From a pilot psychology point of view, city bombings such as Dresden could be considered as a large scale, real life Milgram Experiment, in which ordinary people are ordered to hurt distant, defenseless and harmless people by means of a pain switch. In such experiments most of theses people obey. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that the pilots also pressed their pain switch (the bomb release button) ...
I think this silly argument must stop. I respect you.
Deutschland ist der begabtesten und zivilisierten Land in Europa. Ich habe nichts als Liebe und Bewunderung für sie. Auch ich fühle das Gewicht der Geschichte. Meine Vorfahren, vor dem 20. Jahrhundert, wurden Kolonialisten. Aber ich spüre auch eine große Hoffnung für die Zukunft. Warum? Da unsere Generation wird nie den gleichen Fehler wieder. Und wir brauchen nicht, um sie auf YouTube Replay! Viel Glück für Sie, mein Freund.
Its amazing how we keep reading by the people from the alleged "Good" countries that their genocide on the "bad" Germans was justified.
Notice Germany never started war on the USA or Britain. Both countries were the ones who started war on Germany. Only an out-dated fool believes in 2012 that the allies started war to "fight Hitler". The aim was the destruction of Germany, "whether under the rule of Hitler, or catholic priest" . (Quote Winston Churchill).
The problem is that in war time, there is no such thing as civilians. The civilians perform their jobs, working for businesses that pay tax to the government (or create products that are exported for profit), thus empowering the war machine of the country. Civilians are an active part in the country's economy that they are in, doesnt matter if they are for the war or not. Civilians overall are innocent, but in modern war (after ww1) the civilian centres will be targeted. Its crappy, but true.
@dirac33 naturally there are people that do not directly fight and are called civilians since they are not in the army. I am referring to how area bombing was initiated from Britain since that was their line of thinking. Crappy part is, even if you hate the war and your own government, purely by going to work you are empowering the people that you hate through the national economy. Full scale modern wars will kill civilian centres first to kill the infrastructure and economy.
@108Dax No, i do not agree. There is still a difference whether you bomb civilians while knowing very well you do so - or being his wife and ironing peacefully his shirts at home.
According to your theory, a peaceful housewife ironing her husband's shirt clearly supports war and murder, and thus is guilty.
The difference however is the level of knowledge. He who carries out the deed has more knowledge about it. So the housewife can not be blamed as much as the perpetrator can.
@108Dax What a nonsense. Whom are you trying to whitewash? The massmurderers Churchill and Roosevelt, who cold-bloodedly burnt 1 Million chlidren and women to death in Axis cities?
So in Hiroshima or Dresden there were no civilians. Careful, sir, because according to your own theory you are guilty in the coming war, no matter how much you oppose war. Better rethink your weird theory.
@Elberiver11 Yes, I would be guilty of adding to the war, although Im from South Africa and we are pretty powerless anyway. I am actually a pacifist, believe it or not. I am deeply against any type of war or violence. I'm not talking about myself condoning the killing of civilians. As I mentioned before, that is the theory that the military leaders will follow in WW3 and have followed in WW2. Hitler actually started the bombing of city centres. The allies learned how useful that is.
The source I trust on the efficacy of the bombing of Germany is Speer's. His "Inside the Third Reich" records that the amount of materiel diverted to defend the home nation against the tide of Allied air attacks equaled tens of divisions - virtually an entire army group. It depleted the resources of all front line armies, significantly weakening them. Speer understood the Allied air war's logic, and he respected it. Hideous though it was, it really did shorten the war. Arthur Harris was right.
Churchill started the bombing-war on Germany on the night of 10th May 1940, the very same day he had entered office. On the first day, he bombed children, hospitals and mothers. This horrible mad warcriminal couldn't wait to kill children.
After the British Empire had started World war on Germany, the Germans made countless peace offers. Churchill refused them all.
The European war became a world war, just because one man wanted it: Winston Churchill.
@ludocrat you should stop to insult the Germans as "nazis". Your Allied ancestors commited far worse atrocities in Germany, than the Germans did in England. Not compareble at all.
In Prague 1945, German civilians were hanged up on lamp-post, upside down, petrol poured on them and set on fire. Over 3 Million German civilians were murdered after the war was over, many of them brutally tortured or raped or child-abused before.
Oh dear. Another ahistorical, nazi-apologist moron from the land that brought the whole world war, twice! And he's ponderously patronising too! That's a full house. So well done 'elberiver11'. You are the worthy winner of the title "biggest idiot this side of Moscow". Your prize? Complete derision I'm afraid. Moral equivalence in the face of absolute evil, which your precious nazis inflicted on Eurasia and Africa for six years, deserves total contempt. Rest assured you have mine.
Oh dear. Look, I really do admire modern Germany, our allies, but do you actually read any books?! Have you any idea what the Kaiser's army did, for instance, to Belgium in 1914? I feel very sorry about Dresden. To me it appears to have been an awful extension of a policy that, in the heat of war, seemed to be strategically essential. But the scale of both wars was caused by German militarism and paranoia. Understand that! Britain just happened to be in the way - fortunately.
@ludocrat Yeah the brits where sutch saints the last centurys ;) stop living in your dream world. History is never black and white. The two world wars werent only germanys fault.
Every historian will tell you the same today. You can´t realy be so stupid and belive the propaganda the people fell for the few years before and after the war.
OK. I concede all that. To be honest, I really didn't want to get into a flame war about this stuff because I basically agree with you on the general, substantive points. See my comment to Mr Elberiver11 below if you want to know how I really feel.
I actually wish you nothing but good fortune and success, having always had the greatest of respect and love for German art, culture, philosophy, literature, science, society, language and (above all) music. History is for ghosts.
@Teufelsnachbar667 So who were the two world wars fault then? It's quite clear Germany had the most to do with there creation and continuation. It took the work (and lives) of 3 primary nations and many others in the Allies to defeat them. And I'm damn glad they did.
"Pangloss Neo Nazi Arse Wipe and Anti Semitic Scum"
I remind the other readers that I am no "Neo Nazi Arse Wipe and Anti Semitic Scum". Behind a host of accounts spouting juvenile insultr is one person "TheLordGodOfmercy" with a mental age of a 5-year old.
One slight error right at the beginning,London was hit by ONE bomb load that was dropped in error by a pilot who had no clue where he was.Prior to this the British had been bombing Germany and also accidentally hitting civilian targets,this did not cause Hitler to go into a rage and start bombing civilians like Churchill did.
@silver760 Churchill had already decided to bomb Germany. The four-engine bombers, Lancasters, Stirlings and halifaxes, were built for that purpose.
The RAF bombardments of Germany (and France and Italy) were a continuation of the so-called "Trenchardian" air war doctrine which was first applied in Mesopotamia in its "Police bombings" the 1920s (see "Mesopotamia memo" by Harris in 1924). The target was there the civilian population with the catch word "morale" and white phosphorus.
I don't write this to you but to others, even though I address it to you. You are stupid and obsessed enough to go on with your recitations.
I am NOT a Neo Nazi or Nazi Apologist. You know it damn well yourself too, but you play a game here and it is called smearing or character assassination.
War is a tragedy... put the blame where it lies... on the Nazis... for invading Poland... and Holland... and France... and Belgium.. and Austria... and Czechoslovakia.. and Russia... and Denmark... and Norway... get the picture?
Industrial warfare is a nightmare. If you don't want to suffer the consequences.. don't start an industrial war.
How many industrial wars has the U.S. Government started. Again is the blame is not on the entire nation but on the circles who started it.
And to remind you, the war industry complex which armed up Germany from the late 1920s on and raised Hitler to power was ANGLO-GERMAN, i.e., with British capital and U.S. members on the boards: General Electric, I.G.Farben, lated Standard Oil too.
What about the Cold War and the arms race? That was the most "industrial war" too.
It was also the largest deception too. It was the excuse to loot taxpayers' money and to loot Russia and eastern Europe in ruthlessness with no equal in the history.
Yes, it was the Nazi Germany - IN FULL MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING WITH THE SOVIET RUSSIA (the molotov-Ribbentrop pact in August 1939). The Nazi government is of course guilty but it SHARES THE GUILT with the Soviet.
Let us remember that the anti-Nazi resistance was ABANDONED by Britain already in 1933 when it, to deaf ears, tried to warn the U.K. and France.
Let us also remember that HITLER DEPRIVED THE GERMANS OF THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS after the Reichstag fire.
@mrninjap00p You have no idea! Did you talk to those witnesses? I did, and I can tell you that what the red army did saw absolutely disgusting! I really don't mean to say that what Germany did is not disgusting, but what I mean is that you can not measure cruelty and say that the german population deserves to be cancelled. If you have any respect for the human life, you don't say that! And if you really think that Stalin was gracious to East Germany I think you are a little confused!
@lerro93 Respect for human life? The same respect the Germans showed the Russians. Most of the German populace supported Hitler or were sympathetic to the Nazis. They kept him in power through the war. I believe that everyone of them deserved to be wiped out. Germany as a country should never have been allowed to exist. They started 2 world wars and backstabbed Russia. I still believe Stalin should ve wiped them out, since Churchill and Roosevelt didnt have the balls.
@mrninjap00p With that you show again how ignorant you are! You have no idea what a dictatorship is like, do think you can go on the street and just change the status quo of power?! What about Japan? What about Iraq? What about what Russia did to Poland? What about Grate Britain that committed many crimes to the world too! After your stupid logic there would be only few populations on the world that should not be extinguished, maybe also Canada!
Im german, are you saying that I should be killed?
@lerro93 You should atleast made to pay reparations to all the countries and people u ruined. U sir, are a moron. U and the rest of the German people want to change history, want to pretend that Germany was not the instigator for WW2. You and ur forefathers voted Hitler in and kept him in power. "Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!"
@Mycterizian You know, I really think that @mrninjap00p belongs to those kind of uneducated peoples that watch some movies like "Save Private Ryan" and "Inglorious Basterds" and think therefore they have a PhD level knowledge about modern history! What a fucking idiot! And then he acts like he would be the only on the planet to defend the dignity of life!
@mrninjap00p Ya... well then starting writing a fat check out to the native Indian's you slaughtered in 1700 and 1800's you fuckin tool! It is people like you that need a front row seat in a fuckin gas chamber!
@mrninjap00p Actually, I looked it up and found out that Germany finished paying its reparations for WW1 only last year 2010! WHO IS THE MORON NOW!? GET SOME EDUCATION YOU FOOL!
All four (Stalin, Hitler, Churchill and Roosevelt) committed war crimes as well as the fifth (Truman). Churchill can be even blamed of knowing very early about the Holocaust and holding information within himself. He also knew about Katyn which made him suspect Stalin even more. Churchill also knew that the "dehousing plan" lobbied through in War Cabinet was criminal for he distanced himself from it after Dresden and the outrage caused by the raids.
The London charter after ww2 stated that only Nazi crimes would be dealt with in courts. That doesn't mean that there were no Allied crimes. These crimes exist because they fulfil the characteristics of crime. It is thus not states that the Allied crimes did not exist, it was said that they would not be dealt with in courts after ww2.
@Gott077 "I am half German myself but we have to face and recognise the truth. :))"
You are either ill-nformed or you represent certain type of fascism. Your half-German ethnicity doesn't explain this because I don't believe in collective guilt. It is not in genes but in the brain. ;=)
@Gott077 "So no reason to whine around about Dresden. Remember what they did to Coventry, Rome?! "
I think it is you who "whines" now.
Indeed the attack against Coventry was ghastly, killing 350 people. if you use revenge as excuse, remember that the RAF had raided Berlin at least 7 times before that.
The RAF killed for example in Pforzheim 17000 people in 20 min and 5000 in Wuerzburg in 15 min.
Revenge is indeed poor excuse in this case. Besides it equals to a confession of war crime.
@mrceebees14 "Do the people of Dresden have a commemoration day for all that were gassed and burned in the death camps by the Nazis?"
It is of course correct to remember the victims of the Nazis.
certain Allied war crimes should be remembered too, such as the mass rapes of ca. 20 million women in Eastern Europe and Germany, the ca. 2,5 million surrendered soldiers starved to death by Eisenhower and Stalin, and the self righteous bombing of civilians in Germany and Japan.
@TheMrPangloss You forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)
@mrceebees14 "You forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)"
Who armed up Germany? The U.S.
Why was Hitler treated so lenienlty after 1933. He was allowed to violate the Versailles Treaty of 1919.
Well, it was all business with political goals.
Britain had Germany total under control after 1919 but democracy was not the thing what was planned for Germany.
@mrceebees14 "ou forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)"
We don't disagree that those governments sucked big time. However, those countries could have had better govts. Why didn't they?
Why the reparations demands after 1919 which doubled Germany's industrial capacity to pay them?
Then again, why was Hitler (enemy of the society!) supported by the west in 1920s and early 1930s?
@mrceebees14 ou forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)"
Actually in the inter war period Britain bombed civilians particularly in Mesopotamia from 1919 on. The target of RAF Bomber Command was the civilian population on which young Arthur Harris wrote a memo. White phosphorus was used, and the term "morale" which meant killing of all people on the ground regardless age or sex.
How would you answer question that if it was your family that had been killed by enemy aircraft? Of course it's not 'OK', especially if you're sitting comfortably in front of your PC in your comfortable home in peacetime. In that period no such luxury existed and the British still believed it was not 'OK'. Just grimly necessary given the nature of the nazi beast. Try, if you can, to comprehend that.
@ludocrat Its not ok to kill civillians EVER. Is there anyway to get this into your pee sized brain ?
If one party decides that killing enemy civilians is a good way to bring peace, they are the true facists.
Killing 22.000 civillians in one night is not an act of war. What the royal airforce and the U.S Airforce did was an genocide. Just look at pictures of the piles of bodies on the dresdner market place. It looks just like auschwitz.
@Teufelsnachbar667 Over 1 Million children and women were burnt to death by Churchill and Roosevelt.
You fail to see that this was the British and American way of showing their humanity....
Remember, we Germans are bad people and the Allies are good people. The Allies are "good", no matter how many children and women they murder. Do you know why? Because they own hollywood, because they control TV and because they still control Germany.
@Teufelsnachbar667 I have seen publication of the "good" Allies , trying to show the "bad" Germans and trying to show Auschwitz.
And guess what photograph they used? They used the photograph of their own Auschwitz, when people were burnt on the Dresdner Altmarkt.
Allies = falsehood, crime, treason, and most of all: Deception. They want to make people believe they were "morally clean". Allies commited more atrocities in the war, AND AFTER, than Hitler did.
@ludocrat you should stop to insult the Germans as "nazis". Your Allied ancestors commited far worse atrocities in Germany, than the Germans did in England. Not comparable at all.
In Prague 1945, German civilians were hanged up on lamp-post, upside down, petrol poured on them and set on fire. Over 3 Million German civilians were murdered after the war was over, many of them brutally tortured or raped or child-abused before.
@Teufelsnachbar667 Of course bombing civilians is OK! It's a great British tradition, and guess why the two "innocent" nations USA and Britain invaded Iraq, invaded Libya, and now try to invade Iran......coincidence?
Notice Gaddhafi is portrayed by Anglo-American Hollywood Media as an "evil person", although he never invaded a country. Bush and Blair, to British-American warcriminals who murdered 1 Million children and parents, got away free!!!
I dont see the Germans starting any wars since 1945, but the "good" Allies keep invading the world and connecting the last free countries to their criminal central banking system.
London's and Washington's aim is and always has been, to enslave the world by DEBT.
Gaddhafi granted his citizens DEBT-FREE loans! The American & British banksters did not like that, because they are too eager to enslave the world.
MONEY IS THE REASON FOR ALL WARS. Not "fighting bad dictators".
@ludocrat I'm afraid not,this accidental bombing of civillian London is well documented,so is Churchills outburst when he found out,and his response which was to immediately start the daytime bombing of civilian targets in Berlin.It is also worthy to note that the British were bombing Germany long before Germany bombed Britain.Hitler tried repeatedly to get Britain to ally with Germany.Hitler was of the impression that Britain would ally with Germany to fight against Bolshevism,
The 'accidental' bombing incident is indeed well-documented but in order to make your point you are severely underestimating the damage it caused. Whether or not you are doing it deliberately is moot, but the effect is the same. Your claim in your last post, that Germany was not bombing Britain, presumably you mean in 1940, is plainly nonsense. That they were bombing airfields and infrastructure is neither here nor there. Many hundreds were killed, and many of those were civilians.
@ludocrat Many hundreds were killed? After their country had started bombing Germany. And today their descendants lie about who started.
Poland was none of America's issue, none of Britain's either. Both countries are not anywhere near Poland. Germany had a border with Poland, a border of aggression and war that was created by the Allies in Versailles 1919.
Over 30 percent of what you believe to be "Poles" were in fact millions of Germans and Ukrainians, being held captive by Poland.
5th Sep. 1939 on cities of Cuxhaven and Wilhelmshaven
First German bombs back on English cities:
7th Sep. 1940 on London.
USA and Britain won the war, by treason, warcrime and falsehood. History is not written by honesty but by those who win. Which is not necessarily the same.
@ludocrat Please do not compare the strategic bombing by the Luftwaffe with the planned and cold-bloodedly carried out genocide in Dresden or Hiroshima by the Allies.
Dresden was completely defenseless, overcrowded with 500 000 refugees, mainly children and women. Churchill started a Firestorm by dropping Phosphorous on an
undefended city. The Firestorm caused by the British reached 3 miles into the sky and sucked cars, uprooted trees and people up into its centre. Nobody escaped.
@Catachan1brainleaf Ah yes I forgot about the Condor Legion in Spain. I agree, both sides were as bad as each other, it's stupid for people to argue what was worse, Dresden or Coventry, when people lost their lives in both. The Bombings on both sides were, in part, an attempt to break the will of the people and both sides failed.
@Catachan1brainleaf On September 25th 1939 Germany terror bombed the city of Warsaw, Poland. Historically this was the first air raid upon a civilian population. Yes the Germans bombed London by accident (which the British weren't to know) resulting in the first British civilian casualties, the next night Churchill ordered a raid in retaliation on Berlin which caused negligible damage, Hitler, who apparently didn't know of the raid on London first, was incensed and ordered attacks to hit London
@STOPTHEEU September 25 1939 the Luftwaffe bombed Warsaw after heavy resistance from the defenders. The bombing of Rotterdam was 14 May 1940. And no the bombing of Berlin on the night of 25th August 1940 was deliberate in retaliation for the accidental raid on London.
Can someone please tell me the name of the THEME MUSIC at the beginning?
Been looking for it for ages.
Nuron666 1 week ago
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From a pilot psychology point of view, city bombings such as Dresden could be considered as a large scale, real life Milgram Experiment, in which ordinary people are ordered to hurt distant, defenseless and harmless people by means of a pain switch. In such experiments most of theses people obey. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that the pilots also pressed their pain switch (the bomb release button) ...
kwalliander 3 weeks ago
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kwalliander 3 weeks ago
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kwalliander 3 weeks ago
why 14 mln schweine sprache leute were send back home?? I think them should be send to the Auschwitz and change to the oxygen and Co.
ArthurHarisBomber 3 weeks ago
"We do not fight the Nazis, but the whole German people".
Lord Robert Vansittart, British chief-propaganda adviser in a telegram to Lord Halifax, March 1941
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@Elberiver11
I think this silly argument must stop. I respect you.
Deutschland ist der begabtesten und zivilisierten Land in Europa. Ich habe nichts als Liebe und Bewunderung für sie. Auch ich fühle das Gewicht der Geschichte. Meine Vorfahren, vor dem 20. Jahrhundert, wurden Kolonialisten. Aber ich spüre auch eine große Hoffnung für die Zukunft. Warum? Da unsere Generation wird nie den gleichen Fehler wieder. Und wir brauchen nicht, um sie auf YouTube Replay! Viel Glück für Sie, mein Freund.
ludocrat 1 month ago
Its amazing how we keep reading by the people from the alleged "Good" countries that their genocide on the "bad" Germans was justified.
Notice Germany never started war on the USA or Britain. Both countries were the ones who started war on Germany. Only an out-dated fool believes in 2012 that the allies started war to "fight Hitler". The aim was the destruction of Germany, "whether under the rule of Hitler, or catholic priest" . (Quote Winston Churchill).
Elberiver11 1 month ago
Does anyone know the theme Music to TIMEWATCH?
Nuron666 1 month ago
I guess this ferocious bombing coincided exactly with Churchils speach : "We will meat out the measure..." etc.
terfle1106 1 month ago
The problem is that in war time, there is no such thing as civilians. The civilians perform their jobs, working for businesses that pay tax to the government (or create products that are exported for profit), thus empowering the war machine of the country. Civilians are an active part in the country's economy that they are in, doesnt matter if they are for the war or not. Civilians overall are innocent, but in modern war (after ww1) the civilian centres will be targeted. Its crappy, but true.
108Dax 1 month ago
@108Dax This is just bullshit. Of course there are civilians. Ask the people of Poland if there are any civilians in wartime.
dirac33 1 month ago in playlist BBC Timewatch - Bombing Germany
@dirac33 naturally there are people that do not directly fight and are called civilians since they are not in the army. I am referring to how area bombing was initiated from Britain since that was their line of thinking. Crappy part is, even if you hate the war and your own government, purely by going to work you are empowering the people that you hate through the national economy. Full scale modern wars will kill civilian centres first to kill the infrastructure and economy.
108Dax 1 month ago
@108Dax No, i do not agree. There is still a difference whether you bomb civilians while knowing very well you do so - or being his wife and ironing peacefully his shirts at home.
According to your theory, a peaceful housewife ironing her husband's shirt clearly supports war and murder, and thus is guilty.
The difference however is the level of knowledge. He who carries out the deed has more knowledge about it. So the housewife can not be blamed as much as the perpetrator can.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@108Dax What a nonsense. Whom are you trying to whitewash? The massmurderers Churchill and Roosevelt, who cold-bloodedly burnt 1 Million chlidren and women to death in Axis cities?
So in Hiroshima or Dresden there were no civilians. Careful, sir, because according to your own theory you are guilty in the coming war, no matter how much you oppose war. Better rethink your weird theory.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@Elberiver11 Yes, I would be guilty of adding to the war, although Im from South Africa and we are pretty powerless anyway. I am actually a pacifist, believe it or not. I am deeply against any type of war or violence. I'm not talking about myself condoning the killing of civilians. As I mentioned before, that is the theory that the military leaders will follow in WW3 and have followed in WW2. Hitler actually started the bombing of city centres. The allies learned how useful that is.
108Dax 1 month ago
The source I trust on the efficacy of the bombing of Germany is Speer's. His "Inside the Third Reich" records that the amount of materiel diverted to defend the home nation against the tide of Allied air attacks equaled tens of divisions - virtually an entire army group. It depleted the resources of all front line armies, significantly weakening them. Speer understood the Allied air war's logic, and he respected it. Hideous though it was, it really did shorten the war. Arthur Harris was right.
ludocrat 1 month ago in playlist BBC Timewatch - Bombing Germany
Churchill started the bombing-war on Germany on the night of 10th May 1940, the very same day he had entered office. On the first day, he bombed children, hospitals and mothers. This horrible mad warcriminal couldn't wait to kill children.
After the British Empire had started World war on Germany, the Germans made countless peace offers. Churchill refused them all.
The European war became a world war, just because one man wanted it: Winston Churchill.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@Elberiver11
Here speaks someone who is either a neo-nazi, or has never read a decent history book in his life. Probably both observations apply.
ludocrat 1 month ago in playlist BBC Timewatch - Bombing Germany
@ludocrat you should stop to insult the Germans as "nazis". Your Allied ancestors commited far worse atrocities in Germany, than the Germans did in England. Not compareble at all.
In Prague 1945, German civilians were hanged up on lamp-post, upside down, petrol poured on them and set on fire. Over 3 Million German civilians were murdered after the war was over, many of them brutally tortured or raped or child-abused before.
I guess you call that "liberation".
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@ludocrat It's really funny how the British would call anyone a "nazi", except themselves.
I suppose your racist ancestors invaded North America and exterminated the Indians in 13 British colonies, to "bring democracy"?
The Native American Holocaust, perpetraded by the British Empire and Americans, exterminated a lot more people than "the bad germans" did.
The reaon why you deny British atrocites and guilt is, because you probably dont even know about it. So i won't blame you for that.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@Elberiver11
Oh dear. Another ahistorical, nazi-apologist moron from the land that brought the whole world war, twice! And he's ponderously patronising too! That's a full house. So well done 'elberiver11'. You are the worthy winner of the title "biggest idiot this side of Moscow". Your prize? Complete derision I'm afraid. Moral equivalence in the face of absolute evil, which your precious nazis inflicted on Eurasia and Africa for six years, deserves total contempt. Rest assured you have mine.
ludocrat 1 month ago
@ludocrat So why is ww1 now our fault ? Ever heard of the small country called Austria ?
And maybe you learn something about british foreign politcs.
Teufelsnachbar667 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667
Oh dear. Look, I really do admire modern Germany, our allies, but do you actually read any books?! Have you any idea what the Kaiser's army did, for instance, to Belgium in 1914? I feel very sorry about Dresden. To me it appears to have been an awful extension of a policy that, in the heat of war, seemed to be strategically essential. But the scale of both wars was caused by German militarism and paranoia. Understand that! Britain just happened to be in the way - fortunately.
ludocrat 1 month ago
@ludocrat Yeah the brits where sutch saints the last centurys ;) stop living in your dream world. History is never black and white. The two world wars werent only germanys fault.
Every historian will tell you the same today. You can´t realy be so stupid and belive the propaganda the people fell for the few years before and after the war.
Teufelsnachbar667 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667
OK. I concede all that. To be honest, I really didn't want to get into a flame war about this stuff because I basically agree with you on the general, substantive points. See my comment to Mr Elberiver11 below if you want to know how I really feel.
I actually wish you nothing but good fortune and success, having always had the greatest of respect and love for German art, culture, philosophy, literature, science, society, language and (above all) music. History is for ghosts.
ludocrat 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667 So who were the two world wars fault then? It's quite clear Germany had the most to do with there creation and continuation. It took the work (and lives) of 3 primary nations and many others in the Allies to defeat them. And I'm damn glad they did.
dinsdale007 2 days ago
@dinsdale007 World War 1 clearly Austrias and Great Britains fault. WW 2 again GB and Nazi germany.
Teufelsnachbar667 2 days ago
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Did we ever try dropping Food for the Germans! Or are we just as bad!
SuperTastyone 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Pangloss Neo Nazi Arse Wipe and Anti Semitic Scum"
I remind the other readers that I am no "Neo Nazi Arse Wipe and Anti Semitic Scum". Behind a host of accounts spouting juvenile insultr is one person "TheLordGodOfmercy" with a mental age of a 5-year old.
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
One slight error right at the beginning,London was hit by ONE bomb load that was dropped in error by a pilot who had no clue where he was.Prior to this the British had been bombing Germany and also accidentally hitting civilian targets,this did not cause Hitler to go into a rage and start bombing civilians like Churchill did.
silver760 2 months ago
@silver760 Churchill had already decided to bomb Germany. The four-engine bombers, Lancasters, Stirlings and halifaxes, were built for that purpose.
The RAF bombardments of Germany (and France and Italy) were a continuation of the so-called "Trenchardian" air war doctrine which was first applied in Mesopotamia in its "Police bombings" the 1920s (see "Mesopotamia memo" by Harris in 1924). The target was there the civilian population with the catch word "morale" and white phosphorus.
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
@silver760 Rubbish.
ludocrat 1 month ago in playlist BBC Timewatch - Bombing Germany
Pangloss Neo Nazi Arse Wipe and Anti Semitic Scum
TheMrBlockTheHood 2 months ago
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@TheMrBlockTheHood "Pangloss Neo Nazi Arse Wipe and Anti Semitic Scum"
LordGodOfMercy,
I don't write this to you but to others, even though I address it to you. You are stupid and obsessed enough to go on with your recitations.
I am NOT a Neo Nazi or Nazi Apologist. You know it damn well yourself too, but you play a game here and it is called smearing or character assassination.
You are too stupid to carry it out successfully.
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
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lerro93 2 months ago
What is the opening music? It's gorgeous.
clearlogicify 3 months ago
War is a tragedy... put the blame where it lies... on the Nazis... for invading Poland... and Holland... and France... and Belgium.. and Austria... and Czechoslovakia.. and Russia... and Denmark... and Norway... get the picture?
Industrial warfare is a nightmare. If you don't want to suffer the consequences.. don't start an industrial war.
westcoast1965 3 months ago
@westcoast1965 ".. don't start an industrial war."
How many industrial wars has the U.S. Government started. Again is the blame is not on the entire nation but on the circles who started it.
And to remind you, the war industry complex which armed up Germany from the late 1920s on and raised Hitler to power was ANGLO-GERMAN, i.e., with British capital and U.S. members on the boards: General Electric, I.G.Farben, lated Standard Oil too.
The same was done with the Soviet too, btw.
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
@westcoast1965 ".. don't start an industrial war."
Yes, I agree.
What about the Cold War and the arms race? That was the most "industrial war" too.
It was also the largest deception too. It was the excuse to loot taxpayers' money and to loot Russia and eastern Europe in ruthlessness with no equal in the history.
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
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mrninjap00p 4 months ago
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TheMrPangloss 3 months ago
@mrninjap00p It was Nazi Germany."
Yes, it was the Nazi Germany - IN FULL MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING WITH THE SOVIET RUSSIA (the molotov-Ribbentrop pact in August 1939). The Nazi government is of course guilty but it SHARES THE GUILT with the Soviet.
Let us remember that the anti-Nazi resistance was ABANDONED by Britain already in 1933 when it, to deaf ears, tried to warn the U.K. and France.
Let us also remember that HITLER DEPRIVED THE GERMANS OF THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS after the Reichstag fire.
TheMrPangloss 3 months ago
@TheMrPangloss Finally someone with some knowledge!!! Thanks!
lerro93 2 months ago
@mrninjap00p well... that is what Russia actually did you fool!!! Look up the "Große Flucht "!
lerro93 3 months ago
@lerro93 It wasnt enough IMO. every german mother, child and man deserved far worse. Stalin was gracious to allow them to live in east Germany.
mrninjap00p 3 months ago
@mrninjap00p You have no idea! Did you talk to those witnesses? I did, and I can tell you that what the red army did saw absolutely disgusting! I really don't mean to say that what Germany did is not disgusting, but what I mean is that you can not measure cruelty and say that the german population deserves to be cancelled. If you have any respect for the human life, you don't say that! And if you really think that Stalin was gracious to East Germany I think you are a little confused!
lerro93 2 months ago
@lerro93 Respect for human life? The same respect the Germans showed the Russians. Most of the German populace supported Hitler or were sympathetic to the Nazis. They kept him in power through the war. I believe that everyone of them deserved to be wiped out. Germany as a country should never have been allowed to exist. They started 2 world wars and backstabbed Russia. I still believe Stalin should ve wiped them out, since Churchill and Roosevelt didnt have the balls.
mrninjap00p 2 months ago
@mrninjap00p With that you show again how ignorant you are! You have no idea what a dictatorship is like, do think you can go on the street and just change the status quo of power?! What about Japan? What about Iraq? What about what Russia did to Poland? What about Grate Britain that committed many crimes to the world too! After your stupid logic there would be only few populations on the world that should not be extinguished, maybe also Canada!
Im german, are you saying that I should be killed?
lerro93 2 months ago
@lerro93 You should atleast made to pay reparations to all the countries and people u ruined. U sir, are a moron. U and the rest of the German people want to change history, want to pretend that Germany was not the instigator for WW2. You and ur forefathers voted Hitler in and kept him in power. "Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!"
mrninjap00p 2 months ago
@mrninjap00p GERMANY IS STILL PAYING REPARATIONS SINCE THE END OF WW2! WHO IS THE MORON, NOBODY WANTS TO GANGE HISTORY!!!
lerro93 2 months ago
@lerro93 Especially the Zionist's.
Mycterizian 2 months ago
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@Mycterizian You know, I really think that @mrninjap00p belongs to those kind of uneducated peoples that watch some movies like "Save Private Ryan" and "Inglorious Basterds" and think therefore they have a PhD level knowledge about modern history! What a fucking idiot! And then he acts like he would be the only on the planet to defend the dignity of life!
lerro93 2 months ago
@mrninjap00p Ya... well then starting writing a fat check out to the native Indian's you slaughtered in 1700 and 1800's you fuckin tool! It is people like you that need a front row seat in a fuckin gas chamber!
Mycterizian 2 months ago
@mrninjap00p Actually, I looked it up and found out that Germany finished paying its reparations for WW1 only last year 2010! WHO IS THE MORON NOW!? GET SOME EDUCATION YOU FOOL!
lerro93 2 months ago
97% of Wesel was destroyed and 95% of it's population killed.
qwertasdcfghjklmo24z 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "There are no allied war crimes..."
All four (Stalin, Hitler, Churchill and Roosevelt) committed war crimes as well as the fifth (Truman). Churchill can be even blamed of knowing very early about the Holocaust and holding information within himself. He also knew about Katyn which made him suspect Stalin even more. Churchill also knew that the "dehousing plan" lobbied through in War Cabinet was criminal for he distanced himself from it after Dresden and the outrage caused by the raids.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "There are no allied war crimes..."
The London charter after ww2 stated that only Nazi crimes would be dealt with in courts. That doesn't mean that there were no Allied crimes. These crimes exist because they fulfil the characteristics of crime. It is thus not states that the Allied crimes did not exist, it was said that they would not be dealt with in courts after ww2.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "I am half German myself but we have to face and recognise the truth. :))"
You are either ill-nformed or you represent certain type of fascism. Your half-German ethnicity doesn't explain this because I don't believe in collective guilt. It is not in genes but in the brain. ;=)
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "They got what they deserved and could experience the effects of their own evil deeds. "
Isn't this racism. Yes it definitely is because:
(1) You cannot say who was criminal and who was not, and you can outrule children of no legal age, retired ex communists and supporters of anti-Nazis.
(2) Churchill says clearly that the war was against Germans, that means, it was also against the opponents of Hitler and the NSDAP.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "Rome?! "
RAF also bombed Rome too which caused an outrage in the whole Catholic world.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "So no reason to whine around about Dresden. Remember what they did to Coventry, Rome?! "
I think it is you who "whines" now.
Indeed the attack against Coventry was ghastly, killing 350 people. if you use revenge as excuse, remember that the RAF had raided Berlin at least 7 times before that.
The RAF killed for example in Pforzheim 17000 people in 20 min and 5000 in Wuerzburg in 15 min.
Revenge is indeed poor excuse in this case. Besides it equals to a confession of war crime.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "...at least it was not an instrument of politics as it was in 3rd Reich..."
The death camps of Eisenhower served politics exactly like the Nazi death camps and the Gulag of Stalin (btw. an ally of Britain)
Then the atomic bombs were political since the bombs were dropped into habitable areas AGAINS THE RECOMMENDATION OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT
The "dehousing plan" of Lord Cherwell lobbied through in the War Cabinet in 1942 did not go through without protest.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
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@Gott077 "There are no allied war crimes. at least it was not an instrument of politics as it was in 3rd Reich."
Really?
- Katyn nears Smolensk?
- the mass rapes of millions of East European women?
- Eisenhower's death camps?
& c.
contd.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
Do the people of Dresden have a commemoration day for all that were gassed and burned in the death camps by the Nazis?
mrceebees14 5 months ago
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TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
@mrceebees14 "Do the people of Dresden have a commemoration day for all that were gassed and burned in the death camps by the Nazis?"
It is of course correct to remember the victims of the Nazis.
certain Allied war crimes should be remembered too, such as the mass rapes of ca. 20 million women in Eastern Europe and Germany, the ca. 2,5 million surrendered soldiers starved to death by Eisenhower and Stalin, and the self righteous bombing of civilians in Germany and Japan.
TheMrPangloss 4 months ago
@TheMrPangloss You forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)
So fuck you with that bullshit.
mrceebees14 2 months ago
@mrceebees14 "You forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)"
Who armed up Germany? The U.S.
Why was Hitler treated so lenienlty after 1933. He was allowed to violate the Versailles Treaty of 1919.
Well, it was all business with political goals.
Britain had Germany total under control after 1919 but democracy was not the thing what was planned for Germany.
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
@TheMrPangloss That is absolutely correct.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@mrceebees14 "ou forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)"
We don't disagree that those governments sucked big time. However, those countries could have had better govts. Why didn't they?
Why the reparations demands after 1919 which doubled Germany's industrial capacity to pay them?
Then again, why was Hitler (enemy of the society!) supported by the west in 1920s and early 1930s?
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
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@mrceebees14 ou forget who did the raping and bombing of civilians first dickwad, it was the Germans(bombing of Poland) and the Japanese (Bombing of Nanking)"
Actually in the inter war period Britain bombed civilians particularly in Mesopotamia from 1919 on. The target of RAF Bomber Command was the civilian population on which young Arthur Harris wrote a memo. White phosphorus was used, and the term "morale" which meant killing of all people on the ground regardless age or sex.
TheMrPangloss 2 months ago
@mrceebees14 Yes, they do have!!!
lerro93 2 months ago
Both, the Allies and the Axis commited horrible war crimes. And the bombing of the civilians was one of the biggest.
Teufelsnachbar667 5 months ago 2
@Teufelsnachbar667
Absolute rubbish.
ludocrat 1 month ago in playlist BBC Timewatch - Bombing Germany
@ludocrat So bombing civilians is ok or what ?
Teufelsnachbar667 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667
How would you answer question that if it was your family that had been killed by enemy aircraft? Of course it's not 'OK', especially if you're sitting comfortably in front of your PC in your comfortable home in peacetime. In that period no such luxury existed and the British still believed it was not 'OK'. Just grimly necessary given the nature of the nazi beast. Try, if you can, to comprehend that.
ludocrat 1 month ago
@ludocrat Its not ok to kill civillians EVER. Is there anyway to get this into your pee sized brain ?
If one party decides that killing enemy civilians is a good way to bring peace, they are the true facists.
Killing 22.000 civillians in one night is not an act of war. What the royal airforce and the U.S Airforce did was an genocide. Just look at pictures of the piles of bodies on the dresdner market place. It looks just like auschwitz.
Teufelsnachbar667 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667
Don't be such a fool.
ludocrat 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667 Over 1 Million children and women were burnt to death by Churchill and Roosevelt.
You fail to see that this was the British and American way of showing their humanity....
Remember, we Germans are bad people and the Allies are good people. The Allies are "good", no matter how many children and women they murder. Do you know why? Because they own hollywood, because they control TV and because they still control Germany.
(Read Artikel 139 Grundgesetz)
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667 I have seen publication of the "good" Allies , trying to show the "bad" Germans and trying to show Auschwitz.
And guess what photograph they used? They used the photograph of their own Auschwitz, when people were burnt on the Dresdner Altmarkt.
Allies = falsehood, crime, treason, and most of all: Deception. They want to make people believe they were "morally clean". Allies commited more atrocities in the war, AND AFTER, than Hitler did.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@ludocrat you should stop to insult the Germans as "nazis". Your Allied ancestors commited far worse atrocities in Germany, than the Germans did in England. Not comparable at all.
In Prague 1945, German civilians were hanged up on lamp-post, upside down, petrol poured on them and set on fire. Over 3 Million German civilians were murdered after the war was over, many of them brutally tortured or raped or child-abused before.
I guess you call that "liberation".
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@Teufelsnachbar667 Of course bombing civilians is OK! It's a great British tradition, and guess why the two "innocent" nations USA and Britain invaded Iraq, invaded Libya, and now try to invade Iran......coincidence?
Notice Gaddhafi is portrayed by Anglo-American Hollywood Media as an "evil person", although he never invaded a country. Bush and Blair, to British-American warcriminals who murdered 1 Million children and parents, got away free!!!
Elberiver11 1 month ago
I dont see the Germans starting any wars since 1945, but the "good" Allies keep invading the world and connecting the last free countries to their criminal central banking system.
London's and Washington's aim is and always has been, to enslave the world by DEBT.
Gaddhafi granted his citizens DEBT-FREE loans! The American & British banksters did not like that, because they are too eager to enslave the world.
MONEY IS THE REASON FOR ALL WARS. Not "fighting bad dictators".
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@ludocrat I'm afraid not,this accidental bombing of civillian London is well documented,so is Churchills outburst when he found out,and his response which was to immediately start the daytime bombing of civilian targets in Berlin.It is also worthy to note that the British were bombing Germany long before Germany bombed Britain.Hitler tried repeatedly to get Britain to ally with Germany.Hitler was of the impression that Britain would ally with Germany to fight against Bolshevism,
silver760 1 month ago
@silver760
The 'accidental' bombing incident is indeed well-documented but in order to make your point you are severely underestimating the damage it caused. Whether or not you are doing it deliberately is moot, but the effect is the same. Your claim in your last post, that Germany was not bombing Britain, presumably you mean in 1940, is plainly nonsense. That they were bombing airfields and infrastructure is neither here nor there. Many hundreds were killed, and many of those were civilians.
ludocrat 1 month ago
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Elberiver11 1 month ago
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@ludocrat Many hundreds were killed? After their country had started bombing Germany. And today their descendants lie about who started.
Poland was none of America's issue, none of Britain's either. Both countries are not anywhere near Poland. Germany had a border with Poland, a border of aggression and war that was created by the Allies in Versailles 1919.
Over 30 percent of what you believe to be "Poles" were in fact millions of Germans and Ukrainians, being held captive by Poland.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@ludocrat First British bombs on Germany:
5th Sep. 1939 on cities of Cuxhaven and Wilhelmshaven
First German bombs back on English cities:
7th Sep. 1940 on London.
USA and Britain won the war, by treason, warcrime and falsehood. History is not written by honesty but by those who win. Which is not necessarily the same.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@ludocrat Please do not compare the strategic bombing by the Luftwaffe with the planned and cold-bloodedly carried out genocide in Dresden or Hiroshima by the Allies.
Dresden was completely defenseless, overcrowded with 500 000 refugees, mainly children and women. Churchill started a Firestorm by dropping Phosphorous on an
undefended city. The Firestorm caused by the British reached 3 miles into the sky and sucked cars, uprooted trees and people up into its centre. Nobody escaped.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@silver760 stimmt alles was du sagst.
Elberiver11 1 month ago
@Catachan1brainleaf Ah yes I forgot about the Condor Legion in Spain. I agree, both sides were as bad as each other, it's stupid for people to argue what was worse, Dresden or Coventry, when people lost their lives in both. The Bombings on both sides were, in part, an attempt to break the will of the people and both sides failed.
Anders2185 6 months ago
@Catachan1brainleaf On September 25th 1939 Germany terror bombed the city of Warsaw, Poland. Historically this was the first air raid upon a civilian population. Yes the Germans bombed London by accident (which the British weren't to know) resulting in the first British civilian casualties, the next night Churchill ordered a raid in retaliation on Berlin which caused negligible damage, Hitler, who apparently didn't know of the raid on London first, was incensed and ordered attacks to hit London
Anders2185 6 months ago
@Anders2185 The first air raid on civilians was Rotterdam and it was Britain that accidentally dropped bombs on Berlin.
STOPTHEEU 5 months ago
@STOPTHEEU September 25 1939 the Luftwaffe bombed Warsaw after heavy resistance from the defenders. The bombing of Rotterdam was 14 May 1940. And no the bombing of Berlin on the night of 25th August 1940 was deliberate in retaliation for the accidental raid on London.
Anders2185 5 months ago