This is so much better then the stupid amf 8270 in my bowling center. One time in my bowling center the table came down and only set 9 pins! and it is a ten pin bowling center :I
The ninepin free fall pinsetter from Schmid Switzerland was the prototype for all GS pinsetters. Brunswick took over the leader of string pinsetters Schmid the last century.
He basically told to stop where they were and give it another try or they were going to have problems, needless to say they threw him out of the factory. Later once they found out how bad these machines were fired the engineers and invited him back lol. i do like the fact that they got rid of the shacker board though
i work with a guy who's father was around since the beginning of AMF, he taught him everything about them and started working on the 30 series when he was 12. He was telling me that once upon a time Brunswick was giving him a tour of their factory and they invited him to see the at the time top secret gs's as they were still in development. he took one look at them and told them "oh i see you guys stole the weak-points from several other companies machines and put them on one platform"
Do you get more revenue with these machines?... What can i expect for revenue if i buy these? How will this machine get me more revenue? Can the revenue give me more/faster return on my investment? Can i put revenue on my cereal? If revenue were a country would i need a passport to get in? If i was less and revenue was more, can we just be friends? Vote for revenue!............... Boy that was annoying
These brunswick videos make me laugh. They take half of AMFs ideas and put them into their machines and call them the best lol. The conveyor in the back instead of their retarded shaker board, the spotting cup like things they have now, the ball door for the return. Brunswick is a joke. at least credit amf for the ideas they used to make this thing
i work at a bowling ally with the elderly 82-70 AMF machines that have a made on date of 64. i have seen some of our machines do 150 to 173 games per day. peticularly a few weeks after christmas. and they are braging about 100. granted some times they have there fits where you have to baby sit them for a wile, figure out what its doin, make a adjustment, then walk away from it. some times the air molicules in the atmosphere have to be just right to make something go wrong. then you will forgetit
oh it's a pain the ass, I stay in the back during leagues and fundraisers just to make sure they run as they should, but theirs always a 180 stop, 90 stop, black-out, or the pins would fall after it sets up another set of pins, granted they are at least 45-50 years old now, but it's really tedious at times. Luckily the place is moving to a new location, new equipment, and more lanes than we have right now! :)
I remember when I was bowling in Kentucky, someone threw a ball while the pinsetter was in operation. The sweep either broke in half or cracked because it didnt look right after impact. I can't remember what kind of pinsetter it was though. They need to make sure the sweep is very solid and durable
you people are amusing. its a proven fact that the brunswick gs-x runs more than 5 times more efficiently than the best amf machines. brunswick is wayyyyyy better than amf
Amazing how Brunswick copied technology from AMF in the 1970s. The early GS had a distributor similar to the AMF 82-70. The GS-X distributor is much different but the table is a copy of the 82-70 from 40 years ago.
yeah Brunswicks new technology is really AMF old technology not only did they steal the table but they stole the bottom end idea too. now using carpets rather then shakerboards. They are too much plastic for my liking.
GSX are more high scoring that amf ones. pins are morelively in the pin deck and you still can bounce pins out of the pit given the right angle. (Brian voss made the 4-6-7 by bouncing out both the 4 and 7 on the GSX -- 2004 US Open)
I still like AMF, from 8230's to 8290xl. If you want look from a technical standpoint, each one of those links in the chains could be considered as a moving part and prone to failure. I believe the first 8230's had chains on them, which AMF eliminated in later models. I will always prefer AMF machines over Brunswick. Anybody remember working on the gearbox on A and A2's? Fun, fun, fun
Is I remember it the X, in GSX was a reference to the millenium. So I say 2000. Center near me built in the end 2001 with GSX, and they was not the first in the region with GSX.
I get a kick out of Brunswick, they make it sound like they invented automatic pinsetting. The truth is AMF invented it and nearly wiped Brunswick out back in the 50's. While the Brunswick A and A-2 are great machines still have em in some of our centers. The 82/30 which we also still have is probably faster than the new GS-X which is really the old German Schmidt machine that Brunswick slapped their electronics on and called it their machine. Brunswick really has not invented to much????
@LordBrunswick Why don't you look at the evolution of the AMF 82 series pinspotters, see what Brunswick "came up with" on their own. All their new improvements have been used on the AMF's for... I don't know, EVER!
Working on the gearbox of an A machine is not alot fun. If you look at an 8230, it's just a table , distributor, and pin wheel. The only reason AMF went to a newer design was extend pin life and increase off-spot range. Either way, I'd still choose an 8230 of 8270.
I worked on AMF 82/70's in the early 80's (My first job)
I always thought that the Brunswick was WAY too complex to accomplish what it does. This GSX looks like a NIGHTMARE to work on. AMF is still the best for reliability and its streamlined design. I actually still have an interest in this stuff !
I bowled at both Brunswick GSX and AMF 8230 setters. the sweep looks the same, just moves back, lol , how come AMF didnt keep that design? just my 2 cents, i prefer that, rather than a sweep or rake, or whatever u call that bar, that seems to drag on the lane, lol
Isn't that weird how the sweep's purpose is to sweep the lane of any pins, but many of them (regardless of the make) aren't built with human error in mind? Sweeps should not only clear the lane of pins between shots but should also be durable,rigid, and strong enough to hold up against any random flying bowling balls down the lane during pin resets.
if you have a quick peek at the patent office, you will find that the brunswick a series machines were an AMF design they sold to brunswick because it was inferior to the design they went with!
These GS pinsetters are not good for recreational/entertainment bowling. A lot of Rec bowlers like fast bowling. For that, AMF pinspotters are much better due to their fast strike cycle, gutter/7pin/10pin cycle. The AMF spotting is also faster.
The league/tournament bowler don't mind those machines though.
Why would league bowlers want slower pinsetting?? There are two centers near me - one has 40 lanes of AMF 8270, the other, 32 lanes of these GSX machines. My God these GSX machines are slow. Having the table come down each time to check for pins is a time waster and the masking units on these GSX machines are so low you can't see the back row of pins. These machines are just so clumsy and can't compare to the speed/accuracy of the older 8270 machines - which GSX clearly tried to copy. AMF!!
I find it funny how Brunswick was talking all that crap about the AMF machines in the beginning but made their GS series look and spot like a 8270, though slower. And the sweep reminds me of the ones on the 8230. What was wrong with the A2's? Should've just updated that system..Funny too, that the Lucky Strike lanes in Hollywood which opened only a few years ago, installed A2's instead of the GSX.
well the thing with the GSX is that most (if not all) of the parts are plastic, and i heard that you have to replace the full machines every 2 years or so. i do like the GSX, great machine, the problem with A-2s is the fact that they were all mechanical, and from what i've heard, much harder to repair. i think brunswick is doing a good job with these, although i believe the AMF 82-70 is the better machine, if you maintain properly
wow i think brunswick has almost managed to copy everything from amf. that monstrosity they have created looks like a absolute pleasure to work on i just wonder how they thought making it bigger than the a2 was a good buisness choice. who knows . i do know a 100 to 200 FPS is crap and i would be looking for a new head mechanic
I believe the pin detection plates were introduced on the 92 serise. I could very well be wrong but I'm almost possitive.
I like the way the GSX has incorprated the three boxs (H.V, Game Setter and Common) into one. theres nothing worse than having to dodge all those boxes on other machines, while taking a walk across the catwalk!
AMF made the first automatic pinsetter in Pearl River New York, so I'm pretty sure AMF is responsible for making bowling what it is. Invented Cosmic Bowling? No, they own the rights to the term "Cosmic Bowling". My FPS ratio is so low, I don't pay attention to it. Damn these lousy AMF pinspotters. Brunswick needs to stop BS'ing people.
I work on these setters every day. 2500 fps is not true. Our machines are running at 100 percent and they stop every 100-200 frames. Other then that they are very easy to work with and fix.
I bowled on the GS92s back in the 1990's, at Fair Lanes Kings Point, Baltimore, Maryland. I was advised that the machines were made in Germany by a company which has become a fully owned subsidiary of Brunswick. I have not seen any GS machines in use here in South Florida. Where do you come from? Was the GS equipped center near your home or in another city? If so, where?
The gs pinsetter has used detector plates for years to create a more stable scorer... a addition made some where around gs 98 (consolidated electronics) was how the 7 and 10 pins are pre loaded to speed up the cycle time as the are the last stations on the distributor.
thats simply because amf is a joke and always will be. They just throw money around everywhere they go and what they'll never realize is that it's pathetic and wrong in nature and doesn't gain them any business or decent reputation.
When I went to college back in the 70's, in South Florida, one of my classmates who was an avid bowler believed in one philosophy, it's Brunswick or it's nothing. From a layman's point of view, I have not had adverse experience bowling in an AMF house. I have seen the works of the AMF 8230, 8270, and 8290XL as well as the Brunswick A2. Never saw a GSX from the business end.
I bowl at a centre with GSX setters, and is is normal for after you get a spare the table comes down empty for a second before it goes back up to get a new set of pins?
I could be wrong, but I believe GSX pinsetters use internal pin detector sensing plates to register score (versus using a camera detection methodology). As a result, the deck needs to "sense" for the pins after both 1st and 2nd ball to keep score.
Brunswick decided to go for the retro look with the GS series and have the deck come down again and feel for pins rather than use modern technology. This was done earlier in the A-2 series but not used extensively.
AMFs new 90xli design (may be renamed) is going to run circles around the GSXs. There's a reason why the design hasn't changed that much since 64
Scooter1185 3 months ago
This is so much better then the stupid amf 8270 in my bowling center. One time in my bowling center the table came down and only set 9 pins! and it is a ten pin bowling center :I
Bubbled86 6 months ago
Stealing AMF technology to make something that appears to be like an AMF 82-70. I didn't think Germans usually stole technology.
stannous 7 months ago
AMF SUCKS!!!
earljames1000 8 months ago 2
bulky , slow , lots of parts reminds me of a2 yep a brunswick pinsetter
pinboyamf 1 year ago
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Bubbled86 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
The bowling center I go to only has AMF pinsetter's :|
Bubbled86 1 year ago
Comment removed
Bubbled86 1 year ago
The ninepin free fall pinsetter from Schmid Switzerland was the prototype for all GS pinsetters. Brunswick took over the leader of string pinsetters Schmid the last century.
misterferien 1 year ago
He basically told to stop where they were and give it another try or they were going to have problems, needless to say they threw him out of the factory. Later once they found out how bad these machines were fired the engineers and invited him back lol. i do like the fact that they got rid of the shacker board though
Redjester22 1 year ago
i work with a guy who's father was around since the beginning of AMF, he taught him everything about them and started working on the 30 series when he was 12. He was telling me that once upon a time Brunswick was giving him a tour of their factory and they invited him to see the at the time top secret gs's as they were still in development. he took one look at them and told them "oh i see you guys stole the weak-points from several other companies machines and put them on one platform"
Redjester22 1 year ago
Do you get more revenue with these machines?... What can i expect for revenue if i buy these? How will this machine get me more revenue? Can the revenue give me more/faster return on my investment? Can i put revenue on my cereal? If revenue were a country would i need a passport to get in? If i was less and revenue was more, can we just be friends? Vote for revenue!............... Boy that was annoying
slb785 1 year ago 2
a2's are the best, gsx's break too easily. pdp's are crap and our a2s used to have them, we ripped them out and put in cameras
ncblu66 1 year ago
These brunswick videos make me laugh. They take half of AMFs ideas and put them into their machines and call them the best lol. The conveyor in the back instead of their retarded shaker board, the spotting cup like things they have now, the ball door for the return. Brunswick is a joke. at least credit amf for the ideas they used to make this thing
slb785 2 years ago
i work at a bowling ally with the elderly 82-70 AMF machines that have a made on date of 64. i have seen some of our machines do 150 to 173 games per day. peticularly a few weeks after christmas. and they are braging about 100. granted some times they have there fits where you have to baby sit them for a wile, figure out what its doin, make a adjustment, then walk away from it. some times the air molicules in the atmosphere have to be just right to make something go wrong. then you will forgetit
olds7cutlass7salon 2 years ago
I still like A-2's better... scoops? Had those on the ol' Bowlmor rubberband duckpin setter.
the turn around pan, mechanical detector - A-2's rock...
Wonder how it handles out of range... chasers hated those - esp. climbing down from behind next to the ball accelerator
ajawam 2 years ago
@ajawam
oh it's a pain the ass, I stay in the back during leagues and fundraisers just to make sure they run as they should, but theirs always a 180 stop, 90 stop, black-out, or the pins would fall after it sets up another set of pins, granted they are at least 45-50 years old now, but it's really tedious at times. Luckily the place is moving to a new location, new equipment, and more lanes than we have right now! :)
Kreed300 1 year ago
I remember when I was bowling in Kentucky, someone threw a ball while the pinsetter was in operation. The sweep either broke in half or cracked because it didnt look right after impact. I can't remember what kind of pinsetter it was though. They need to make sure the sweep is very solid and durable
MarkLGandy 2 years ago
The AMF Pinsetter just the Machine Runs about 14,000 Not including any thing else if you add every thing all together its about 30,000 a Lane
dvddmc 2 years ago
Does anyone know how much this pinsetter costs? Just wondering....
Funnie913 2 years ago
you people are amusing. its a proven fact that the brunswick gs-x runs more than 5 times more efficiently than the best amf machines. brunswick is wayyyyyy better than amf
DethRail 2 years ago 2
@DethRail do you wanna seee a piece of junk searh qubica mag 3 thats a piece of junk
Retrobowler 2 years ago
yeah i know. that mendez shit. its terrible
DethRail 2 years ago
Yeah no kidding about the FPS.
As one guy said in BT, it's all about maintaining the things.
EdmDude 2 years ago
who caares abt the frames per stop
snookeross 2 years ago
@snookeross
Uh, everyone? Both mechanics and customers do not want to deal with constant calls.
BowlerSean 1 year ago
later pinsetters from brunswicks are copying amf
snookeross 2 years ago
only that the pin detector is original
snookeross 2 years ago
now brunswicks pinsetter had many amf features, pls brunswick make sumthing new
snookeross 2 years ago
Amazing how Brunswick copied technology from AMF in the 1970s. The early GS had a distributor similar to the AMF 82-70. The GS-X distributor is much different but the table is a copy of the 82-70 from 40 years ago.
stannous 2 years ago
yeah Brunswicks new technology is really AMF old technology not only did they steal the table but they stole the bottom end idea too. now using carpets rather then shakerboards. They are too much plastic for my liking.
ratt1134 2 years ago 5
i hate cosmic bowling
ultravox557 2 years ago
i prefer amf pinsetters
ultravox557 2 years ago
me too... i would rather have AMF 82-30's then any Brunswick machine.
ratt1134 2 years ago
GSX are more high scoring that amf ones. pins are morelively in the pin deck and you still can bounce pins out of the pit given the right angle. (Brian voss made the 4-6-7 by bouncing out both the 4 and 7 on the GSX -- 2004 US Open)
inspirebowl 2 years ago 2
I still like AMF, from 8230's to 8290xl. If you want look from a technical standpoint, each one of those links in the chains could be considered as a moving part and prone to failure. I believe the first 8230's had chains on them, which AMF eliminated in later models. I will always prefer AMF machines over Brunswick. Anybody remember working on the gearbox on A and A2's? Fun, fun, fun
parkit56 3 years ago
As a bowler, I hate the back wall of the GSX pits. It's a damn curtain, not a wall. May as well forget about lucky 7 10 split tries.
deesyphrr 3 years ago 2
actually there are more 7 - 10s on brunswick because the pins bounce alot in the back end. I have had 6 at my gs 10 centre
JTD508110 2 years ago 5
that crazy arm lookin thing at the beginning just looks like it will only create more problems
doobsmcgee 3 years ago
When was the pinsetter launched?
inspirebowl 3 years ago
1946 by AMF
Wiking300 2 years ago
No, the GSX.
inspirebowl 2 years ago
Ok...GSX. Brunswick purchase the small German company Schmid, and their pinsetter technology in late 1980's.
First model was called, GS-10, then upgrades all the way up to GSX via GS-96 GS-98 and GSX.
As I remember it!
Wiking300 2 years ago
Yeah, so when was the GSX launched. Is it 2002? Im making a guess
inspirebowl 2 years ago
Is I remember it the X, in GSX was a reference to the millenium. So I say 2000. Center near me built in the end 2001 with GSX, and they was not the first in the region with GSX.
Wiking300 2 years ago
and the GS-92 aswell used in the national bowling stadium
JTD508110 2 years ago
I get a kick out of Brunswick, they make it sound like they invented automatic pinsetting. The truth is AMF invented it and nearly wiped Brunswick out back in the 50's. While the Brunswick A and A-2 are great machines still have em in some of our centers. The 82/30 which we also still have is probably faster than the new GS-X which is really the old German Schmidt machine that Brunswick slapped their electronics on and called it their machine. Brunswick really has not invented to much????
BIGGREENLEAF1 3 years ago
This machine is kinda slow and quite noisy and prone to deck jams
eplius 3 years ago
Comment removed
LordBrunswick 3 years ago 7
@LordBrunswick Why don't you look at the evolution of the AMF 82 series pinspotters, see what Brunswick "came up with" on their own. All their new improvements have been used on the AMF's for... I don't know, EVER!
BrianDavid79 1 year ago
Fantastic reading, I had no idea.. I was always just grateful that they worked and had a good time bowling. Fascinating stuff.
Moosehead429 3 years ago
No thanks! they look like death traps just like the A's! I'll take a 90XLi anyday. Copy Cat? why does it look like they took AMFs table design?
spinnins 3 years ago
but other than that they rock 5 star pinsetters
HGJYBRANDON 3 years ago 3
this is awsome but it has one problem it is a time waster and it is 2 slow
HGJYBRANDON 3 years ago
all are good machines....its all in the mechanic/staff
82/30 /70 are easier to get running good...but frames per stop cap is a little lower
This video is a little bias though. you can get an a-2 running 1500-2000 FPS and 82/30 /70 fairly close as well
a & a-2 take a little more effort into running good...but has a higher cap in frames per stop
GSX HAS to be clean to run good. Keep an eye on a few key items and it will run 3000 FPS easily
SDcrooZer 3 years ago
The brunswick A-2 and AMF 8270 is faster than Brunswick GSX
slrmclaren022 3 years ago
Working on the gearbox of an A machine is not alot fun. If you look at an 8230, it's just a table , distributor, and pin wheel. The only reason AMF went to a newer design was extend pin life and increase off-spot range. Either way, I'd still choose an 8230 of 8270.
parkit66 3 years ago
YIKES !!!
I worked on AMF 82/70's in the early 80's (My first job)
I always thought that the Brunswick was WAY too complex to accomplish what it does. This GSX looks like a NIGHTMARE to work on. AMF is still the best for reliability and its streamlined design. I actually still have an interest in this stuff !
vittoriostoraro 3 years ago
I bowled at both Brunswick GSX and AMF 8230 setters. the sweep looks the same, just moves back, lol , how come AMF didnt keep that design? just my 2 cents, i prefer that, rather than a sweep or rake, or whatever u call that bar, that seems to drag on the lane, lol
EdmDude 3 years ago
The 8230 sweeps are difficult to fix when someone throws a ball at it and busts it.
The 8270 and A/A2 rake/sweep don't drag on the lane... if it does then the mechanic has a problem to fix...
uberbcs 3 years ago
Isn't that weird how the sweep's purpose is to sweep the lane of any pins, but many of them (regardless of the make) aren't built with human error in mind? Sweeps should not only clear the lane of pins between shots but should also be durable,rigid, and strong enough to hold up against any random flying bowling balls down the lane during pin resets.
ReventonF22 2 years ago
Comment removed
ReventonF22 2 years ago
if you have a quick peek at the patent office, you will find that the brunswick a series machines were an AMF design they sold to brunswick because it was inferior to the design they went with!
Chromatix 3 years ago
These GS pinsetters are not good for recreational/entertainment bowling. A lot of Rec bowlers like fast bowling. For that, AMF pinspotters are much better due to their fast strike cycle, gutter/7pin/10pin cycle. The AMF spotting is also faster.
The league/tournament bowler don't mind those machines though.
uberbcs 3 years ago
Why would league bowlers want slower pinsetting?? There are two centers near me - one has 40 lanes of AMF 8270, the other, 32 lanes of these GSX machines. My God these GSX machines are slow. Having the table come down each time to check for pins is a time waster and the masking units on these GSX machines are so low you can't see the back row of pins. These machines are just so clumsy and can't compare to the speed/accuracy of the older 8270 machines - which GSX clearly tried to copy. AMF!!
yruwatchingnow 3 years ago
I find it funny how Brunswick was talking all that crap about the AMF machines in the beginning but made their GS series look and spot like a 8270, though slower. And the sweep reminds me of the ones on the 8230. What was wrong with the A2's? Should've just updated that system..Funny too, that the Lucky Strike lanes in Hollywood which opened only a few years ago, installed A2's instead of the GSX.
mistaphill 4 years ago
well the thing with the GSX is that most (if not all) of the parts are plastic, and i heard that you have to replace the full machines every 2 years or so. i do like the GSX, great machine, the problem with A-2s is the fact that they were all mechanical, and from what i've heard, much harder to repair. i think brunswick is doing a good job with these, although i believe the AMF 82-70 is the better machine, if you maintain properly
jimmabean 3 years ago
wow i think brunswick has almost managed to copy everything from amf. that monstrosity they have created looks like a absolute pleasure to work on i just wonder how they thought making it bigger than the a2 was a good buisness choice. who knows . i do know a 100 to 200 FPS is crap and i would be looking for a new head mechanic
funkyfred231 4 years ago
Great video. This is the kind of material consumers do not get a chance to see on regular tv.
BDNADLER 4 years ago
Pin detection plates? A-2 had them. I think the A-2 was a better machine, and I am going to install a pair in my home.
chargermopar 4 years ago
how much does it cost to have a lane in your home?
andyl194 4 years ago
I believe the pin detection plates were introduced on the 92 serise. I could very well be wrong but I'm almost possitive.
I like the way the GSX has incorprated the three boxs (H.V, Game Setter and Common) into one. theres nothing worse than having to dodge all those boxes on other machines, while taking a walk across the catwalk!
GSX- Double loading pincups?
WadeDarrem 4 years ago
AMF made the first automatic pinsetter in Pearl River New York, so I'm pretty sure AMF is responsible for making bowling what it is. Invented Cosmic Bowling? No, they own the rights to the term "Cosmic Bowling". My FPS ratio is so low, I don't pay attention to it. Damn these lousy AMF pinspotters. Brunswick needs to stop BS'ing people.
exactlyvague 4 years ago
I think they forgot to mention.... IT MAKES YOU MORE MONEY!! lol
KIFulgore 4 years ago
I work on these setters every day. 2500 fps is not true. Our machines are running at 100 percent and they stop every 100-200 frames. Other then that they are very easy to work with and fix.
Fabian4612 4 years ago
Thats what I look for in bowling...a bigger chance of skin cancer :)
Zoomer30 4 years ago
how
HGJYBRANDON 3 years ago
I've only bowled on GS-X's once (twice tomorrow) and I am really satisfied with them. Amazing pinsetters!
Bowler4Ever 4 years ago
I bowled on the GS92s back in the 1990's, at Fair Lanes Kings Point, Baltimore, Maryland. I was advised that the machines were made in Germany by a company which has become a fully owned subsidiary of Brunswick. I have not seen any GS machines in use here in South Florida. Where do you come from? Was the GS equipped center near your home or in another city? If so, where?
BDNADLER, Coral Springs, FL
BDNADLER 4 years ago
The gs pinsetter has used detector plates for years to create a more stable scorer... a addition made some where around gs 98 (consolidated electronics) was how the 7 and 10 pins are pre loaded to speed up the cycle time as the are the last stations on the distributor.
WackoJimMcJacko 4 years ago
thats simply because amf is a joke and always will be. They just throw money around everywhere they go and what they'll never realize is that it's pathetic and wrong in nature and doesn't gain them any business or decent reputation.
desolatewinter 4 years ago 3
When I went to college back in the 70's, in South Florida, one of my classmates who was an avid bowler believed in one philosophy, it's Brunswick or it's nothing. From a layman's point of view, I have not had adverse experience bowling in an AMF house. I have seen the works of the AMF 8230, 8270, and 8290XL as well as the Brunswick A2. Never saw a GSX from the business end.
BDNADLER 4 years ago
I bowl at a centre with GSX setters, and is is normal for after you get a spare the table comes down empty for a second before it goes back up to get a new set of pins?
EdmDude 4 years ago
I could be wrong, but I believe GSX pinsetters use internal pin detector sensing plates to register score (versus using a camera detection methodology). As a result, the deck needs to "sense" for the pins after both 1st and 2nd ball to keep score.
cmp128 4 years ago
Your observation is very correct!
Wiking300 2 years ago
Brunswick decided to go for the retro look with the GS series and have the deck come down again and feel for pins rather than use modern technology. This was done earlier in the A-2 series but not used extensively.
stannous 2 years ago