Greg Bahnsen - Problems for Unbelieving Worldviews (part 8)

[sdcorfu]

Ratings have been disabled for this video....FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS.

[havvyweponsman]

His "origin of life" tirade is so profoundly dishonest I don't even know where to begin.

[nonseans]

7:45 - he goes insane...

[mattea19841984]

this video series is GOLD!!

[TrueTaike]

You have millions of question on the bible "errors" ..well lets hear them. Or you can do the ez thing and look them up yourself..they are all easily addressed.

[DevoutAtheist42]

The source of his scorn from 7:30 onward is based, partly, on a complete misconception of the atheism George Smith expressed. It's not a worldview, it's just a response to the evidence and arguments posed by the religious.

And the dichotomy he uses over and over again, the Christian versus the Unbeliever, is a false dichotomy. There are almost as many schools of thought as there are people on this planet; many non-Christian belief systems have answers to all the questions he poses and more.

[DevoutAtheist42]

His attack on Smith at the end shows one of the critical differences between atheists and theists.

Bahnsen ridicules him for saying he doesn't know how life originated, that it was an issue for scientists to sort out.

Well... that's exactly right. It's NOT "one of the most difficult questions in the history of philosophy," it's not a philosophical question at all! Bahnsen's response is just bizarre.

Smith doesn't know, and he admits that. Theists don't know, but they say they do.

[TrueTaike]

I have the lack of belief in athiesm. :)

[TrueTaike]

Such a lack..that i had to say it twice. :) Since i have the lack of belief in atheism..i don't have to defend myself....Atheist..Do. Cause they believe in the concept of atheism.

[DevoutAtheist42]

No, we don't. It's not a positive statement; we don't, mostly, believe that there *is no God*, we just *don't believe in God*, and don't believe that any of the arguments that have been presented for belief are good.

[deadgoblin86]

This guys analysis is so overly simplistic, he says that life coming from unlife is so incredible, but i doubt he understands the biochemistry of HOW that is possible. Then he would see that though it is remarkable it is not anything supernaturalk

[jefmaze]

The Johnny story sounds to me like What Christians do all the time. When faced with evidence of the Bibles lack of literal truth they run from it." No MY bible is right!!"

[jsktheflash]

How is it that you can make a truth claim jefmaze? How do you know what truth is?

[jefmaze]

Well are you a biblical literalist? If so explain the bible's apparent mistakes when compared with science.

[TrueTaike]

@jefmaze there are no mistakes..the mistakes are your mistakes, your misunderstandings..People have tryed to debunk Christianity for thousands of years..and it still here..and most people that try to debunk it become most have become Christians. So all i can say is..DO your worse. Btw..Most Christians aren't literalist..we believe the bible has many forms..metaphors, similes, poems, just as many books do.

[jefmaze]

Oh so when the Bible says that Pi is 3 and not 3.14 we should take that as poetic license?

Thats just one in dozens of mistakes. You're practicing ad hoc logic to support a dying superstition. Scientific discovery has forced most Christians to turn God into an intangible metaphor ie. God is love, to save him. In Europe Christianity's ranks are melting away faster than the polar ice caps and even in America the number of self proclaimed atheists have almost doubled in the last 50 years.

[TrueTaike]

@jefmaze "Pi 3 and not 3.14" I'm sorry but you are making me laugh..you are trying so hard... 3 is so close..yet you want to say its 3.14 even though there is more to pi then 3.14. So by your standerd your Pi isn't even right either. What do you think people in the bible where using Pi for..building rockets? Yes its true Christianity is getting lower in Europe and the North America..but its exploding everywhere else...some places at 600%. So most of what you said was BS.

[jefmaze]

Shall I write out the whole number with only 500 character limit?Don't be silly. Even still I got closer than God did to the right number LOL!!Maybe God can cheat off me next time. LMAO!!!

"What do you think people in the bible where using Pi for..building rockets?"

Wow ! What an idiotic statement.

The Egyptians knew Pi, the Greeks did as well and their structures show this . This was established before the Bible was written. Yet God and his chosen people were ignorant of the proper number.

[TrueTaike]

@jefmaze God Chose to not make the bible a math book..and let the man who wrote the book put 3 instead of 3.14 and all the numbers that follow that just to make you happy. Would you have been happy with 3.14...i doubt it ..you would want the number written to infinity before you would have been content. This is what makes this argument..so sad.

[jefmaze]

What's sad is you have no idea what you're talking about or even where this glaring error is in YOUR holy book. There's no need to write out the whole number because the description given is of a vessel and lists its radius AND diameter (one is needed the other isn't) and the sizes DON"T MATCH.

A surprising error for the "creator of all things". So we can conclude that either A) any 9th grade algebra student is smarter than God, or B) the Bible was written by fallible men and there's no god.

[jefmaze]

Please give it up you're obviously ad hoc reasoning through this thing and you aren't making much sense.

I suggest that you go pick up a bible and really read what you're defending. I'm sure you'll find some surprising revelations in it about your religion.

Reading and rereading the bible is what finally took me from being unquestioning Fundamentalist Christian to a proud,happy and open minded atheist. :-)

[TrueTaike]

@jefmaze Now your a fundamentalist atheist...nice.. Grats?  Read the bible. thanks for the advice though. If your so happy being an atheist..why are you here wasting your time with me? and why the desperate question on Pi?

[DevoutAtheist42]

Nonsense. Pi was already known to 2 or 3 digits at the time; if the Bible had pushed it out just 2 or 3 more, that would be a very interesting fact about it. As it is, the "pi = 3" example by itself shows that the Bible is not correct in every detail, and is not even at least as correct as the best human knowledge of the day. It doesn't matter that it's not a "math book."

[TrueTaike]

@DevoutAtheist42 Desperation is the word i see when I'm talking to you people as yourselves. You are so desperate. Your willing to look at the most insignificant thing to discredit something that Goes against your world View. Why do you think the Bible has to Write..as you want it to? Why is it wrong to round the numbers? Many numbers get rounded in the bible. This in no way says that God can't count.. Desperation.

[TrueTaike]

@DevoutAtheist42 When Israel was preparing to enter Canaan, the bulk of the nation was to remain about two thousand cubits away from the ark of the covenant (Josh. 3:4). On the day of Pentecost, about three thousand souls constituted the church (Acts 2:41; cf. 4:4). The children of Israel were in the wilderness of Sinai about forty years (Acts 13:18). The bible in no way obligated to be exact when it doesn't want to be.

[DevoutAtheist42]

And how, exactly, do you tell when it wants to be exact, and when it's just approximating? It doesn't tell you. Maybe some of the Ten Commandments are just approximations of moral behaviours, and the others are strict, literal moral requirements. We should convene a panel of religious scholars at once to discuss the possibility.

[DevoutAtheist42]

There's a larger point here than the silliness of biblical inerrancy. I'd also like to point out that nothing in the whole book, whether literal or interpreted, shows any great knowledge or wisdom that would have been out of place in its human context.

This is something of a problem for a divinely inspired book, I would think, but maybe I'm expecting too much from what is, after all, merely an infinitely wise and powerful being.

[TrueTaike]

You my friend need to read the book...cause i see hundreds of exp of amazing wisdom from that Book.(as expected) Wisdom that i still do not see in this world.

[scjason420]

@ 7:35

YES!!!!!! AMEN! LOL I HATE THAT

[fiercegallantry]

Given St. Augustine's interpretation of _Genesis_, I'm not sure we have to deny "evolution" -- except in its radical forms.

[mayartay]

I agree with Dr. Bahnsen's viewpoint at the end of this part of the video, but the fact is that philosophy is completely subordinated to science in modern academia. So if we as Christians express shock at this it isn't likely to have much impact. They have put the burden on Christians to explain why evolution is irrational and lacks scientific evidence, but of course that is not a topic that Dr. Bahnsen (a philosopher) covers.

[Klaratu]

Atheism is pathetic! Relying on christian presuppositions to make human experience intelligible! Hypocrites! In fact to criticize christianity the atheist has to presuppose the christian worldveiw which has absolute universal standards in which to argue in the first place. Atheism presupposes theism....

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

Feel the Christian love...

[maytruthabound]

see the suppression of God by the unbeliever...

[IRQ1Conflict]

Heh, I define Anti-theist in the strictest sense. Atheist over time have redefined the teems and conditions of their arguments as it suits them. They've become very adept at taqqia and should get along well with Islam as they have unwittingly enabled their worst fear. Let the games begin.

No, I'm trinitarian.

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

I humbly suggest you read up more on atheism in general before judging it.

You don't see me judging christianity by using Fred Phelps or Kent Hovind as an example, do you?

[MRKetter81]

But then you have no rational basis to asume either of those speakers you have just mentioned are being irrational in the first place. You simply claim it to be so, based on your own opinion.

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

Where did I say that those two speakers are being irrational? Not sure of the point you are trying to make here...

[murrayjamesm]

Hi pieorghao...

The man Bahnsen is talking about, George Smith, is a well-known writer. His book on atheism is one of the bestselling in American history, so he's hardly the equivalent of a Phelps or Hovind.

Your criticism--that atheism is simply a lack of belief in God--is addressed by Bahnsen in earlier videos in this series. Bahnsen takes issue with the subtitle of Smith's book, which is not about absence of belief, but called "The Case Against God."

[IRQ1Conflict]

What I want to know is, why is it that an atheist will acknowledge that some of the simplest systems and man made art, buildings, sewage systems ect have an intelligence behind it yet deny that the immensely more complex things in nature couldn't possibly have an intelligence behind them? Where is the proof of their claim there is no God?

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

'Where is the proof of their claim there is no God?'

Watch out for hasty generalisations. Atheists do not claim that God does not exist. Atheism literally means 'absence of god-belief'. Maybe some atheists claim that God does not exist, but it would be more correct to label them anti-theists.

[aricandisgood]

No Atheism comes from two Greek words Meta:negative and Theos:God. Literally "No God".

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

*sigh* here we go again.

'atheism', from the Greek 'atheos', where

A = without, absence, lack of, non-

theos = god, deity

-ism = suffix, meaning 'doctrine', 'theory', 'belief'

thus:

THE-ISM = god-belief

A-THE-ISM = absence of god-belief

Or simply check any online Greek dictionary.

[aricandisgood]

No, that simply is not correct.

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

'No, that simply is not correct.'

Please provide more information or a laid out argument. Simply saying so doesn't make it so.

[apparrattus]

i would have to agree with pioerghaozprhgorueir on this one. "meta" is not a negative term, in fact I believe it means "above." "atheism" is similar to the derivitives for "agnostic": a + gnosis (knowledge) = agnostic "not knowing. i think you've just overcomplicated it.

[fiercegallantry]

theism: god belief

a-theism: lack of god belief

Likewise,

flammable: subject to combustion

in-flammable: not subject to combustion

...Er, wait...

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

Not sure what point you are trying to make, exactly...

[fiercegallantry]

It's called satire.

The correct etymology for atheism derives from the Greek *atheos* meaning "without God or gods."

As for the definition, saying that an atheist is someone who has *no belief* in God is begging the question.

[TrueTaike]

I have the lack of belief in athiesm. :)

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

'...man made art, buildings, sewage systems ect have an intelligence behind it...etc'

You can watch a building being built. Have you ever seen a creature being zapped into existance by God? Also, you should be careful making analogies. Buildings are made by more than one person...are you promoting polytheism here?

[UnBeguiled]

Life exists.

If you ask me, how did life come to be?

My answer: I don't know.

Bahnsen's answer: God did it.

Plugging an imaginary 'god' into gaps in knowledge is not an answer, it's a non-answer. It's a grotesque affront to reason, and a devious shell game game.

This guy is a joke.

[1980PintoMan]

It's not that you don't know where life came from, you can't say where matter came from in your world view. It's not plugging God into gaps.

[UnBeguiled]

Why dos this guy keep saying "Atheist Worldview"? Atheism, is simply the absence of belief in gods.

Is absence of belief in magic elves a worldview? No.

Is absence of belief in bigfoot a worldview?  No.

Is absence of belief in witches a worldview? No.

Bahnsen's basic premise is false, so all his conclusions are false.

[1980PintoMan]

No. No one says elves made the universe, or bigfoot or witches. You have to say where matter came from. You can't. Where did time come from? You can't say. It's not that you don't know, you can't even begin to answer. If you're going to live out an atheistic worldview, quit borrowing from Christianity.

[UnBeguiled]

"You have to say where matter came from."

Matter exists. Why must I say where it came from?

[1980PintoMan]

Because you can't explain it with an atheistic view,that's the point. It's linked to time, where did time come from?

[UnBeguiled]

Pinto:

Me: Why must I explain it?

You: Because you can't explain it.

Is this really how you have a conversation?

------------------------------

"Where did time come from?"

Time is uncaused. The question is non-sense. It's like asking what is above up.

[1980PintoMan]

You are missing the point entirely. You can't explain concepts, or morality, or even why you would use the scientific method. It's not nonsense, you just wont think. You borrow from Christianity then say I'm not making sense. If you can't ask where time is from, why ask anything? You don't want to find the truth.

[UnBeguiled]

"You are missing the point entirely."

Check your email. Let's have a real conversation.

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

'Because you can't explain it with an atheistic view,that's the point. It's linked to time, where did time come from?'

If you wish to state that time and matter come from God, you eventually run into the same problem: where did God come from. You might say then: "Well, yeah, but God is eternal and was always there." One could say the same about time and matter, so why the need for God? Don't you just WANT God to exist?

[1980PintoMan]

Time could not always exist or else it wouldn't be time. The point is, atheists won't even attempt to find answers, as you've proven. Smith said as much, he doesn't know, doesn't care. You can't come up with a logical explanation for a lot of things because you say, or should say, only the material matters. You are simply stuck.

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

'The point is, atheists won't even attempt to find answers, as you've proven.'

You might want to look into string theory. Or the parallel universes theory. Or visit the Large Hadron Collider, with which scientists hope to discover the Higgs boson, or so-called 'god particle'. Seems there are a lot of people attempting to answer questions...and I think I'll go for that instead of a non-saying 'God did it', thank you very much.

[pioerghaozprhgorueir]

1980PintoMan, a question for you:

Was a viking in 900 AD right to believe in Thor? After all, whenever he saw a thunderstorm, that was proof of Thor's existance: that was Thor riding over the clouds in his goatspan throwing Mjolnir. He could easily say to an atheist viking: 'you don't have any explantion for thunder and lighting, so Thor must exist', right?

[pedicabdr1ver]

wow. i've never seen bahnsen get angry.