WOTM teach works salvation according to the bible, here is 100% proof:
Jonah 3:10 And God saw THEIR WORKS, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
It says God saw "their WORKS" they they turned from their evil way (sins), and in the same verse it says God himself repented...it doesn't mean turn from sin, WOTM are 100% fake phony works salvation, self righteous pharisees. Dont trust them, trust KJV bible
Whatever you do don't trust Way of the Master, theyre controlled by Satan. The bible says youre saved by faith only (believing only, like it says in Acts 16:30-31), and then if you sin after salvation God will deal with it, so you dont need to worry bout turning from your sins, God will deal with that after youre saved, he will chastise/discipline you for your sins on earth if you sin after salvation (check hebrews 12:6-11, hebrews 10:26-31, psalm 38 etc.) Trust the bible not Way of the Master.
Why do Christians insist on butting in on people's souls like we are their responsibilites. I would have told Ray 'Ray, worry about your own damn soul and I will take care of my own'.
@orlandobabe Are you unable to put yourself in his shoes for a moment? Think about it for a sec. If he is thoroughly convinced that he know the truth about life and death and he truly believes that he can help steer you away from judgement and make you aware of everlasting life without suffering, how much of a jerk would he have to be to keep it to himself? Even IF he is wrong, and I doubt he is, but even IF he is wrong..he truly believes he is right, how could he then not share it?
Pathetic Christians, you pick on the most out of it people you can find to try to make yourselves appear smart, this guy isnt very smart and seems very out of it. Theres millions of other atheists that will line up to debate you, but ussually when a christian tries to debate with an intellectual the wind up trying to prove the bible is correct by using the bible as proof which of course is the epitome of backward logic, but thats the basis of Christianity right?
Who's tempting anyone??? - To do that I would have had to talk to him, and it would be silly or irrational to talk to what isn't there. That's what schizophrenics do!
But thank you for your pointless advice nontheless- Lol!!
I liked Juergen............He had his eye on the ball. R.I.P.
Why do you always seem so triumphant Ray, when you make reference to people dying??
If you genuinely believe they are "roasting in eternal perditions flames", can you notch it up as a success? Do you think their death has vindicated your point of view , or made any point for you at all?
@MegaSage007 "We don't rejoice in your dying in your sins, neither will you"
Ha ha! - Don't worry guys! If my sinful life hasn't killed me by now, I've got long past it!
As for your bronze age superstitions, that I'll have to answer to some celestial court for the the "crime" of being human, that isn't even a consideration.
Reason, science, and the dishonesty required to credit or defend every form of theism, has long rendered that threat laughable!
@MegaSage007 You do know the person you are talking to is an antiest, you can't threaten him with the wrath of god, because he does not believe in him. That is like me threatening you with the wrath of Allah, if wouldn't do a thing for you because you don't believe he exists therefore your not scared by that threat. I think you just ran out of an argument, so you turned to just warning him of your oh so scary god.
@sebastienseansham The 24/7 multi tasking self sustaining systems of the Universe functioning thousands perhaps billions of years are EVIDENCE OF EXTRAORDINARY DESIGN and EXTRAORDINARY DESIGN REQUIRES AN EXTRAORDINARY DESIGNER. When God makes a vehicle like the earth, we travel on it a million 500,000 miles in the last 24 hrs without a bump in the orbit & there is no need for a pilot, refueling, servicing or maintenance but man makes a plane requiring all four entanglements. God is Extraordinary
@MegaSage007 Earth was bound to happen, in a universe this big and old. There are probably other plants in the universe just like this. We don't know who or what created this universe, but we don't just automatically say it was your god. Anyway couldn't be be any god of any religion that created the universe if that's what your saying, so it doesn't prove your god at all or any god.
This videos are pathetic. This person only instigates people that have no clue or are indifferent towards philosophical views. And perhaps they do interview well read and educated individuals, but it's on their best interest to omit their responses. We don't want the 'sheep herd' to start asking questions.
If a man murders another man who hasn't accepted jeeeeesus and then repents and accepts jeeeeeeeeeeesus, the murder goes to heaven and the victim goes to hell and god is good an just.
If hittler lived long enough after he shot himself to repent, then he could be in heaven, while his victims who didn't accept jesus burn in hell. And god is good and just. That is one sick religion.
God for you Jurgen, you didn't let this fast talking little creep bully you with his filthy garbage. He even got the golden rule wrong. I still would like to know how much ray makes. He claims to have sold 70 million books.
@bogusnachos 70 million books? Not quite. I think you accidentally hit your exaggeration "button" that is normally reserved for evolution facts. BTW, Juergen was tragically killed by a motorist while riding on his bike a month or so ago. He didn't live for 20 more years as he thought he would. None of us are promised tomorrow. Get right with God now.
@bogusnachos It's quite difficult to come up with an accurate number due to the 70+ titles over the last 30 years, but it's most likely in the million plus range sold/given away.
@thewayofthemaster I don't think he was saying he though he would live another 20 years, it's just that the common life span of a person in country like America is around 80 years.
So, will you be able to enjoy heaven if your loved ones are burning in hell?
If you have friends, or family, or even a partner who is an atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon - or just the wrong type of Christian... or whose faith was weak... But they were good people and you loved
them. Will you be able to be happy in heaven knowing they're burning in hell? That is the question...
Theist question what will you do if your most beloved person is in hell and you are in heaven but she or he is morally good but don't have the same faith as you to believe in your God?
Jurgen died 14 months later in an accident, was riden over by a car after being knocked of his bicycle by another car, as he said he lived a full life, very few regrets and he had no fear of death.
The more practice you get, the easier it gets... but it's never comfortable. It's amazing the comfort after you get into conversation about it and then later leave though, it's never that bad. Now preaching aloud I have yet to do, but plan on in the future God willing. I have a brother who said "Do you pick up your cross daily" ... well yeah, "Is picking up a cross daily comfortable?" ...nope..
Bruce opened up and told you his thoughts. RAY all you did was Chatter like a monkey, The Holy Spirit and Gods word ministers in PRAISE and Worship. Not by street condeming preaching that ONLY GLORIFES YOU......God will deal with you chatter box......I doubt you have saved anyone, they just want to get away from your loveless chatter....see u in HB
Why did he get a bypass? well because he only gets 1 life! The ones I would be asking why they get medical help are the ones that believe in an eternal afterlife.
Just want to correct something. The Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." NOT "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." I guess in practice, they are basically the same, though.
Seriously know Jesus Christ is the LORD and SAVIOUR before your time is...this man thought he would have another 20 MORE YEARS TILL DEATH in LESS THAN TWO he was DEAD !!!
reading his obitiuary on legacy. com slash orange county, what's the point of gaining the whole wide world if you lose both your soul and body forever!!
Planting in the mind of an old man with heart problems the idea that he might have a minor heart attack in bed that very night and turn to Jesus to save him is a disgusting thing to do.
Is there no level you won't lower yourself to Ray?
Actually Ray will go to any length as will I to help someone find the truth before its too late. Thats called caring. If you care about your fellow man, you will go to any length to save him. We never know when we will die and face our Creator. If you don't believe in a Creator then I hope you will watch this video a few more times and really think about it and research these passages in the bible. John 3:16
If some passing boys had thrown petrol on him and burned him to death, would you think they were beautiful?
What if they kidnapped him, locked him in a room, and then tortured him horribly for 20 years he thought he had left to live? Would you think they are beautiful?
Yet you think that he is currently imprisoned in a lack of fire, burning to death for eternity without being allowed to die.
And you worship the entity that is doing that to him?
@TheRationalizer Each one of us makes a choice in where we will go when we die. God does not do this to us we do it to ourselves by not believing in the son of God and not living according to God. God does not want anyone to go to hell. Hell was created for Satan and the fallen angels. But it is true, anyone not believing in jesus, not repenting of their sin and continuing to live a worldly life without God will forever be separated from God on judgement day.
And it is god who makes the choice to burn us in a lake of fire for all eternity. An infinite punishment for a finite crime...which makes it infinitely unjust.
God knows everything?
God makes no mistakes?
God made Satan knowing it would "sin".
Knowing the consequences of its actions and proceeding anyway means god deliberately created sin, and then burns us for eternity for its own perverted creation.
And you don't find the idea of eternal punishment in fire somewhat "evil"? Especially for the "sin" of not believing a book with claims which defy the laws of physics with no corroborating evidence.
I am choosing to reject text written in a book because it comes with absolutely no proof what so ever. I can only choose to burn in hell forever if I believe in it, if I do not believe in it then you cannot say I am *choosing* to go there.
If I deserve hell for performing "evil" acts then god deserves hell for creating evil. Creating all evil is the most evil thing that can be done.
@TheRationalizer God didn't create robots; he created humans with free will. He gave man the choice to follow good or evil. He didn't create man to be evil and do evil. We have a choice every day to do good to our neighbor or to do bad.We all have chosen to do evil but that is our choice.Will we be punished for it?Yes.A good judge will judge righteously. But God has made a way for every man to be forgiven & the fact that man chooses to reject that & continu in sin, shows his lack of repentance
But for humans to choose to do evil, evil must exist. I couldn't do evil things if evil did not exist. God created evil, and that is in itself an evil act.
I didn't say anything about god killing. I said that god created the phenomenon of being able to perform evil acts, he therefore created evil making him ultimately responsible for all evil in the world.
@TheRationalizer You sould just like Adam, you are putting the blame on God. God gave Adam a choice. If they did not eat the fruit then this would be a peaceful world.
Why did god create that fruit? Why would an all loving god create creatures which can be tempted, create a fruit which would cause untold suffering to billions of people, and also satan whom he presumably knew would successfully tempt them?
Did god not know that satan would successfully tempt adam and eve when it made all this stuff?
So what is more evil? The one who performs an evil act, or the one who knowingly and deliberately made it possible for billions to commit that evil act despite it being within their power not to?
@TheRationalizer for this to go on you must answer my question on speaking in tongues. How do you explain people speaking in other tongues without knowing the what they are saying and someone from that native tongue understanding it? The answer to your post is the one who did the act is more evil that is just common sense as I said before.
Man creates robot knowing it will kill people. Robot kills people. Man is responsible.
God creates man knowing it will kill people. Man kills people. Man is responsible.
Double standards - it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, you are simply avoiding the issue because you know that the god you believe in is ultimately the source of all evil.
@TheRationalizer. I am just trying to make a point that there is a God because the gift of tongues. So what if in your opinion if God is evil and letting people make a choice in rejecting His gift of salvation. He gets glory by poeple in he double hockey stick or in heaven.
1: He didn't know it would happen, therefore is not all knowing
2: Couldn't stop if from happening, therefore is not all powerful
3: Knew it would happen and could stop it but chose not to, therefore is the most evil entity in existence and deserves eternity in hell much more than any human that is guilty merely of performing evil acts.
Something has got to give, or you worship an evil entity.
@TheRationalizer Your premises of evil is wrong RBHill. Evil is not a thing. Its an absence of Good. Like a hole in a donut is an absence of the donut. God made people in his image, upright and good, FREE WILLED ect. People CHOSE to not love God and as a result they have done what is not good. They sinned against the eternal holy God and deserve a punishment of equal measure. But God provided one way for man to be saved from such a punishment,not because he had to or we deserve it...
@TheRationalizer Man didn't have a lack of good. Just as anyone can do something good for another, Man CHOSE not to be good. The word I used was to love. If man loves God than he will follow his comandments. If you love your mother you won't steal from her or lie to her or kill her. God doesn't force his love on people and he doesn't force you to love Him. Just as a person may have an abundance of money but choose not to spend it, as does he have an abundance of love - CHOOSES not to love
To describe the act of brutal torture and murder as "an absence of good" is grossly inaccurate. I am sitting here doing no good deeds because I am watching TV. Watching TV is the "absence of good"
Who created the ability to have "an absence of good"?
@TheRationalizer the description of the act of brutal torture or murder is by no means 'grossly inacurate'; its not even a smidge of inacuraccy. In fact its not directed at murder and torture alone but It's one description that somes up all acts of evil. If someone had a knife and wanted to torture someone slowly, that person wouldn't do that if that person loved that person. Or people don't murder people they love. It's because they DONT love they will in turn do whatever act of evil.
This isn't about love at all. Your claim is that evil is merely the absence of good. That is grossly inaccurate. As is your statement that killing occurs as a lack of love.
1: There is an absence of good in my actions at this very moment but I am not killing.
2: I don't love complete strangers, yet I do not kill them.
Evil is no more a product of "absence of good" than good is "an absence of evil". There is a middle ground too, an absence of both - would you agree?
@TheRationalizer The act of murder is not just some random thing. There are events that lead up to it. When the event finally occurs, it does come from the absence of love. The person doesn't love that person enough to care about that individuals life. I didn't say that murder is spontaniously spawned from not loving someone in the moment. It pertains to the actually event.
@TheRationalizer well being more specific, whether its reading the newspaper or watching the newspaper, it comes down to the content that you allow yourself dwell on. If you read the newspaper to see whats going on in the world, your revealing truth to yourself. Which isnt bad. It is good to be informed on the direction of our country for example. But if your perving contently at womens body in lingerie ad in the newspaper, than thats bad. Things aren't bad it comes down to how they're used
@TheRationalizer im simply examining down your vague statement more elabratley. Saying "reading a newspaper, is that good or bad" tells me nothing. The same logic is saying "that is using a knife good or bad?" ; "are using your hands good or bad?" HOW are they used? All I know is its being used for something, but what? Is a newspaper crossword puzzle bad? No. It if it stimulates critical thinking, and if its not distroying the sanctity of life in anyway so its its good...
@TheRationalizer What im catching from you, is your trying to make a situation neither bad or good but some type of both. some middle ground. But its impossible to have a middle ground due to logic and reason our universe works. Something is either true or false. If I say my dog is in back of my truck it is either in back of my truck or not in back of my truck. Its not both in back of my truck and not in back of my truck in the same way in the same sense. Same goes for good and evil...
No, the world is not based on boolean logic. What about when your dog is in the process of getting into your truck, it's front half is in and its back half is out. Does "My dog is in my truck" equal true or false?
@TheRationalizer To some it all up all goes back to this...the bible says the eyes of the Lord went throughout the whole world and didn't find one reightous, no not one. that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the penalty of sin is death (eternal death). The bible doesnt say that there are 'irrelevant' people in the world neither good or bad, it says there can only be bad people or good people, not badgood or goodbad people. Thats an oximoron
That means god made people a certain way knowing in advance what they would be like, set his expectations impossibly high, and then burns people in fire for all eternity for acting exactly how he designed them and failing to meet his unreasonable standards.
@TheRationalizer You almost got it. The bible says that God created man with a free will. He could of made us robots or puppets in which he would force his love on us or we would be force to love him, but in essence that isn't love. So we have a free will. God knew Adam would sin, because hes allknowing, still told Adam and Even not to sin, to protect them, but let them decide their own fate. And we know what happened there. But straight from that moment God promised a way out from hell...
@TheRationalizer Your exactly right, but more accuratley, the standard is perfection. Being perfectly good. I have to go to the post office ill be back in a little bit.
So this entity set the standard to perfection and then deliberately created imperfect beings incapable of meeting those standards. It then tortures us in a lake of burning fire for eternity for not meeting the standards it made impossible for us to meet.
@TheRationalizer So if the standard is being perfectly good and man fails to meet that standard. What can man do? Man can't do anything in his own merrit, which is why all work based religions fail, because good deeds don't cover bad deeds. Just as if someone murdered someone and goes to the judge and says "but look at the good things i've done" the judge will be like "it doesnt change the fact that you murdered someone". ...
@TheRationalizer If God turned his face on peoples sin and let people into heaven with sin, than he would not be just, he would be corrupt. God can still love and still send people to hell. So how does God legally fix our dellema? How does he satisfy his holy justice and display His love? He pays the payment for our penalty that we can't pay for ourselves. How? God comes down, takes on the nature of man. Lives a perfectly sinless life that we couldn't. Recieved the punishment we deserved
@TheRationalizer I would see it as a fairy tale if the events that took place weren't history accurate and historical true, and people called Christians weren't persecuted and murdered like how even secular historians said they were. If the bible consisted of places that didnt exist, or didn't consist of 2,500 accurate prophecies in which 2/3 already came true. But the bible is historical, so it fails to meet the standard of a fairy tale.
@TheRationalizer The law like in law is real. It is put there to be respected and obeyed to function as protection for the sanctity of life. Say your driving down a road i your car and you get to a stop sign and stop. You do that a few times. Than you go down the road and you run the stop sign and a cop pulls you over, and goes to give you a ticket , you can say "oh but I stopped at all those other stop signs though!" The cop will say "so what, your supose to stop at those signs always!"
@TheRationalizer 1.What you call goals, arent goals they are laws. 2.Laws are always ment to be kept. If someone cant keep their hands from stealing its not anyones fault but theirs that stole. Its not impossible refrain from stealing. 3.When people break laws they then recieve justice. Its evil to not provide justice, or to obscure or bend justice. If someone murdered someone you loved and the judge let that murderer go free, it be evil for the judge to let the murder go free
@TheRationalizer im talking about Jesus, by the way, He drank God's wrath died and three days later rose from dead and defeated death. And he said "because I live, you live". God COMMANDS people to repent and believe in Jesus as your lord and savior. God commands people to live. Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the THE LIFE and no man comes to the father but through me". God always wanted people to live but men spit on the Gods feet, and say "no! I dont want you! or your way!"
@TheRationalizer and it all comes back to your original argument of God being evil. The bible says that "God so LOVED the world he sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. God didn't have to do that. But he did because he loves people, and he did it to in a way that doesnt contradict His very nature, but instead upholds who He is.
But why did a non-evil entity create the most evil place in existence so that it could torture people with the most evil physical punishment possible for the most evil duration possible (eternity).
Why not just let those people die as they expect to, and only reward those "good" people by giving them heaven. Is that not more just?
@TheRationalizer hell isnt an evil place anymore that a prison is an evil place. Just as prison is a place to send criminals as is hell. The determination a punishment of a crime is equal to whom its commited against. If you get a caught with a little pot you get a small punishment, a lot of pot you get a heftier punishment. When you sin you sin against a infinitely holy God, so you would therfore deserve a punishment of infinite value
Okay, so if given a choice between a prison sentence for 2 years, and having your flesh burned repeatedly for 2 years you would be happy to flip a coin to decide or would you rather make a specific choice yourself?
@TheRationalizer its not your choice to decide your punishment. You may be given an option of paying it with some high price or serving time. In the case of sinning against an infinite God, is the only thing of infite value is your soul. Or like I mentioned before, recieving the gift of grace God provided, through Jesus Christ
If someone kidnaps me at gunpoint and electrocutes my testicles for no reason I won't have a choice either, but I will certainly have an opinion as to whether or not it is fair.
So, please answer my question. Is the scenario I described not an evil act?
@TheRationalizer ya if some kidnaps you with a gun and tortures you against your will, that certainly is evil on the kidnappers part from everything you said in that question ...:/
So, let's say that this kidnapper decided to do this because I am bald. They have decided that bald people are deficient, and according to their law bald people should have their testicles electrocuted.
It was not my choice to decide my punishment for a fact that was beyond my control, but do I at least have the right to say that the punishment is evil and unjust?
@TheRationalizer unfortunatley objective realities aren't subject to mans opinions, such as I can't stop a orange from falling if I let go of it, or I can't make a woman love me if I simpy hoped she would. I can't bend justice by saying I don't believe in it. Your opinion wont stop the ball destroying kidnappers from destroying your marbles
I particularly liked the "law" where children are punished for events which took place before they are even born
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me"
I have no idea why you believe this rubbish is true.
@TheRationalizer I have no idea if you believe its not true why you even waste your time trying to refute it all. "Drink and be merry for tomarrow we die" says the unbelivers in the bible. What I think, is that if this is all true than your concious is subjected to a constant feeling of uneasyness and the only way you try and supress that feeling is by trying to make these things that Christians share false. I dont know what you live for but I hope find your way twords Christ someday
Tell me. Do you think you will enjoy your eternity in hell knowing your neighbours are burning for eternity in hell? Do you think you will ever think of them and be sad?
@TheRationalizer Im not going to hell, because I recieved the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, and no I don't enjoy the thought of people burning in hell, in fact it is incredibley sad! Which is exactly why us Christians go around proclaiming the gospel, so that people might get saved if they recieve the gift of salvation by repenting of their sin and putting their faith and trust in the one who defeated death, Jesus Christ our Lord. But like you people say 'salvation? no thanks.'
@TheRationalizer I will enjoy heaven because my maker will be there, and as the bible said, there will be no more sin or death. Its hard to imagine a world without sin, but that is what it will be like. When the thought of suffering comes to mind its never a joyful feeling. But people do make their decisions in where they will spend eternity, by accepting or denying Gods free gift. Like any free gift, a person can take or or deny it, the decision is theirs.
Do you think you will ever think about those poor people in hell? Do you think you will ever imagine them writhing in agony, screaming, begging to be let out of the fire as it tears the skin from their bodies?
Do you think that whilst you are in heaven you will think about them even once?
"Do you think you will ever think about those poor people in hell? Do you think you will ever imagine them writhing in agony, screaming, begging to be let out of the fire as it tears the skin from their bodies?
Do you think that whilst you are in heaven you will think about them even once?"
Seems like a fair question, I wonder why you didn't get an answer?
@TheRationalizer Well as the bible says God is Holy. Which means hes perfectly good. He doesnt condone evil in anyway or form. You wont read in the 10 commandments: Thou shalt crush people nuts because they were born without hair. Thou shalt kill people who arent Christian. ect. Instead you ONLY see HOLY laws "THough shalt not Murder, though shalt not steal, ect. Tell me one unholy law of God. You wont find one. God has always been Holy in nature, and he always will uphold holiness
@TheRationalizer ya if some kidnaps you with a gun and tortures you against your will, FOR NO REASON that certainly is evil on the kidnappers part from everything you said in that question ...:/
@TheRationalizer To some it all up all goes back to this...the bible says the eyes of the Lord went throughout the whole world and didn't find one reightous, no not one. that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the penalty of sin is death (eternal death). The bible doesnt say that there are 'irrelevant' people in the world neither good or bad, it says there can only be bad people or good people, not badgood or goodbad people. Thats an oximoron its.. completley illogical
@TheRationalizer (...wrote newspaper twice, ment watching TV the second time I said it*) Heres another example. If I had a steak knife. It is good to use it to cut your food into small peices and eat, because eating is essential for the sanctity of life. But if i used that knife in a bad way, and stabbed and killed someone thats bad because it destroys the sanctity of life. It all comes down to the contex of the situation.
@TheRationalizer and if that wasnt clear enough, asking is reading a newpaper bad is like saying, is useing a steak knife bad? What are these things being used for? God made gave us all kinds of things to be used for good, like our hands. We use our hands to eat, build homes/fix/use tools, hug, ect. God comands people not to murder, steal ect. people do it anyways. So are hands bad or good? It comes down to how they are used
@TheRationalizer But Jesus said if you ever hated someone, you commited murder in your heart. Why? Because thats where it starts. Someone hurts you, you think upon it, and you have the choice to either forgive them (love) or hate them (no love). If you continue to meditate upon it long enough, it may end up in murder.
@TheRationalizer I believe that good is the the substance because my world view supports it. Because the bible says God is good. And God never changes. So my world view supports that things are good and evil. Because just as there has to be a artist to produce art, there has to be a moral law giver to establish a moral law. If there is no moral law giver than there is no such thing as right from wrong, good or evil. Tell me where you establish your basis for good and evil
@TheRationalizer Who says watching TV is wrong? God says looking at anything perfversley is wrong. If you set the telivision higher priority than God than you love your telivision more than God, than thats wrong. You rate it of higher value than the one who gave you those eyes that watch it, than thats wrong(idolotry). But if you honor God more than your TV, and you watch clean TV out of love of God than thats good. Because you love God you wont watch anything opposed to his very nature.
@TheRationalizer Now "Who created the ability to have "an absence of good"? God created man to have a free will, like I said clearly before. That ability knowing what is good is already in man. Free will is part of man as it is part of God and not only that but the bible even says that God written His perfect law on mans hearts (such as the ten comandments) so man is without excuse. So if man chooses to do the wrong thing, its all on him, because man already knows what is right from wrong...
@TheRationalizer God created hell to bring justice to those are unjustice. If God didn't send people to hell for their crimes than he would be unjust. Just as if a judge said to a someone whos in court for murder "Im a loving judge, your free to go" that would be unjust, and he would be an unjust judge. God created a way to satisfy his Justice and Love at the same time, and that was by paying an infinite valued punishment with and infinite valued payment, which is through Jesus's blood
@TheRationalizer The bible says that "God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten so, that so whoever believes in Him will not perish but yet have everlasting life". And he says salvation is a by grace so that no man may boast. In other words no matter what man thinks he can do to earn his way to heaven, there is no other way except through Jesus. And the best thing of all is its a gift. Its free. God comands you to live. He says repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.
... he did it out of love. Your asking the wrong question when you say, "he couldnt stop evil from happening, and him not choosing to stopping evil makes him evil," The question you should be asking yourself is WHY hasn't he just taken your life and everyones life in our sleep, right now?' I mean according to the bible "ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen short of the glory of God." The answer to that question is because God loves us and is patient and gives us time to repent and believe in Jesus.
If the crime lasts 80 years then it is finite, not infinite.
God is all powerful and all knowing. Therefore not only did it know that creating Satan would also create evil, but based on the idea god does not make mistakes this means god deliberately made Satan this way. God deliberately created evil.
That in itself is an evil act which predates Satan, therefore god is evil.
@TheRationalizer - The crime lasts as long as God exists, which is forever. Why do you insist on applying limited human concepts to God?
Satan chose to rebel of his own free will and was not evil when God created him, so God did not create evil. In fact, evil is not something to be created. Evil is the absence of good, just like cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light. God's preknowledge of Satan's rebellion does not make God evil. Your twisted logic is laughable.
No, the crime lasts from the point it starts to the point it stops. Let's say that is from birth to death, that's on average about 80 years. You cannot continue to disbelieve in god after you die because either
@TheRationalizer - Oh, so you can strangle someone and once the person is dead, you become completely innocent of the crime because it's over. Brilliant logic!
No, because death is an irreversible action, whereas belief in god is not. You either stop disbelieving when you die because there is no afterlife and your brain is no longer able to process thoughts of disbelief, or there is an afterlife and you then stop disbelieving.
The disbelief is not eternal in any scenario, so it is a finite event.
Rest In Peace
DPDandN 1 month ago in playlist Living Waters University
This has been flagged as spam show
WOTM teach works salvation according to the bible, here is 100% proof:
Jonah 3:10 And God saw THEIR WORKS, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
It says God saw "their WORKS" they they turned from their evil way (sins), and in the same verse it says God himself repented...it doesn't mean turn from sin, WOTM are 100% fake phony works salvation, self righteous pharisees. Dont trust them, trust KJV bible
wotmarenotsaved 2 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Whatever you do don't trust Way of the Master, theyre controlled by Satan. The bible says youre saved by faith only (believing only, like it says in Acts 16:30-31), and then if you sin after salvation God will deal with it, so you dont need to worry bout turning from your sins, God will deal with that after youre saved, he will chastise/discipline you for your sins on earth if you sin after salvation (check hebrews 12:6-11, hebrews 10:26-31, psalm 38 etc.) Trust the bible not Way of the Master.
wotmarenotsaved 2 months ago
he should stop going around trying to make people feel bad about themselves so they repent to "god"
cocobutter333 2 months ago
Ray is an ignorant, superstitious bully who should stop terrorizing people with his delusions.
SubconsciousGatherer 4 months ago
Why do Christians insist on butting in on people's souls like we are their responsibilites. I would have told Ray 'Ray, worry about your own damn soul and I will take care of my own'.
orlandobabe 4 months ago
@orlandobabe Are you unable to put yourself in his shoes for a moment? Think about it for a sec. If he is thoroughly convinced that he know the truth about life and death and he truly believes that he can help steer you away from judgement and make you aware of everlasting life without suffering, how much of a jerk would he have to be to keep it to himself? Even IF he is wrong, and I doubt he is, but even IF he is wrong..he truly believes he is right, how could he then not share it?
jewyjewington 1 month ago
Pathetic Christians, you pick on the most out of it people you can find to try to make yourselves appear smart, this guy isnt very smart and seems very out of it. Theres millions of other atheists that will line up to debate you, but ussually when a christian tries to debate with an intellectual the wind up trying to prove the bible is correct by using the bible as proof which of course is the epitome of backward logic, but thats the basis of Christianity right?
epiclulz66 8 months ago
Ray, what kind of education do you have? Oh, and Kirk too...
KeshnerfFilms 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"It's not advisable to tempt the Lord"
Who's tempting anyone??? - To do that I would have had to talk to him, and it would be silly or irrational to talk to what isn't there. That's what schizophrenics do!
But thank you for your pointless advice nontheless- Lol!!
Tobytrim 9 months ago
I liked Juergen............He had his eye on the ball. R.I.P.
Why do you always seem so triumphant Ray, when you make reference to people dying??
If you genuinely believe they are "roasting in eternal perditions flames", can you notch it up as a success? Do you think their death has vindicated your point of view , or made any point for you at all?
Tobytrim 9 months ago
@Tobytrim We don't rejoice in your dying in your sins, neither will you.
MegaSage007 9 months ago
@MegaSage007 "We don't rejoice in your dying in your sins, neither will you"
Ha ha! - Don't worry guys! If my sinful life hasn't killed me by now, I've got long past it!
As for your bronze age superstitions, that I'll have to answer to some celestial court for the the "crime" of being human, that isn't even a consideration.
Reason, science, and the dishonesty required to credit or defend every form of theism, has long rendered that threat laughable!
But you guys gloat a lot at peoples' death!
Tobytrim 9 months ago
@Tobytrim It's not advisable to tempt the Lord.
MegaSage007 9 months ago
@MegaSage007 You do know the person you are talking to is an antiest, you can't threaten him with the wrath of god, because he does not believe in him. That is like me threatening you with the wrath of Allah, if wouldn't do a thing for you because you don't believe he exists therefore your not scared by that threat. I think you just ran out of an argument, so you turned to just warning him of your oh so scary god.
sebastienseansham 9 months ago
@sebastienseansham The 24/7 multi tasking self sustaining systems of the Universe functioning thousands perhaps billions of years are EVIDENCE OF EXTRAORDINARY DESIGN and EXTRAORDINARY DESIGN REQUIRES AN EXTRAORDINARY DESIGNER. When God makes a vehicle like the earth, we travel on it a million 500,000 miles in the last 24 hrs without a bump in the orbit & there is no need for a pilot, refueling, servicing or maintenance but man makes a plane requiring all four entanglements. God is Extraordinary
MegaSage007 9 months ago
@MegaSage007 Earth was bound to happen, in a universe this big and old. There are probably other plants in the universe just like this. We don't know who or what created this universe, but we don't just automatically say it was your god. Anyway couldn't be be any god of any religion that created the universe if that's what your saying, so it doesn't prove your god at all or any god.
sebastienseansham 9 months ago
i wonder what theist think when they see the poor persuasion tactics as performed by mr comfort
880330145789 10 months ago
This videos are pathetic. This person only instigates people that have no clue or are indifferent towards philosophical views. And perhaps they do interview well read and educated individuals, but it's on their best interest to omit their responses. We don't want the 'sheep herd' to start asking questions.
quarrelsomeness 11 months ago
If a man murders another man who hasn't accepted jeeeeesus and then repents and accepts jeeeeeeeeeeesus, the murder goes to heaven and the victim goes to hell and god is good an just.
If hittler lived long enough after he shot himself to repent, then he could be in heaven, while his victims who didn't accept jesus burn in hell. And god is good and just. That is one sick religion.
bogusnachos 11 months ago
God for you Jurgen, you didn't let this fast talking little creep bully you with his filthy garbage. He even got the golden rule wrong. I still would like to know how much ray makes. He claims to have sold 70 million books.
bogusnachos 11 months ago
@bogusnachos 70 million books? Not quite. I think you accidentally hit your exaggeration "button" that is normally reserved for evolution facts. BTW, Juergen was tragically killed by a motorist while riding on his bike a month or so ago. He didn't live for 20 more years as he thought he would. None of us are promised tomorrow. Get right with God now.
thewayofthemaster 11 months ago 5
@thewayofthemaster How many books have you sold?
bogusnachos 11 months ago
@bogusnachos It's quite difficult to come up with an accurate number due to the 70+ titles over the last 30 years, but it's most likely in the million plus range sold/given away.
thewayofthemaster 11 months ago 7
@thewayofthemaster He died? Prove it please.
DaluZwasUnavailable 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@thewayofthemaster I liked Juergen............He had his eye on the ball. R.I.P.
Why do you always seem so triumphant Ray, when you make reference to people dying??
If you genuinely believe they are "roasting in eternal perditions flames", can you notch it up as a success?
Do you think their death has vindicated your point of view , or made any point for you at all?
Tobytrim 9 months ago
@thewayofthemaster I don't think he was saying he though he would live another 20 years, it's just that the common life span of a person in country like America is around 80 years.
sebastienseansham 9 months ago
@bogusnachos why does it matter how many books they have sold? You need to get right with GOD or perish forever!
ghosthunter5656 3 months ago
@ghosthunter5656 yawn.
bogusnachos 3 months ago
So, will you be able to enjoy heaven if your loved ones are burning in hell?
If you have friends, or family, or even a partner who is an atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon - or just the wrong type of Christian... or whose faith was weak... But they were good people and you loved
them. Will you be able to be happy in heaven knowing they're burning in hell? That is the question...
SAHBfan 11 months ago
Theist question what will you do if your most beloved person is in hell and you are in heaven but she or he is morally good but don't have the same faith as you to believe in your God?
MrKimira 11 months ago
PRAISE GOD!!!!! Thank you Jesus for changing my life and saving my soul.
eichoob2105 11 months ago
Of course the first truly intellgent person is European. I like how he's not taking any of your bullshit.
Deadboltt 11 months ago
Comment removed
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
Ratings disabled. :)
rootytuners 1 year ago
who care what Mr. Jesus said.
Jurgen owned this preacher. .
Jurgen died 14 months later in an accident, was riden over by a car after being knocked of his bicycle by another car, as he said he lived a full life, very few regrets and he had no fear of death.
Great man.
What pathetic questions.
saintpine 1 year ago
lol, "sure as hell it's coming". I wish i could deffend the word this well.
thelukeofhazzard 1 year ago
@thelukeofhazzard
The more practice you get, the easier it gets... but it's never comfortable. It's amazing the comfort after you get into conversation about it and then later leave though, it's never that bad. Now preaching aloud I have yet to do, but plan on in the future God willing. I have a brother who said "Do you pick up your cross daily" ... well yeah, "Is picking up a cross daily comfortable?" ...nope..
well there you go
God Bless
droptozro 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
No one wants to die, but you can not be afraid of it.
sebastienseansham 1 year ago
thumbs up if juergen owned lying christians (chest opened by "stranger")
amierdolo 1 year ago
Bruce opened up and told you his thoughts. RAY all you did was Chatter like a monkey, The Holy Spirit and Gods word ministers in PRAISE and Worship. Not by street condeming preaching that ONLY GLORIFES YOU......God will deal with you chatter box......I doubt you have saved anyone, they just want to get away from your loveless chatter....see u in HB
lilhookstertv 1 year ago
Why did he get a bypass? well because he only gets 1 life! The ones I would be asking why they get medical help are the ones that believe in an eternal afterlife.
rosy329 1 year ago
Ray, continue preaching the Word of GOD.
There's always going to be people who are not going to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but many will; and those who do, will be saved.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;
but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:18 (King James Version 1960)
Trulylatino 1 year ago
@Trulylatino Why is faith so important? Why is the only criteria for salvation being a sychophant to an idea?
Keitaro2011 1 year ago
Just want to correct something. The Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." NOT "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." I guess in practice, they are basically the same, though.
crickadoodle1 1 year ago
the man ray interviewed in that video is now dead :(
BeReady7 1 year ago
Seriously know Jesus Christ is the LORD and SAVIOUR before your time is...this man thought he would have another 20 MORE YEARS TILL DEATH in LESS THAN TWO he was DEAD !!!
BloodofJesus4Sinners 1 year ago
Comment removed
BloodofJesus4Sinners 1 year ago
reading his obitiuary on legacy. com slash orange county, what's the point of gaining the whole wide world if you lose both your soul and body forever!!
BloodofJesus4Sinners 1 year ago
Planting in the mind of an old man with heart problems the idea that he might have a minor heart attack in bed that very night and turn to Jesus to save him is a disgusting thing to do.
Is there no level you won't lower yourself to Ray?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer
Actually Ray will go to any length as will I to help someone find the truth before its too late. Thats called caring. If you care about your fellow man, you will go to any length to save him. We never know when we will die and face our Creator. If you don't believe in a Creator then I hope you will watch this video a few more times and really think about it and research these passages in the bible. John 3:16
butteproperty 1 year ago
@butteproperty
That's rubbish. Trying to implant the fear of a minor heart attack into an old man with heart problems is a disgusting thing to do.
You think that nice old man is burning in hell fire for eternity now?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer Yes I do think that that nice old man is burning in hell if he didn't take Ray's advice and get right with JESUS before he died.
DianeSumler 1 year ago
@DianeSumler
If some passing boys had thrown petrol on him and burned him to death, would you think they were beautiful?
What if they kidnapped him, locked him in a room, and then tortured him horribly for 20 years he thought he had left to live? Would you think they are beautiful?
Yet you think that he is currently imprisoned in a lack of fire, burning to death for eternity without being allowed to die.
And you worship the entity that is doing that to him?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer Each one of us makes a choice in where we will go when we die. God does not do this to us we do it to ourselves by not believing in the son of God and not living according to God. God does not want anyone to go to hell. Hell was created for Satan and the fallen angels. But it is true, anyone not believing in jesus, not repenting of their sin and continuing to live a worldly life without God will forever be separated from God on judgement day.
suzyq67671 1 year ago
@suzyq67671
And it is god who makes the choice to burn us in a lake of fire for all eternity. An infinite punishment for a finite crime...which makes it infinitely unjust.
God knows everything?
God makes no mistakes?
God made Satan knowing it would "sin".
Knowing the consequences of its actions and proceeding anyway means god deliberately created sin, and then burns us for eternity for its own perverted creation.
You are worshipping a man made perception of god.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer People choose to go to hell for rejecting the Gospel.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
And you don't find the idea of eternal punishment in fire somewhat "evil"? Especially for the "sin" of not believing a book with claims which defy the laws of physics with no corroborating evidence.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer no because it is peoples choice to go there.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
God created the universe.
God created evil.
God created humans knowing how they would act.
God created hell.
God created the criteria by which people would go to hell.
God then said "take what appears to be a far fetched story book, if you believe it is true I won't burn you"
God is the source of evil, is unreasonable, unjust, and less merciful than I am.
Nobody chooses to burn for eternity, what a ridiculous claim!
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer If you know of the Gospel of Jesus and reject it you are chosing to burn in hell forever.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
No I am not.
I am choosing to reject text written in a book because it comes with absolutely no proof what so ever. I can only choose to burn in hell forever if I believe in it, if I do not believe in it then you cannot say I am *choosing* to go there.
If I deserve hell for performing "evil" acts then god deserves hell for creating evil. Creating all evil is the most evil thing that can be done.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer God didn't create robots; he created humans with free will. He gave man the choice to follow good or evil. He didn't create man to be evil and do evil. We have a choice every day to do good to our neighbor or to do bad.We all have chosen to do evil but that is our choice.Will we be punished for it?Yes.A good judge will judge righteously. But God has made a way for every man to be forgiven & the fact that man chooses to reject that & continu in sin, shows his lack of repentance
thesacredcowtipper 1 year ago
@thesacredcowtipper
But for humans to choose to do evil, evil must exist. I couldn't do evil things if evil did not exist. God created evil, and that is in itself an evil act.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer God is the on that defines evil, so therefore if he kills it is not evil to him.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
I didn't say anything about god killing. I said that god created the phenomenon of being able to perform evil acts, he therefore created evil making him ultimately responsible for all evil in the world.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer You sould just like Adam, you are putting the blame on God. God gave Adam a choice. If they did not eat the fruit then this would be a peaceful world.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
Why did god create that fruit? Why would an all loving god create creatures which can be tempted, create a fruit which would cause untold suffering to billions of people, and also satan whom he presumably knew would successfully tempt them?
Did god not know that satan would successfully tempt adam and eve when it made all this stuff?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer Why would an all loving God give us Jesus as a sacrific to save us?
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
I note that you completely avoided my question, why is that?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer The answer is in the Bible. I wasn't trying to aviod it. I was answering it the best i could.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
It was not an answer to my question.
If god created something it knew for a fact would create evil yet decided to create it anyway, did god not create evil?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer I would say that He did not create evil. The Devil chose to do evil.
But still if God on the Christians gave us Jesus so what then if He created evil. But the God of the Bible can not sin.
As an Atheist can you explain to me what speacking in Tongues is.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
Does god know everything?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer Well I am not God so I wouldn't Know. But acording to the book of Rev. I asume He does.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
So he knew that his creation Satan would create evil then?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer so what if He did. that is a common sense answer.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
So what is more evil? The one who performs an evil act, or the one who knowingly and deliberately made it possible for billions to commit that evil act despite it being within their power not to?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer for this to go on you must answer my question on speaking in tongues. How do you explain people speaking in other tongues without knowing the what they are saying and someone from that native tongue understanding it? The answer to your post is the one who did the act is more evil that is just common sense as I said before.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
Man creates robot knowing it will kill people. Robot kills people. Man is responsible.
God creates man knowing it will kill people. Man kills people. Man is responsible.
Double standards - it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, you are simply avoiding the issue because you know that the god you believe in is ultimately the source of all evil.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer. I am just trying to make a point that there is a God because the gift of tongues. So what if in your opinion if God is evil and letting people make a choice in rejecting His gift of salvation. He gets glory by poeple in he double hockey stick or in heaven.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
We aren't discussing whether or not god exists.
>So what if god in your opinion is evil.
I think we have firmly established that you accept god created all evil, have we not?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer with all do respect this discussion is over. You can respond if you want.
My answer to you ? Is I don't believe God created evil. And so what if He did create it.
RBHILL300 1 year ago
@RBHILL300
If God is not responsible for evil then either
1: He didn't know it would happen, therefore is not all knowing
2: Couldn't stop if from happening, therefore is not all powerful
3: Knew it would happen and could stop it but chose not to, therefore is the most evil entity in existence and deserves eternity in hell much more than any human that is guilty merely of performing evil acts.
Something has got to give, or you worship an evil entity.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer Your premises of evil is wrong RBHill. Evil is not a thing. Its an absence of Good. Like a hole in a donut is an absence of the donut. God made people in his image, upright and good, FREE WILLED ect. People CHOSE to not love God and as a result they have done what is not good. They sinned against the eternal holy God and deserve a punishment of equal measure. But God provided one way for man to be saved from such a punishment,not because he had to or we deserve it...
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Who created the ability to have a lack of good?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer Man didn't have a lack of good. Just as anyone can do something good for another, Man CHOSE not to be good. The word I used was to love. If man loves God than he will follow his comandments. If you love your mother you won't steal from her or lie to her or kill her. God doesn't force his love on people and he doesn't force you to love Him. Just as a person may have an abundance of money but choose not to spend it, as does he have an abundance of love - CHOOSES not to love
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
To describe the act of brutal torture and murder as "an absence of good" is grossly inaccurate. I am sitting here doing no good deeds because I am watching TV. Watching TV is the "absence of good"
Who created the ability to have "an absence of good"?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer the description of the act of brutal torture or murder is by no means 'grossly inacurate'; its not even a smidge of inacuraccy. In fact its not directed at murder and torture alone but It's one description that somes up all acts of evil. If someone had a knife and wanted to torture someone slowly, that person wouldn't do that if that person loved that person. Or people don't murder people they love. It's because they DONT love they will in turn do whatever act of evil.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
This isn't about love at all. Your claim is that evil is merely the absence of good. That is grossly inaccurate. As is your statement that killing occurs as a lack of love.
1: There is an absence of good in my actions at this very moment but I am not killing.
2: I don't love complete strangers, yet I do not kill them.
Evil is no more a product of "absence of good" than good is "an absence of evil". There is a middle ground too, an absence of both - would you agree?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer The act of murder is not just some random thing. There are events that lead up to it. When the event finally occurs, it does come from the absence of love. The person doesn't love that person enough to care about that individuals life. I didn't say that murder is spontaniously spawned from not loving someone in the moment. It pertains to the actually event.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
You avoided my question by focusing on a specific act.
Would you agree that by reading a newspaper I am neither doing good or bad?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer well being more specific, whether its reading the newspaper or watching the newspaper, it comes down to the content that you allow yourself dwell on. If you read the newspaper to see whats going on in the world, your revealing truth to yourself. Which isnt bad. It is good to be informed on the direction of our country for example. But if your perving contently at womens body in lingerie ad in the newspaper, than thats bad. Things aren't bad it comes down to how they're used
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
Comment removed
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
Comment removed
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
You're trying to turn reading the newspaper into a potentially evil act when it was clearly used as an example of something irrelevant.
Let's say I am doing a book of crosswords. Would you agree that I am doing neither good or bad?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer im simply examining down your vague statement more elabratley. Saying "reading a newspaper, is that good or bad" tells me nothing. The same logic is saying "that is using a knife good or bad?" ; "are using your hands good or bad?" HOW are they used? All I know is its being used for something, but what? Is a newspaper crossword puzzle bad? No. It if it stimulates critical thinking, and if its not distroying the sanctity of life in anyway so its its good...
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
No, doing a crossword puzzle is neither "good" or "bad". There is an absence of good, and yet it is not evil.
Evil is not "the absence of good", it is a deliberate act of malice.
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer What im catching from you, is your trying to make a situation neither bad or good but some type of both. some middle ground. But its impossible to have a middle ground due to logic and reason our universe works. Something is either true or false. If I say my dog is in back of my truck it is either in back of my truck or not in back of my truck. Its not both in back of my truck and not in back of my truck in the same way in the same sense. Same goes for good and evil...
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
No, the world is not based on boolean logic. What about when your dog is in the process of getting into your truck, it's front half is in and its back half is out. Does "My dog is in my truck" equal true or false?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer To some it all up all goes back to this...the bible says the eyes of the Lord went throughout the whole world and didn't find one reightous, no not one. that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the penalty of sin is death (eternal death). The bible doesnt say that there are 'irrelevant' people in the world neither good or bad, it says there can only be bad people or good people, not badgood or goodbad people. Thats an oximoron
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
So, everyone in the entire world is bad then?
That means god made people a certain way knowing in advance what they would be like, set his expectations impossibly high, and then burns people in fire for all eternity for acting exactly how he designed them and failing to meet his unreasonable standards.
Does that sound about right?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer You almost got it. The bible says that God created man with a free will. He could of made us robots or puppets in which he would force his love on us or we would be force to love him, but in essence that isn't love. So we have a free will. God knew Adam would sin, because hes allknowing, still told Adam and Even not to sin, to protect them, but let them decide their own fate. And we know what happened there. But straight from that moment God promised a way out from hell...
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
But every human on Earth fails god's high standards, right?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer Your exactly right, but more accuratley, the standard is perfection. Being perfectly good. I have to go to the post office ill be back in a little bit.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
Comment removed
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
So this entity set the standard to perfection and then deliberately created imperfect beings incapable of meeting those standards. It then tortures us in a lake of burning fire for eternity for not meeting the standards it made impossible for us to meet.
And you say this entity is not evil?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer So if the standard is being perfectly good and man fails to meet that standard. What can man do? Man can't do anything in his own merrit, which is why all work based religions fail, because good deeds don't cover bad deeds. Just as if someone murdered someone and goes to the judge and says "but look at the good things i've done" the judge will be like "it doesnt change the fact that you murdered someone". ...
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer If God turned his face on peoples sin and let people into heaven with sin, than he would not be just, he would be corrupt. God can still love and still send people to hell. So how does God legally fix our dellema? How does he satisfy his holy justice and display His love? He pays the payment for our penalty that we can't pay for ourselves. How? God comes down, takes on the nature of man. Lives a perfectly sinless life that we couldn't. Recieved the punishment we deserved
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
So to forgive our sins would be corrupt, but if I believe a fairy tale is real then it will forgive our sins and it won't be corrupt?
Do you not see that this is a man made condition in order to propagate a man made religion? It's purpose is merely to spread the religion.
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer I would see it as a fairy tale if the events that took place weren't history accurate and historical true, and people called Christians weren't persecuted and murdered like how even secular historians said they were. If the bible consisted of places that didnt exist, or didn't consist of 2,500 accurate prophecies in which 2/3 already came true. But the bible is historical, so it fails to meet the standard of a fairy tale.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Fairy tale aside...
1: Create impossibly high goals
2: Create something which cannot possibly achieve those goals
3: When it fails, torture it relentlessly for eternity
Is that not an evil act?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer The law like in law is real. It is put there to be respected and obeyed to function as protection for the sanctity of life. Say your driving down a road i your car and you get to a stop sign and stop. You do that a few times. Than you go down the road and you run the stop sign and a cop pulls you over, and goes to give you a ticket , you can say "oh but I stopped at all those other stop signs though!" The cop will say "so what, your supose to stop at those signs always!"
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Please answer the question I asked and not some other question you thought up afterwards :)
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer which question
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer in other words with any law its ment to obeyed perfectly always even in our society
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer in other words with any law its ment to obeyed perfectly always even in our society, no fairy tale, its the way the law works
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer 1.What you call goals, arent goals they are laws. 2.Laws are always ment to be kept. If someone cant keep their hands from stealing its not anyones fault but theirs that stole. Its not impossible refrain from stealing. 3.When people break laws they then recieve justice. Its evil to not provide justice, or to obscure or bend justice. If someone murdered someone you loved and the judge let that murderer go free, it be evil for the judge to let the murder go free
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
There are "laws" which are impossible to keep are there not?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer Not of my knowlege, would you like to tell me which ones?
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Okay, is it a sin to get angry? What about to be sexually attracted to someone? What about a starving person who steals food to live?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer im talking about Jesus, by the way, He drank God's wrath died and three days later rose from dead and defeated death. And he said "because I live, you live". God COMMANDS people to repent and believe in Jesus as your lord and savior. God commands people to live. Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the THE LIFE and no man comes to the father but through me". God always wanted people to live but men spit on the Gods feet, and say "no! I dont want you! or your way!"
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer and it all comes back to your original argument of God being evil. The bible says that "God so LOVED the world he sent His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. God didn't have to do that. But he did because he loves people, and he did it to in a way that doesnt contradict His very nature, but instead upholds who He is.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
But why did a non-evil entity create the most evil place in existence so that it could torture people with the most evil physical punishment possible for the most evil duration possible (eternity).
Why not just let those people die as they expect to, and only reward those "good" people by giving them heaven. Is that not more just?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer hell isnt an evil place anymore that a prison is an evil place. Just as prison is a place to send criminals as is hell. The determination a punishment of a crime is equal to whom its commited against. If you get a caught with a little pot you get a small punishment, a lot of pot you get a heftier punishment. When you sin you sin against a infinitely holy God, so you would therfore deserve a punishment of infinite value
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Okay, so if given a choice between a prison sentence for 2 years, and having your flesh burned repeatedly for 2 years you would be happy to flip a coin to decide or would you rather make a specific choice yourself?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer its not your choice to decide your punishment. You may be given an option of paying it with some high price or serving time. In the case of sinning against an infinite God, is the only thing of infite value is your soul. Or like I mentioned before, recieving the gift of grace God provided, through Jesus Christ
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
If someone kidnaps me at gunpoint and electrocutes my testicles for no reason I won't have a choice either, but I will certainly have an opinion as to whether or not it is fair.
So, please answer my question. Is the scenario I described not an evil act?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer ya if some kidnaps you with a gun and tortures you against your will, that certainly is evil on the kidnappers part from everything you said in that question ...:/
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
So, let's say that this kidnapper decided to do this because I am bald. They have decided that bald people are deficient, and according to their law bald people should have their testicles electrocuted.
It was not my choice to decide my punishment for a fact that was beyond my control, but do I at least have the right to say that the punishment is evil and unjust?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer ya you have the right to say whatever you want.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
So
1: God created a set of laws which are IMPOSSIBLE not to break unless you are perfect.
2: Then it created imperfect humans.
3: Then it choose to torture fallible humans in a lake of fire for eternity for breaking impossible laws.
That is punishing people for something beyond their control. Worse still, punishing them for something god did deliberately.
How is that different from electrocuting my testicles for being bald?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer unfortunatley objective realities aren't subject to mans opinions, such as I can't stop a orange from falling if I let go of it, or I can't make a woman love me if I simpy hoped she would. I can't bend justice by saying I don't believe in it. Your opinion wont stop the ball destroying kidnappers from destroying your marbles
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
So in short your answer is (if I am not mistaken)
"If a human does it then they are evil, but if god does it then it is good in a way we do not understand" - is that right?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
Comment removed
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
"Honor your father and your mother"
"Keep the sabbath day"
I particularly liked the "law" where children are punished for events which took place before they are even born
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me"
I have no idea why you believe this rubbish is true.
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer I have no idea if you believe its not true why you even waste your time trying to refute it all. "Drink and be merry for tomarrow we die" says the unbelivers in the bible. What I think, is that if this is all true than your concious is subjected to a constant feeling of uneasyness and the only way you try and supress that feeling is by trying to make these things that Christians share false. I dont know what you live for but I hope find your way twords Christ someday
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Tell me. Do you think you will enjoy your eternity in hell knowing your neighbours are burning for eternity in hell? Do you think you will ever think of them and be sad?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer Im not going to hell, because I recieved the free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, and no I don't enjoy the thought of people burning in hell, in fact it is incredibley sad! Which is exactly why us Christians go around proclaiming the gospel, so that people might get saved if they recieve the gift of salvation by repenting of their sin and putting their faith and trust in the one who defeated death, Jesus Christ our Lord. But like you people say 'salvation? no thanks.'
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
I am pleased to read that you don't like the idea of me burning in hell, so many Christians range from apathetic to positively revelling in the idea.
So, you find the idea of me burning in hell incredibly sad. Do you think you will enjoy heaven much knowing that people are burning?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer I will enjoy heaven because my maker will be there, and as the bible said, there will be no more sin or death. Its hard to imagine a world without sin, but that is what it will be like. When the thought of suffering comes to mind its never a joyful feeling. But people do make their decisions in where they will spend eternity, by accepting or denying Gods free gift. Like any free gift, a person can take or or deny it, the decision is theirs.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Do you think you will ever think about those poor people in hell? Do you think you will ever imagine them writhing in agony, screaming, begging to be let out of the fire as it tears the skin from their bodies?
Do you think that whilst you are in heaven you will think about them even once?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheRationalizer
"Do you think you will ever think about those poor people in hell? Do you think you will ever imagine them writhing in agony, screaming, begging to be let out of the fire as it tears the skin from their bodies?
Do you think that whilst you are in heaven you will think about them even once?"
Seems like a fair question, I wonder why you didn't get an answer?
SAHBfan 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer Well as the bible says God is Holy. Which means hes perfectly good. He doesnt condone evil in anyway or form. You wont read in the 10 commandments: Thou shalt crush people nuts because they were born without hair. Thou shalt kill people who arent Christian. ect. Instead you ONLY see HOLY laws "THough shalt not Murder, though shalt not steal, ect. Tell me one unholy law of God. You wont find one. God has always been Holy in nature, and he always will uphold holiness
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer ya if some kidnaps you with a gun and tortures you against your will, FOR NO REASON that certainly is evil on the kidnappers part from everything you said in that question ...:/
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer To some it all up all goes back to this...the bible says the eyes of the Lord went throughout the whole world and didn't find one reightous, no not one. that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the penalty of sin is death (eternal death). The bible doesnt say that there are 'irrelevant' people in the world neither good or bad, it says there can only be bad people or good people, not badgood or goodbad people. Thats an oximoron its.. completley illogical
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheRationalizer (...wrote newspaper twice, ment watching TV the second time I said it*) Heres another example. If I had a steak knife. It is good to use it to cut your food into small peices and eat, because eating is essential for the sanctity of life. But if i used that knife in a bad way, and stabbed and killed someone thats bad because it destroys the sanctity of life. It all comes down to the contex of the situation.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer and if that wasnt clear enough, asking is reading a newpaper bad is like saying, is useing a steak knife bad? What are these things being used for? God made gave us all kinds of things to be used for good, like our hands. We use our hands to eat, build homes/fix/use tools, hug, ect. God comands people not to murder, steal ect. people do it anyways. So are hands bad or good? It comes down to how they are used
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer But Jesus said if you ever hated someone, you commited murder in your heart. Why? Because thats where it starts. Someone hurts you, you think upon it, and you have the choice to either forgive them (love) or hate them (no love). If you continue to meditate upon it long enough, it may end up in murder.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer I believe that good is the the substance because my world view supports it. Because the bible says God is good. And God never changes. So my world view supports that things are good and evil. Because just as there has to be a artist to produce art, there has to be a moral law giver to establish a moral law. If there is no moral law giver than there is no such thing as right from wrong, good or evil. Tell me where you establish your basis for good and evil
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer Who says watching TV is wrong? God says looking at anything perfversley is wrong. If you set the telivision higher priority than God than you love your telivision more than God, than thats wrong. You rate it of higher value than the one who gave you those eyes that watch it, than thats wrong(idolotry). But if you honor God more than your TV, and you watch clean TV out of love of God than thats good. Because you love God you wont watch anything opposed to his very nature.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer Now "Who created the ability to have "an absence of good"? God created man to have a free will, like I said clearly before. That ability knowing what is good is already in man. Free will is part of man as it is part of God and not only that but the bible even says that God written His perfect law on mans hearts (such as the ten comandments) so man is without excuse. So if man chooses to do the wrong thing, its all on him, because man already knows what is right from wrong...
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus
Okay, let me put it this way. Who created hell?
TheRationalizer 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer God created hell to bring justice to those are unjustice. If God didn't send people to hell for their crimes than he would be unjust. Just as if a judge said to a someone whos in court for murder "Im a loving judge, your free to go" that would be unjust, and he would be an unjust judge. God created a way to satisfy his Justice and Love at the same time, and that was by paying an infinite valued punishment with and infinite valued payment, which is through Jesus's blood
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@TheRationalizer The bible says that "God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten so, that so whoever believes in Him will not perish but yet have everlasting life". And he says salvation is a by grace so that no man may boast. In other words no matter what man thinks he can do to earn his way to heaven, there is no other way except through Jesus. And the best thing of all is its a gift. Its free. God comands you to live. He says repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
@onlythroughjesus He also said the earth has four corners.
RJPBurtonBoards 11 months ago
... he did it out of love. Your asking the wrong question when you say, "he couldnt stop evil from happening, and him not choosing to stopping evil makes him evil," The question you should be asking yourself is WHY hasn't he just taken your life and everyones life in our sleep, right now?' I mean according to the bible "ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen short of the glory of God." The answer to that question is because God loves us and is patient and gives us time to repent and believe in Jesus.
onlythroughjesus 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@RBHILL300 said: "If you know of the Gospel of Jesus and reject it you are chosing to burn in hell forever."
Thats wonderful. I reject that fairy tale.....HELL I'm coming.
saintpine 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer - A crime against an infinite being is, by definition, not finite.
Yes, God created Satan knowing that Satan would rebel. How is that a mistake? God knew it would happen!
JMcH 1 year ago
@JMcH
If the crime lasts 80 years then it is finite, not infinite.
God is all powerful and all knowing. Therefore not only did it know that creating Satan would also create evil, but based on the idea god does not make mistakes this means god deliberately made Satan this way. God deliberately created evil.
That in itself is an evil act which predates Satan, therefore god is evil.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer - The crime lasts as long as God exists, which is forever. Why do you insist on applying limited human concepts to God?
Satan chose to rebel of his own free will and was not evil when God created him, so God did not create evil. In fact, evil is not something to be created. Evil is the absence of good, just like cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light. God's preknowledge of Satan's rebellion does not make God evil. Your twisted logic is laughable.
JMcH 1 year ago
@JMcH
No, the crime lasts from the point it starts to the point it stops. Let's say that is from birth to death, that's on average about 80 years. You cannot continue to disbelieve in god after you die because either
A: You are completely dead
B: You are in an afterlife and now have evidence
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer - Oh, so you can strangle someone and once the person is dead, you become completely innocent of the crime because it's over. Brilliant logic!
JMcH 1 year ago
@JMcH
No, because death is an irreversible action, whereas belief in god is not. You either stop disbelieving when you die because there is no afterlife and your brain is no longer able to process thoughts of disbelief, or there is an afterlife and you then stop disbelieving.
The disbelief is not eternal in any scenario, so it is a finite event.
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer - Wow. I can see your problem now. A crime against God is not based on belief in God.
JMcH 1 year ago
@JMcH
So why do I go to hell for not believing?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago
@TheRationalizer - You don't got to Hell for not believing.
JMcH 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@JMcH
You go to hell for not accepting Jesus as your saviour, right?
TheRationalizer 1 year ago