Most users than incur compressor wheel damage have the nozzle in a poor location. Usually too far upstream and not directed directly toward the compressor. Idealy, the nozzle should be 4" from the compressor and spraying directly at the center. This way there's little possibility of damage occuring.
There's one proper way and a dozen improper ways to attempt this.
99GSTracer 7 months ago
how much do u see you intake temps drop?
maldo72 7 months ago
@maldo72
Without injection, compressor outlet temps accelerated at 29 degrees F per second. With injection, we reduced that to 11 degrees F per second. A substantial difference. We also picked up an extra 1.2 PSI boost from the added compressor efficiency.
99GSTracer 7 months ago
is your BOV not responsive enough to keep it from shooting back thru the anti-surge ports?
unijabnx2000 7 months ago
@unijabnx2000
That surge was a quirk of the dyno. Definitely not something you would see with normal driving.
99GSTracer 7 months ago
This was great guys thank you!
Nettikturbo 7 months ago
wouldn't this provoke rust not only in your compressor but into the cylinder as well? water is always present in the process cuz of the humidity of the air entering the engine but this amount of water is a lot compared to that...
yorchais 7 months ago
@yorchais
lol, no, it won't cause the aluminum compressor wheel or cover to rust. The atomized water vapor flashes off almost instantly. Zero fluid comes out of the compressor outlet.
99GSTracer 7 months ago
thats was insane!
2253benjamin 9 months ago
Kinda looks like the atomized water actually just beaded in the compressor fan and all got spit out when you lifted off... maybe just surge?
thinkpad411 10 months ago
@thinkpad411
What you see there is the anti-surge compressor cover doing it's job. Only a small percentage of water diverted back through there. The majority "flashed off" inside the compressor cover.
99GSTracer 10 months ago
Water injector must be positioned after the compressor.
In 10-20'000km your compressor wheel was destroyed in this kind of installation.
dadoVRC 11 months ago
@dadoVRC
Read up on pre-compressor injection. Damage to the compressor wheel only occurs when nozzle positioning is sub-par. And even if I needed a new compressor wheel in 20K miles, that's not really a big deal anyway... Back in the 70's they were mounting the carbureters on the turbo inlet, and the entire engine's fuel passed through the compressor. And they weren't going through turbo's left and right. In a nutshell, it works properly when set-up properly.
99GSTracer 10 months ago 2
@99GSTracer I see some compressor wheels damaged with water injection.
If you want to run the engine only for races, you can change all the comp.wheel that you want, but if you want a reilable system, I think you must put the water injection after the turbocharger (and intercooler).
Fuel is different than water, it have a smaller density, a smaller surface tension and it evaporates better before it touch the wheeel, than a small quantity of liquid fuel can enter in the compressor wheel.
dadoVRC 10 months ago
good stuff , dont listen to those fags who don't know anything and just read magazines
929cosmodude 11 months ago
surge is normal when you let off the gas. a bov would decrease it but its not such a big issue. BUT true surge is what you really need to look out for while ON boost (overspinning on the exhaust housing - needs bigger rear housing). and for the people that dont know what the surge slots are for they are there to eliminate true surge by bypassing air though the slots if surge(on boost) occurs saving the turbine shaft & wheel. youtube- true surge.
lanster00 11 months ago
Are you still running this setup? Interested to see how the blades are when using a 7gph nozzle. I just eliminated my MAF so I can now feel comfortable doing preturbo injection.
maraba 1 year ago
great idea and video,but it will erode your blades pretty quickly.yup tried it myself ,so i know LOL!! regards jon
mightyfinejonboy 1 year ago
Almost ate the camera! :)
I'm not wholly sold on pre-turbo water injection though.. I would think that the impeller would spin the water out of the air and force it to the housing's walls through centrifugal force. Wouldn't post-turbo injection work better too since the water spray would be injected directly into the hot airstream?
DracoOne 1 year ago
Thats an awesome video man, I am goign to be doing this tomorrow on my HX40. I have been using water/meth for 3 years but never preturbo. I am going to be using a 3GPH nozzle at 150psi. Did you have any gain in power or at least in butt dyno?
maraba 1 year ago
that turbo ain't gonna last lol.
islandfd3s 1 year ago
@islandfd3s : What makes you say that? :-)
99GSTracer 1 year ago
@99GSTracer . what kind of gate and BOV are on your set up, and how many PSI . seems to me theres a huge amount of surge after letting off... im no turbo pro...but id think that must send a shockwave of energy into the blades and causes them to have huge rpm variences ... bigger gate...another bov......
twistymcslide 1 year ago
@99GSTracer Believe it or not, water is abrasive at high speed
tgamirov 1 year ago
Comment removed
y05tiE 1 year ago
@y05tiE
lol, The turbo isn't "running backwards". What you see there is the surge ports on the compressor cover doing their job. Due to the way the engine dyno was loaded, he couldn't just lift the throttle at the end of the pull without it stalling hard. So, he lifts, then WOT, then lift, then a blip, and then back down. That's about the best way I can describe it, but it does create a bit of compressor surge in the process. Under normal driving, it doesn't surge like that at all.
99GSTracer 1 year ago
@99GSTracer Surge ports do not cause that pulsing sound and there was a lot of that.
I get that it probably doesn't do this during normal driving. But you can't deny you hear quite a bit of surge here. I've heard worse.
y05tiE 1 year ago
@y05tiE
The pulsing is because he's quickly on/off/on/off the throttle. It's surge, but like I said, it only does this on the engine dyno. And the water swirling back out is coming from the surge ports due to the air that it's diverting away from the compressor wheel due to the surge. The engine has a 50mm Tial BOV, by the way.
99GSTracer 1 year ago
Comment removed
y05tiE 1 year ago
awesome demonstration of compressor surge
93maximaguy 1 year ago
Absolutely awesome! I would like to see a shot closer to the prop, but this is awesome!
ALTFUELPROF 2 years ago
Thanks man. We might try to get it a little closer next time. We're hoping to get the engine back on the dyno in a month or so and we're going to try a few other things related to meth injection. More videos coming soon. :-)
99GSTracer 2 years ago
So...what kind of a difference can you feel with this setup? Is it 50/50 with Meth?
seanwilliams78 2 years ago
Read the video info. This was using straight water. Our best results were from using windshield washer fluid with the 7gph nozzle. With it, we reduced the temp increase rate from 29 deg/sec to 11 deg/sec.
99GSTracer 2 years ago
Shit! Hold on to your phone or you are going to have the world's Fastest Black Berry Grinder! Just plain sick P.
Absinthmindedsm 2 years ago
HAHA. No kidding. We did have to tape it down pretty good.
99GSTracer 2 years ago
That is sweet. any new vids of your twin turbo dsm? i havent been on the forums forever..
coadycoyote 2 years ago
Thanks. :-)
No, i don't have any new vids of my 2G. It sits in storage during these Michigan winters. But I should be taking it to the dyno in like 6-8 weeks, so I'll have video from that.
99GSTracer 2 years ago