Egyptian Facsimiles in the Book of Abraham

[TheSkepticChristian]

@MisioneriesinChile Hey 

[kramd1]

Have to agree with your point. 5.3

"Joseph Smith got none of the interpretations correct"

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@kramd1

You mis-context and misconstrue the idea, exactly as you do everything else concerning Mormonism. THANK YOU for proving to me you are a completely worthless and unreliable source for getting accurate information.

[kramd1]

In 1912 a number of leading Egyptologists were also asked to review Joseph’s translation work. Like Deveria, they also determined that the papyri were nothing more than common Egyptian funeral documents.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@kramd1

And the MORE UPDATED information on this outdated, worthless info has shown the 1912 Egyptologists were out to lunch and WRONG. Even the Egyptologist Klaus Baer agreed.....read it and weep your eyes out ignorant one, AGREED with Nibley's assessment of the shenanigans that postured as supposed scholarship in 1912. If all you can go is read the twerp views of anti's and think you know something, you are seriously misinformed.

[kramd1]

@TheBackyardProfessor UPDATE " in 1966 Upon examination by professional non-Mormon Egyptologists, the papyri were found to bear no resemblance to Joseph Smith's interpretation, and were common Egyptian funerary texts, dating to about the first century BC. The Book of Abraham has, as a result, been the source of significant controversy with Mormon apologists offering a variety of explanations as to the reason for the difference"

[TheBackyardProfessor]

@kramd1

More UPDATE.... as of 2010 there are still numerous means and ways of comprehending what is going on. We are not done. Hugh Nibley also showed the inadequacy of the 1966 polemics of the Egyptologists and their ideas. John Gee and Michael D. Rhodes are also bringing out more information. This is, after all, the actual nature of scholarship. The same thing continues to happen with the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi, Zohar, Bible, etc. & etc.

[kramd1]

@TheBackyardProfessor (All mormons) " I don't consider myself an Egyptologist at all " Hugh Nibley ... John Gee BYU in his overview fails to mention the missing bits of facsimile 2 added by the creative artist... Michael Rhodes BYU argues the meaning of the word "translation" and argues the original illustration drawn by Abraham was later modified by Hor. While Joseph Smith himself in many dairy entries "spent the day translating Egyptian characters from the papyrus" July - Nov 1835

[omiolo]

The brother was thrilled with everything he learned. He read, "prayed about the Book of Mormon, and was practically converted in one night." While preparing him for baptism they "went back to teach" his sister, fearing that Ana would try to dissuade him from being baptized because of the mistaken beliefs she held about the church.

[omiolo]

Sister W -- in the Brazil Brasilia Mission -- wrote of tracting in Brasilia and coming across a woman, Ana, who was "super anti-Mormon," having heard many falsehoods about the church. Sister W and her companion asked Ana if they could teach her to clear up those misconceptions and in the process ended up meeting and teaching her brother who lived close by.

[virtuteadepta]

Here is a shiboleth to determine if someone knows anything about Egyptian/Egyptology: if they say "hieroglyphs", then they might know what they are talking about; if they say "hieroglyphics", they don't know what they are talking about and they should quit talking.

"Hieroglyphic" is an adjective and "hieorglyph" is a noun. An Egyptologist (or anyone who has studied Egyptian at University will NEVER say "hieroglyphics". Hey, Backyard Professor: Stop talking!

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Aw drats, ya caught me. Yep the gig is up........

[ShaunK181]

Actually his evidence checks out with real egyptologists. I think the anti mormons fake their egyptologists. They are members of this guys church faking it. The name of abraham has been found under these egyptian facsimiles. Why not bring that discovery to light before you make a false movie.

[imckbe]

I like your outdoor settings. Thank you for what you do. I think we can also look at what joseph took the opportunity to reveal in the book of abraham. It means everything.

[MySweetSelf]

my favorite part of this video 5:36 If you want to get right to the proof in this video 7:00

[IExposeMormonism]

@MySweetSelf 7:00 minutes..."I'm not going to show you anything". That's just what Joseph Smith says.

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"Thank goodness our LDS scholars, and *real* Egyptologists believe in updating and are doing so, unlike our beloved critic here."

dang, did I miss the big news?

I missed *REAL* Egyptologists endorsing the BoA?

names please?

so did Zahi Hawass get invited?

National Geographic?

the Field Museum?

the Smithsonian?

please reference the journal issues that these amazing world-shaking BoA confirmations were reported in, thanks

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Nope, Nope, and nope. I was talking about the *real* LDS Egyptologists. They also are *real* Egyptologists, even though you don't like the fact.

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"1. Nope, Nope, and nope.

2. I was talking about the *real* LDS Egyptologists.

3. They also are *real* Egyptologists, even though you don't like the fact."

to answer:

1. I knew it, ur so weak

2. in REAL life, there should be no diff between LDS & REAL Egy's, there should not be any diff between LDS engineers, architects & REAL ones. so these LDS Egy-types should present BoA ideas at all Egy forums

3. what I like doesn't matter, TRUTH matters, present at Field Museum

[TheBackyardProfessor]

In *REAL* life no two Egyptologists, ***especially*** the non-LDS ones agree on very much! LOL! But your daydream is a fascinating psychological study, to be sure.

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"1. In *REAL* life no two Egyptologists, ***especially*** the non-LDS ones agree on very much! LOL!

2. But your daydream is a fascinating psychological study, to be sure."

so you're saying;

1. that if Egyptologists were confronted with the hieroglyphic symbols for these, they could not read it?:

(Leg,Arm,Basket,Basket)

(Double Reed Leaf,Arm,Mouth,Hand)

(Wicker Stool,Mouth,Quail Chick,Viper, Vulture,Folded Cloth,Quail Chick,Mouth)

2. so, now you're a psychologist too?

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No I said nothing about their abilities of reading now did I? How come you are never comprehending what I very plainly and obviously say? You strike me as merely willing to argue, but never to understand.

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"1. No I said nothing about their abilities of reading now did I?

2. How come you are never comprehending what I very plainly and obviously say?

3. You strike me as merely willing to argue, but never to understand."

1. U imply this, in 2 ways; U say that:

"In *REAL* life no two Egyptologists, ***especially*** the non-LDS ones agree on very much!" & by insisting that the BoA is a not the BoB papyri

2. because I do not believe its true

3. I understand U, just dont agree

[TheBackyardProfessor]

JOHn Gee IS presenting his information to REAL Egyptological conferences. Just because you haven't attended, not read his contributions does not mean he isn't out there making them. You *seriously* need to broaden your reading and understanding.

[Rommelator]

"so these LDS Egy-types should present BoA ideas at all Egy forums"

You mean like what John Gee (PhD, Yale) has been doing for the last 10 years or so?

[FC275]

Rommelator said:

"You mean like what John Gee (PhD, Yale) has been doing for the last 10 years or so?"

does he present those ideas in non-LDS settings or does he avoid them at those settings?

see here

"With regard to the articles by my former student John Gee, I am constrained to note that unlike the...practice of all my other Egyptology students, Gee never chose to share drafts of his publications with me to elicit scholarly criticism, so that I have encountered these only recently"

wikipedia

[Rommelator]

Your puerile well-poisoning aside (BTW, you should see how Larry Morris and Kerry Muhlestein ripped your cherished Robert Ritner apart in the 16/2 and 17/2 editions of the FARMS Review, respectively, especially about those infantile comments by Ritner) you can read some of Gee's comments on the Book of Abraham to the fifty-eighth annual meeting of the American Research Center in Egypt, in Toledo, Ohio, in the 19/2 edition of the FARMS Review (not that you read the FARMS Review anyways.)

[FC275]

Rommelator said:

"1. see how Larry Morris and Kerry Muhlestein ripped your cherished Robert Ritner apart in...FARMS Review

2. you can read some of Gee's comments on the Book of Abraham to the fifty-eighth annual meeting of the American Research Center in Egypt, in Toledo, Ohio

3. in FARMS Review (not that you read the FARMS"

1. 2 BYU prof's? FARMS=LDS safe-haven org

2. I'll look up the comments to that presentation

3. uR right, I'd rather read Harry Turtledove, if I want to read alt history

[Rommelator]

So, instead of, well, you know, actually doing any sort of critical analysis or actual thinking (which I guess must be a pesky thing for you), you are going to tap dance around the issue by pulling out ad hominem attacks and smear tactics. Well done. If this is the best you have to offer then I can sleep easy at night. Although, in retrospect, I guess I shouldn't have expected much coming from a Shawn McCraney devotee like you.

[FC275]

Rommelator said: "1. So, instead of, well, you know, actually doing any sort of critical analysis... 2. which I guess must be a pesky thing for you 3. you are going to tap dance around the issue by pulling out ad hominem attacks... 4. Well done. If this is the best you have to offer then I can sleep easy... 5. Although, in retrospect, I guess I shouldn't have expected much coming from a Shawn McCraney devotee..." 1. U should talk 2. " " 3. " " 4. after seeing uR best,I feel the same ;-p 5. thx

[Rommelator]

"Ne ner ne ner ne ner...na na na na na," said FC275 as he firmly wedged his fingers in his ears. "I can't hear you!!"

A fine rebuttal indeed. Good to see that the standard of anti-Mormonism hasn't changed much. Meh... Le plus ca change le plus ca le meme chose!

[FC275]

Rommelator said:

"1. Ne ner ne ner ne ner...na na na na

2. Meh... Le plus ca change le plus ca le meme chose!"

1. u R so childish

2. so, under pressure, U use French like JS did 4 his "adieu" BoM moment, figures, how quaint

btw thx 2 Babelfish, French is no prob

so Rommelator, can U use some of that reformed Egyptian, give us non-believers a run 4 our money trying to decipher it, or use some of that 5th degree stuff JS did 4 his Egyptian alphabet & grammar, u no like

"Zub Zool oan"

[Rommelator]

"u R so childish"

Says the pot to the kettle...

"so, under pressure, U use French like JS did 4 his "adieu" BoM moment"

Not this again, please. I was enjoying my Saturday. Now I have to deal with stupidity. Sigh...

Well, I guess Joseph Smith is in good company, since Paul Roche used French words (p.g. 377) in his translation of Antigone. Well, since you are so desperate for anything and insist on stupidity and insipidness and not actual critical thinking, I'll simply say adieu!

[FC275]

Rommelator said:

"Paul Roche used French words (p.g. 377) in his translation of Antigone"

Roche is French for "Rock"

its a French & Anglo-Norman last name

so he can be forgiven 4 putting on "airs"

also there's a diff between translating epic poems, dramas, plays by a mere mortal & as Joseph Smith claimed, god inspired "airs" & a tendency to speak King James English 200 years after it went out of fashion

KJV was first published in 1611

BoM in 1830

but of course, uR grasping at straws

[Rommelator]

No, you are the one grasping. The Book of Mormon is a translation, which means we would expect Joseph Smith to render words into familiar terms that are convergent with the original language. The word adieu has appeared in English dictionaries for about 800 years, including Webster's 1828 dictionary. My citing of Roche was an example of how a translator can render the words of an older language into a more audience appropriate language. Kind of like how the Bible does that with English, right?

[Weasel7711]

That is called quoting, or referencing, not passing it off as their own words.

I have read from reputable sources of the extreme similarities to contemporaries of Joseph Smith, from multiple sources.

Not to mention the book of mormon claims to be "the most correct of any other book" yet it has been changed numerous times by the LDS church.

[riversideharp]

By the end of the 1st century After the Death of our Lord Jesus Christ a massive and substantial genocide was carried out by the Roman empire to abolish what was known as the followers of Jesus Christ also called "the Brotherhood". Those with the holy Priesthood of Peter, James, and John ordained by Jesus Christ the Son of G_d were murdered.

Latter-day Saints are those ancient followers of Jesus Christ restored to live to be holy daily before G_d by the grace of Jesus Christ.

[Chickdeario]

What does that have to do with "signseeker"?

[riversideharp]

My answer is thus, a verse from the book of Mormon.

Ether 12:6 "And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."

[Weasel7711]

Awesome, stolen from the book of Hebrews.

No matter how many turn away from God, He has ALWAYS reserved the few to retain his Word. Even during the time of the reign of the Catholic church, God raised up Martin Luther to bring us back to scripture, rather than the opinions of man. So the Word of God was not LOST in the "great apostasy" it has always been retained in teh few.

[riversideharp]

If Germany had taken the Roman Catholic Church's side things would have been very different for William Tyndale and Martin Luther.

What do you mean by stolen?

[Weasel7711]

Sorry if this offends, but I mean that Joseph Smith took it from Hebrews when he created the book of mormon himself.

Back on the apostacy, if you look through scripture you will see that no matter how many times Israel turned away from God there were always those who still served him, he has always kept a remnant. One big example of this is Elijah and the 7000 which did not bow down to baal. 1 Kings 19

[glycoboy]

you're right about the past... prophets were always called to proclaim through revelation the truth.... this happened again with j. smith. there was a much larger falling away though after jesus. there are dozens of predictions in the new testament that the truth will be completely changed. a complete apostasy. need for a new prophet

[Weasel7711]

Christ was the last prophet. He left the Holy Spirit with His church. Christ said the gates of hell will not overcome the church. Are you saying he is lying? Joseph smith is a false prophet and a liar. There is absolutely no archeological evidence for the book of mormon's truth. The only evidence that mormons claim for this argument is the burning in the bosom, which is not evidence.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

You are simply ignorant of the vast amounts of materials supporting the Book of Mormon. I have 70 videos up on it and continuing to count more. You are simply out of date, and not knowledgable enough to pronounce such an inane thing. Refute the videos I have. I just posted 10 NEW ones on this subject yesterday.

[Weasel7711]

What degrees do you have?

[Weasel7711]

Could you tell me the names of them at least. I don't have the time to sift through all 464 of your videos.

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"You are simply ignorant of the vast amounts of materials supporting the Book of Mormon. I have 70 videos up on it and continuing to count more"

ignorant? of what facts? your videos do not constitute facts, they are more like ego strokers that "you are doing something" to defend BoM

lots of materials?

& yet there are no BoM exhibits in museums anywhere, why?

BYU cranks out BoM archeologists every year, get digging, fill those museums.

I'm waiting "vast amounts"?

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"You are simply ignorant of the vast amounts of materials supporting the Book of Mormon. I have 70 videos up...Refute the videos I have."

before I refute your prodigious output,

4 questions first;

1) are you an Egyptologist?

2) degree from what university?

3) have you worked on translating ancient Egyptian professionally?

4) are you implying that, since you have so many videos out on the subject, that you are an expert?

answer those wrong & I'll refute every point

[TheBackyardProfessor]

No to all of the above. Are you? Is this relevant really to exploring what the Egyptologists have translated and said? Go ahead and refute, if you can. But I expect to see you work with the Egyptologists TRANSLATIONS as I do. I already KNOW their opinions against the LDS, I want to see you analyze their work itself....

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"No to all of the above. Are you? Is this relevant really to exploring what the Egyptologists have translated and said?"

so you are an amateur, then yes, it has bearing on your comments, you are portraying yourself as an expert, yet you are not

you are stating that LDS is correct because you as an "Egyptology" expert have found the true meaning of these facsimiles, something that professional Egyptologists could not discover, just like Daniel Jackson did on StarGate

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"Is this relevant really to exploring what the Egyptologists have translated and said?"

now to most people arguing or debating a point about translating Egyptian papyri, when you stat this:

"Is this relevant really to exploring what the Egyptologists have translated and said?"

most people would wonder at your logical abilities from that

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT!

you're not an expert, yet you disagree with experts without proof? how are we to believe you? answer PLZ

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor said:

"Go ahead and refute, if you can. But I expect to see you work with the Egyptologists TRANSLATIONS as I do. I already KNOW their opinions against the LDS, I want to see you analyze their work itself...."

its a deal, I'm going to send your video to several archi/anthro depts that have accredited Egyptology depts an ask for an anyalasits of your work & Joespeh Smith's work

UCLA, Yale, Princeton, I hope they don't laugh too hard, but I'll post their responses on YouTube

[FC275]

TheBackyardProfessor answers to 4 questions: "No to all of the above."

1) are you an Egyptologist? TBYP, "no"

2) degree from what university?

Ricks College 1984

Eastern Idaho Vocational Techinical School 1986 (Science Degree; Radiation Health Physics)

Idaho State University 1994 B.S. in History

3) have you worked on translating ancient Egyptian professionally? TBYP, "no"

4) are you implying that you are an expert? TBYP, "no"

then you are just a prolific videographer, making unsupported claims

[glycoboy]

not to mention the discovery of Nahom. read the first book of nephi from the book of mormon and then watch "journey of faith' that is irrefutable truth of a location found which wasn't on a map for joseph to cheat off of... in fact the first map of the area that proves this place was in the 1930's...

[glycoboy]

oh and those examples are just twists of doctrines of men... 1 cor 12: 18, 21, 27, 28. how can u say that his church survived while the body of christ was destroyed? how can ye now say that ye have no need of some of these callings... like apostles, and still call it a church? HIS church organization was built to 'perfect the members (saints), 'minister' the truth, edify the body of christ (or his church). so u aren't lost in all these man made twisted scripture doctrines (see eph 4 11-14)

[glycoboy]

ook at where you are speaking from; mat 16:17-19. 'upon this rock i will buil my church.." what is the rock? hmmm its revelation. you see even here christ is saying not to rely on the source of truth except by revelation.. thats how his church is led. also, gal 1:6-12****read that one!!!! there is NO truth or church without pure revelation to those who were ordained to the calling... otherwise the people stuck reading about the history (bible) alone can twist it..doctrines of men. pharacies?

[Weasel7711]

I am amazed that you actually brought up Galatians 1:6-12 since by the LDS church's own admittance, they preach a different gospel than the Christians. You preach a gospel of works, while Paul preached a gospel of repentance and faith. Guess who brought this gospel (supposedly) to Joseph Smith? An angel! I suggest you read up on the similarities of the BOM to its contemporaries.

[glycoboy]

so are you of the church of Paul? When and where does the author and finisher of our salvation suggest that we pursue him with our lips only and do nothing to show him that our faith is not in vain? you can pick out individual scriptures and so can the pharacies. truth faith will move its possessor to some sort of change. if you have works alone you cannot be justified as the jews were beginning to think. i'm glad a couple apostles in some settings focused their talks on faith.

[FC275]

glycoboy said:

"so are you of the church of Paul?"

you have a lot of nerve, being from the church of Smith, a cult that uses a novel as a holy book, an alt history that don't make sense: Native Americans as jews, what a laugh

sort of like Scientology; Dianetics & L. Ron Hubbard

[FC275]

glycoboy said:

"you're right about the past... prophets were always called to proclaim through revelation the truth.... this happened again with j. smith"

if Joe Smith were a prophet, there wouldn't be books saying that he had false prophecies, now would there be?

they are called "Doctrine & Covenants"

D& C for short

[riversideharp]

Interesting that the New Testament Apostles used scriptures used from the Old Testament and thats not stealing, but a farm boy from the early 19th century with a 3rd grade education who would not even understood 90% of what was translated to the Book of Mormon? Yet, if he did "steal" it then how comes it makes the point where needed? What people do not understand is society back then was not educated the same as today.

As far as apostasy need I remind you what Jeremiah was going through?

[riversideharp]

Hey Backyard Professor, please post your next Torah lesson on your website.

Shalom

[TheBackyardProfessor]

Yes, I know. I WILL DO THIS. Sorry for the delay.

[Chickdeario]

"I don't think that Joseph Smith got anything right. Show me!" Chickdeario said challengingly.

[TheBackyardProfessor]

With the most pleasant of pleasures. Give me a few days and I shall bring out some things. Thanks for the interest. I leave tomorrow night for 3 days, and then realistically, 3-5 days of editing. I mean after all, I just GOTTA do a little fishing! lol......

[rd1999]

nice work, five stars, I'm still working my way through your archive. You are doing a great job here