In the past, and based on GM's claims, we've gone so far as to call the Volt GM's "Jesus Car." And why wouldn't we call it that? We were told the Volt would achieve 230 MPG fuel economy and would always use the electric drivetrain to motivate the wheels .
To be viable, these things have to be charged in MINUTES, not DAYS. In the Northwest, there's not enough sunlight to make solar practical year 'round. And you need to make a convincing case for cost for the everyman. You haven't. Electricity, battery replacement, and initial purchase ALL make EVs expensive curiosities for the near future.
Tesla, Mitsubishi iMiEV, Subaru Stellas, Chevy Volt, and 2012 Toyota Plug-In Prius will all use Lithium batteries. Looks like they are all making the same choice as GM. The iMiEV and Stella will actually be on the streets at the end of this month, and Tesla has been on the road for a while. It appears that most of the companies pushing EVs forward are going with Lithium. There must be a reason.
The reason is that Chevron owns control of the NiMH patents, and has forbidden use of them in "certain transportation applications" that stops plug-in cars. Chevron's unit sued Toyota, which paid $30 million and ceased production of NiMH in 2002.
Ah oil-shills, never let the facts get in the way of a good non-argument. Yes Li-on is more powerful, its also more $, the supply sit. is uncertain, and shorter life-cycle and poss. safety issues. One thing i'd like the oil shills to explain to me, where can I order a large-format Nimh myself and convert my (parked) ice to a BEV? Unlike gm or Toyota, im not waiting for Lion perfection, I would be quite happy with, good enough, which the volt sure as hell is not
Actually, GM could launch the first version of the VOLT with lead-acid, if it were serious; the 1997 and 1999 EV1 went over 100 miles on a charge using PSB lead batteries. Just put out the VOLT with 10 miles all-electric range, to start!!
Great idea, use a 10 year old technology and reduce the range of the car, while other companies are actually using Lithium technology. The goal should be to put out the volt and continue to work to reduce costs and improve Lithium batteries, not to go backwards. That's how almost all advancements are made, think TVs. You put out an expensive introduction to the technology, and eventually it gets better and cheaper, and available to everyone.
Ok, but there is a reason they started with lead acid and DON'T USE IT ANYMORE. Just as GM started with Lead Acid in the EV1 and have MOVED into Lithium. If GM is headed for failure because of its battery choice, then so is Mitsubishi, Tesla, Subaru, and Toyota. You said it yourself, Tesla started with lead-acid and later UPGRADED.
Limited now, but the technology will get better. But EVs are limited right now anyway, because batteries are expensive, and gas is cheap. My choice would be the batteries which have the most potential for improvements. Right now that's probably lithium. Hopefully the Volt is the first of many mainstream EVs. They are already working on the 2nd and 3rd generations to make them better. That's good news for everyone.
There is too much controversy surrounding the issue of Nickel Metal Hydride in electric vehicles for me to think lithium research deserves top priority. It seems simple to me, someone patents something, and then doesn't allow it to be produced. That is not why patents came into existence. But that is another story.
Imagine the magnitude of the failure of GM: from 1959, when they kept AMC in existence only to guard against anti-trust, to 2009, when GM runs begging for money to continue building boring, money-losing gas-guzzlers.
GM Volt=Vaporware. On the remote chance these ever see a show-room floor, send GM and big FU and dont waste your money. Hybrids, waste of money. While there is no dispute they are somewhat more efficent than plain ol gas, the real purpose of hybrids is to keep you tethered to the dirty oil network. Even there proponents admit there not a real solution, so why waste time and money on a 1/2 assed fix? I refuse to support the N.A. any longer, till they build real BEV's. Till then ..bike
I don't think you get the point of the volt. It's not a hybrid. If you never want to use gas with it, you don't have to. Only the range extender uses gas, which allows electric cars to become more mainstream and fewer people to need to use gas.
That's what the techno-ignoramus Lutz keeps saying, but in reality, it's a serial hybrid, and they are going to have to start the engine even when the battery is full when there is high torque demand -- other wise, the battery won't even last 50K miles.
I feel that it must be a hoax, possibly they are just keeping the idea out there that in a few years we can get our hands on an EV. The EV-1 would burn the tires and accellerate fast. What happened with the CHEVY VOLT? I see videos of it driving like a golf cart, never fast. This makes me suspect that they made a poor quality EV just for show.
Has anyone noticed how slow the CHEVY VOLT is always when driving? I remember the EV-1 would burn the tires and accellerate fast, what seems to be wrong with the CHEVY VOLT picture? No Power, no guts, just for shows?
how about the way the volt is but add a large li-po battery as a smart battery, which takes brakes regen power and holds it until the main on board batts needs power, or on board computer will do the math and either take power from main batt to charge lipo, or vise versa and learns your driving habit to charge at just the right time
the lipp batt could be used as turbo boost when it's a full charge, giving you a limited boost of speed
NiMH batteries ARE better than Lead Acid (which is what a normal car battery is and what the EV-1 was powered by), BUT Lithium Ion batteries are a BIG improvement over NiMH.
Why should GM build a practically NEW vehicle using OLD technology.
The stupid person catches up, the smart person LEAPS ahead.
Why do so many paid GM posters lie about the real experience that we can see in front of us? How do they imagine anyone believes the lie that NiMH only has 200 cycles??
They aren't waiting, the battery is already done and the vehicle is on target for full-production in November of next year.
Seriously, is this the only evidence you have that the Volt is a hoax? GM wanted to outflank Toyota with the Volt propulsion system and by using Lithium. It WAS a slight gamble, but it turned out to be fine and the Lithium battery packs have been working well.
Where are you getting your facts? The battery puts out 16 kwh and from what I've heard costs around $10,000.
You keep changing your argument. It went from GM is waiting for Lithium, to Lithium is not good enough. Lithium also makes sense to Tesla by the way.
It also makes sense to invest in Lithium, because a majority of research is going to it because consumer electronics use them. So future advancements should come more quickly.
You have to pay for 16 kWh of Lithium, but the VOLT only draws 8 kWh, to preserve battery life. Cost of Lithium poly batteries is about $1200/kWh, if you prive them.
The point is, why rely on Lithium before it's proven? All the claims for Lithium are unproven, in cars; NiMH is the standard, proven EV battery.
All technology started as unproven. That's why its researched and tested like GM is doing now. If we didn't have companies pushing technology forward where would we be? The Volt is a great idea that will hopefully make electric cars practical for many more people. Because right now they just aren't.
EVs are practical right now. The fact that some day, they might get better, should not allow Chevron and GM to stop production of proven EVs that many people want. Ask yourself the question: what if Lithium fails?? It's failed up until now, what makes this time different? The Tesla only lasts 50K miles...
EVs are not practical right now. What we want is for as many people as possible to drive electric. But, the vast majority of people are not be willing to buy a $20,000 electric car and make this shift, because after 100-200 miles, you must stop and recharge for 4 or so hours. Thus, the car is impracticable for long trips. Until we can make a battery to recharge close to as quickly as we can fill up our gas tank, the majority of people will not buy electric. The Volt is the first step.
Lead acid and NiMH batteries are obsolete technology. Lead acid are way to heavy (500lbs+ to power a car). NiMH batteries have to short a lifespan (200 cycles). Lithium ion an lithium polymer ion technology is where we need to focus our attention. 1000+ cycles and low weight. Production cost is the LimFac here.
What about Li-Ion battery behavior? Do they like a full charge, deep cycles, heat or cold? Also, are NiMH batteries available to the public even from the Prius'? what are you gonna do when the rav4 batteries die?
The exact battery chemistry GM goes with will determine the battery characteristics.
Li-Ion doesn't self discharge like NiMH at full capacity, but it still doesn't like to be stored fully charged, extreme cold/heat while charging/discharging, and deep cycles.
GM plans to thermally control the packs and engage the genset when the pack drops to 30% charge. So the packs will always be kept warm and between 30% and 80%. They plan to use a 16kWh pack, so 8kWh will provide for the AER of 40-miles.
You can count on GM producing more than 1,575 Volts between 2010 and 2015. That's how many of your RAV4-EVs Toyota produced between 1997 and 2003.
The realistic number lies somewhere between what GM told to the NHSTA last week (no significant volume) and what Lutz said the other day (400,000 per year).
Of course, all this is assuming GM will survive until the release of the Volt. Some say GMs dedication to the Volt is nothing more than a buyout incentive for the government (plausible theory).
Simply from what I understand is that GM is displaying a vehicle that can deliver direct electricity to the motor. Not a bad idea, but I believe that this invention/idea was brought in 1985. 23 years ago, this idea was featured in a film called "Back To The Future". The Flux Capacitor works on 1.21 gigawatts of electricity to operate. "Just Kidding" Lmao... What am I talking about? I believe the "Volt" will bring world peace. A Time Machine To The Future! :)
NiMh weighs about twice as much as a comparable LiIon battery, so they have to be either much bigger or they will be much weaker. They are why electric cars have been a niche market until now. And their self discharge rate is kind of irritating, too.
That just doesn't add up. LiIon Polymer batteries have been around for years and they outperform NiMh on energy density by 50% and have 100% more power per pound. Lead acid & NiMh are why BEVs are only driven by zealots. They are heavy, recharge slowly and have the range of an obese housecat.
If GM decides to build this they won't have to look for 400 zealots in California to rent an obscenely expensive subsidized electric vehicle that will crap out 90 miles from home.
Altair/Aero is old news, as are Phoenix's working prototypes - I was picking on your language where you seemed to imply that no advanced lithium other than Altair was proven.
As for Wh/kg, Rav4ev is 63, Altair's ev cells are 79. Interpret that however you want.
Actually, the very last RAV4-EV has about 30 kWh total (about 1.3 kWh per module) for an energy density of about 76 Wh/kg. About the same, even for the crummy Ovonics version.
Why don't you simply buy batteries based on his discoveries (for $10-$20 per cell) and just do some experiments yourself before dismissing them outright?
As I've stated before: Spinel oxides and olivine cathodes in lithium batteries get around a lot of the problems. Longer life (possibly even longer than NiMH), low volatility, and overall durability.There's also superior charge/discharge efficiency compared to NiMH (less e- wasted on each cycle), and half the weight.Liquid cooling, balancing only take up ~15% on typical large lithium packs.If you have a sciencedirect account, look up "goodenough" under author. He has some good review articles.
Want a LI-ION EV? $42,000 gets you a Ford Ranger with over 450 mile range on a single charge, converted by LionEV.
It's roughly the same cost as the NiMH RAV-4 EVs were a few years back when Toyota started selling them off, but 3x the range. So it's too expensive for the average American, but no more expensive than NiMH EVs were a few years back.
NiMH EV-95 are dead. The oil industry buried them. We have to wait for LI-ION to mature and come down in cost before we will see cheap EVs.
You know. . . NiMH is really a moot point, isn't it? Those patents belong to Chevron, and they aren't allowing the batteries to be used in EVs or PHEVs -- by GM or anybody else.
Chevron's lawsuit, and patent portfolio, is questionable. Toyota surrendered to Chevron, shamefully paying $30M, tantamount to an apology, but need not have done so. It made more business sense, since Chevron would be a terrible foe, and could stir up racism, xenophobia, etc.
But GM, or any big company, could demand to use the batteries, and sue Chevron for restraint of trade if they continued to sequester them.
Let's face it, the auto companies don't want to go to bat for Electric cars.
You know it doesn't make any sense on why Chevron sued them.
If the case is because Toyota used the batteries of Chevron Then The Peron That Made the I.C.E. (internal combustion engine) should sue all the car companies of the world for using his engine then.
You're right. We now think that Toyota used the excuse of the lawsuit to kill the program. That, we think, was the price of their 1999 admission to the Auto Alliance. So the lawsuit was just a sham, a showpiece to explain why they dumped their great EV. WWE!
No one knows. Lithium tech in in flux right now, but the amount of money being spent (some grants adding up to less than $20M) indicate they are not seriously pursuing them.
Lithium when overcharged turns into dead bricks; the unprotected variety (like laptops) have runaway heat with high power draw at low voltage.
Lithium likes to be full, not empty. But it can't be overcharged. Lithium prismatic is pretty much obsolete; everyone uses Lithium-Polymer. The difference is the additives, Phosphorous, Iron, Titanium, perhaps other.
But we don't know how long they will last. We know that about NiMH: a great pack that has to be replaced every 3 years is no good. NiMH lasts at least 5, maybe 10, we don't know yet, they are still running well.
businessinsider com /how-gm-lied-about-the-electric-car-2010-10
Lockemeister 1 year ago
The Volt sill isn't out and it's almost 2011
Lockemeister 1 year ago
@Lockemeister it becomes available to the public this week, just as promised.
pokey6733 1 year ago
@pokey6733 Business Insider Web Site.
In the past, and based on GM's claims, we've gone so far as to call the Volt GM's "Jesus Car." And why wouldn't we call it that? We were told the Volt would achieve 230 MPG fuel economy and would always use the electric drivetrain to motivate the wheels .
Read more: businessinsider com/how-gm-lied-about-the-electric-car-2010-10#ixzz12CLSm0Mo
Lockemeister 1 year ago
Dude...what are you trying to say here?
To be viable, these things have to be charged in MINUTES, not DAYS. In the Northwest, there's not enough sunlight to make solar practical year 'round. And you need to make a convincing case for cost for the everyman. You haven't. Electricity, battery replacement, and initial purchase ALL make EVs expensive curiosities for the near future.
cecilbdml 1 year ago
Tesla, Mitsubishi iMiEV, Subaru Stellas, Chevy Volt, and 2012 Toyota Plug-In Prius will all use Lithium batteries. Looks like they are all making the same choice as GM. The iMiEV and Stella will actually be on the streets at the end of this month, and Tesla has been on the road for a while. It appears that most of the companies pushing EVs forward are going with Lithium. There must be a reason.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
The reason is that Chevron owns control of the NiMH patents, and has forbidden use of them in "certain transportation applications" that stops plug-in cars. Chevron's unit sued Toyota, which paid $30 million and ceased production of NiMH in 2002.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
Ah oil-shills, never let the facts get in the way of a good non-argument. Yes Li-on is more powerful, its also more $, the supply sit. is uncertain, and shorter life-cycle and poss. safety issues. One thing i'd like the oil shills to explain to me, where can I order a large-format Nimh myself and convert my (parked) ice to a BEV? Unlike gm or Toyota, im not waiting for Lion perfection, I would be quite happy with, good enough, which the volt sure as hell is not
Mebantiza 2 years ago
Actually, GM could launch the first version of the VOLT with lead-acid, if it were serious; the 1997 and 1999 EV1 went over 100 miles on a charge using PSB lead batteries. Just put out the VOLT with 10 miles all-electric range, to start!!
liveoilfree 2 years ago
Great idea, use a 10 year old technology and reduce the range of the car, while other companies are actually using Lithium technology. The goal should be to put out the volt and continue to work to reduce costs and improve Lithium batteries, not to go backwards. That's how almost all advancements are made, think TVs. You put out an expensive introduction to the technology, and eventually it gets better and cheaper, and available to everyone.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
ALL successful EVs started with lead-acid batteries (even the TESLA, which started as the Impact, EV1, T0) and later upgraded.
Lithium is NOT yet viable, it has not been proven. GM is setting itself up for failure, as usual.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
Ok, but there is a reason they started with lead acid and DON'T USE IT ANYMORE. Just as GM started with Lead Acid in the EV1 and have MOVED into Lithium. If GM is headed for failure because of its battery choice, then so is Mitsubishi, Tesla, Subaru, and Toyota. You said it yourself, Tesla started with lead-acid and later UPGRADED.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
Granted, but I just bought $5200 worth of lead batteries for an EV conversion, so lead still is used -- also for all golf carts, NEV, etc.
Tesla upgraded; but who can afford $1/mile battery replacement costs? Some can, and some will, but it's a limited market.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
Limited now, but the technology will get better. But EVs are limited right now anyway, because batteries are expensive, and gas is cheap. My choice would be the batteries which have the most potential for improvements. Right now that's probably lithium. Hopefully the Volt is the first of many mainstream EVs. They are already working on the 2nd and 3rd generations to make them better. That's good news for everyone.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
Just chill dude, NiMH is better, just admit it.
allawayjared 2 years ago
Oh, in that case, I guess you're right.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
There is too much controversy surrounding the issue of Nickel Metal Hydride in electric vehicles for me to think lithium research deserves top priority. It seems simple to me, someone patents something, and then doesn't allow it to be produced. That is not why patents came into existence. But that is another story.
allawayjared 2 years ago
Imagine the magnitude of the failure of GM: from 1959, when they kept AMC in existence only to guard against anti-trust, to 2009, when GM runs begging for money to continue building boring, money-losing gas-guzzlers.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
GM Volt=Vaporware. On the remote chance these ever see a show-room floor, send GM and big FU and dont waste your money. Hybrids, waste of money. While there is no dispute they are somewhat more efficent than plain ol gas, the real purpose of hybrids is to keep you tethered to the dirty oil network. Even there proponents admit there not a real solution, so why waste time and money on a 1/2 assed fix? I refuse to support the N.A. any longer, till they build real BEV's. Till then ..bike
Mebantiza 2 years ago
I don't think you get the point of the volt. It's not a hybrid. If you never want to use gas with it, you don't have to. Only the range extender uses gas, which allows electric cars to become more mainstream and fewer people to need to use gas.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
That's what the techno-ignoramus Lutz keeps saying, but in reality, it's a serial hybrid, and they are going to have to start the engine even when the battery is full when there is high torque demand -- other wise, the battery won't even last 50K miles.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
I feel that it must be a hoax, possibly they are just keeping the idea out there that in a few years we can get our hands on an EV. The EV-1 would burn the tires and accellerate fast. What happened with the CHEVY VOLT? I see videos of it driving like a golf cart, never fast. This makes me suspect that they made a poor quality EV just for show.
Solartruck 3 years ago 2
Has anyone noticed how slow the CHEVY VOLT is always when driving? I remember the EV-1 would burn the tires and accellerate fast, what seems to be wrong with the CHEVY VOLT picture? No Power, no guts, just for shows?
Solartruck 3 years ago
how about the way the volt is but add a large li-po battery as a smart battery, which takes brakes regen power and holds it until the main on board batts needs power, or on board computer will do the math and either take power from main batt to charge lipo, or vise versa and learns your driving habit to charge at just the right time
the lipp batt could be used as turbo boost when it's a full charge, giving you a limited boost of speed
the lipo also runs every electric gadget
on the car
mikedrazen 3 years ago
NiMH batteries ARE better than Lead Acid (which is what a normal car battery is and what the EV-1 was powered by), BUT Lithium Ion batteries are a BIG improvement over NiMH.
Why should GM build a practically NEW vehicle using OLD technology.
The stupid person catches up, the smart person LEAPS ahead.
hotFusionReaction 3 years ago
For a company in financial trouble they sure are spending a ton of money to pull a hoax.
fondue72 3 years ago 3
@fondue72
I know, when you receive billions of dollars in tax money (with no strings attached) you sure seem to be in financial trouble... LOL xD
rock3tcat 1 year ago
Nice to see you back, liveoilfree.
diggingforgold 3 years ago
Why do so many paid GM posters lie about the real experience that we can see in front of us? How do they imagine anyone believes the lie that NiMH only has 200 cycles??
Wonder what they get paid to post these lies.
liveoilfree 3 years ago
Our Toyota RAV4-EV is running every day on NiMH batteries, and put the LIE to the GM paid posters claim that NiMH (or lead) batteries won't work.
The 1999 EV1 with PSV 120 batteries went over 100 miles on lead-acid batteries.
So why is GM waiting for Lithium? BECAUSE IT HAS NO INTENTION OF ACTUALLY DELIVERING!
liveoilfree 3 years ago
They aren't waiting, the battery is already done and the vehicle is on target for full-production in November of next year.
Seriously, is this the only evidence you have that the Volt is a hoax? GM wanted to outflank Toyota with the Volt propulsion system and by using Lithium. It WAS a slight gamble, but it turned out to be fine and the Lithium battery packs have been working well.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
The battery is "done", all right!! 400 lbs. of expensive, short-lived Lithium that only yields 8 kWh of energy -- NiMH would yield 12 kWh.
Putting a $30,000 battery into a $30,000 car makes sense ONLY to GM. The greatest failure in economic history.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
Where are you getting your facts? The battery puts out 16 kwh and from what I've heard costs around $10,000.
You keep changing your argument. It went from GM is waiting for Lithium, to Lithium is not good enough. Lithium also makes sense to Tesla by the way.
It also makes sense to invest in Lithium, because a majority of research is going to it because consumer electronics use them. So future advancements should come more quickly.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
You have to pay for 16 kWh of Lithium, but the VOLT only draws 8 kWh, to preserve battery life. Cost of Lithium poly batteries is about $1200/kWh, if you prive them.
The point is, why rely on Lithium before it's proven? All the claims for Lithium are unproven, in cars; NiMH is the standard, proven EV battery.
liveoilfree 2 years ago
All technology started as unproven. That's why its researched and tested like GM is doing now. If we didn't have companies pushing technology forward where would we be? The Volt is a great idea that will hopefully make electric cars practical for many more people. Because right now they just aren't.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
EVs are practical right now. The fact that some day, they might get better, should not allow Chevron and GM to stop production of proven EVs that many people want. Ask yourself the question: what if Lithium fails?? It's failed up until now, what makes this time different? The Tesla only lasts 50K miles...
liveoilfree 2 years ago
EVs are not practical right now. What we want is for as many people as possible to drive electric. But, the vast majority of people are not be willing to buy a $20,000 electric car and make this shift, because after 100-200 miles, you must stop and recharge for 4 or so hours. Thus, the car is impracticable for long trips. Until we can make a battery to recharge close to as quickly as we can fill up our gas tank, the majority of people will not buy electric. The Volt is the first step.
sportsfreak800 2 years ago
The VOLT, GM now admits, won't be produced in any significant numbers at least through 2014, and won't help GM meet its MPG ("cafe") requirements.
Now why do you think GM is weaseling out of its promises? LOL!!
liveoilfree 3 years ago
Lead acid and NiMH batteries are obsolete technology. Lead acid are way to heavy (500lbs+ to power a car). NiMH batteries have to short a lifespan (200 cycles). Lithium ion an lithium polymer ion technology is where we need to focus our attention. 1000+ cycles and low weight. Production cost is the LimFac here.
dustmundo 3 years ago
Apparently, the real world doesn't matter to you, perhaps the laws of nature are irrelevant?
Lithium is untried and unproven in EVs.
Our EV is still going strong, run every day, on the same battery pack. No lithium EV has ever gone over 100,000 miles on the same pack.
liveoilfree 3 years ago
This is a useless video.
pjkPA 3 years ago
Your GM 20 mile range Chevy Volt is a useless golf cart!
antranig 3 years ago
What about Li-Ion battery behavior? Do they like a full charge, deep cycles, heat or cold? Also, are NiMH batteries available to the public even from the Prius'? what are you gonna do when the rav4 batteries die?
imacrazydude9999999 4 years ago
The exact battery chemistry GM goes with will determine the battery characteristics.
Li-Ion doesn't self discharge like NiMH at full capacity, but it still doesn't like to be stored fully charged, extreme cold/heat while charging/discharging, and deep cycles.
GM plans to thermally control the packs and engage the genset when the pack drops to 30% charge. So the packs will always be kept warm and between 30% and 80%. They plan to use a 16kWh pack, so 8kWh will provide for the AER of 40-miles.
diggingforgold 3 years ago
GM is not planning ANY significant numbers of the VOLT prior to 2015, so you can just keep on whistling while time passes us by.
liveoilfree 3 years ago
You can count on GM producing more than 1,575 Volts between 2010 and 2015. That's how many of your RAV4-EVs Toyota produced between 1997 and 2003.
The realistic number lies somewhere between what GM told to the NHSTA last week (no significant volume) and what Lutz said the other day (400,000 per year).
Of course, all this is assuming GM will survive until the release of the Volt. Some say GMs dedication to the Volt is nothing more than a buyout incentive for the government (plausible theory).
diggingforgold 3 years ago
Wagoner has already started to waffle on the VOLT, admitting that they may not be able to make the 2010 release date.
Understandable: the supposed sales price is to be $40,000 or less, but the fantasy battery would cost $32,000 and not certain how long it lasts.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Simply from what I understand is that GM is displaying a vehicle that can deliver direct electricity to the motor. Not a bad idea, but I believe that this invention/idea was brought in 1985. 23 years ago, this idea was featured in a film called "Back To The Future". The Flux Capacitor works on 1.21 gigawatts of electricity to operate. "Just Kidding" Lmao... What am I talking about? I believe the "Volt" will bring world peace. A Time Machine To The Future! :)
Clearwire05 4 years ago
NiMh weighs about twice as much as a comparable LiIon battery, so they have to be either much bigger or they will be much weaker. They are why electric cars have been a niche market until now. And their self discharge rate is kind of irritating, too.
ZivBnd 4 years ago
Actually, the Altair Lithium have about the same energy density as NiMH. As for the others, they are UNPROVEN.
Talk is cheap. The only proven batteries are lead-acid and NiMH. Lutz is already starting to weasel out of the VOLT.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
That just doesn't add up. LiIon Polymer batteries have been around for years and they outperform NiMh on energy density by 50% and have 100% more power per pound. Lead acid & NiMh are why BEVs are only driven by zealots. They are heavy, recharge slowly and have the range of an obese housecat.
If GM decides to build this they won't have to look for 400 zealots in California to rent an obscenely expensive subsidized electric vehicle that will crap out 90 miles from home.
ZivBnd 4 years ago
Altair is proven and the other novel lithium technologies aren't??
If facts were detainees, you'd be guilty of waterboarding.
ryddragyn 4 years ago
Altair was recently certified by Aerovironment via bench-testing. This is a far cry from running in an EV!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Altair/Aero is old news, as are Phoenix's working prototypes - I was picking on your language where you seemed to imply that no advanced lithium other than Altair was proven.
As for Wh/kg, Rav4ev is 63, Altair's ev cells are 79. Interpret that however you want.
ryddragyn 4 years ago
Not much different, that's what it means.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Actually, the very last RAV4-EV has about 30 kWh total (about 1.3 kWh per module) for an energy density of about 76 Wh/kg. About the same, even for the crummy Ovonics version.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
So the end result is that the best NiMH have about the same energy density as the Altair li batteries. Do NOT weigh twice as much!!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Goodenough is a lot more reputable than EEStor!
Why don't you simply buy batteries based on his discoveries (for $10-$20 per cell) and just do some experiments yourself before dismissing them outright?
ryddragyn 4 years ago
I don't have to; I've got wonderful all-electric RAV4-EV, using NiMH batteries and still going strong.
Perhaps that's a project for someone who thinks they know it all about Lithium??
liveoilfree 4 years ago
You don't know that. None of the newer Lithium batteries have powered an EV more than 50,000 miles without battery degradation.
NiMH doesn't need liquid cooling. I know all about goodenough, and his disputed patents. Nothing has so far been proven.
Look up EESTOR if you want to see more "mysteries", or look up "miracle lithium battery". They've been around for a long time, just all talk so far.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
As I've stated before: Spinel oxides and olivine cathodes in lithium batteries get around a lot of the problems. Longer life (possibly even longer than NiMH), low volatility, and overall durability.There's also superior charge/discharge efficiency compared to NiMH (less e- wasted on each cycle), and half the weight.Liquid cooling, balancing only take up ~15% on typical large lithium packs.If you have a sciencedirect account, look up "goodenough" under author. He has some good review articles.
ryddragyn 4 years ago
You don't know about the requirements for running in an EV. Show me the Lithium EV!
Lithium is all talk and promises, while NiMH is running every day!!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Want a LI-ION EV? $42,000 gets you a Ford Ranger with over 450 mile range on a single charge, converted by LionEV.
It's roughly the same cost as the NiMH RAV-4 EVs were a few years back when Toyota started selling them off, but 3x the range. So it's too expensive for the average American, but no more expensive than NiMH EVs were a few years back.
NiMH EV-95 are dead. The oil industry buried them. We have to wait for LI-ION to mature and come down in cost before we will see cheap EVs.
diggingforgold 4 years ago
Untrue. Try to actually buy one of them; it's all a lie.
"NiMH is dead", LOL! It's still running our 6-year-old EVs with no flaws!
You need to study before writing stupid stuff.
liveoilfree 3 years ago
How long will Chevron continue to hold the NiMH patents? Probably as long as Bush, the oil presidential officeholder, is in power.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
I read or watched somewhere it was in 2014 when it expires. maybe I saw it in "Who Killed The Electric Car?"
azncook 4 years ago
You know. . . NiMH is really a moot point, isn't it? Those patents belong to Chevron, and they aren't allowing the batteries to be used in EVs or PHEVs -- by GM or anybody else.
Zobeid 4 years ago
Chevron's lawsuit, and patent portfolio, is questionable. Toyota surrendered to Chevron, shamefully paying $30M, tantamount to an apology, but need not have done so. It made more business sense, since Chevron would be a terrible foe, and could stir up racism, xenophobia, etc.
But GM, or any big company, could demand to use the batteries, and sue Chevron for restraint of trade if they continued to sequester them.
Let's face it, the auto companies don't want to go to bat for Electric cars.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
You know it doesn't make any sense on why Chevron sued them.
If the case is because Toyota used the batteries of Chevron Then The Peron That Made the I.C.E. (internal combustion engine) should sue all the car companies of the world for using his engine then.
DriftingFWWA 4 years ago
You're right. We now think that Toyota used the excuse of the lawsuit to kill the program. That, we think, was the price of their 1999 admission to the Auto Alliance. So the lawsuit was just a sham, a showpiece to explain why they dumped their great EV. WWE!
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Thanks for the good explination,especially for technically challenged people(like me!)
madbillt66 4 years ago
No one knows. Lithium tech in in flux right now, but the amount of money being spent (some grants adding up to less than $20M) indicate they are not seriously pursuing them.
Lithium when overcharged turns into dead bricks; the unprotected variety (like laptops) have runaway heat with high power draw at low voltage.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Do you know the cost of Ni-MH batteries per kilowatt?
DrBrazil1 4 years ago
Lithium likes to be full, not empty. But it can't be overcharged. Lithium prismatic is pretty much obsolete; everyone uses Lithium-Polymer. The difference is the additives, Phosphorous, Iron, Titanium, perhaps other.
Lithium as 3 big problems now:
1. Shelf-life;
2. Cycle-life;
3. Premature degradation.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
But now they have Nanophosphate lithium batteries with a much higher shelf and cycle life. It also recharges within minutes.
ekuwa69 4 years ago
But we don't know how long they will last. We know that about NiMH: a great pack that has to be replaced every 3 years is no good. NiMH lasts at least 5, maybe 10, we don't know yet, they are still running well.
liveoilfree 4 years ago
Whats are the behaviors of a lithium battery?
DrBrazil1 4 years ago