i have 3 degrees in astronomy,physics an religion an i have come to the same conclusions as ravi.the main one for me is WHO decides what is good an what is bad or evil.society?man,people .no way we are all doers of bad things so there must be a moral law giver.GOD an the god of the bible jesus made it all.john 1.
@MrBeefreetwo I absolutely love seeing things like this: you with your degrees. I get a bit overwhelmed discussing Christ with evolutionists and atheist college students. They always assume their brains, filled with knowledge, contain the "proof" of either no God or the "proof" evolution. It is draining to witness to them. God bless.
@MrBeefreetwo no i disagree. let me ask you a simple question. (i assume you re christian). you believe that there is one proper way to god and that only through god can we get our moral code, yes? since christianity and judaism have not existed for since the dawn of our time, how then did certain tribes and societies coexist without a path to god? and surely you cannot claim that all morality on earth stemmed from the judaism and christian religion because that is a fallacy.
Humans have created a sense of morality on their own, not through the grace of God, Without moralitys humans wouldn't have became as successful as we are now, and relying on God to give you the answer to that just plain and simply bullshit. If I was to say why do I think that a apple tastes nice, I wouldn't then say because of this is because of some God who has delievered this idea of that I like the apple. I would say that I, as a human have decieded that it like it, not God.
Thats not a clear example because He has to ask, how did He have a tongue to taste if the apple is nice? There has to be a foundation otherwise it is just fact on theory
You think an apple tastes good because your body requires the sugars in the apple to survive.
This is why apples taste good to you and crap tastes good to dung beetles.
If we look at it from a purely biological/naturalistic point of view, morality is not always conducive to survival/the passing on of genes. It is best for me to rape someone's wife and leave her and her husband to raise my offspring. There is a species of bird that does something similar.
All such discussions are about people trying to win arguments or persuade one another -- somebody please PROVE something! Invoke the Deity, summon an angel, work a miracle, something -- talk is cheap!
@SupernalOne if you cant see the proof in the logical arguments then you just might as well say you dont believe in the world around you which is the proof that you seek. answer me this have you ever seen the wind? you've seen it's effect but not the wind itself. and yet you see the tree move and know its the wind! tell me how you can make that assumption and still not believe in anything you can not see. once you admit that you believe in things unseen then its a short hop to God.
I understand the arguments by Lennox and Ravi against Atheism, but I don't see the jump from intelligent design to Christianity. Whats very frustrating is every where I look the focus is always on Atheism (science vs. religion - which is ridiculous), anyone who has taken higher level Maths and has a background in Physics can see the universe is a physical system with intelligent design behind it. I want to get past that and see why they are Christians. Does anyone know where I can read/watch?
This white haired man has proved nothing. There is evidence, from NASA, that amino acids that are the building blocks of DNA and life are found in meteorites, that is fact, you can test it, anyone can come to the same conclusion...this man is selling religion and creationism, he's telling an audience what they want to hear, rather than affording real information to them. If he's claiming a creator made everything, then that creator had to be created as well...explain that?
The problem with the "How do you know what is right is right?" is that there is no moral absolutes. As thunderf00t put quite well, if you were on an island with another person and there was only enough food for one, is it immoral to kill the other person to survive?
I see what you mean but I guess it comes down to this question.
If that person who had no idea of knowing right and wrong were here in our country, would you allow them to do what they do and why should they be stopped? It's obvious that you would educate them on why killing is wrong. But then you need to ask if your moral standing is right or are their moral standard right. It results in an uncontrolled world unless there is one who oversees everything.
@Jondadon2006 Are you trying to say that the only reason you find it wrong to kill and/or eat people is because a diety oversees your life? Yes - moral standarts are tricky and yes - believing that a diety will judge you makes it easier but it is not THE ONLY way to tell if your moral standarts are correct. If you just teach it as a basic human moral it works fine without God.
@Jondadon2006 Of coure I learned it from my parents but I don't see how that's connected. Yes someone was overseeing my life (my parents) but not through any supernatural means obviously. Same way they were my moral compass until then now the entire human race is my moral compass. Not a diety.
@Jondadon2006 In humanity, in evolution, in the building of a society. 5000 years ago people had a completely different moral standart. Why is that since God was there watching over us? In the dawn of mankind we had no moral code whatsoever and were closer to animals but little by little our intelligence evolved along with everything else. Moral and ethics are a human invention so to speak. And if God does oversee everything tell me this - which God is that exactly?
@Jondadon2006 If you're talking about morals and ethics the foundation is the human mind. If you're talking about life itself I don't know what the exact foundation is and neither does any human who has ever lived. Some decide to say that they don't know yet and maybe continue searching for the answer, others say they know everything because the Bible or some other superstition told them. I just believe everything is natural, even the things we don't know yet and not supernatural.
"Some decide to say that they don't know yet and maybe continue searching for the answer, others say they know everything because the Bible or some other superstition told them."
Well how can it be said that the Bible is superstitious if there is no foundation on your side?
@Jondadon2006 Absolutely. Undoubtedly. If there was measurable, demonstrable proof of a diety's manifestation I would be happy to view it. Although I find it funny to try and use a scientific method to prove God when the main argument that I can't use one to disprove Him (it?) is that it's not "science's place". I hear arguments like "Religion and faith are not measurable and demonstrable by any science" yet if scientific proof of God was found would anyone still be saying that?
Ok now the best way we can know of the proof that there is a God is to ask Him himself about the proof He has. Now according to His word, He has put forth proof and also a challenge separating Himself as the only true God. The proof He has given, undeniable proof, I want you to have a listen to a presentation I did personally showing how it could not be chance.
Let me know what you understood from it. I have sent it to your inbox
I can only imagine the horrifying inappropriateness of your "proof". A feeling? The fact that there's something rather than nothing, and that leads you, somehow, to a magical sky daddy? Morals exist, therefore, magical sky daddy? Baby kittens, therefore, magical sky daddy? Please, please... don't tell me. I really don't want to know.
Your "proof" is surely at half as pathetic and fake as this fools' in the video.
@Ryakki I advise you to step out of your box and actually meet people in real life that go to church. In the reality of things, God's influence and the faith people have in Jesus has changed multitudes and multitudes of people. Follow the Hollywood brainwashing agenda and you'll see anything that associates with religion somehow is evil. I'd rather see it in real life then follow a metal box of wires connected to an agenda meant to dilute the truth and society while possessing your mind.
@Ryakki ."This fool"? Is that what you really think of Ravi? Would you like to compare your IQ and earned degrees to his? Or perhaps you would like to debate him regarding the reality of a supreme being who we call God? Agnostic and atheist scholars at prominent universities such as Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc who have debated him would advise you not to try it. None of them share his belief in the God of the bible, but they all have a high regard for his intellectual prowess.
@radiosurgery Wow. I'm speechless that if I was on an island starving I would still need to be told eating someone is wrong. So it's only a moral absolute if I believe in God? Or because someone told me to do it? Really?
My friend please listen to what I am saying because you missed the point. If that person were to live where you are, why would you say to Him that killing is wrong? Let me put it this way.
That same person killed your family member because He was cold and your family member was wearing a very warm coat. Why would you want justice over that person even if they said it is because they were cold?
@Jondadon2006 The second hypothetical you give is a little bit more tenuous. Mostly because your conflating two issues: morality and justice. It's more difficult to answer. As an attorney, our profession does all it can to eliminate morality from criminal conduct. You're not charged with a crime against morality. It is a crime against the state. I'm don't follow a code of ethical conduct (previously called Canons of Ethical Conduct) but a code of professional responsibility. Pleasure to talk.
@radiosurgery The answer is simple, if you were a murderer you would kill the other person and survive for a short time on the small amount of food that was there and then die yourself. If you were not a murderer you would share the food and die together and die without being a murderer. Either way, you die, and in the end we will be judged by our decisions and it would be better at judgment to not have murdered. It would be immoral to kill the other person.
@radiosurgery oh my... i'm sure it is easy enough to type and theorize over these moral situations, but if someone raped, skinned and ate your wife and children and said there was no reason for his actions other than it was his right to do so... you'd have a different opinion that morality is objective my friend.
@radiosurgery If you don't know, the Bible instructs the Christian to pray about it. Because we are in the Laodicean age of the Church (represented as the Bride of Christ) which means it's the New Testament after the martyrdom of Jesus Christ which consquently means we have the Holy Ghost at our disposal which gives us authority over the demonic, prophetic visions, tongues, Godly wisdom, Godly knowledge, and a God that loves YOU whether you just to accept that or not.
@radiosurgery what happens after you kill the person to survive? how much longer will that body sustain you? finally, do you think a human life has more worth than maybe a weeks worth of food consumption?
There is moral law because you do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. Not because some absentee landlord told me to do so or because of some reward in the sky.
You know what is right based on your personal wants and needs. Your emotions at the time. You know if you are thirsty because your body needs water to function and possesses instinctual desire for the substance.
You know slavery is wrong because legalizing it would ensure future slavery and death of you or your offspring (your genetic material).
So if there I have a desire for there to be peace, love, harmony, no suffering, if I have that genetically, and I believe this for every single person on this Earth wanting such qualities, there must be a place that fulfills all these desires.
Only god is big enough to explain this universe and answer some arbitrary questions - that is just saying "I can't explain, but am lost without an explanation, thus I need to invent stuff, otherwise I'd go nuts"
If we had not evolved morals and culture we would have become extinct.Think how you would build a house,no problem.then you want to build it a bit higher but cant reach so you use scaffolding.Its the same with our cells and skeletons.Our bones are but scaffolding supporting our bodies,so our brains can keep evolving.When our skin is joined in the womb it leaves a mark in everybody,its right under our nose,Apart from people withe cleft palates and lips
Hang on, so God is the answer to all four ultimate questions, one of which is morality. The student at Harvard (he didn't have to say harvard- its degrading to the students at that institution, to bask in pride because you think you have outwitted them), says there is no God, because there is so much evil. The Gentleman implies that if there is no God,there cannot be a moral law to differ good/evil- but that is true, because there is so much bad in the world. So there is no God.
I dare this guy to sit in room with Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens without crying, the only reason this looks so intelligent is because the audience and everyone watching is bias, they're all creationists, no one will question him, put a few athiests in the crowd and this guy won't have such a good time. In conclusion, the only way to have a fair fight is if you debate against people who don't think the same as you, there is no point in debating against your own questions...
There is no cosmic or absolute morality which exists outside of the human mind. We associate the words wrong and evil with what we deem as socially reprehensible. We decide what is good and evil based on the amount of harm it does to other people. His argument was flawed from he start.
@mellowmark1 What do you do with a different social circle who doesn't share the same set of morals you do? Who's are correct? Who judges who's are correct? Who or what gives you authority to judge morals that you deem not up to par?
@mellowmark1 I was thinking just that, perhaps morality has evolved with us based on how our actions make other people feel. Murder makes the family of the deceased feel sad and therefore murdering is bad. Charity makes the recipients feel good therefore charity is good. We could ask about illegal fire sharing, we cannot consult the bible on the matter, but the conflict arises when people cannot agree on how they feel about it.
I have a question for him, How can you differentiate between Human intervention and Divine intervention in world events?
Honestly, I have no doubt this man is smart but it just feels like he is praying on stupid people with a strong intellectually sounding vocabulary. He say's very simple things with a complicated vocabulary so the average person that does not listen will hear all these words be like "oh my he sounds smart so he must be right!"
@MrHuggybear86 Ancient Greece did have as many philosophers as YouTube. What they lacked was a printing press or the internet. It's very hard to philosophize with a tablet and chisel.
Of all inventions present and future, I believe the internet will be the invention that unifies and solidifies the philosophical ideas prolific among human species.
Lol what's the bet half the audience didnt understand any of that....he's smart but I dont buy it. He's defining the debate according to the questions he himself has posed. Conveniant to say the least. His idea of morality outside social construction is half baked...morality is relative to the human experience, it changes depending on society, social position, religion, even gender...to say this requires a divine hand behind it to make right or wrong is just weak.
If I had a child screwing things up, I will not let him burn under my basement for all eternity... I would let him redeem himself even though the damage has been done... THAT IS LOVE.
Nah... I'm not buying this crap. Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. We are good because we are. We are bad because we are. Theists do good for a prize - heaven. Theists are just good because they think they need to, for salvation. Theists believe that whatever good a man do, if he does not believe in God, then he won't go to heaven. That's just pure BS.
My friend, I don't buy anything that you just said here with all due respect. We don't GAIN heaven, it is for one and all if they choose to accept it. If you think we need to be good for salvation, you are highly mistaken. Because of Christ love towards us all, His spirit is then imparted to us and we naturally do good. People can however believe that they do it and because of that, they are saved. The Bible calls that works and not the free gift
It's so typical to argue for religion by reducing science to chance and then calling that ridiculous. What's ridiculous is that grown men cannot understand the simple concept of evolution.
That is so SMART of God! He created Satan so that people can be lead into doing evil things like rape and murder... Then God self proclaims himself as the "good guy" and provides salvation... If you ask me, what God is doing is just as immoral as a man spreading a virus and then makes and sells the antivirus... God is the greatest SCAM ARTIST of all time...
@eldrinirdle God did create satan, but He didn't choose satan for us. God let us choose, and we chose satan. In my mindset, it is unfair for God to choose for us, or take away our choice, because that would be taking away our free will. Now THAT would be immoral. God bless.
@ShoelaceTemptation By creating us, god violated the wills of those who don't want to exist and be subjected to mortal pain yet are too afraid to end their existences. Do we even have free will in this deterministic universe?
@eldrinirdle So God created you so you could hate Him? He created you so you could choose to love or hate Him and/or others. Same with Satan. Should he only have created those that would love Him? Is that fair? To love is to choose my friend. If you can´t get your head around that, it´s because you don´t want to.
I think there should be a class that teaches logic and philosophy which you must pass with 100% before you can officially label yourself an Atheist, because until you understand how to argue a case and what it is you are arguing against, there is no way to hold fast a view which suggests that there is no possible realm through which a God can exist. I have never seen an Atheist use sound logical arguments against the spiritual realm and personal reality which gives theism sound basis for faith.
I like this point of view and I've haven't thought of things in this perspective before. We accept words, equations and structures as created knowledge because we know what the work of a human being looks like. There is sequence and knowledge in everything we know. How do we know DNA isn't like a created program file? What if life has templates that God uses to make variations in species. I know some atheist will laugh but no man has all the answers or complete understanding of everything.
1) I dont understand reasons for being, therefore there must be god who knows.
2) Evolution has NOTHING to do with chance, how ignorant of him! Of course the chance of something as complex coming together by RANDOM is so high....you just proved natural selection! Well done genius!
It is quite clear that every believer loves to bathe in ignorance. I dont think the audience was even listening before clapping.
1) Nope, he is saying that the existence of God becomes a necessity since naturalism cannot explain the spontaneous existence of matter (unless you can give any other example of anything else coming into existence out of nothing ... nahh, didn't think so)
2) Ignorance has more to do with your understanding of his statement. What are the chances of the first life form existing by chance? Essentially NO CHANCE. That is BEFORE life begins so it has nothing to do with natural selection.
@JJtheJester Naturalism dictates that pretty much everything came about naturally, not simply by chance or coming out of nothing. Speaking of which, things coming out of quite literally nothing instantaniously is exactly what the book of Genesis dictates, God just speaking and things popping up.
And the chances that chemicals, over time will produce organic material is slim, but only if you're going on chance, and not naturalistic explanations. Not everything is based on chance.
There is no moral law. You might have noticed that people have different moral views. None of them are "good" and none of them are "evil": The words good and evil are better defined as "Like me" and "Not like me".
F.ex You dont have my moral views, you are evil.
Both these videos are 10 min of fancy words that comes down to Bullshit.
@Jondadon2006 Instinct had nothing to do with Hitlers acts. I think you should do some research on evolution. WHat they tell you in church doesnt count.
"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race (like the Germanic race) should inter-mingle with an inferior (like the Jewish race).
Why? Because, in such a case her efforts, throughout hundreds and thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile."
My friend don't assume that I just hear from people and thats it. Whatever I am told, I examine for myself. For you to reply like that shows to be that you are hearing hearsay to say that Christians are just people who don't think. Listen to what Darwin has to say so you can see for yourself...
A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God, or of a future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones.
The Autobiography of Charles Darwin August 3, 1876
So if Hitler was wrong, then you don't believe in your own Evolutionary theory
@Jondadon2006 WHat formed Hitler into the man he became was his environment and his experiences, it had nothing to do with instintcs or evolution. All enterpretations of whats right and whats wrong are subjective and we pick them up from our environment. If YOU whould have grown up in hitlerjugend, you whould say "Deutschland Uber Alles", and there whouldnt be a single thing you could do about it.
I don't agree with that because at the end of the day, it still comes down to a choice. The same way a Muslim who was born and raised Muslim yet converts to another, shows that you theory is flawed.
You can't have subjective truth because if you put both environments together and they contradict, who is right and who is wrong? One has to be
Starting to observe an interesting trend with people who have moved toward Christ- After flirting with atheism and breathing in its hopeless theories they can't help but taste its weakness which of course begins with the idea that matter came first. I say we present their ( the atheists) theories - sort of promote it in a way - and let God do the rest. The bufoonery that matter is eternal should self expose the madness of atheism and atheistic evolution.
Sadly, for believers, no proof is required. For non believers, no proof is acceptable.
Ignorance is a disease which is destroying multitudes of people and they refuse to see it. Little do people realize that this is a race that has no prize for coming in second.
But wouldn't you say that is mind control in a sense to say that if you don't hate jews, you will be an outcast? Is there morality in that or do you have to hate them by force?
I can't answer the maybe example because it isn't really fact. But to mention on that, someone may think the other way. So it then comes up to subjective decision.
ok ill delete the comments up to the point where we understood. So I asked this:
"Ok so lets say that Hitler had a Son. He was raised up to hate and kill jews because they believed the Jewish race was stumbling block. Would that be ok?"
And you said
"In his eyes yes, in the eyes of others raised in the same context, yes in ours no"
Ok so my next question is would that be fair to be raised to hate and kill jews?
Ok so lets say that Hitler had a Son. He was raised up to hate and kill jews because they believed the Jewish race was stumbling block. Would that be ok?
This is not proof of any god at all. It's an argument from ignorance, mixed with Straw man arguments about every other philosophical or scientific position one could take. It's false dichotomy. As for the "4 fundamental questions" he asks, the are all either philosophical or subjective, and can't have only one answer by definition (except for origin, but he's looking at it from a religious standpoint, not a scientific point of view).
“If there is no moral law giver then there is no moral law. And if there is no moral law, then there is no evil, so what is your question? Bwhahahaha”…well if he is going to admit there is no moral law giver then the atheist wins anyway. The question only self destructs if atheism is true. Wait? god exists? Okay, so address the problem of evil then.
The problem of evil was placed in Jesus. In the Bible it says the gospel will go through all the world and then the end will come. God is loving and does not want anybody to be lost. Once that has gone through the world, the end of evil will be accomplished.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
Because Jesus died for our sins, we can be part of that perfect life where there is no evil
@Jondadon2006 If he doesn't want anyone lost then he could just get rid of hell. He is omnipotent isn’t he? He is the one that set up the heaven hell system in first place. Hell doesn’t have to exist for us to have free will.
I'll be frank. The problem is not that there is a hell but in what manner does the Bible speak of Hell.
If one reads the Bible, the Bible does not talk of burning people forever and ever or that there was a hell in the beginning. The word Hell in the original language mean death or the grave. Hell takes place at the last day where the resolution of Evil is forever dealt with.
Now sadly alot of people think hell is for bad sinners. This is what the Bible says about Hell........
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Satan was the originator of sin and because of that, He is doomed to judgement in Hell fire. The only REASON why people will suffer the same punishment as He, is not to do with God because God already sent His son to save you by taking your place in death. The reason why people will go with satan is because they CHOOSE to.
What some Christians seem to miss is the point that when the Bible talks of everlasting fire or eternal fire, they assume it means burning forever. The correct view is that the fire is everlasting which is to say it cannot be put out, it will do the job. The Bible also refers to it as unquenchable fire which goes with what I just said.
Example. The Bible said Sodom and Gomorrha was destroyed with everlasting fire. Are they burning today? No, they are completely burnt up. Unquenchable fire
I will send you a presentation on what Hell is from the Bible because to be honest, even a lot in Christianity not everything people teach comes from the Bible. This is why when it comes to studying, it should not be hearsay or letting someone do the studying for you. It should be based on me investigating for what is true.
@Jondadon2006 I wish I could take you word for it, but unfortunately every Christian gives their own view of what the bible means. Some say it is all symbolic, some say it is all literal. Some say hell is not real some say it is. They reference me to a video or the bible just as you are, saying the can prove their version is true. I have been referenced to parts of the bible that claim hell is real and has existed for years
"every Christian gives their own view of what the bible means."
Exactly but then so does evolutionist so I don't buy that. The difference is, what is truth and are you willing to search for it? Because everything I say is not my own views. When I give Bible studies, I let the people answer for themselves and read the passage for themselves.
@Jondadon2006 There is no solid version most Christians follow. My mother and roommate both don’t believe there is a hell. My friend believes in hell, but says atheists and gays don’t go to hell. Another friend believes the whole thing is symbolic including jesus. And my grandfather follows the bible to the letter, insisting everyone but a select few will burn. While my grandmother holds the belief hell is not literally fire like you suggest. Who do I trust?
@Jondadon2006 And another thing. A man claims he spent 23 minutes in hell and he saw people literally burring in fire. Apparently so have many other people who go through near death experiences. You are saying they are all false?
Yes I am. Why? Because the Bible says when you die, that it you die. Jesus said in the last days, don't be deceived for even the devil and show himself as an angel of light. The level of deception will be so high that if you are not founded in the word, you will believe things like this.
E.g. There is a man who is called Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda who says He is Jesus Christ. This man has MILLIONS of followers. Why? Because these people are not studying their Bibles.
@Jondadon2006 Usually if someone gives you a different version of evolution it is because they don’t understand it. Otherwise, any textbook or biologist will tell you the same thing.
Well this is what I studied. This is what Darwin says:
"A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God, or of a future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those IMPULSES and INSTINCTS which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones."
"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race (like the Germanic race) should inter-mingle with an inferior (like the Jewish race). Because, in such a case her efforts, throughout hundreds and thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile"
So based on his act, He was only living up to the title.
So the problem is that if we came from evolution, there is nothing to say what we do is wrong if evolution is a resort to do what you think is right. I might feel like killing you (even though I wouldn't) but that would mean I am allowed OR that my position is just as dangerous as Hitlers world view. Does that make sense what I said?
Thats right because who says what is right and wrong unless there is someone who is supreme who made a moral objective.
Based on the quote I sent you from Darwin, He said that only to follow those IMPULSES and INSTINCTS are the result if there is not a moral being who made morality. In other words, you are a god because you say what is good and what is not. And another person may say that may be true for you but not for me which is saying that your wrong and their right. Endless
@Jondadon2006 Morality and the idea of right and wrong are concepts of society. When you were a baby, did you know what was right and wrong automatically? No, you were taught by your parents and those around you. You hit the boy across the street, your mom punishes you and you LEARN that there are consequences for your actions in the here and now. There's no set right and wrong, you learn through experiences in life, i.e. through society.
@Jondadon2006 That's when society gets involved and he/she gets taught the hard way what the society sees as right and wrong. If one must be a part of that society, you must abide by their rules, and if you don't abide by their rules, you get punished. At home it may be a scolding or a spanking. In the society it'll be time in jail and fines. Either way, you're going to learn that there are consequences for your actions around other people, regardless who they are.
See there is my point again. Who came up with these moral? How do we know that killing is wrong for example? And it is not sound to say it came from years and years if evolution
@Jondadon2006 Not every society has the same morals as others. In some societies, it was required for deformed or disabled babies to be thrown off a cliff (Sparta) because they wouldn't be able to contribute to the militaristic community. Some societies perform female circumcision, while others denounce it as barbaric. If you look at other herding animals, you notice they watch out for each other; they try to contribute to the society, like lion prides for example.
@Jondadon2006 The only reason you and I know killing is wrong is because we were taught that way. We learned from the standards set around us, from the people's actions, and the reactions towards them. We aren't born knowing that killing is wrong. It's taught to us.
It's not sound to think "morals" came from evolution? As human evolution progressed, we gradually grew a larger brain, a higher thinking brain. We became dependent upon other members of our "social groups". con't
@Jondadon2006 con't Once dependence was set on the group, when one member would do something to hurt the society, like killing another member, it would be kicked out of the society, which is seen today in modern pack animals. What helped society was "good" and what hurt it was "bad". Simple as that.
So it pretty much comes down to what I was saying. It is based on subjective morals. There is no objective. So someone can come and kill your family which they believe is right and yet you would not think so. Who then would be right?
@Jondadon2006 To ME i would be right. To him, HE would be right. As we're both saying, it's all subjective. However, that subjective opinion is based on objectivity; what you see and how you were raised.
@Jondadon2006 No it's really not. Besides your mathematics example doesn't apply. Math is objective and absolute. God and morality are subjective and finite.
Anyways, when one person says they're right, it doesn't automatically mean the other person is wrong ESPECIALLY when we're talking of something that's subjective, and by definition subjectivity will ALWAYS contain some sort of bias. In this instance, it is what is viewed as right and wrong.
Actually is does apply because where did man get morality from? And why does one say this is good whilst the other says this isn't? It then becomes a true for you but not true for me approach which leaves one say you are wrong and I am right.
Was it right for Hitler to kill all those Jews because He believed them to be the weaker race? This step He followed was through Evolution. If you believe He was wrong, you are contradicting your own belief in Evolution
@Jondadon2006First things first, there's no such thing as a "belief" in evolution because it isn't a belief system. It's like saying you believe in gravity.
Hitler killed the Jews because he believed they were a weaker race yes, but this "social darwinism" bs has nothing to do with the scientific theory of evolution. Hitler was fueled by his religion, and time and time again he said that god was acting through him, and that he was acting in the name of his savior.
According to Evolution, it is about the survival of the fittest. If you read what Hitler says (and I would be glad to quote it if you request), He was only going on His instincts which is what Darwin says about the outcome of evolution. Therefore to say Hitler was wrong is to say you don't believe in evolution. If God was acting through Him yet He said HE followed His instincts, do you not know He is calling Himself God? The Bible does not say kill so He is following His own reason
@Jondadon2006 Evolutionary Theory is a biology term. So a guy took it out of context and went on his own mass murder spree... Sound familiar? Ever heard of the Crusades, or the Salem Witch Trials, possibly the Jesuits? THESE people thought they were doing God's work because they (supposedly) took the BIBLE out of contex.
We didn't get morality from anywhere because there's no such thing as morality. What we know is based off of what we've experienced in our lives. We aren't BORN knowing.
Firstly if anyone does anything and it is not measured to the Bible, they are not following the Bible period
Ok you say there is no morality. Lets say that you and I were born on an Island where there is no morality. Now after some time, you gathered food from the Island while I just did nothing. This took you about a month. Now lets say I hit you, took all your food and you were left with nothing. What would be your reaction?
@Jondadon2006 Notice i said "supposedly" took it out of context. The bible ordains both murder of non-believers as well as witches.
Well, since we would have grown up our entire lives with no education, no parental advice, no examples set, no communication, and overall none of the knowledge or experiences we've had thus far in our ACTUAL lives, I'd probably kill you because i wouldn't know any better, just as you wouldn't have known any better if you took it all away from me.
No the Bible does not ordain murder. If that was true, God would have gone against His own law. Murder is based on hate in your heart. Death penalty for example is not murder.
Thanks for that answer. It proves my point. What would cause you to kill me? Why not anything else? If we had no morals, why would you kill me and what is there to say I was wrong in what I did?
If that proves your point, that there is morality, then i wouldn't have killed you. I would've tried to "talk it out", and you wouldn't have taken my food.
i have 3 degrees in astronomy,physics an religion an i have come to the same conclusions as ravi.the main one for me is WHO decides what is good an what is bad or evil.society?man,people .no way we are all doers of bad things so there must be a moral law giver.GOD an the god of the bible jesus made it all.john 1.
MrBeefreetwo 4 days ago
@MrBeefreetwo I absolutely love seeing things like this: you with your degrees. I get a bit overwhelmed discussing Christ with evolutionists and atheist college students. They always assume their brains, filled with knowledge, contain the "proof" of either no God or the "proof" evolution. It is draining to witness to them. God bless.
n8ssavedbygrace 4 days ago
@MrBeefreetwo no i disagree. let me ask you a simple question. (i assume you re christian). you believe that there is one proper way to god and that only through god can we get our moral code, yes? since christianity and judaism have not existed for since the dawn of our time, how then did certain tribes and societies coexist without a path to god? and surely you cannot claim that all morality on earth stemmed from the judaism and christian religion because that is a fallacy.
GOOdGuyGreg1 1 day ago
I see the philosophy of atheism is crushed, Amen n Glory to God.
UnknownWarrior9000 6 days ago
Humans have created a sense of morality on their own, not through the grace of God, Without moralitys humans wouldn't have became as successful as we are now, and relying on God to give you the answer to that just plain and simply bullshit. If I was to say why do I think that a apple tastes nice, I wouldn't then say because of this is because of some God who has delievered this idea of that I like the apple. I would say that I, as a human have decieded that it like it, not God.
blaboob2012 1 week ago
@blaboob2012
Thats not a clear example because He has to ask, how did He have a tongue to taste if the apple is nice? There has to be a foundation otherwise it is just fact on theory
Jondadon2006 1 week ago
@blaboob2012
You think an apple tastes good because your body requires the sugars in the apple to survive.
This is why apples taste good to you and crap tastes good to dung beetles.
If we look at it from a purely biological/naturalistic point of view, morality is not always conducive to survival/the passing on of genes. It is best for me to rape someone's wife and leave her and her husband to raise my offspring. There is a species of bird that does something similar.
But why is this wrong?
AgApE010 1 week ago
This man is a genius!
greenketchup75 2 weeks ago
WOW! He is brilliant and logical.
n8ssavedbygrace 2 weeks ago
Ravi is amazing. I look forward to chatting with him and Paul in heaven when the time comes. Great minds.
felicianomiko 3 weeks ago
All such discussions are about people trying to win arguments or persuade one another -- somebody please PROVE something! Invoke the Deity, summon an angel, work a miracle, something -- talk is cheap!
SupernalOne 1 month ago
@SupernalOne if you cant see the proof in the logical arguments then you just might as well say you dont believe in the world around you which is the proof that you seek. answer me this have you ever seen the wind? you've seen it's effect but not the wind itself. and yet you see the tree move and know its the wind! tell me how you can make that assumption and still not believe in anything you can not see. once you admit that you believe in things unseen then its a short hop to God.
ajman21 1 month ago
statements without logic or basis? typical theism.
plarfusa 1 month ago
I understand the arguments by Lennox and Ravi against Atheism, but I don't see the jump from intelligent design to Christianity. Whats very frustrating is every where I look the focus is always on Atheism (science vs. religion - which is ridiculous), anyone who has taken higher level Maths and has a background in Physics can see the universe is a physical system with intelligent design behind it. I want to get past that and see why they are Christians. Does anyone know where I can read/watch?
lion575 2 months ago
@lion575 With an open mind, start reading a Bible. You will get your answers like the rest of them did.
ajbnzn 1 month ago
Why does morality need a law giver? This is not argued for.
How one knows what is moral is irrelevant, because it is a question of moral epistemology, not ontology.
nightvidcole 3 months ago
3:16 "Human intercourse demands the explanation of a moral reality"
XKylengX 3 months ago
RAVI! :) ftw!
mellymel51029 4 months ago
he is clever!!
marieb319 5 months ago
This white haired man has proved nothing. There is evidence, from NASA, that amino acids that are the building blocks of DNA and life are found in meteorites, that is fact, you can test it, anyone can come to the same conclusion...this man is selling religion and creationism, he's telling an audience what they want to hear, rather than affording real information to them. If he's claiming a creator made everything, then that creator had to be created as well...explain that?
JOHNINCOLUMBUS 5 months ago
@JOHNINCOLUMBUS if an amino acid is the building block of DNA can it be the building block to create life
reymosu 4 months ago
@reymosu
Yes. The type of amino acids that build living beings can only be found/do their work
in full-formed beings;plant to produce seeds, humans to have children etc. So
all had ancestors that started fully-formed.
rehzon 2 months ago
The problem with the "How do you know what is right is right?" is that there is no moral absolutes. As thunderf00t put quite well, if you were on an island with another person and there was only enough food for one, is it immoral to kill the other person to survive?
radiosurgery 5 months ago
@radiosurgery
I see what you mean but I guess it comes down to this question.
If that person who had no idea of knowing right and wrong were here in our country, would you allow them to do what they do and why should they be stopped? It's obvious that you would educate them on why killing is wrong. But then you need to ask if your moral standing is right or are their moral standard right. It results in an uncontrolled world unless there is one who oversees everything.
Jondadon2006 5 months ago
@Jondadon2006 Are you trying to say that the only reason you find it wrong to kill and/or eat people is because a diety oversees your life? Yes - moral standarts are tricky and yes - believing that a diety will judge you makes it easier but it is not THE ONLY way to tell if your moral standarts are correct. If you just teach it as a basic human moral it works fine without God.
bobivd6688 1 month ago
@bobivd6688
Well as yourself this question.
All the knowledge you knew before you were 15 years old, did you teach it yourself or did you learn from your parents?
Jondadon2006 1 month ago
@Jondadon2006 Of coure I learned it from my parents but I don't see how that's connected. Yes someone was overseeing my life (my parents) but not through any supernatural means obviously. Same way they were my moral compass until then now the entire human race is my moral compass. Not a diety.
bobivd6688 1 month ago
@bobivd6688
OK now the question is where did your parents get their knowledge from?
Jondadon2006 1 month ago
@Jondadon2006 From their parents and on and on.
bobivd6688 1 month ago
@bobivd6688
Ok so where is the foundation?
Jondadon2006 1 month ago
@Jondadon2006 In humanity, in evolution, in the building of a society. 5000 years ago people had a completely different moral standart. Why is that since God was there watching over us? In the dawn of mankind we had no moral code whatsoever and were closer to animals but little by little our intelligence evolved along with everything else. Moral and ethics are a human invention so to speak. And if God does oversee everything tell me this - which God is that exactly?
bobivd6688 1 month ago
@bobivd6688
hmmm so are you saying there is no foundation, just so happened to evolve?
Jondadon2006 1 month ago
@Jondadon2006 If you're talking about morals and ethics the foundation is the human mind. If you're talking about life itself I don't know what the exact foundation is and neither does any human who has ever lived. Some decide to say that they don't know yet and maybe continue searching for the answer, others say they know everything because the Bible or some other superstition told them. I just believe everything is natural, even the things we don't know yet and not supernatural.
bobivd6688 1 month ago
@bobivd6688
"Some decide to say that they don't know yet and maybe continue searching for the answer, others say they know everything because the Bible or some other superstition told them."
Well how can it be said that the Bible is superstitious if there is no foundation on your side?
Jondadon2006 1 month ago
...In order for it to be superstitious, it means you have something which is not superstitious, but yet you said you believe everything is natural.
So if I am able to show you proof, would you be open enough to want to know?
Jondadon2006 1 month ago
@Jondadon2006 Absolutely. Undoubtedly. If there was measurable, demonstrable proof of a diety's manifestation I would be happy to view it. Although I find it funny to try and use a scientific method to prove God when the main argument that I can't use one to disprove Him (it?) is that it's not "science's place". I hear arguments like "Religion and faith are not measurable and demonstrable by any science" yet if scientific proof of God was found would anyone still be saying that?
bobivd6688 1 month ago
@bobivd6688
Ok now the best way we can know of the proof that there is a God is to ask Him himself about the proof He has. Now according to His word, He has put forth proof and also a challenge separating Himself as the only true God. The proof He has given, undeniable proof, I want you to have a listen to a presentation I did personally showing how it could not be chance.
Let me know what you understood from it. I have sent it to your inbox
Jondadon2006 1 month ago
@Jondadon2006
I can only imagine the horrifying inappropriateness of your "proof". A feeling? The fact that there's something rather than nothing, and that leads you, somehow, to a magical sky daddy? Morals exist, therefore, magical sky daddy? Baby kittens, therefore, magical sky daddy? Please, please... don't tell me. I really don't want to know.
Your "proof" is surely at half as pathetic and fake as this fools' in the video.
Ryakki 1 month ago
@Ryakki I advise you to step out of your box and actually meet people in real life that go to church. In the reality of things, God's influence and the faith people have in Jesus has changed multitudes and multitudes of people. Follow the Hollywood brainwashing agenda and you'll see anything that associates with religion somehow is evil. I'd rather see it in real life then follow a metal box of wires connected to an agenda meant to dilute the truth and society while possessing your mind.
PuertoRicanTakeOva 1 month ago
@Ryakki Do not run from the full argument. Do not shorten it to something you are able to reject. That is not honesty.
CJFCarlsson 1 week ago
@Ryakki ."This fool"? Is that what you really think of Ravi? Would you like to compare your IQ and earned degrees to his? Or perhaps you would like to debate him regarding the reality of a supreme being who we call God? Agnostic and atheist scholars at prominent universities such as Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, etc who have debated him would advise you not to try it. None of them share his belief in the God of the bible, but they all have a high regard for his intellectual prowess.
minralb 1 week ago
@radiosurgery Wow. I'm speechless that if I was on an island starving I would still need to be told eating someone is wrong. So it's only a moral absolute if I believe in God? Or because someone told me to do it? Really?
crodrigo 5 months ago
@crodrigo
My friend please listen to what I am saying because you missed the point. If that person were to live where you are, why would you say to Him that killing is wrong? Let me put it this way.
That same person killed your family member because He was cold and your family member was wearing a very warm coat. Why would you want justice over that person even if they said it is because they were cold?
Jondadon2006 5 months ago
@Jondadon2006 The second hypothetical you give is a little bit more tenuous. Mostly because your conflating two issues: morality and justice. It's more difficult to answer. As an attorney, our profession does all it can to eliminate morality from criminal conduct. You're not charged with a crime against morality. It is a crime against the state. I'm don't follow a code of ethical conduct (previously called Canons of Ethical Conduct) but a code of professional responsibility. Pleasure to talk.
crodrigo 5 months ago
epicness. God truly has inspired Ravi to help this world. I hope he proves the whole world wrong. Thank you Ravi!
filmjunkie998 5 months ago
@radiosurgery But if there are no moral absolutes, then why do atheists ask the question in the first place?
happyhomemaker1995 4 months ago
@happyhomemaker1995 Because theists claim there are absolutes, so we question their claims. Easy enough to understand, isn't it?
feuchster 4 months ago
@radiosurgery The answer is simple, if you were a murderer you would kill the other person and survive for a short time on the small amount of food that was there and then die yourself. If you were not a murderer you would share the food and die together and die without being a murderer. Either way, you die, and in the end we will be judged by our decisions and it would be better at judgment to not have murdered. It would be immoral to kill the other person.
MTLministries 3 months ago
@radiosurgery oh my... i'm sure it is easy enough to type and theorize over these moral situations, but if someone raped, skinned and ate your wife and children and said there was no reason for his actions other than it was his right to do so... you'd have a different opinion that morality is objective my friend.
SenseiGrove 3 months ago
@radiosurgery yes
kloxre 3 months ago
@radiosurgery If you don't know, the Bible instructs the Christian to pray about it. Because we are in the Laodicean age of the Church (represented as the Bride of Christ) which means it's the New Testament after the martyrdom of Jesus Christ which consquently means we have the Holy Ghost at our disposal which gives us authority over the demonic, prophetic visions, tongues, Godly wisdom, Godly knowledge, and a God that loves YOU whether you just to accept that or not.
killerproctologist88 2 months ago
@radiosurgery YES
mjc1024 2 months ago
@radiosurgery what happens after you kill the person to survive? how much longer will that body sustain you? finally, do you think a human life has more worth than maybe a weeks worth of food consumption?
33sjoyfuldisciple 2 months ago
he is wrong there is more atoms than 1 and 40000 zeros behind in universe
actually this many atoms is about in 10370 humans (70 kg)
that means human protein is quite probable
listvanek 5 months ago
There is moral law because you do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. Not because some absentee landlord told me to do so or because of some reward in the sky.
crodrigo 5 months ago
@crodrigo
But how do you know what is right, is right?
Jondadon2006 5 months ago
@Jondadon2006
You know what is right based on your personal wants and needs. Your emotions at the time. You know if you are thirsty because your body needs water to function and possesses instinctual desire for the substance.
You know slavery is wrong because legalizing it would ensure future slavery and death of you or your offspring (your genetic material).
Karma.
Hategrin 3 months ago
@Hategrin
So if there I have a desire for there to be peace, love, harmony, no suffering, if I have that genetically, and I believe this for every single person on this Earth wanting such qualities, there must be a place that fulfills all these desires.
Jesus Christ (Not Karma)
Jondadon2006 2 months ago
Only god is big enough to explain this universe and answer some arbitrary questions - that is just saying "I can't explain, but am lost without an explanation, thus I need to invent stuff, otherwise I'd go nuts"
wladwlad 5 months ago
good and evil are human perceptions. They arn't real outside of the human mind. Much like god.
SuLLyZorZ 5 months ago
If we had not evolved morals and culture we would have become extinct.Think how you would build a house,no problem.then you want to build it a bit higher but cant reach so you use scaffolding.Its the same with our cells and skeletons.Our bones are but scaffolding supporting our bodies,so our brains can keep evolving.When our skin is joined in the womb it leaves a mark in everybody,its right under our nose,Apart from people withe cleft palates and lips
bonesandanne 6 months ago
Hang on, so God is the answer to all four ultimate questions, one of which is morality. The student at Harvard (he didn't have to say harvard- its degrading to the students at that institution, to bask in pride because you think you have outwitted them), says there is no God, because there is so much evil. The Gentleman implies that if there is no God,there cannot be a moral law to differ good/evil- but that is true, because there is so much bad in the world. So there is no God.
Sonneybouy 6 months ago
@Sonneybouy
But you have just flipped the point back on yourself because with evil cannot survive without good.
What is the opposite of evil? Good. If evil was evil on its own, we would have no answer to good which would make evil, not evil
Jondadon2006 6 months ago
I dare this guy to sit in room with Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens without crying, the only reason this looks so intelligent is because the audience and everyone watching is bias, they're all creationists, no one will question him, put a few athiests in the crowd and this guy won't have such a good time. In conclusion, the only way to have a fair fight is if you debate against people who don't think the same as you, there is no point in debating against your own questions...
dagurbezisinthemalof 6 months ago
There is no cosmic or absolute morality which exists outside of the human mind. We associate the words wrong and evil with what we deem as socially reprehensible. We decide what is good and evil based on the amount of harm it does to other people. His argument was flawed from he start.
mellowmark1 6 months ago
@mellowmark1 What do you do with a different social circle who doesn't share the same set of morals you do? Who's are correct? Who judges who's are correct? Who or what gives you authority to judge morals that you deem not up to par?
v33punk 6 months ago
@mellowmark1 I was thinking just that, perhaps morality has evolved with us based on how our actions make other people feel. Murder makes the family of the deceased feel sad and therefore murdering is bad. Charity makes the recipients feel good therefore charity is good. We could ask about illegal fire sharing, we cannot consult the bible on the matter, but the conflict arises when people cannot agree on how they feel about it.
Sonneybouy 6 months ago
I have a question for him, How can you differentiate between Human intervention and Divine intervention in world events?
Honestly, I have no doubt this man is smart but it just feels like he is praying on stupid people with a strong intellectually sounding vocabulary. He say's very simple things with a complicated vocabulary so the average person that does not listen will hear all these words be like "oh my he sounds smart so he must be right!"
SSasskicker 7 months ago
If only ancient Greece had as many philosophers as youtube; imagine the differences we would have today.
MrHuggybear86 8 months ago
@MrHuggybear86 Ancient Greece did have as many philosophers as YouTube. What they lacked was a printing press or the internet. It's very hard to philosophize with a tablet and chisel.
Of all inventions present and future, I believe the internet will be the invention that unifies and solidifies the philosophical ideas prolific among human species.
...and shit.
pburto 8 months ago
@MrHuggybear86 Imagine if they used YouTube to teach science !
gregrutz 7 months ago
Lol what's the bet half the audience didnt understand any of that....he's smart but I dont buy it. He's defining the debate according to the questions he himself has posed. Conveniant to say the least. His idea of morality outside social construction is half baked...morality is relative to the human experience, it changes depending on society, social position, religion, even gender...to say this requires a divine hand behind it to make right or wrong is just weak.
AttilatheMike 8 months ago
@AttilatheMike
He is not just using His own questions, He is going at the foundation of the question.
It is like asking:
'Will I put you in jail yes or no?'
What He has done is asked His question which relates to the foundation which is simply this:
'What have you done?' What I have told you what you have done, the answer can then be yes or no
Jondadon2006 8 months ago
If I had a child screwing things up, I will not let him burn under my basement for all eternity... I would let him redeem himself even though the damage has been done... THAT IS LOVE.
eldrinirdle 8 months ago
@eldrinirdle
So the question is this. Who said that people will burn forever and ever?
Jondadon2006 8 months ago
Nah... I'm not buying this crap. Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. We are good because we are. We are bad because we are. Theists do good for a prize - heaven. Theists are just good because they think they need to, for salvation. Theists believe that whatever good a man do, if he does not believe in God, then he won't go to heaven. That's just pure BS.
eldrinirdle 8 months ago
@eldrinirdle
My friend, I don't buy anything that you just said here with all due respect. We don't GAIN heaven, it is for one and all if they choose to accept it. If you think we need to be good for salvation, you are highly mistaken. Because of Christ love towards us all, His spirit is then imparted to us and we naturally do good. People can however believe that they do it and because of that, they are saved. The Bible calls that works and not the free gift
Jondadon2006 8 months ago
"The physical quantity cannot explain itself" is a hasty generalizing fallacy.
Just because its not practical, 1 in a large number doesn't matter, all you need is one.
Rinyotsu 8 months ago
It's so typical to argue for religion by reducing science to chance and then calling that ridiculous. What's ridiculous is that grown men cannot understand the simple concept of evolution.
TamaThePeck 9 months ago
That is so SMART of God! He created Satan so that people can be lead into doing evil things like rape and murder... Then God self proclaims himself as the "good guy" and provides salvation... If you ask me, what God is doing is just as immoral as a man spreading a virus and then makes and sells the antivirus... God is the greatest SCAM ARTIST of all time...
eldrinirdle 9 months ago
@eldrinirdle
I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion my friend.
Do you even know what happened in the beginning?
Jondadon2006 9 months ago
@Jondadon2006
i was thinking the same thing. they always tell US to do our research lol
Metallica102938 8 months ago
@eldrinirdle God did create satan, but He didn't choose satan for us. God let us choose, and we chose satan. In my mindset, it is unfair for God to choose for us, or take away our choice, because that would be taking away our free will. Now THAT would be immoral. God bless.
ShoelaceTemptation 9 months ago
@ShoelaceTemptation By creating us, god violated the wills of those who don't want to exist and be subjected to mortal pain yet are too afraid to end their existences. Do we even have free will in this deterministic universe?
swisscheesepotatochi 8 months ago
@eldrinirdle
God gives us a choice.
We are not puppets.
The Creator can not be subject by His Created Beings, as they are under His authority
God Bless and Keep you my Friend
bkeay100 9 months ago
@eldrinirdle So God created you so you could hate Him? He created you so you could choose to love or hate Him and/or others. Same with Satan. Should he only have created those that would love Him? Is that fair? To love is to choose my friend. If you can´t get your head around that, it´s because you don´t want to.
EdjeBos 8 months ago
I think there should be a class that teaches logic and philosophy which you must pass with 100% before you can officially label yourself an Atheist, because until you understand how to argue a case and what it is you are arguing against, there is no way to hold fast a view which suggests that there is no possible realm through which a God can exist. I have never seen an Atheist use sound logical arguments against the spiritual realm and personal reality which gives theism sound basis for faith.
TruthSeekingOne 9 months ago
damned evolutionists watch?v=7A6qtrDGiXI
uknowispeaksense 9 months ago
I like this point of view and I've haven't thought of things in this perspective before. We accept words, equations and structures as created knowledge because we know what the work of a human being looks like. There is sequence and knowledge in everything we know. How do we know DNA isn't like a created program file? What if life has templates that God uses to make variations in species. I know some atheist will laugh but no man has all the answers or complete understanding of everything.
Ryder1981 9 months ago
THIS is the best reply to atheism???
This is his argument:
1) I dont understand reasons for being, therefore there must be god who knows.
2) Evolution has NOTHING to do with chance, how ignorant of him! Of course the chance of something as complex coming together by RANDOM is so high....you just proved natural selection! Well done genius!
It is quite clear that every believer loves to bathe in ignorance. I dont think the audience was even listening before clapping.
thecoolermonkey 11 months ago
1) Nope, he is saying that the existence of God becomes a necessity since naturalism cannot explain the spontaneous existence of matter (unless you can give any other example of anything else coming into existence out of nothing ... nahh, didn't think so)
2) Ignorance has more to do with your understanding of his statement. What are the chances of the first life form existing by chance? Essentially NO CHANCE. That is BEFORE life begins so it has nothing to do with natural selection.
JJtheJester 10 months ago
@JJtheJester Naturalism dictates that pretty much everything came about naturally, not simply by chance or coming out of nothing. Speaking of which, things coming out of quite literally nothing instantaniously is exactly what the book of Genesis dictates, God just speaking and things popping up.
And the chances that chemicals, over time will produce organic material is slim, but only if you're going on chance, and not naturalistic explanations. Not everything is based on chance.
crazyinsane500 9 months ago
lol @ what is your question! lol...
princessliz15 1 year ago
@Roper122
Check out His biography. It is surprising
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 ..who's biography? Ravi's or Hitlers?
Because I'm familiar with both, and neither helps your case.
Roper122 1 year ago
@Roper122
Hitlers
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
There is no moral law. You might have noticed that people have different moral views. None of them are "good" and none of them are "evil": The words good and evil are better defined as "Like me" and "Not like me".
F.ex You dont have my moral views, you are evil.
Both these videos are 10 min of fancy words that comes down to Bullshit.
ztawiz 1 year ago
@ztawiz
So Hitler is justified then
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 What do you mean by justified?
ztawiz 1 year ago
@ztawiz
It means to be made right or to be innocent
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Hitler is obviously not innocent of the things he did, so whats your question?
ztawiz 1 year ago
@ztawiz
He did what he did based on instincts which is what Darwin says is the result so He should be right according to the Atheist faith
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Instinct had nothing to do with Hitlers acts. I think you should do some research on evolution. WHat they tell you in church doesnt count.
ztawiz 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006
"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race (like the Germanic race) should inter-mingle with an inferior (like the Jewish race).
Why? Because, in such a case her efforts, throughout hundreds and thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile."
Adolf Hitler, in Norman Geisler, Wretched Refuse
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
...
My friend don't assume that I just hear from people and thats it. Whatever I am told, I examine for myself. For you to reply like that shows to be that you are hearing hearsay to say that Christians are just people who don't think. Listen to what Darwin has to say so you can see for yourself...
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
...
A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God, or of a future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those impulses and instincts which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones.
The Autobiography of Charles Darwin August 3, 1876
So if Hitler was wrong, then you don't believe in your own Evolutionary theory
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 WHat formed Hitler into the man he became was his environment and his experiences, it had nothing to do with instintcs or evolution. All enterpretations of whats right and whats wrong are subjective and we pick them up from our environment. If YOU whould have grown up in hitlerjugend, you whould say "Deutschland Uber Alles", and there whouldnt be a single thing you could do about it.
ztawiz 1 year ago
@ztawiz
I don't agree with that because at the end of the day, it still comes down to a choice. The same way a Muslim who was born and raised Muslim yet converts to another, shows that you theory is flawed.
You can't have subjective truth because if you put both environments together and they contradict, who is right and who is wrong? One has to be
Once again look at what Hitler says
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
Hahaha I like this crazy character. :]
64bitWar 1 year ago
Starting to observe an interesting trend with people who have moved toward Christ- After flirting with atheism and breathing in its hopeless theories they can't help but taste its weakness which of course begins with the idea that matter came first. I say we present their ( the atheists) theories - sort of promote it in a way - and let God do the rest. The bufoonery that matter is eternal should self expose the madness of atheism and atheistic evolution.
whiteliketar 1 year ago
Whats so impossible about Man being the moral law giver? He completely forgoes that possibility. Implications about that aside, its not impossible.
achilleshoplite 1 year ago
@achilleshoplite
The impossiblilty about man being the moral giver is basically, who do we follow? One says this and one says that so who do we follow
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@achilleshoplite The point is, if that were true, our morality would be chaos. Listen to Ravi's podcast, it's truly interesting.
GuitarGuy22221 1 year ago
Sadly, for believers, no proof is required. For non believers, no proof is acceptable.
Ignorance is a disease which is destroying multitudes of people and they refuse to see it. Little do people realize that this is a race that has no prize for coming in second.
mysticgatekeeper 1 year ago
"sorry what does inegable mean?"
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@DrakillT
But wouldn't you say that is mind control in a sense to say that if you don't hate jews, you will be an outcast? Is there morality in that or do you have to hate them by force?
I can't answer the maybe example because it isn't really fact. But to mention on that, someone may think the other way. So it then comes up to subjective decision.
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@DrakillT
Oh im abit confused lol
ok ill delete the comments up to the point where we understood. So I asked this:
"Ok so lets say that Hitler had a Son. He was raised up to hate and kill jews because they believed the Jewish race was stumbling block. Would that be ok?"
And you said
"In his eyes yes, in the eyes of others raised in the same context, yes in ours no"
Ok so my next question is would that be fair to be raised to hate and kill jews?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@DrakillT
Ok so lets say that Hitler had a Son. He was raised up to hate and kill jews because they believed the Jewish race was stumbling block. Would that be ok?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@DrakillT
So it only depends on where you are?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@DrakillT
Sorry I don't understand that example. What are the points you are bringing out?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@DrakillT
The moral law giver has to be God because He gave the moral law. the 10 commandments.
If the moral law giver was society, it would not be moral but subjective which means anything goes
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
This is not proof of any god at all. It's an argument from ignorance, mixed with Straw man arguments about every other philosophical or scientific position one could take. It's false dichotomy. As for the "4 fundamental questions" he asks, the are all either philosophical or subjective, and can't have only one answer by definition (except for origin, but he's looking at it from a religious standpoint, not a scientific point of view).
marsjacobvolta 1 year ago
“If there is no moral law giver then there is no moral law. And if there is no moral law, then there is no evil, so what is your question? Bwhahahaha”…well if he is going to admit there is no moral law giver then the atheist wins anyway. The question only self destructs if atheism is true. Wait? god exists? Okay, so address the problem of evil then.
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
The problem of evil was placed in Jesus. In the Bible it says the gospel will go through all the world and then the end will come. God is loving and does not want anybody to be lost. Once that has gone through the world, the end of evil will be accomplished.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
Because Jesus died for our sins, we can be part of that perfect life where there is no evil
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 If he doesn't want anyone lost then he could just get rid of hell. He is omnipotent isn’t he? He is the one that set up the heaven hell system in first place. Hell doesn’t have to exist for us to have free will.
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
Wait a minute...
Who said there is a hell right now?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Christians?...you believe there is one some I’m addressing the problem unlike Ravi?
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
I'll be frank. The problem is not that there is a hell but in what manner does the Bible speak of Hell.
If one reads the Bible, the Bible does not talk of burning people forever and ever or that there was a hell in the beginning. The word Hell in the original language mean death or the grave. Hell takes place at the last day where the resolution of Evil is forever dealt with.
Now sadly alot of people think hell is for bad sinners. This is what the Bible says about Hell........
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
...............
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Satan was the originator of sin and because of that, He is doomed to judgement in Hell fire. The only REASON why people will suffer the same punishment as He, is not to do with God because God already sent His son to save you by taking your place in death. The reason why people will go with satan is because they CHOOSE to.
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
What some Christians seem to miss is the point that when the Bible talks of everlasting fire or eternal fire, they assume it means burning forever. The correct view is that the fire is everlasting which is to say it cannot be put out, it will do the job. The Bible also refers to it as unquenchable fire which goes with what I just said.
Example. The Bible said Sodom and Gomorrha was destroyed with everlasting fire. Are they burning today? No, they are completely burnt up. Unquenchable fire
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006
I will send you a presentation on what Hell is from the Bible because to be honest, even a lot in Christianity not everything people teach comes from the Bible. This is why when it comes to studying, it should not be hearsay or letting someone do the studying for you. It should be based on me investigating for what is true.
Hope this makes sense
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 I wish I could take you word for it, but unfortunately every Christian gives their own view of what the bible means. Some say it is all symbolic, some say it is all literal. Some say hell is not real some say it is. They reference me to a video or the bible just as you are, saying the can prove their version is true. I have been referenced to parts of the bible that claim hell is real and has existed for years
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
"every Christian gives their own view of what the bible means."
Exactly but then so does evolutionist so I don't buy that. The difference is, what is truth and are you willing to search for it? Because everything I say is not my own views. When I give Bible studies, I let the people answer for themselves and read the passage for themselves.
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 There is no solid version most Christians follow. My mother and roommate both don’t believe there is a hell. My friend believes in hell, but says atheists and gays don’t go to hell. Another friend believes the whole thing is symbolic including jesus. And my grandfather follows the bible to the letter, insisting everyone but a select few will burn. While my grandmother holds the belief hell is not literally fire like you suggest. Who do I trust?
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
Most christians follow yes I agree. Why? Because they do not follow the Bible as it is to the full. Some pick and choose.
The person you trust is God who reveals the truth in His word and not having man do your thinking
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 And another thing. A man claims he spent 23 minutes in hell and he saw people literally burring in fire. Apparently so have many other people who go through near death experiences. You are saying they are all false?
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
Yes I am. Why? Because the Bible says when you die, that it you die. Jesus said in the last days, don't be deceived for even the devil and show himself as an angel of light. The level of deception will be so high that if you are not founded in the word, you will believe things like this.
E.g. There is a man who is called Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda who says He is Jesus Christ. This man has MILLIONS of followers. Why? Because these people are not studying their Bibles.
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Usually if someone gives you a different version of evolution it is because they don’t understand it. Otherwise, any textbook or biologist will tell you the same thing.
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
Well this is what I studied. This is what Darwin says:
"A man who has no assured and ever present belief in the existence of a personal God, or of a future existence with retribution and reward, can have for his rule of life, as far as I can see, only to follow those IMPULSES and INSTINCTS which are the strongest or which seem to him the best ones."
Now this is what Hitler says:
........
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
........
"If nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race (like the Germanic race) should inter-mingle with an inferior (like the Jewish race). Because, in such a case her efforts, throughout hundreds and thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile"
So based on his act, He was only living up to the title.
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
So the problem is that if we came from evolution, there is nothing to say what we do is wrong if evolution is a resort to do what you think is right. I might feel like killing you (even though I wouldn't) but that would mean I am allowed OR that my position is just as dangerous as Hitlers world view. Does that make sense what I said?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Sorry I'm confused...are you saying there are no objective moral values if evolution occurred?
atheist976 1 year ago
@atheist976
Thats right because who says what is right and wrong unless there is someone who is supreme who made a moral objective.
Based on the quote I sent you from Darwin, He said that only to follow those IMPULSES and INSTINCTS are the result if there is not a moral being who made morality. In other words, you are a god because you say what is good and what is not. And another person may say that may be true for you but not for me which is saying that your wrong and their right. Endless
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Morality and the idea of right and wrong are concepts of society. When you were a baby, did you know what was right and wrong automatically? No, you were taught by your parents and those around you. You hit the boy across the street, your mom punishes you and you LEARN that there are consequences for your actions in the here and now. There's no set right and wrong, you learn through experiences in life, i.e. through society.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
Ok think of it this way. Someone is taught the opposite that you have to kill people and beat them down to get where you need to be.
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 That's when society gets involved and he/she gets taught the hard way what the society sees as right and wrong. If one must be a part of that society, you must abide by their rules, and if you don't abide by their rules, you get punished. At home it may be a scolding or a spanking. In the society it'll be time in jail and fines. Either way, you're going to learn that there are consequences for your actions around other people, regardless who they are.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
See there is my point again. Who came up with these moral? How do we know that killing is wrong for example? And it is not sound to say it came from years and years if evolution
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Not every society has the same morals as others. In some societies, it was required for deformed or disabled babies to be thrown off a cliff (Sparta) because they wouldn't be able to contribute to the militaristic community. Some societies perform female circumcision, while others denounce it as barbaric. If you look at other herding animals, you notice they watch out for each other; they try to contribute to the society, like lion prides for example.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 The only reason you and I know killing is wrong is because we were taught that way. We learned from the standards set around us, from the people's actions, and the reactions towards them. We aren't born knowing that killing is wrong. It's taught to us.
It's not sound to think "morals" came from evolution? As human evolution progressed, we gradually grew a larger brain, a higher thinking brain. We became dependent upon other members of our "social groups". con't
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 con't Once dependence was set on the group, when one member would do something to hurt the society, like killing another member, it would be kicked out of the society, which is seen today in modern pack animals. What helped society was "good" and what hurt it was "bad". Simple as that.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
So it pretty much comes down to what I was saying. It is based on subjective morals. There is no objective. So someone can come and kill your family which they believe is right and yet you would not think so. Who then would be right?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 To ME i would be right. To him, HE would be right. As we're both saying, it's all subjective. However, that subjective opinion is based on objectivity; what you see and how you were raised.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
By saying your right but not to me is basically saying the other is wrong. 1+1 cannot equal 2 and 3
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 No it's really not. Besides your mathematics example doesn't apply. Math is objective and absolute. God and morality are subjective and finite.
Anyways, when one person says they're right, it doesn't automatically mean the other person is wrong ESPECIALLY when we're talking of something that's subjective, and by definition subjectivity will ALWAYS contain some sort of bias. In this instance, it is what is viewed as right and wrong.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
Actually is does apply because where did man get morality from? And why does one say this is good whilst the other says this isn't? It then becomes a true for you but not true for me approach which leaves one say you are wrong and I am right.
Was it right for Hitler to kill all those Jews because He believed them to be the weaker race? This step He followed was through Evolution. If you believe He was wrong, you are contradicting your own belief in Evolution
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006First things first, there's no such thing as a "belief" in evolution because it isn't a belief system. It's like saying you believe in gravity.
Hitler killed the Jews because he believed they were a weaker race yes, but this "social darwinism" bs has nothing to do with the scientific theory of evolution. Hitler was fueled by his religion, and time and time again he said that god was acting through him, and that he was acting in the name of his savior.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
According to Evolution, it is about the survival of the fittest. If you read what Hitler says (and I would be glad to quote it if you request), He was only going on His instincts which is what Darwin says about the outcome of evolution. Therefore to say Hitler was wrong is to say you don't believe in evolution. If God was acting through Him yet He said HE followed His instincts, do you not know He is calling Himself God? The Bible does not say kill so He is following His own reason
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Evolutionary Theory is a biology term. So a guy took it out of context and went on his own mass murder spree... Sound familiar? Ever heard of the Crusades, or the Salem Witch Trials, possibly the Jesuits? THESE people thought they were doing God's work because they (supposedly) took the BIBLE out of contex.
We didn't get morality from anywhere because there's no such thing as morality. What we know is based off of what we've experienced in our lives. We aren't BORN knowing.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
Firstly if anyone does anything and it is not measured to the Bible, they are not following the Bible period
Ok you say there is no morality. Lets say that you and I were born on an Island where there is no morality. Now after some time, you gathered food from the Island while I just did nothing. This took you about a month. Now lets say I hit you, took all your food and you were left with nothing. What would be your reaction?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Notice i said "supposedly" took it out of context. The bible ordains both murder of non-believers as well as witches.
Well, since we would have grown up our entire lives with no education, no parental advice, no examples set, no communication, and overall none of the knowledge or experiences we've had thus far in our ACTUAL lives, I'd probably kill you because i wouldn't know any better, just as you wouldn't have known any better if you took it all away from me.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
Sorry I didn't see the supposedly.
No the Bible does not ordain murder. If that was true, God would have gone against His own law. Murder is based on hate in your heart. Death penalty for example is not murder.
Thanks for that answer. It proves my point. What would cause you to kill me? Why not anything else? If we had no morals, why would you kill me and what is there to say I was wrong in what I did?
Jondadon2006 1 year ago
@Jondadon2006 Murder: Exodus 2:12, Judges 9:5, 11:29-39, 14:19, 2nd Samuel 18:15, 1st Kings 2:24-25, 29-34 and 46, 9:27, 10:7, 2nd Chronicles 21:4, and Ezekiel 20:26
Genocide: Genesis 6:11-17, 7:11-24, Exodus 17:13, 32:27, Numbers 21:3, 35, Deuteronomy 2:33-34, 3:6, 7:2, 20:16, Joshua 8:22-25, 10:27-40, 11:8-23, and 1st Samuel 15:3, 7
If that proves your point, that there is morality, then i wouldn't have killed you. I would've tried to "talk it out", and you wouldn't have taken my food.
LucasI3434 1 year ago
@LucasI3434
Are you one of those people who