Fareed Zakaria: Are the Chinese the Better Capitalists?

[thegeffc]

love the video really good

[alexasmithy]

really informative and interesting

[Cougman1978]

Good luck, the answer.

[lied2bygov]

thank you china keep up the good work. because the globalist agenda will eat you up like what they are doing to the other nations. just watch out new world order satan s are full of tricks

[Relbl]

Nothing that this guy said is wrong, except that he is only considering about 40% of China in his discussion - those that live in SARs and have some minor freedoms in corrupt mercantilism. The other 60% of China is an utter fukn disaster completely populated by peasants that have nothing and barely survive on rations. Add to that that the world market is ALREADY over-saturated with Chinese goods and you realize that those 840m will never be elevated under this Chinese economic model. Some plan

[xavierorange]

a really smart man

[InternalCompass]

I'm a proud American in the sense of our foundational principles, but I also believe that actions speak louder than words - so why is it that the Chinese are now more American in Action than the Americans?

No one can deny that the Americans still dominate in the realm of empty words or irrational promises, while the 'Evil', 'Communist' Chinese are using the Maoist's, devil's tools of logic, mathematics, reason and reality to take up the slack where the "all talk no action" Americans left off.

[Pro902]

@InternalCompass gahh  tooo.. much.. sense...

[northfolk24]

Spiked it...perhaps that comment was not needed

[schmoukiz]

Boy, the fall of Chinese oligarchic system is gonna be way more fun than the collapse of the Soviet Union!

[lakid87]

@schmoukiz so long as you realize the US is virtually run by oligarchies as well, but from the corporate side

[schmoukiz]

@lakid87 Maybe, but if I'll ever emigrate, I'd go for the capitalist oligarchy than the communist one.

1 Free movement to any other country, access to any imaginable information on earth, decent standards of living, a judicial system that really works, freedom of faith...

2 How's that compared to working camps, political prisons, limited information, single party, brainwashing, extreme poverty for the many or the nightmare slave system at Foxconn where most ambitious youngsters get to work?

[KenMacMillan]

Command & control economies always fail. China's is just new, it will fail in time just like all the others.

[ritchloui]

I reckon the love affair with the car is at the heart of the USA’s problem. The car is the single greatest influence on city and suburban planning. For many it is simply not possible to live without one, and I’m afraid, it is open season on car owners. The other downsides to cars; they are inherently antisocial, and have killed more people than all the wars and genocides put together. How could we have designed our habitation so that it is unsafe for children at all times?

[Tougemaster06]

Considering Marxist do not have a christian like view of economics like most free marketers, I am not surprised...

[KenMacMillan]

What most people don't recognize about debt is that it is a commodity. In fact it's the most heavily advertised commodity on the market. You don't have to own it. If people stopped borrowing money & paid off their debts the market would adjust accordingly.

[ritchloui]

@KenMacMillan Agreed. Debt and cars are pretty much the whole of the advertising business. Literally, every other advert. They are ideal products with a very high cost of ownership that people simply don't calculate until they're up to their necks and the money just keeps disappearing into a black hole.

[utuebmakeustupid]

There is a massive housing bubble in China right now.

[Violent2aShadow]

Looks like China actually practices Keynesian economics. Who would have thought?

[mykenmoon]

this is a no brainer. the chinese, of course, will prosper. they started from 0. while others were fat and expensive. they didn't spend all the money for unproductive things as other countries did. and, they are only just beginning to pollute their country. there'll come a time they become fat and cumbersome, but the time isn't now. not yet anyway.

[hurchel]

end, I am afraid I was raised in the cold war era, we do not befriend communist countries, let alone become in debt to them. The party owns the chinese, through intimidation, any american interests there are sadistic control freaks with payola and gifts. I read Marx before you were born, I have no need to revisit it. I see the effects of the immigration investor programs here in the US, chinese don't pay their bills and they cheat each other and others

[Redfingers]

@hurchel

The Chinese are not Marxists. The Chinese are not even Communists. That is Chinese Communist Party propaganda. They WANT you to think they are Communist, they want their society to think they are communist. It gives them power.

You were raised in the Cold War era, no wonder you can't get over the propaganda bullshit you were fed in that era. Where's the nuclear bloodbath? Did it happen? How about domino theory? How'd that go over, buddy?

How'd the Vietnam War go?

[VictoriaofSommerset]

It has a lot to do with the fact that the 1% elite are holding 40% of the peoples money and they are not taxed, the IRS acts as a strong arm tax collector to the poor and middle class to collect the money to pay them interest on the money the government borrows from them to fund all the wars, they also pay The Peoples Republic of China 60% of all taxes collected. We the people need to revolt and force those 1% Elite to pay their fair share of taxes "90%" to our nation. No more budget cuts, etc.

[eirefrance]

I love that he says WHY the budget is exploding. The fact is that Americans don't want to know the truth about budget cutting; they want to gather in Tea Parties and pretend its poor people and black people who exploded the budget. And they want to pretend the Annoying Orange, i.e. Boehner, will save the day.

[daderone]

what a dumb question, i won't even watch this video.

[SwindleUK]

@daderone just watch it, its not stupid.

[LSRochon]

Fareed Zakaria is like a corporate News Uncle tom for the Middle east.

[galtzur21]

as if money would make the different.

[playlifesgame]

China brings in 1/3 of our GDP and have they 4 times our population . This is still by far the better place to be. However, their ability to have a surplus despite this difference also emphasizes just how badly we overspend.

[4ta2r]

Fareed FTW

[brockcrazy]

Interesting point made

[elsquibbs]

In other words, runaway gov't spending and loose central bank/GSE policy lead to this mess. Well no kidding.

[Mars2O84]

Narrowly focusing on economics while ignoring society at large is simply insane. This mentality of "If it's good for the market, it must be good" drives the world, but it's madness.

Part of China's "success" with Capitalism is that it's a totalitarian police state with no workers' rights. That'll drive up profits!

[Graffight]

why is the government in control of interest rates at all? China is not doing well....they're jsut better off than we are, plus they have made a huge investment in the USA by purchasing our debt...of course they are better off than we are.

[ugfabian]

MORE OF THIS

[hurchel]

Gee Fora, they aren't capitalists they are communists. They are filthy supressors of human spirit. The capitalists that are american interests there are committing treason and never had ethics

[endauthority]

@hurchel the chinese may have a communist party, but they were NEVER communists.

[hurchel]

@endauthority they have been since 1949,

[endauthority]

@hurchel No they havent been. Just because they have a communist party does not mean they are actually communist.

It would be like me starting the communist party and operating under capitalist theories.

the term communist is NOT what makes something communist. Read Marx, and youll know what communism actually is.

[endauthority]

Ron Paul is an idiot

[99minerkc]

@endauthority And you're a dolt, so what

[endauthority]

@99minerkc No im not, i know enough about economics to know that the austrian model is flawed by its design. he isnt smart enough to know that, hes gone on record saying he denies evolution, and he wouldnt mind if schools didnt teach it. that has a massive negative effect on our entire society.

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@endauthority many austrian economics model experts and libertarians are devout atheists

[endauthority]

@SeeProfileForDetails cool story bro? Who cares one way or the other?

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@endauthority you mentioned something about evolution... which is a straw man argument. Because so and so doesn't believe in evolution, libertarinism must be wrong.. that's a false assertion.

[endauthority]

@SeeProfileForDetails its not a strawman argument, because I was talking about what ron paul believes and the effects it would have on education standards.

If it were a strawman it would be me attacking him based on a belief he doesnt hold. Learn your fallacies.

[99minerkc]

@endauthority Your punctuation is horrid and you sear a doctor? ROFL!!!!

[endauthority]

@99minerkc I dont know if I made the "seer" typo. But either way, pointing out grammatical errors != argument with substance

[99minerkc]

@endauthority Yeah, whatever you say chief.

[endauthority]

@99minerkc obviously, you arent logical.

[99minerkc]

@endauthority Also, what level of education do you have? What career?

[endauthority]

@99minerkc Id love to answer that, as i personally believe its something to toot my own horn, but its irrelevant, its a red herring.

[katey1dog]

It would be so much easier if the Federal Reserve and Fractional Reserve Banking were ABOLISHED.

[endauthority]

@katey1dog yes, and we can all live in a utopia where children end up working to support their parents who dont make much more money than they do.

Without fractional reserve banks, capitalism has very little room to grow

[rayyf69]

@endauthority These growths are neoplasms which, if not purged become malignant.

[migkillertwo]

@endauthority

You do realize that the 65+ demographic is the richest demographic in America right? It's not as if everyone over 65 is living on a fixed income.

Fareed is definitely on to something. Both of the crises were caused by an instant-gratification seeking expansion of consumer credit by the government. China just manages its binges a little better than chairman Greenspan does.

[endauthority]

@migkillertwo Yes I do realize that, thanks to fractional reserve banking. You should read what ive stated before commenting.

[migkillertwo]

@endauthority

Right, you stated that Capitalists are utopians whose recommendations will end up forcing us to take care of our parents.

[endauthority]

@migkillertwo thats a pretty overly simplified analysis of what ive said.

Im pointing out that capitalism has a history of creating social situations where people(including children) work for very little pay and become impoverished.

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@endauthority Work for very little pay and become impoverished? it's voluntary.. you don't have to work for little pay, you can work elsewhere. Whereas in communism, it's forced on you to do so and so projects for the State, because the State thinks that so and so products will help the state with their central plan... The difference is that capitalism is better than communism because capitalism is voluntary, and socialism and communism is more forced.

[endauthority]

@SeeProfileForDetails Its not voluntary. Only the most naive of us actually believe capitalism is voluntary for anyone other than the rich.

A man who lives paycheck to paycheck requires employment, he cannot choose to live without a paycheck, thus he has to work for someone. Capitalism is not voluntary.

The concentration of wealth leads to power, until unions formed wages did not rise much at all in america.

Socialism and communism (never been tried) are the only free economic systems

[migkillertwo]

@endauthority

No doubt that in industrializing countries children often have to work. but did capitalism "create" those conditions? Certainly not. Before industry arrived to Britain and America, children still had to work back-breaking jobs on the farm and plantation. Child labor was declining before trade unions pushed through child labor laws. If we repealed child labor laws today, how many parents would really send their children to work?

[endauthority]

@migkillertwo Of course capitalism created those conditions. The logical conclusion of unregulated capitalism is that more people work for less pay. The rich have the power, the poor do not, the poor have very little options and the rich determine their wages.

[migkillertwo]

oh, and "become impoverished", that just made me laugh.

[endauthority]

@migkillertwo Thats fine if it makes you laugh, but you clearly have no concept of reality if you think unregulated capitalism does anything but make the majority of people poorer, even if they have jobs.

[katey1dog]

@endauthority

??? What Capitalism? 

[endauthority]

@katey1dog do you know what capitalism is?

[katey1dog]

@endauthority yes, and we can all live in a utopia where children end up working to support their parents who dont make much more money than they do.

That's happening now. That's not due to capitalist principles, that's due to government sanctioned progressivism (socialism.)

[endauthority]

@katey1dog Yes it is due to capitalist principles, considering the world is controlled by capitalists, they have the most influence. They not only buy our politicans but others as well.

Socialism is when the employees own the workplace and everyone operates on equal power relations. Socialism is the fullest expression of democracy. Glenn Beck lied to you and told you its big government, when in fact most forms of socialism seek to destroy government because it treats people unfairly

[katey1dog]

@endauthority Yes it is due to capitalist principles

???

Pardon me? It is the FEDERAL RESERVE overprinting currency, raising interest rates, and dismissing the gold and silver STANDARD! Those are not principles which CAPITALISM embues!

Socialism is when the employees own the workplace and everyone operates on equal power relations.

Employees owning the workplace and profiting from that workplace is one matter, that isn't Socialisim, that's a COOPERATIVE.

[endauthority]

@katey1dog lasseiz faire, decentralized capitalism is not the only form of capitalism.

any system where you can have capital is capitalism. This encompasses many, many different forms of capitalism.

Yes that is socialism, thats what it has always been. Some businesses do operate as cooperatives, whats your point? Socialism is an economic system, not a business model. Look up socialism and capitalism... you have a lot of reading to do on both subjects

[katey1dog]

@endauthority lasseiz faire, decentralized capitalism is not the only form of capitalism.

No system is without restriction. The FREE MARKET has many. Nothing overspent with credit. That's a basic law. It's a system that we had, which worked until the Central Bank. Industry THRIVES and so do pockets of individuals wishing to earn a piece.

Can't have that with communism. No forward individual advancement. No wealth creation. No property rights. AND NO COLLECTIVE BARGAINING.

[endauthority]

@katey1dog youre basically just rambling incoherently at this point. you dont know any laws of economics so please dont talk out of your ass, and no the pre new deal era did not work for most americans. you would more than likely be living in a shack making next to nothing

who brought up communism? communism is when all governments collapse and people share everything (according to marx)

[ritchloui]

The Marxist promise of utopia was a vacant as the religious promises of eternal life. What’s interesting about Marx is that he never considered ‘debt’ to be a driving force of capitalism. Government has to be powerful enough to curb business excess and to steer it. We’re still too enamoured by dreams of laissez faire individualism and have ended up with gigantic, unfettered dinosaur corporations and millions deep in unsecured personal debt

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@ritchloui well individualism isn't the same as corporatism.. corporatism is Nazi Germany and somewhat USA. As for personal debt - it's most often the person's problem. Buying SUV's and large homes and crying that you are in debt.. I don't feel sorry for any one crying about debt. Simply buy a smaller house, an older car, and make it through life without comparing your material goods to your stupid friends. Not meaning this message toward you specifically, but all American Slobs (and Cdn's)

[KenMacMillan]

@ritchloui Debt isn't a driving force behind capitalism. If only we had laissez faire individualism, the economy would still be strong. We haven't had a truly free market economy for almost 100 years.

[Achilles9924]

@KenMacMillan I'm pretty positive tariffs are not a part of laissez faire and US has had tariffs for almost 200 years now. And also the question of whether to consider trusts that have had the advantage of controlling the supply/prices and not get busted with anti-trust laws raises a big doubt whether US was ever a free market economy. Laissez faire is the biggest lie in the history of the United States.

[KenMacMillan]

@Achilles9924 You're right. A true laissez faire economy has never existed but we've been close. The more free the economy the more free the people.

[lakid87]

@KenMacMillan wouldn't you say the Wild West was laissez faire? the most adaptable to change prosper and continue to grow eventually evolving into a the ruling class....fast forward a century or two, Will. i. am is the #1 trending topic on Yahoo ...7/1/11

[KenMacMillan]

@lakid87 The economy of the old west was about as close to laissez faire as it's ever been but it was still managed indirectly from Washington through tariffs & the rail road was financed by government.

[Tougemaster06]

@ritchloui Marx never promised Utopia. I have never come across that claim in my reading of Capital I,II, and III

[ritchloui]

@Tougemaster06 I said Marxist. As I understand it Marx himself was not a Marxist.

[pulsatingremedy]

@ritchloui

"I said Marxist. As I understand it Marx himself was not a Marxist"

Made me chuckle. Thumbs up for you.

[Tougemaster06]

@ritchloui Fixed

Replace Marxist with Marxist-Leninist

[massemorder1]

Yes mister - i hope u can live long - and better health -

i just want other muslims death

-- all off em

u not a layer off the 3-5 year olds that wass to be phedophiles doll - saying they was 6-10 years

so i respect - but not any christian killers taking over egypt farrad - so all off my sons Die - Me muhammed.

over

as i am focused to murder most zombies or daysleepers in in euroasia - and

i dont like that muslims take over serbia -

better than they get egypt - better u live

[marketanarchist2011]

@ritchloui debt is not a driving force in capitalism. the force is competition and human creativity

[ritchloui]

@marketanarchist2011 Yes, I tend to agree. Though I would go further, it is the beneficial and self-adjusting effects of competition, creativity and co-operation. I am, nevertheless, concerned about the huge corporate monopolies. Though I am beginning to think that even they cannot compare to the catastrophe of the over-blown nanny-state. Rather than a safety net it resembles more a closed hatch that can't be opened from below.

[marketanarchist2011]

@ritchloui Yes, in time of competition, people who resolve problems for the society will get profit, and so the human creativity will be boosted(because we all want money). But as soon as a firm uses the state to regulate the market to lower competition and to instal a monopoly or to prevent a cartel form colapsing, you no longer have capitalism, you have a central planned economy which is more like fascism.

[Sivels]

@ritchloui corporations are state entities, they're legal fictions that allow business owners to pull vast amounts of money out of the corporation.

All monopolies through history, more than 99% were government created/enforced... The only natural monopoly is some diamond company in Africa.

[Sivels]

@ritchloui unfettered capitalism would be zero taxation, not 50% taxation statism.

[katey1dog]

@endauthority

I've used facts to support my claim. Where are yours?

you dont know any laws of economics so please dont talk out of your ass

Obviously, you don't. You believe that Socialism can solve the ills of the poor and destitute. Given the past 90 years of government funded progressivism (socialism), there has been one major depression, dozens of recessions, the elimination of the Gold Standard, and currency manipulation in the form of printing and devaluation.

[endauthority]

@katey1dog you havent mentioned a single fact. we are capitalist right now.

you have never done academic research in regards to economics, and visiting ron paul or alex jones's site doesnt count

there has yet to be a socialist society on any large scale. i told you what socialism is, you can look it up, you desperately need to.

wikipedia org/wiki/Socialism

first paragraph... no im not saying wiki is academic either, but theyre at least unbiased

[katey1dog]

@endauthority you havent mentioned a single fact. we are capitalist right now.

Certainly I have. We are not on a Gold Standard. Currently our money is based on debt and not a solid currency wich can be used as money and as an industrial metal.

there has yet to be a socialist society on any large scale. EUROPE. Great Britain chose socialism after the WWII which wrecked the nation causing massive inflation and currency devaluaition.

[katey1dog]

@endauthority there has yet to be a socialist society on any large scale.

GREECE. That nation is more or less totally dedicated to socialism.  What happened? Total chaos. Government kept printing money because no industry existed to create products that are in demand. Production in a free market creates its own currency. And when gold backs up paper currency, in case of recession or depression.

[endauthority]

@katey1dog if greece is socialist (they arent) then you logically must admit the rest of europe is socialist, and europe didnt collapse, they have a higher standard of living than americans do.

Norwegians have the biggest welfare state (thats what you THINK socialism is, but you arent right) of all of them, and look where they rank in the human development index.... ill give you a hint its #1

[katey1dog]

@endauthority if greece is socialist (they arent) then you logically must admit the rest of europe is socialist,

Which it is. Especially when you look at the French, the Greeks, Italians, Irish, the Portuguese. Just to name a few. ALL have spent billions in worthless currency to support their failing markets and to pay for public workers. The public sector also represents a greater source of wealth since. Plus there is NO real private growth to tax. Which means no viable currency. 

[endauthority]

@katey1dog they all have higher standards of living than the average american, seems like their system works better, eh?

Not to mention, their economy is doing better.

[katey1dog]

@endauthority

Did your IQ drop sharply while I was away?

GREECE, IRELAND, ITALY, AND PORTUGAL ARE BANKRUPT! All done through ever nationalizing business, deflating currency, and over-printing.

You might remember the riots in Greece and Italy. The Governments couldn't pay their laborers! And whatever currency they paid them in was WORTHLESS!

[endauthority]

@katey1dog they have higher standards of living than the average US citizen. You are avoiding the points im making because you realize you are cornered.

You also ignore Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark.

These countries are far more welfarist (No socialist country exists yet, sorry, but you your "gut" feeling isnt a dictionary) than greece or any other in europe, and they have the best standards of living and some of the best economies.

[katey1dog]

@endauthority

Funny how you mention Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. They have their own CURRENCY which enables them to act INDEPENDENTLY of the European Central Bank! Finland, however is on the Euro. But, Finland is highly independent. Finland has a highly industrialized mixed economy with a per capita output equal to that of other European economies such as France, Germany, Belgium or the UK. WIKI.

Now, explain how Greece, Ireland, and Portugal are bankrupt.

[endauthority]

@katey1dog They have their own currency, but youre avoiding the issue. You think all of those countries are socialist, and they all have centralized banking, even if not all of them use the Euro. Thats the point.

They are bankrupt because they overstretched. Really not difficult to understand.

[katey1dog]

@endauthority They have their own currency

Pity how I discovered that before you.

You think all of those countries are socialist,

Well, not those that see the writing on the wall and maintained their individual liberty and capitalistic entreprenuerialism like Sweden, Norway, and Denmark.

The EU is a socialist consortium. A consortium with a crumbling currency based on debt and overprinting and raising interest rates.

[katey1dog]

@endauthority They are bankrupt because they overstretched.

EXACTLY!!! That's what happens with socialism! It expands and consumes!  Until every private money generating resource is absorbed and EVERYBODY wants more money.

Even France is not immune.

[endauthority]

@katey1dog You have got to be kidding me. Just forget Scandinavia was mentioned at all, just forget that the overwhelming majority of europe is welfarist as well and are fine, while doing better than the usa.

Also, you still dont know what socialism is. There are no socialist countries, and no i wont let up, and yes it is important that you accept reality for what it actually is

[eirefrance]

@katey1dog What does the Federal Reserve have to do with capitalism? Capitalism is about profiting off of your property. Who prints the money has nothing to do with it. Only a really blind ideology would invent a connection between the two.

[katey1dog]

@eirefrance What does the Federal Reserve have to do with capitalism?

Nothing. They have everything to do with banks and currency manipulation. They print money which drastically causes dollar decreciation causing deflation. That forces prices of commidities to rise.  Food, precious metals, and housing.

It works great for the LARGEST banks, in case one or many ever needs a bailout.

[whoo689]

Yeah, if you want an even more intense oligarchic laissez-faire style of capitalism...

[PEDLIFE]

Ron Paul 2012

No central planing.

Pure free marker that we have never had

[thereallurker]

@PEDLIFE Actually, we had that too. You need to study history.

[endauthority]

@PEDLIFE we have had free markets, pre-new deal america is lasseiz faire. Most of the third world is lasseiz faire, corporations are not regulated much at all

[migkillertwo]

@endauthority

Actually, most 3rd world nations rank extremely low on the economic freedom index. Those countries have 3rd world status precisely because of their autocratic/incompetent/corrupt states.

[endauthority]

@migkillertwo They may rank low, but we shouldnt assume that index is automatically objective by any means.

The bottom line is, the corporations are unregulated. That is lasseiz faire.

[migkillertwo]

@endauthority

"They may rank low, but we shouldnt assume that index is automatically objective by any means."

Why the fuck not? They state how they measure economic freedom unambiguously. Facts are facts, in almost every 3rd world country, capital flows are restricted, taxation is high, tarrifs are high, import competition is low, and regulation is burdensome. It is extremely hard to start a business in most 3rd world nations. Some require overt bribes to govt. officials to start a business.

[endauthority]

@migkillertwo Because in order to be taken objectively, the one making the claim must prove their objectivity. Basic aspect of logic.

It doesnt change the fact that multinationals goto the countries where they get taxed the least, and have the least regulations (on them anyway)

I know you want a simple world where simple answers exist, for example simply looking up a site that claims to rank economies objectively. It would be simple if it were simply true. But thats not reality.

[migkillertwo]

"Because in order to be taken objectively, the one making the claim must prove their objectivity. Basic aspect of logic."

Basic principle of pseudo-skepticism more like. You made the claim that their bias has somehow clouded their judgement, or that, for some reason, they can't give a clear assessment of economic freedom in the developing world. You bear the burden of proof.

"where they get taxed the least"

yeah, places like China, Switzerland, Hong Kong, and Ireland. what's your point?

[endauthority]

@migkillertwo Actually I didnt say their bias has anything. I didnt even mention bias. You are not a skeptic, clearly. You probably believe whatever your gut tells you.

The burden of proof is on them. Theres no reason to assume what they say is accurate until they prove it. Its not like I can just say shit and demand that YOU disprove it. Thats illogical. Logical laws are not determined on who you like more, even if you would prefer it that way.

[JulianThePhilosopher]

@migkillertwo U can be economically free but politically authocratic like singapore where i'm from.

[KenMacMillan]

@endauthority Actually we've never had a truly free economy. The power to regulate the economy is written right into the constitution & they've been doing it since day one.

[Mars2O84]

@PEDLIFE

Capitalism IS central planning. It's based on centralized, 'elite' minority ownership, with power being exercised through a coercive hierarchical bureaucracy. The word "free" doesn't fit anywhere in that equation.

In the case of multi-national corporations power is projected halfway around the world, from corporate headquarters in New York to sweatshops in Malaysia, You are right to be wary of central planning, but be consistent- apply your criticisms to economics as well as politics.

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@Mars2O84 capitalism is market planning and private planning. If you think that people will like Coca Cola as a drink, you plan to sell it to people and see if it works. If you were right, you make good sales and become successful. If you think cigarettes are going to be a good product you try it and see if the market accepts it. It is a double edged sword because capitalism is just a tool - it can be used for good or evil. People are evil, not capitalism.

[Mars2O84]

@SeeProfileForDetails

I'd call it market manipulation and private ownership. Your example is overly simplified.

Corporations don't just sell products to people out of a desire to enrich their lives, they market products to consumers for profit. All major corporations use refined methods of propaganda to create desire for products and cover-up illegal or reprehensible behavior. Advertising and Public Relations are manipulation.

Collusion of corporate and state power is also market manipulation

[Mars2O84]

Private ownership is inherently exploitative. A corporation isn't a one man operation, it takes many people for a large business to operate. When a small group or single individual is granted authority to make decisions which affect the majority, those individuals are robbed of the ability to make decisions which affect them.

Evil begets evil. How can people. if truly evil, ever hope to form an economic system without that being evil as well?

People are not evil, but Capitalism is dehumanizing.

[endauthority]

@Mars2O84 good post

[SeeProfileForDetails]

@Mars2O84 I've never been a cigarrette or coca cola purchaser myself, yet millions of other people buy into it because that's what they want to buy... not my choice... they vote with their dollars. They can buy other stuff like milk, crackers, or whatever. Do you really think that crackers are some kind of conspiracy and that every business selling crackers or rice cakes is some kind of evil profit organization? come on, capitalism is a tool. How about stores that sell seeds and nuts?

[Mars2O84]

@SeeProfileForDetails

The product itself is irrelevant. My response was in broad terms because the important thing to analyze is the method of economic organization employed to create that product (whatever it may be). See the other comment I left.

Yes, every modern Capitalist corporation is an "evil profit organization," and yes, as an economic model it could be considered a conspiracy - a conspiracy of property owners against workers; On the societal level this amounts to class warfare.

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@Mars2O84 LMFAO so someone that grows organic apples to feed his city and runs a company is an evil business... YOU are a fucking idiot.

[Mars2O84]

@SPFD

Ad hominem. Maybe you can try addressing my points?

Not Communist, I'm Libertarian Socialist. Chomsky is pure logic.

You still want to argue products instead of the real issue - method of production. Might work with a liberal, but not me.

You're intentionally obfuscating the point. If one individual grows apples to feed his community at no profit, they'd be role model. It's another story if he owns tracts of land and hires others to produce profit for him, while paying them a pittance.

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@Mars2O84 I did address your points in another message, I had two replies to you. A libertarian cannot be a socialist. Socialism requires government intervention to make things equal. By nature, women are not equal to men, and a blind person is not equal to a person that can see. The blind person given handouts by the government would not work in a libertarian society. Liberty requires freedom - using gov't force to give blind people more money on social assistance programs is not liberty.

[Mars2O84]

@SPFD

Please look up the term and try to understand it before saying things like "A libertarian cannot be a socialist." The meaning of both terms has been twisted by propaganda. There's State Socialism (top-down organization) and Libertarian Socialism (bottom-up). Google 'Political Compass' for visual.

It's an incredible insult to say that disabled people are useless to society. You're concerned about unfair situations, people taking more than they deserve? That's what Capitalism is all about!

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@Mars2O84 Disabled people don't have as much skill and cannot get jobs when high minimum wage exists, you really need to look up Chomsky who has been exposed as a closet capitalist. Type it in google, stop buying his capitalist books that make him rich. He puts his book money into capitalist stocks like michael moore.. exposed as a hypocrite preaching communism but actually a capitalist. The propaganda is from Chomsky, true libertarianism is classic liberalism.

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@Mars2O84 Giving blind people money through volunteer charity is how it works in a classic libertarian society, along with allowing blind people to work at jobs they can handle for less pay since they are less skilled and cannot be hired if there is high minimum wage. As I try to unbrainwash you from your communist Chomsky propaganda I wish for you to look up on Google how Chomsky has been exposed as a capitalist and holds stocks just like Michael Moore does. Chomsky/Moore are capitalists.

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@Mars2O84 "If one individual grows apples to feed his community at no profit, they'd be role model." No, they would be a communist idiot like Chomsky and you and some person would always end up taking more apples because he was fatter and more hungry and spent more time on the treadmill and burned more calories that is unfair. You need to read something called the free lunch myth on youtube

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@Mars2O84 Oh great another neo communist Chomsky twat, I've seen many of these idiots before.