The guy in the elevator said, "Don't take this the wrong way," So he wasn't propositioning her. When she declined, he understood and didn't press the issue. But from your perspective he's still a creep, a douchebag, and every perverted anaolgy you can think of? And you you maintain the myth that all men are rapists. Tens of thousands of innocent black men used to be lynched because of people like Rebecca Watson's neurosis And countless white and BK men are falsely accused by people like her.
It really has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with sexism. Ms. Watson is a sexist, a misandrist. She is explicitly accusing any man that politely expresses interest in a woman of being a rapist. How creepy is that?
There sure is an awful lot of rape talk here. Here this poor shmuck has the misfortune to be attracted to a squeaky, twitchy pile of insecurity, and is portrayed as a would-be rapist for his trouble. This poor bastard's confidence is probably shattered for life. Rather than focus on her own tedious discomfort, RW should have tried to view things from a wider perspective than her own skin. It takes courage to face possible rejection...more for this guy now than ever.
Spot on! Martial arts are the best method to acheiving a sense of empowerment for women, or anyone. On the whole, I don't have much time for feminists, precisely because the likes of Rebecca Watson are very typical of them.
What sort of feminist is cowed by a well intentioned, if socially awkward, guy asking her out? What's that? Most of them...?
*Sniff*. Well that's unimpressive.
On a side note, wanna go out for coffee? I promise I'm not Rapey Superman. ;)
You say a woman should have a knife or gun to "defend" aginst a man making pass at them at an uncomfortable situation. This is to feel empowered enough to handle the moment and not freak out like mrs watson. I wonder what would happen if you said a man should carry a gun to "defend" himself around homosexuals. Or if you said one should carry a gun to "defend" against blacks. You probably wouldn't, but its ok to say "get a broken beer bottle" to shiv a man, ya know cause you cant trust them men
I think you fail to understand something. By applying intentions of rape to men who don't rape has a long history of resulting in the persecution of innocent men. God forbid if the man had been black, or Latino. And its well known how a false accusation will ruin an innocent man's life. I remember when in university it was assumed because I'm black I had to be the person who stole a wallet, because it was assumed to be in my nature. When the wallet was found, no even apologized.
You make some pretty good points. But you've herd the message that women should fight back against all the injustice in the world towards women. Well it appears that this is what Rebecca was trying to do but against a non- injust incident. I don't take time out of my schedule to go after an issue unless I feel it's really worth it. Someone asking to have coffee who does take no for an answer is still a threat even after they've moved on?
My Sri Lankan girlfriend was seeing her ex behind my back. A man who put her in the emergency room after beating her once, and had raped her on a few of occasions before that inncendent. The strange thing is that she has this kind of paranoid delusional fear of strange men who approach her and she doesn't see the real dangerous situation she puts herself in by trying to remain friends with the ex. That's the problem with most paranoia: it overlooks the real issues in favor of the imagined.
Yes, what you just said about women first reacting, then recalling and contemplating the situation about what happenes in those situations in such a way is do to Fear. It is understandable yet it throws into question other sacrad cow ideologies held by the populous like men and women being equal (not under the law mind you,lol). learn how to defend yourself, physically, mentally, ect and this reactions wont happen. it feels like Fems are trying to terraform the planet into a place...part 1
I found this very interesting. As a 6'+ male I don't consider any confrontation with one person a problem, but if I was an average female (5' 3") I think my perspective would be starkly different - which is why I can see both side of this argument. I cannot have empathy with what Rebecca faced, so I really cannot judge.
I think this was more about Rebecca's insecurity than anything this guy did wrong.
If her worst problem is that occasionally a guy is attracted to her, I'm not going to shed any tears for her. Dawkins was right, tons of people would love to have to deal with people asking them out all the time. Frankly, I doubt the guy would have bothered if he had only been aware of her attitude about the situation.
Real women's liberation will come when women have SEXUAL liberation and are no longer afraid to express their sexual desires openly, the way men do. We are sexual beings - men, women, genderqueer - identified alike. We are ALL sex objects in the sense that we have the potential to be the object of someone's sexual desire. Our sexuality is something to be celebrated, not feared. It would be nice is Rebecca spread a message of freedom, not fear.
To listen to Rebecca's response to these videos and emails, please watch her response at the beginning of her talk for CFI
Rebecca Watson: The Religious Right vs. Every Woman on Earth | CFI This appears to be a cogent argument for the point that she may have been originally trying to make.
@Playzon I've watched it and I couldn't see any correlation between what she said there and what happened in the elevator. Are you talking about how her podcast covers controversial subjects and she gets crazy responses from some atheists?
@urantivirus Sorry, this wasn't a terribly clear video to link to. The section I was referring to starts at 12:25. I think I may have confused it for other postings. Thanks for the catch.
"shatter the atheist community"? eh? "in an elevator with a guy you dont know... you'd be TERRIFIED"? LOLOL its irritating men-hating women like this that really get on my fucking ass - if you feel afraid of getting in an elevator at 4:00am with people you dont know... then, DONT GET IN ELEVATORS AT 4:00AM WITH PEOPLE YOU DONT FUCKING KNOW... and what gives you the right to NOT BE OFFENDED?... why are there so many of these men-hating feminist douche-cunts? Seriously? get over yourselves lol.
The "solution" offered here is retarded. I am a martial artist, but still i know how easy is to be overpowered in bad situation. Situations that are rare, tough, and thats the point. The solution is not to be all walking lethal weapons, is to teach the feminazi out there that man and rapist are not synonymous, and that when a man hit on you he does not see you only as a hole. If he is polite, just say yes/no thanks according to your interest, and thats it. R.watson just come out as a bitch, imho
How did this get to be so big? Watson was propositioned in an elevator, and all she had to say was "no, thank you" or "piss off". Why is this seen as such a big issue?
I agree with your most substantive point: empowerment is preferable to victimization. Most of this has been making a lot out of a little, but the issue has served as a wedge for disparate views in the community. The key to feeling safe is the confidence that you can defend yourself.
It's too bad that you feel generically threatened like that. The chances of some random dude jumping out of the bushes and raping you are extremely slim. When you fear violence you become its victim before it happens.
@uknichu - I believe she means that rapists are reported as being very powerful, and therefore seem superhuman. The ones who make it into the movies and onto the news are the real, literal psychopaths and sociopaths, real outliers from the norm of humanity. When people are more educated (as I was in self defense class) that most people are raped by someone they know, and that one CAN fight a rapist off and/or survive an attack, the feeling that we [women] are powerless fades.
@sexymodels5 : I like that phrase! I agree with Dissenteens, it seems that most women don't realize that a man is just a man, and you've got to be *much* weaker/smaller than your aggressor to have no chance at all from the start. At least that's what I thought when I felt somehow physically threatened - it could be delusional, but sometimes fear is as well.
All she said was.she felt uncomfortable. As if a.man has.never felt unconfotable with the reverced situation. We just havent heard of it because no one cares. And no one should care about this just as.richard dawkins was trying to point out..
Her feelings are pretty much irrelevant. The poor guy asked in an extremely polite way and she said no and he forgot all about it by the time he got to his doorway I am sure.
I feel sorry for HIM in all of this. He made a polite respectful and even flattering request and she said no and she then did things that could have made him an object of derision, especially with the more frightening and rabid of feminists out there, should his identity be revealed.
Further on the self defense point...if you are a woman of average size or smaller, you are still going to be vulnerable in situations like being alone on an elevator at 3 in the morning. And that is always going to be a sticking point in trying to build a gender-equal society! And shame on some of these asshole guys here and similar video threads, who spend the rest of their time whining because of the gender imbalance of freethought groups. No wonder they don't show up!
I agree with your basic point that most women can help themselves and develop a greater sense of self-confidence (which actually helps deter the likelihood of attack) by learning a little self defense. But, unless you live in Alabama or something, you can't go running around with gun.
Forget about knives and guns, go to a certified martial arts class and spend time practicing some basic skills that can be tailored to your abilities and disadvantages.
I always find it amazing when I meet extremely successful women. They don't hate men, and their not afraid of them. My guess is that they have tackled so much because that's what a mans world IS. A mans world is a constant battleground. You are getting wounded on a regular basis, and the only way to deal with it is to fight back! Women are not weak, it amazes me when women choose to be weak instead to tackling the challenges in the world around them and as a result becoming strong.
Women have been and still are the most privileged group of people that have ever existed, their failure to attain what men have made is from none other than their privilege to money from males, their exemption from responsibility, and their victim complex. Women have been the most protected and entitled people. Just the idea that men would care if a woman was a success is a ridiculous idea, the idea that we hate you because we want to have sex with you is total nonsense.
If women are so afraid of going out, they should just not go out. Rather than villainize all "strange" men and put them in the category of potential rapists, stay home or make sure you walk 2 paces behind your husband everywhere you go.
How delusional women are now a days. Go live in Rwanda for 2 weeks and you will have a better appreciation for men in your countries, you ungrateful, spoiled western bitches.
i have been asked out by a few girls in my past, with whom i had no sexual interest at all. and it made me really uncomfortable. the way i was treated by these women was chauvinistic and degrading and aggresive. great logic huh?
I agree and disagree. I would not expect a man to be thrilled if I followed him to an elevator and asked him to come back to my room, nor would I expect a bunch of the women to go around getting paranoid about rise of Chauvinist Nazis... the whole thing is silly. Stand in the middle and look both ways. It's better to talk to people in a group and don't go to atheist conventions if you're a woman.
Men have soft spots. People would tend to think 'men ... soft spots ... oh she means the crown jewels'. No - I mean the eyes. Seriously, eye injury means they can't chase you coz they can't see where they're going ... plus - it's an easy injury to pick out when they get to the hospital. Scratch marks on the face aren't easily missed.
Frankly I think the whole 'elevatorgate' thing is a storm in a teacup. Dawkins response nailed it.
(cont...) However there is one particular thing I would like internet commentators to think on and address - and that is the prevalence of use of the word 'rape' to describe pwnage. It trivialises rape and frankly it's disturbing to me that so many internet (including a good number of the mmorpg community I'm in) people use the word so readily.
ps - I agree with Nilguiri - guns are unnecessary and, if anything, escalate fear and violence. You can still easily defend yourself without having a gun.
There's a good reason why people are reacting to Watson's account of the tale, because she uses what may (or may not) be a pickup line in an elevator as an example of sexual objectification and being sexualized in a way that makes her uncomfortable. "Sexual objectification" is a relic from second wave feminism, and there's no clear evidence she was being sexualized.
She's not being mocked for the "Schrödinger’s Rapist" argument you present in your video.
Ju-jitsu is fair enough. But carrying weapons will usually result in them being used against you.
Plus, the mind boggles. The skepchick was clearly scared being alone in a confined space with this guy - who knows what she would have even considered doing if she was carrying a knife or a gun? One unintentional twitch of a finger and the guy could be dead (the penalty for that is life in prison in Ireland). Scared people do scary things.
Men do not enjoy having to approach women. In fact, they hate it. But society leave us no option. We get shot down again and again and again. But we don't complain. That is our lot. Approaching a woman that has been drinking until 3 or 4 in the morning, politely, is no big deal. Especially a woman that puts nudie calendars on her web site and projects the image of a confident, liberated feminist. To make matters worse she started the 'war' by calling for a Dawkins boycott.
@rcguy69 But as usual she is the victim somehow and the men are oppressing her. She overreacted, honestly if women have so much difficultly dealing with the fact that men asking them them out it in away that she doesn't like say no and walk away. Don't ask go on the internet and bitch about how men oppress women by making them feel uncomfortable. I think all these women clearly have some sort of aspergers syndrome and are blaming men for it.
@rcguy69 "Leave us no option"? WTF?! There's the obvious option of not fucking trying to have sex with strangers. Those who do are creeps. And it is a big deal. It should be a fucking sex crime to have sex with strangers.
@Niwram I've seen you on the other videos and it makes me wonder what you mean by strangers. Two people can have consenting sex while also being strangers to one another. There's nothing wrong with it as long as both are consenting.
@Andjealous if that poster isn't a troll, i've seen it all now. sex with strangers should be considered a sex crime? sounds to me like someone needs to get laid and is angry about it.
@Niwram "And it is a big deal. It should be a fucking sex crime to have sex with strangers." If you're not a troll, this is one of the stupidest comments i've read regarding all this. should both consenting adults who don't know each other before having sex be arrested and tried? sexually frustrated and angry much?
@Niwram How is it wrong to have sex with strangers, much less, who are you to suggest that his intention was to seduce this woman? It is a vague issue with vague circumstances that the majority has taken to these extremes only by way of a single woman's testimony of the situation. I have to second Richard's opinion in this case and the controversy is not worth the time, because a.) it's absurd and b.) there exists not enough information to fully judge this ...mundane event.
learn to shoot a gun? Jesus fucking Christ! seriously?
Ah right, you live in the USA where this deadly weapon thing is seen as reasonable behaviour.
You lot are out of control! I'm glad I live in a relatively civilized country where only hardened criminals and the police have weapons.
Just as well the elevator incident didn't happen in the USA or Rebecca would have probably blown the "would-be rapist's" nuts off with a fecking Colt 45.
Land of the free, home of the brave? haha! yeah,right.
@Nilguiri A fire arm is a very useful tool for when someone doesn't take no for an answer and insists on stealing or committing a violent act. Must be great when only the police and hardened criminals have the means to fuck over citizens. If we all married police officers problem solved eh? I'm sure the police are right there whenever someone is about to be mugged, raped, murdered. The problem I have with some gun owners is that most don't know about gun safety and the use of minimal force.
Womens lib has made women more "promiscuous", or sexually free -- choose your own wording. Now, I think the problem lies in the fact that women have a deep issue with this mandate from feminism -- it cheapens them. And in order to contend with that conflict, they have to project on every man being a "potential rapist". This puts the blame outside of her ideology.
did you say "3am pretty much Rape hour"?? Wow, we live in a false rape culture, not a rape culture, men are victims of rape far more than women are. She was not afraid, her sad little ego and pride was offended because she had 'just been talking about... bla bla bla' wasn't this man hanging off of every word she had said?? She simply cannot keep her sexist bigoted beliefs out of the subject of atheism. Pathetic.
I'm not sure why Dawkins would way in on this. It seems beneath him.
Watson's comments about being sexualized are kind of amusing. If she were to ask someone she fancied for conversation and coffee, would she be "sexualizing" them?
Other related factors can be about attitude, style of communication, and choices in how to go about things, since rapists tend to go for the easier targets. Thus, even w/o getting kung fooed up or packing heat, a woman can ask for an escort to her room, devise ways of talking with creepy characters which help them realize not to even ask, or "accidentally" drop a (fake) police badge/ID on the floor, etc.
"women are in so much danger" My ass. So much for bold feminism, destroying gender roles. ** Also, I get nervous when a black man gets on the elevator with me when Im alone. I mean after all, I have a legitimate reason to be afraid of black men.....dont I? Of course not, that would be prejudiced at best, racist at worst. This elevator shit discussion is the same crap - youre either a fuckin sexist or an idiot....and this feminism shit is supposed to represent empowered women, not sexists
WOW! you have the audacity to say that ALL women live in fear of men. What arrogance. If you as a woman fear all men are going to harm you, I can only think of one word 'broken.'
Your cute little dig about "70 cents to the dollar" was not lost upon me, but I can't help wondering why you, an atheist and skeptic, would be repeating old, discredited feminist canards. Aren't we atheists and skeptics known for being iconoclastic freethinkers and troublemakers who challenge establishment dogmas? ;)
The thing that saddens me is that the complains aroused by the incident are highly nuanced and focus on specific issues yet Rebecca supporters (for this topic at least) respond to them all with the same replies as if they aren't even reading the contents of the complains.
And *that* is my [meta-]issue with Rebecca's elevator gate.
I do not sympathize with Rebecca. The chances of a women being raped is infinitesimally small, on the order of 0.00000001%. In a typical day you have a far better chance of being killed in a car accident than being raped. Of course, normal well adjusted humans don't hold irrational fears of cars or rape.
I sincerely hope she seeks psychiatric help so that she can co-exist in the world without fear, because it can be so debilitating.
I think Dawkins was bound to say something about her at some stage. They are completely different types of people. I imagine she gets on his nerves. She certainly gets on mine. I'm disappointed with the amount of women who have completely taken her side.
that jujitsu empowerment thing....ha ha you keep that false sense of security. that shit the gracies indoctrinated the world with is being shown to the world as foolishness
@anothergazman It seems you have never carried a gun before. To understand where I am coming from better, I suggest you try it some time. This will help you to understand the concerns and states of mind that go along with being responsible for your own security. Given that you seem to maintain situational awareness and a level head already, carrying for a bit should not be a big deal for you.
@AndreisEntaro I can't carry a gun, they are banned here except in certain situations (hunting rifles and shotguns) and I really don't want people in this country to have the right to either. Gun crime here is pretty rare, so much so that any gun crime makes the news and is not normal.
I think you missed the point of Watson's vid. It wasn't that the guy threatened her or that she felt threatened. It was the guy was "mysogynist" because he presumed that she may want to have sex with him. Like many women, Watson feels men "should just know" when an advance is appropriate. This is a form of sexism that expects men to be mind readers.
@AndreisEntaro A gun? bad idea. A good healthy understanding of the actual likelihood of being attacked (basic risk assessment) and some common sense (ie: dont go down dark alley ways) combined with some self defense classes should be sufficient for the most part. The last thing you need is a scared person pulling a gun on every potential threat.
@anothergazman The end of your comment assumes so much it becomes meaningless or even derogatory to females. Who says the average female would be in such a state of mind? Additionally, the ability to defend oneself should the threat actually manifest tends to alter the mind from a state of panic to a state of planning. I.E.-"what can I do if something happens" rather than "what is this person going to do to me". Though I will give you that risk assessment and situation awareness are critical.
@AndreisEntaro I never said the "average female" would be, i said a SCARED PERSON (rapes and muggings don't just happen to women), but the idea that arming people against a relatively rare crime is the answer is frankly dumb (ever hear of escalation?). Are you saying no one would overreact and wrongly pull a gun on a percieved threat? There are better and safer ways of avoiding and dealing with such situations than guns.
@anothergazman Hard to say actually. If I accept the state of mind you suggest as a starting point, your argument makes a bit of sense. I was more concerned with the context application, your first comment seemed to imply that the person in question might have overreacted and there is nothing to show that would be the case.
That said, there is also no information that I am aware of which suggests people would just pull guns out because they are scared.
@AndreisEntaro It's hard to say how anyone would react, and thats really my point! It is pretty well known that where people have more guns more people get shot, if a mugger wants to rob someone who they think is armed they will often just shoot then rob them in order to reduce the risk to themselves. This happened in south africa with car jackings after drivers were given permission to carry concealed guns, the car jackers would just walk up behind them and shoot through the window.
@anothergazman Fortunately, we are not talking about South Africa. For civilized nations, criminals are not so ready to up robbery to murder and they tend to target those who are clearly unarmed and unaware. Crime statistics are difficult to use due to differences in classification and reporting, however, I do know that within the US there is a trend showing a increase in violent crime in places where guns are banned. (IE- places where the citizens are unarmed for sure)
@AndreisEntaro Are you saying that south africans aren't civilised? Now who's being derogatory? In my country where firearms are mostly banned gun crime is the exception. You're right about comparisons though it is very tricky. It doesn't take much though to realise that if everyone can carry a gun then every person with anger management issues or a drug problem or criminal intent can also carry one without being challenged till its too late, want to bet who'd be the first to pull a gun?
@anothergazman Obviously the criminal element in South Africa is less civilized and that will follow from the government's inability to reliably break up criminal organizations. So yes, I am implying that a nation in which carjackers can get away with just shooting their victims as a matter of course may be less civilized. People with criminal intent tend to carry guns(or weapons) anyway, disregard for the law is part of being a criminal. They also tend to conceal them to avoid being challenged.
@AndreisEntaro I don't see how the SA street criminals are in your mind less civilised than say a drug addict robbing someone for money for their next fix but hey. I feel we're probably getting away from the videos issues now though so i think I'll call it a night for now.
@anothergazman I give you that it is hard to say how people will react only with the caveat that overreaction and subsequent shooting out of fear has not been shown to be the case for any measurable percentage of the population, at least not to my knowledge. If you have something that supports your position on that, I'd like to read it.
I don't think the problem is her being afraid. That's fine and perfectly normal at 4 Am in a strange country.
Where the problem is, and where she is absolutely 100% wrong, is with her blogging about it after it was a non issue and there was no threat to her. She made the big deal out of being asked out. Buddy in the elevator was guilty of bad timing perhaps.
Dawkins was right. There are real issues in the world to give time to this non issue.
I like a lot of what you have to say and am glad to find you! Please keep making vids. I'm grateful to hear your run-down of what's been going on. I'm not attached to the grapevine, so I didn't know, even though I posted her original talk.
Nice vid. I concur your advice for women to learn self-defense mechanisms. Coming to actual point, Dawkins is not known for his tact. He is direct, blunt and ridicules theist beliefs. He employed the same approach to a woman's belief and now he is called misogynist. All are equal is out of the window. He can blast theist's beliefs but not a women's beliefs the same way. Who is actually right is irrelevant here. Women wanting equality should be ready to take verbal ridicule and criticisms.
@MizManagement Thanks! That's the irony of the whole incident. Supposedly Rebecca has Dawkin's blunt public discourse against theists as her cell phone ring and wanted him saying "Idiotic retard" as her new cell phone ring. All that changed when she became the object of the ridicule.
@loveofphysics Of course not! The main problem is making sure men know that many of us live under threat of attack, and that they should take that into account when engaging with us. But empowerment will help remove that initial fear.
Don't you think its disrespectful and threatening to consider all men rapists. Do you think its okay to make male heterosexuality a crime? That any proposition to a woman is an act of attempted rape and intimidation, that looking at a woman is sexual harassment. Should it be illegal to be a man?
@BeaveHolio So you think a request that men refrain from being disrespectful towards women is equivalent to a calling men rapists? There is no point in talking to you.
What would a women be threatened of if not rape. I don't exactly see it as disrespect either, one can't know what's disrespectful to every person they talk to. There is no such thing as something being offensive there is only such a thing as being offended. However skep chick decided to blankly tell every that what made her uncomfortable applies to all women and to all men. He also decided to label anyone who disagreed with her as a misogynist.
@BeaveHolio It it ridiculous to change this question from "should Elevator Guy have treated Watson the way he did in the elevator?" to "Should Watson ever voice the thought that the Atheist Community is sexist?", because the fact that the latter question is raised by the majority of Atheists, demonstrates that the Atheist community is much more concerned by a man being falsely accused of sexism, than a woman being the victim of sexism, thus proving the Atheist Community is sexist.
So it is sexist to be skeptical of a woman's claim that she was a victim of sexism. So in your virtue we are all guilty before we are innocent if we are men but completely objective and truthful when we are women, seems to me that you are the sexist. Not only that but this contempt for male heterosexuality is nothing but sexist, out right call this man a pervert and that he objectified her is sexist. The entire idea of objectification is an attack on heterosexuality.
@BeaveHolio So you think that male heterosexuals are only capable of expressing or satisfying their sexuality is by demeaning and objectifying women? You think far too little of males.
Explain how anyone is demeaned or objectified. Define objectification and I will tell you why you are wrong. Having sex or asking for sex is in no way demeaning or an act of objectification.
@BeaveHolio Rebecca felt demeaned and objectified...so...what do you want to do? Debate about whether or not we should validate her feelings about an event that happened to her? This debate is really tiring...
Feeling are not an objective measure of anything I can feel I was violated and wronged but that doesn't make it so. I can believe that I am a victim when I am not.
I agree that Rebecca felt threatened and we definitely want to reduce this felling, but I don't think what this guy did deserves this. It is possible that another woman in her shoes would have just said. No thanks and thought nothing else. I think sensitivity has a lot to play in this issue. Personally i want to defend the right of a man to ask a woman in an elevator "would you like to get a coffee back at my place" at 4 in the morning. Women should blow him off and be done with it.
that girl is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dumb
The other things is that one night stands and short term romances do happen a lot in hotels when they are on holiday or conference. Being hit on in an elevator at 4 am is actually expected on those places. People are on a holiday and have a great time. Flirting is one way to have a great time and for most women this is giving a great feeling after the initial surprise moves away and realize that they are still hot.
It is perfectly understandable that a woman would feel nervous when being approached by an unknown man. The fact of the matter is, however, that there is no way to have sex with out putting yourself in a vulnerable situation. Unless you're ready to go to jail for disturbing public order you will eventually have to withdraw to a remote location for the act, thus making yourself vulnerable. Blaming men for this is meaningless, as there is no way we can make sex a perfectly secure endeavour.
Loved your comments. I have been amazed at the ridiculous upset by many men at her comments about her feelings. I would have felt the same way and how clueless was that guy? Where is the offense by these same men at the rape threat email she got?
She has over-reacted, but then so did others. Dawkins... why did he wade into the discussion in the first place dismissing a young woman's feelings. Face palm! Yet... her vendetta against him is stupid.
"Gets propositioned and doesn't return the favor" ~ DissenteensInRevolt, what do you mean by 'propositioned'? If you're suggesting he was proposing a request for sexual relations you're making an assumption.
You know what's sad about this situation. Everyone is calling Richard privileged heterosexual white male. Without ever considering reading his work. In 2006 Dawkins wrote a heartfelt letter to his fans about how he in fact had been sexually molested as a child. So before people attack him for not having a perspective read his shit people. Being sexually molested as a child is no laughing matter. And yet Rebecca Watson said "no" and EG said okay.
He broke elevator ettiquette. Unless they were in the middle of a on going conversation it seems like an innappropriate place to proposition another person.
@TheLummer66 Opportunities aren't always had in the most appropriate places. Perhaps this guy didn't have a prior opportunity and knew here was his last one. He politely asked her for coffee and a conversation, she declined, he accepted her refusal, later on she made it out to be evil male sexuality once again rearing it's head, the terrible desire of men to want sex with women, "Oh noes".
@kitsunegames There is a lot anxiety people feel in elevators. Without commenting on this specifics of this instance, someone should have the good sense not to propostion in an elevator. There is good reason why this is coming back to bite him in the ass. A rational person would do it an open forum where the person doesn't feel trapped (whatever the outcome)
@TheLummer66 A rational person would realize that opportunities aren't always available in appropriate places, and wouldn't make a stink about it. So far as I know this was the last night in a hotel, in a foreign country, that these two had the chance to speak to each other. There was no opportunity to have such a discussion in an open forum, and there would be none, as both would likely be taking different modes of transportation to different locations at different times. Never to meet again.
@kitsunegames So how did that work out for him. I get the idea of rolling the dice, elevators are completely verboten to do this. It's a no win situation and caused more hot air than it was worth. If he expected a positive result he can't be all that rational.
The guy in the elevator said, "Don't take this the wrong way," So he wasn't propositioning her. When she declined, he understood and didn't press the issue. But from your perspective he's still a creep, a douchebag, and every perverted anaolgy you can think of? And you you maintain the myth that all men are rapists. Tens of thousands of innocent black men used to be lynched because of people like Rebecca Watson's neurosis And countless white and BK men are falsely accused by people like her.
blackburn9 8 hours ago
It really has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with sexism. Ms. Watson is a sexist, a misandrist. She is explicitly accusing any man that politely expresses interest in a woman of being a rapist. How creepy is that?
Kludge420 2 weeks ago
There sure is an awful lot of rape talk here. Here this poor shmuck has the misfortune to be attracted to a squeaky, twitchy pile of insecurity, and is portrayed as a would-be rapist for his trouble. This poor bastard's confidence is probably shattered for life. Rather than focus on her own tedious discomfort, RW should have tried to view things from a wider perspective than her own skin. It takes courage to face possible rejection...more for this guy now than ever.
Snakepliskinist 3 weeks ago
Lesson from this video: 3'AM = rape hour ... does it get more ridiculous?
sooperfukker 3 weeks ago
Is it too late to say fuck Rebecca Watson? I hope not. Because it should never be too late for that in a sane world.
jjdecani 1 month ago
I love women who say clusterfuck.
MrBastilleDay 1 month ago
I believe in Shiva Vishnu and Brahma and Guru Nanak Dev Ji for sure
OldaurGold 1 month ago
Spot on! Martial arts are the best method to acheiving a sense of empowerment for women, or anyone. On the whole, I don't have much time for feminists, precisely because the likes of Rebecca Watson are very typical of them.
What sort of feminist is cowed by a well intentioned, if socially awkward, guy asking her out? What's that? Most of them...?
*Sniff*. Well that's unimpressive.
On a side note, wanna go out for coffee? I promise I'm not Rapey Superman. ;)
threewiseman1 1 month ago
You say a woman should have a knife or gun to "defend" aginst a man making pass at them at an uncomfortable situation. This is to feel empowered enough to handle the moment and not freak out like mrs watson. I wonder what would happen if you said a man should carry a gun to "defend" himself around homosexuals. Or if you said one should carry a gun to "defend" against blacks. You probably wouldn't, but its ok to say "get a broken beer bottle" to shiv a man, ya know cause you cant trust them men
jimback27 1 month ago
RAPY SUPERHUMANS, RUN!!!!
bkr0127 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
3:37 Dude, whaaaaaaaat? Mutant Brotherhood... not X-Men!
I'm a guy and I'm offended!!
;)
twooffour 1 month ago
your a head case ...what was that knives, broken bottles guns ? just for being male !
kevrs2 2 months ago
I think you fail to understand something. By applying intentions of rape to men who don't rape has a long history of resulting in the persecution of innocent men. God forbid if the man had been black, or Latino. And its well known how a false accusation will ruin an innocent man's life. I remember when in university it was assumed because I'm black I had to be the person who stole a wallet, because it was assumed to be in my nature. When the wallet was found, no even apologized.
blackburn9 2 months ago 4
You make some pretty good points. But you've herd the message that women should fight back against all the injustice in the world towards women. Well it appears that this is what Rebecca was trying to do but against a non- injust incident. I don't take time out of my schedule to go after an issue unless I feel it's really worth it. Someone asking to have coffee who does take no for an answer is still a threat even after they've moved on?
adumb341 3 months ago 3
My Sri Lankan girlfriend was seeing her ex behind my back. A man who put her in the emergency room after beating her once, and had raped her on a few of occasions before that inncendent. The strange thing is that she has this kind of paranoid delusional fear of strange men who approach her and she doesn't see the real dangerous situation she puts herself in by trying to remain friends with the ex. That's the problem with most paranoia: it overlooks the real issues in favor of the imagined.
greg0879 3 months ago 2
@greg0879
Run for your life
utubehayter 2 months ago
Nut case bitches....I'm surprised she didn't try to get him arrested for having facial hair
Drebln893 3 months ago
I as a guy am terrified of paranoid women.
TheAdept33 3 months ago
@TheAdept33 ...Imagine if he slighty touched her...lol..owwww shiiiiiit...She would want him sent to Gitmo!
Drebln893 3 months ago
...with no danger and no conflict and that is simply impossible. somewhere along the line, these people really need to grow up!
JGvisions 3 months ago
Yes, what you just said about women first reacting, then recalling and contemplating the situation about what happenes in those situations in such a way is do to Fear. It is understandable yet it throws into question other sacrad cow ideologies held by the populous like men and women being equal (not under the law mind you,lol). learn how to defend yourself, physically, mentally, ect and this reactions wont happen. it feels like Fems are trying to terraform the planet into a place...part 1
JGvisions 3 months ago
For all of you who don't know what happened:
~Elevator~
He: Hey, would you like a coffee?
She: SEXIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTT !!!!!
End of the story.
sooperfukker 3 months ago
I found this very interesting. As a 6'+ male I don't consider any confrontation with one person a problem, but if I was an average female (5' 3") I think my perspective would be starkly different - which is why I can see both side of this argument. I cannot have empathy with what Rebecca faced, so I really cannot judge.
dave28lax 3 months ago
3 am is RAPE O' CLOCK - pyramid head
theyforcedmetosignup 4 months ago
Oh and by the way: I subscribed to your channel. You're pretty. Would you like to have coffee?
swilson3d 4 months ago 2
I think this was more about Rebecca's insecurity than anything this guy did wrong.
If her worst problem is that occasionally a guy is attracted to her, I'm not going to shed any tears for her. Dawkins was right, tons of people would love to have to deal with people asking them out all the time. Frankly, I doubt the guy would have bothered if he had only been aware of her attitude about the situation.
swilson3d 4 months ago 13
Real women's liberation will come when women have SEXUAL liberation and are no longer afraid to express their sexual desires openly, the way men do. We are sexual beings - men, women, genderqueer - identified alike. We are ALL sex objects in the sense that we have the potential to be the object of someone's sexual desire. Our sexuality is something to be celebrated, not feared. It would be nice is Rebecca spread a message of freedom, not fear.
FM897 4 months ago
Well now it's a crime to "sexualize" a woman by finding her attractive? This is straight out of Orwell's 1984. Bullshit bullshit bullshit.
amaxamon 4 months ago
To listen to Rebecca's response to these videos and emails, please watch her response at the beginning of her talk for CFI
Rebecca Watson: The Religious Right vs. Every Woman on Earth | CFI This appears to be a cogent argument for the point that she may have been originally trying to make.
Playzon 4 months ago
@Playzon I've watched it and I couldn't see any correlation between what she said there and what happened in the elevator. Are you talking about how her podcast covers controversial subjects and she gets crazy responses from some atheists?
urantivirus 4 months ago
@urantivirus Sorry, this wasn't a terribly clear video to link to. The section I was referring to starts at 12:25. I think I may have confused it for other postings. Thanks for the catch.
Playzon 4 months ago
"shatter the atheist community"? eh? "in an elevator with a guy you dont know... you'd be TERRIFIED"? LOLOL its irritating men-hating women like this that really get on my fucking ass - if you feel afraid of getting in an elevator at 4:00am with people you dont know... then, DONT GET IN ELEVATORS AT 4:00AM WITH PEOPLE YOU DONT FUCKING KNOW... and what gives you the right to NOT BE OFFENDED?... why are there so many of these men-hating feminist douche-cunts? Seriously? get over yourselves lol.
GoVir4l 4 months ago
god job blabbing forever and not getting to a point. GG
2Banarne2 5 months ago
@2Banarne2
2Banarne2 5 months ago
So, nothing happened. and all this from nothing? People need prozac
Twicebakedtaters 5 months ago
oooow fro crying out loud, what an end...
okok i'll subscribe ;)
mindwis3 5 months ago
The "solution" offered here is retarded. I am a martial artist, but still i know how easy is to be overpowered in bad situation. Situations that are rare, tough, and thats the point. The solution is not to be all walking lethal weapons, is to teach the feminazi out there that man and rapist are not synonymous, and that when a man hit on you he does not see you only as a hole. If he is polite, just say yes/no thanks according to your interest, and thats it. R.watson just come out as a bitch, imho
Origami84 5 months ago
How did this get to be so big? Watson was propositioned in an elevator, and all she had to say was "no, thank you" or "piss off". Why is this seen as such a big issue?
YoungLifeVices 5 months ago
I agree with your most substantive point: empowerment is preferable to victimization. Most of this has been making a lot out of a little, but the issue has served as a wedge for disparate views in the community. The key to feeling safe is the confidence that you can defend yourself.
Friendough 5 months ago
The girl was just paranoid cause she read too many feminist scare mongering propaganda books.
AdviceBro 5 months ago
She (Rebeca) continued the Big No the next day in a video.
no1saphead 5 months ago
It's too bad that you feel generically threatened like that. The chances of some random dude jumping out of the bushes and raping you are extremely slim. When you fear violence you become its victim before it happens.
devourerofbabies 6 months ago
Aren't you going to pick up the phone? It's driving me nuts.
utuebmakeustupid 6 months ago
Dawkins is well known for pwning ridiculousness and elevatorgate is just another example.
uknichu 6 months ago
A man and a woman in an elevator at odd times is always a rape situation. There are many such rape situations. Get over it.
uknichu 6 months ago
rapists are supernatural? o.O
uknichu 6 months ago
@uknichu - I believe she means that rapists are reported as being very powerful, and therefore seem superhuman. The ones who make it into the movies and onto the news are the real, literal psychopaths and sociopaths, real outliers from the norm of humanity. When people are more educated (as I was in self defense class) that most people are raped by someone they know, and that one CAN fight a rapist off and/or survive an attack, the feeling that we [women] are powerless fades.
ReligiousFiction 5 months ago
@ReligiousFiction "most people are raped by someone they know" with all due respect, that sounds like BS.
uknichu 5 months ago
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@uknichu
"most people are raped by someone they know" with all due respect, that sounds like BS. "
It does not matter what it sounds like to you, but the numbers do indicate this quite overwhelmingly.
mindwis3 5 months ago
Yes, this weird "elevatorgate" shows that atheists don't overrespect "their" "authorities", but it shows a big strain of irrationality as well.
I know the kind of pseudofeminist bias that was shown by many in this case, because I tend to have it as well. But I hate it.
nefaristo 6 months ago
GEt your facts right! Rebecca was NOT propositioned!
psandbergnz 6 months ago
how has rape even come up if she wanted to avoid the situation then she shouldnt have stayed out drinking till rape hour
modelzero1 6 months ago
Rape hour?
sexymodels5 6 months ago
@sexymodels5 : come on, rape hour, don't you know? From 1:00 to 5:00 a.m. :)
nefaristo 6 months ago
@nefaristo How about rapey supernatural supermen, x-men rape class?
sexymodels5 6 months ago
@sexymodels5 : I like that phrase! I agree with Dissenteens, it seems that most women don't realize that a man is just a man, and you've got to be *much* weaker/smaller than your aggressor to have no chance at all from the start. At least that's what I thought when I felt somehow physically threatened - it could be delusional, but sometimes fear is as well.
Is that english? Who knows.
nefaristo 6 months ago
All she said was.she felt uncomfortable. As if a.man has.never felt unconfotable with the reverced situation. We just havent heard of it because no one cares. And no one should care about this just as.richard dawkins was trying to point out..
newb4714 6 months ago
Her feelings are pretty much irrelevant. The poor guy asked in an extremely polite way and she said no and he forgot all about it by the time he got to his doorway I am sure.
I feel sorry for HIM in all of this. He made a polite respectful and even flattering request and she said no and she then did things that could have made him an object of derision, especially with the more frightening and rabid of feminists out there, should his identity be revealed.
She really over reacted.
MultiSciencerules 6 months ago
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MultiSciencerules 6 months ago
Further on the self defense point...if you are a woman of average size or smaller, you are still going to be vulnerable in situations like being alone on an elevator at 3 in the morning. And that is always going to be a sticking point in trying to build a gender-equal society! And shame on some of these asshole guys here and similar video threads, who spend the rest of their time whining because of the gender imbalance of freethought groups. No wonder they don't show up!
rusty57 6 months ago
Dissenteen
I agree with your basic point that most women can help themselves and develop a greater sense of self-confidence (which actually helps deter the likelihood of attack) by learning a little self defense. But, unless you live in Alabama or something, you can't go running around with gun.
Forget about knives and guns, go to a certified martial arts class and spend time practicing some basic skills that can be tailored to your abilities and disadvantages.
rusty57 6 months ago
I always find it amazing when I meet extremely successful women. They don't hate men, and their not afraid of them. My guess is that they have tackled so much because that's what a mans world IS. A mans world is a constant battleground. You are getting wounded on a regular basis, and the only way to deal with it is to fight back! Women are not weak, it amazes me when women choose to be weak instead to tackling the challenges in the world around them and as a result becoming strong.
rexxthunder 6 months ago
@rexxthunder
Women have been and still are the most privileged group of people that have ever existed, their failure to attain what men have made is from none other than their privilege to money from males, their exemption from responsibility, and their victim complex. Women have been the most protected and entitled people. Just the idea that men would care if a woman was a success is a ridiculous idea, the idea that we hate you because we want to have sex with you is total nonsense.
BeaveHolio 6 months ago
We live in a world of constant fear and antisocial sentiment. Of COURSE she is going to be extremely uncomfortable. DUH?!?!?!?!!
c00lwatter 6 months ago
I don't usually carry broken beer bottles.
minaminogue123 6 months ago
If women are so afraid of going out, they should just not go out. Rather than villainize all "strange" men and put them in the category of potential rapists, stay home or make sure you walk 2 paces behind your husband everywhere you go.
How delusional women are now a days. Go live in Rwanda for 2 weeks and you will have a better appreciation for men in your countries, you ungrateful, spoiled western bitches.
NinjaZ1001 6 months ago
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i have been asked out by a few girls in my past, with whom i had no sexual interest at all. and it made me really uncomfortable. the way i was treated by these women was chauvinistic and degrading and aggresive. great logic huh?
scottpastry 6 months ago
I agree and disagree. I would not expect a man to be thrilled if I followed him to an elevator and asked him to come back to my room, nor would I expect a bunch of the women to go around getting paranoid about rise of Chauvinist Nazis... the whole thing is silly. Stand in the middle and look both ways. It's better to talk to people in a group and don't go to atheist conventions if you're a woman.
Buntzums 6 months ago
people need to get over all this collectivism garbage (e.g. race, sex, religion, nationality, etc), and focus on INDIVIDUAL rights.
thorkyll 6 months ago
Men have soft spots. People would tend to think 'men ... soft spots ... oh she means the crown jewels'. No - I mean the eyes. Seriously, eye injury means they can't chase you coz they can't see where they're going ... plus - it's an easy injury to pick out when they get to the hospital. Scratch marks on the face aren't easily missed.
Frankly I think the whole 'elevatorgate' thing is a storm in a teacup. Dawkins response nailed it.
timtamtyrant 6 months ago
(cont...) However there is one particular thing I would like internet commentators to think on and address - and that is the prevalence of use of the word 'rape' to describe pwnage. It trivialises rape and frankly it's disturbing to me that so many internet (including a good number of the mmorpg community I'm in) people use the word so readily.
timtamtyrant 6 months ago
ps - I agree with Nilguiri - guns are unnecessary and, if anything, escalate fear and violence. You can still easily defend yourself without having a gun.
Like I said, go for the eyes ^^.
timtamtyrant 6 months ago
There's a good reason why people are reacting to Watson's account of the tale, because she uses what may (or may not) be a pickup line in an elevator as an example of sexual objectification and being sexualized in a way that makes her uncomfortable. "Sexual objectification" is a relic from second wave feminism, and there's no clear evidence she was being sexualized.
She's not being mocked for the "Schrödinger’s Rapist" argument you present in your video.
mccritical 6 months ago
The "advice" at 4:30 is appalling.
Ju-jitsu is fair enough. But carrying weapons will usually result in them being used against you.
Plus, the mind boggles. The skepchick was clearly scared being alone in a confined space with this guy - who knows what she would have even considered doing if she was carrying a knife or a gun? One unintentional twitch of a finger and the guy could be dead (the penalty for that is life in prison in Ireland). Scared people do scary things.
jazzx251 6 months ago
Men do not enjoy having to approach women. In fact, they hate it. But society leave us no option. We get shot down again and again and again. But we don't complain. That is our lot. Approaching a woman that has been drinking until 3 or 4 in the morning, politely, is no big deal. Especially a woman that puts nudie calendars on her web site and projects the image of a confident, liberated feminist. To make matters worse she started the 'war' by calling for a Dawkins boycott.
rcguy69 6 months ago
@rcguy69 But as usual she is the victim somehow and the men are oppressing her. She overreacted, honestly if women have so much difficultly dealing with the fact that men asking them them out it in away that she doesn't like say no and walk away. Don't ask go on the internet and bitch about how men oppress women by making them feel uncomfortable. I think all these women clearly have some sort of aspergers syndrome and are blaming men for it.
stupidfeminazifoolz 6 months ago
@rcguy69 "Leave us no option"? WTF?! There's the obvious option of not fucking trying to have sex with strangers. Those who do are creeps. And it is a big deal. It should be a fucking sex crime to have sex with strangers.
Niwram 6 months ago
@Niwram
What on Earth is wrong with you?
khanmankhan10 6 months ago
@Niwram I've seen you on the other videos and it makes me wonder what you mean by strangers. Two people can have consenting sex while also being strangers to one another. There's nothing wrong with it as long as both are consenting.
Andjealous 6 months ago
@Andjealous if that poster isn't a troll, i've seen it all now. sex with strangers should be considered a sex crime? sounds to me like someone needs to get laid and is angry about it.
BillKiernan 5 months ago
@Niwram "And it is a big deal. It should be a fucking sex crime to have sex with strangers." If you're not a troll, this is one of the stupidest comments i've read regarding all this. should both consenting adults who don't know each other before having sex be arrested and tried? sexually frustrated and angry much?
BillKiernan 5 months ago
@Niwram How is it wrong to have sex with strangers, much less, who are you to suggest that his intention was to seduce this woman? It is a vague issue with vague circumstances that the majority has taken to these extremes only by way of a single woman's testimony of the situation. I have to second Richard's opinion in this case and the controversy is not worth the time, because a.) it's absurd and b.) there exists not enough information to fully judge this ...mundane event.
ZombifiedGuitarist 5 months ago 13
@ZombifiedGuitarist wrong to have sex with strangers one word... AIDS.
XBlackWolf10 1 month ago
@XBlackWolf10 well that'd explain why I've been getting my ass kicked by this cold. *sniff*
ZombifiedGuitarist 1 month ago
learn to shoot a gun? Jesus fucking Christ! seriously?
Ah right, you live in the USA where this deadly weapon thing is seen as reasonable behaviour.
You lot are out of control! I'm glad I live in a relatively civilized country where only hardened criminals and the police have weapons.
Just as well the elevator incident didn't happen in the USA or Rebecca would have probably blown the "would-be rapist's" nuts off with a fecking Colt 45.
Land of the free, home of the brave? haha! yeah,right.
Nilguiri 6 months ago 2
@Nilguiri A fire arm is a very useful tool for when someone doesn't take no for an answer and insists on stealing or committing a violent act. Must be great when only the police and hardened criminals have the means to fuck over citizens. If we all married police officers problem solved eh? I'm sure the police are right there whenever someone is about to be mugged, raped, murdered. The problem I have with some gun owners is that most don't know about gun safety and the use of minimal force.
mistereveready 5 months ago
Womens lib has made women more "promiscuous", or sexually free -- choose your own wording. Now, I think the problem lies in the fact that women have a deep issue with this mandate from feminism -- it cheapens them. And in order to contend with that conflict, they have to project on every man being a "potential rapist". This puts the blame outside of her ideology.
mindprism 6 months ago
did you say "3am pretty much Rape hour"?? Wow, we live in a false rape culture, not a rape culture, men are victims of rape far more than women are. She was not afraid, her sad little ego and pride was offended because she had 'just been talking about... bla bla bla' wasn't this man hanging off of every word she had said?? She simply cannot keep her sexist bigoted beliefs out of the subject of atheism. Pathetic.
MRAGreatestHits 7 months ago
I'm not sure why Dawkins would way in on this. It seems beneath him.
Watson's comments about being sexualized are kind of amusing. If she were to ask someone she fancied for conversation and coffee, would she be "sexualizing" them?
DejectedPanda 7 months ago
Other related factors can be about attitude, style of communication, and choices in how to go about things, since rapists tend to go for the easier targets. Thus, even w/o getting kung fooed up or packing heat, a woman can ask for an escort to her room, devise ways of talking with creepy characters which help them realize not to even ask, or "accidentally" drop a (fake) police badge/ID on the floor, etc.
gedgetips 7 months ago
Martial arts is bullshit (courtesy Penn & Teller).
9886635574 7 months ago
As a man I feel extreme vulnerable around strange women especially ones that look like Rebbecca Watson. Oh and X men Rape class. lmao
max2082 7 months ago
Comment removed
DejectedPanda 7 months ago
"women are in so much danger" My ass. So much for bold feminism, destroying gender roles. ** Also, I get nervous when a black man gets on the elevator with me when Im alone. I mean after all, I have a legitimate reason to be afraid of black men.....dont I? Of course not, that would be prejudiced at best, racist at worst. This elevator shit discussion is the same crap - youre either a fuckin sexist or an idiot....and this feminism shit is supposed to represent empowered women, not sexists
AmsterdamHeavy 7 months ago
@AmsterdamHeavy Wow, you said it just the way I felt it. Tnx!
rhov233 7 months ago
WOW! you have the audacity to say that ALL women live in fear of men. What arrogance. If you as a woman fear all men are going to harm you, I can only think of one word 'broken.'
PropheciesofWar 7 months ago
Women make less money than men for a reason. Research it a little before going on what every feminist tells you is true.
michael1791 7 months ago
Your cute little dig about "70 cents to the dollar" was not lost upon me, but I can't help wondering why you, an atheist and skeptic, would be repeating old, discredited feminist canards. Aren't we atheists and skeptics known for being iconoclastic freethinkers and troublemakers who challenge establishment dogmas? ;)
fidelbogen 7 months ago
The thing that saddens me is that the complains aroused by the incident are highly nuanced and focus on specific issues yet Rebecca supporters (for this topic at least) respond to them all with the same replies as if they aren't even reading the contents of the complains.
And *that* is my [meta-]issue with Rebecca's elevator gate.
World Flammewar, that's funny.
rgzdev 7 months ago
I do not sympathize with Rebecca. The chances of a women being raped is infinitesimally small, on the order of 0.00000001%. In a typical day you have a far better chance of being killed in a car accident than being raped. Of course, normal well adjusted humans don't hold irrational fears of cars or rape.
I sincerely hope she seeks psychiatric help so that she can co-exist in the world without fear, because it can be so debilitating.
AirplaneRider 7 months ago 6
To me, IntegralMath said all that needed to be said from the male "side" of this matter.
Reviresco 7 months ago
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@Reviresco He damn sure did!
AmsterdamHeavy 7 months ago
I think Dawkins was bound to say something about her at some stage. They are completely different types of people. I imagine she gets on his nerves. She certainly gets on mine. I'm disappointed with the amount of women who have completely taken her side.
djcondra 7 months ago
that jujitsu empowerment thing....ha ha you keep that false sense of security. that shit the gracies indoctrinated the world with is being shown to the world as foolishness
TENNSUMITSUMA 7 months ago
Really good point and finally a very mature argument from a woman's point of view.
I find you really interesting and would like to learn more, care for some coffee?
philateliceun 7 months ago
@anothergazman It seems you have never carried a gun before. To understand where I am coming from better, I suggest you try it some time. This will help you to understand the concerns and states of mind that go along with being responsible for your own security. Given that you seem to maintain situational awareness and a level head already, carrying for a bit should not be a big deal for you.
AndreisEntaro 7 months ago
@AndreisEntaro I can't carry a gun, they are banned here except in certain situations (hunting rifles and shotguns) and I really don't want people in this country to have the right to either. Gun crime here is pretty rare, so much so that any gun crime makes the news and is not normal.
anothergazman 7 months ago
I think you missed the point of Watson's vid. It wasn't that the guy threatened her or that she felt threatened. It was the guy was "mysogynist" because he presumed that she may want to have sex with him. Like many women, Watson feels men "should just know" when an advance is appropriate. This is a form of sexism that expects men to be mind readers.
comslave 7 months ago
YOU ARE AWESOME. Are you single?
morgancatha 7 months ago
You are completely right.
If you feel your security is threatened carry a gun. Or start lifting weights and take self defense classes.
This is also not an issue unique to females. It is part of what drives men to be "manly".
You should always feel secure in your person, if you do not then you need to take steps to correct that situation.
Also, the issue you were referring to does not seem as big a deal to others I think. This is the first I've heard of it.
AndreisEntaro 7 months ago
@AndreisEntaro A gun? bad idea. A good healthy understanding of the actual likelihood of being attacked (basic risk assessment) and some common sense (ie: dont go down dark alley ways) combined with some self defense classes should be sufficient for the most part. The last thing you need is a scared person pulling a gun on every potential threat.
anothergazman 7 months ago
@anothergazman The end of your comment assumes so much it becomes meaningless or even derogatory to females. Who says the average female would be in such a state of mind? Additionally, the ability to defend oneself should the threat actually manifest tends to alter the mind from a state of panic to a state of planning. I.E.-"what can I do if something happens" rather than "what is this person going to do to me". Though I will give you that risk assessment and situation awareness are critical.
AndreisEntaro 7 months ago
@AndreisEntaro I never said the "average female" would be, i said a SCARED PERSON (rapes and muggings don't just happen to women), but the idea that arming people against a relatively rare crime is the answer is frankly dumb (ever hear of escalation?). Are you saying no one would overreact and wrongly pull a gun on a percieved threat? There are better and safer ways of avoiding and dealing with such situations than guns.
anothergazman 7 months ago
@anothergazman Hard to say actually. If I accept the state of mind you suggest as a starting point, your argument makes a bit of sense. I was more concerned with the context application, your first comment seemed to imply that the person in question might have overreacted and there is nothing to show that would be the case.
That said, there is also no information that I am aware of which suggests people would just pull guns out because they are scared.
AndreisEntaro 7 months ago
@AndreisEntaro It's hard to say how anyone would react, and thats really my point! It is pretty well known that where people have more guns more people get shot, if a mugger wants to rob someone who they think is armed they will often just shoot then rob them in order to reduce the risk to themselves. This happened in south africa with car jackings after drivers were given permission to carry concealed guns, the car jackers would just walk up behind them and shoot through the window.
anothergazman 7 months ago
@anothergazman Fortunately, we are not talking about South Africa. For civilized nations, criminals are not so ready to up robbery to murder and they tend to target those who are clearly unarmed and unaware. Crime statistics are difficult to use due to differences in classification and reporting, however, I do know that within the US there is a trend showing a increase in violent crime in places where guns are banned. (IE- places where the citizens are unarmed for sure)
AndreisEntaro 7 months ago
@AndreisEntaro Are you saying that south africans aren't civilised? Now who's being derogatory? In my country where firearms are mostly banned gun crime is the exception. You're right about comparisons though it is very tricky. It doesn't take much though to realise that if everyone can carry a gun then every person with anger management issues or a drug problem or criminal intent can also carry one without being challenged till its too late, want to bet who'd be the first to pull a gun?
anothergazman 7 months ago
@anothergazman Obviously the criminal element in South Africa is less civilized and that will follow from the government's inability to reliably break up criminal organizations. So yes, I am implying that a nation in which carjackers can get away with just shooting their victims as a matter of course may be less civilized. People with criminal intent tend to carry guns(or weapons) anyway, disregard for the law is part of being a criminal. They also tend to conceal them to avoid being challenged.
AndreisEntaro 7 months ago
@AndreisEntaro I don't see how the SA street criminals are in your mind less civilised than say a drug addict robbing someone for money for their next fix but hey. I feel we're probably getting away from the videos issues now though so i think I'll call it a night for now.
Thanks.
anothergazman 7 months ago
@anothergazman I give you that it is hard to say how people will react only with the caveat that overreaction and subsequent shooting out of fear has not been shown to be the case for any measurable percentage of the population, at least not to my knowledge. If you have something that supports your position on that, I'd like to read it.
AndreisEntaro 7 months ago
I am sorry, but I am ignorant. Where can i find the video about this? I think I am looking at the wrong ones.
iTzxNooBs 7 months ago
New Atheism....split apart.......I dont care about this high school shit, give it 2 months i doubt many will care....
shandcunt 7 months ago
I don't think the problem is her being afraid. That's fine and perfectly normal at 4 Am in a strange country.
Where the problem is, and where she is absolutely 100% wrong, is with her blogging about it after it was a non issue and there was no threat to her. She made the big deal out of being asked out. Buddy in the elevator was guilty of bad timing perhaps.
Dawkins was right. There are real issues in the world to give time to this non issue.
tommy605 7 months ago
@tommy605 I get the feeling that, for her, it kind of was a big deal. I don't think it happens much, lol.
l337pwnage 7 months ago
I like a lot of what you have to say and am glad to find you! Please keep making vids. I'm grateful to hear your run-down of what's been going on. I'm not attached to the grapevine, so I didn't know, even though I posted her original talk.
ReligiousFiction 7 months ago
Nice vid. I concur your advice for women to learn self-defense mechanisms. Coming to actual point, Dawkins is not known for his tact. He is direct, blunt and ridicules theist beliefs. He employed the same approach to a woman's belief and now he is called misogynist. All are equal is out of the window. He can blast theist's beliefs but not a women's beliefs the same way. Who is actually right is irrelevant here. Women wanting equality should be ready to take verbal ridicule and criticisms.
nonamechannel 7 months ago 21
@nonamechannel One of the most lucid observations I've seen in this entire debate.
MizManagement 7 months ago
@MizManagement Thanks! That's the irony of the whole incident. Supposedly Rebecca has Dawkin's blunt public discourse against theists as her cell phone ring and wanted him saying "Idiotic retard" as her new cell phone ring. All that changed when she became the object of the ridicule.
nonamechannel 7 months ago
@nonamechannel Radfems want all the benefits of equality, but none of the responsibilities...
MrTruthAddict 7 months ago
@nonamechannel "Women wanting equality should be ready to take verbal ridicule and criticisms."
If they toss around semantic twaddle like the word "equality", then yes, they should be ready to take ridicule and criticism.
fidelbogen 7 months ago
COME AT ME BRO. I'LL TAKE YOU.
LightoftheWest7 7 months ago
@DissenteensInRevolt
You are wrong, because the MESSAGE was NOT directed to women, it was directed to MEN and MEN ONLY!
"don't do that!" is not intended for women!
hedleypanama 7 months ago
Empowering women is worthwhile, but that would not justify tolerance for men being threatening or disrespectful towards women
loveofphysics 7 months ago
@loveofphysics Of course not! The main problem is making sure men know that many of us live under threat of attack, and that they should take that into account when engaging with us. But empowerment will help remove that initial fear.
DissenteensInRevolt 7 months ago
@loveofphysics
Don't you think its disrespectful and threatening to consider all men rapists. Do you think its okay to make male heterosexuality a crime? That any proposition to a woman is an act of attempted rape and intimidation, that looking at a woman is sexual harassment. Should it be illegal to be a man?
BeaveHolio 6 months ago
@BeaveHolio So you think a request that men refrain from being disrespectful towards women is equivalent to a calling men rapists? There is no point in talking to you.
loveofphysics 6 months ago
@loveofphysics
What would a women be threatened of if not rape. I don't exactly see it as disrespect either, one can't know what's disrespectful to every person they talk to. There is no such thing as something being offensive there is only such a thing as being offended. However skep chick decided to blankly tell every that what made her uncomfortable applies to all women and to all men. He also decided to label anyone who disagreed with her as a misogynist.
BeaveHolio 6 months ago
@BeaveHolio It it ridiculous to change this question from "should Elevator Guy have treated Watson the way he did in the elevator?" to "Should Watson ever voice the thought that the Atheist Community is sexist?", because the fact that the latter question is raised by the majority of Atheists, demonstrates that the Atheist community is much more concerned by a man being falsely accused of sexism, than a woman being the victim of sexism, thus proving the Atheist Community is sexist.
loveofphysics 6 months ago
@loveofphysics
So it is sexist to be skeptical of a woman's claim that she was a victim of sexism. So in your virtue we are all guilty before we are innocent if we are men but completely objective and truthful when we are women, seems to me that you are the sexist. Not only that but this contempt for male heterosexuality is nothing but sexist, out right call this man a pervert and that he objectified her is sexist. The entire idea of objectification is an attack on heterosexuality.
BeaveHolio 6 months ago
@BeaveHolio So you think that male heterosexuals are only capable of expressing or satisfying their sexuality is by demeaning and objectifying women? You think far too little of males.
loveofphysics 6 months ago
@loveofphysics
Explain how anyone is demeaned or objectified. Define objectification and I will tell you why you are wrong. Having sex or asking for sex is in no way demeaning or an act of objectification.
BeaveHolio 6 months ago
@BeaveHolio Rebecca felt demeaned and objectified...so...what do you want to do? Debate about whether or not we should validate her feelings about an event that happened to her? This debate is really tiring...
loveofphysics 6 months ago
@loveofphysics
Feeling are not an objective measure of anything I can feel I was violated and wronged but that doesn't make it so. I can believe that I am a victim when I am not.
BeaveHolio 6 months ago
I <3 RAPE.
LightoftheWest7 7 months ago
I agree that Rebecca felt threatened and we definitely want to reduce this felling, but I don't think what this guy did deserves this. It is possible that another woman in her shoes would have just said. No thanks and thought nothing else. I think sensitivity has a lot to play in this issue. Personally i want to defend the right of a man to ask a woman in an elevator "would you like to get a coffee back at my place" at 4 in the morning. Women should blow him off and be done with it.
TomSkorupski 7 months ago
that girl is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dumb
PerfectWoman2 7 months ago
The other things is that one night stands and short term romances do happen a lot in hotels when they are on holiday or conference. Being hit on in an elevator at 4 am is actually expected on those places. People are on a holiday and have a great time. Flirting is one way to have a great time and for most women this is giving a great feeling after the initial surprise moves away and realize that they are still hot.
obaeyens 7 months ago
Can people stop with this "foreign country" BS? She was in Dublin!! That's like a couple of hours from where she lives!
santosbl01 7 months ago
As a woman, I have to say how utterly absurd! This man did absolutely nothing wrong.
nybalb 7 months ago
Rape culture? I stopped listening to this at this point.
leostomicek 7 months ago
It is perfectly understandable that a woman would feel nervous when being approached by an unknown man. The fact of the matter is, however, that there is no way to have sex with out putting yourself in a vulnerable situation. Unless you're ready to go to jail for disturbing public order you will eventually have to withdraw to a remote location for the act, thus making yourself vulnerable. Blaming men for this is meaningless, as there is no way we can make sex a perfectly secure endeavour.
yothereDK 7 months ago
Rape culture? More like feminist rape hysteria.
TruTV 7 months ago 2
I have friends who carry loaded guns.
Loved your comments. I have been amazed at the ridiculous upset by many men at her comments about her feelings. I would have felt the same way and how clueless was that guy? Where is the offense by these same men at the rape threat email she got?
She has over-reacted, but then so did others. Dawkins... why did he wade into the discussion in the first place dismissing a young woman's feelings. Face palm! Yet... her vendetta against him is stupid.
MegF142857 7 months ago
@MegF142857 I agree. I will continue to read my Dawkins books.
DissenteensInRevolt 7 months ago 2
"Gets propositioned and doesn't return the favor" ~ DissenteensInRevolt, what do you mean by 'propositioned'? If you're suggesting he was proposing a request for sexual relations you're making an assumption.
kitsunegames 7 months ago
learn not to demonize men ? perhaps .
sausage4mash 7 months ago
You know what's sad about this situation. Everyone is calling Richard privileged heterosexual white male. Without ever considering reading his work. In 2006 Dawkins wrote a heartfelt letter to his fans about how he in fact had been sexually molested as a child. So before people attack him for not having a perspective read his shit people. Being sexually molested as a child is no laughing matter. And yet Rebecca Watson said "no" and EG said okay.
NeuroVeg 7 months ago
@NeuroVeg rebecca does not care about anything but her own socially status.
richard challenged her perspective and that would not do.
she, in turn, has attempted to assassinate the character of dawkins.
her days in the lime light are numbered.
unperson4 7 months ago 2
Comment removed
NeuroVeg 7 months ago
He broke elevator ettiquette. Unless they were in the middle of a on going conversation it seems like an innappropriate place to proposition another person.
TheLummer66 7 months ago
@TheLummer66 Opportunities aren't always had in the most appropriate places. Perhaps this guy didn't have a prior opportunity and knew here was his last one. He politely asked her for coffee and a conversation, she declined, he accepted her refusal, later on she made it out to be evil male sexuality once again rearing it's head, the terrible desire of men to want sex with women, "Oh noes".
kitsunegames 7 months ago
@kitsunegames There is a lot anxiety people feel in elevators. Without commenting on this specifics of this instance, someone should have the good sense not to propostion in an elevator. There is good reason why this is coming back to bite him in the ass. A rational person would do it an open forum where the person doesn't feel trapped (whatever the outcome)
TheLummer66 7 months ago
@TheLummer66 A rational person would realize that opportunities aren't always available in appropriate places, and wouldn't make a stink about it. So far as I know this was the last night in a hotel, in a foreign country, that these two had the chance to speak to each other. There was no opportunity to have such a discussion in an open forum, and there would be none, as both would likely be taking different modes of transportation to different locations at different times. Never to meet again.
kitsunegames 7 months ago
@kitsunegames So how did that work out for him. I get the idea of rolling the dice, elevators are completely verboten to do this. It's a no win situation and caused more hot air than it was worth. If he expected a positive result he can't be all that rational.
TheLummer66 7 months ago