Geoffrey Warnock on Kant: Section 4

[CommunistWarrior1917]

I see that in 2009 there was a discussion on Ayn Rand. Please don't mention that dyke on a video on Kant; it defiles his name

[SwordInAir]

Click 8:33 repeatedly to reduce a wonderfully enlightening discussion into trivial vulgarity

[EricHerboso]

I've been watching the entire series playlist in order and only just now realized that this is the first episode where the host didn't match his suit/shirt/tie color to the color of the wall/couch/carpet/table.

[enraGeUKK]

so many fucking comments good god god dam christ nine bitter lichenbestienheight

[randomnomenclature]

What I really hate is non-natural scientist philosophers asserting any right to comment on nature of reality. Kant has no means to prove his views on space and time as human interpretations of reality. He has not reason to nose into the concerns of Newton and Leibniz. If other philosophers are like him them the subject is dead.

[AEFic]

@randomnomenclature If you're discarding the statements of a philosopher who's work has been studied since the 19th century, you should just MAYBE assume that he's not a COMPLETE idiot, and PERHAPS made some mental strides that you have not. In other words, if you think you're one-paragraph refutation of Kant's philosophy is enough to put you on his level, you simply don't understand what he's saying and why it's relevant.

[AEFic]

@AEFic *your. Sorry, typo.

[randomnomenclature]

@AEFic

I believe the same applies to you :).

[AEFic]

@randomnomenclature That's why I don't try refuting philosopher's works in one paragraph. :) But if you think that your comment was on the same level as 'A Critique of Pure Reason', then I suppose I'll try to study your works more.

[randomnomenclature]

@AEFic

Being a complete idiot is not a prerequisite for being wrong.

[gorgolyt]

@AEFic the ideas of causality, of space and time, have all been shown to be empirical, and a priori incorrect. kant has been totally destroyed by science. we don't need to analyse his steps: his conclusions were wrong.

[Baseliner]

Atlas Shrugged is a thousand pages of a hideous toads blathering about her dreams of painting the bourgeoisie turd a shade of gold.

Yet everyone who experiences that in full (or has the empirical facilities to see where it goes), knows well enough that at its center, tis still a turd.

Perhaps she should've kept her scribblings on her affinities for buying shoes and handbags to herself.

She is no anomaly. Rather quite average in mental capacities, and insanely below in aesthetic value.

[cirosuperiore]

something tells me warnock does not know kant very well.

he seems to be struggling with the explanations and he seems to go around in circles

i dont blame him

an elementary school child today knows more about science and the world than kant could ever imagine..

kant's philosophy is not relevant today...

just like aristotels study of horses, we have advanced beyond them.

they are just an intellectual curiosity with the possible exception of the moral and ethical lessons they taught.

[kingnotorious]

we are beasts of chemicals

[ising2love]

the distortion is that you don't know what you don't know, but some things you just know...like there really is a God

both can be true ... God creates the universe and all of its constructs that We discover over time because the map is written in mathematics...the universal language

the internet will give birth to this thing...it exists already in our minds...our minds arise from the brain...the brain is a computer...now connected to the internet ...collaboration ;-)

[ising2love]

you only need to be You...God made us in his image...one of us is like a drop in a sea of God...collaboration is a gift that helps us be more...two of us together can create one thing that neither is capable of creating alone (until you get the time thing ;-) it is a tricky yet simple concept...hard to explain because like Kant...the construct to communicate that thing does not yet exist but a team of us will ...it already exists in the noumenal so the expression of it is coming...an art science

[richardcadbury]

Kant claims there is a phenomenal world, which is everything we can perceive with our senses, and which is shaped by our senses and is a distortion.

And there is also a pneumenal world, which we cannot access in any way.

This raises two questions:

1. How does he know there is a pneumenal world if it is impossible to detect?

2. How does he know the phenomenal world is a distortion if he has nothing to compare it to?

And he NEVER answers them, and noone ever has.

[ising2love]

noumenal: a posited object or event as it appears in itself independent of perception by the senses

if a lake is stocked on friday...you walk by on Saturday and look at the lake...you know they are there without seeing them...but i bet you just thought of a kind of fish

answer to number one

now number two...simply put is that each person and each sense is independent of each other, but the places We connect is a kind of asynchronous synchronicty...kinda funny...that is the time portion.

[AlephNeil]

@richardcadbury : First, it's noumenal not pneumenal. Second, noumena are just "things-as-they-are-in-themsel­ves" so it would take a pretty radical scepticism to deny that there are noumena. The "noumenal world" is just the world considered objectively. Third, it's not that noumena are "undetectable", rather that the only access we have to noumena is 'conditional' on our perceiving them in certain ways and making certain kinds of judgements about them. (But that makes them phenomena after all.)

[richardcadbury]

0:01

"an inescapable empirical fact"

errr... according to Kant there are no empirical facts, coz our senses are hopelessly biased.

[favouritedress]

Biased isn't the right word. But there are intuitions, Kant says, that our experience depends on. It's not that space and time bias or distort our experience; rather, our intuitions about space and time make possible our experience. And so everything we experience we experience in space or time. So there's no difficulty about empirical facts, strictly speaking.

[archdeaconj]

Kant held that our ethical sense is innate. This is surely true. Yet he also wants to say that it has its roots in reason. This is just as surely untrue. There is no reason why I ought not to kill a man for the small change in his pocket if I know I can get away with it. In fact reason tells me to do it. Yet I could not. For I know that if I did such a thing, I would not be able to live with myself and would probably end up killing myself. Reason is absolutely antithetical to ethics.

[mightyafrowhitey]

@archdeaconj hmmm... yea I've never seen how something as objective as ethics could be based on reason. I do agree that most of our ethical sense is probably innate, probably the byproduct of various evolutionary mechanisms.

[archdeaconj]

@mightyafrowhitey Yes, and yet being the creation of blind, purposeless nature does not alter the fact that we are at our core, moral beings.  Reason just does not reach down so far (which is why enlightenment projects fail). As someone said (I forget who), 'God may forgive us but our nervous system won’t.' With Schopenhauer there is a twist: he agreed we were the product of blind, purposeless nature but identified nature with universal Will and thought the moral sense was grounded in that.

[mmullin0123]

Rand and Kant's idea's on how knowledge's Objectivity resides not in the percepts but in the concepts are remarkably similiar. Ain't cognitivism grand!

[mach1man22]

Wow...this is one of the most provoking conversations I've ever had

[barrywinehousexp]

rails007 is engaged in an apology for cultural relativism bedecked with sophisms advocating marxian polylogism. It's cute.

[vegtam1]

I don't know, he seems to be a moral realist to me actually.

[gubberningbody]

I wish Geoffrey would stop with the chronic yes-ing when Bryan is talking, it's indicative of his not listening which is annoying

[garvess]

Do you really think that he could answer those questions if he didnt listen?

[Entropy56]

So the more one delves into Kant's philosophy and its implications the more the bullshit factor goes up.

[vegtam1]

No, the more you realize how much Western thought was changed by him.

[Entropy56]

So, are you saying that you know I am wrong or merely there is room that I am?

[vegtam1]

'You' the way I used it was obscure I suppose.

I assume you me the bullshit factor regarding Kant?

If so I reply that one should carefully re-consider his prejudices on his images of the western intellectual before Kant and after Kant.

[Entropy56]

"Ayn Rand considers Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) and his philosophy to be evil and condemns what she perceives as the intended goal, methods, and conclusions of his philosophical arguments. She accused Kant of hating life, man, and reason. Rand observed that, since Kant, the dominant trend in philosophy has been aimed at the destruction of the human mind and that a philosophy seeking to destroy mans mind is a philosophy of hatred for man, his life, and all human values."

[vegtam1]

Why are you quoting Ayn Rand as if I were to shake in awe? She was as amateur as you or I.

[vegtam1]

She had no rigorous epistemological or metaphysical stance. She was a tagger on, tugging on the trousers of those before her.

[AEFic]

@vegtam1 She's probably published and studied more than you. That doesn't count for nothing.

[vegtam1]

And furthermore, appeal to authority is disgusting in philosophy. It should go without saying.

But when it is Ayn Rand.... HAHAHAHA

[natedaug1]

@vegtam1 I am about my master's degree in philosophy. Your right, Ayn Rand sucks, she is not a good philosopher.

[SirMelanin]

@Entropy56 Yeah, and Ayn Rand was an Atheist ..talking about values. Truly, Man is an immoral agent at times; historically speaking, you must admit this. He can and does have free will to compromise an imperative ( conscious force) on his own reasoning process e.g. 'I am-- so I Can Do'--irregardless of who has something to say about it'. What Kant is saying, if everyone thought this way, what kind of world would we have?: The answer: Total Cahos... Total Cahos

[entropia34332]

she hated kant because she was a cunt

[Entropy56]

How many cans can a can-can can if a can-can can can cans?

[rails007]

Ethics is not totally irrational and comes to us not from reason as was hypothesised by due to culture (which is nothing more than indoctrinated reason but reason must first be indoctrinated in culture otherwise it will not persist throughout generations).

A social unit does not function very well or for a very long time if it employs non-ethical standards of behaviour.

For example greed.

So it indocrinates reasonable standards of behaviour into its culture.

Ethics!

[xXxPKw00txXx]

I agree with you that Ethics is not totally irrational. However where does the culture derive ethical paradigms from. The individual reason acts as a part to the whole of society. The same principle that you highlighted, "a social unti does not funtion very well if it employs non-ethical standards" is as true as it is for a society as it is for the individual. OUr ethical standards come from within from observations on the relationships we hold, our reason guides us.

[rails007]

Our reason comes from our culture.

Hence such discussions as the one I am hearing now.

"However where does the culture derive ethical paradigms from."

Culture is derive through interactive behaviour. If a community is to prosper then it must have rules of behaviour. Look at the culture of the animal kingdom if you will...

[jpoiyacneo]

Kant started out by saying that the "real" cannnot ever be understood but based his "universal laws"(duties)on the "real" or the "Noumenon", which ironically according to his premise, will never be knowable and provable. Can there be a bigger fraud than this?

[1974freud]

Yes, it is I. I am still alive, despite five floggings, countless beatings and a horrible case of syphilis!

[bolocface]

fascinating discussion on kant's ethical philosophy and the categorical imperative. i really enjoy these video clips and bryan magee's exposition really helps.

[1974freud]

All is for the best, in this best of all possible worlds.

[bolocface]

hello there dr. pangloss!