Did anyone ever buck the authority of the Bishop of Rome?

[TheGenuineChristian]

I think there's a word that isn't spelled right in the title of your video...

[msm1876]

@TheGenuineChristian I looked at the title, and was all, "No...no, there are no typos..." and then when it hit me, I pretty well did a spit take!  LOL

[redbaron998]

(cont)

"For who is so mad to doubt that blessed Cyprian, that light of all saints and martyrs, with his colleagues shall reign for eternity with Christ? Or who, on the contrary, so sacrilegious as to deny that the Donatists and the other plagues, who boast that it is by the authority of that Council that they rebaptize, shall burn with the devil for ever?" (Commonitorium I:6)

[msm1876]

@redbaron998 Read Cyp's epistle 66. Read how Faustinus sent letters to BOTH Cyp and Stephen about Marcian. He was doing this to get "U.N. approval" before going to war, so to speak. He wanted the approval of two powerful bishops before encouraging the people of Lyons to depose a heretical bishop and elect a new bishop. If they were considered excommed by Cyp and Stephen, well, it would encourage the people of France to officially throw him out. Nothing more.

[msm1876]

@redbaron998 But look, the big argument was, "No one ever bucked the Bishop of Rome's authority when he interfered in the affairs of other bishops." And though you may try to put a gloss on it, as if to say, "Well, at least Cyprian supported ROman Primacy," well, Primacy doesn't equal supremacy. And Papal Supremacy is NOT the ancient faith of the Church, as demonstrated here.

[redbaron998]

(cont)

Then Pope Stephen of blessed memory, Prelate of the Apostolic See, together with his colleagues, indeed, but yet beyond the others, resisted; thinking it fit, I deem, that he should surpass all others as much by the devotion of his faith as by the authority of his rank...."

"What was the end? What force was there in the African council? By God's gift, none at all. All, as a dream or a tale, was abolished, forgotten."

(cont)

[redbaron998]

We also have St. Augustines eithier did not agree with St. Cyprians stance (De bapt I, xviii:28) and of even more stark disagreement with St. Cyprian was St. Vincent of Lerins. Who wrote "Once upon a time, Agrippinus of venerable memory, bishop of Carthage, first of all men, against the divine Canon of Scripture, against the rule of the universal Church....thought rebaptism ought to be practised.... (cont)

[redbaron998]

However, and here is really what matters, was Cyprian right to do what he did? Well in this matter I will reference 3 other prominent Christian writers.

The first being that St. Jerome commented that about this council in Carthage that, "Eventually those very Bishops, who had decreed with him that heretics were to be rebaptized, returned to the ancient custom, and published a new decree." (c. Lucif 23)

[redbaron998]

For example. St. Cyprian writes that being in communion with Rome is essential to Catholic Communion. Cyprian also held that the Bishop of Rome had the authority to dispose of a heretical bishop. (Indeed St. Cyprian wrote to the Pope asking him to select a replacement of Marcian of Arles) Indeed it is evident from St. Cyprians writings (see his Epistles 73, 33, 43) that St. Cyprian veiwed Rome is the source of Christian unity.

[redbaron998]

The question then arises at what about Papal Supremacy. Some, such as Irenaeus easily back while Cyprian may have held the concept of Papal primacy as closer to orthodoxy. What is confusing is that some of Cyprian writings could seem to go both ways. The notable pro-primacy evidence is the Council of Carthage that you qouted. However in St. Cyprians other writings he back the importance of Rome and it as the center of orthodoxy.

[redbaron998]

Let me introduce this by saying that I do not believe there is a better argument against the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome than St. Cyprian. Let my also clarify that I believe Stephen Ray is correct. The point if here Papal Primacy vs. Papal Supremacy. I believe it a given, considering the sacred scriptures and early fathers that at the very least Papal Primacy (first among equals) was backed.

[redbaron998]

Hello again, Interestingly this argument is a reiteration of an argumet that took place between German protestant Scholars and Don John Chapman.

Check out: philvaz (dot) com/apologetics/num44 (dot) htm

sorry about formating, you know how youtube is.

[KeithTruth]

Always interesting info. Good stuff bro.

[hadzhere]

Christians: arguing their dodgy doctrines since the birth of the religion.

Makes you wonder if it's based on anything real at all don'it?

Where was the Holy Spirit's direction when all this was going on?

38,000 fractured denominations (and counting) answer those questions, I would think.

John 17:22 - Another failed prophecy/prayer of Jesus.