Lie #2 Christians Are Just Sinners Saved By Grace

[regas666]

Hmph, i think its just a weak acceptance on an idea that apparently concludes with infinite glory and happiness. Well.....please tell me, what gives a Christian (A human like everyone else, with balanced equality compared throughout) the right to tell any other person that their beliefs are corrupt when them themselves choose to believe in an entity that displays more threats than solace. Don't do this, don't do that. If anything, its just an easy way to control one's choices in an ethical view.

[THERAPTURECOMES]

You must be joking. Paul speaks PLAINLY in Romans 7:14 that he is CARNAL sold under SIN.

This is as plain as it gets and your refusal to deal with truth is telling.

[StringPlunker]

@THERAPTURECOMES

He is explaining what life is like for a Jew. see 7:1. Then see 8:1, NOW.

[THERAPTURECOMES]

@StringPlunker 7:1 & 8:1 ???? Are these verses. You make no sense.

[THERAPTURECOMES]

@StringPlunker Never mind, I figured out who you were referring to as 'HE'. (Paul).

And how does that change the fact that Paul says what he says? Are not all believers in Christ BROTHERS?

You cannot change what Paul's says based upon his audience.

He is also addressing the sinful nature of the FLESH of which the LAW is used to IDENTIFY the SIN and sin is in all FLESH

[StringPlunker]

@THERAPTURECOMES

Under the law you are sold under sin, a slave of sin. 7:14.  Read Romans 6:14ff. In Christ, you are set free from sin and you not a slave of sin. 7:1-6 explains how that happened for a Jew under the Law. Romans 7:1ff. is what it is like to be a Jew under the Law. Paul was a Jew under the Law. Romans 8:1-4. But NOW. Same idea at 3:19-21.

In Christ, one is no longer sold under sin, a slave of sin.

[THERAPTURECOMES]

@StringPlunker Paul is speaking to both Jew and Gentile because in 8:1 he talks about "them that are in Christ" and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile Gal 3:28 & Col 3:11.

He, as a human, as Paul, was commenting on his STATE as a saved sinner and makes clear HIS condition.

I am sorry but you exegesis is just flat out incorrect.

[StringPlunker]

@THERAPTURECOMES

He is addressing the Jewish segment of a Jew/Gentile church.

See 2:17; 3:8-9; 4:1, and 7:1, "those who know the Law."

If you are sold under sin you are a slave of sin and free of righteousness. Christians are not sold under sin. He who commits sin is a slave of sin and of the devil.

[THERAPTURECOMES]

@StringPlunker There is neither Jew or Gentile in the Church of Christ as shown by Gal 3:28 & Col 3:11 ALSO WRITTEN BY PAUL of which, this destroys your argument.

Paul is referring to the human condition in all man in sinful flesh and not just the Jews



[StringPlunker]

@THERAPTURECOMES

7:14 - sold under sin.

Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 7:24

our old man was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Who is your master? Sin?

[THERAPTURECOMES]

@StringPlunker Are you saying that you no longer sin willfully? Is this what you are saying?

So you are saying obey the law for salvation.

It can only be one way or the other. Either you think you can follow the law and not break it at one point or you are saved completely by Grace.

There is no mixing the two

[StringPlunker]

@THERAPTURECOMES

I don't remember saying anything about you or me. I don't remember saying anything about obeying the Law either. The topic was Romans 7 which is about the reality of being a Jew under the Law. See v 1. Under the Law, the Jew was sold under sin (v.14); he was in bondage, a slave of sin. But in Christ this is no longer the case. The Jewish Christian was no longer under the Law & sin was no longer his master. He was no longer a slave of sin but set free from sin.

[THERAPTURECOMES]

@StringPlunker You are not reading in context at all. Are you saying this does not apply to the gentile? If you say yes then you are saying Christ did not die for gentiles?

As I have pointed out more than once, there is neither Jew nor gentile in Christianity so why are you trying to create two groups?

Paul calls himself carnal and sold under sin as a human and not just as a Jew.

You are trying to create a distinction that does not exist. Are you carnal and sold under sin?

[StringPlunker]

@THERAPTURECOMES

Q1. Yes I am. Gentiles were never under the Law. See 2:12-13.

No I wouldn't be saying Christ didn't die for the Gentile. Try again.

Q2. Because Paul is explaining what it is like to be a Jew under the Law & not in Christ.

Q3. As a Jew under the Law, yes he was sold under sin. Now he is free.

Q4. That is because there is a distinction between being under the Law & in Christ. See 6:14.

Q5. No, I was bought by Jesus Christ. I am his servant, not sin's.

[hellbindercda]

amen you go pastor!

[YesweCam1]

hey have u guys heard the bumper stickers that say "Christians aint perfect, just forgiven? im going to make a sticker that says "Christians are perfect we just forget."

[Gamer1990100]

Indeed God helps a serial killer and yet punishes peopel who try, and God "Loves" us LOL

[deathknight228]

2nd Peter 3:15 applies to you. Do not twist the scripture to your own destruction and be led away by the error of the lawless. The law of our God is eternal life. Why would you write a book if you don't even know what the Bible says but only Paul? People should read the Bible not writings and thoughts from men, if we say more or less than what the scriptures say we are only taking away from it. Obey Yahuah our God and learn from Yahushua the Messiah, reject Pauls 13 books.

[bowiehs]

I want to thank you for the video, that was a revelation.

[wp4866]

christians must stay repentant or lose salvation.

[ruelnavs86]

can we say, christians are once a sinners and saved by grace of God through Jesus!

[WSAGOH]

@dutchmcgee101

r our flesh to act (Romans 13:14), and follow the Holy Spirit's lead (Galatians 5:16)... We WERE sinners but now we ARE saints. Not perfect, but will be when we get our glorified-sin free- bodies (1Corinthians 15). Hope this was a blessing. God bless.

[WSAGOH]

@dutchmcgee101

The way God sees us has changed IF we are in Him. He has made us the righteousness in Christ in exchange for Jesus becoming sin for us (1 Corinthians 5:21). We might sin- break the Holy law of God- but we are not "sinners" anymore. We still have this body of flesh that is susceptible to sin. That's why we are constantly admonished to take up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), die that we might live thru Christ (Galatians 2:20), give no chance for our flesh to act (Romans 13:14), and fo

[WSAGOH]

@IAmANaturalBeauty

I think he meant that our identity doesn't remind as a "sinner" because a sinner is someone who is totally separated from and disobedient to God because he broke His holy law thru the natural/sinful nature. We've been given a NEW nature, by faith, that we didn't have before through and IN Christ Jesus- righteous in exchange for wicked, holy in exchange for sinful. God sees us as "saints" because of what He's done in us (grace) while we are "sinners" to the world because they

[johnholby]

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost but now am found, was blind and now I see.

grace opens the door to Gods miracles

[dutchmcgee101]

hmmm ok what about the sinful nature we still have with the old man? i mean technically we are sinners saved by grace.

[mafoota]

Oh my Jesus, the gospel gets more beautiful every day!! A lot of glory on these vids, come on!! Love it.

[IAmANaturalBeauty]

I got a little confused at the end when you said "a sinner is a saint because we have been sanctified by the finished work of Jesus Christ"... isn't that saying the same thing of "a sinner saved by grace?"

[clarkbailey1973]

@IAmANaturalBeauty I think so too...

[wifiprojects]

youre a fucking hypocrite, a sheep with a wolves ass and dick. LIAR!! you fucking liar.

[lukepevensie]

hey steve, the messiah is keeping secrets which is only revealed in the gospel of thomas google it

[wifiprojects]

@lukepevensie This is guy is a liar. I have read the bible and this Steve guy is a frigging liar bible twister.

[Pfsif]

This saying is just a reason to allow heathen$ in the congregation and to allow wickedness to take place in the fellowship. The christian church is fill with "loaded" words and saying designed to deceive and enslave.

[Armedinvirtue]

I'm not a sinner. Who or what says I'm a sinner?

[rubixxcube]

apparently goat herding slave owning sexist ignorant men who wrote a 2000 year old book...

[Armedinvirtue]

Yes, they were. You're right besides the ignorant part. Not that bad compared to Hitler who was inspired by the Orgin of Species written by Charles Darwin. Charles who married his cousin and encouraged others to do the same.

Christianity sure faught some wars and many people died. Some of those wars were unjust but they pale in comparison to the slaughter of Nazi Germany in the use of eugenics.

Might want to inspect your own camp for a bees nest.

[rubixxcube]

actually youre wrong, hitler may have endorsed it, but he was also a vegetarian...is being a vegan wrong too?

hitler was a catholic too, he said many times he was doing the will of the almighty.

darwin never encouraged genocide.

oh trust me no bees near my tent. check yours though, intolerance, lies, qoute mines, hovind, hate crimes, gay bashing, evil loving god, slavery, sexist, and scientific flaws. just to name a few. you can PM me if you want. maybe easier that way.

[Armedinvirtue]

We're not upset about that. What we're upset about is how you think your Gospel of Grace will cause people to see their need for a savior. The Gospel of grace is the goal, but you totally ignore the process of kicking the ball down the field.

Less and less is being preached on the History of the new Testament, important history of who God is and how things came about.

If you can preach, "Come to Jesus and your life will be better", you have never read the entire New Testament.

Q: Is God Just?

[rubixxcube]

if youre asking/saying this to me then no god is not just.

[masceyus]

original and inherited sin was the first lie made by the great liars

[Temprance2]

I just want to point out a statement that you make towards the end of this video "...The truth of the bible is this, a sinner is a saint..." Now I understand what you intended to say but I feel that the wording of you statement in truth works against you overall message. I think your statement should have been phrased more to "...A sinner, once saved by the grace of the Lord is absolved of the sin that once was with them and are now Saints in there new life in Jesus Christ" Just my opinion.

[alstarvlbl]

I like this one... I LIKE THIS ONE!!! i'm so happy I don't think you are spouting hot air. I totally agree, so many people downplay the significance of our new identity in Christ. We are saints, Children of God... Childrend of GOD!! that gets me exciting just sayin...

[SteveMcVey]

The similarity you see is that, like Calvinists, I believe God is sovereign. I don't agree with many other aspects of Calvinism though.

[Haukman66]

Are you a calvinist Steve? If not, your teaching is very close to it.

[aubhar]

I left the church and I denounce jesus and that is because i dont believe jesus does not exist as a son of God. He walked on water, he healed the blind, made the lame walk. he promised us we would do bigger and better things than him in miracles. But i have never seen any dead being raised or some blind dude receive sight. What do you say to that Steve? I been a christain for 25 years. And now I let it all go. You think you can help me?

[SteveMcVey]

That all depends.... do you WANT help?

[bornagainbytheblood]

That's because Jesus is not at most of these churches. You haven't found the right ministry where the power of the Holy Ghost is in operation like in the Early Church. I see Jesus' miracles all the time.

[Armedinvirtue]

I'm replying to a comment you posted about 10 months ago.

I'll help you

Send me a message, lets talk.

[Armedinvirtue]

We're not upset about that. We're upset about how you think your gospel of grace will cause people to see their need of a savior. The Gospel of grace is the goal but you totally ignore the process of kicking the ball down the feild.

Less and less is being preached on the history of the old testament, important history of who God is, why we are here and how things came about.

If you can preach "come to jesus and your life will be better", you have never read the whole new testament.

[peejay2288]

One of the last sentences rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know if you meant a different word, but my belief is that there is a distinct difference between Justification and Sanctification. Justification being that you are saved from eternal damnation when you accept Jesus, and there's nothing else you must do. Sanctification being that you continually grow in your faith and strive to be more like Christ. Saying that Christ "sanctifys" us, is a theological error.

[SteveMcVey]

PJ - 1 Cor 1:30 teaches that Christ is not only our justification, but also our sanctification. Just like we couldn't save ourselves, neither can we "grow ourselves." He does it all. "Faithful is He who has begun a good work in you, who will finish it." "As you have received the Lord Jesus Christ, so walk ye in Him." (by faith). The bottom line is that it isn't a theological error to say Christ sanctifies us. It is one to suggest that we sanctify ourselves. Blessings.

[SteveMcVey]

1 Cor 1:30 Christ IS our sanctification.

[Isaiah6twothrueight]

Umm..but I'm still here on earth IN THE FLESH. We have not received our new bodies YET.

You still sin,I still sin, because we are here still.

Do you believe in sinless perfection? Have you attained that?Do you ignore your own sin and pretend it's not there? Romans 7?

We look forward to our new bodies and our sin is not imputed to us, but...

Paul WAS the chief of sinners,because he blasphemed the Holy Ghost.He said WAS, so..it doesn't even need to be discussed in context to what you have shared.

[SteveMcVey]

Umm...no you are not IN THE FLESH if you are a Christian. Read Romans 8:9. We can still walk after the flesh, but that doesn't define us anymore. Why would you think I ignore my own sin? I've never taught nor believe in sinless perfection. Paul was the chief of sinners in the same way Mohammed Ali (the boxer)is "the champion of the world." He doesn't still box, but nobody has done better than him so he's still "the champion." Paul was saying that nobody had surpassed him when it came to sin.

[Isaiah6twothrueight]

Hmm...I think this is either semantics or something very weird or I just totally don't get it.

I only asked if you believe in sinless perfection to clarify your descriptions.

Paul speaks of a warring in his members...so it was real and happening. I think this discussion could go round and round, so I'll leave it at this (unless you see where I'm not understanding and can explain further?)

[SteveMcVey]

In Rom 7, Paul spoke of the power of indwelling sin which was "in my members."We do still sin, but that isn't what gives us our identity anymore. I could act like a woman, but it wouldn't make me BE a woman, just an ugly man acting foolishly and inconsistently with who I truly am :) Identity is based on our birth, not our behaviour. We have a new nature now, but as long as we live in these physical bodies there will be a conflict between the Spirit (who give us our new identity) and the flesh.

[Isaiah6twothrueight]

That is truly an interesting thought about "acting like a woman, but it doesn't make you one..." I guess my logical conclusion is though...it would be unnatural for you to act like a woman (I hope)...but it's comes VERY EASY (naturally, you might say) to sin and want to sin. I want to understand what you are saying, but it seems like more of a mind game than what is.

I guess how I understand it is that as a Christian(a person who put on the Lord Jesus Christ)~when God looks at us He now sees Him

[SteveMcVey]

Sandra, when you get the book I'm sending you, you'll see that I do not believe it is natural for Christians to sin. Do we sin? Of course, but it goes against our nature to do so. 2 Peter 1:4 says we have become participants of the divine nature. That's why we experience internal conflict when we sin. We aren't Jesus, but we are now in union with Him and have a new nature. I respect your tenacity..so don't let this die without thoroughly studying it. PROVE it wrong if it is.

[Isaiah6twothrueight]

OK...I understand what you are saying here. Semantics ARE important and it just seems as though people run with lots of "churchianity". That is what drew me to this series of yours...I really want people to move past that and I can see that is what you are wanting to do in this series. thanks

[pbrskater26]

So steve, you understand that we have are natural biological instincts. I'm an atheist and a naturalist, I study natural sciences. I fill it's wrong to ignore are biological instincts, but I do know I can control it in situations using my intuition or deductive reasoning skills. I am moral, but I dont belive religion is a bases for morality. Morality like behavour is innate. I do have a video of why i'm an athest, fill free to watch.

[SteveMcVey]

I agree- morality is innate. It began when Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- "the morals tree." But Christians are called and enabled to live at a level above morals. We live by the life of the indwelling Christ. Anybody can live morally, but it is necessary to trust Christ to live righteously. I do think you give yourself and the rest of us too much credit in thinking we can always control wrong desires. We are born with a nature to sin and only Christ can address that

[pbrskater26]

You see, this is why I have a hard time with christianity (besides the creationism aspect) sence creationism is un able to explain how biology works, I dont take the bible literaly. I also dont belive i'm a bad person with out god, I have had to meny people say that to me and it turned me away more. Those evangalists are nuts, they try to use scare tactics and say this is how you should live, hence the distruction of our autonomy! But I do think your a nice guy and you dont judge like some do!

[stopplayingchurch]

This kind of teaching will set you free as a christian believer, we are the Righteousness of God!

[blessedwithoutmeasur]

you couldn't say it better!!! We are righteous because of christ redeemtive work, Amen

[SteveMcVey]

I agree. It's amazing how many people get upset by it though.

[exodusx599]

Some of what McVey says makes sense. It seems to me that the 'lies' he lists actually have the same or very similar meaning as his refutation of them.

This one for example, He says we are saints, sanctified by Christ, which is absolutely true, and that is precisely what is meant when people say 'sinners saved by grace.'

[SteveMcVey]

I disagree. Having served as a pastor for over 20 years, I can assure you that when people say they are "sinners saved by grace," they generally do NOT believe that they are saints. They think they are still sinners. We aren't sinners anymore. We are saints who do still sometimes sin, but that old identity died with Christ.

[allinall777]

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. (Luk 20:38 KJV)

Jesus is the savior of all men. Like it or not. A pray you said did not save you. This would place salvation in your own hands, yet this is the self righteous practice of main stream Christianity. Jesus is the high priest of heaven who atones for the sin of all now. Just like the old Levitical priesthood which was a type of the heavenly pattern. Only devil, demons are damned. TRUTH.

[mattmenking]

sounds like the imparted righteousness that Catholics teach...which, being a Catholic, I agree

[COMMANDMENTSofJESUS]

This is correct if you repent and stop doing the sins that the old creature that you use to be and do the commandments of Jesus as the new creature you are now.

[SteveMcVey]

Ephesians 2:8-9 It isn't our faith AND our works that save us. It's only grace through faith, plus nothing else.

[Armedinvirtue]

Steve~! nothing else? read verse 10 He created us to do good works not just anything we want to do, works that He knew about ahead of time. Context Steve~! What did you do today? Got saved~ Oh what did you do? nothing~ What are you going to do now? nothing~ And those in the grace movement wonder why they have so many backsliders.

[SteveMcVey]

I often teach about those good works - which are an outflow of His life within us. I don't follow your convoluted example. Your implication that grace caues people to do nothing is wrong. It hasn't worked that way for me or anybody I know. His grace motivateds and empowers a person to DO the things He wants to do.You're trying to build a straw man there that doesn't exist. What makes you think those in "the grace movement" wonder that? I don't. Backsliding isn't even mentioned in the NT.

[Armedinvirtue]

@SteveMcVey

I agree that Gods Grace empowers and motivates us to to the Good things he wants us to do, but the grace of God is not what we use to get us to Gods grace.

Say the 10 commandments was a 10 rung ladder.

the rungs are made of boiled spaggetti.

everytime we try to climb the ladder, we break the rung,

Now why would we want to climb the ladder, because the grace of God is at the top. Yes~!

but also because death is creaping up on us at the Bottom.

[blueskunk12]

@Armedinvirtue

Let's continue with your example of the 10 Commandments is a ladder made of boiled spaghetti, and every time we try to climb, we break the first rung.

How can we climb the ladder? We cannot. If we could simply climb the ladder, then God's grace would be of no effect, Salvation would not be a gift of God, and we could simply work our way up to God's grace.

And if we could climb the ladder, we wouldn't need God's grace. That's why we need Jesus, because we can't climb the ladder.

[Armedinvirtue]

Continuing my illustration using the ladder

We need to still preach law to the proud to show people that at the Bottom of the ladder where we live a worldly life, death and destruction are creeping up on us and we need to get up to Gods grace at the top of that ladder

Since we cannot climb rungs of boiled spagetti we need someone who has done it to carry us there.

This is when we turn to Jesus and admit I have borken the commandments and I need you I need Jesus to save me from my destruction

[Armedinvirtue]

Now that we have turned and trusted in Jesus because we see that we are desperate for Him, we'll be brought to that understanding of Gods grace and and guess what... We'll never want to go back down to worldly living again.

I say that the Grace message produces backsliders because I was one of them as well as many friends of mine.

Law needs to be preached so that no one will want to leave Gods Grace.

[natlawful]

@SteveMcVey hi steve................ just watched your imagine video. how beautiful. as i watched it i suddenly felt the Lord putting it on my heart to go to barbados on mission. i don't mind suffering for the gospel bro :) love your ministry steve. i was a heroin addict for ten years before i came to Christ, but it was when I watched the grace walk and did the workbook back in dublin, ireland that I started to understand real freedom. keep goin bro. thanks forever

[bellwetherproperties]

@Armedinvirtue Consider the word for "to do" in the original text is epi. The most common english translation of the word epi is upon. When you substitute "to do" with "upon" the passage dutifully reminds us to depend upon Him, for it is by His good works that we are saved.

[Armedinvirtue]

@bellwetherproperties

I agree that it is by his good works that we are saved but you cannot just conclude that this is the way it is because of one verse in the Bible. There are verses that speak of how we are to respond to God's great works,

John 14 Read the whole chapter

John 15 Whole Chapter

1 John 5 whole chapter

2 john 1 whole chapter

and many more~

What do you do with these verses?

[blueskunk12]

@Armedinvirtue

I think you misunderstand. Steve isn't saying that those in Grace do nothing. In my opinion, he's saying that, according to the Bible, we are no longer sinners, we are now Saints.