Euro Crisis, Neo-Liberalism and Undoing the Welfare State

[LasagnaIsGood]

yeah half a billion,150% of their GDP national debt isn't that big

[LasagnaIsGood]

@LasagnaIsGood sorry, half a trillion, get so confused with these large numbers sometimes : )

[MrWelsh200]

€ made us need to negiate with dictorships of Russia....oh we can not fall deeper.

[elbowbiter1]

Crash fucker, let's see the whole thing crash. Let's see the rich send their slaves to war using nuclear weapons just because they can't enjoy their luxuries any more. Let's watch this planet burn and our loved ones suffer and die because the rich and their slaves can't imagine a society without rich people enjoying most of the fruits of the labours of the poor. There is no reasoning with people that won't let go of an obsolete paradigm. They need to see their children die under it first maybe.

[catgumart]

I don't understand why more working class people & middle class people (whatever that is,I'm quite uncertain) aren't more enthusiastic for democratic socialism--are they misinformed?Are they still harboring left over anxiety from the cold war? Are they sympathetic to the rich & don't think taxation or redistribution is fair? Do they think it will hinder their own ability to get rich?Do they fear or lack confidence in the destitute or people of lower income levels?

[GodlessXVIII]

A wealth tax recognizes the root cause of the current (20th-21st century) problems : superlative private wealth. Fraud, lobbying, tax evasion, war profiteering are all symptoms.

Check up on world statistics. Never has there been so much untaxed, unfettered capital in so few hands. The wealth and power that's been hoarded away from producers, workers and the rest of us defies imagination.

[workwillfreeyou]

Free Market Capitalism = Freedom and Democracy for the Ruling Families to loot everything in the Planet = The Dark Ages. Get back to work you stupid slave.

[kroovyandcal]

@workwillfreeyou Nice going. Three thumbs up. Cognitive dissonance truly works.

[Laoch111]

Why are so few shouting for a wealth tax? Those billionaires and millionaires need a battering! The whole system is sick.

[sirellyn]

@Laoch111 A wealth tax does exactly the opposite of what you want it to do. Harshly prosecuting fraud and suing individuals who have illegal gains does what you want it to do.

Wealth tax = Lets make everyone poorer.

Prosecuting = Lets bring the individuals responsible to justice. Take wealth from those who stole it, and return it to those who worked hard for it. And remove corruptive influence from system.

[kurtilein3]

@Laoch111

warren buffet is shouting for a wealth tax. And recently 160 US millionaires got together and proclaimed that they want higher taxes for everyone that makes more than a million each year (including themselves).

[Laoch111]

@kurtilein3 A wealth tax must be enforced by the so called leaders of countries but those "leaders" seem to be in the pockets of the super rich. The whole system is a joke.

[sheepblitzer]

let's face it, our modern political and economic system concentrates power in the hands of a few. When that happens the rest are screwed, as we are seeing. We need a whole new system. "Native" cultures had it, Spaniards in the 1930's almost had it. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine, as 99% of humans that ever existed lived this way. No bosses, no rulers.

[atosafi1]

The Euro is the very definition of a failed neoliberal project for free-market fundamentalism. It allows Germany and France to dominate and ravage the economies of other countries, making those countries reliant on loans to finance their public services and to be able to buy these cheap goods that have out-competed domestic ones they are given loans by French and German banks.

Free Trade is the definition of failure - it allows the strong to prey on the weak, to the benefit of none.

[sirellyn]

@atosafi1 The euro was never an example of free trade. Nor was it ever a free-market.

Very easy to tell if something is a free market:

a. No one controls the supply of money, not even the government

b. You can fit the number of rules in 12 point font on a single piece of paper. (no theft, no fraud, etc)

Free trade:

a. There's no taxes or tariffs on imported goods (or extremely low)

b. There's zero pages of rules / regulations.

It's been about as "free" as the patriot act has been patriotic.

[atosafi1]

@sirellyn As I said, politics aimed to create a free market are the cause. A "truly free market" will never exist. Corporatism is a direct result of unfettered, unregulated, free-market capitalism. As Karl Popper said "If government does not intervene and try to control markets, other shady organisations, such as trusts and multi-national predators, will". If you allow the markets to run amok, there's nothing stopping them from banding together to monopolize markets and infiltrate government.

[sirellyn]

@atosafi1 Right, and a "truly murder free city" will never exist. But that value of striving towards one makes to make the former point rather unimportant.

[sirellyn]

@atosafi1 I should point out how ludicrous poppers argument is. A controlled market is bad. To use the line of logic, we'll do something bad to prevent others from doing it, is inane. And doesn't prevent the latter from happening anyway.

Parents who say we'll beat you at home so you'll be unattractive enough that the bullies won't at school. OR

Gov saying, we'll steal because if we don't drain you dry others will try.

These are stupid stupid arguments.

[martinaoe2]

SOLUTION: Tag your currency to a tangibly substance

[r0ll0t0masi]

Yes, we pay the Greeks with the destruction of our welfare state to buy our goods. Clever, isn't it?

[lambdog76]

perhaps if the global economy wasnt so intertwined and had a less centralized soveriegnity we wouldnt be having this domino effect. i hear many guests on here seeming to deplore austerity, but i ask who will pay? who will be willing to invest in bonds (repackaged or not) if there is no historical payback?

[Lieu3C4]

These banana benders have got to be kidding right?

[kaxitaksi]

It's not the "german elite", it should be the german parasitical class..

[noprofitmaximierung]

3:52 LoL, well put!

[mweibleii]

I grew up on Welfare in a small white trash trailer-park. It destroyed my mother's life as she just learned to live on less and less and less. I OTOH decided to move to another country and got a Staford loan and went to Uni and got a job making pretty good money working 80+ hours a week (due to all the debt).

One big f*cking catch 22 :(

[sirellyn]

If you can afford a social safety net, it's still a dangerous precedent, but fine. Thats one thing. If you can't afford it to begin with you are losing services you never should have had in the first place.

Just like I don't feel too sorry for someone who can only go to the gym by merit of his credit card payments he never pays down. When he maxes he can't go anymore. Responsibly he'll have to choose what to drop from what he can afford.

[sirellyn]

So.. German is benefiting from the situation. Why? Because they are a creditor, that can lend money. And then they turn around saying, no wait, being a creditor, is bad. (When it's convenient to find an excuse to spend)

If Greece defaults, heck of most of Europe defaults German isn't in a good position at all. Much of the credit they have is loaned out to countries whose debts never get better, only worsen. Their credit evaporates.

[TheRacistsMustDie]

I rather disagree with the agency-like positing of what's happening (i.e. bankers want to break the welfare state), but the welfare state is certainly in a dire situation. Not that I'm a big fan of the welfare state, due to it having to do with the state.

[mahdatonta]

Only at the conclusion of discussion was the real roots of the problem mentioned, almost as if only a tiny maybe. Hell, get tough with the powerful banks, throw asses into jail, demand return of the trillions of stolen funds and only after that, concentrate on prevention. Once again, the cart is in front of the horse.

[Otzmatron]

Euro system was not designed to protect free markets. It's there to serve as a direct competitor to the U.S, to bolster central banks (which now control a single currency which is used by all Europeans). We no longer have a truly free market anywhere in the world, and let's not forget that the Fed bails out banks around the world including Europe.

[OrgonVpH7]

The green bank red mob