Added: 5 years ago
From: 1118mich
Views: 88,698
Sort by time | Sort by thread (beta)

Link to this comment:

Share to:
see all

All Comments (255)

Sign In or Sign Up now to post a comment!
  • WACK!!

  • Looks like Americas Best Dance Crew competition.

  • Aikido is not a competitive martial art! Your one is not aikido!

  • u actually have to be very loose and light on ur feet cause there are times when u find ur self on the ground in a matter of seconds like literally get smashed straight into the ground

  • let the MOUSE hit the MUTE button......

  • Well, there is no competition in Aikido between uke and nage. So I'm assuming, in this competition, judging is based on the execution of techniques. Another possibility is that these are Aikido demonstrations during a martial arts competition.

  • @samuraixtian There's also tomiki aikido...

  • @samuraixtian yes you are correct,judging is based on perfect execution techniques,aikido is no tournament due to very dangerous techniques,even in ufc aikido technics is not applicable,i know that coz im player also of aikido.God bless

  • These are demo clips.

  • i dont understand this.. what are the rules and ways of these competitions?

    i pracitice normal aikido where we dont have anything called competition in it as far as i know

  • lol at 2:02 when the guys falls backwards over his "opponent" and the other attacker pauses for a second and allows him to stand back up. On the streets he would be getting boot fucked there.

  • @badbjjer21 this is not real competition in that sense.. this is more a technical competition if i understand it right.. where they do techniques in faster and fluent manner.

  • hahahahaaaaa

  • It's awesome how they keep such poise when they pull off a move, as if it took no effort at all.

  • Aikido does not have competitions...

  • @oceanstuff2000

    Yes, one type of aikido does.

  • das eigentliche aikido hat eigentlich keinen Wettkampf

  • As much as I love Aikido (having practiced for 4 years now and now being a 2nd kyu), I would never use 85% of what I've learned in the dojo in real life. Much of the "ki" and "redirecting" comes from the partner cooperating and being relaxed. In a real situation or fight, it won't be the same.

    I would never give someone my back or let them run around me in circles like a few techniques show. Some locks such as Nikyo and Gokyo may work but that is it.

  • Aikido is not a competitive or aggressive martial art and thus the title is controversial. You can still compete by demonstrating who has better technique. It is arguable but lets not go there.

  • check out youtube user GWALLA... he's got some aikido tournament videos on his channel... watch how aikido practitioners fight when their opponents are allowed to give full resistance instead of just cooperating with each other...

  • Ramey vs. Matsubara - 2009 International Aikido Tournament men's randori semifinal watch how this turns into a pushing contest when real resistance is given to the opponent...

  • it's a video of aikido practitioners sparring against each other... notice how they are resisting against each other and nothing gets broken... notice how none of them are really able to perform their fancy schmancy joint manipulations when they encounter a fully resisting training partner... Morgan vs Yamada 2009 International Aikido Tournament men's randori round 2

  • aikido is taken from jujitsu if people dont escape or roll then they will get seriously hurt the attacker and the defender both know this so it is thought this way to better their technique simple as, if people dont think it is useful or effective simple go to a class

  • why can i find examples on youtube of every martial art being used practically/competitively except akido,every clip i can find of akido is choreographed,

  • @unclepunkle I know right all of the aikido films arent real fights

  • I don't get the whole sequence from 1:00 - 1:25 - the aggressors are running at the demonstrator with their arms straight out at him. Who would do that? I looks like they might be simulating a knife attack??? I recognize that it's a demo - it looks good to non-MA to have ppl falling all over. I think aikido has some useful concepts. but when uki is playing dumb, I would gather that's why most ppl don't take aikido seriously from a self-defense standpoint...that, and little ground work

  • Some of these techniques can really work against uncooperative opponents - it's all a matter of how one trains. I use tenchi-nage against strong Judo opponents in Judo class, and it works quite well, as do variations of other techniques (so that they're legal in Judo). It's a matter of context and training. Some of these people do look quite deadly.

  • can someone explain to me the rules of this kind of competition ??

  • the best in 1 min !!!!!!!!!!!!! XD

  • i new in aikido!!!!!!!

  • Guys run at each other with their arms sticking out then allow their opponents to grip their limbs. No real fighter does that, this is not real period. This should be classified as a performance art like capoeira demonstration

  • Im still a noob with Aikido, but I really love it.

    I hope I'll get that good, haha x3

  • its like the professional wrestling of the judo world

  • ...and the oscar goes to 1:30.

  • @GoBuffs03 Seriously. If it's for combat only, then why NOT do an MMA fight with an Aikido practitioner? They go in there expecting to get hurt, in fact KNOWING that they ARE going to get hurt. So why NOT show the doubters the real power of Aikido? I understand the spiritual side, hell, the Shoalin Monks developed upon what they learned to PREVENT fighting and being overrun by those against them. Is it REALLY disrespectful to ask to see a the art against someone that is fully fighting back?

  • lol this somehow reminds me of when im training with my sensei >.<

    one second im looking at him next second im facing the floor and the funny thing is its the same second i take in a breath xD(btw ive tried like holding my balance when he does a tech and its freakin hard if he gets you in the position)

  • I am unsure how you can have competition between two comliant partners ?

    Read the article " Aikido in MMA " by Rik Ellis who is an MMA fighter with a long background in Aikido ... Rik Ellis Blog

  • @Aikitrad

    Performance.

    On school's Nage and Uke's

    Judged by performance against others.

    Otherwise, you would have to have unaffiliated professional Uke's to attack each Nage. I lik ethat idea too.

  • @Aikitrad THANK YOU RIK ELLIS! Jesus! Time to kick out the excuses peeps!!!

  • drowning pool: the soundtrack of the greatest minds of our generation; with listeners such as: barack obama, bill gates, stephen hawking, chess champion magnus carlssen, warren buffet, shawn johnson, roger moore, and the list goes on and on!

  • "AIKIDO COMPETITION CLIPS" LOL More demos!

    "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS" Of what? Dancing?

  • @marcusorilius Hahaha seriously

  • Ahhhh! I love Aikido.

  • not a competition thumbs down

  • hakama in tomiki/shodokan aikido?

  • @taseljoff yep

  • This is just ballet in a martial arts Gi

  • Aikido is not made for competition.Not for selfdefense. Its like dancing.

    Dance but do not forget to run away in a selfdefense situation :D

  • @fuckeldackel smh. You really have no idea.

  • @fuckeldackel so you're saying if someone grabs your wrist like that to stop you from hitting them and twists it hard enough to nearly break it, that that isn't self defense? And since when is dodging which you do in all martial arts and fighting, considering useless dancing? Sometimes ignorance is bliss and other times, like with you, its just plain old ignorance... :D

  • 2:43 nice ukemi.

  • i did aikido for 14 months and judo for 6 years, the concepts in aikido are only for defense' but some of the techniques arent really appliable to real life unlike judo where i could use 8/10 chokes, throws and locks in a street fight easy.

  • Competition? This is more like a demonstration. Aikido isn't created for competition. You will never see two Aikido masters against each other, since it's a defencive martial art.

  • you can harm somebody. Aikido is use other person's strength and plus your own strength to harm someone

  • I guess you haven't heard of shodokan aikido!

  • a lot of ppl dont realize that if they dont spin, flip, or fall...they will get broken.

  • @d34dl34f Yea, but if they dont flip spin or fall, and they feel like their arm of whatever is stuck and could get broken, they will spin, flip or fall.

    Only the people who's never been in such a situation doesnt know it.

  • @d34dl34f

    i was just explaining this to a friend. he said Aikido is for old men and ladies, but I pointed out to him that these demonstration they flail about because they're trained to in order to prevent injury. i know aikido gets a lot of crap from the MMA folks, but I still think it's one of the most beautiful (and effective) martial arts.

  • @d34dl34f

    if you teach Aikido, i'd like you to do me a favor, please teach and show what happens when someone doesn't spin, flip, or fall. This martial art is on the list of fake martial arts or dance school. Even though i have not practiced this art, I still have respect for it. It is just that there are no resisting opponents doing the demonstration or anyone who volunteers outside of the crowd to see if they can whack the Aikido Master and fail. I want to see a vid that shows that

  • @AimingFist i'm doing aikido, and i thought like you. but aikido techniques can be deadlys or really painful.It's effective for self defense, NO FOR FIGHT but yes for protect yourself.

  • @Gamerforever1

    people these days...if they see pain or injury from a technique, it is enough to convince them that it works. Sometimes people don't critically think or envision the consequences of a technique. Why do a good amount of law enforcement officials practice traditional martial arts that many (mma guys) criticize? I say it is the practitioner, not the style that makes the martial artist effective. Aikido all the way!

  • @d34dl34f True, but if you know how to protect yourself, then nothing happens =] I already learned that, cuz I almost broke an arm. And so what if you break something? It will heal, haha xD

  • @d34dl34f EXACTLY!!! 

  • what a joke

  • nah, you probably would easily get broken limbs from many of these throws, look how the joints are in a locked position and the subdued has to go with it" otherwise broken wrists arms and shoulders would happen.

  • This is Competition. The guys beside tatami has flags, they will judge which Enbu is better(speed, reality, techniques...etc).

  • Correct, this is a demonstration and not a competition. Never heard of competitions in aikido. Would mean alot of broken limbs and injuries if aikido was a "tournement sport".

  • This is Shodokan Aikido, where the competion consists out of both embu or kata as well as randori. Just look Shodokan Aikido up here on Youtube. The world championships in Kyoto have just finished.

  • LOL so true and that's what people don't get. I think it's because all they are seeing is people flying from very little movement, and don't see the locks involved that would greatly maim someone if they didn't go with the flow.

  • its fake u moron. its a fake art

  • @you2306 lol have you ever been on the end of one of the techniques ?? some how i think not

  • i would kick his ass ok, i am a master

  • Fuck that it's fake. I've done real moves in real fights so don't tell me it's fake.

  • so, i still kick some master aikido old guy,

  • why would you kick an old guy? where's the honor in that? :)

  • what? honor. i show you honor by showing real martial artssss

  • you drunk?

  • no, i drunken box his ass

  • sigh... -_-

  • the song is perfect!!

  • Demonstration != competition.

  • WRONG! Demonstration = the other guy isn't trying to hurt you back/resist.

  • That would be one lousy demonstration then, wouldn't it?

  • Uh no it wouldn't. The purpose of a demonstration is to show how great something can be even if it isn't. Infomercials have demonstrations. They are choreographed.

  • Comment removed

  • lol at 2:01-2:03! he trips the guy and then he trips over him!

  • please spot attaching this song to videos of aikido for fuck's sake.

  • Spectacular video ... who knows the song?

  • Aikido is NOT ment for competition.

  • Is it has no use. If you cant compete against other people who use an organized fighting style like aikido then what will you do in a street fight?

  • @ReignOfIntolerance You are not meant for competition

  • @ReignOfIntolerance Then neither is jiujitsu since all techniques

    of akido came from it. LOL your remark was quite foolish.

  • they cant defend kicks or elbows? how can this be effective against muay thai?

  • The principals are the same that is for demonstration what you see is basicaly a show off for a demonstration. In a real fight you don't show off, you get straight to the point. at least that's the hope.

  • It cant. Not only Muay thai, any other combat art from Judo to TKD

  • Aikido is the best Japanese style.

  • Most useless. I would have to say the best is Judo, and I do Karate.

  • Aikido isn't easy to use nor any art is, but I can tell you as soon as you get the hang of an art how it has to be used, it can be helpful-my primary art is Jeet Kune Do and then Aikido; I did karate, ninja, shaolin long time ago, but I don't how effective those arts are, because it's something I wouldn't use, since I don't know too much about those-I feel more comfortable using JKD and Aikido.

  • I know its not easy, but In a street fight who do you think would win? An Art like aikido, or a Combat martial art derived on the battlefield such as Jujisu.

  • apolish-one of the keys to being a great fighter in any area is being fast, so it means if you are a specialist in attacking with fist, elbows, knees and legs, it will help to defeat your opponent, because of the speed, but if you are an specialist in grappling you need to be really fast at grappling to defeat your opponent, etc. it just doesn't matter what art you do, the faster you do it the better it is, and being limber is also important so you move much faster.

  • there are many tricks a person can use, one is tricking the opponent, moving around, moving on the side, moving on the back of the opponent, feinting an attack, using the strength of the opponent, using your eyes as a diversion etc. when a person learns something to defend him/her self, it's not just techniques, it's also intelligence, mixing your intelligence with techniques, most likely you will win.

  • I think i need a little of everything....Jeet Kune Do MMA (basically same concept/) Bruce Lee wanted simplicity and effectiveness....i want that in any fight too.....but aikido is good when you start because it starts with the basic less fancy trips and throws that actually works compared to its fancy one that tends to always be shown. Go with judo if you have the body size, if not go for aikido, either way keep the good stuff and forget the rest

  • lmfao, i'd like to see you back up those words

  • Does anyone have a GOOD and ACTUAL fight using aikido? Why is it everything I see is a demonstration? I want to see how it is used in a real confrontation. It is pretty neat looking, but is it really effective?

  • look up Rik Ellis. He combines aikido principles with standard MMA techniques in MMA fights.

  • Nice demo, but the clip is mislabeled. This is not a competition. There are Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido competition videos out there, but this is not one of them.

  • how is this scored? it kinda looks like one guy just lets the other do these moves on him it doesn't really look like they're both trying. is it scored on style or on takedowns?

  • This is form competition, and yes you are correct, one player takes the attacker role and one the thrower role, no resistance is given. Form competitions are scored on demonstration of principles, timing, etc.

  • the girl is doing sankyo. the guy at 0:29 looks like he's doing some variation of an irimi trip. I've never really seen it used that way before

  • what's the name of the technique at 0:28? anybody knows?

  • Gedan Ate, fourth technique fron the Randori-No-Kata

  • Comment removed

  • u cant compete in a self-defence sport can u?shit!

  • it looks like it is a mix of judo and aikido

  • how can you compete in aikido? the first who attacks loses

  • JUST DEMONSTRATION, NO COMPETITION

  • LOL I guess you loose points if you dont do the demonstration properly xD

  • Its kata competition mate. Competition doesnt have to mean kicking each others heads in. Kata is a demonstration of principles its not about real fighting. Just showing you understand it. So in competition my partner and i demonstraight alongside two others. The judges watch and decide who desplaid those prinseples to the better standard. Thats it its not randori. You also see ninindori this is not randori either its just ukes stimulating tori. Its building blocks. Randori is full resistance

  • This looks like some demonstration, its not Tomiko's competition, right? Belive me aikido can be very dangerous. What u see in this kind of clips is like slow motion (they dont want to injure the training partner), a well trained aikidoka with superb reflex and skills can move so f*****ng fast u will fly in no time with both ur arms broken

  • hahahahaha yoga wins:D:D:D

  • I have never understood why the attackers attack in such a retarded way. Running at someone with their fist straight or running at someone and then stopping and waiting to be flipped. Not trying to talk shit but every Aikido clip I see is a deomonsration. Where can I see real Aikido in action?

  • you can't, they're just a bunch of posers.

  • COMPETITION?

  • lol many country forces use aikido as martial arts i fail to see how aikido is un-efective

  • WTF?!

    Did anybody see that???

    2:00 - the so-called Aikido "master" throws one guy, then takes a step back, trips on him and FALLS FLAT ON HIS ASS!!!

  • so gayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

  • ok this aikido is the most effective martial art thing is a horrid argument

    aikido is extremely effective

    when your extremely fucking good at it

    an aikidoka whos been at it for a year or 2 is better off than your average street fighter but hes not gonna take out any boxers

  • i agree, but anything that you are good at, be it kung fu hapkido taekwon etc is always going to be effective. but i appreciate what you are saying.

  • well of course thats true good at it itll help

    if aikido was that effective the mma fighters would be using it

  • Aikido is an effective martial art. The real loosers in real life are Thaiboxers, Boxers etc......

  • You're kidding, right?

    Why exactly are they the real losers? Have you ever sparred with a kickboxer? I suggest you try it before talking shit.

  • what the fuck..aka wtf..u eva bin in a real scrap boxin saved my life.thaiboxing saved my soul. its pratical strong effective REAL! get a real job..ive neva bin attackd or bin run at like in these week ass aikido demos. real nice to watch but defantly not an effective martial art.sorry bro.

  • cmon though you cant judged any martial art unless you have tried it. that was also your point to begin with was it not? i am an aikidoka an it is effective for what it is designed for, as is muay thai or boxing.

  • Somebody's going to have to explain what it's designed for, then. And don't give me that "neutralizing your opponent while causing minimal harm" BS.

    Aikido provides a false sense of security and suggests that the choreography of a fight is predictable and fluid. It isn't. Attackers are going to resist your hold before you're in any position to throw them with aikido techniques. Aikido is based on a false assumption of a retarded attacker.

  • Real Aikido?!?!?!

    C'mon... in REAL LIFE, aikidoka could defeat just a ballet dancer.

    Just imagine:

    "Ultimate Fighting Competition: today.- Aikido Vs Yoga".. Yoga WINS!

  • I love the ignorance ufc breeds.

  • I love the indoctrination of aikido.

    You really think an aikidoka could beat a trained mma fighter?

  • Do you reckon? I think that the principles of aikido are very efficient at what they are designed for. so that your opponent defeats themselves, by instigating the fight.

  • I'm really not seeing how that would work, unless you're talking about the morality of fighting.

    Aikido techniques leave the performer wide open to recounters and strikes, not to mention that no person (trained or untrained) is going to let you manipulate one of their limbs long enough for all those fancy techniques.

    One of these days (read: when I have money to offer as a prize), I intend to issue a general challenge to any aikidoka willing to put his art to the test.

  • "Aikido techniques leave the performer wide open to recounters and strikes"

    i disagree, aikido technics can open to aikidoka a lot of points in the enemy to use atemis, like aikijujutsu do.

  • Two things:

    First, you're assuming that the aikido techniques are possible to effectuate on a fully resistant opponent. I submit that the vast majority are not. You'll get KTFO, or thrown around if you try to prance around your opponent like aikidoka do.

    Second, I regonize that a technique has to be set up and that an opportunity to execute it must be present (which is what you seem to be suggesting), but no attacker, trained or untrained, will leave his limbs hanging out for you to grab.

  • Funny! whenever you want to prove your theory my little toco, I'm here

  • real fight-like, a guy running at mid-speed toward you with his arm fully extended, yeah real dangerous, no shit.

  • I couldnt agree more but thats down to a crap uke not a crap attack. Traditional is a prime example they might as well phone you in advance & tell you what coming. And i have to admit there are some pretty ropey attacks in this clip to. But that said performed properly a shoman attack is very quick and powerful. It should come from nowhare not be telegraphed. But hey everybody learns over time no one can give the perfect shoman straight away just as no one can throw the perfect punch. Takes time

  • OK 1) Real Aikido does not have competitions 2) this is NOT real aikido as derived from the samurai. this is show aikido. REAL aikido can be affective but it does take most of its influence from sword fights in the time of the samurai. Aikido is never practised against a non aikido practitioner as the the "attacker" has to know the ukemi to escape without injury. this is why it looks fake. at full speed and against a non aikido attacker it is very effective

  • get a book ¬¬

  • ????????? I have plenty thanks

  • hes telling the truth using aikido agaisnt someone who isnt an aikidoka just tends to break limbs and joints (ive seen it actually i mean a cop was using aikido against a kid he was actually wrongfully arresting what a fucking surprise and i recognized the cops technique as an easy little aikido technique and the kid didnt go with it and his wrist just snapped

  • There is no such thing as an easy technique there are so many little details that must be in place for it to actualy work. Hence the reason people start say this is crap it dont work and leave. Randori teaches you how important these details are when the guy is skilled & learns from every fall how to undo everything. So we look at it and say whys this not working he just turns out. What detail has been lost. Then we fix it and uke learns new ways to screw it up so we have to rethink.

  • this aikidoka sisis never fight they just dancing around!!!!

  • I guess aikido is great if your opponent just comes at you with his right arm sticking straight out everytime! It's all for show, if you want real combat grappling judo is where it's at, or jiu jitsu, aikido is a joke, that's why steven segal got choked out by judo jean labelle.

  • dude akido is the real deal. this is a akido tournement not a street fight. if u wanna c akido in real life fights not just sparing u went to the rong spot

  • aikido is all about joint manipulation

  • Joint manipulation is a small part of Aikido. The most important part is movement... in synchronisation with your attacker (or training partner).

  • I think aikido is a dangerous martial art because it is intended to grapple and break the bone or bones of another body,but is very essential to defend ourselves againts mobs,kidnaps or hostages....

  • Do some aikido people not wear the hakama?

  • just above 1st kyu ("black belt")

  • Its optional for a black belt to wear a hakama if they want, my sensei lets you wear a hakama if you pass your 3rd kyu grading. its totally up to your instructor wheather and when you wear one :D

  • Aikido is a martial art yes, but it is also a sport & it is also for competition. Great aikido masters do not believe in competiton but trust me, others do. How can i have the wrong idea about aikido when it is a sport i have been doing for 8 years and i am a brown belt :S

    Can i just ask if you actually do aikido? Cos otherwise you shouldn't be tellin me i have the wrong idea! I think its yourself.

  • i have being doing aikido a long time to, aikido was never intended to be a sport. making a martial art a sport takes aways the budo aspect of it. o sensei never wanted it to be a sport..... one of his students (tomiki) left and started tomiki aikido which has sport aspects. tomiki aikido: sport, Aikido: budo

  • Tomiki who added the competition aspect to Aikido believed it necessary through his own training experiences in Judo, where he was taught by the founder Kano.

    To increase accuracy and effectiveness of techniques sport competition is the logical route. There-by removing some of the predictability of attack and forcing the aikidoka to realy think on his feet. Dont think of the "sport" as a game, but as a vital training tool. The next step up in realism would then be real combat.

  • Tomiki didn't leave. He went to Manchuko in the 1930s. But if you check, I think you will find Tomiki Sensei was on the board of Aikikai/Honbu management for decades... up until the 1960s or 1970s I believe. He had to introduce a sport (competition) aspect so the management of Waseda University would allow him to start an Aikido club there. Waseda was Tomiki's alma mater, and he already taught Judo there. So that is how the sport aspect came about.

  • Aikido is not for competition. It's a discipline, a martial art, not a sport. You have wrong idea about Aikido.

  • Its about using your momentum to throw the uke. And if in a competition your partner did not know how to break fall correctly your kata would look shabby. So you wouldn't compete at that level if you didn't know basic aikido. Its okay researching it, but why not try experiencing it. I've been doing it 8 years, since i was 6 and i love it.

  • Aikido competitions are about showing off what you know, its not real fighting as such its basically you showing off your skills with your partner to win. And replying to Thomo1305, the uke is break falling in order to not harm themselves, for example if the 17th technique of the basic kata was put into practice you would break your arm if you did not flip out of it. In a real fight if you were attacked by someone who did not know how to fall properly, all the better...

  • Kata contest right?

  • omg what is with all these comments =\

    is this tigei competion?

    and btw that guy said aikido is not a competion the competion is to do the aikido arts with no flaw and to get into time and to use the least amount of energy to perform an art for aikido.

    and if thsi is not tigei competion then never mind

    ( i think i'm speeling it wrong

  • why does aikido only seem effective in demos? When it's not choreographed (aka real), it looks like teenagers pawing each other in the backseat.

  • Here in lies a problem - at least to the outside looking in. I think the fault lies with uke - the person attacking and taking the break fall. It is tempting to fall before you are made to do so, so that you don't get hurt. Also some attacks look pretty lame - again the responsibility of uke. Problem is - if you were attacked by someone who didn't know how to fall correctly, you would get better feedback of your technique but that person would be hurt - would you want to do it?

  • i agree, the nonviolent aspect of the art is nice but to make it practical you need to have more realistic attacks, no one will run at you trying to grab your shoulder, personally i like contact competitions but aikido is still interesting

  • Yep, but you might be grabbed on the shoulder, you might be grabbed by the arm, might be punched, kicked whatever - unless you are prepared to sacrifice time and effort to learn from such attacks you can't deal with real attacks. You get black belt and all you know is the basics - then you learn the art and make it useful. You could say, well in Judo no one will wrestle you in a fight, in kick boxing..what if someone grapples you - what if, what if....

  • this is shit not aikido

  • How can there be an Aikido competition when in order to execute the style of Aikido you must first have two people, one of which must be executing an offensive maneuver, thus, negating the basis of what Aikido was founded on?

  • aikido is not competition!

  • the song totally goes with the art!!! Love Aikido but Aikido is still not enough to create the perfect fighter.

  • I find it very hard to believe that anyone believes there is such a thing as the "perfect fighter." Nothing is enough to make someone the "perfect fighter." It doesn't exist, anymore than studying every martial art in the world is enough to make you impossible to beat. In the end, it is always the man, not the art, that makes the difference.

  • demonstrations, not competition at all!!