Atlas Shrugs:Ibn Warraq NYC: Defending the West: A Critique

[SinhaHelaya]

What an amazing intellectual. But sadly I don't think he can even set foot in today's Middle East without fearing for his safety.

[philsci1]

With this you can at most confirm my point, the boundaries are very fluid. Still there is definitely an islamic worldview centered around sharia and the code of honor inherited from 7th century; the vast majority of muslims all over the world share many teachings in common situated very 'far' from those of non muslims. Finally there is definitely an ongoing clash of civilizations fuelled mainly by the islamic ideology (which prevent muslims from making the necessary compromises).

[lchamney]

@philsci1 There is no democratic Muslim country that accepts sharia law above secular law. The closest is Indonesia which accepts it in certain family law situations. Therefore, in every country in which Muslims are allowed to vote, sharia law has been shunted aside. Why, then, do we assume that the "Islamic worldview" centers around sharia law?

How do you know which teachings are shared by the world's muslims? Which study are you referencing? Which authority informs this?

[CMTours732]

@lchamney Tell me, which Islamic state or majority Muslim nation would you wish to live in? And how many of them are free? None of the 22 member states of the Arab League are classified as “free”, and all do badly on press freedom and other indicators. The whole idea that the boundaries between east and west are 'fluid' is just bogus, a lie cooked up by Said and his little gang of intellectual hucksters to break down the West's moral and cultural confidence. And they did a cracking job.

[lchamney]

@CMTours732 I lived for four months in Indonesia, which, while neither theocratic, backwater, or Arab, but is a majority Muslim country, and they were some of the best months of my life. In many ways, you just showed Said's point about Orientalists: Generalizing the Muslim east as being not a collection of individuals but of states, using examples, such as the Arab league, and applying them to the whole, and doing so to construct an otherwise undefinable "West" to draw a sense of superiority.

[garybsg]

@lchamney The "West" doesn't need to have a sense of superiority, it is vastly superior to Islamic countries. BTW you wonderful Indonesia is persecuting Christians like every other muslim country and Indonesia slaughtered many Timorese until they broke away. Islam is an a violent intolerant ideology totally inferior to the "West".

[lajungesombre]

@CMTours732 lissen asshole, lets be real, we all watch southpark. u r gonna end up pushin paper for 40 000 a year, your wife is gonna cheat on u n give ur neighbours son a blowjob, and your daughter will be a lil whore. ur son wont give two shits about, and thats pretty much when ull realize that u r bald, overweight, over the hill, and just up the creek without a paddle. so fuck off. noone gives a shit about u or what u think

[philsci1]

The western system of values is far from being above strong (and fully deserved) rational criticism of course. But no honest thinker would ever deny this. The 'decadent' West is way superior to islam for it preserves intact the hope of a better world, something impossible to be achieved in a society where diversity and the freedoms of thought and expression are despised.

[lchamney]

@philsci1 The core issue of Said's "Orientalism" isn't whether western or Oriental civilization is superior, it is the question of whether the boundary between them can be drawn at all. What is "Western Civilization?" If it's the belief that all opinions should be based on sound scientific evidence, then individuals like Bill Maher, who don't believe in the germ theory of disease, are considerably more "Oriental" than Arab doctors. No matter how you define it, there is no clear distinction.

[philsci1]

@lchamney I agree that that the boundary between civilizations are very fluid (incidentally I think that Geert Widers' dream to preserve the 'purity' of western civilization is quixotic). But Said essentially think that there is no real way to make a clear qualitative difference between them. This is pure postmodernism. I'm afraid Rationality points out elsewhere, we can make meaningful differences. Sadly there can be clashes of civilizations when there are striking differences between them...

[lchamney]

@philsci1 What are these "striking differences?" and who are they between? Which civilization does Said, an Arab Christian educated in the West, belong to? Is Saddam Hussein, a secularist nationalist who advocated fro the brutal destruction of the West's Muslim theocratic allies, Kuweit and Saudi Arabia, Western or "Oriental"? Where do you put Rev. Falwell, who believed that politics should be dominated by faith? Postmodernism is the application of rational critique to assumed categories.

[CMTours732]

@lchamney This is a strawman. Nobody who asserts that there are qualitative differences between modern, secular Western society and the theocratic backwaters of Araby thinks that every single individual has to fall into neat categories of East and West.

[lchamney]

@CMTours732 Yet, you've just constructed both East and West as categories that preclude individual distinctions. Western people are not all secular, Eastern people are not all theocratic. The current backlash against abortion and LGBTQ rights in America right now shows how many people in the West are not secular. Similarly, many large-scale democratic movements in Arab countries tend to be secular pushbacks against theocratic dictators supported by the West. Generalizations don't work.

[lchamney]

@CMTours732 Out of curiosity, how do you define backwardness?

[ethicalpervert]

This guy is full of crap. Jinnah was an atheist? Give me a break. Rushdie wannabe

[philsci1]

@ethicalpervert Maybe he had in mind the secularist tendencies of Jinnah (in spite of talking also of retaining the 'islamic values'). But he was certainly not an atheist since he disowned his own daughter for the 'crime' of marrying a Zoroastrian...However this in no way diminish the force of ibn Warraq's argument. More info here:

ht tp : / / ww w . city-journal . or g / 2008 / 18_1_snd-west . h tml

ht tp : / / newhumanist . or g . uk / 473 / islam-and-intellectual-terrori­sm (remove spaces)

[lchamney]

I can't help but feel that his critique doesn't properly address Said's book. Orientalism isn't anti-West any more than atheism is anti-God, you can't criticize something that you don't believe exists. Orientalism is about the constructed categories of both East and West, and how we've come to understand "cultures" in terms of representatives selected specifically to emphasize difference. I like Ibn Warruq; it's unfortunate that such a brave writer would produce such a bad book.

[philsci1]

@lchamney 'Orientalism' is postmodernist and ibn Warraq points clearly that the western culture is definitely superior. At least for the fact that the western civilization has the necessary feedback mechanisms which to lead to improvements eventually, even if this imply non-trivial changes (something absent in many other cultures, islam included)...See also the links in the other post of mine here.

[CMTours732]

@lchamney Maybe you should back up your bags and go live in a majority Muslim nation, or perhaps an Islamic state. Then you can reacquaint yourself with the reality that there is a huge difference between the culture and societies of the modern Western world and those of backward Araby. 

[lajungesombre]

@CMTours732 lol backward araby? maybe u shud suck a big dick n realize that 1. u arent that smart 2. no one will ever really give a shit about ur opinion 3. u r going to die a loser, middle class, overweight and bald 4. u might as well just kill urself

[CMTours732]

@lajungesombre LMAO, didn't realize it was humanly possible to pack that much ad hominem into one youtube response, but okay! Honestly, I needed a laugh. That was great.

[lajungesombre]

@CMTours732 lol no probs. i dont really mean what i said. but i said it to remind you that, dude, chill out. really chill out. there are tons of muslims out there, tons of islamic literature, and its just dumb to talk about all of it unless u really know all of it. im not saying that we shudnt critique wats goin on, but that we shud do it prudently and rationally. i do hope u have a great life (obviously!) :-)

[moscosmos1989]

@lchamney Couldn't agree with you more. This is coming from an ex-muslim

[naamlas]

im sorry, i just dont see how this is a criticism of edward said's, orientalism.

[lashkaretoiba]

His name is Ibn Warraq!

His name is Ibn Warraq!

His name is Ibn Warraq!

Not Robert Paulson..

[BolnoyBratchny]

Muslims will pay with their blood.

[hexag1]

hes pakistani. where was this video made?

[besmb2105]

Where does he come from?

[TheSaidi]

Enjoy your fame Mr. Ibn Warraq while it lasts.

[muhammadsucksmycock1]

Unfortunately exposing evil Islam is a duty not a pleasure.....the world must stand up to evil Islam ...remember truth always prevail over evil Islam...always!

[333Israel]

The godfather of the modern Secularism.

[cptoronto06]

i love this man. a true genius

[shanejacobus]

I adore this man. Thanks for uploading atlasshrugs2000.

[IceneBoudicca]

"UN Development Programme 2003: total number of books translated into Arabic in the last 1,000 years is fewer than those translated in Spain in the last year.,," Wow!! Poor devils across the Arab world don't get a chance to see how the other half live, love and learn. Ibn Warraq is a very understated, erudite man, and a most interesting writer.

[LaterlaterMD]

Description and tags are misleading. There isn't a word passed about Edward Saids' work "Orientalism" in the entirety of these edited clips. Only what seems to have been the higher points and better moments of the discussion.

[Winston2004]

i just ordered the book

[TAPS711]

Good video.