"The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world" (1 of 13)

[highlanderdurp]

what song is in the beginning

[timewilltell7]

watch The Roman Empire Rules Today on google vid

the nazi salute is a catholic salute - watch the first 15 mins

the Vatican is the most evil entity in existence today

[HouseHaunter484]

The two representing evil (Hich and the Homo) are the cream of their crop; and the side representing truth get two unknowns.

[timburtonfanch]

@HouseHaunter484 Evil? That's just typical religious bullshit.

[BigDickandLittleJon]

Imagine if they had this debate today, with the child abuse scandal as exposed as it is now. I think poor Hitchens would have had a stroke just trying to express his feelings about these criminals.

[Clown5336]

the Catholic Church wrong its about having a relationship with Jesus Christ not little boys

[Acoustiic]

the moderator lies. the speakers in favor of the motion were anything but "provocative, intelligent, and stimulating".

[shussey100]

Widdecombe is a moral women in a very unmoral country.

Here in Botswana she would be highly respected.

Britain only respects criminals and terrorists.

[crabssssss]

SIr, your arrogance, self-importance and niave way of thinking is all very amusing

[Acoustiic]

@shussey100 So too does religion

[billymotherhen2]

I would have to agree with amandarandom89's last statement: "they're hypocrites or ignorant of the events".

[stunhabter]

Fry and Hitchens... haha, what a death squad. I haven't watched the videos but I know that those Catholic jerks will be slaughtered by all means.

[MrDuDeTheFirst]

Here's a thought:

Witch is more moral ? doing charity in the name of Christainty (or Jesus or whatever) or doing Charity because it's the right thing to do ?

[HouseHaunter484]

@MrDuDeTheFirst --You can do something becuase its the right thing to do "in the name of Jesus"; Theres no "or" about it.

[Joester20]

@HouseHaunter484 yes but the whole point of the comment is that christians do it because they think they will get into heaven for it. Non believers do it because they care about others for non-selfish reasons .

[rukussert]

is it then right to support the US after its horrible past of racism, eugenics, and killing in the name of democracy? is it right to support any organization whose members have made mistakes in the past?

does democracy become an evil if its members do evil in its name? does Christianity? does Atheism become an 'evil' if it aided the rise of the Soviet Union and the Third Reich?

it's fun to come up with little emotionally charged phrases to promote a worldview, isn't it? let's get real.

[AidansVlog]

@rukussert nice argument but the catholic church is still getting in the way of the fight against aids and equal rights for homosexuals

[trimard71]

@MrDuDeTheFirst The question should be: Witch is more moral? Doing Charity because you're afraid of hell or doing Charity because you think it's just a good thing to do. I see no differences between doing something in the name of Christianity or in the name of good, as in people's mind it is alike (for a christian a least). But there is difference in the moral of a cashier who don't steal because he is afraid of punishment and a cashier who don't steal because he thinks it's bad.

[xaxie1]

@MrDuDeTheFirst

Both Really, Bible says it is good for christians to give money to charity. It is also good to give money to charity because it helps them :)

[hazzmando]

@MrDuDeTheFirst Witch?!? WHERE?!

BURN HER!!

[pienipaha]

In many cases the religious idea of "charity" is no different from preaching the gospel.

Sometimes they're just more interested in "saving souls" rather than lives...

[frid9999]

The catholic church is pure evil. They have ruined more lives than any other organization in world history. Every day they take thousands of children and brainwash them with fundamentally anti-human dogma. No organization has psychologically abused more children, and as they become adults, encouraged them to do the same to the next generation of children. The catholic church is the abused trained to abuse - the holding up of abuse as holy tradition.

[yewt]

the archbishop displays the haughty character of the catholic cult. Why would a humble man accept being referred to as "your grace"? It isn't done by humble men, it is the hypocrisy & peacockery of false systems that want their minions to be humble unquestioning pawns and exalt the leaders.  Most repugnant of course is the blasphemy of the "pope" who loves people to mistake him for the true "Holy Father", God the Father.

[whatever000whenever]

Good grief what a silly title.

The Catholic Church is one of the post powerful social, political and financial institutions in the world today - run by men, with manly agendas that have little to do with the good of humanity, or the glory of God.

[79743618]

Really so all the money that we give to Afrric for AIDS relife an all the doctors nurses and teachers we send there are not for th good of humanity? Or what about all the so when we open up soup kitchens and homeless shelter that's notfor the good of humaity either? The Catholic church has givn more money to humanitarian efforts then any otherchurch or nation. Did u also kno that we are the ones who founded the scientific method and the college system.

[nbj01]

you are the ones who piss us off so much we wish you didn't exist in the first place.

[79743618]

That is the reply of someone who knows that their arguments have no grounds.

[mixxycan]

Are you then of the opinion that Catholic charity should and does excuse all of the atrocities mentioned in the debate? Do you think Catholics are the only ones who open up soup kitchens?

Also, about founding the scientific method and the college system, you might want to check your facts there, as Muslims beat the Catholics to both of them.

[79743618]

Im not denying the churches past. Nor am I denying that in recent years the church has done things that are not right. What I am saying is that you can ignore the good that the church is doing as well. Not only that but you also can' ignor the harms that are being done by other religions. Look at the protestant churches and their history.

Or all the harms done by all theother countries in the world. Like England Sapin, and even or own country of America.

[icygripofdeath]

Can you name something good that the Catholic church has done that contributed to the progress of society?

[79743618]

Sure can St.Elizabeth Ann Seton founded the sister of charity which are a group of nuns that work in hospitals and scools. You also have the society of St. Vincent dePaul. The Knight of Columbus are the biggest suppoters of the specail Olympics. Not to mentin that Pope John Paul II is one of the pople who is credited for the fall of communism in his home country of Poland.

[TheFounderUtopia]

@79743618

You get that money from people who could just as easily give it to some other charity instead.

And I can guarantee you, those charities will not discriminate against lifestyle choices or use that money to hold people over a religious barrel for their own ends.

Nor will they waste any of it on huge buildings that serve no purpose. It could all be done just as easily by all the same people without the involvement of the church or its agenda.

Charity should not come with a price tag.

[79743618]

The church does not force people that are not religious to convert or to even pray. There are alot of Catholic organizations that do not recieve money from the church and only live off donations from regular people. In Milwaukee my old high school teacher ran Casa Maria which was a homeless shelter started by Dorothy Day. He lives in voluntary poverty and all the money he makes goes for the house and the people who live there

[TheFounderUtopia]

I'm fine conceding that the church as a charity is just fine. I would say that other charities are better purely because they wouldn't waste money on churches and other catholic agenda.

The point I was making is that when you give money to the church, sure, a lot of it, maybe most of it goes into charity work. But some of it goes into their pockets, and what those pockets buy - that's not the kind of thing that should be funded.

If you think that doesn't put a price tag on faith, think again.

[79743618]

Are there people working for the church who use the money they recieve for thing they sahouldn't? Yes. There alaways will be. Because we are human and it's within the human flaw to sin. But you can not look at the actions of those few people and blame the entire Church and those that follow and practice with true faith are actually trying to do good in the world.

[TheFounderUtopia]

I don't have a problem with people offering up their money for a good cause, it's the institution that they do it through.

If you seriously believe that conversion is not an agenda attached to these good deeds you need to look into Missionary work and what exactly it's all about. Spreading the religion is the end, spreading charity is just the means, one that could be carried out just as well by a secular charity - without the worry of signing your soul away.

It's the church I take issue with.

[Sh0nin]

@79743618

.... Ignoring the first few lines of bullshit, how could the Catholic Church create the scientific method and college system when they were founded by the Greeks before Jesus was supposed to have been born? Your lies are pathetic and so is your immoral rhetoric.

[79743618]

You don't think tha Protetant church have caused harm? What about all the people that King Henery VIII killed for not accepting him as the head of the church. Or all the churches and monestaries he burned down. Or in France where many priests were killed. That's just a few things.

[Sh0nin]

I didn't address anything to do with morality because I anticipated your spineless excuses, what I addressed was your concrete lies about Catholics inventing the Scientific Method and higher education, which predate your Christ by centuries.

[DoomsdayR3sistance]

The origins of the Scientific Method predates any form of Christianity and in fact it survived in Asia during the dark ages as it was wiped from Europe during the Dark Ages.

As for giving more money, doesn't really mean much when the church has done so much more damage then that. In fact the only reason the Church is first is sheer number of followers, over 1 Billion. Most people don't give to Charity just because of religion, but religion often tries to make itself the "shining light".

[DoomsdayR3sistance]

So yeah, there are only two nations with more people then there is people in the Catholic Church, India and China who have a terrible GDP/Number of People.

Overall someone like Bill Gates is much more charitable then most Christians and he is an Atheist.... and when Bill Gates is a shining example, you know something somewhere is very very wrong.

Also the Church has been known to refer to non charitable things as charity like funding Missionaries and building Monasteries.

[darkdragonsoul99]

You were also the cause of the dark ages among other gigantic fuck ups.

You are accountable for more human rights valuations bigotry and genocide any other church or nation too don't forget that.

The good you do does not erase the bad and it never will.

[BohemianBlasphemy]

You also fuck kids. In the ass.

[amandarandom89]

@79743618

Sooo.... if i give away lots of money, that makes it ok to burn people at the stake and (cover up the) raping little boys?

Nice to see you've got your morals straight there.

also "founded the scientific method"? give me a break. Aristotle did most of the hard work on that, years before there even was a catholic church.

[79743618]

Ok im going to say this for the last time. Yes I know the church has done some very bad things in the past.

But if you want to talk about burning people at the stake lets talk about the salem whitch trials. Or we can talk about how in the early years of our countries history the puritans would actually kill their own kids if they didn't follow the ten commandments perfectly.

I agree that those priests who have been found guilty shoulc be punished at the full extent of the law.

[amandarandom89]

@79743618

"But if you want to talk about burning people at the stake lets talk about the salem whitch trials......"

You STILL don't get it. Just because someone else is doing it, doesn't make it right for you to do it as well.

The fact is that the catholic church AND it's members do NOT punish the guilty. They cover it up, move the paedophiles to another church where they can do it again and again.

Every member of the catholic is therefore guilty of supporting rape and pedophilia.

[79743618]

I didn't say it was right did I? What I said was you can accuse someone of one thing and say they are evil when peopel who are christian as well did the same exact thing. Then you are doing the same thing that you are saying the curch is doing.

You also can't say that every Catholic is guilty of Pedophilia or even supporting it. Members of the Catholic church were just as soccked and outraged as everyne else. That's like saying every muslim is guilty for 9/11

[amandarandom89]

1 - I do say everyone doing the same thing is a criminal

2 - I think I can quite easily say that if you are a member of an organisation that supports and covers up pedophilia, and you are aware of it, that you have to a major asshole, hypocrite or pedophilia supporter.

Membership of the catholic church means you support them. Membership + church pedophilia = supporting pedophilia.

[amandarandom89]

Also, I do not say every muslim is responsible for 9/11, just the ones who are in the same organisation at the people who did it. I believe the US government agrees with me on that one.

I'm not saying every catholic is guilty of supporting pedophilia, just every member of the catholic church. (or they're hypocrites or ignorant of the events)

[79743618]

Every person who is baptized and confirmed in the catholic church is a memeber of the catholic church. Therefore with your comment you are saying that every catholic is guilty. And saying that every Catholic is guilt of Pedophilia is exactly like saying that every muslim is guilty of 9/11. The people who attacked us where muslim therefore by your logic evey muslim should be blaimed for 9/11 and we both know how stupid that is so why do it to the Catholic church.

[amandarandom89]

@79743618

I know for a fact that is bullshit, seeing how I've personally helped a few people to NOT be members anymore. You can quit the church you know.

Besides, if you insist on a 9/11 comparison, then I'd say that all members of the ORGANISATION Al'Quida are supporting terrorism as long as the leadership is supporting it. Just like how all members of the ORGANISATION catholic church are supporting pedophilia as long as the leadership is supporting it.

[Acoustiic]

@79743618

I believe all Muslims are accountable for the actions of the 9/11 terrorists. By adhering to the Islamic faith, they are contributing to the perpetuation of the kind of self-righteousness that led the terrorists to murder as they did. Similarly, Catholics keep alive the belief that the Pope is infallible, essentially allowing for the irresponsible pushing-aside of the crimes of the Catholic clergy.

[79743618]

@Acoustiic You can not blame every person who followes a certain faith for the wrong actionsof who folow thesame faith. If that were true then every American should be eld responsible for the murder of thousands of native Amricans.

[Acoustiic]

@79743618

How is being an American being part of a "faith"? Native Americans were slaughtered because they were viewed as heathens in the eyes of the monotheistic Europeans.

[Acoustiic]

@79743618

Of course, Muslims did not collectively commit the 9/11 murders. However, they do keep alive a faith that leads some to commit such crimes.

[Acoustiic]

@79743618

Let's take it down to a smaller model. A classroom of 30 students is told that their class is superior to all others. They are told that the children of the other classes are all ignorant and amoral. This belief is perpetuated not only by the teacher, but by the students as well, who foster this belief among others and those outside of the class who will listen. Nobody in the classroom questions this belief.

[Acoustiic]

@79743618

Then, one student one day decides to bring justice to the ignorant, amoral students of the classroom down the hall, believing that the these students are the source of all the school's troubles. This one student walks into the other classroom and shoots three of the students there. He then shoots himself in the head.

Are not this murderer's classmates and teacher responsible for his actions? Did they not reinforce his belief that he was superior to the other classes' students?

[Acoustiic]

@79743618

Why didn't the murderer's peers ever question this belief in their own superiority; a belief that led the one student to act as he did; a belief that ultimately has no grounds as a rational argument?

[Acoustiic]

@79743618

Religious moderation paves the path for religious extremism. Sure, not all Christians or Muslims or Jews commit heinous acts of dogmatic fervor. However, they must realize that the faith they adhere to--a collection of baseless claims that foster xenophobia and belligerent--leads many to kill, rape, and destroy.

[RockyBalboa211]

He isnt infallible in anything besides faith and morals, In order for him to even use infallibility, the cardinals must adhere to what he is talking about through a number of steps.. long process overall..

[RockyBalboa211]

Yet, if this new health care bill passes, then that would mean that every single person who pays taxes supports abortion. Thats the logic you are using. What about the child abuse seen in buddhism? Does that make every person who is a buddhist a supporter of pedophilia? As a catholic we believer that we are within the body of christ, yet if you live in sin and do not ask for forgiveness you are not apart of the body.

[amandarandom89]

@RockyBalboa211

How much more obvious can I make it? I don't hold all people in a religion responsible for the acts of a small group, but I do blame all voluntary members of a certain organisation for what that organisation does.

and if we pretend that the healthcare bill does work like that... then yes, I would say that everyone supports it, unless they actively work against it.

[particle409]

@RockyBalboa211 Actually, the new health care bill not only doesn't provide federal money for abortions, Stupak made them put in an amendment that says you can't use PRIVATE insurance money for abortions, if you also receive federal insurance money.

Not every Catholic is a supporter of pedophilia, but it needs to be acknowledged that multiple guilty parties are going free, and that there needs to be massive reform within the Church.

[RockyBalboa211]

I Agree absolutely! :D

[RockyBalboa211]

So that would mean that even if the pope had sexual abuse towards children, thats his own personal sin and it does not change the overall view of the church which states that child molestation is wrong.

[amandarandom89]

@RockyBalboa211

If the pope rapes a child, that's HIS crime. If a cardinal knows about this, but does no reveal it, it's the cardinal's crime. If the cardinal tells 10 priests, and they don't act, there are now 12 guilty people. Everyone who knows about the act but continues to support the pope, is guilty of supporting rape.

[StSimonOfTrent]

Jews, Protest-ants, Public Schools do the exact very thing.

They quietly handle the affair, to avoid causing more scandal, less stress on the victims & logic of a few bad apples.

Catholics had 9 incidents Nationally last year.

Protest-ants had 260.

Jews had 40 Molested Children in Brooklyn alone, last yr.

Public Schools have Thousands incidents annually

Jew Kosher media is on a witch hunt, discredit the Church from criticizing the forthcoming war For Jewry. They did same thing prior to Iraq.

[toolegit2quittttt]

@amandarandom89 and even if they had been the ones to do it it wouldn't change anything.

[PDelta41]

The modern catholic church is much less distructive than middle american fundamental christianity (the christian coalition, to name just one group). Of course, their history is incredibly bloody, but modern cathlolicism has come a long way, nonetheless.

[rock9711]

ya good for raping kids..

[Aaberg123]

@rock9711

You have to give them some credit though. Up until recently, the Church have done it with formidable competence and discretion.

[Tybourne1991]

Individual priests who have molested children must and will face justice. However, the Church does not rape children. In the last 50 years, approximately 1.5-5% of priests have abused children (even one would be too many, but this is a similar figure to other denominations). In 2002 Pope John Paul II stated to the cardinals: "there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young." The Church utterly opposes child abuse.

[MindWr4ith]

That must be while the do hat tricks to move the priest who have committed offenses.

[Polonaise2008]

The Church utterly opposes child abuse.

No. It doesn't. The Church talks about opposing. Who, on the face of the planet - wouldn't ?

The molesters are ( so far) walking free like the birds. Enjoying their life.

[Tybourne1991]

They will have to face justice, if they haven't already done so. The Vatican has taken the unprecedented step of insisting that all cases of clerical child abuse be referred directly to Rome to avoid the problem of individual bishops moving priests. Imagine if the ministry of Education did the same whenever abuse was committed by teachers working for the State? The abuse was restricted to certain countries, such as the U.S., which has a poor record of caring for children in general.

[Polonaise2008]

... if they haven't already done so ?

No, they havent. Not in accordance with the civil law ( the ONLY law that counts). Vaticans internal moves are as much a slap in the face of the civilization as the child abuse itself.

continues...

[Polonaise2008]

Ministry of Education wont do the same thing as Vatican. Teachers are subjects for trial by the civil courts of justice like any other citizens. Thats how the moral standards of the modern world work.

BTW: Ministry of Education doesnt have millions ( billions?) of dollars to keep the abused kids muted.

M of E. Is under public scrutiny and therefore its moral standards are nowhere even close to those represented by the Vatican.

[Tybourne1991]

@Polonaise Priests are also subject to civil law. An aspect of of religious freedom is that priests are also subject to canon law, just as Jewish people and Muslims are allowed their own family law courts. Depending on the country involved, the budget of the the ministry of education would certainly run into millions of dollars. This is not to justify pay outs to silence abuse victims, which are unjustifiable, in my view. The Vatican is under a different form of scrutiny.

[79743618]

Ok and what about the allthe protestant pastor that have raped many boy and girls and haven't faced charges or the the rabbis that were cought molesting childrenin New York and the courts allowed them to settle outside of court?

[tielec01]

Of course it opposes child abuse, who wouldn't ?

It's not NAMBLA...

Is it ?

[Tybourne1991]

@tielec01 Yes, and in abandoning the theory of Natural Law/ natural rights, mainstream society becomes unable to make cogent arguments against those who would justify child abuse. If sexual contact between a minor and an adult is consensual, what argument could you make against it, if you justify sex outside marriage and homosexual sex? The Church is a force for good (one of few) in stemming this tide through a coherent position.

[tielec01]

Not that you care or are going to listen, but your argument is a good example of a logical fallacy called the slippery slope fallacy.

I don't accept that sex before marriage and homosexual sex will lead to child abuse, even though you think they are connected.

In fact the conduct of Catholic priests provide a good argument precisely to the opposite.

[Tybourne1991]

@tielec01 My point is not an example of the slippery slope argument. I'm not saying that sex before marriage leads to child abuse. I *am* saying that the dismissal of Natural Law theory renders society unable to dispute those who advocate such abuse. Natural Law is a universal birthright of humanity. It is the Catholic Church that, currently, guards it from those who would erode it. It is therefore only the Catholic Church that can lead us out of the sexual confusion that reigns in the West.

[tielec01]

@Tybourne1991 To focus on just one of your claims, how is the Catholic Church the only institution defending natural rights ? Do you mean moral objectivism ?

[Tybourne1991]

@tielec01 Natural Law theory is one form, but not the only one, of moral realism or moral objectivism, if you will. Do you believe that ethical properties are real? Versions of moral realism were upheld by Plato, Aristotle and Mill, among others, and opposed by some of the Sophists, from whom we derive the word sophistry, defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as: employment of arguments which are intentionally deceptive". It is precisely here that the CC is an ethical force for good.

[tielec01]

Thank you for the education :)

No I don't think ethical "properties" are tangible, nor real in the sense that logic is real. But you have made some claims I'd like to explore rather than arguing this tired argument:

1) The dismissal of Natural Law Theory leads to child abuse.

2) The Catholic Church is the primary defender of Natural Law Theory from it's attackers.

3) If you accept homosexual sex and pre-marital sex you cannot logically argue against child abuse.

Any evidence ?

[Tybourne1991]

@tielec01 If you don't believe that ethical properties are real, presumably you subscribe to an old-fashioned enlightenment ethics of the social contract type? If so, how would you defend children against paedophiles who would claim to be only interested in consensual sex? If you say, "Society as a whole holds that minors are not capable of consenting to acts such as sex" they could say, "Well, society as a whole accepts that minors can make decisions about contraception". What would you say?

[tielec01]

Plato was an essentialist (as you would know) and I think this poisoned his thinking on the matter of morality. We now know that essentialism is a way of thinking that we seem to be hard-wired towards, for example children tend to pick up the essentials of language very quickly while growing. In no way does this suggest that the rules of language are a shadow of some prototypical language whose laws are intrinsic to the nature of reality. The same applies to morality.

[tielec01]

To answer your direct question is an empirical decision, let the ethicists consult the neuro-psychologists to determine at what age children can make informed decisions, the effects of sex with adults etc etc... It is an arbitrary cut-off point anyway, and while it would be nice to have a floating set of objective rules to take away all the hard work of determining morality there simply isn't.

Now can you provide evidence for your three claims ?

[Tybourne1991]

@tielec01 1) The dismissal of Natural Law Theory leads to child abuse- this is a straw man. I never made this claim. Rather, I said that the absence of grounding in Natural Law renders society logically incapable of arguing against child abuse.

[Tybourne1991]

@tielec01 2) The Catholic Church is the primary defender of Natural Law Theory from it's attackers. From the Catechism, the authoritative summary of Catholic teachings: "the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles." Now the burden is on you to show what other body advocates the importance of Natural Law to the same extent.

[tielec01]

@Tybourne1991 The CC also says thaqt peadophilia is a sin, it takes alot more than a catchetism to convince me that the CC is the primary defender of natural law theory.

In any case our argument is moot, as you have stated I strawmanned you by saying the abandonment of natural law theory leads to child abuse. So clearly you DON'T believe that the abandonment of natural law theory leads to child abuse, we are in vicious agreement.

That or you don't know what a strawman is.

[Tybourne1991]

@tielec01 Fine, you disbelieve the Catechism, so be it, though note that this is the Church's most comprehensive and succinct account of its own teaching. It makes no sense to say the Church doesn't teach X or Y, when it's clear from the Catechism that She does. So, the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy (1999, Second Edition) has this: "[after the seventeenth century] while natural law remained central to Catholic teaching it ceased to attract new non-Catholic proponents" (pp. 599-600). Okay?

[tielec01]

A final note, I am more than open to the possibility of being wrong on the moral objetivism/relativism issue, many of my favourite philosophers fall on either side of the issue, and who am I to argue against any one of them.