I think that religion and science need not clash. All the scriptures say is that God created the heavens and the earth, which I think is true. He may have used evolution to do so, just the same way that He has used other scientific laws to make the universe work.
@caesarofearth the problem with your argument is where then do you draw the lines when interpreting the holy text? Bible clearly said God created the world under 7 days, and from Abraham gives rise eventually to Jesus, resulting in ~6000 years old Earth. How do you tell the religious people why this thinking is wrong? Which part of biblical passages should be metaphors, and which part shouldn't? That's the difficult question.
@NorseDisbeliever It certainly does not mention that He created the universe using scientific laws, and it doesn't say He does in the scriptures. However, there is no scriptural data against it, and there is data in favor of it. So I'm not claiming it's scripture, I'm just saying that there isn't a scriptoral reason to disbelieve evolution. As a matter of fact, Spencer, the first one to advocate evolution in America, put it in religious terms as he was a christian.
Jesus affirms the old testament. And the old testament claims that god made man in his own image, Adam, and from Adam made Eve. Or was it from dust. I can't recall. :)
You know, man did not evolve from one man and one female. We evolve in groups. This is why fundamentalists take it so serious. Like Ken Ham said. Ultimately, if this part of the bible is untrue, how can I trust the other bits. Answer is, you can't.
@NorseDisbeliever God made man in His image from dust. Microbes probably came from dust, so if after a billion years descendants of that first microbe from dust became humans, that would be God making humans in His image from dust.
If the scientific community was divided over evolution and creation, then this would be a controversial topic. But what we have is entire scientific community against scientifically illiterate masses (who's lives today benefit from research done by the scientific community). Thats not controversy, thats a joke in my opinion... a dangerous joke.
"" I am constantly amazed by the level of stupidity on here.""
I come with reasons and Mr Gatl comes with ad hominem. Amazing that evolutionists have nothing but the fallacies of Appeal to authority and Ad hominem to base their theory. Just a heads up- Eternity in hell will be infinitely horrific.
@j919or -- LOL! You really need to get educated! Don't you realize that your empty threats of 'Hell' are useless against those of us who already know there is no such place? Just because you fear such fantasyland delusions doesn't mean that the rest of rational society does. Christians often forget that the Bible, God and Jesus are all 100% MAN-MADE inventions.
Instead of being 'Born-Again', why don't you just GROW THE FUCK UP?!
Educated in your darkness? For example, your b lather:
1. I made no threats of hell. I just stated what was going ot happen to you. I have no control over it
2. You have no way of knowing that there is no such place, that is just wishful thinking and uttrerly irrational.
3. You give no evidence that God and Jesus are inventions. Bc you have no evidence wishful thinkinjjg wont save u from hell and when your there ull know it is forever
1. Hell like God and Jesus and the BIble are constructs of the human mind. Therefore, discussing Hell as if it's a real place only makes you look like an insane fool.
2. I can prove Hell is nothing but an invention of the human mind.
3. It's up to the Believer to prove there's a God you IDIOT, not the other way around. No one has even come CLOSE to proving God and they won't anytime soon.
4. Your delusional beliefs couldn't be more irrelevant.
@j919or -- Hell is a construct of the human mind and is AT BEST, wishful thinking by MISERABLE people who are incapable of keeping their hatred in check. People create Hell so they can wish it upon those they hate or those they disagree with as you've done. Therefore, Hell isn't a real place it's your personal DELUSION. There's more proof that aliens exist than Hell.
So your belief that Hell exists is merely a belief because it has no link to reality OR any real location.
No. "Intelligent Design" and "Creationism" are both resistance to change. Traditional values are held sacred because they're old and they've survived to become old, because they've been declared sacred(a matter of faith). These ideas have been immune to criticism for far too long. They make science out to be an enemy, because science reveals religion for what it is, wish-thinking, special case pleading, and irrationality.
Learn about the overwhelming evidence for the fact that all life has evolved, and still is, and you'll realize why teaching young-Earth creation beliefs to children is such a bad idea.
Overwhelming? Youre all easily crushed in your arguments. Im nobody and I can do it.There is overwhelming evidence that it couldnt be evolution and there had to be an intelligent designer. Now stand up and be a man and debate me. Creationism is so strong that I could even debate Dawkins and win. Come on you coward!
@j919or Let just say for arguements sake that there is a designer. Why did 99% of all of its designs fail (go extinct). What a terrible designer.
If you dont believe in evolution then you should be grouped with other crazy people like holocaust denyers, those who think the US faked the moon landing, believe the world is secretly run by the illuminati, bigfoot and loch ness believers, think Jerry Garcia was a CIA agent, those who claim to have been abducted by aliens, etc...
@MrKGatl ""99% of all of its designs fail (go extinct)""
Ummm...perhaps it was because of sin that cursed the creation, and perhaps many animals died in the flood and after the flood bc of the intense climate change. Further your estimate of 99% of species going extinct is more speculation to force the theory evolution to fit.
@j919or You think that dinosaurs died out because of sin. No my estimate is not speculation. You are just another fairy tale believer. Nothing has to force evolution to fit. Evolution is a fact. I am constantly amazed by the level of stupidity on here. Of course, maybe you were just joking with me, since you comment is seriously dumb. You probably think that unicorns and fairies died in some flood
And yet no one saw evolution occurr outside of adaptation.And mutations dont increase information. And yet even Dawkins admits that the complexity ofthe universe is overwhelming.And yet you believe inthe fairytale of evolution.Whyelse wouold things grow and increase in developement andthen suddenly for no explanation get old and die?All is answered in thatGod made it and we rebelled and became like demons(you are a prime example)and God subjected it to decay.
@j919or -- Actually, we HAVE seen evolution occur! So you're very much wrong, despite your insistence that you aren't. Remember, you can claim Creationism is fact until you're blue in the face and YOU WILL NEVER PROVE IT!
Evolution has been very much proven and is the basis of all life on the planet, like the BIg Bang. Scientific fact and the Laws of Nature still exist despite your insane beliefs and no amount of denying them will prove the PREPOSTEROUS and unproven theories of religion.
1. You havent seen evolution occur. That is adaptation and that information i s already programmed into the genes. Show me where mutations ever resulted in evolution.
2. I never said that creation was a fact.
3. the big bang is not proven you just believe what u want to believe to help u forget that ur going to hell
4. Evolution is not science. I agree with science and laws of nature.
5. You are loathsome but God can cure ur insanity even still
@j919or -- If you agree with the Laws of Nature, then you would know that it's impossible for God (or any other supreme being) to exist. Why do you think Scientists are reduced to laughter when Creationists try so miserably to prove him? The Big Bang has been proven whether you like it or not, no matter how blue in the face you turn trying to deny it. Same goes for evolution. Science disproved God LONG AGO. Believers are just the last to understand it due to undying faith in NONSENSE.
2. God made those laws and so how do those laws make it impossible for God to exist?
3. I think that ur all blathering fools that deep down know that hell awaits you and are just trying to convince urselves its not real so that u can sleep at night bc u refused to repent and be changed from being a hater of God into a lover of God.
@j919or -- Wrong again, you must have really flunked out of High School didn't you, or were you Hohme skoold by your Christian parents who taught you all the ignorance that's turned you in to such a fool?
God didn't make anything because God doesn't exist.
For me to repent, I would have had to sin, which I've never done -- at least not what your archaic 'morality' instructs you idiots what sin is.
Of course, you're not even a Christian because the things you say would make Jesus VOMIT!
@j919or yep, I always ask evolutionists why there are still monkeys if we evolved from them and NONE of them can respond. In fact this question was asked to one of the best biologists in the world (I forgot his name) and he refused to answer! It's so easy to poke holes in this so called "science"
@spacecowboy95 Yeah bro its like we are talking to demons when we talk to these blokes. They are scrammbling madly to find intellectual cover to appease their raging conscience. They know deep down that they are going to hell but amazingly they deny this awareness and would rather reject Gods free gift of eternal life in favor of a life of sin.
What does it prove: Combing a pig into a pony-tail? Washing your head while maintaining dry hair? Taking laxatives to prove your virility? Wearing trousers when the party calls for culottes? Acting sexy at a funeral home or crematorium? Conceiving a child in a life raft? Living the life of an intercontinental playboy?
No one enjoys to be told that what he or she believes to be true is actually nonsense, no matter how strong and obvious the evidence for it. More than a theological problem, more than a social problem, it is a deeply personal matter. Us non-believers should never give up pointing out the obvious in the natural world, but at the same time we should simply invite the Creationists out there to crack open a book on real science, and let them make up their minds, whatever the result might be.
Aggression is aggression, whether "believer" or "nonbeliever", in whatever is the subject. The power trip is the same. Real objectivity requires detachment from the emotional juice that people tap into. I think we need to see our own selves as we are, cause we are all subject to these emotions, and it clouds our perspective, getting in the way of whatever "truth" we're looking for. Why? Because we're humans, which is still quasi-animal and instinctual, territorial, etc. Its about that!
Ahhh! Mr. Grew On The Back Of Crystals from the documentary Expelled. Oh and because of Social Evolution pushed by Darwin and his family is the reason why we have all these social issues. He really likes ad hominem and poisoning the well. Also why does it always come down to sex with these guys, that just tells me he doesn't like Christianity and Creationists just because he doesn't want to give up his sexual sins that he loves so much. Or maybe just arrogance and pride.
☂☂☂ Even J.F.K.'s "assassin" Lee Oswald drew a paycheck from the C.I.A. ($200 monthly when gasoline was 20¢ per gallon). Osama Bin Laden was murdered, as the assassinated Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto reported to David Frost in a televised interview on 11-2-07. [He often sought kidney dialysis at U.S. military hospitals.] — I have a theory that America's dykes are being subsidized by Osama Bin Lesbian and his cadre of cave-diving muffers.
A theological debate??? - its not a debate at all, evolution is correct - man evolved from apes millions of years ago (study piltdown man and neanderthal man science)...creationist are just stupid! - evolution is happening all around us - many creatures are born with advantageous body changes caused by genes - wing stubs, light sensitive areas (that would evolve in to additional eyes given time) - dogs are bread differently? - if they can be bread larger, they could certainly be bread to fly!
I shall exsect and incise and chop and ax and deflower, defile, rape, ravage, pillage, bother, molest and celebrate CHECKPOINT FREEDOM and CHECKPOINT BONDAGE and CHECKPOINT LIBERTY and CHECKPOINT SANCTITY and CHECKPOINT DOUBLE SCREW...Oooo yeah!!! Abortion is personal, between a mother and her abortionist.
"The Trilateralist Commission is international...(and)...is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateralist Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power - political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical." — Barry Goldwater (1909-1998), U.S. Senator
The strong attack the weak: the unborn and the infirmed. It's the way of elitists, of eugenicists, of Darwinists, of Luciferians, of central bankers. Our great-great grandparents, though a lusty brood, attended church, took the sacrament & obeyed Scripture.
@AffirmedConclusion Our great-great-grandparents also had an average life expectancy of 43 years and lived in a time where the infant mortality rate was nearly 10%. The world doesn't advance through literal interpretations and followings of thousand-year-old texts; it advances through scientific discovery.
@AffirmedConclusion But I have contributed more then enough to society, and at a still young age through charity work. I study the visual arts, engineering, and biology, I am productive. People like you take what is given to you for granted and bite the hand that feeds you.
" The world doesn't advance through literal interpretations and followings of thousand-year-old texts"
Of course it does, that's the most important factor actually, because all early scientist were religiously motivated. Whether they were catholics, or the super scholar Muslims. Science without religious context, or science without theological context is very dry and pointless. You must have some sort of condition where your right brain is not used as much. :(
@dancingwithcalvin - Actually, you're very much wrong. Galileo proved that the earth wasn't the center of the Universe which threatened Christianity so much they imprisoned him for the rest of his life. Science has NEVER been accepted by religion because they are 100% polar opposites. 'God' was the only explanation ancient people had for the Universe because they were too lazy or ignorant to explain it scientifically. Now that we have a rational explanation, there's no need for god.
Actually YOU are very wrong, seeing as Galileo was a scientist because he was inspired by Genesis. His findings did not threaten Christianity, just the churches perception of it. WHere in the bible did jesus say the earth is the center of the universe? The church and God are two different things. Same with Newton. Early man invented gods for explanations for natural events, but, the god of Abraham, and the god of the hindu vedas are different.
@dancingwithcalvin - Galileo proved that the church was wrong (big surprise) and Scientists since the time of Galileo until now have proven the Universe doesn't need a God for any and all of it's explanation. God is the sound people make when they refuse to think anymore. Hawking proved mathematically that it is impossible for God to have ever existed because there was no space or time before the Universe for God to exist in. Believers often forget that it was MAN who made God, not the opposite!
Thats false. Since man has no idea what or who God is, he has no idea what is needed to sustain existence itself, and even so, science cannot answer the "WHY?"
About Hawkings....AHahahahahahahahahaha.... wow. My friend that was rich. Steven Hawkins new book has more hole in it than Swiss cheese. NO respectable physicist took his conclusions seriously. Have you read his new book? And you do realize that if a God existed, tht by definition, he would be outside space and time?
@dancingwithcalvin - Thanks for proving that along with being ignorant about the Laws of Nature and Physics that you're also very ignorant about Stephen Hawking. And if no 'respectable' Physicists take him seriously, then why have the vast majority all had so many great things to say about his book and the equations that prove God is a lie?
You might as well face the fact that no intelligent person can think of Creationism without laughing at the PREPOSTEROUS ideology that surrounds it, u IDIOT!
@dancingwithcalvin - I really don't understand why Christians can be so willfully ignorant about things that really are not that difficult to understand. Hell, a CHILD would have a better understanding of our Universe as long as he hadn't undergone the vast amounts of brainwashing and stupidity that's turned you into a slobbering moron!
Did you know that within the Scientific and Academic community that there IS NO DEBATE about Evolution? There's Creationism which is NONSENSE then there's TRUTH!
What the hell are you talking about? No one even mentioned evolution. I believe in it as do most christians living in the post modern world. You're an idiot.
@dancingwithcalvin -- LOL! Perhaps you've spent too much time whining and complaining so you forgot what the topic of the discussion is?
I'm glad you now admit to accepting Evolution, I was starting to think you were quite the moron! Help me inform the other 90% of Christians who are stuck in the 'missing link' phase left over from the 70's who never bothered learning beyond their high school years.
@ManBMitt even more difficult: There is a debate in scientifc epistemology that not even scientific discovery is altogether rational or important for an increase in wealth and life expectancy. It may very well be more of how many clever people you have and how they come together. That may be more of a issue for development. It may very well be that we had simply a critical concentration of clever heads and they invented enough things to save us from disease and hunger.
@AffirmedConclusion You do have a point about the strong attacking the weak. Now that most people accept evolution, evolutionists attack creationists like crazy. On the other hand, when most people accepted creationism, evolutionists were hushed.
It is really a fight for power instead of knowledge or truth. In our world you can seek knowledge of an evolutionist or creationists freely. We have several outlets for both. The only reason to attack a peron about this topic is for egotistic power.
Its not a debate at all. Its people who dont understand and dont want to understand science VS people who know the other part wont get it anyways so they dont bother to explain it good.
OF course it's about religion! Why else would a theory be so voraciously attacked? And why only evolution and not other theories with much less data to back them up? People attack Evolution because it refutes their literal interpretation of Genesis, something that certain Christians believe is the 'word of God'. If it's false (Genesis), then it throws the rest of their belief system in doubt. The Evolution debate is nothing more than Freudian rationalism. It's rationalism on steroids....
They ask him about evolution, and he goes on about how they go on about cross dressing and abortion. And then he goes on about his own political views. The pot and the kettle.
@theclinger Its a baseless question. Many with a few a exceptions who are actively working on this is theory which make up only a very small fraction of scientist such as evo devos and others, are now challenging the limitations of the modern synthesis. The meeting in Altenberg in 2008 confirmed this proposition for a new extended synthesis.
The Dissent from Darwin list is getting bigger every year with more and more scientist signing on. This is not about religion anymore. Its about science.
@benthemiester Aaaah! You want to pretend that I didn't intentionally mispell the word sh!t. Oh yeah genius, you really got we there! Since you want to side track with spelling and sh!t like that, I will point out your many mistakes. No apostrophe in --"Its".....Wrong placement of words--"Many in a few a exceptions".....fogot the word a--"who are actively working on this is theory which".....didn't use plural--"make".....didn't use plural again-- "scientist"..... go back to 4th grade?
@john17972 I thought you might have had something to say, but your just a weirdo. I dont know what your point is, or what the hell your talking about. Since you dont have anything constructive to say. Your messages will be deleted. What are you like 14 or something? Unbelievable.
@benthemiester YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT? GET A REAL EDUCATION! Did you graduate high school? You forgot to use an apostrophe in the word "don't". The proper word to use in your second sentence was you're.....do you notice the apostrophe?
@whatafart I can imagine lots of renaissance christian scientists interpreted Genesis as an allegory. Have you ever thought the 6 earthly days represent 6 million earthly years?
Of course it's about Theology. Christians don't make this big of a fuss about Physics and Chemistry and other branches of science even though those are even more theoretical. People for whatever reason think evolution is directly attacking Christianity.
The foundation of our faith begins with Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning God...." We see that God created everything perfect, something terrible happened, and God reveals then His great plan to reconcile man back to Himself, and restore all of what sin had done. Evolution is simply used by some to explain everything away as being a natural inevitable process, which contradicts directly everything we read in Genesis, and greater plan of God.
@DeaconCliff yet you base your argument on the thesis that the bible's spiritual message is irrefutably true and has already been proven by it's mere existance. How can you argue with such a flawed thesis?
I guess you could say I am not really arguing, my comment is in response to what you said earlier. We all need some foundation in which our beliefs need to begin from. I am definitely not the arguing type, but I think it is safe for us to agree to disagree that evolution and creation simply are not compatible. Either one is true and happened, or is simply not true.
Homochirality proves evolution can never happen..but this is now separate from there lies..evolutionists would rather believe in some chemistry unknown to science than intelligence..they want to explain all life and how it changed but not the first cell..there's some stubborn logic...they dont want in there theory because evolution falls apart.. evolutionists have way more blind faith.,thats why they dont want it part of evolution..evolution falls apart then
It's refreshing to hear an INTELLIGENT AND SOUND ATHEIST instead of these pseudo-atheist,Dawkins/Hitchens worshiping hacks on YT.
Reminds me of 30-35 years ago when the word "atheist" implied "an intelligent person who sees things differently."
Today,you atheists have allowed your good name to be hijacked by Dawkins and other illogical religiophobic hacks.They want your name,but are too intellectually lazy and unsophisticated to earn it.
@EastofForever Excuse me Mr. Ranter, I dare say that Dawkins/Hitchens aren't exaclty bad at their respective fields. There are some people who spout criticisms of Dawkins and Hitchens, and I for one finally want to learn why.
Why are Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and so on, bad examples of atheists? Where are their fallacies and signs of a lack of intelligence?
@Solensherre I don't think your ass is the only thing that's lame: are your arms broken too? It's all over YT and the internet why those two are certifiable hacks. You just don't want to look obviously, no doubt whatsoever.
Gee....I wonder if Mr. Lameass is baiting me for a little diatribe from him?...NOOO! Not him!!?? ....Not such a bastion of free thought??
Go away asshole--> and fix your lame ass a and broken arms.
@EastofForever My apologies, since you clearly inteded a serious factual criticism of those who enjoy what and how Dawkins and Hitchens do...
If you are serious in thinking the internet is full of factual criticisms of work which go beyond "I think they are too harsh, shouldn't people get to believe what they want?" then I believe you are mistaken, since all sources are similar to yours in merely stating that they don't like them in rather colourful terms. So please, prove me wrong...
@EastofForever I am at my wits end, how need I phrase my question for the suitable respect and consideration required to recieve a valid answer?
I dare say I have plenty of love and respect for atheists from David Hume to Bertrand Russell, but I don't think that the modern atheists are especially bad representatives...
If oyu disagree, I would like to know why, and perhaps prove me an idiot through sources on the internet and YT as you claim are full of criticisms...
@kalimul I dare say the depths of considerations on absolute truth and whatnot is hard to discuss in the limited form of less than or equal to 500 characters...
that is may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself. "
That perfectly describes my experience. There is a woman by the name of Jackie Pullinger who has been healing drug addicts in Hong Kong for over 30 years now. They come off of the drugs cold turkey without any withdrawal symptoms through people praying over them. I have links to a documentary made about her on my youtube account. It can be viewed there.
Since then, I have had a few other experiences validating God's existence. In about 1995 I was doing Bible study and came across Ephesians 3:19 in the amplified Bible that describes the experience I had in 1972.
Ephesians 3:19 Amplified: "That you may really come to know--practically, through experience for yourselves--the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge (without experience); that you may be filled through all your being unto all the fullness of God---
That was April. Summer past and it was time to sign in at the college dorm for a room for the fall semester. I walked into the dorm and began filling out info to get a room. Someone softly said my name and I turned around and it was Jim. He had been saved over the summer and wanted to get into Bible study with me. We became friends and met together several times a week. WE prayed, read the Bible, exercised together, etc. Last time I saw him was in 1980.
I had tried to talk to a guy by the name of Jim a couple of weeks before this about Christ, but he wasn't open to it. So, I prayed for Jim that night. As I prayed for his salvation, God told me through the Holy Spirit in me that Jim was going to be redeemed. I had never had this experience either and didn't know what to think about it. After this I went back to the house. On the 3rd day sometime close to noon, God's Presence left me almost as suddenly as it had come.
I didn't know things like this happened and didn't know how to put it into context of my life experience. But, I didn't need to pray anymore, my needs had been met. This strong sense of God's Presence lasted 3 days. I drove back to the house and went to bed. His Presence was with me for the exam, so I got through that. The next night I went back to this same park to pray again. I thought I was in a special state and wanted to make use of the power I sensed.
After a short period of time I realized there was just too much material to cover, even if I stayed up all night. Distraught and in considerable emotional pain, thinking about what the next day would be like for me, I went out by myself to a roadside park to pray. I killed the engine of my car and as i started to audibly pray to God, He filled me with His Presence. It was intense, very strong feelings of love, security, and sense of well being coming from Him.
I lived with 3 other Christian guys in a rented house while going to school. One was discipling me. Too much was demanded from me over a period of time, and I began spending more time with spiritual matters than my school work. One night in April, 1972, I needed to study for a cost accounting exam to be given the next day. But, I was pressured into going to a Christian fellowship instead. After getting back home at about 10:00pm, I started studying for the exam.
I assume you did note the quote from Jeremiah, that God would make a new covenant, unlike the old one. That i isn't made up by a committee in the 3rd century A.D. There are other old testament scriptures which prophesy the coming Christ also, most notably in Isaiah.
Ok, here is how I know God exists, and I fully understand you are not going to buy this either. Doesn't matter. As a fairly new Christian, I became involved with a Christian organization in college between 1971 and 1973.
I don't know the history of Islam, but I suspect they worship the same God, but not Jesus. Ishmael was Abraham's first child, born through a servant. He was Arab. God promised to bless him through many descendants as well, so I suspect that is where Islam came from, through the descendants of Ishmael. But that is a guess, I have not studied Islam.
I posted what I did to explain how the Old Testament and New Testament tie together in Christian belief.
@dp19032k9 No, im afraid not, the council of nicaea did a miserable job of hamming the two books together, and ill add this was a dreadful mistake, you wold have been vetter off not shackleing yourselves to the old testement and moving away from the fuck up of a god the old testement god is.
You are an atheist too, your atheistic about Islam and Hinduism etc etc, i just go one religion more.
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. HE SACRIFICED FOR THEIR SINS ONCE FOR ALL WHEN HE OFFERED HIMSELF.
Scripture is clear that the sins from the Old Testament saints, including Moses, were left unpunished until Christ came. Those sins were paid for on Christ's cross, the same as New Testament saints. So, the way of salvation has been the same since the beginning, by Christ.
There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because IN HIS FORBEARANCE HE HAD LEFT THE SINS COMMITTED BEFOREHAND UNPUNISHED.
This states God had left the Old Testament sins unpunished until Christ came.
@dp19032k9 Christ cannot take your responsibility away, you might be a peado and abuse children but this cannot be erased by the death of an innocent. You are a sick man if you abuse children and if caught in this world you will be punished.
No man can take this act away from you, vicarious redemption is a sick idea.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But, now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
This new covenant is the one which comes through faith in Christ.
@dp19032k9 Again proof of Christs existence would be a good start here, but even if you could show that Jesus existed and he actually was the son fo god and not just deified at the council of Nicaea, it would not make vicarious redemption acceptable.
The sick and abhorrant religion that is christianity will pass away into the past, just like all other religions have done so, if we have to wait a few more generations for people like you to die then so be it..
"The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, "declares the Lord.
@dp19032k9 Bible crap, i have said so many times you cant use the bible as evidence of anything until you show that the bible is not some made up story..
If this was the case then we would have to accept ALL religious texts as some sort of authority, i dont think so.
But, it didn't permanently atone for those sins. A greater sacrifice was necessary to permanently atone for man's sins.
So, in time, Christ came, God in the flesh, to do for man what man could not do for himself. He lived a sinless life, in unbroken fellowship with God and fulfilled the "law" the Old Testament law.
Then on Passover, when the Jews were killing lambs and goats to remember their deliverance from the Angel of death in Egypt, God's sacrificial lamb, Jesus was slain for mans sin.
@dp19032k9 Vicarious redemption, the sickest of all cults i have looked at, how on earth you can even want to worship a fuckup like this is totally out of my field.
No being, no matter how good or perfect can take away ANY responsibility, if you wrong someone or do something wrong in life its YOUR responsibility, you can delude yourself that some willing patsy can take away your act but i and every other atheist the world over can see you are responsible.
5. God introduces His first dispensation of religion through Moses via the 10 Commandments and the Jewish laws. God introduces a second dispensation of religion through Christ to replace the first.
The purpose of the Old Testament laws, according to Christ and the Apostle Paul, was to be a tutor to teach us that we need a redeemer, and that the blood of animals could never take away man's sins. Ceremonially the animal blood God accepted for one year to "cover" a man's sin.
@dp19032k9 Again with a god accepting blood for evil acts?
Are you reading at all what you are writing, what a divine all powerful being would need with a payment in blood is just fucking mind boggling.
This is not in the resumé of a pure and good being, this is not what you would place on the desire list of a god. The strangest thing is, why would you ever worship a being that wants blood payments?
Sick, twisted and not worthy of worship by any stretch of the imagination.
3. Moses became the mediator between God and the children of Israel [man]. Christ is the mediator between God and man.
4. Moses delivered Israel out of slavery and bondage to the Egyptians. He performed a number of miracles. Christ delivers man from slavery and bondage to sin, and performed a variety of miracles.
@dp19032k9 Lets chick mohammed int here as well shall we?
Islam has as much claim to being true as chrisitianity or any religion.
A miracle by definition is the suspension of the natural law. We do not see this at all in nature or have been able to prove miracles have ever taken place.
All of this is a picture of what was to come. There are many parallels between Moses and Christ.
1. When Moses was born there was a decree by the king of Egypt that all male babies were to be killed. When Christ was born, King Herod had issued a decree that all male children up to the age of 2 should be killed.
2. Moses was in the wilderness for 40 years being tested and made ready for God’s purposes. Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days being tempted by Satan.
@dp19032k9 Ill give you another parallel, we have no good contempory historical or factual hard evidence for either person. All the evidence we do have is from books with a vested interest in the propagation of the religion.
Leviticus 17:11 states, "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life."
So, this first dispensation of religion is a picture of what would come in the future, that is Christ. Animal blood had to be shed annually for the sins of the people. Moses was the mediator between God and man (the Jews), He was the deliverer from bondage for the Jews.
This type of reasoning belongs in the geocentric bronze age it was made up in. The sooner we leave this tripe behind the better, its almost comical and hard to parody but a divine all powerful being asking for a goats sacrifice is just cringeworthy.
Its almost if you are not thinking about what you are writing.
Abraham's descendants, the Jews, came under slavery and oppression in Egypt. Moses was born and eventually God called him to lead the Jews out of Egypt and save them from slavery. Once this was accomplished, God used Moses to institute His first dispensation of religion, the 10 commandments and other Jewish laws, including the sacrifice of blood of bulls, goats, lambs, etc.to make atonement for the sins of the Jews.
In Genesis 15:5 God promises Abram (later Abraham) that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the heavens. Then it says that He believed God and this belief was credited to him as righteousness. This is the promise of spiritual descendants through Christ. This promise was given 430 years before the 10 Commandments and other Jewish laws were given by Moses.
Salvation is based on faith in the promise of God, not works of the law and it has always been this way.
@dp19032k9 Christianity is a basterdized form of Judaism. As is islam.
The bible plagurises the Torah.
Shame your 10 commandments didnt contain, thou shall not own another human being, or thou shall not abuse children, proof again any normal person is more morale than your dick of a god.
The Old Testament and New Testament are Testaments to the same God. Salvation has always been the same, through faith in Christ, since the creation of the world. Old testament saints were saved through Christ, the same as New Testament saints. Yes, Moses was a Christian.
What a load of shit
Entropy56 10 hours ago
Idiot. Yeah Evolution has to do with human psychology. Right. idiot.
wclayf 2 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Evolution is an absolute disgrace to science.
Objects never order anything, mutations never order anything and natural selection will only select what has already been ordered.
Evolution is so irrational that it should be removed from all classrooms.
watch?v=HoKVVYJ8KJM
JungleJargon 3 months ago
Keep dreaming about that louder voice in the middle. All we are hearing now is louder voices at each end.
dlbattle100 3 months ago
I think that religion and science need not clash. All the scriptures say is that God created the heavens and the earth, which I think is true. He may have used evolution to do so, just the same way that He has used other scientific laws to make the universe work.
caesarofearth 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@caesarofearth the problem with your argument is where then do you draw the lines when interpreting the holy text? Bible clearly said God created the world under 7 days, and from Abraham gives rise eventually to Jesus, resulting in ~6000 years old Earth. How do you tell the religious people why this thinking is wrong? Which part of biblical passages should be metaphors, and which part shouldn't? That's the difficult question.
Casshyr 2 months ago
@caesarofearth
That isn't all it says. If you think so, then you need to read the scriptures again.
NorseDisbeliever 3 weeks ago
@NorseDisbeliever It certainly does not mention that He created the universe using scientific laws, and it doesn't say He does in the scriptures. However, there is no scriptural data against it, and there is data in favor of it. So I'm not claiming it's scripture, I'm just saying that there isn't a scriptoral reason to disbelieve evolution. As a matter of fact, Spencer, the first one to advocate evolution in America, put it in religious terms as he was a christian.
caesarofearth 3 weeks ago
@caesarofearth
Matthews 5:17-18
Genisis 1:26-27
Jesus affirms the old testament. And the old testament claims that god made man in his own image, Adam, and from Adam made Eve. Or was it from dust. I can't recall. :)
You know, man did not evolve from one man and one female. We evolve in groups. This is why fundamentalists take it so serious. Like Ken Ham said. Ultimately, if this part of the bible is untrue, how can I trust the other bits. Answer is, you can't.
NorseDisbeliever 3 weeks ago
@NorseDisbeliever God made man in His image from dust. Microbes probably came from dust, so if after a billion years descendants of that first microbe from dust became humans, that would be God making humans in His image from dust.
caesarofearth 3 weeks ago
@caesarofearth
Ah, but microbes are not man. And evolution is not abiogenesis.
NorseDisbeliever 3 weeks ago
If the scientific community was divided over evolution and creation, then this would be a controversial topic. But what we have is entire scientific community against scientifically illiterate masses (who's lives today benefit from research done by the scientific community). Thats not controversy, thats a joke in my opinion... a dangerous joke.
OptimalElement 4 months ago
"" I am constantly amazed by the level of stupidity on here.""
I come with reasons and Mr Gatl comes with ad hominem. Amazing that evolutionists have nothing but the fallacies of Appeal to authority and Ad hominem to base their theory. Just a heads up- Eternity in hell will be infinitely horrific.
j919or 5 months ago
@j919or -- LOL! You really need to get educated! Don't you realize that your empty threats of 'Hell' are useless against those of us who already know there is no such place? Just because you fear such fantasyland delusions doesn't mean that the rest of rational society does. Christians often forget that the Bible, God and Jesus are all 100% MAN-MADE inventions.
Instead of being 'Born-Again', why don't you just GROW THE FUCK UP?!
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal "" You really need to get educated""
Educated in your darkness? For example, your b lather:
1. I made no threats of hell. I just stated what was going ot happen to you. I have no control over it
2. You have no way of knowing that there is no such place, that is just wishful thinking and uttrerly irrational.
3. You give no evidence that God and Jesus are inventions. Bc you have no evidence wishful thinkinjjg wont save u from hell and when your there ull know it is forever
j919or 4 months ago
@j919or -
1. Hell like God and Jesus and the BIble are constructs of the human mind. Therefore, discussing Hell as if it's a real place only makes you look like an insane fool.
2. I can prove Hell is nothing but an invention of the human mind.
3. It's up to the Believer to prove there's a God you IDIOT, not the other way around. No one has even come CLOSE to proving God and they won't anytime soon.
4. Your delusional beliefs couldn't be more irrelevant.
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal ""I can prove Hell is nothing ""
Well then go right ahead. ANd while ur at it tell us why animals arent making these constructs. Tell us whether or not you WANT God ot be proven.
j919or 4 months ago
@j919or -- Hell is a construct of the human mind and is AT BEST, wishful thinking by MISERABLE people who are incapable of keeping their hatred in check. People create Hell so they can wish it upon those they hate or those they disagree with as you've done. Therefore, Hell isn't a real place it's your personal DELUSION. There's more proof that aliens exist than Hell.
So your belief that Hell exists is merely a belief because it has no link to reality OR any real location.
Show me photos though!
ColonPal 4 months ago
No. "Intelligent Design" and "Creationism" are both resistance to change. Traditional values are held sacred because they're old and they've survived to become old, because they've been declared sacred(a matter of faith). These ideas have been immune to criticism for far too long. They make science out to be an enemy, because science reveals religion for what it is, wish-thinking, special case pleading, and irrationality.
LithiumLogica 5 months ago
Comment removed
mrabdrum 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@mrabdrum ""history deniers that shouldn't be taken seriously.""
bald assertions shouldnt be taken seriously
j919or 5 months ago
Learn about the overwhelming evidence for the fact that all life has evolved, and still is, and you'll realize why teaching young-Earth creation beliefs to children is such a bad idea.
ndrthrdr1 6 months ago
@ndrthrdr1 ""overwhelming evidence ""
Overwhelming? Youre all easily crushed in your arguments. Im nobody and I can do it.There is overwhelming evidence that it couldnt be evolution and there had to be an intelligent designer. Now stand up and be a man and debate me. Creationism is so strong that I could even debate Dawkins and win. Come on you coward!
j919or 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@j919or "Youre all easily crushed in your arguments. Im nobody and I can do it."
I don't debate nobodies - for the same reason that I don't argue with cats. Read a book (one written AFTER the Bronze Age).
ndrthrdr1 5 months ago
@j919or Let just say for arguements sake that there is a designer. Why did 99% of all of its designs fail (go extinct). What a terrible designer.
If you dont believe in evolution then you should be grouped with other crazy people like holocaust denyers, those who think the US faked the moon landing, believe the world is secretly run by the illuminati, bigfoot and loch ness believers, think Jerry Garcia was a CIA agent, those who claim to have been abducted by aliens, etc...
MrKGatl 5 months ago
@MrKGatl ""99% of all of its designs fail (go extinct)""
Ummm...perhaps it was because of sin that cursed the creation, and perhaps many animals died in the flood and after the flood bc of the intense climate change. Further your estimate of 99% of species going extinct is more speculation to force the theory evolution to fit.
j919or 5 months ago
@j919or You think that dinosaurs died out because of sin. No my estimate is not speculation. You are just another fairy tale believer. Nothing has to force evolution to fit. Evolution is a fact. I am constantly amazed by the level of stupidity on here. Of course, maybe you were just joking with me, since you comment is seriously dumb. You probably think that unicorns and fairies died in some flood
MrKGatl 5 months ago
@MrKGatl ""Evolution is a fact""
And yet no one saw evolution occurr outside of adaptation.And mutations dont increase information. And yet even Dawkins admits that the complexity ofthe universe is overwhelming.And yet you believe inthe fairytale of evolution.Whyelse wouold things grow and increase in developement andthen suddenly for no explanation get old and die?All is answered in thatGod made it and we rebelled and became like demons(you are a prime example)and God subjected it to decay.
j919or 5 months ago
@j919or -- Actually, we HAVE seen evolution occur! So you're very much wrong, despite your insistence that you aren't. Remember, you can claim Creationism is fact until you're blue in the face and YOU WILL NEVER PROVE IT!
Evolution has been very much proven and is the basis of all life on the planet, like the BIg Bang. Scientific fact and the Laws of Nature still exist despite your insane beliefs and no amount of denying them will prove the PREPOSTEROUS and unproven theories of religion.
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal "" HAVE seen evolution occur""
1. You havent seen evolution occur. That is adaptation and that information i s already programmed into the genes. Show me where mutations ever resulted in evolution.
2. I never said that creation was a fact.
3. the big bang is not proven you just believe what u want to believe to help u forget that ur going to hell
4. Evolution is not science. I agree with science and laws of nature.
5. You are loathsome but God can cure ur insanity even still
j919or 4 months ago
@j919or -- If you agree with the Laws of Nature, then you would know that it's impossible for God (or any other supreme being) to exist. Why do you think Scientists are reduced to laughter when Creationists try so miserably to prove him? The Big Bang has been proven whether you like it or not, no matter how blue in the face you turn trying to deny it. Same goes for evolution. Science disproved God LONG AGO. Believers are just the last to understand it due to undying faith in NONSENSE.
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal ""Big Bang has been proven ""
1. The big bang is contrary to the laws of nature
2. God made those laws and so how do those laws make it impossible for God to exist?
3. I think that ur all blathering fools that deep down know that hell awaits you and are just trying to convince urselves its not real so that u can sleep at night bc u refused to repent and be changed from being a hater of God into a lover of God.
j919or 4 months ago
@j919or -- Wrong again, you must have really flunked out of High School didn't you, or were you Hohme skoold by your Christian parents who taught you all the ignorance that's turned you in to such a fool?
God didn't make anything because God doesn't exist.
For me to repent, I would have had to sin, which I've never done -- at least not what your archaic 'morality' instructs you idiots what sin is.
Of course, you're not even a Christian because the things you say would make Jesus VOMIT!
ColonPal 4 months ago
@j919or yep, I always ask evolutionists why there are still monkeys if we evolved from them and NONE of them can respond. In fact this question was asked to one of the best biologists in the world (I forgot his name) and he refused to answer! It's so easy to poke holes in this so called "science"
spacecowboy95 5 months ago
@spacecowboy95 Yeah bro its like we are talking to demons when we talk to these blokes. They are scrammbling madly to find intellectual cover to appease their raging conscience. They know deep down that they are going to hell but amazingly they deny this awareness and would rather reject Gods free gift of eternal life in favor of a life of sin.
j919or 5 months ago
@j919or Uh-Huh.
You know, I'm not actually a creationist. I just posted that comment to make the point that you know nothing about the theory of evolution.
For one thing, the theory of evolution doesn't say that we evolved from monkeys, it says we share a common ancestor with them.
And secondly, that whole thing about "the biologist who refused to answer" was completely made up. You losers will believe anything.
You're an idiot. Bye.
spacecowboy95 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
What does it prove: Combing a pig into a pony-tail? Washing your head while maintaining dry hair? Taking laxatives to prove your virility? Wearing trousers when the party calls for culottes? Acting sexy at a funeral home or crematorium? Conceiving a child in a life raft? Living the life of an intercontinental playboy?
AffirmedConclusion 7 months ago
No one enjoys to be told that what he or she believes to be true is actually nonsense, no matter how strong and obvious the evidence for it. More than a theological problem, more than a social problem, it is a deeply personal matter. Us non-believers should never give up pointing out the obvious in the natural world, but at the same time we should simply invite the Creationists out there to crack open a book on real science, and let them make up their minds, whatever the result might be.
bersa888 7 months ago
Aggression is aggression, whether "believer" or "nonbeliever", in whatever is the subject. The power trip is the same. Real objectivity requires detachment from the emotional juice that people tap into. I think we need to see our own selves as we are, cause we are all subject to these emotions, and it clouds our perspective, getting in the way of whatever "truth" we're looking for. Why? Because we're humans, which is still quasi-animal and instinctual, territorial, etc. Its about that!
fsmtdaler 7 months ago 2
THRILLER! THRILLER NIGHT! 2:43 LOL :)
SilkyScreen 8 months ago
Ahhh! Mr. Grew On The Back Of Crystals from the documentary Expelled. Oh and because of Social Evolution pushed by Darwin and his family is the reason why we have all these social issues. He really likes ad hominem and poisoning the well. Also why does it always come down to sex with these guys, that just tells me he doesn't like Christianity and Creationists just because he doesn't want to give up his sexual sins that he loves so much. Or maybe just arrogance and pride.
Devin82m 8 months ago
☂☂☂ Even J.F.K.'s "assassin" Lee Oswald drew a paycheck from the C.I.A. ($200 monthly when gasoline was 20¢ per gallon). Osama Bin Laden was murdered, as the assassinated Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto reported to David Frost in a televised interview on 11-2-07. [He often sought kidney dialysis at U.S. military hospitals.] — I have a theory that America's dykes are being subsidized by Osama Bin Lesbian and his cadre of cave-diving muffers.
AffirmedConclusion 9 months ago
A theological debate??? - its not a debate at all, evolution is correct - man evolved from apes millions of years ago (study piltdown man and neanderthal man science)...creationist are just stupid! - evolution is happening all around us - many creatures are born with advantageous body changes caused by genes - wing stubs, light sensitive areas (that would evolve in to additional eyes given time) - dogs are bread differently? - if they can be bread larger, they could certainly be bread to fly!
TREACLE97 9 months ago
Interesting, thank you very much!
sqccccccccc 9 months ago
This is a new way to look at it.
purewilderness 9 months ago
I shall exsect and incise and chop and ax and deflower, defile, rape, ravage, pillage, bother, molest and celebrate CHECKPOINT FREEDOM and CHECKPOINT BONDAGE and CHECKPOINT LIBERTY and CHECKPOINT SANCTITY and CHECKPOINT DOUBLE SCREW...Oooo yeah!!! Abortion is personal, between a mother and her abortionist.
AffirmedConclusion 9 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion huh... did ur mom miss her appointment? :D
bigbluefungus 9 months ago
@bigbluefungus : What does ur mean?
AffirmedConclusion 9 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion "ur".. it's short for "your"......
bigbluefungus 9 months ago
@mjhallfs : You should read better books.
AffirmedConclusion 9 months ago
Does evolution's legitimacy really matter? No. Things are what they are. No go out and accomplish something.
cosg9531 10 months ago
@cosg9531 Yes, it does matter. Evolution puts bullsh!t religions to shame and shame is what they deserve.
john17972 9 months ago
"The Trilateralist Commission is international...(and)...is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateralist Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power - political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical." — Barry Goldwater (1909-1998), U.S. Senator
AffirmedConclusion 10 months ago
The strong attack the weak: the unborn and the infirmed. It's the way of elitists, of eugenicists, of Darwinists, of Luciferians, of central bankers. Our great-great grandparents, though a lusty brood, attended church, took the sacrament & obeyed Scripture.
AffirmedConclusion 10 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion Our great-great-grandparents also had an average life expectancy of 43 years and lived in a time where the infant mortality rate was nearly 10%. The world doesn't advance through literal interpretations and followings of thousand-year-old texts; it advances through scientific discovery.
ManBMitt 10 months ago 30
@ManBMitt : Science = knowledge (as perceived by the human brain). That's all it can mean.
AffirmedConclusion 10 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion Science is what allows you to hypocritically communicate with the rest of the world using the internet.
zzzIdividedbyzerozzz 10 months ago
@zzzIdividedbyzerozzz : You haven't invented anything.
AffirmedConclusion 10 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion But I have contributed more then enough to society, and at a still young age through charity work. I study the visual arts, engineering, and biology, I am productive. People like you take what is given to you for granted and bite the hand that feeds you.
zzzIdividedbyzerozzz 10 months ago
@zzzIdividedbyzerozzz : Then, as you've expended your usefulness, it's time for suicide.
AffirmedConclusion 10 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion ur messed up...
bigbluefungus 9 months ago
@bigbluefungus : Ur?
AffirmedConclusion 9 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion i explained this already..
and dont tell people to commit suicide.. not cool..
bigbluefungus 9 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion And that is far better than blind faith in some bullsh!t religion (as perceived by the human brain).
john17972 9 months ago
@ManBMitt : Renounce your religion and find a job.
AffirmedConclusion 9 months ago
@ManBMitt you're a smart organism lol!
kahluaqueen 6 months ago
@ManBMitt
" The world doesn't advance through literal interpretations and followings of thousand-year-old texts"
Of course it does, that's the most important factor actually, because all early scientist were religiously motivated. Whether they were catholics, or the super scholar Muslims. Science without religious context, or science without theological context is very dry and pointless. You must have some sort of condition where your right brain is not used as much. :(
dancingwithcalvin 4 months ago
@dancingwithcalvin You don't need religion to motivate you. The universe is beautiful and complex, even seen through my godless eyes.
maxergud 4 months ago
@dancingwithcalvin - Actually, you're very much wrong. Galileo proved that the earth wasn't the center of the Universe which threatened Christianity so much they imprisoned him for the rest of his life. Science has NEVER been accepted by religion because they are 100% polar opposites. 'God' was the only explanation ancient people had for the Universe because they were too lazy or ignorant to explain it scientifically. Now that we have a rational explanation, there's no need for god.
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal
Actually YOU are very wrong, seeing as Galileo was a scientist because he was inspired by Genesis. His findings did not threaten Christianity, just the churches perception of it. WHere in the bible did jesus say the earth is the center of the universe? The church and God are two different things. Same with Newton. Early man invented gods for explanations for natural events, but, the god of Abraham, and the god of the hindu vedas are different.
dancingwithcalvin 4 months ago
@dancingwithcalvin - Galileo proved that the church was wrong (big surprise) and Scientists since the time of Galileo until now have proven the Universe doesn't need a God for any and all of it's explanation. God is the sound people make when they refuse to think anymore. Hawking proved mathematically that it is impossible for God to have ever existed because there was no space or time before the Universe for God to exist in. Believers often forget that it was MAN who made God, not the opposite!
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal
Thats false. Since man has no idea what or who God is, he has no idea what is needed to sustain existence itself, and even so, science cannot answer the "WHY?"
About Hawkings....AHahahahahahahahahaha.... wow. My friend that was rich. Steven Hawkins new book has more hole in it than Swiss cheese. NO respectable physicist took his conclusions seriously. Have you read his new book? And you do realize that if a God existed, tht by definition, he would be outside space and time?
dancingwithcalvin 4 months ago
@dancingwithcalvin - Thanks for proving that along with being ignorant about the Laws of Nature and Physics that you're also very ignorant about Stephen Hawking. And if no 'respectable' Physicists take him seriously, then why have the vast majority all had so many great things to say about his book and the equations that prove God is a lie?
You might as well face the fact that no intelligent person can think of Creationism without laughing at the PREPOSTEROUS ideology that surrounds it, u IDIOT!
ColonPal 4 months ago
@dancingwithcalvin - I really don't understand why Christians can be so willfully ignorant about things that really are not that difficult to understand. Hell, a CHILD would have a better understanding of our Universe as long as he hadn't undergone the vast amounts of brainwashing and stupidity that's turned you into a slobbering moron!
Did you know that within the Scientific and Academic community that there IS NO DEBATE about Evolution? There's Creationism which is NONSENSE then there's TRUTH!
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal
What the hell are you talking about? No one even mentioned evolution. I believe in it as do most christians living in the post modern world. You're an idiot.
dancingwithcalvin 4 months ago
@dancingwithcalvin -- LOL! Perhaps you've spent too much time whining and complaining so you forgot what the topic of the discussion is?
I'm glad you now admit to accepting Evolution, I was starting to think you were quite the moron! Help me inform the other 90% of Christians who are stuck in the 'missing link' phase left over from the 70's who never bothered learning beyond their high school years.
All they need is simple education.
;->)
ColonPal 4 months ago
@ColonPal
Oh right. Well you see I was raised catholic, and the catholic church excepted evolution back in the 40's.
dancingwithcalvin 4 months ago
@ManBMitt even more difficult: There is a debate in scientifc epistemology that not even scientific discovery is altogether rational or important for an increase in wealth and life expectancy. It may very well be more of how many clever people you have and how they come together. That may be more of a issue for development. It may very well be that we had simply a critical concentration of clever heads and they invented enough things to save us from disease and hunger.
Tracchofyre 4 months ago
Comment removed
john17972 9 months ago
@john17972 : Darwinism is getting too pervasive as Darwin's pigs are hogging the trough of public funding.
AffirmedConclusion 9 months ago
@AffirmedConclusion You do have a point about the strong attacking the weak. Now that most people accept evolution, evolutionists attack creationists like crazy. On the other hand, when most people accepted creationism, evolutionists were hushed.
It is really a fight for power instead of knowledge or truth. In our world you can seek knowledge of an evolutionist or creationists freely. We have several outlets for both. The only reason to attack a peron about this topic is for egotistic power.
DraigonBoy 8 months ago
@Omnicron777 Damn, must've been some other guy with an R in a name or something.
crazyinsane500 10 months ago
Michael Ruse? wasn't this the douche in Expelled who said we came from rocks? This is the guy creationists parrot?
Does anyone have a flashlight? I think his head got stuck up his own ass.
crazyinsane500 10 months ago
He believes in Global Warming
onefodderunit 10 months ago
Its not a debate at all. Its people who dont understand and dont want to understand science VS people who know the other part wont get it anyways so they dont bother to explain it good.
gulbirk 11 months ago
The Dare Island Enigma is a novel concerning an alternative view of evolution see
video book trailer
dltanner99 11 months ago
OF course it's about religion! Why else would a theory be so voraciously attacked? And why only evolution and not other theories with much less data to back them up? People attack Evolution because it refutes their literal interpretation of Genesis, something that certain Christians believe is the 'word of God'. If it's false (Genesis), then it throws the rest of their belief system in doubt. The Evolution debate is nothing more than Freudian rationalism. It's rationalism on steroids....
pillsareyummy 1 year ago
They ask him about evolution, and he goes on about how they go on about cross dressing and abortion. And then he goes on about his own political views. The pot and the kettle.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester The question was about a solution for the conflict between the two sides that hold evolution or creation as their position.
Your gonna have to try better than that to find a baseless accusation.
theclinger 1 year ago
@theclinger Its a baseless question. Many with a few a exceptions who are actively working on this is theory which make up only a very small fraction of scientist such as evo devos and others, are now challenging the limitations of the modern synthesis. The meeting in Altenberg in 2008 confirmed this proposition for a new extended synthesis.
The Dissent from Darwin list is getting bigger every year with more and more scientist signing on. This is not about religion anymore. Its about science.
benthemiester 1 year ago
@benthemiester You are just simply, a lying sack of sh!t, and I don't say that very often.
john17972 9 months ago
@john17972 Dont be a hit and run coward who cant even spell shit right. Be a man and state your case, internet tough guy.
benthemiester 9 months ago
@benthemiester
benthemiester 9 months ago
@benthemiester Aaaah! You want to pretend that I didn't intentionally mispell the word sh!t. Oh yeah genius, you really got we there! Since you want to side track with spelling and sh!t like that, I will point out your many mistakes. No apostrophe in --"Its".....Wrong placement of words--"Many in a few a exceptions".....fogot the word a--"who are actively working on this is theory which".....didn't use plural--"make".....didn't use plural again-- "scientist"..... go back to 4th grade?
john17972 9 months ago
@john17972 I thought you might have had something to say, but your just a weirdo. I dont know what your point is, or what the hell your talking about. Since you dont have anything constructive to say. Your messages will be deleted. What are you like 14 or something? Unbelievable.
benthemiester 9 months ago
@benthemiester YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT? GET A REAL EDUCATION! Did you graduate high school? You forgot to use an apostrophe in the word "don't". The proper word to use in your second sentence was you're.....do you notice the apostrophe?
john17972 9 months ago
the debate between creationism and evolution is not a theological debate? well it's not a debate at all is it. creationism is obviously nonsense
little69111 1 year ago 24
@little69111 Evolution is non-sense
prgomezwarrior 7 months ago
@prgomezwarrior thanks for clearing that up.
little69111 7 months ago
@little69111 Evolution is non-sense
prgomezwarrior 7 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@prgomezwarrior Only to those who don't understand it.
csmcmillion 6 months ago
@little69111 ""well it's not a debate at all is it""
translation: I have no viable evidence and wont debate.
j919or 5 months ago
he thats the man that things the first living cell comes crystals lol he is funny
jesusLostChildren777 1 year ago
Accurate tree ring records of age are available for a period extending 9,000 years into the past.
baalsebub1st 1 year ago
37 people think evolution is about theology :D
insanewarlock666 1 year ago
doesn't it say in the bible somewhere that one day with the lord is like a thousand years?
whatafart 1 year ago
@whatafart I can imagine lots of renaissance christian scientists interpreted Genesis as an allegory. Have you ever thought the 6 earthly days represent 6 million earthly years?
jshjamaar 1 year ago
@jshjamaar that does make sense.
whatafart 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I seem to be the only "voice in the middle". Goto "Neutral Evolution Forum" where the real facts on this are discussed.
GoodScienceForYou 1 year ago
I might be going out on a limb here but i think his ego is filtering out a raw intelligence about his mind's thoughts.
pedrogregorio 1 year ago
Of course it's about Theology. Christians don't make this big of a fuss about Physics and Chemistry and other branches of science even though those are even more theoretical. People for whatever reason think evolution is directly attacking Christianity.
ih8makinusernames 1 year ago
@ih8makinusernames
The foundation of our faith begins with Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning God...." We see that God created everything perfect, something terrible happened, and God reveals then His great plan to reconcile man back to Himself, and restore all of what sin had done. Evolution is simply used by some to explain everything away as being a natural inevitable process, which contradicts directly everything we read in Genesis, and greater plan of God.
DeaconCliff 1 year ago
@DeaconCliff yet you base your argument on the thesis that the bible's spiritual message is irrefutably true and has already been proven by it's mere existance. How can you argue with such a flawed thesis?
ih8makinusernames 1 year ago
@ih8makinusernames
I guess you could say I am not really arguing, my comment is in response to what you said earlier. We all need some foundation in which our beliefs need to begin from. I am definitely not the arguing type, but I think it is safe for us to agree to disagree that evolution and creation simply are not compatible. Either one is true and happened, or is simply not true.
DeaconCliff 1 year ago
@ih8makinusernames It's because of the Atheistic Worldview that is surrounded by Darwinism.
jshjamaar 1 year ago
@jshjamaar Darwinism is such a bad name, im a big fan of elvis, does that make me an follower of elvisism? or maybe im a follower of pancakeism.
Sweddude 1 year ago
@Sweddude You should be talking to the dude who partnered with Darwin, Alfred Wallace.
jshjamaar 1 year ago
@jshjamaar There is no such thing as an atheistic worldview. If you don't see why, there is no reason for you to be here.
theclinger 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Homochirality proves evolution can never happen..but this is now separate from there lies..evolutionists would rather believe in some chemistry unknown to science than intelligence..they want to explain all life and how it changed but not the first cell..there's some stubborn logic...they dont want in there theory because evolution falls apart.. evolutionists have way more blind faith.,thats why they dont want it part of evolution..evolution falls apart then
5tonyvvvv 1 year ago
"I can't speak for Richard Dawkins."LOL!
It's refreshing to hear an INTELLIGENT AND SOUND ATHEIST instead of these pseudo-atheist,Dawkins/Hitchens worshiping hacks on YT.
Reminds me of 30-35 years ago when the word "atheist" implied "an intelligent person who sees things differently."
Today,you atheists have allowed your good name to be hijacked by Dawkins and other illogical religiophobic hacks.They want your name,but are too intellectually lazy and unsophisticated to earn it.
EastofForever 1 year ago
@EastofForever Excuse me Mr. Ranter, I dare say that Dawkins/Hitchens aren't exaclty bad at their respective fields. There are some people who spout criticisms of Dawkins and Hitchens, and I for one finally want to learn why.
Why are Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and so on, bad examples of atheists? Where are their fallacies and signs of a lack of intelligence?
Solensherre 1 year ago
@Solensherre Excuse me . Lameass Responder, but get serious about respecting others and I will be glad to answer any question you have.
Thanks.
EastofForever 1 year ago
@Solensherre I don't think your ass is the only thing that's lame: are your arms broken too? It's all over YT and the internet why those two are certifiable hacks. You just don't want to look obviously, no doubt whatsoever.
Gee....I wonder if Mr. Lameass is baiting me for a little diatribe from him?...NOOO! Not him!!?? ....Not such a bastion of free thought??
Go away asshole--> and fix your lame ass a and broken arms.
EastofForever 1 year ago
@EastofForever My apologies, since you clearly inteded a serious factual criticism of those who enjoy what and how Dawkins and Hitchens do...
If you are serious in thinking the internet is full of factual criticisms of work which go beyond "I think they are too harsh, shouldn't people get to believe what they want?" then I believe you are mistaken, since all sources are similar to yours in merely stating that they don't like them in rather colourful terms. So please, prove me wrong...
Solensherre 1 year ago
@Solensherre run along little doggie.....that's not gonna work here.
oh...and here's your training wheels.
I wouldn't want to see you fall, you know....(wink)
EastofForever 1 year ago
@EastofForever I am at my wits end, how need I phrase my question for the suitable respect and consideration required to recieve a valid answer?
I dare say I have plenty of love and respect for atheists from David Hume to Bertrand Russell, but I don't think that the modern atheists are especially bad representatives...
If oyu disagree, I would like to know why, and perhaps prove me an idiot through sources on the internet and YT as you claim are full of criticisms...
Solensherre 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@Solensherre run along little doggie.....that's not gonna work here.
oh...and here's your training wheels.
I wouldn't want to see you fall, you know....(wink)
EastofForever 1 year ago
Comment removed
EastofForever 1 year ago
The real debate here is: if a man speaks his mind alone in a forest and no women hears him, is he still wrong?
kalimul 1 year ago
@kalimul I dare say the depths of considerations on absolute truth and whatnot is hard to discuss in the limited form of less than or equal to 500 characters...
Solensherre 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Mammalian evolution is entirely heterosexual.
Religious faggots will never admit it.
Who was not born of a woman?
SirWinstonChurchill 1 year ago
that is may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself. "
That perfectly describes my experience. There is a woman by the name of Jackie Pullinger who has been healing drug addicts in Hong Kong for over 30 years now. They come off of the drugs cold turkey without any withdrawal symptoms through people praying over them. I have links to a documentary made about her on my youtube account. It can be viewed there.
Happy Trails.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
Since then, I have had a few other experiences validating God's existence. In about 1995 I was doing Bible study and came across Ephesians 3:19 in the amplified Bible that describes the experience I had in 1972.
Ephesians 3:19 Amplified: "That you may really come to know--practically, through experience for yourselves--the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge (without experience); that you may be filled through all your being unto all the fullness of God---
dp19032k9 1 year ago
That was April. Summer past and it was time to sign in at the college dorm for a room for the fall semester. I walked into the dorm and began filling out info to get a room. Someone softly said my name and I turned around and it was Jim. He had been saved over the summer and wanted to get into Bible study with me. We became friends and met together several times a week. WE prayed, read the Bible, exercised together, etc. Last time I saw him was in 1980.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
I had tried to talk to a guy by the name of Jim a couple of weeks before this about Christ, but he wasn't open to it. So, I prayed for Jim that night. As I prayed for his salvation, God told me through the Holy Spirit in me that Jim was going to be redeemed. I had never had this experience either and didn't know what to think about it. After this I went back to the house. On the 3rd day sometime close to noon, God's Presence left me almost as suddenly as it had come.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
I didn't know things like this happened and didn't know how to put it into context of my life experience. But, I didn't need to pray anymore, my needs had been met. This strong sense of God's Presence lasted 3 days. I drove back to the house and went to bed. His Presence was with me for the exam, so I got through that. The next night I went back to this same park to pray again. I thought I was in a special state and wanted to make use of the power I sensed.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
After a short period of time I realized there was just too much material to cover, even if I stayed up all night. Distraught and in considerable emotional pain, thinking about what the next day would be like for me, I went out by myself to a roadside park to pray. I killed the engine of my car and as i started to audibly pray to God, He filled me with His Presence. It was intense, very strong feelings of love, security, and sense of well being coming from Him.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
I lived with 3 other Christian guys in a rented house while going to school. One was discipling me. Too much was demanded from me over a period of time, and I began spending more time with spiritual matters than my school work. One night in April, 1972, I needed to study for a cost accounting exam to be given the next day. But, I was pressured into going to a Christian fellowship instead. After getting back home at about 10:00pm, I started studying for the exam.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
I assume you did note the quote from Jeremiah, that God would make a new covenant, unlike the old one. That i isn't made up by a committee in the 3rd century A.D. There are other old testament scriptures which prophesy the coming Christ also, most notably in Isaiah.
Ok, here is how I know God exists, and I fully understand you are not going to buy this either. Doesn't matter. As a fairly new Christian, I became involved with a Christian organization in college between 1971 and 1973.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
I don't know the history of Islam, but I suspect they worship the same God, but not Jesus. Ishmael was Abraham's first child, born through a servant. He was Arab. God promised to bless him through many descendants as well, so I suspect that is where Islam came from, through the descendants of Ishmael. But that is a guess, I have not studied Islam.
I posted what I did to explain how the Old Testament and New Testament tie together in Christian belief.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
I am Iranian and I want to say that the Iranian people will overthrow the dictatorship of khomeini and khamenei
I just ask the world to take PMOI off the terrorist list and put more sanction on Iran
Down with ahmadinejad terrorist
NO WAR
NO TALK
SUPPORT PMOI AND IRANIAN PEOPLE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC REVOLUTION IN IRAN
hosseinthc 1 year ago
So, the Old Testament and New Testament are one testimony to the same God and the same Messiah. It all fits together cohesively.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 No, im afraid not, the council of nicaea did a miserable job of hamming the two books together, and ill add this was a dreadful mistake, you wold have been vetter off not shackleing yourselves to the old testement and moving away from the fuck up of a god the old testement god is.
You are an atheist too, your atheistic about Islam and Hinduism etc etc, i just go one religion more.
Scanini 1 year ago
Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. HE SACRIFICED FOR THEIR SINS ONCE FOR ALL WHEN HE OFFERED HIMSELF.
Scripture is clear that the sins from the Old Testament saints, including Moses, were left unpunished until Christ came. Those sins were paid for on Christ's cross, the same as New Testament saints. So, the way of salvation has been the same since the beginning, by Christ.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 More bible crap, not good enough evidence, and most certainly not a book on morality.
Scanini 1 year ago
Rom. 3:20-26 continued
There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because IN HIS FORBEARANCE HE HAD LEFT THE SINS COMMITTED BEFOREHAND UNPUNISHED.
This states God had left the Old Testament sins unpunished until Christ came.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Christ cannot take your responsibility away, you might be a peado and abuse children but this cannot be erased by the death of an innocent. You are a sick man if you abuse children and if caught in this world you will be punished.
No man can take this act away from you, vicarious redemption is a sick idea.
Scanini 1 year ago
Some believe this new covenant is only for those who believe in Jesus after his crucifixion around 33 A.D. But that's not what the Bible says.
Romans 3:20-26
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But, now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, "Know the Lord", because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
This new covenant is the one which comes through faith in Christ.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Again proof of Christs existence would be a good start here, but even if you could show that Jesus existed and he actually was the son fo god and not just deified at the council of Nicaea, it would not make vicarious redemption acceptable.
The sick and abhorrant religion that is christianity will pass away into the past, just like all other religions have done so, if we have to wait a few more generations for people like you to die then so be it..
Die in your delusion.
Scanini 1 year ago
Jeremiah 31:31-34
"The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, "declares the Lord.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Bible crap, i have said so many times you cant use the bible as evidence of anything until you show that the bible is not some made up story..
If this was the case then we would have to accept ALL religious texts as some sort of authority, i dont think so.
Scanini 1 year ago
But, it didn't permanently atone for those sins. A greater sacrifice was necessary to permanently atone for man's sins.
So, in time, Christ came, God in the flesh, to do for man what man could not do for himself. He lived a sinless life, in unbroken fellowship with God and fulfilled the "law" the Old Testament law.
Then on Passover, when the Jews were killing lambs and goats to remember their deliverance from the Angel of death in Egypt, God's sacrificial lamb, Jesus was slain for mans sin.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Vicarious redemption, the sickest of all cults i have looked at, how on earth you can even want to worship a fuckup like this is totally out of my field.
No being, no matter how good or perfect can take away ANY responsibility, if you wrong someone or do something wrong in life its YOUR responsibility, you can delude yourself that some willing patsy can take away your act but i and every other atheist the world over can see you are responsible.
Sick, is all i can say to this.
Scanini 1 year ago
5. God introduces His first dispensation of religion through Moses via the 10 Commandments and the Jewish laws. God introduces a second dispensation of religion through Christ to replace the first.
The purpose of the Old Testament laws, according to Christ and the Apostle Paul, was to be a tutor to teach us that we need a redeemer, and that the blood of animals could never take away man's sins. Ceremonially the animal blood God accepted for one year to "cover" a man's sin.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Again with a god accepting blood for evil acts?
Are you reading at all what you are writing, what a divine all powerful being would need with a payment in blood is just fucking mind boggling.
This is not in the resumé of a pure and good being, this is not what you would place on the desire list of a god. The strangest thing is, why would you ever worship a being that wants blood payments?
Sick, twisted and not worthy of worship by any stretch of the imagination.
Scanini 1 year ago
3. Moses became the mediator between God and the children of Israel [man]. Christ is the mediator between God and man.
4. Moses delivered Israel out of slavery and bondage to the Egyptians. He performed a number of miracles. Christ delivers man from slavery and bondage to sin, and performed a variety of miracles.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Lets chick mohammed int here as well shall we?
Islam has as much claim to being true as chrisitianity or any religion.
A miracle by definition is the suspension of the natural law. We do not see this at all in nature or have been able to prove miracles have ever taken place.
Scanini 1 year ago
All of this is a picture of what was to come. There are many parallels between Moses and Christ.
1. When Moses was born there was a decree by the king of Egypt that all male babies were to be killed. When Christ was born, King Herod had issued a decree that all male children up to the age of 2 should be killed.
2. Moses was in the wilderness for 40 years being tested and made ready for God’s purposes. Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days being tempted by Satan.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Ill give you another parallel, we have no good contempory historical or factual hard evidence for either person. All the evidence we do have is from books with a vested interest in the propagation of the religion.
Scanini 1 year ago
Leviticus 17:11 states, "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life."
So, this first dispensation of religion is a picture of what would come in the future, that is Christ. Animal blood had to be shed annually for the sins of the people. Moses was the mediator between God and man (the Jews), He was the deliverer from bondage for the Jews.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Again with blood.
This type of reasoning belongs in the geocentric bronze age it was made up in. The sooner we leave this tripe behind the better, its almost comical and hard to parody but a divine all powerful being asking for a goats sacrifice is just cringeworthy.
Its almost if you are not thinking about what you are writing.
Scanini 1 year ago
Abraham's descendants, the Jews, came under slavery and oppression in Egypt. Moses was born and eventually God called him to lead the Jews out of Egypt and save them from slavery. Once this was accomplished, God used Moses to institute His first dispensation of religion, the 10 commandments and other Jewish laws, including the sacrifice of blood of bulls, goats, lambs, etc.to make atonement for the sins of the Jews.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 All this blood sacrifice, what would a divine being need for a blood sacrifice?
This seems one petty minded capricious fucktard to me.
Scanini 1 year ago
In Genesis 15:5 God promises Abram (later Abraham) that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the heavens. Then it says that He believed God and this belief was credited to him as righteousness. This is the promise of spiritual descendants through Christ. This promise was given 430 years before the 10 Commandments and other Jewish laws were given by Moses.
Salvation is based on faith in the promise of God, not works of the law and it has always been this way.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Christianity is a basterdized form of Judaism. As is islam.
The bible plagurises the Torah.
Shame your 10 commandments didnt contain, thou shall not own another human being, or thou shall not abuse children, proof again any normal person is more morale than your dick of a god.
Scanini 1 year ago
The Old Testament and New Testament are Testaments to the same God. Salvation has always been the same, through faith in Christ, since the creation of the world. Old testament saints were saved through Christ, the same as New Testament saints. Yes, Moses was a Christian.
dp19032k9 1 year ago
@dp19032k9 Moses was reported to have been born in 1365BC How could moses be a christian before Christ?
He was a Jew and widely accpeted as the author of the Torah, the jewish holy book.
There is no historical evidence at all of moses either other than the holy books.
Scanini 1 year ago