Particualrism isn't such a big problem

[ctchampagne]

"This issue of evidence...I won't get into it." Really? No, please, do get into it. I'd really like to see you try.

[lockwyn]

its all in your mind.

[sabin97]

i'm not sure i understood your point...

so i'll ask about an extreme case

lets say mr. A is an exemplary citizen. he helps the needy, helped start a foundation to rehabilitate drug addicts, sponsors children sports teams, helps the poor in meaningful ways(not just handing them a bit of food). Mr. A also happens to be an atheist, and not just that, but he's very vocal about it and tries to convince others that christianity is false.

assuming he never changes...

will he go to heaven? or hell?

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@sabin97 In the Christian view, all people are imperfect and therefore deserving of hell. A list of good deeds doesn't really make someone perfect. So Mr. A would go to Hell.

[sabin97]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner

oh, didnt know perfection was a requirement to avoid the brutal tortures of hell.

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@sabin97 The idea is that anytime you do anything wrong, you believe in it and want it. Since God is perfect, any evil action is a request for God to go away. Hell is the complete and total loss of God, who is goodness itself. The obvious conundrum that arises is that no one does everything right or everything wrong.

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner So obviously these conflicting desires would "war" within you. They would each become stronger and stronger until you can't avoid making a choice.  That is the Christian view. Obviously, proving it to be true to reality is another issue.

[sabin97]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner

just quoting your post:

"A list of good deeds doesn't really make someone perfect. So Mr. A would go to Hell."

the implication being that perfection is a requirement to avoid the brutal eternal tortures YHWH has prepared.

[Quierame407]

@sabin97 You're point out a fundamental flaw in most religions, which were created when mankind knew little of the Universe around him. I call it the "anti-ego."

God is good, and only makes good things, but somehow mankind is inherently bad. Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit and suddenly their molecular structure went from something good to something evil. I am also expected to believe childbirth would not be painful if she and Adam had just left "that damned fruit" alone.

[sabin97]

@Quierame407

"God is good, and only makes good things, but somehow mankind is inherently bad."

that statement implies god didnt make mankind(as mankind is NOT good, an god can ONLY make good things)

also who created satan? who created the bacteria that cause disease?

about the tree? if it was so dangerous why would god leave two innocent children at the mercy of an evil talking snake to begin with???is he incompetent as a father? or just wicked?

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@sabin97 Could God have morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil? Perhaps letting you run your own life? Perhaps letting you be evil or good? Why do atheists place so much importance on the freedom to believe what you want, but then their favorite reason to reject God is that He isn't here taking away that freedom. They claim that He should be their omnipotent thought dictator. Here's the hymns they seem to want "Oh, most marvelous dictator. We bow in your oppressive Tryranny"

[sabin97]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner

"They claim that He should be their omnipotent thought dictator." actually the god the bible paints is more like a mafia boss

"you can pay up for protection or....maybe someone wtih a bat will break your legs"

the paying up for protection would be bending down to the will of the religious leaders(because "god said to do this or that") and the braeking your legs would be eternal tortures YHWH has prepared for mankind.

[sabin97]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner

also, would you leave a loaded gun next to two innocent children?

they are very likely to play with it and it's extremely dangerous....

would removing something extremely dangerous from two innocent children go against their free will?to me it seems to be good parenting, you let your children make their own mistakes but you dont let them play with guns(specially loaded guns).leaving it with them and saying "dont play with it" isnt good enough

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@sabin97 Are you suggesting that the God of the Eden story was good, then he would have removed all possibility of free choice?

[sabin97]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner

i'm saying that leaving two innocent children next to something extremely dangerous and with a bad influence(the magical talking snake) and just telling them "dont play with it" is terrible parenting, and probably criminally negligent

also saying that the "free choice" we have is like someone pointing a gun to your head and saying "give me the money or die"

and some people choose to call the guy with the gun a good and merciful person....

[DrMadolite]

@sabin97 You're assuming that there's a Gun there. I agree that it's wrong when christian parents claim that God is a person with a Gun. But what atheists don't get is that most christian parents DON'T claim that to their kids, it's atheists who claim it who base their atheism on the extremist christians (like Westboro Baptist Church, Literal Creationists and whatnot).

But when atheists messes up, they just call everyone an apologetic just so they can keep their acrgument. Familiar?

[sabin97]

@DrMadolite

very familiar with the gun to the head. when it comes down to the "saving your soul" thing it usually comes down to "if you dont obey you will be tortured forever".

sounds like a gun to the head?to me it does. it's "do as i say or else"

it's pretty much the same as a robber pointing a gun to your head and telling you to give him your wallet. or a mafia boss asking for "protection money" you can pay up(follow the relgious leaders) or have your legs broken(be sent to hell)

[DrMadolite]

@sabin97 "when it comes down to the "saving your soul" thing it usually comes down to "if you dont obey you will be tortured forever"."

Well, at least you recognize that it *usually* comes doen to that and that it's not part of the definition of Christianity, but rather one direction within christianity (that, btw, a lot of other christians frown upon because its a perverted interpretation of the bible the same way that there exist perverted interpretations of scientific fact).

[sabin97]

@DrMadolite

i guess it all comes down to one question...

do you think that someone can disobey(not accept jesus, etc) and still avoid hell?

[DrMadolite]

@sabin97 No, because in my opinion Jesus isn't a person but a incarnation of a human self reaching wholeness. Imagine disobeying your own potentials in life and a living hell (of variable degree) is pretty much unavoidable.

Imagine a heavy heroin addict, he's become lost in his addiction and he can't get out of it because he's lost the ability to do so. So he needs help from others, but his pride and shame causes him not to seek help. He's in hell and I'm pretty sure he agrees.

[DrMadolite]

@DrMadolite So my point is that heaven and hell represents the two extremes of emotional life - joy and suffering. Has nothing to do with any afterlife concept IMO. When you die your ego dies and your body returns to the lifecycle. Which by itself is heaven enough for me, to think that I am an actual part of the universe and I will always be as such - in whatever form or shape, with whatever consciousness, limbo, motion or stasis that I'm capable of.

[sabin97]

@DrMadolite

so....

afterlife? or no afterlife?

[DrMadolite]

@sabin97 Well all energy is constant, that's a scientific statement. But beyond that, there is no afterlife because that assumes that life is defined as something more than the ability to absorb nurturing to sustain a physical body mechanism.

Afterlife as a factual phenomenon can only be, logically, a metaphor to that simple scientific statement that I just mentioned.

[sabin97]

@DrMadolite

"Well all energy is constant, that's a scientific statement." the sum of all energy in the universe is constant, correct.

so no afterlife. christianity preaches an afterlife, so i take it you are not a christian.

on afterlife means no eternal heaven or hell. so christian theology doesnt really apply here...

so in that case the gun to the head wouldnt apply, as there's no eternal torture involved....

[DrMadolite]

@sabin97 correction: christianity doesn't preach anything, it's a word with a definition. Christians* preach an afterlife - meaning some/most christians but not all christians and not as part of the definition of christianity, but rather an extension.

Afterlife: where in the bible does it specifically state that it's NOT related to anything but a literal life after having physically died? Nowhere, Afterlife can mean physical but it can also relate to life after the death of the ego.

[sabin97]

@DrMadolite

and we go back to my last statement from my previous post

"so in that case the gun to the head wouldnt apply, as there's no eternal torture involved...."

[DrMadolite]

@sabin97 The gun to the head still applies, you don't stop calling a terrorist a terrorist just because another terrorist is doing more of the same thing and doing so over a longer period of time.

The principal point in my "gun to the head" argument, was that the bible is a book. It's not a conscious living being capable of personal action, let alone any responsibility. Responsibility comes from "response" and "ability". The ability to respond, thus the expectation to do so.

[DrMadolite]

@DrMadolite In other words, the Bible is completely harmless when in the hands of a rational human being who's freely reading it without getting constant partial interpretations of the book (by religious extemists) rammed up his face.

Of course it makes sense for the Bible to tell gruesome stories of torture and such, if you've already been told THAT's the true meaning. It's religious people who've invented the notion that Bible is a unique book and MUST be obeyed at all cost.

[sabin97]

@DrMadolite

"The gun to the head still applies, you don't stop calling a terrorist a terrorist just because another terrorist is doing more of the same thing and doing so over a longer period of time."

i agree

yet we are not talking about someone stopping a behaviour temporarily. we are talking about someone NOT engaging in a behaviour.

someone who never commits any terrorist acts(or associates with terrorists or helps them in any way shape or form) is NOT a terrorist.

[sabin97]

@sabin97

i may have minsdunderstood your position about the whole christianity thing. so let me ask you something more direct

do you believe that after you die you will be sent to eternal torture if you dont accept jesus as your personal saviour?(hopefully the answer to that will help make things more clear)

[DrMadolite]

@sabin97 NOT engaging in a behaviour? not sure I follow, wasn't your whole point that the Bible causes people to do certain acts because it tells them to?

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@sabin97 Could Adam and Eve have had free control over whether they are good or bad without at least one commandment?

[sabin97]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner

of course

you dont need someone to TELL you what's right or wrong...

the only thing a commandment can help you with is being obedient to authority, which isnt the same as doing what's right.

nazi soldiers were obedient to authority.....but they didnt do the right thing....they killed about 6 million civilians...

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@sabin97 OK, well I don't really think I understand what you're trying to prove. I hear what you're saying about God being a mafia boss and Adam and Eve being abused toddlers, but I'm not real sure I know what you're trying to prove from that. What's the conclusion you're drawing?

[sabin97]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner

i'm saying that the god of the eden story is not giving any more free choice than an armed robber pointing a gun to your head, or a mafia boss asking for protection money.

in all 3 cases your options are "obey me or else..."

[rinmaone2]

kill the dog

[jonathanhallgrid]

I WOULD HAVE WATCHED THE VIDEO IF YOU FILMED IT AWAY FROM THAT F**KING DOG

[Mark777X]

i never had god, how can i have rejected him? i looked everywhere !... if he is as big and powerful as its said then why can he not just come around to mine for a brew and a chat, we could sort it all out once and for all without the danger of any mistakes. if im not important enough that he is to leave me guessing in the dark then he is the one who made the mistake and he is going to punish me for it ? doesnt quite get to the nub of ethical behaviour to me.

[SickJargon]

Religion is contradictory in my opinion, as religion is generelized as a belief, a faith. That doesn't mean it's true.

As an atheist it's difficult to put my faith in something so vague. Since any 'evidence' that is shared fails to prove the existance of god. Also, I wonder how gullible people were during the time of jesus christ.. That if they committed murder they would be sent to hell... During that age, that sort of talk was scary, I'm sure. But now, this is a modern age. A lot has changed.

[Tanvir6079]

make more sense freind. get your self educated. and shut that fucking dog.

[estragon9]

My impression is that you live in a world of completely unsupported assertions. Heaven, Hell, the immortality of the human soul, the soul itself, There isn't a scrap of evidence for any of these things. The notion that Jesus is divine and believing this is a ticket to heaven is clearly traceable in the history of the early church. That is, its not even biblical.

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@estragon9 40% of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are devoted to the last week of his life. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul explains this Gospel by quoting what is apparently an early creed of the church. Therefore this creed predates the 53-57 AD writing of the text. Furthermore, he says that he had received it. From 1 Cor 11:23 we see that this probably meant when he spent time with Jesus after his fleeing Damascus. This dates the story to 33 to 36 AD. Very close to the Passion events of 33.

[estragon9]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner "we see that this probably meant when he spent time with Jesus after his fleeing Damascus." Are you claiming Paul met Jesus in person?

None of what you say above, is evidence for heaven, hell, or the human soul. Do you think people like Matthew, Mark, Luke, Jesus, or Alexander the great, simply talking about heaven is evidence for it's existence?

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@estragon9 It is evidence that this statement doesn't correspond to reality. "The notion that Jesus is divine and believing this is a ticket to heaven is clearly traceable in the history of the early church. That is, its not even biblical."

[yournotright101]

Edwards video is a parody of the stupidity of christian beliefs and the petulant god at the centre of those beliefs. The whole point of christianity is your a sinner and without god thats how youll stay. The reality is altogether different christians do good and bad things, unbelievers do good and bad things. Belief has nothing to do with action. However there are many bad things believers do for their faith that unbeleivers would never do ie kill an abortion dr.

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

The Christian Gospel is about forgiveness, not a magical instantaneous way to stop messing up. Jesus died on the Cross to pay the punishment owed by man.

[yournotright101]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner Haha funny. Have you actually read the bible. The god of the bible is a petty sadomasochistic misogynistic ethnic cleanser with only a thinly veiled hatred of even his closest supporters. The story is so convoluted, self refuting and contradictory its self evidently unbelieveable. Jesus died on the cross to pay our debt for a sin from a mythical story. Even were the original story true theres nothing moral about a father having his son brutally murdered to pay anothers debt

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@yournotright101 What objection to the Bible would you like to hear me respond to?

[yournotright101]

@ApologeticsBenJoiner OK Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. God made us sinners.I carry the weight of of all sin upon my soul which has occured before I was even born. God sends his only son to earth for the sole reason of being brutally murdered to pay for my and all others sin. The original sin occurs after a man eats an apple, if god is omnipotent then he knew the original sin would occur as he made it so. Does this really make sense to you?

[oscarmarin1995]

@yournotright101 Well, Adam had a choice to make. God wasn't going to force him not to eat the 'fruit' from the tree of knowledge. He just told him not to, because Adam didn't need it. But satan tempted Eve then Adam joined in. Then God came and knew what they had done. Then Eve blamed the snake and Adam blamed Eve and God. Is that very responsible of the two? The same applies to everyone who has ever sinned. Which is every human. Jesus died so we could be forgiven and live for and talk to him.

[yournotright101]

@oscarmarin1995 Yes Adam made the choice god would have known he was always going to make. God would have known this when he told him not to eat the fruit. Satan is irrevelant or is god not omnipotent and omniscient afterall. The tautology of the logic is ridiculous. Every human may sin however that sin cannot be paid for by another and nor could it if it were true the original sin occured. Once again immoral and ridiculous logical tautology.

[ApologeticsBenJoiner]

@yournotright101 I agree about the sin not being morally payable by another. But I don't think that that is Biblically how Christ saves. Rather, He pays the full punishment and then you grow in Him. But since He completed eternal punishment, you grow in His resurrection at the same time. "ROMANS 6: 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. "

[oscarmarin1995]

@yournotright101 You're acting like Adam. Grow up and take responsibility. All you have to do is ask for forgiveness and repent. It strengthens you, and it's better than falling into hate

[oscarmarin1995]

@yournotright101 And if we were mindless and programmed then we would be incapable of love. So I'm glad I have freewill

[yournotright101]

@oscarmarin1995 what a pathetic strawman arguement. I never said nor implied programming. What I said was god should know our every action long before it occurs sure we have choice but an omnipotent god knows what it would be. The bible is childishly illogical

[oscarmarin1995]

@yournotright101 Did you see my other post. No, the Bible is logical you're just spiritually dead. And stop blaming God lke Adam did, take responsibility for your choices.

[yournotright101]

@oscarmarin1995 I accept resposibility for all my choices and would accept punishment for any which deserve so. I dont kneel in a church and plead to a god to absolve me of the bad choices thats not accepting your choices nor is it moral. Another strawman about being spiritually dead you dont and cannot know the truth of such a statement. No Ive just actually read the bible myself instead of listening to the good bits in church. Yes I saw your other post and it is as illogical as the bible

[AngryHateMusic]

"There's no lack of evidence, I'll just leave it at that." LOL! I heard an IRS lawyer say that last week.

[glyph250]

So you worship a God who created a species of "bad people" who "deserve to go to hell?" Sounds like kind of a mean thing to do. I don't want to keep the company of a monster who creates monsters, even if it's just to toss them in a fire after a few short years.

[darkluigi901]

@glyph250

its funny how people like you pounce on one thing with all other thoughts aside and beat it till its horribly mutilated. people have the choice to be bad dumbass

[glyph250]

@darkluigi901 There are over 6,500,000,000 people on the planet. None of them can make the choices that will allow them to get into heaven without divine intervention. Spot the trend, moron. Either your God is a bumbling idiot who has failed at creating people who don't deserve hell, or he has a recipe for creating monsters with a 100% success rate. Is your God a success or a failure at his job? If you think he's a success, do the math and realize THIS IS WHAT HE WANTS.

[darkluigi901]

@glyph250

so what your saying is people who don't have freedom of religion can't decide to be a christian? wow your still putting ALL the other thoughts aside. if people really wanted jesus in their hearts they wouldn't care about the penalty. god even says in the bible. people who had no opporitunitey to hear my words or listen to the truth can go to heaven. example: abortion/failed babies go to heaven. aetheists...

[glyph250]

@darkluigi901 I suppose I am a typical atheist, prone to zooming in on contradictions and refusing to let go of them. And you're more of a typical Christian, trying to rebut an argument with something completely unrelated because you either didn't read my comment or you didn't pay enough attention to it to know what it said.

[darkluigi901]

@glyph250

i choose Christian stereotype # 2

[chacaholly]

How can we hate god, if we don't believe that he exist!

[harmolodicsoul]

@TonyRJ1989 I know. It's cool I know what you mean. haha its funny cuz it just so happens to be christianity, ya know. Kinda like when you see a sweet movie and there's a character you like....the hero, then you try and be like him in real life, so i live it, tryin to be like a soldier from a kingdom and all that haha...but then i do a lot of reading too, like a nerd, haha, but all my personal morals and goals seem to match the bible, and its cool. its healthy to talk to you keeps us sane i hope

[harmolodicsoul]

@TonyRJ1989 It just so happens to be that this kind of lifestyle is "

Christianity". So because I quiet my mind and not be polluted by pesemistic thoughts like swearing and loud music...which is cool somtimes, i still feel like people would rather feel love and hope and freedom rather than sickness and hurt and anxiety. Thats why i am who i am. Most christians don't go into the bible so they think they portray Good when they actually are hateful. Its all good..just be open minded and I will be

[harmolodicsoul]

@TonyRJ1989 As far as purpose in the Christian life, which i don't like that term christian because its watered down so bad...if you honestly wanna know, its....God is my king....and I am in his kingdom...someone loyal and of royalty. What else do I need haha. And if its all nonsense, ill still be the same because i have a purpose...which is being a father to the fatherless, caring for the widows, sounds funny but its true. Its like being a jedi. Its simply not being evil. thats all......

[harmolodicsoul]

@TonyRJ1989 I'm not looking for a reward. And there is no hate with God...just like dark can't mix with light or oil with water. God supposably is love....the actual thing love lol does that make sense? So if he's love, none of his followers should be hateful....but somepeople just are because they think they know it all. But homsexual people or drunkards or stuff like that, its just the outcome of it all harms people. Drunk driving accidents or aids and stuff. Its not shunned...just dangerous

[harmolodicsoul]

and daveydsurveys, wether or not you would call history an evidence in accordance to the bible or not, all i know is that, even if there's a funny chance God doesn't exist, I still will always live the Christ way, because there is purpose and i aint sitting around living to die for nothing looking for reason and rationalism all my life which is boring and pointless, if we all will die anyways, might as well live with purpose, and that purpose is selfless..and I know i am not the only one like me

[harmolodicsoul]

Just to somthing you said in the very end about there being stronger punishments in hell depending on the sin....well, just to add or whatever, according to the bible, God is life, yeah? And sin is or leads to death. Sin is separation from God. So there's two sides on this line. God...and sin. Life and death. The more one sins and is consumed by it, the farther that person moves away from God...in other words, deeper into sin = into a farther death, and death also means Hell or Haites.

[daveydsurveys]

This video felt like you're trying to convince yourself that your religious upbringing is correct.

The reason atheists don't believe in god is because there is no concrete evidence for god's existence.. If there was evidence then believers wouldn't need "faith". You claim evidence exist, but then you just ramble on without mentioning it. If you know of evidence then please make a video citing the evidence! Atheists aren't "committed to sin" we're committed to reason / rationalism.