Ving Tsun Kung Fu - Don Chi Sau - Sifu Tom Chi

[rakeshjosevincent]

im just thinking out loud here ......... she pushes his left left hand away when he tries to punch her. if this was actual fighting, could he let her push his hand and rotate his left arm clockwise to strike her temple with an open hand, from the outside?? would such a strike be predictable? or wud it be foolish as then he would be open to attack? i would like to know ur opinion...

[heartslord]

This is an exercise to establish control of the centerline, the "entry gate", wrist-to-wrist control, turning on and off of the energy and working with chung chi, or forward energy. If she does the exercise correctly & he tries to come into striking range (they are not so far) then as his hand hunes, or circles and he advances she would punch him or strike his throat etc. We should only strike (at least theoretically) when we have absolute control, a specialty of VT/WC. So this is not an attack.

[rakeshjosevincent]

@heartslord

so absolute control means absolute certainty ?

but in real situation can we ever be certain? i mean dont we just act on instinct?

i really thought circular snap motion attacks are as fast as the straight lead...

im confused now.....

[heartslord]

Hi Rakesh,

This is a training exercise to teach centerline, distancing, contact, turning on and off of the energy, hand and arm sensitization and timing as well as connectiveness. In application we use what we know, our instinct. But just as a gymnast may suddenly do a flip over and obstacle with no planning we too have no need to plan, we use our instincts... based on solid training. VT is a science based on physics and then art. When you own it, it plays itself!

[rakeshjosevincent]

@heartslord

its sad there's no VT training centers around my place. but there's a taichi class nearby.

Is it as good as VT, when it is compared as two separate martial arts, and not by the people that practice it.

They seem to have completely opposing theories, to me.

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent

Simply put Tai Chi Chuan in theory is no match for Ving Tsun. It's amazing stuff, great for health, useful for fighting for those who understand it. I've done the form thousands of times, trained sticking hands extensively.

Tai Chi Chuan has great priciples of interaction, I have no desire to sell it short. However, the VT has gone beyond other arts with it's pure physics of interaction. The zones, contacts, centerline, chi sau is simply the next evolution of kung fu.

[rakeshjosevincent]

@heartslord

guess TCC will do for now, and i'll keep away from WC guys like you till i learn some myself haha....

But i feel like WC is a predominantly defensive art, and you get more reach with turning strikes of TCC

so i guess i'll have to remind myself to keep the exchanges in a range thats comfortable to me.

But you guys are so good at getting close and beating the shit out of people....

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent

Feelings are important but knowledge rules this conversation. WC is both defensive and offensive. A VT player is usually not bound by uncontrolled emotion or vengeful feelings so they don't go out to cause harm. The same goes for most all martial artists. But VT is like the Terminator with a kind heart.

Having trained TCC intensively for years, it's great. NO match for VT. Period. That's all on this topic.

[rakeshjosevincent]

@heartslord

just one final question : if WC is the most scientific system, then why doesnt anyone use it in the MMA ring ?

with respect and gratitude,

Rakesh.

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent

Great Question. MMA fighters train hard and I respect them for what they do. And that is sport. It's intense and not ordinary but it's still sport. VT is not sport. Its' deadly. When we 'spar" it's always controlled (except with complete gear and even then it's controlled) because you are so close and we don't trade punches. Fight begins, fight ends. That's it. That doesn't mean it would be easy to fight a strong MMA fighter. Because you'd have to use deadly force or.....

[heartslord]

Or you'd be smashed to pieces. So we don't mix that sport with VT. Even in tournaments VT doesn't look like anything because it's so close and we stop there rather than to remove a throat, etc. We have a courtesy that allows us to stop there and examine how we go to that point so that the players can learn. As great as MMA fighters are at what they do, they are not VT trained and all the benefits that entails. But that's apples and oranges.

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent

Pt 2, There is definitely an awareness of centerline in TCC as well as using both hands in contact however the circles and turning etc., are in between VT and say Aikkido in that respect. This means it is accurate in attack and defense however it disables itself with the turning, etc., and also requires a receipt of energy for most of it's mechanisms to work whereas in VT it's simply the Terminator entering and dealing with all energies on a direct path. The bigness becomes.

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent

Small, the tiniest movement becomes a huge breach and opening. That all sounds intangible except to a well trained VT player who will understand it in a flash. That said, TCC is a fantastic art, healthy, functional and one should not miss out on it's excellence. When the time comes perhaps you can add VT/WC. Til then, it's the same with TCC. Even bad TCC is good TCC. I learned from Master Bob Cook who is a top student of James Wing Woo, Kuo Lin Ying and T.Y. Pang. Yow!

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent 

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent

Please see my video called "how to attack" to see the stages of entry from no contact, to contact (with feet) followed by hands into chi sau range and finally when you have earned the right to enter striking range and carry out the strike. All are invited to visit here for short periods of time and we'll train you in these methods (the fantastic science/physics of Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung Fu) & you will soon be able to open a school and go on to master this amazing art.

[rakeshjosevincent]

@heartslord

just saw dat video you mentioned....

So what you do is make urself "comfy" no matter from what range the attack pattern begins

But that comfy distance is too near for my level and knowledge

I just basically try to "hit and run" instead of closing in on the gap like you are doing bcoz i know i may not be able to handle it.

so.......any advice for a novice like me ?

[heartslord]

Train the physics and you will Own each progressive contact range meaning, no contact, initial contact, chi sau range, finally, striking range. And you should be comfortable enough to sing, dance and joke, just like I do, during fairly intense combat scenarios. And.. with this physics, each contact pattern that emerges melts into the next with no thought needed. The kung fu essentially plays itself.

Have several students chip in to cover your airfare, come visit & learn. Bol Sundara Bhayi!

[rakeshjosevincent]

@heartslord

so kungfu's like guitar then?

you practice till playing becomes natural. thats interesting.

never thought of it that way....

i'll have to make my own airfare...will drop by if and when i'll have enough....

Did not understand the last part except that its maybe hindi? anyway thanks.....

[heartslord]

@rakeshjosevincent

Yes, means "so beautiful, brother!".

Learning this kung fu and teaching others is one of lifes great brushstrokes.

When the movie of life streams by, this is the part where you say "holy shit, THAT was GREAT!"

[Meganutlol]

haha :D not a Sieg Heil... first i thought it was some chinese but then I listened closely xD

[wingchun2k10]

As always Sifu Tom you have the most imformative videos on Wing Chun training. Thanks a bunch.

[007harvey]

Anyway I had a thought , not to dwell on it, but think of it this way, from Taan sau you have to rotate your hand for a palm strike agree? Well if you have to rotate the hand anyway, why not keep the thumb where it is next to the tann maintaning contact, keep the elbow and the thumb where they are and rotate the hand outward so the side of the hand pushes against the taaning arm during the rotation to the the palm position ,which move the arm, thus creating the space for the strike. Try it.

[heartslord]

I understand the confusion now. Don Chi Sau exercise does not address this. You have the right idea of opening the space however there is no "lateral" opening of the space. In chi sau proper you can (among other things) make your tan move vertical if the opponent allows (also requires a collapsing of the opponents bong). Then you can launch the strike as the fuk cant properly jut a vertical tan.

[heartslord]

I say don chi sau isn't the exercise for this as it is more designed for the practice of jutting the strike. That is because you typically don't move in to striking range inside of the entry zone that the fuk is meant to protect.

[heartslord]

Most people don't have wrist-to-wrist so they have inadventently abandoned that defense anyway. In a moving exercise you can enter that zone and properly open it for striking (ex of a vertical tan that the fuk can't protect against). I will make a vid sometime soon. I appreciate your thoughtful commentary.

[007harvey]

opening the space is crucial to single chi sau, it is what most first generation Ip man students teach. It works on wing chun`s basic principle the 3 line theory. what is the point of striking if there is no space. From the Taan the thumb stays where is is and the hand rotates out,(3 line theory) that opens up the gap for a more effective strike. Striking the shoulder is actually a further distance than the lower face were you would strike, so is harder to hit for training.

[heartslord]

Okay I've looked at both videos on your behalf.

I like his contact with the fuk. Very nice.

The punch of course doesnt control the bong or entry to the centerline as the wrist is lost.

As to hitting the shoulder it makes no sense as this is an exercise and it is NOT striking range.

[heartslord]

We aim for the forehead to reach the most difficult strike if one was close enough which one is NOT in the exercise.

Creating the space as shown in the video does not work as the opening that he has made for the strike is more of a tai chi move.

[heartslord]

VT doesn't tolerate leaving contact of an unchecked arm and that arm could be used for a roundhouse at that point as well as the opponent dropping his elbow during the strike to neutralize the inside attack.

Sigh.

I appreciate your thoughts and hope you enjoyed this explanation of concern.

[gudster]

Why is she not punching from the jut position into the upper space, and thus instigating his bong? She only seems to be punching/testing once her wrist has been placed slowly onto his bong.

Whats the point of that? How does this train her to advance into undefended space, and train him to recover that space?

[heartslord]

Great question!

Once the jut is done she has accomplished the mission of crushing his advance and there would be no need for her to raise the punch to the level where a bong could be formed. Instead she might simply step in and punch in the abdomen while continuing to control his defeated hand which would now presumably become a low bong sau with a slight body turn to save his ass. Those moves though are ones in which she would advance and are usually done also as with each partner using both

[heartslord]

(2nd part) hands. Apparently it was convenient to combine the bong punch with the jut exercise however they are not necessary real-world related. As to the second part, the bong test it helps the bong partner to realize that a real connection is needed and tested without overextending, using chung chi - forward energy (most people send the bong off in different directions). It allows her to understand how not to overshoot the bong when it stops her and to stay wrist-to-wrist. One could certainly

[heartslord]

(part 3)

do the jut then step in a punch however that again would best be done as part of chi sau exploration. great question. thank you.

[heartslord]

Great point. This is showing how to assemble the exercise. In reality this is a composite exercise. One would not punch and "instigate the bong" as one has already jut and crushed the defense so a low punch that maintains contact and keeps the opponents arm suppressed is what would be used rather than to release the neutralized arm/hand and start a new attack. The attack began with the jut and finishes with the punch

[preacher48]

thanks, sifu.  greetings to all.

[heartslord]

aw shucks. and thanks for your vid heads-ups.

tc

[blacksilkblacksilk]

At long last again a video coming from you.

Five stars. Thank you for posting.

Have anice day

silk

;-))