House Judiciary Subcommittee Hearing on Torture

[DXVBHHTR]

Torture works but the best torture is forcing the prisoners to endure Hillary Rodham's screeching tirades on tape over loudspeakers.

[jimmyjammy008]

Being unarmed without the constitution to defend me I fear the "government" more than the "terrorists".With the means to defend myself I fear no one.

[jimmyjammy008]

Being unarmed without the constitution to defend me I fear the "government" more than the "terrorists". If I have a means to defend myself I fear no one.

[hakonatli]

That Steve Kleinman is right on top of things. Good man

[7BB79]

Bottom line. There comes a time when we need

information and we are going to get it. The same is true of American enemies. Every man

who has ever fought knows this.

[jacksydfield]

there comes a time we need info and we are gonna get it. but using torture may not be the most effective means (or may be the least effective.) wrongfully accused needlessly tortured, our standard of human rights jeopardized

[7BB79]

I basically agree, however, as Goldwater said: Extremism in the defense of liberty is

no vice.

[WareThunder117]

I know Malcolm Nance. He is a very good man.

[DamNationDiplomat]

I have NEVER used this ridiculous term before, but the internet does have one word for what just happened to Mr Franks: pwned!

[whitakerj]

Marine Special Forces here, if you do it to or own boys then it shouldn't be considered torture. The freaking muslims behead our people with dull swords.

[laleeloolelo]

An Indonesian who lived through Suharto reign here.

Torture doesn't work for interrogation but it does work to stifle dissent which is why FASCIST DICTATORS FAVOR IT!

May i remind you of this quote:

"Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither".

[whitakerj]

We aren't giving our Liberty we are gathering information from those who wish to take our liberty, freedom and peace.

And waterboarding has been used 3 times and has a pretty high success rate.

[laleeloolelo]

"And waterboarding has been used 3 times and has a pretty high success rate".

Really? Please tell me what times are those?

"we are gathering information from those who wish to take our liberty, freedom and peace".

Funny, that's what the excuse for torture during "orde baru" as well.

[whitakerj]

From Brian Ross with ABC

ROSS: That has happened in some cases where the material that's been given has not been accurate, has been essentially to stop the torture. In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with al Qaeda in this country and in Europe. And in one particular plot, which would involve an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles, known as the Library Tower.

[laleeloolelo]

If you are referring to the "LA terror plot" then the plot is actually foiled in 2002 BEFORE KHALID SHEIKH MOHAMMED WAS EVEN CAPTURED.

I know because the reason the plot was foiled is because of to the Bali bomb in 2002 one of the key operative for the LA plot was captured.

[whitakerj]

That doesn't negate the fact that Khalid sanf like a school girl.  The discussion is whether or not torture/waterboarding works, and it does.

in spite of all the made up liberal "experts" stating to the contrary, if you threaten a man's balls he will give you everything he's got.

[laleeloolelo]

Actually Khalid only confessed but didn't add anymore useful information.

Hence why fascist dictators like torture because they can force ANYONE TO CONFESS TO ANYTHING!

By the way i don't know that Ex-Navy Instructor Malcolm Nance and Air Force Reserve Colonel Steve Kleinman are liberals.

[whitakerj]

The information was correct, that's the point. There are liberals in a number of the military ranks, they are a small minority, but they are there.

[laleeloolelo]

"The information was correct, that's the point".

What information? The plot was foiled before he was even captured.

"There are liberals in a number of the military ranks".

And how do you know Nance and Kleinman are liberals?

Do you just assume that because they're against torture?

[RecceMan90]

Do you realize we waterboard our Pilots and Spec Ops personnel? We do that cause that is the worst we can do without killing them and keeping them effective. It shows them a slight discomfort that our enemies will show our captured Military Personnel! We treat all Prisoners of War (including Enemy Combatants) better than our service personnel get treated! If you want to win, get dirty!

[laleeloolelo]

"Do you realize we waterboard our Pilots and Spec Ops personnel?".

No i don't, so because it's to them then they have the right to do it to others is that your point.

BTW we didn't need to "get dirty" to win WW2 (Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuke aside) so why should we start now?

[RecceMan90]

Since you think we didn't get "dirty" in WW2, how do you think we won? Could it have been the restricted free press? maybe cause everyone that lived in America actually liked america? Or could it be we bombed just about just about every building in Europe? (today's standards that was very dirty!)

[laleeloolelo]

"Since you think we didn't get "dirty" in WW2, how do you think we won?"

By not becoming like our enemy.

Even during the height of the war neither the German nor Japanese prisoners are tortured by America.

BTW we still liked America it's the government that we don't like.

Anyone who tell that to dislike the government is unpatriotic is a fool or a government shill.

I grew up in Indonesia so i know this tactic because Suharto used it too.

[RecceMan90]

Yes I am saying waterboarding isn't that bad. It is very effective in making someone that knows we arent going to do anything but feed, clothe and give them a koran, think we are trying to kill them!

[im4wur]

RecceMan90 - Experienced intelligence professionals disagree with you.

[bodah44]

did you not get what the genral said? if he had used waterboarding then he wouldn't have known about the skuds and they would have been used to kill soilders like yourself. really if someone had a knife to your balls wouldn't u tell him what he wants to hear wether true or not? ps arn't marines trained to withstand torture, won't jihadists be trained as well?

[intarwebzz]

this air force guy sounds really articulate and rational; i eagerly await the smear.

[exweez]

the worst torture is going to work and having a building fall on your head and making you wife a widow and your children orphans.

[aphexmandelbrot]

"the worst torture is going to work and having a building fall on your head and making you wife a widow and your children orphans."

I thought the worst torture was when the Jewish population rose against the German working clas-

Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong war/justification.

[exweez]

yes you are very sorry

[patsagainstrats]

Democrats own torture now, as well as the war.

[dingusmungus]

Kleinman gets lots of brownie points from me... He really explained his position well, too bad Mukasey can't do the same. We need to throw him out next time he refuses to answer a question from congress.

[intarwebzz]

the scud story was cool. that's the America i want. well, except without illegal invasion of a sovereign nation that preceded that interrogation in the first place.

[Drstrangelove17]

I'm sick of hearing these extreme examples to set the backboard for the norm. You can't ask these kinds of "what if" questions (such as the "would you torture one person to save thousands of lives?" hypothetical) and expect that it's going to be the same answer every time. Torture is a bad idea, even in these extreme examples because the person isn't going to give good intelligence usually.

[cobwebhead]

Exactly, Doctor. If the highly unlikely ticking bomb scenario ever occurred, and the professional interrogators, after exhausting all other means, decided that torture was the only option and that the threat was so dire they were willing to go to jail, then we have a compelling case. A criminal trial would confirm the facts, and any convictions would be met with great public outcry and a presidential pardon (with parades). There is no need to permit torture under US law.

[SLAVEforLISA]

Dershowitz poses a question that LEADS with an assumption. The use of torture at best only guarantees the person will tell authorities anything just to end the torture. Of course that becomes GOLD for the likes of the Bush administration.

[chervilant]

Dershowitz should know better than to pose this tautological argument. That he appeals to that part of certain humans that recoils from the thought of personal loss--of life or the lives of others--is a powerful emotional propagandist ploy. Long ago, I lost respect for this man. His present day behavior tells me he continues to behave in inappropriate, deceitful ways. His public appearances should be prefaced with an advisory tag...

[2Halifaxion2]

The ticking time bomb scenario is unrealistic. The very fact that the man sitting in the cell is in the cell being questioned implies that the network of intel resources used to bring him into the cell EXISTS and should be used to the fullest. In other words, if we knew that the bomb was in fact ticking HOW DO YOU THINK WE KNEW THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE? Torture gives away our moral high ground and like the Col said, does more harm than good.

[mikemidcity]

Bush saz, "Why do these Americans hate freedom?"

[milkmantx]

try to post a video of someone being waterboraded here and youtube will take it down for being improper.. try to show it on t.v. and the f.c.c. will fine you a half a million dollars for being indesent! Doesn't Collin Powel's son run the f.c.c.?

[intarwebzz]

nah, he quit cuz howard stern hurt his feelings.

[milkmantx]

bah bah bui!!

[HiGuy505]

israel's gone down this road, everyone's forgotten that. in the late 90's they legalized torture both in rhetoric and practice. of course it was justified that it would ONLY be used in the classic ticking time bomb scenario. it didnt work. soon tens of thousands of palestinians were tortured and finally the israeli supreme court ordered a stop to it i think in 2000 not because of humane reasons but because the intell wasnt worth it. ckeck the book Torture, a human rights perspective.

[voiyour]

very interesting.

To answer Dershowitz's question from the ivory towers of Harvard; yes, if you knew for sure somehow that waterboarding would yield accurate intel that would prevent the deaths of thousands, sure you'd do it. But it's a scenario that could never happen. You'd NEVER know for sure that it would work. Not to mention it's torture.

[hypnofan35]

If you want to find out the truth you will have to waterboard starting with the president and vice president, then move on to Giuliani. It's OK, it's not torture, it will simply help them spill their guts. You don't even have to ask them anything, after several hours the will just start blabbing.

[socksnogger]

People just need to start water-boarding their children for discipline. That will put a quick end to the people who argue that it is humane.