Thanks for posting this. I sat through the first day of Landmark, I've been part of Christian groups and have friends in AA. The one thing these groups have in common is that, while they might help people, there is also a message of "It helped me and if you don't want the same help, you are unhealthy." I don't mind people joining anything they want to, but the red flag goes up when someone decides that they know what's best for me and that living my life the way I want to is somehow unhealthy.
If you are smart enough cults are fun if you are smart enough you can't be brainwashed only retards like this lady get sucked in for 30+ years same with those sucked into religion
Yes cult cult cult get a life lady some of these cults help people some of them hurt people. Self help personal development crap is good for people. You've purpose on this web page is to prevent people from doing things that you don't agree with.
A.A. is most diffinitely a 'stay with us or you'll die' cult. Bill Wilson didn't want any cult member of A.A. to pursue any 'abitions' because he just wanted them to attend AA cult meetings & have their whole life revolve around the cult of A.A. AA has a lot of stop-think slogans & empty platitudes, but no real principles other than 'the cult group knows all'.
She did something- doesn't tell us what- and lost people in her life, and it was horrible so she blamed groups. Landmark and its predecessor had nothing to do with Scientology. Landmark offers seminars and courses- there's nothing to join and nothing to believe. There are lots of invitations, but they easily accept "no". Yes, some people like it so much they can be persistent with the people they care about. Landmark is not a cult in any way. All sorts of doctors have taken it...
I took courses in Scvientology in 1975, 2010 and 2011. Landmark Education since 1991 to 2011 off and on. I took the Landmark Forum, Advance Course, Communication I & II. Neither Programs "Brain Wash" you. They are Not Cults. Cults are Words to scare off people. Actually I don't believe most people know what the word Cult means. As for AA, It is a good program. I just wonder what this speakers intention is.
@nosmokingpistol - That is total bollocks. AA is not a cult. It is a not for profit organisation as with NA and GA, you use it as you please and make contributions as you can afford it for very specific costs like literature and room hire. Where there's personal monetary gain, there's corruption, without corruption you can't have a cult, don't forget that.
What do you think of Abraham Hicks ? And Thank,s LandMark is iF E my doc whants me to go ,go figer someone i dont want a conflict of interest. My thoughts of jesus being god is great but Aberham makes sense.
@picassostrash ummm, ok? Its called having a personality, and a sense of humor. Do you know what those are? She is clearly happy and liberated to be out of Scientology, if you cant see that she is trying to exude that in her videos, then you must not know anything about cults or the actual subject matter of her videos, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO BE commenting on anway, the SUBJECT MATTER. Instead of making personal remarks aimed at putting her down. GET A LIFE.
@picassostrash ummm, ok? Its called having a personality, and a sense of humor. Do you know what those are? She is clearly happy and liberated to be out of Scientology, if you cant see that she is trying to exude that in her videos, then you must not know anything about cults or the actual subject matter of her videos, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO BE commenting on anway, the SUBJECT MATTER. Instead of making personal remarks aimed at putting her down. GET A LIFE.
Everyone was is different.... LRH might be full of shit. Scientology might be a scam.... (The lady above is correct, they are really nice at first but as the more you lose control of yourself the more controlling they become of you) But, Scientology did save my life from suicide and drug over dose attempts. So today, I am very thankful I am happy and I have to thank Scientology.... I'm not Scientologist but, I do sincerely thank them.
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THIS IS NOT TRUE ! I support SO MUCH of what Tory says. She has AWESOME information about the Co$. BECAUSE she has been thru it. Tory has never been through the Landmark Forum, I have. Landmark is NOT a Cult. It isn't easy, and it isn't always fun. And it is not the same as being in Scientology. There is not Cult bullshit, no danger of being trapped in. While it is VERY compatible with AA, it is not vital to be in AA & do Landmark's courses. I see why she is confused, but this is not so.
Ha, this is like arguing with a small child who repeats whatever is said against them. Sorry if your not ziggy but everything you say is the same as him. You are defending two cults, the world recognises these as cults and because of that they are on the decline. You are wasting your time, the cults will end. Landmark is banned in most of europe, scientology is dying. You need to wake up and smell the coffee. youve been brainwashed, now you need to work on deprogramming yourself.
@boominging If you are insulted because I say cult members have been brainwashed the intenet might not be the place for you. When you wrote your last two posts did you notice any hypocricy? Implying I am scitzophrenic and condeming me for personal insults? The cults are dying.... excellent, less people will have their lives damaged, families destroyed, lives and personalities taken away. You can keep attacking critics of cults but the cults will end!
@Mymunkyrules I am not "insulted" but you are making insults and personal attacks on posters. I never implied anything nor condemned you, i said very clearly what I meant.
@Mymunkyrules your conduct on the internet is far more offensive then any groups out there. If any entity spoke to or dealt with people they way you do on-line, said entity would be shut down the same day. For some reason you think it is ok to personally attack people on-line but the objects of your rants are suppose to conform to your whims and ideals about how the world should be, You ever look in the mirror Mymunkeyruler?
@boominging So me making anti cult comments is more offensive than cults brainwashing people for money, destroying lives, removing personalities, breaking up families/relationships and causing suicides? You have got to be a troll. They are not personal attacks, I am criticising pro-cult comments. Only if you are deep in a cult could you see my comments as "personal attacks".
@Mymunkyrules,there are many excellent critics who do not use insults nor emotional personal attacks on stangers on line . Mymunkeyruler, you embody thing you say that others are, it is in all your posts.
Labelling dessenting view as "trolls" is an attempt at mind and thought control.
@boominging As I first stated cult members will attack a critic instead of the criticism. ie you claim when I say critical things against cults is worse than what the cults do, I argue against this, you then claim I embody everthing I am against but do not address the points I made, youre just trying to discredit me. Thought control needs to be carried out in a controlled environment like landmark or scientology,it cant be done in an internet conversation.Google liftons thought reform.
@Mymunkyrules you are glossing over your name calling, personal attacks and insults towards people on line. Those are not "criticism". You are trying to shut people down and discredit others with your ad hominems. You are trying to influence others by shaming and nasty comments. You do embody many of the characteristics you are accusing others of.
@boominging What have I said that is SO offensive?! Calling cult members brainwashed and deluded is hardly a heinous attack! If it hurts so much you shouldnt have joined or defend a cult. You however are glossing over the crimes of cults. Brainwashing, destroying peoples personalities, breaking up families, causing suicides and you claim I am being offensive? Your hypocricy is an excellent example why people shouldnt pay to be reprogrammed by cults like landmark and scientology.
@Mymunkyrules you keep accusing others of making claims about you that they never made. Nobody called you a "Nazi",Nobody called you "evil" , Nobody said you were being "offensive", nobody "condemned" you nobody called you "scitzophrenic" , nobody said any of the things you are saying.
You are insulting people, posting personal attacks, making ad hominems on others, using tactics to silence others and being the very thing you accuse others of.
@boominging Thankyou for the perfect example of what Im talking about, attack the critic not the criticism. I'll ask again, what personal attacks have I made that are so offensive for you to go after me and ignore the terrible things these cults are doing? You implied or likened me to all you just listed, then made out Im wrong for calling you on them, typical landmark/scientology manipulation of language, sorry doesnt work on me.
If any group or large entity did what ToryMagoo44 was doing, a relentless campaign of harassment to malign others, people would cry foul. But because it is a much older lady who smiles plays music and dangles stuffed toys it is suppose to be somehow benign and on the side of "good". We have to all be subject to the same laws of devency we espouse about others. Other "groups" perceive they are "educating" others just as sincerely as ToryMagoo44 might fancy herself doing.
@boominging I only criticise the cult supportes who peddle crap like landmark and scientology and point out the manipulitive techniques and attitudes those cults and its members use. You keep implying that I am some kind of high school bully but Im only doing this because of the deep damage I have seen landmark do to families and peoples personalities.
@Mymunkyrules, self-justified & explaining yourself as being above your own stardards or not, you still appear to be doing the very thing you are accusing other of. But I don't need to imply or point that out, it is obvious in your posts. Just because you are enthusiastic about attackng a certain demographic that has caught your ire, you are one of those people who personally attack other people. Nazis explained themselves & thought they were entirely justified in their attacks on humans.
@boominging So Im a NAZI !! lol you gotta be a troll, either that or I feel very sorry for you. If anyone is intersted in landmark and scientology have a read through the "chat" me and this guy are having. It will give you a good insight into how someone who has been through "thought reform" (google it) thinks.
@Mymunkyrules, trying to muster up a little cyber mob now? I am not calling you a "Nazi" , I am saying that you are self justifying your behavior and conduct as many people have in the past. you are accusing others of behavior that you are actually perpetrating yourself but somehow exempting yourself from your own rules of conduct. Personal attacks and name calling are your MO Mymunkruler.
@boominging sorry the twisted logic you have been programmed with to keep you under the spell is just too confusing to keep up with. try reading liftons thought reform and key cult features, if you read it with an open mind and allow come critical judgement in your programming(even though youve been programmed not to) it might help you break out of the mind set you have been put in by recognising the manipulation you have been through. good luck.
@Mymunkyrules, and yet more condescending ad homonyms. Have you anything to say to people other than high and mighty personal attacks against others Mymunkyruler?
@Mymunkyrules, it is your own behavior that seems to go unadressed on You Tube Mymunkruler . You seem ok with silencing other's free speech and attacking and labeling others and trying to control what others think by using constant personal insults to enforce your own point of view. Perhaps it is you who needs to read "Liftons thought reform and key cult features".
@boominging I recognise this whole arument as I have had it before. I believe you are a landmark staff member who has appeared under numerous account names starting as "zigzagidiot" am I right? If so you will remember when you made fun of lars(another landmark critic on yt) friends suicide. This will put the hypocricy of your current arument against me into perspective. Your current line is the standard distraction "oooh look how evil this guy is so ignore the nasty things he says about cults"
@Mymunkyrules I never said you were "evil" just as I never said you were a "nazi". What I said, if you are interested in what other people say, I suspect you have no interest in what others say, was that, on YT, YOU Mymunkruler are doing the exact very things that YOU are accusing others of. It is not complicated.
You appear to be a very sweet and lovely person.Yes, i got through the first day and a half, saw it was bs, and left during a break on the second afternoon.I'm very glad you got throught this ordeal with your sense of humor intact.I wish the best for you in your evolution.
Landmark and Scientology may be "cults" but only as much as much as our families are and our for profit colleges are , for universities and the medical associations the military and sports teams are. Anywhere people gather in groups with a purpose and use language. Our country is a kind of cult that tries to indoctrinate other countries using advertising movies and other "techniques".
Landmark is a cult thats uses manipulitive techniques taken from scientology. You can always spot a cult member by the way they attack critics personally...see booinging and pauljames deluded comments below. Landmark is now banned or left most countries in Europe.
Thanks to our Constitutional right of Freedom of Speech, misinformed people like you are able to say whatever they like, and operate as if the fact that they believe something makes it true. There is NO connection whatsoever between Scientology and Landmark Education. In FACT, it was Scientology that went to great lengths to character assassinate Werner Erhard and everything he did and stood for. For more info, get the book "The Three Laws of Performance."
Of course Landmark has nothing to do with Scientology (not that there is anything wrong with Scientology). The internet has made an opportunity for every single person to say anything accurate or not, no matter how much it may harm others, without consequences. to themselves. You Tube, in part, has become an opportunity to gossip and slander others.
@boominging There is something wrong with scientology. It is a religion of secrecy that shows no trust in individuals before they prove themselves loyal to the organization when it, scientology, does not show the same trust in others by retaining a structure of secrecy.
what group in thai world does not have some culture or religion of secrecy? Can you name one? What you are saying is not unique to them IMO. As we approach a 10 billion person planet, it seems that people need to do certain things to survive and that includes you and me as well. Saying it is just one group is a distortion of reality and dishonest.
Is the US governement not a religion and culture of secrecy?
@boominging There is a problem with your logic. A government is not a religion but it is a culture of secrecy even though a genuine democracy should contain no such culture.
However, there are many religions without such secrecy in its culture, Buddhism and Sunni Islam to name a few. By the way, I am an atheist, so I don't need to go further in describing my lack of trust in religion in general, but scientology stands out as a heirarchical system of extreme secrecy just as the free masons.
@boominging It nears to impossible to prove to what extent of damage can be done on individuals as individuals who CAN speak out about what they know are bound by legal agreements they've signed with the body of scientology to that secrecy. So, in essence, we're looking at a philosophy that guards itself from criticism by hiding its real code of ethics.
the distinction of an "asshole" is someone who knows what works, but still chooses to do what doesnt work. For example being a point of view about something ie "being on it" and choosing not to get off it. Or running your racket and knowing that you are running a racket, and not choosing to get off it. Or being out of integrity and choosing not to be responsible and clean up the mess youve caused. There is nothing right ot wrong - just being and asshole (or jerk)
The worst thing about landmark is what it does to peoples personalities. Part of the programming (like all cults) is to convince you all non landmarkers are "assholes" (in werners words). After the forum participents become aloof, superior people who can dismiss everone else's thoughts and emotions..... only they know the truth. everyone else is deluding themselves.
I went to the forum years ago and did get something out it and that was the end of that.
Having said that, I did see a lot of "smiley, happy-happy, joy-joy" people and have also wondered the level of fanaticism in there.
I guess no different than when I went to a Brian Tracy seminar and you see a swarm of people chasing the dude as if he was our next messiah! Tony Robbins, same thing.. a lot of fanatics there too! Just do whatever u think will help and don't be a groupie!
The Landmark organisation is pushy, I agree, in terms of wanting you to do more and more. But, the education itself is great. I have a degree in psych and I can tell you this isn't brainwashing, mind control or a cult. It is a self development education. The problem is when you finish you are encouraged to enroll friends and family and to do more courses yourself.. 'that' is the negative.
@occamsrazor001 - I agree. The pressure to enroll in more classes and others is obnoxious. But, no one in my Forum seemed traumatized. Glad I experienced the Forum and assisted in another, and I review the material often to keep it fresh.
@occamsrazor001 they use their own distinctions in their own orgnaisation and teach other the same way ie to go beyond what sotops you, being unreasonable, being a stand etc
@hawasawayahawa True, it not proof. I have no proof of anything in life. I consider christianity to be a cult. "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers" would be an example and is not unlike scientologies practice of shunning those who dont accept their beliefs, amongst many weird beliefs. The virgin birth is no more weird than thetans in volcanoes.
Just as one can be a junkie FOR something, one can be a junkie AGAINSTsomething.
It's to be expected that given Tory's extreme experience FOR Co$ that she now gives equal energy AGAINST Co$. It's the nature of the convert personality; the pendulum swings from one end to the other with equal force and energy.
Real freedom for her - and others who had this awful experience in Co$ - will come when she detaches altogether and she is then free to create some thing new.
When landmark was called est its followers were refered to as "estholes" due to their superior attitude, now they are "landroids" cus they are brainwashed robots who have lost there own personality.
I did the Landmark Forum about 5 years ago. Negatives: Pressure to recruit friends/family and to keep going with next courses. I chose not to continue with the programs.
However, it helps me deal with a number of issues in a very positive and productive way. Their concepts can be found at their website under course syllabus.
Anything in excess is a cult. Enjoy in moderation. Too much of anything is bad. Booze, sex (see Tiger), potato chips, and Landmark.
est bears little resemblance to Dianetics or Scientology, however. est is a hodgepodge of philosophical bits and pieces culled from the carcasses of existential philosophy, motivational psychology, Maxwell Maltz's Psycho-cybernetics, Zen Buddhism, Alan Watts, Freud, Abraham Maslow, L. Ron Hubbard, Hinduism, Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale, P.T. Barnum, and anything else that Erhard's intuition told him would work in the burgeoning Human Potential market.
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Landmark is as much a cult as community theatre, organized religion or politics; i.e. anywhere that accepts the socially awkward as real people. It does have an aggressive marketing campaign which is (arguably) altruistic. I browbeat anyone who was involved for 13 years until I finally decided that if I was going to criticize something that I should see what it was really about. And btw, its not an offshoot of scientology, in fact Hubbard was out to get Erhard, you should do your research.
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Landmark Education is NOT cult. I can easely prove it. I have the evidence in my hand right now. It's a list of persons proving that L E is not a cult nor cult-like. It's really an impressive list. The organisation that have studied L E and is presenting this list of experts is...Harvard Business School!!! I can give you the names, as I can give you the name of the report and order nr. of the material. It's under copyright. The proof! If you really want to know...
Hans, The veracity of evidence is not status based. To suggest that the opinions held by members or alumni of prestigious institutions is of greater merit than that held by alumni of B or C schools is just plain nonsense, anti-science, and preposterous. But, you go ahead and present your argument. I doubt is is elegant or anything but anecdotal.
Electric99, Robert Sapolsky has some interesting things to say on the idea of 12 step programs being a substitute addiction for alcoholism, narcotics, sex, or whatever. He argues that all speak to particular compulsive personality disorders.
Well, at least AA won't rot your liver and pickle your brain. Maybe it is more akin to methadone than a cult.
navygolf98, I do not impute a singularity to John 4:16. Yes, there are many gospels; some in the Bible, and some excluded. Regardless, this passage clearly indicates that the God of the old testament is mediated through Jesus. All of the gospels are about Jesus. That is what the "good news" is supposed to be...
You seem to have a problem with the fact that most people feel much better about themselves after doing the Landmark Forum, and criticise Landmark for "deifying the ego." But my reading Matthew 5 suggests that God seems to be ok with people realizing their potential and having a healthy self-esteem: "Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.... Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
Hmmm. I can't recommend Landmark even though the Forum itself was a great experience for me. Their perversion of the distinction "enrollment" destroys their credibility with me. They take a great, socratic self-examination and try to turn you into a selling machine for them. It was my experience at the Forum that started my career as a Scientology critic and, ironically, a Landmark critic. "Empty and meaningless" changed my life in a big way, and for that, I'm grateful.
How would Hubbard have felt about $cientology having front groups? I mean... shouldn't a Ronbot be PROUD to be a Ronbot? If you have to CONCEAL $cientology from the people you're trying to recruit, you're way down the Tone Scale, aren't you?
"Has anyone ever had dealings with this lovely cult? I'm watching my sister and her husband sink into an emotional and financial pit because of Landmark Education. All of their free time is devoted to working (for FREE) for this cult."
FACTnet (dot) org---search Landmark. Read, LOOK, listen: Make up your *own* minds :)
This video covers; the man machine, bowel and bladder control, rackets, strong suits, the power exercise, fear, the meaningless and emptiness of life, creating your own reality, the come on for the next seminar.
"Reebok contracted with Landmark for a two year initiative in generating significant increases in performance & productivity. This is a new environment that elicits peoples committed action and in which they generate new approaches and activities that lead to a breakthrough in our results. Our experience has been that Landmark operates with the highest standards of professional conduct and integrity."
Paul Fireman, Chairman & CEO, Reebok International Ltd - From a letter dated March 7, 1996
So, 13 years later... what was the impact of this initiative? You know that the track record of such mass training/mind manipulation boot camps is abysmal.
Note that Paul Fireman claimed in January of this year that his family and his foundation were robbed of $25 million by a trusted friend and advisor of 25 years.
So, how good a judge of character can Paul Fireman be?
As I indicated, my experience of EST is through EST graduates I have known (ESTholes if you can take a joke), and indirectly through a student of Stewart Emery. Stewart was the first CEO of EST. He parted ways with Erhard over ethical considerations.
This kind of work can be very dangerous and if not tempered with wisdom and compassion can be very destructive. Watts knew this. Emery discovered this. Erhard never figured out the psychic damage he was doing.
BS, Don't get me wrong, I don't think that such work is entirely without merit. What I learned does permit me to achieve ruthlessly effective results where I choose to apply the tools; but the context is very dangerous. The sense of bottomless obligation to the organization is insidious.
There is a time for moving on from the organization. To the degree that the work is legitimate, one can apply it as an individual while still being authentically oneself. Sadly that is rare...
BS, I believe it is rare because the work is focused on imitation of Erhard; and imitation of another can never be authentic.
To be oneself, one must contextualize the process of discovery. That cannot happen in a short period of time. My experience is that it takes years of practice with a legitimate teacher in an authentic lineage before the fruits of refuge are born as deep gratitude. Refuge is the key, and only a realized being can grant this. EST didn't produce any realized beings.
BS, there are no shortcuts. Each one's path is unique in details and in duration. For me guru yoga works. It works because it takes up residence in the heart. Rimpoche gave me the gift of refuge, the gift of a lineage and practice unbroken for nearly 2500 years.
EST and it's descendents essentially deify the ego. Authentic spiritual work puts the ego in it's place. Ego is not to be confused with personality. It is just one part of what we are. Watts knew this. Erhard still does not "get it".
BS, In a sense the difference between the fantasy of instant enlightenment and the opportunity of a lifetime of diligent practice is the difference between obligation and gratitude.
Rimpoche will always have my gratitude. This is a pure thing. By contrast, my appreciation of my EST descended experience will always be tempered by the reaction that my rejection of this bottomless obligation (the real trap) provoked.
I can watch my mind, it's habits, obsessions, and tricks. This is liberation.
I didn't participate in the EST training, but my experience of the Landmark Forum was quite different from how you have described EST. Rather than "deifying the ego," LM's programs have helped me catch myself when my ego is running the show and be more true to principles of love and compassion. I see no relationship between LM and characteristics of "cults." Cults separate people from those who don't join. Landmark brings people together, irrespective of who does the Forum and who does not.
The fruit does not fall far from the tree. such folk sayings may be hackneyed, but the truth in them is undenyable.
If you think that Landmark Forum is of a different kind than EST, then look again. My experience of graduates is that they have a great deal in common. The differences are about style and inflection, or branding/marketing. But, the self absorbed, self righteous, and self justifying core is unchanged. This is the celebration of ego to which I refer...
... the fantasy that morality is purely subjective is a dangerous one. This fantasy is at the core of scientology, occultism, EST, and Landmark Forum.
Imagine what a cruel and mean spirited world we would live in if everyone subscribed to this delusion, and regarded social norms of behavior as optional, or even detrimental... A world in which everyone is out for their own animalistic objectives.
That is the goal of these organizations. Not coincidentally, it is also the end of civilization
... This is why the circumstances of L. Ron Hubbard's death by drug overdose is a cautionary tale. This is also why the downfall of Werner Erhard after an incestuous lust festival on the floor of a hotel room with his daughter is also a cautionary tale.
Why would anyone want to model themselves after such persons? What makes these models of humanity even momentarily believable?
Just because one has human form, does not necessarily mean that one is living the life of a human being...
The hallmarks of a human being are clarity, compassion, patience, common sense, intelligence, emotional availability, and engagement in the world around them.
Certain key qualities of the human experience are disparaged and denigrated by scientology, EST, occultism, and Landmark Forum. These qualities are universal prerequisites to any form of enlightenment, and to all spiritual traditions. Without them, all that remains is the ego delusion. This is a very dangerous thing.
... The christian metaphor for this kind of idol worship is that of Satan. Yes, one can sell their soul to the archangel in exchange for some worldly wealth or success or power; but there is a price to be paid. Such deals should never be mistaken for "enlightenment".
Yes, I do mean to suggest that Werner Erhard and L. Ron Hubbard are/were Pied Piper's for the devil. As such, none of their teachings support the development of the full human being; rather crippled souls in human form.
Anon, spirituality, morality, and ethics are important to me too. Doing the Landmark Forum has brought me back to my church, which I had been away from, brought me much closer to my parents, and gave me the courage to go after things that were truly important to me instead of what I thought would make me look good in front of other people or live up to others' expectations. I believe that God wants us to be happy, thus I have to believe God wants us to engage in type of inquiry Landmark offers.
I am pleased to hear that you are engaged in family and community; but am baffled by your denial of the irreconcilability of two disparate value systems. Assuming your church is one of the big three monotheistic religions... how can you reconcile scripture and doctrine with the fundmental new age precept that, "what is true for you is true".
This precept is at odds with and in fundamental contradiction to the core concept of a one true god. These value systems cannot be reconciled.
"I believe that God wants us to be happy, thus I have to believe God wants us to engage in type of inquiry Landmark offers."
There is no clear scriptural support for the notion that god wants us to be either happy or unhappy. Life has many aspects which are pleasant, and many which are painful. I believe we are admonished to live our lives well regardless of whether our name might be Jove or Job.
Not all inquiry is good. This is a recurring object lesson in mythology and religion.
Again, I get that you have opinions about whether "all inquiry is good," whether what Landmark offers is "good," and whether God wants us to be happy or unhappy. And I respect those opinions. I also think that people who are truly "Christian" and living out the philosophy of "love thine enemy" have to be willing to do exactly what Landmark is teaching people to do: to stop relating to their opinions as the truth and have compassion and understanding for their fellow man.
Anon--you are confusing philosophical and religious concepts with your comment here. Landmark's inquiry is primarily a remake of the dialogue between Socrates and Glaucon in Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." In that dialogue, you will recall, Socrates illustrates that most human beings believe that their interpretations about reality are "the truth," when in reality they are only shadows on the wall. This notion is embedded within the great spiritual texts of every major religion.
In other words, embedded in the assertion that LM and, say, Christianity juxtapose two "irreconcilable value systems" is the assumption that what LM is presenting is, in fact, a value system. Landmark is doing no such thing--LM does not present, analyze, or consider any value system. The closest LM comes to doing that is LM's assertion that integrity, morality, and ethics are distinct from one another, which strikes me (and Webster's dictionary) as a pretty obvious (and innocuous) concept.
Anon- You wrote that LM is "irreconcilable" with the Abrahamic religions because they teach a doctrine that you summarized as "what is true for you is true." But Landmark doesn't actually say that. All Landmark says is "what occurs as true for you occurs as true for you." This is a subtle but critical distinction. Truth, of course, always exists, but our perception of truth will always be colored by our interpretations. There's nothing sacreligious about acknowledging the human condition.
navygolf98, OK. Landmark teaches; "what occurs as true for you occurs as true for you". Occur, according to Merriam Webster is 1) to appear, 2) to happen, 3) to come to mind. Thus the subtle semantic massaging (rebranding) that has been applied to LRH's core belief is fundamentally unaltered, and transparently squirreled tech. The meaning is unaltered from the original, "what is true for you is true". This is not reconcilable with John 14:6; I am the way, the truth, and the light...
... No one comes to the father except through me.
Neither can this subjective view of the universe be reconciled with core Islamic doctrine, "There is no god but god".
All three faiths acknowledge the fundmental danger in false inquiry, false doctrine, and false gods. That is what scientology is; the deification of the ego. This is the manufacture of a golden idol.
I know Plato's Republic well. The ego is a shadow on the wall of the cave, not to be mistaken for something of substance...
... If you are not shackled in this cave (if your free will has not been enslaved by some shiny fashionable and convenient dogma such as scientology or it's children); then you are free to turn your head and look out into the light of day; to look upon things themselves.
The entire cave metaphor depends upon the idea that there is such a thing as truth, and there are such things as shadows. There are things themselves, and there are seemings (things as they seem to be). Scientology denies this.
... so do the children of scientology deny the very possibility of an objective truth. They do not claim that discernment of truth is arduous. They deny that there is such a thing as truth.
The lie that, "what is true for you is true" is both seductive and instrumental. At core it is the seed of heresy from either a Scientific perspective, or an Abrahamic one. It is the death of culture, the end of civilization, and the denial of the very notion of progress. It is the end of the modern world...
... It is the core concept which invokes and reinforces the intellectual dissonance (confusion) necessary as a pre-condition for mind reform.
It is facile, irresponsible, and intellectually sloppy to regurgitate this core tenet, "what is true for you is true". The subject-object relationship is much more complicated and nuanced than such a platitude can convey. Yet this core tenet is present in all of the squirrel tech, as in Scientology itself, albeit subtly rephrased and reframed.
While LM may motivate one to engage in social institutions out of unvarnished self interest; it is still at core a denial of all values other than those that seem right to the adherent at the moment. Primacy is granted to the thoughts, feelings, fantasies, and desires of the adherent; to the exclusion of the contents of any one else's body or mind. And, the notion of truth or a social contract is deemed ludicrous.
This is a deviant's wet dream; a child molester's dream come true; LRH paradise.
Anon, I cannot comment on LRH or Scientology, as my knowledge of that subject is limited to a single book I have read by Hubbard ("Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought") that I found to be rather poorly written and uninspired. The topic I feel I can speak to with a bit more authority is Landmark Education as it relates to the major teachings of the Abrahamic religions. I don't know how much exposure you have had to Landmark, but from your comments LM seems quite different from Scientology.
The entire basis for your objection to Landmark seems to be based on a false premise: that Landmark teaches "what is true for you is true." This is simply factually incorrect; Landmark teaches no such thing. What Landmark does say is that, while most people think of themselves as open-minded and objective, in fact our approach to ourselves, our circumstances, and to others is often filtered or even obscured by pre-existing notions and ideas. Do you dispute the validity of this concept?
"Landmark teaches no such thing." If so, then please explain the difference between the LRH line on truth and the LM one that you quoted. The rebranding is too subtle for me to distinguish between them. It looks to me like a paraphrasing in order to avoid a copyright infringement lawsuit.
I contend that this conception of the ultimate subjectivity of truth is a core concept in satanism, scientology, LM, The Forum, EST, and several other organizations; and that it is fundamentally at odds with..
... at odds with the scientific method, the western cannon, and Abrahamic faith.
Yes, I dispute the validity and the usefulness of the application of quantum theory to the consciousness of the individual. This is simply a slick way of applying the "confusion technique", a pre-condition to mind reform. At best it is pretend Buddhism.
I do acknowledge the usefulness of psychology, and the power of the unconscious mind; but scientology and it's children deny this out of hand. It threatens them.
...and your contention is based on a false premise that I believe in "ultimate subjectivity." I do not believe in any such thing. I believe that my perception of the truth is subjective, but the truth is ultimately objective. This is a very, very basic concept of both eastern and western philosophy and all major world religions...do you really think that this proposition is debateable?
navygolf98, I contend that the confusion technique applied around this core issue is what permits adherents to hold utterly contradictory belief systems without feeling the need to try and reconcile them. This is the secret ingredient that mind reform organizations have in common. It opens the door to all manner of aberrations, delusions, and self absorbed behavior.
It is not possible to believe that there is Truth, and that there is no Truth simultaneously. The conscious mind prohibits this.
Again, I am not familiar enough with LRH or Scientology to feel comfortable offering an opinion as to how Scientology compares with Christianity, Hinduism, baseball, rock climbing, Landmark, or anything else. What I do know is that I have never heard anyone at Landmark assert or even imply that "the truth does not exist." The truth does exist. If the truth did not exist we wouldn't be able to fly airplanes, build computers and the like. It is just that we perceive "the truth" through a filter
navygolf98, "It is just that we perceive "the truth" through a filter"
Where is this filter? Can I touch, taste, smell, measure, quantify, or document it? No. Because it does not exist. This is the sine qua non of EST... Follow me now. The pitch goes like this... You are not living up to your full potential because you are distracted and confused by mysterious filters which have accreted on your mind/body as a result of living in a decadent and chaotic reality. You need to be "cleared" Get it?
navygolf98, You are more familiar with LRH than you realize. LM is rebranded Scientology. That is what the term "squirreled tech" indicates.
There is really no fundamental reason that a universe devoid of Truth would necessarily preclude any of the marvels of technology. The problem is that it could just as easily hold magic above science. In such a universe I could transform myself into an Icharus like being or a flying monkey for less than the cost of an airline ticket...
... In such a universe I could remake myself into all manner of fantastic things, an explorer, a nuclear physicist, a student of eastern mysticism, a ship's captain, a war hero, the youngest eagle scout ever. I could make up all sorts of things and like Peter Pan if I wished hard enough I could make others buy into these fantasies too. I could do all of this without unequivocally denying the existence of Truth. All I would need is that opening, that intellectual dissonance...
... the distance between these two frames is a short one:
What is true for you is true.
What is true for me is true for you.
This is where the children of LRH end up. This is totalitarianism embedded in illogic and intellectual dissonance.
Like the frog placed in a pot of tepid water, the heat being gradually and incrementally applied, the frog's natural defense mechanisms are foiled. Result: frog soup. This is how mind reform works... One kumbaya, one group hug, one aha at a time. Get it?
I see absolutely no contradiction between LM's premise that human beings' perception of the world is colored by their past experiences and the passage of the Bible you quoted. Assume for a moment that the passage means "Jesus's teachings are 'the truth." Landmark leaves its customers absolutely free to go on believing that. For instance, I believed John 14:6 before the LMF and I continue to believe that after the LMF. And I acknowledge that others might have a different point of view.
Now, as a Christian, I personally believe that the better interpretation of John 14:6 is that Jesus was claiming to be "THE Truth," which is why I do my best, however imperfectly, to follow Him every day. But someone else might interpret John 14:6 differently: that Jesus wasn't claiming to be the ONLY way to God. LM doesn't offer any opinion one way or the other. LM only says that which point of view you choose is likely to be colored by your past experiences. How can anyone argue with that?
navygolf98. "... which point of view you choose is likely to be colored by your past experiences. How can anyone argue with that?"
I know that this sounds reasonable on the face of it, but lift the lid on this dumpster and take a hard look at the fetid reality contained within.
LM doesn't offer an opinion one way or the other because LM has absolutely nothing to do with living a good life. LM does not speak to what a life well lived might be like...
... The sole focus of LM is on being effective (read powerful) in this life. This has nothing to do with being kind, wise, compassionate, or godly. Those words are frankly regarded as distractions and delusions for small people, ineffective people, weak people.
Yet, these are the same people that according to the Bible are to inherit the earth... the meek. This is yet another contradiction to be explained away with vague allusions to quantum mechanics...
The other magic wand used to make these words disappear is the "wisdom tradition/eastern mysticism" wand. This is bunkum. There is no eastern mysticism without mantra and/or meditation in the context of a generational lineage...
The children of LRH do not have a lineage, a mantra, and do not practice meditation. The whole twisted family tree is less than 60 years old. The references to eastern mysticism are pure unadulterated malapropism and outright sleight of hand...
But if you really do want to discuss Landmark as it relates to Christianity or other religions, I want to make sure I am not wasting my time trying to talk to someone who is not informed as to what they are talking about. Anon, have you actually done the Landmark Forum, or are you just going off of what you have read on the internet and assuming that it is "just like Scientology?"
navygolf, You seem to be implying that one must experience a thing itself as a pre-condition to knowing what that thing is about. This is not surprisingly a refrain that Scientologists engage in routinely... Read the book and decide for yourself. This is really just another way of saying, "What is true for you is true". If 3% of readers end up giving money to the organization, then this is a winning come on, but it is still a come on.
navygolf, The burden of proof is not on me to define the ways in which Werner Erhard's squirreled tech as currently practiced in LandMark/Forum differs from the source (L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology). Rather, the burden of proof is on LandMark to distinguish itself and it's offering as distinct from the source (L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology).
But, you can't do that because you refuse to inform yourself about the origins of LM; it's ideological lineage; it's history. This rings hollow.
navygolf98, I have shared before that my experience of EST is through a student of Stewart Emory. I am not sure that this would mean anything to you because you appear believe that LM sprung up spontaneously and whole in some moment of brilliant divinity.
I contend that all ideology is embedded in it's historical context. Stripped of this context, it is nothing but superstition and magical thinking. Avert your eyes to history and you embrace darkness...
... to put this another way, the Bible speaks to false prophets, bad fruit, and the lineage of bad ideology quite unequivocally beginning in Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
This is the proper view of LRH, Dianetics, Scientology, EST, LandMark, The Forum, and all other descendents of the fruits of the mind of L. Ron Hubbard. This lineage extends back to Alistaire Crowley (the beast).
Anon, if you want to have a reasoned, rational discussion about LM, I am open to that. I think I asked you a very legitimate, straightforward question as to whether you agree with this central component of philosophy: ultimate truth exists and is "objective," however human beings have only subjective means for discerning objective truth. LM didn't come up with this idea...it was first and most famously articulated by Plato. But it is an important LM idea, too. Do you challenge it? If so, why?
navygolf98, I do not see an identity relationship between your personal view of truth and that of the children of LRH. You appear to buy the central Platonic concept of the eidos. So do I.
But, neither Scientology nor any of the squirrel tech descendants of this mother-ship accept this concept. They reject it as quaint and delusional. The eidos does not accord with a post-modern world view. It does not accord with the tech. It therefore cannot be an LM idea.
navygolf98, Even angels are vulnerable to confusion, vulnerable to the will to power, and capable of seeking balm for a damaged ego. There are critical differences between Lucifer and Gabriel. Both are powerful, skilled, and purposeful...
It is not enough to grant temporal power to beings without discernment and character. That is the danger of the children of LRH. The "tech" or the "tools" are powerful, but they are given without proper; context, training, motivation and constraint... Truth.
Anon, you claim that mankind accepting that he has only a subjective perception of ultimate truth will lead to the "end of civilization." So please explain to me why it is that civilization has not yet ended over 2500 years after Socrates and Plato first articulated and spread these ideas?
navygolf98, Civilization did end for several hundred years between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Enlightenment. This was called the Dark Ages. This is a history thing which is not very convenient for the children of LRH.
... The inconvenience of history is that it prohibits one from attempting to mash-up ideas from different systems of thought as if they were of a kind... Socratic thought does not easily mesh with Aristotelian thought. These thoughts do not easily mesh with modern scientific thought, especially quantum physics; and eastern mysticism is not some kind of magic glue for making these disparate and incompatible ideas stick together. It fails on so many levels that it is hard to know where to begin.
navygolf98, Correction... This should read... between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance (rather than the Enlightenment which came later). The point of course is that Western civilization has not been contiguous, and there is no guarantee that it will continue in perpetuity.
Ancient thinking, Renaissance thinking, Enlightenment thinking, modern Scientific thinking, post-modern thinking, and Eastern Mysticism cannot be mixed up indiscriminately with useful or meaningful results.
Thanks to each of you for posting more and more of the facts re all of this. I had no idea.....
One more person, by the way, just got free from the Cult of Scientology W.I.S.E. Group (Another front group of theirs---under the umbrella of C of $ if you're reading this and thinking of using their "management tech").
Scientology breaks up families, stops free speech and practices "Fair Game"---all while SELLING "Freedom".
hi tory...i asked a friend in a.a. about help for a friend who was on heroin.they suggested narcanon...when i checked it out i found that narcanon is run by scientology.... and so of course i researched it more and found out a lot of scary things about the narcanon program........point is that they are all sorts of things that scientology has as fronts basically....n.a. or narcotics anonymous is the same as a.a. alcoholics anonymous, the twelve steps and traditions..narcanon is a trick.
Thanks for the Video. My Boss's Mentor insisted that he go and do Landmark because it will help his business. So he did. He came back to work the next week and was trying to force us all to go too.
It was a pretty bad situation, we all went and it was a very wierd experience. The room was freezing! I wanted out so I went to go to the bathroom and they stopped the seminar when I stood to ask me where i was going. i was escorted to the bathroom then jumped out the window.
As I've said, for any group, read *both* sides, and then make up your own mind. This includes those lurking who are "in" Scientology. Cults are manipulative, promise you need them, keep you for hours, have one leader, have loaded language, etc. So far, to me Landmark fills that bill. However, this video is to tell those who are being told they need Landmark, to LOOK at both sides, before you hop on that train.
It didn't take very long for the ad hominem attacks to start.
Q: What's different about doing that here and the stuff the Co$ say about Tory's character?
Just for the record: All allegations that came to a head around the point Erhard split were never proven. Everything got resolved. Bogus journalism subsidised through third party Scion fair gaming, at the behest of LRH.
It's OK though, sh*t happens. Werner has been kept busy with high level leadership programs around the world.
If a man sells enlightenment, then it is reasonable to evaluate the expression of that enlightenment in his behavior. If his behavior is cruel, malicious, destructive, and criminal; then this would cause one to question whether he actually posesses the thing he claims to; that thing being enlightenment.
In Buddhism this is how spiritual teachers are evaluated. There are only two bases upon which to evaluate a spiritual teacher; lineage and behavior.
Now Erhard had no lineage, therefore he can only be evaluated on the basis of his behavior.
It seems that he fled the country and went underground in Switzerland for decades rather than answer the charges that had been made against him.
Now that the statute of limitations has run out he is trying to engineer a come back in the United States. Unfortunately the charges were never answered or resolved. Re: incest with his daughter, rather than deny it, Erhard said it was a "loving thing".
That is right, this self proclaimed enlightened being boffed his daughter on the floor of a hotel room and described this as a, "loving thing".
Frankly, I just can't see that kind of delusional criminality being forgiven over time. He didn't do the time, and I can't see why he should be forgiven for the crime of violating this taboo.
Supermen invariably violate such boundaries and reveal their narcissism. This is not the behavior of an enlightened being. This is not an ad hominem fallacy.
BS, Tory does not hold herself up as a superhuman, an enlightened being, or a spiritual teacher. She portrays herself as a human being trying to live a useful life.
Clearly the standards by which we judge the behavior of an activist citizen are different than the standards we would apply to a spiritual teacher. To argue otherwise is absurd.
The allegations about Erhard's behavior as a father are not resolved. They stand. The incest charge stands. The stories of beatings stand.
Facts: Werner Erhard studied many disciplines and practices in the 1960s, among them scientology. Later, the Church of Scientology listed Erhard as a "Suppressive Person".On 20 December 1993, Erhard's brother Harry Rosenberg, CEO of Landmark Education...Ok, his brother started it! Type in Landmark+Scientology and read, learn, make up your own minds. Make sure to study both sides, is my main communication to all. I trust you'll make the correct decision IF you have ALL the info.
BS: Are you saying because Celebrities got suckered into LM, that this makes it legitimate? That's the exact non-logic Scientology pushes, too. Also, they "Get results", too. I didn't say they're part of Scientology. The Head of LM studied Scientology, broke away and now pitches his own Cult strategies. Per Academics who study Cults, anyone can get suckered in. People don't Join Cults (even me)----Cults find YOU.
I say it is legitimate. Without having to use famous names to legitimise it... unlike the Co$, they're not wheeled out to defend or promote it. These very contrasting known individuals I mentioned talk about their experience without any prompti
I'd like to know what your definition of a cult is and why you believe the LF is a break away from Scientology.
SerenityPresent 1 month ago
Thanks for posting this. I sat through the first day of Landmark, I've been part of Christian groups and have friends in AA. The one thing these groups have in common is that, while they might help people, there is also a message of "It helped me and if you don't want the same help, you are unhealthy." I don't mind people joining anything they want to, but the red flag goes up when someone decides that they know what's best for me and that living my life the way I want to is somehow unhealthy.
chipko1 2 months ago
If you are smart enough cults are fun if you are smart enough you can't be brainwashed only retards like this lady get sucked in for 30+ years same with those sucked into religion
RedTailedTuna 5 months ago
Yes cult cult cult get a life lady some of these cults help people some of them hurt people. Self help personal development crap is good for people. You've purpose on this web page is to prevent people from doing things that you don't agree with.
RedTailedTuna 5 months ago
A.A. is most diffinitely a 'stay with us or you'll die' cult. Bill Wilson didn't want any cult member of A.A. to pursue any 'abitions' because he just wanted them to attend AA cult meetings & have their whole life revolve around the cult of A.A. AA has a lot of stop-think slogans & empty platitudes, but no real principles other than 'the cult group knows all'.
lighwave 5 months ago 2
Thank you for your video :)
kerrykstirling 7 months ago
She did something- doesn't tell us what- and lost people in her life, and it was horrible so she blamed groups. Landmark and its predecessor had nothing to do with Scientology. Landmark offers seminars and courses- there's nothing to join and nothing to believe. There are lots of invitations, but they easily accept "no". Yes, some people like it so much they can be persistent with the people they care about. Landmark is not a cult in any way. All sorts of doctors have taken it...
r1a1s 7 months ago
I took courses in Scvientology in 1975, 2010 and 2011. Landmark Education since 1991 to 2011 off and on. I took the Landmark Forum, Advance Course, Communication I & II. Neither Programs "Brain Wash" you. They are Not Cults. Cults are Words to scare off people. Actually I don't believe most people know what the word Cult means. As for AA, It is a good program. I just wonder what this speakers intention is.
dallaselectras 7 months ago
@nosmokingpistol - That is total bollocks. AA is not a cult. It is a not for profit organisation as with NA and GA, you use it as you please and make contributions as you can afford it for very specific costs like literature and room hire. Where there's personal monetary gain, there's corruption, without corruption you can't have a cult, don't forget that.
UKhood83 1 year ago
Scientology and Landmark are obviously cults, but so is AA and all the 12-Step groups only in a more insidious way.
nosmokingpistol77 1 year ago
What do you think of Abraham Hicks ? And Thank,s LandMark is iF E my doc whants me to go ,go figer someone i dont want a conflict of interest. My thoughts of jesus being god is great but Aberham makes sense.
JesusJack4x4 1 year ago
hmmm thanks for the warning; although you don't make much sense :( Seems like you live in your own world or something.
FrOmThIsLiFeToDaNeXt 1 year ago
Comment removed
picassostrash 1 year ago
@picassostrash ummm, ok? Its called having a personality, and a sense of humor. Do you know what those are? She is clearly happy and liberated to be out of Scientology, if you cant see that she is trying to exude that in her videos, then you must not know anything about cults or the actual subject matter of her videos, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO BE commenting on anway, the SUBJECT MATTER. Instead of making personal remarks aimed at putting her down. GET A LIFE.
asemanasa 1 year ago
@picassostrash ummm, ok? Its called having a personality, and a sense of humor. Do you know what those are? She is clearly happy and liberated to be out of Scientology, if you cant see that she is trying to exude that in her videos, then you must not know anything about cults or the actual subject matter of her videos, WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSE TO BE commenting on anway, the SUBJECT MATTER. Instead of making personal remarks aimed at putting her down. GET A LIFE.
asemanasa 1 year ago
@FrOmThIsLiFeToDaNeXt another stupid comment.
asemanasa 1 year ago
Everyone was is different.... LRH might be full of shit. Scientology might be a scam.... (The lady above is correct, they are really nice at first but as the more you lose control of yourself the more controlling they become of you) But, Scientology did save my life from suicide and drug over dose attempts. So today, I am very thankful I am happy and I have to thank Scientology.... I'm not Scientologist but, I do sincerely thank them.
Supernaught16 1 year ago
Everything is not for everybody so thank you for speaking up and out
in the spirit of trying to help people that might get further damage by not having information that will help them to be more informed.
teddymike 1 year ago
FACTnet (dot) com---or (dot) org? Read there, for those trying to learn more about Cults, and what is and isn't a Cult. Best :)
ToryMagoo44 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
THIS IS NOT TRUE ! I support SO MUCH of what Tory says. She has AWESOME information about the Co$. BECAUSE she has been thru it. Tory has never been through the Landmark Forum, I have. Landmark is NOT a Cult. It isn't easy, and it isn't always fun. And it is not the same as being in Scientology. There is not Cult bullshit, no danger of being trapped in. While it is VERY compatible with AA, it is not vital to be in AA & do Landmark's courses. I see why she is confused, but this is not so.
Blitch66 1 year ago
Ha, this is like arguing with a small child who repeats whatever is said against them. Sorry if your not ziggy but everything you say is the same as him. You are defending two cults, the world recognises these as cults and because of that they are on the decline. You are wasting your time, the cults will end. Landmark is banned in most of europe, scientology is dying. You need to wake up and smell the coffee. youve been brainwashed, now you need to work on deprogramming yourself.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules, another stream of personal insults from the poster who flippantly accuses others of ALL the behaviors he embodys himself.
boominging 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules by "the world", do you mean the voices inside your own head? Or the 7+ billion people out there?
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging If you are insulted because I say cult members have been brainwashed the intenet might not be the place for you. When you wrote your last two posts did you notice any hypocricy? Implying I am scitzophrenic and condeming me for personal insults? The cults are dying.... excellent, less people will have their lives damaged, families destroyed, lives and personalities taken away. You can keep attacking critics of cults but the cults will end!
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules I am not "insulted" but you are making insults and personal attacks on posters. I never implied anything nor condemned you, i said very clearly what I meant.
boominging 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules your conduct on the internet is far more offensive then any groups out there. If any entity spoke to or dealt with people they way you do on-line, said entity would be shut down the same day. For some reason you think it is ok to personally attack people on-line but the objects of your rants are suppose to conform to your whims and ideals about how the world should be, You ever look in the mirror Mymunkeyruler?
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging So me making anti cult comments is more offensive than cults brainwashing people for money, destroying lives, removing personalities, breaking up families/relationships and causing suicides? You have got to be a troll. They are not personal attacks, I am criticising pro-cult comments. Only if you are deep in a cult could you see my comments as "personal attacks".
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules,there are many excellent critics who do not use insults nor emotional personal attacks on stangers on line . Mymunkeyruler, you embody thing you say that others are, it is in all your posts.
Labelling dessenting view as "trolls" is an attempt at mind and thought control.
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging As I first stated cult members will attack a critic instead of the criticism. ie you claim when I say critical things against cults is worse than what the cults do, I argue against this, you then claim I embody everthing I am against but do not address the points I made, youre just trying to discredit me. Thought control needs to be carried out in a controlled environment like landmark or scientology,it cant be done in an internet conversation.Google liftons thought reform.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules you are glossing over your name calling, personal attacks and insults towards people on line. Those are not "criticism". You are trying to shut people down and discredit others with your ad hominems. You are trying to influence others by shaming and nasty comments. You do embody many of the characteristics you are accusing others of.
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging What have I said that is SO offensive?! Calling cult members brainwashed and deluded is hardly a heinous attack! If it hurts so much you shouldnt have joined or defend a cult. You however are glossing over the crimes of cults. Brainwashing, destroying peoples personalities, breaking up families, causing suicides and you claim I am being offensive? Your hypocricy is an excellent example why people shouldnt pay to be reprogrammed by cults like landmark and scientology.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules you keep accusing others of making claims about you that they never made. Nobody called you a "Nazi",Nobody called you "evil" , Nobody said you were being "offensive", nobody "condemned" you nobody called you "scitzophrenic" , nobody said any of the things you are saying.
You are insulting people, posting personal attacks, making ad hominems on others, using tactics to silence others and being the very thing you accuse others of.
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging Thankyou for the perfect example of what Im talking about, attack the critic not the criticism. I'll ask again, what personal attacks have I made that are so offensive for you to go after me and ignore the terrible things these cults are doing? You implied or likened me to all you just listed, then made out Im wrong for calling you on them, typical landmark/scientology manipulation of language, sorry doesnt work on me.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyruler, I was not and am not "ignoring"anything. I was talking about your internet conduct.
End of my imput here.
boominging 1 year ago
If any group or large entity did what ToryMagoo44 was doing, a relentless campaign of harassment to malign others, people would cry foul. But because it is a much older lady who smiles plays music and dangles stuffed toys it is suppose to be somehow benign and on the side of "good". We have to all be subject to the same laws of devency we espouse about others. Other "groups" perceive they are "educating" others just as sincerely as ToryMagoo44 might fancy herself doing.
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging I only criticise the cult supportes who peddle crap like landmark and scientology and point out the manipulitive techniques and attitudes those cults and its members use. You keep implying that I am some kind of high school bully but Im only doing this because of the deep damage I have seen landmark do to families and peoples personalities.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules, self-justified & explaining yourself as being above your own stardards or not, you still appear to be doing the very thing you are accusing other of. But I don't need to imply or point that out, it is obvious in your posts. Just because you are enthusiastic about attackng a certain demographic that has caught your ire, you are one of those people who personally attack other people. Nazis explained themselves & thought they were entirely justified in their attacks on humans.
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging So Im a NAZI !! lol you gotta be a troll, either that or I feel very sorry for you. If anyone is intersted in landmark and scientology have a read through the "chat" me and this guy are having. It will give you a good insight into how someone who has been through "thought reform" (google it) thinks.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules, trying to muster up a little cyber mob now? I am not calling you a "Nazi" , I am saying that you are self justifying your behavior and conduct as many people have in the past. you are accusing others of behavior that you are actually perpetrating yourself but somehow exempting yourself from your own rules of conduct. Personal attacks and name calling are your MO Mymunkruler.
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging sorry the twisted logic you have been programmed with to keep you under the spell is just too confusing to keep up with. try reading liftons thought reform and key cult features, if you read it with an open mind and allow come critical judgement in your programming(even though youve been programmed not to) it might help you break out of the mind set you have been put in by recognising the manipulation you have been through. good luck.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules, and yet more condescending ad homonyms. Have you anything to say to people other than high and mighty personal attacks against others Mymunkyruler?
boominging 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules, it is your own behavior that seems to go unadressed on You Tube Mymunkruler . You seem ok with silencing other's free speech and attacking and labeling others and trying to control what others think by using constant personal insults to enforce your own point of view. Perhaps it is you who needs to read "Liftons thought reform and key cult features".
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging I recognise this whole arument as I have had it before. I believe you are a landmark staff member who has appeared under numerous account names starting as "zigzagidiot" am I right? If so you will remember when you made fun of lars(another landmark critic on yt) friends suicide. This will put the hypocricy of your current arument against me into perspective. Your current line is the standard distraction "oooh look how evil this guy is so ignore the nasty things he says about cults"
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules I never said you were "evil" just as I never said you were a "nazi". What I said, if you are interested in what other people say, I suspect you have no interest in what others say, was that, on YT, YOU Mymunkruler are doing the exact very things that YOU are accusing others of. It is not complicated.
boominging 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules, it is YOU who are lobbing the "standard distractions"
boominging 1 year ago
@Mymunkyrules, what sane person makes "fun of suicide"? More accusations , personal attacks, and name calling from you to others on line. .
boominging 1 year ago
You appear to be a very sweet and lovely person.Yes, i got through the first day and a half, saw it was bs, and left during a break on the second afternoon.I'm very glad you got throught this ordeal with your sense of humor intact.I wish the best for you in your evolution.
tet43 1 year ago
Landmark and Scientology may be "cults" but only as much as much as our families are and our for profit colleges are , for universities and the medical associations the military and sports teams are. Anywhere people gather in groups with a purpose and use language. Our country is a kind of cult that tries to indoctrinate other countries using advertising movies and other "techniques".
boominging 1 year ago
Landmark is a cult thats uses manipulitive techniques taken from scientology. You can always spot a cult member by the way they attack critics personally...see booinging and pauljames deluded comments below. Landmark is now banned or left most countries in Europe.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
Thanks to our Constitutional right of Freedom of Speech, misinformed people like you are able to say whatever they like, and operate as if the fact that they believe something makes it true. There is NO connection whatsoever between Scientology and Landmark Education. In FACT, it was Scientology that went to great lengths to character assassinate Werner Erhard and everything he did and stood for. For more info, get the book "The Three Laws of Performance."
Pauljames720 1 year ago
@Pauljames720
Of course Landmark has nothing to do with Scientology (not that there is anything wrong with Scientology). The internet has made an opportunity for every single person to say anything accurate or not, no matter how much it may harm others, without consequences. to themselves. You Tube, in part, has become an opportunity to gossip and slander others.
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging There is something wrong with scientology. It is a religion of secrecy that shows no trust in individuals before they prove themselves loyal to the organization when it, scientology, does not show the same trust in others by retaining a structure of secrecy.
hawasawayahawa 1 year ago
@hawasawayahawa
what group in thai world does not have some culture or religion of secrecy? Can you name one? What you are saying is not unique to them IMO. As we approach a 10 billion person planet, it seems that people need to do certain things to survive and that includes you and me as well. Saying it is just one group is a distortion of reality and dishonest.
Is the US governement not a religion and culture of secrecy?
boominging 1 year ago
@boominging There is a problem with your logic. A government is not a religion but it is a culture of secrecy even though a genuine democracy should contain no such culture.
However, there are many religions without such secrecy in its culture, Buddhism and Sunni Islam to name a few. By the way, I am an atheist, so I don't need to go further in describing my lack of trust in religion in general, but scientology stands out as a heirarchical system of extreme secrecy just as the free masons.
hawasawayahawa 1 year ago
@boominging It nears to impossible to prove to what extent of damage can be done on individuals as individuals who CAN speak out about what they know are bound by legal agreements they've signed with the body of scientology to that secrecy. So, in essence, we're looking at a philosophy that guards itself from criticism by hiding its real code of ethics.
hawasawayahawa 1 year ago
the distinction of an "asshole" is someone who knows what works, but still chooses to do what doesnt work. For example being a point of view about something ie "being on it" and choosing not to get off it. Or running your racket and knowing that you are running a racket, and not choosing to get off it. Or being out of integrity and choosing not to be responsible and clean up the mess youve caused. There is nothing right ot wrong - just being and asshole (or jerk)
standinginnothing 1 year ago
The worst thing about landmark is what it does to peoples personalities. Part of the programming (like all cults) is to convince you all non landmarkers are "assholes" (in werners words). After the forum participents become aloof, superior people who can dismiss everone else's thoughts and emotions..... only they know the truth. everyone else is deluding themselves.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
I know many who have done the Forum as I did, and they're absolutely normal, balanced people who are not "assholes".
doogadoogie 1 year ago
@doogadoogie read my post again.
Mymunkyrules 1 year ago
I went to the forum years ago and did get something out it and that was the end of that.
Having said that, I did see a lot of "smiley, happy-happy, joy-joy" people and have also wondered the level of fanaticism in there.
I guess no different than when I went to a Brian Tracy seminar and you see a swarm of people chasing the dude as if he was our next messiah! Tony Robbins, same thing.. a lot of fanatics there too! Just do whatever u think will help and don't be a groupie!
ncteth 2 years ago
The Landmark organisation is pushy, I agree, in terms of wanting you to do more and more. But, the education itself is great. I have a degree in psych and I can tell you this isn't brainwashing, mind control or a cult. It is a self development education. The problem is when you finish you are encouraged to enroll friends and family and to do more courses yourself.. 'that' is the negative.
occamsrazor001 2 years ago
@occamsrazor001 - I agree. The pressure to enroll in more classes and others is obnoxious. But, no one in my Forum seemed traumatized. Glad I experienced the Forum and assisted in another, and I review the material often to keep it fresh.
doogadoogie 2 years ago
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doorshape 2 years ago
@occamsrazor001 they use their own distinctions in their own orgnaisation and teach other the same way ie to go beyond what sotops you, being unreasonable, being a stand etc
standinginnothing 1 year ago
@standinginnothing That's not a proof it's not a break off of scientology. Lutherism has its own distinctions, but it is a break off of Cathelocism.
hawasawayahawa 1 year ago
@hawasawayahawa True, it not proof. I have no proof of anything in life. I consider christianity to be a cult. "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers" would be an example and is not unlike scientologies practice of shunning those who dont accept their beliefs, amongst many weird beliefs. The virgin birth is no more weird than thetans in volcanoes.
standinginnothing 1 year ago
Food for thought:
Just as one can be a junkie FOR something, one can be a junkie AGAINSTsomething.
It's to be expected that given Tory's extreme experience FOR Co$ that she now gives equal energy AGAINST Co$. It's the nature of the convert personality; the pendulum swings from one end to the other with equal force and energy.
Real freedom for her - and others who had this awful experience in Co$ - will come when she detaches altogether and she is then free to create some thing new.
doogadoogie 2 years ago
When landmark was called est its followers were refered to as "estholes" due to their superior attitude, now they are "landroids" cus they are brainwashed robots who have lost there own personality.
Mymunkyrules 2 years ago
I did the Landmark Forum about 5 years ago. Negatives: Pressure to recruit friends/family and to keep going with next courses. I chose not to continue with the programs.
However, it helps me deal with a number of issues in a very positive and productive way. Their concepts can be found at their website under course syllabus.
Anything in excess is a cult. Enjoy in moderation. Too much of anything is bad. Booze, sex (see Tiger), potato chips, and Landmark.
doogadoogie 2 years ago
From Skeptic's Dictionary:
est bears little resemblance to Dianetics or Scientology, however. est is a hodgepodge of philosophical bits and pieces culled from the carcasses of existential philosophy, motivational psychology, Maxwell Maltz's Psycho-cybernetics, Zen Buddhism, Alan Watts, Freud, Abraham Maslow, L. Ron Hubbard, Hinduism, Dale Carnegie, Norman Vincent Peale, P.T. Barnum, and anything else that Erhard's intuition told him would work in the burgeoning Human Potential market.
spendthriftdagger 2 years ago
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goldcargoldlbody 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Landmark is as much a cult as community theatre, organized religion or politics; i.e. anywhere that accepts the socially awkward as real people. It does have an aggressive marketing campaign which is (arguably) altruistic. I browbeat anyone who was involved for 13 years until I finally decided that if I was going to criticize something that I should see what it was really about. And btw, its not an offshoot of scientology, in fact Hubbard was out to get Erhard, you should do your research.
MrHburger 2 years ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Landmark Education is NOT cult. I can easely prove it. I have the evidence in my hand right now. It's a list of persons proving that L E is not a cult nor cult-like. It's really an impressive list. The organisation that have studied L E and is presenting this list of experts is...Harvard Business School!!! I can give you the names, as I can give you the name of the report and order nr. of the material. It's under copyright. The proof! If you really want to know...
-Hans Stockholm, Sweden
MauriceFlower 2 years ago
Hans, The veracity of evidence is not status based. To suggest that the opinions held by members or alumni of prestigious institutions is of greater merit than that held by alumni of B or C schools is just plain nonsense, anti-science, and preposterous. But, you go ahead and present your argument. I doubt is is elegant or anything but anecdotal.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
some people think that AA is a cult
Electric99 2 years ago
Electric99, Robert Sapolsky has some interesting things to say on the idea of 12 step programs being a substitute addiction for alcoholism, narcotics, sex, or whatever. He argues that all speak to particular compulsive personality disorders.
Well, at least AA won't rot your liver and pickle your brain. Maybe it is more akin to methadone than a cult.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
I LOVE ALANIS!
trytosingalong 2 years ago
Consider: At FACE VALUE Jhn4:16a:
" I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE "
One might think Jesus claimed to be THE ONLY WAY TO GOD! However, the Greek these words came from suggests otherwise:
I AM: hodos [hoh-DOHS] (a manner of thinking); aletheia [ah-LEH-theh-iah] (objective truth (e.g. The Gospel ACCORDING TO); zoe [zoh-AY] (vitality).
The Article -THE- makes t/English appear DEFINITE (e.g. the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, the ONLY life). But IT IS NOT PRESENT in the original Greek.
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98, I do not impute a singularity to John 4:16. Yes, there are many gospels; some in the Bible, and some excluded. Regardless, this passage clearly indicates that the God of the old testament is mediated through Jesus. All of the gospels are about Jesus. That is what the "good news" is supposed to be...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
LANDMARK is marked for obsolition. Scientolygy has lots of cannonfodder still lurking
KittyKatSpanker 2 years ago
You seem to have a problem with the fact that most people feel much better about themselves after doing the Landmark Forum, and criticise Landmark for "deifying the ego." But my reading Matthew 5 suggests that God seems to be ok with people realizing their potential and having a healthy self-esteem: "Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.... Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven."
navygolf98 2 years ago
good for you tory. we are lucky to have someone who had to go through all the scientology crap and are able to speak about it.
also, you are not afraid. that i admire the most
zerojoy 2 years ago 7
Good words, Tory. Thanks!
11Jamie11 2 years ago 3
Hmmm. I can't recommend Landmark even though the Forum itself was a great experience for me. Their perversion of the distinction "enrollment" destroys their credibility with me. They take a great, socratic self-examination and try to turn you into a selling machine for them. It was my experience at the Forum that started my career as a Scientology critic and, ironically, a Landmark critic. "Empty and meaningless" changed my life in a big way, and for that, I'm grateful.
artoo45 2 years ago
Thanks for this (& that) Artoo45...
and: I think the reply goes "I wasn't making the bulb wrong, it IS wrong, I was just pointing it out"
BloggStandard 2 years ago
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standinginnothing 1 year ago
Q: How many Landmark Education International Leaders does it take to fix the copier?
A: Usually, about six.
One to clear the paper jam, and 5 to provide a powerful listening.
BloggStandard 2 years ago
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artoo45 2 years ago
How would Hubbard have felt about $cientology having front groups? I mean... shouldn't a Ronbot be PROUD to be a Ronbot? If you have to CONCEAL $cientology from the people you're trying to recruit, you're way down the Tone Scale, aren't you?
doobedoo22 2 years ago
"Has anyone ever had dealings with this lovely cult? I'm watching my sister and her husband sink into an emotional and financial pit because of Landmark Education. All of their free time is devoted to working (for FREE) for this cult."
FACTnet (dot) org---search Landmark. Read, LOOK, listen: Make up your *own* minds :)
Love to all,
Tory/Magoo
ToryMagoo44 2 years ago
Landmark in a nutshell:
/watch?v=yK2SDf-KWbs
video titled, "The Landmark Forum for Cats".
This video covers; the man machine, bowel and bladder control, rackets, strong suits, the power exercise, fear, the meaningless and emptiness of life, creating your own reality, the come on for the next seminar.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
"Reebok contracted with Landmark for a two year initiative in generating significant increases in performance & productivity. This is a new environment that elicits peoples committed action and in which they generate new approaches and activities that lead to a breakthrough in our results. Our experience has been that Landmark operates with the highest standards of professional conduct and integrity."
Paul Fireman, Chairman & CEO, Reebok International Ltd - From a letter dated March 7, 1996
BloggStandard 2 years ago
BS, Nice advertisement there.
So, 13 years later... what was the impact of this initiative? You know that the track record of such mass training/mind manipulation boot camps is abysmal.
Note that Paul Fireman claimed in January of this year that his family and his foundation were robbed of $25 million by a trusted friend and advisor of 25 years.
So, how good a judge of character can Paul Fireman be?
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
BS, Sorry I don't do PM.
As I indicated, my experience of EST is through EST graduates I have known (ESTholes if you can take a joke), and indirectly through a student of Stewart Emery. Stewart was the first CEO of EST. He parted ways with Erhard over ethical considerations.
This kind of work can be very dangerous and if not tempered with wisdom and compassion can be very destructive. Watts knew this. Emery discovered this. Erhard never figured out the psychic damage he was doing.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
BS, Don't get me wrong, I don't think that such work is entirely without merit. What I learned does permit me to achieve ruthlessly effective results where I choose to apply the tools; but the context is very dangerous. The sense of bottomless obligation to the organization is insidious.
There is a time for moving on from the organization. To the degree that the work is legitimate, one can apply it as an individual while still being authentically oneself. Sadly that is rare...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
BS, I believe it is rare because the work is focused on imitation of Erhard; and imitation of another can never be authentic.
To be oneself, one must contextualize the process of discovery. That cannot happen in a short period of time. My experience is that it takes years of practice with a legitimate teacher in an authentic lineage before the fruits of refuge are born as deep gratitude. Refuge is the key, and only a realized being can grant this. EST didn't produce any realized beings.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
BS, there are no shortcuts. Each one's path is unique in details and in duration. For me guru yoga works. It works because it takes up residence in the heart. Rimpoche gave me the gift of refuge, the gift of a lineage and practice unbroken for nearly 2500 years.
EST and it's descendents essentially deify the ego. Authentic spiritual work puts the ego in it's place. Ego is not to be confused with personality. It is just one part of what we are. Watts knew this. Erhard still does not "get it".
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
BS, In a sense the difference between the fantasy of instant enlightenment and the opportunity of a lifetime of diligent practice is the difference between obligation and gratitude.
Rimpoche will always have my gratitude. This is a pure thing. By contrast, my appreciation of my EST descended experience will always be tempered by the reaction that my rejection of this bottomless obligation (the real trap) provoked.
I can watch my mind, it's habits, obsessions, and tricks. This is liberation.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
I didn't participate in the EST training, but my experience of the Landmark Forum was quite different from how you have described EST. Rather than "deifying the ego," LM's programs have helped me catch myself when my ego is running the show and be more true to principles of love and compassion. I see no relationship between LM and characteristics of "cults." Cults separate people from those who don't join. Landmark brings people together, irrespective of who does the Forum and who does not.
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98,
The fruit does not fall far from the tree. such folk sayings may be hackneyed, but the truth in them is undenyable.
If you think that Landmark Forum is of a different kind than EST, then look again. My experience of graduates is that they have a great deal in common. The differences are about style and inflection, or branding/marketing. But, the self absorbed, self righteous, and self justifying core is unchanged. This is the celebration of ego to which I refer...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... the fantasy that morality is purely subjective is a dangerous one. This fantasy is at the core of scientology, occultism, EST, and Landmark Forum.
Imagine what a cruel and mean spirited world we would live in if everyone subscribed to this delusion, and regarded social norms of behavior as optional, or even detrimental... A world in which everyone is out for their own animalistic objectives.
That is the goal of these organizations. Not coincidentally, it is also the end of civilization
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago 2
... This is why the circumstances of L. Ron Hubbard's death by drug overdose is a cautionary tale. This is also why the downfall of Werner Erhard after an incestuous lust festival on the floor of a hotel room with his daughter is also a cautionary tale.
Why would anyone want to model themselves after such persons? What makes these models of humanity even momentarily believable?
Just because one has human form, does not necessarily mean that one is living the life of a human being...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago 2
The hallmarks of a human being are clarity, compassion, patience, common sense, intelligence, emotional availability, and engagement in the world around them.
Certain key qualities of the human experience are disparaged and denigrated by scientology, EST, occultism, and Landmark Forum. These qualities are universal prerequisites to any form of enlightenment, and to all spiritual traditions. Without them, all that remains is the ego delusion. This is a very dangerous thing.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... The christian metaphor for this kind of idol worship is that of Satan. Yes, one can sell their soul to the archangel in exchange for some worldly wealth or success or power; but there is a price to be paid. Such deals should never be mistaken for "enlightenment".
Yes, I do mean to suggest that Werner Erhard and L. Ron Hubbard are/were Pied Piper's for the devil. As such, none of their teachings support the development of the full human being; rather crippled souls in human form.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Anon, spirituality, morality, and ethics are important to me too. Doing the Landmark Forum has brought me back to my church, which I had been away from, brought me much closer to my parents, and gave me the courage to go after things that were truly important to me instead of what I thought would make me look good in front of other people or live up to others' expectations. I believe that God wants us to be happy, thus I have to believe God wants us to engage in type of inquiry Landmark offers.
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98,
I am pleased to hear that you are engaged in family and community; but am baffled by your denial of the irreconcilability of two disparate value systems. Assuming your church is one of the big three monotheistic religions... how can you reconcile scripture and doctrine with the fundmental new age precept that, "what is true for you is true".
This precept is at odds with and in fundamental contradiction to the core concept of a one true god. These value systems cannot be reconciled.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
navygolf,
"I believe that God wants us to be happy, thus I have to believe God wants us to engage in type of inquiry Landmark offers."
There is no clear scriptural support for the notion that god wants us to be either happy or unhappy. Life has many aspects which are pleasant, and many which are painful. I believe we are admonished to live our lives well regardless of whether our name might be Jove or Job.
Not all inquiry is good. This is a recurring object lesson in mythology and religion.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Again, I get that you have opinions about whether "all inquiry is good," whether what Landmark offers is "good," and whether God wants us to be happy or unhappy. And I respect those opinions. I also think that people who are truly "Christian" and living out the philosophy of "love thine enemy" have to be willing to do exactly what Landmark is teaching people to do: to stop relating to their opinions as the truth and have compassion and understanding for their fellow man.
navygolf98 2 years ago
Anon--you are confusing philosophical and religious concepts with your comment here. Landmark's inquiry is primarily a remake of the dialogue between Socrates and Glaucon in Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." In that dialogue, you will recall, Socrates illustrates that most human beings believe that their interpretations about reality are "the truth," when in reality they are only shadows on the wall. This notion is embedded within the great spiritual texts of every major religion.
navygolf98 2 years ago
In other words, embedded in the assertion that LM and, say, Christianity juxtapose two "irreconcilable value systems" is the assumption that what LM is presenting is, in fact, a value system. Landmark is doing no such thing--LM does not present, analyze, or consider any value system. The closest LM comes to doing that is LM's assertion that integrity, morality, and ethics are distinct from one another, which strikes me (and Webster's dictionary) as a pretty obvious (and innocuous) concept.
navygolf98 2 years ago
Anon- You wrote that LM is "irreconcilable" with the Abrahamic religions because they teach a doctrine that you summarized as "what is true for you is true." But Landmark doesn't actually say that. All Landmark says is "what occurs as true for you occurs as true for you." This is a subtle but critical distinction. Truth, of course, always exists, but our perception of truth will always be colored by our interpretations. There's nothing sacreligious about acknowledging the human condition.
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98, OK. Landmark teaches; "what occurs as true for you occurs as true for you". Occur, according to Merriam Webster is 1) to appear, 2) to happen, 3) to come to mind. Thus the subtle semantic massaging (rebranding) that has been applied to LRH's core belief is fundamentally unaltered, and transparently squirreled tech. The meaning is unaltered from the original, "what is true for you is true". This is not reconcilable with John 14:6; I am the way, the truth, and the light...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... No one comes to the father except through me.
Neither can this subjective view of the universe be reconciled with core Islamic doctrine, "There is no god but god".
All three faiths acknowledge the fundmental danger in false inquiry, false doctrine, and false gods. That is what scientology is; the deification of the ego. This is the manufacture of a golden idol.
I know Plato's Republic well. The ego is a shadow on the wall of the cave, not to be mistaken for something of substance...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... If you are not shackled in this cave (if your free will has not been enslaved by some shiny fashionable and convenient dogma such as scientology or it's children); then you are free to turn your head and look out into the light of day; to look upon things themselves.
The entire cave metaphor depends upon the idea that there is such a thing as truth, and there are such things as shadows. There are things themselves, and there are seemings (things as they seem to be). Scientology denies this.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
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AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... so do the children of scientology deny the very possibility of an objective truth. They do not claim that discernment of truth is arduous. They deny that there is such a thing as truth.
The lie that, "what is true for you is true" is both seductive and instrumental. At core it is the seed of heresy from either a Scientific perspective, or an Abrahamic one. It is the death of culture, the end of civilization, and the denial of the very notion of progress. It is the end of the modern world...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... It is the core concept which invokes and reinforces the intellectual dissonance (confusion) necessary as a pre-condition for mind reform.
It is facile, irresponsible, and intellectually sloppy to regurgitate this core tenet, "what is true for you is true". The subject-object relationship is much more complicated and nuanced than such a platitude can convey. Yet this core tenet is present in all of the squirrel tech, as in Scientology itself, albeit subtly rephrased and reframed.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
While LM may motivate one to engage in social institutions out of unvarnished self interest; it is still at core a denial of all values other than those that seem right to the adherent at the moment. Primacy is granted to the thoughts, feelings, fantasies, and desires of the adherent; to the exclusion of the contents of any one else's body or mind. And, the notion of truth or a social contract is deemed ludicrous.
This is a deviant's wet dream; a child molester's dream come true; LRH paradise.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Anon, I cannot comment on LRH or Scientology, as my knowledge of that subject is limited to a single book I have read by Hubbard ("Scientology: Fundamentals of Thought") that I found to be rather poorly written and uninspired. The topic I feel I can speak to with a bit more authority is Landmark Education as it relates to the major teachings of the Abrahamic religions. I don't know how much exposure you have had to Landmark, but from your comments LM seems quite different from Scientology.
navygolf98 2 years ago
The entire basis for your objection to Landmark seems to be based on a false premise: that Landmark teaches "what is true for you is true." This is simply factually incorrect; Landmark teaches no such thing. What Landmark does say is that, while most people think of themselves as open-minded and objective, in fact our approach to ourselves, our circumstances, and to others is often filtered or even obscured by pre-existing notions and ideas. Do you dispute the validity of this concept?
navygolf98 2 years ago
"Landmark teaches no such thing." If so, then please explain the difference between the LRH line on truth and the LM one that you quoted. The rebranding is too subtle for me to distinguish between them. It looks to me like a paraphrasing in order to avoid a copyright infringement lawsuit.
I contend that this conception of the ultimate subjectivity of truth is a core concept in satanism, scientology, LM, The Forum, EST, and several other organizations; and that it is fundamentally at odds with..
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... at odds with the scientific method, the western cannon, and Abrahamic faith.
Yes, I dispute the validity and the usefulness of the application of quantum theory to the consciousness of the individual. This is simply a slick way of applying the "confusion technique", a pre-condition to mind reform. At best it is pretend Buddhism.
I do acknowledge the usefulness of psychology, and the power of the unconscious mind; but scientology and it's children deny this out of hand. It threatens them.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
...and your contention is based on a false premise that I believe in "ultimate subjectivity." I do not believe in any such thing. I believe that my perception of the truth is subjective, but the truth is ultimately objective. This is a very, very basic concept of both eastern and western philosophy and all major world religions...do you really think that this proposition is debateable?
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98, I contend that the confusion technique applied around this core issue is what permits adherents to hold utterly contradictory belief systems without feeling the need to try and reconcile them. This is the secret ingredient that mind reform organizations have in common. It opens the door to all manner of aberrations, delusions, and self absorbed behavior.
It is not possible to believe that there is Truth, and that there is no Truth simultaneously. The conscious mind prohibits this.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Again, I am not familiar enough with LRH or Scientology to feel comfortable offering an opinion as to how Scientology compares with Christianity, Hinduism, baseball, rock climbing, Landmark, or anything else. What I do know is that I have never heard anyone at Landmark assert or even imply that "the truth does not exist." The truth does exist. If the truth did not exist we wouldn't be able to fly airplanes, build computers and the like. It is just that we perceive "the truth" through a filter
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98, "It is just that we perceive "the truth" through a filter"
Where is this filter? Can I touch, taste, smell, measure, quantify, or document it? No. Because it does not exist. This is the sine qua non of EST... Follow me now. The pitch goes like this... You are not living up to your full potential because you are distracted and confused by mysterious filters which have accreted on your mind/body as a result of living in a decadent and chaotic reality. You need to be "cleared" Get it?
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
navygolf98, You are more familiar with LRH than you realize. LM is rebranded Scientology. That is what the term "squirreled tech" indicates.
There is really no fundamental reason that a universe devoid of Truth would necessarily preclude any of the marvels of technology. The problem is that it could just as easily hold magic above science. In such a universe I could transform myself into an Icharus like being or a flying monkey for less than the cost of an airline ticket...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... In such a universe I could remake myself into all manner of fantastic things, an explorer, a nuclear physicist, a student of eastern mysticism, a ship's captain, a war hero, the youngest eagle scout ever. I could make up all sorts of things and like Peter Pan if I wished hard enough I could make others buy into these fantasies too. I could do all of this without unequivocally denying the existence of Truth. All I would need is that opening, that intellectual dissonance...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... the distance between these two frames is a short one:
What is true for you is true.
What is true for me is true for you.
This is where the children of LRH end up. This is totalitarianism embedded in illogic and intellectual dissonance.
Like the frog placed in a pot of tepid water, the heat being gradually and incrementally applied, the frog's natural defense mechanisms are foiled. Result: frog soup. This is how mind reform works... One kumbaya, one group hug, one aha at a time. Get it?
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
I see absolutely no contradiction between LM's premise that human beings' perception of the world is colored by their past experiences and the passage of the Bible you quoted. Assume for a moment that the passage means "Jesus's teachings are 'the truth." Landmark leaves its customers absolutely free to go on believing that. For instance, I believed John 14:6 before the LMF and I continue to believe that after the LMF. And I acknowledge that others might have a different point of view.
navygolf98 2 years ago
Now, as a Christian, I personally believe that the better interpretation of John 14:6 is that Jesus was claiming to be "THE Truth," which is why I do my best, however imperfectly, to follow Him every day. But someone else might interpret John 14:6 differently: that Jesus wasn't claiming to be the ONLY way to God. LM doesn't offer any opinion one way or the other. LM only says that which point of view you choose is likely to be colored by your past experiences. How can anyone argue with that?
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98. "... which point of view you choose is likely to be colored by your past experiences. How can anyone argue with that?"
I know that this sounds reasonable on the face of it, but lift the lid on this dumpster and take a hard look at the fetid reality contained within.
LM doesn't offer an opinion one way or the other because LM has absolutely nothing to do with living a good life. LM does not speak to what a life well lived might be like...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... The sole focus of LM is on being effective (read powerful) in this life. This has nothing to do with being kind, wise, compassionate, or godly. Those words are frankly regarded as distractions and delusions for small people, ineffective people, weak people.
Yet, these are the same people that according to the Bible are to inherit the earth... the meek. This is yet another contradiction to be explained away with vague allusions to quantum mechanics...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
The other magic wand used to make these words disappear is the "wisdom tradition/eastern mysticism" wand. This is bunkum. There is no eastern mysticism without mantra and/or meditation in the context of a generational lineage...
The children of LRH do not have a lineage, a mantra, and do not practice meditation. The whole twisted family tree is less than 60 years old. The references to eastern mysticism are pure unadulterated malapropism and outright sleight of hand...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... this is mail order cartoon spirituality of the kind that Wylie Coyote might order from the ACME Company. It never ends well.
Caveat Emptor. Consider yourself lucky if the box arrives empty.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
But if you really do want to discuss Landmark as it relates to Christianity or other religions, I want to make sure I am not wasting my time trying to talk to someone who is not informed as to what they are talking about. Anon, have you actually done the Landmark Forum, or are you just going off of what you have read on the internet and assuming that it is "just like Scientology?"
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf, You seem to be implying that one must experience a thing itself as a pre-condition to knowing what that thing is about. This is not surprisingly a refrain that Scientologists engage in routinely... Read the book and decide for yourself. This is really just another way of saying, "What is true for you is true". If 3% of readers end up giving money to the organization, then this is a winning come on, but it is still a come on.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
navygolf, The burden of proof is not on me to define the ways in which Werner Erhard's squirreled tech as currently practiced in LandMark/Forum differs from the source (L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology). Rather, the burden of proof is on LandMark to distinguish itself and it's offering as distinct from the source (L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology).
But, you can't do that because you refuse to inform yourself about the origins of LM; it's ideological lineage; it's history. This rings hollow.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
navygolf98, I have shared before that my experience of EST is through a student of Stewart Emory. I am not sure that this would mean anything to you because you appear believe that LM sprung up spontaneously and whole in some moment of brilliant divinity.
I contend that all ideology is embedded in it's historical context. Stripped of this context, it is nothing but superstition and magical thinking. Avert your eyes to history and you embrace darkness...
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... to put this another way, the Bible speaks to false prophets, bad fruit, and the lineage of bad ideology quite unequivocally beginning in Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
This is the proper view of LRH, Dianetics, Scientology, EST, LandMark, The Forum, and all other descendents of the fruits of the mind of L. Ron Hubbard. This lineage extends back to Alistaire Crowley (the beast).
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Anon, if you want to have a reasoned, rational discussion about LM, I am open to that. I think I asked you a very legitimate, straightforward question as to whether you agree with this central component of philosophy: ultimate truth exists and is "objective," however human beings have only subjective means for discerning objective truth. LM didn't come up with this idea...it was first and most famously articulated by Plato. But it is an important LM idea, too. Do you challenge it? If so, why?
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98, I do not see an identity relationship between your personal view of truth and that of the children of LRH. You appear to buy the central Platonic concept of the eidos. So do I.
But, neither Scientology nor any of the squirrel tech descendants of this mother-ship accept this concept. They reject it as quaint and delusional. The eidos does not accord with a post-modern world view. It does not accord with the tech. It therefore cannot be an LM idea.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
navygolf98, Even angels are vulnerable to confusion, vulnerable to the will to power, and capable of seeking balm for a damaged ego. There are critical differences between Lucifer and Gabriel. Both are powerful, skilled, and purposeful...
It is not enough to grant temporal power to beings without discernment and character. That is the danger of the children of LRH. The "tech" or the "tools" are powerful, but they are given without proper; context, training, motivation and constraint... Truth.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Anon, you claim that mankind accepting that he has only a subjective perception of ultimate truth will lead to the "end of civilization." So please explain to me why it is that civilization has not yet ended over 2500 years after Socrates and Plato first articulated and spread these ideas?
navygolf98 2 years ago
navygolf98, Civilization did end for several hundred years between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Enlightenment. This was called the Dark Ages. This is a history thing which is not very convenient for the children of LRH.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
... The inconvenience of history is that it prohibits one from attempting to mash-up ideas from different systems of thought as if they were of a kind... Socratic thought does not easily mesh with Aristotelian thought. These thoughts do not easily mesh with modern scientific thought, especially quantum physics; and eastern mysticism is not some kind of magic glue for making these disparate and incompatible ideas stick together. It fails on so many levels that it is hard to know where to begin.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
navygolf98, Correction... This should read... between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance (rather than the Enlightenment which came later). The point of course is that Western civilization has not been contiguous, and there is no guarantee that it will continue in perpetuity.
Ancient thinking, Renaissance thinking, Enlightenment thinking, modern Scientific thinking, post-modern thinking, and Eastern Mysticism cannot be mixed up indiscriminately with useful or meaningful results.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Thanks to each of you for posting more and more of the facts re all of this. I had no idea.....
One more person, by the way, just got free from the Cult of Scientology W.I.S.E. Group (Another front group of theirs---under the umbrella of C of $ if you're reading this and thinking of using their "management tech").
Scientology breaks up families, stops free speech and practices "Fair Game"---all while SELLING "Freedom".
Read, look, listen: Make up your *own* minds.
My best :)
Tory/Magoo
ToryMagoo44 2 years ago
hi tory...i asked a friend in a.a. about help for a friend who was on heroin.they suggested narcanon...when i checked it out i found that narcanon is run by scientology.... and so of course i researched it more and found out a lot of scary things about the narcanon program........point is that they are all sorts of things that scientology has as fronts basically....n.a. or narcotics anonymous is the same as a.a. alcoholics anonymous, the twelve steps and traditions..narcanon is a trick.
yorkandpomona 2 years ago 2
Thanks for the Video. My Boss's Mentor insisted that he go and do Landmark because it will help his business. So he did. He came back to work the next week and was trying to force us all to go too.
It was a pretty bad situation, we all went and it was a very wierd experience. The room was freezing! I wanted out so I went to go to the bathroom and they stopped the seminar when I stood to ask me where i was going. i was escorted to the bathroom then jumped out the window.
Never again. Thanks!
akiradoe 2 years ago 3
As I've said, for any group, read *both* sides, and then make up your own mind. This includes those lurking who are "in" Scientology. Cults are manipulative, promise you need them, keep you for hours, have one leader, have loaded language, etc. So far, to me Landmark fills that bill. However, this video is to tell those who are being told they need Landmark, to LOOK at both sides, before you hop on that train.
My best to all :)
Tory/Magoo
ToryMagoo44 2 years ago
It didn't take very long for the ad hominem attacks to start.
Q: What's different about doing that here and the stuff the Co$ say about Tory's character?
Just for the record: All allegations that came to a head around the point Erhard split were never proven. Everything got resolved. Bogus journalism subsidised through third party Scion fair gaming, at the behest of LRH.
It's OK though, sh*t happens. Werner has been kept busy with high level leadership programs around the world.
BloggStandard 2 years ago
BS, There are no ad hominem attacks here.
If a man sells enlightenment, then it is reasonable to evaluate the expression of that enlightenment in his behavior. If his behavior is cruel, malicious, destructive, and criminal; then this would cause one to question whether he actually posesses the thing he claims to; that thing being enlightenment.
In Buddhism this is how spiritual teachers are evaluated. There are only two bases upon which to evaluate a spiritual teacher; lineage and behavior.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
Now Erhard had no lineage, therefore he can only be evaluated on the basis of his behavior.
It seems that he fled the country and went underground in Switzerland for decades rather than answer the charges that had been made against him.
Now that the statute of limitations has run out he is trying to engineer a come back in the United States. Unfortunately the charges were never answered or resolved. Re: incest with his daughter, rather than deny it, Erhard said it was a "loving thing".
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
That is right, this self proclaimed enlightened being boffed his daughter on the floor of a hotel room and described this as a, "loving thing".
Frankly, I just can't see that kind of delusional criminality being forgiven over time. He didn't do the time, and I can't see why he should be forgiven for the crime of violating this taboo.
Supermen invariably violate such boundaries and reveal their narcissism. This is not the behavior of an enlightened being. This is not an ad hominem fallacy.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
BS, Tory does not hold herself up as a superhuman, an enlightened being, or a spiritual teacher. She portrays herself as a human being trying to live a useful life.
Clearly the standards by which we judge the behavior of an activist citizen are different than the standards we would apply to a spiritual teacher. To argue otherwise is absurd.
The allegations about Erhard's behavior as a father are not resolved. They stand. The incest charge stands. The stories of beatings stand.
AnonRanGERO1 2 years ago
The clothing company Lululemon puts all it's full time employees through Landmark training. It is considered a free 'gift'.
Snarkonymous 2 years ago
Facts: Werner Erhard studied many disciplines and practices in the 1960s, among them scientology. Later, the Church of Scientology listed Erhard as a "Suppressive Person".On 20 December 1993, Erhard's brother Harry Rosenberg, CEO of Landmark Education...Ok, his brother started it! Type in Landmark+Scientology and read, learn, make up your own minds. Make sure to study both sides, is my main communication to all. I trust you'll make the correct decision IF you have ALL the info.
TLC
ToryMagoo44 2 years ago
BS: Are you saying because Celebrities got suckered into LM, that this makes it legitimate? That's the exact non-logic Scientology pushes, too. Also, they "Get results", too. I didn't say they're part of Scientology. The Head of LM studied Scientology, broke away and now pitches his own Cult strategies. Per Academics who study Cults, anyone can get suckered in. People don't Join Cults (even me)----Cults find YOU.
My Best,
Tory/Magoo
ToryMagoo44 2 years ago
I say it is legitimate. Without having to use famous names to legitimise it... unlike the Co$, they're not wheeled out to defend or promote it. These very contrasting known individuals I mentioned talk about their experience without any prompti