En réalité l'Alsace-Moselle c'est le territoire en France où on a un climat continental, donc il fait certes très froid en hiver mais à partir du printemps il fait beau et chaud, et même très chaud en été. C'est souvent chez nous qu'il y a les températures les plus hautes en juillet. Donc c'est faux de dire qu'on "met encore le chauffage au mois de mai" ou qu'on trouve "qu'il fait chaud à partir de 15°".
Pour tout dire l'Alsace est l'Alsace est la Moselle est Lorraine... nNe mélangeons pas les torchons et les alsaciens... (ne prend pas sa au mot quoique....)
On aurait pu intituler cette vidéo : "Tu es Alsacien ou Mosellan si" ! ^^ Je suis originaire de Moselle et j'y vis. Eh bien, nous avons exactement les mêmes expressions que les Alsaciens, comme montré dans cette vidéo ! Et deux jours fériés en plus également ! Votre belle région et notre beau département sont si proches ! Vive l'Alsace et la Lorraine (Moselle en particulier ^^) et le Grand Est Français !
@57Bubudu57 d accord avec toi je suis de thionville et je vis en Alsace depuis un an, l’accent n'est pas le même mais on se comprend très bien et ça en devient marrant
Oh mon dieu !!! je suis tombé dessus par hasard, et qu'ai je bien rigoler... Etant Mosellan, et ayant conserver quelques 'défauts' linguistique force d'écouter cette grand mère Alsacienne avec le fameux mélange Platt et Allemand, je me suis rappelé de franches rigolades sur le thème de nos accents avec de vieux compagnons de vacances lorsque j'étais plus jeune.
A prendre au second degré pour ceux qui auraient perdus quelques neurones ....
Ce qui est certain c'est que l'état francais maiprise les peuples dit minoritaires. Comment peut il ignorer l'existance d'un Pays Basque dont le peuple est le plus ancien d'Europe, que ni Charlemagne ni les romains ni les sarazins n'ont réussi à vaincre . Vive l'Europe des Régions Vive l'euskadi! Gora Euskal Herria askatuta!!! Gora Euskal gudaria!!! Défendez votre langue
@TrueSoldierJay Non, les français (= l'Etat francophile à Paris) la qualifie comme "dialecte". La vérité: alsacien est allemand. Evidemment l'allemand parlé à Strassburg est différent de la langue parlée à Berlin, mais c'est incontestablement d'allemand. La France (= Sarkozy et ses troupes) nie ce fait parce qu'elle a peur d'admettre que l'Alsace est d'origine tout à fait allemand.
Si l'Etat français était noble, ils y feraient mieux de permettre un bilinguisme franco-allemand en Alsace et en Lorraine. La loie actuelle est seulement là pour freiner le rayonnement de l'allemand en Alsace. "Oh alsacien c'est QU'Un DIALECTE" ... oh well, the European Union still promotes French imperialism ... :-|
@TrueSoldierJay Stimmt. Manche schon, andere nicht. Das ist aber fast vollständig zwangsläufig geschehen. Die Franzosen haben was dieses Thema angeht keine Manieren. Und das Schlimmste ist, (so gut wie) niemand spricht darüber. Aber wenn man einen Blick auf die Nachnamen der Elsässer wirft... wer würde sich nicht fragen, wo denn seine/ihre Wurzeln liegen?
@Lucicluc Je ne suis pas d'accord, l'Alsace n'est pas franco-allemande mais rhénane. La bilinguisme doit être alsacien/français et pas d'allemand, surtout pas de hochdeutsch !
@MekItBurn L'alsace a toujours été GERMANOphone ... mais excusez-moi, je savais .. pardon , tout le monde sait que pas mal de francophones sont des impérialistes de langue françaises. Tous les noms de village alsaciens sont allemands. On peut le voir encore aujourd'hui en français (Eschwiller, Detwiller, Forbach) et on a changé quelques noms comme Lützelstein et Schlettstadt. Consultez vos livres d'histoire, svp. ELSASS = DEUTSCH !
@Lucicluc Tu fais semblant de ne pas comprendre ce que je dis et c'est dommage... Pas d'impérialisme de langue française mais pas d'impérialisme de langue allemande non plus !!!
Tu parles de livre d'histoire ? Et bien regardes comment faisaient les Alsaciens en 1945 pour découvrir les Allemands qui s'étaient installés pendant le guerre... ils se pointaient à ta porte avec un parapluie et demandait ce que c'était ("wàs esch dos", pas "was ist das"), les Allemands répondaient "ein regenschaurm
@MekItBurn alors que les Alsaciens répondaient "à paraplui".
ELSASS = ELSASS = Elsasserditch mais sûrement pas Deutsch !!! Les noms de village sont alémaniques, plus précisément alsaciens, pas d'impérialisme allemand merci.
@MekItBurn quel simplisme ... donc parisien ce n'est pas un dialecte français, occitan ce n'est pas un dialecte français, chti ce n'est pas un dialecte français selon vous??? Elsässisch est un dialecte ALLEMAND ... tout à fait à 100 %. Je répète: je sais que dire la vérité n'est pas à la mode en France (plus particulièrement à Paris)
@Lucicluc On est bien d'accord que l'Elsassich est un dialecte alémanique mais pas de l'allemand !!
Le hochdeutsch n'a rien à faire en Alsace, d'ailleurs les Allemands ou les Suisses parlent encore régulièrement des dialectes locaux plutôt que la langue officielle, chose de plus en rare en France on peut remercier le jacobinisme parisien...
@MekItBurn Sans le savoir, tu a expliqué ce que j'ai essayé à expliquer... Oui, les germanophones en général (que ce soient des allemands, des autrichiens, des suisses, des Liechtensteinois des Luxembourgois ou des belges ... ils parlent presque tous des dialectes. Cela vaut aussi pour L'Elsass. C'est un dialecte ALLEMAND. Les différences entre les dialectes au sein d'Allemagne ne sont pas plus grandes que le dialecte de l'Elsass!
@MekItBurn le désinformation "ce n'est pas d'allemand, c'est d'alsacien" créé par l'Etat francofile à Paris a seulement pour but de nier les racines de l'Alsace. Moi je ne dirais pas qu'il n' existe aucun un lien entre l'Elsass et la France, mais quant à la langue ... L'Elsass a toujours été germanophone. En France, on ne veut simplement pas entendre des choses comme "c'est allemand" ... ça doit être "alsacien", insistant que c'est à 100% français. C'est absurde !
@Lucicluc Et moi je ne plaide pas pour une annexation à l'Allemagne. Pour cela, il est trop tard vu que le processus de francisation imposée après 1918 et de nouveau après 1945 est déjà trop avancé. Apparemment comme toi, je plaide pour une Alsace indépendante. Mais pas avec un bilinguisme "français et elsässisch" mais français et allemand. Parce que, je répèté ... Elsässisch est un dialecte allemand.
"L'alsacien est un dialecte allemand au meme titre que le dialecte de Bade ou du Rheinland "
(livre: Alsation acts of identity, language use) faites un peu des recherches sur Google. De nouveau: croyez pas aux mensonges crée par une France peu noble !!!
@Lucicluc Va chier avec tes attaques gratuites, je me considère Alsacien avant d'être Français, la France est peu noble mais l'Allemagne n'est pas mieux !
*Ironie switched on* oh excusez-moi , que les vrais alsaciens utilisent l'allemand comme deuxième langue ... c'est évidemment un attrape-nigaud ! Que les pages Wiki parlent tous - excepté la page francophone, évidemment ;-))) d'un bilinguisme et d'un héritage culturel franco-allemand ... ce sont des mensonges ! M'en voulez pas, je suis tellement bête !! L'Alsace est "francique !"
Strasbourg Mayor Daniel Blumenthal also wrote a good book called "Alsace-Lorraine; a study of the relations of the two provinces to France and to Germany" in 917 at archive,org. That also is a negative view of the German Empire
Also the German empire refused to make them a German state and didn't give them a Constitution until 1911 and sent in German settlers and gave all important jobs to Germans...did not please the Alsatians.
The main German arguement for Alsace being rightfully part of Germany was;
1. That they spoke a Germanic dialect
2. they had been part of the Holy Roman Empire.
But Holland had been part of the Holy Roman Empire and also speaks a Germanic dialect. ..but neither the Dutch nor the Swiss Germans have ever wanted to be part of Germany
And from what I have read of Luxembourg history in WW1 & WW2.Luxborg never wanted to be part of Germany but both Kaiser and Hitler wanted Luxborg
It is rather short-viewed to say that Alsatians want to belong to France. Some were / are French-oriented, others German. What annoys me is the linguistic policy of France. Now, when it is almost too late ... they act AS IF they respect the Alsatian identity: they allow some "Alsatian-German plaques" next to the French road signs but it is forbidden to communicate in German or if you will "Alsatian" with the local authorities.
There is a good book at archive,org from 1918 called "Linguistic Oppression in the German Empire" by Ernest Barker where he discusses in detail the Germanization efforts not only in Alsace but also in Poland and Northern Schleswig.
Part of the famous Zabern affair" with Lt. Baron Von Forstner was caused because he went into an Alsatian restaurant and saw the French word for chicken on the menu instead of it in German...and he went into a rage ...he also called Alsatians "Wackes"
Now from what I hear most of the young people don't speak Alsatian and most of the population usually speaks in French
The French expelled the German settlers after WW1 with some 4 part categorization system. You could say that the French were trying to "counter" the German empire's efforts to germanize them
Many of the famous French Generals in the Napoleonic war were Alsatians and the Marsellaise was written in Strasbourg. The German army always questioned their loyalty
There is a book called "The Zabern Affair, 1913-1914" by Richard Mackey from 1991. It was probably an overblown affair at the time but it did cause a big scandal in Germany that even involved the Kaiser,Crown Prince,and Chancellor Bethmann Hollweg. Even Germans were outraged about the treatment of the lame cobbler by Lt. Forstner who had offered 10 marks to anyone who used his sword on a "Wacke"
Did you know that saying "Bon Jour" in Alsace during WW1 was a fine of 5 marks?
There was some sort of "independent Alsace" briefly declared. But even Wetterle and Blumenthal in their books dismissed the idea of an independent Alsace because they both said that if it was independent France and Germany would always be attempting to influence it's affairs.
Some people compare Alsace with Brittany...French in spirit but very different from the rest of France also.
What do public opinion poles in Alsace currently say about "Alsatian Indepedence"?
I used google "translate" to read some of that UNSERLAND website...under their article "A brief history of the Alsatian flag"..they say that Alsace had autonomy in 1911...that's not true.
In the upper German Imperial house called the "Bundesrat" each German state had a certain number of votes...Prussia had 17.Alsace had 2 or 3. But Alsace's votes could not count if the Alsatian vote would give Prussia a majority...this was because the Kaiser controlled the Alsatian vote
Why was Alsace made just a "Reichsland" territory instead of a 26th German state in the German empire in 1871? ...because the other 25 German states were fighting over Alsace's votes in the Bundesrat. So if Alsace were attached to Baden(as the Nazis did) that would give more power to Baden.
So their choice was 1. Make Alsace a 26th German state(a Republic because Alsatians didn't like monarchy) or 2. Attach it to Prussia...or 3. Make it part of the empire and not a state.
They chose option 3 as the least problematic...but it didn't please the Alsatians because that meant that they were ruled from Berlin by the Kaiser and his "Staathalter" instead of being ruled locally from Strasbourg.
IMHO...they should have made Alsace a 26th state with a Constitution and let it be a Republic like Bremen, Lubeck and Hamburg.
But the Hohenzollerns and other German kings, Gr.Dukes and Dukes didn't really want a "liberal republic" living in the German Reich.
And....if Alsace had been made a 26th German state in the German Empire...they could have and would have dismantled all efforts to germanize Alsace-Lorraine...they also could have altered the conscription laws for the army...since each state controlled its own army in peacetime...they could have also voided out the Lese Majestat laws regarding free press and free speech.
That simply would never have been acceptable to the Kaiser...and his son the Crown Prince was even worse.
I think you are not getting what I'm trying to say. Before 1871 or let's say 1918 ... being part of France DIDN't mean you were forced to identify yourself as a French speaker. After 1918 the French launched a massive anti-German campaign and forbade any use of German. Still, the Alsatians stuck to their German language and refused the French culture. Only after 1945 (the French should establish a statue for Hitler !) the Alsatians accepted French cultural domination
I did acknowledge that the French changed their attitude about Alsace after WW1...mainly to counter-act the German Empire's efforts at germanizing Alsace.
"Alsatians stuck to their German language" ...I think you meant to say "Germanic language" because Alsatian is not the same as German..it is a patois.
After two terrible German invasions and destruction in 1914 and 1940, you can't really blame the French for being a little anti-German.
So I will take your French idiot 2 weights - 2 mesures logic as an example to show you how goofy it is. In regions in France they speak occitan, lyonnais or gallon. Though they all belong to the French dialects, SO French language has nothing to seek there! Okay then, let's tear France and this stupid crap and give each region ONLY the local dialect. Really, anyone with linguistic knowledge will tell you: Alsation is as German as any other German dialect.
@EdwardRommel alsatian is linguistically a german dialect! before 1870 the term "alsatian" was never used for the language, only german! another heritage of french nationalism...two terrible german invasions? lol! the french didnt want WW1 no? it wasn't the french who declared WW2 on germany? and only and always with the same old goal to recreate the old european balance with france dominating the continent...and thereby weaken or destroy germany! blame the french, they started the ennemyship!
@nightwish1000 Wetterle called the Alsatian language a "patois"...I have seen both German and Alsatian..the are very similar but not identical. Luxembourgese is similar to German but the Luxembourgese were always pro-french and anti-german.
Did you know that if the French had offered to be neutral in WW1, the German govt would have demanded that German troops occupy Toul, Verdun and Briey fortresses....that's why Germany got blamed for WW1...rightfully so. They started both WW1 and WW2.
@EdwardRommel sorry, but a priest doing french war propaganda is no reference here! as i told you, alsatian was always called german before 1871! alsatian is based on german grammar like luxembourgish, it's a question of linguistics not of politics! "the french had offered to be neutral"? lol without the french there wouldn't have been a world war! they isolated germany by (secret) pacts with russia, italy and gb and wanted the war! its acknowledged today that germany isnt to blame for WW1 alone
@nightwish1000 Do some research....WHO started the alliance system?....Germany..
In 1878 Germany made an alliance with Austria-Hungary. In 1881 Germany made an alliance with Italy..it was called the Triple Alliance.
So poor little france with 40 million people is faced with 65million Germans in the north...and 50 million Italians on her southeast border...plus she faces the manpower of Austria...another 50 million...that's 165 million people against just 40 million people..
@EdwardRommel seems you understand nothing of bismarcks alliance system! it was to keep peace in europe against a furious france! the french untertermined the german pact with italy by doing a secret one which would keep italy out in case of war with germany! there the french will of doing war becomes clear! furthermore it was more necessary for germany to keep alliances as being surounded by all great powers of the time!
@EdwardRommel lol what did russian foreign minister sasanow say in 1913:" the peace loving german emperor is our garant that we have to find the start of war by ourselves", what did former french foreign minister pichon say in 1915: "there would be no war if delcassé ( french foreign affairs) hadn't agitated the russians against the germans"...just two quotas which proof russian and french official volunty to start a war! germans are masters in facing facts, maybe thats why we are the most liked
@nightwish1000 In 1914 Europe was out of balance because Germans-Austrians-Hungarians ruled Slavs in Poland, Czec, slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-herzegovina,and Ruthenia.....but Slavs ruled no Germans.
Slavs like Italians in1866 and like Germans in1871..wanted their own states..they wanted their freedom.
But instead of seeing the trend for national freedom, the Austrians annexed even more Slavs in Bosnia and therey violated the Treaty of Berlin of 1878...and your Germany supported it
@EdwardRommel the trend for national freedom! yes! this was the early 20th century not some 68 revolution! ask your peace-loving frenchies why they annexed alsace-lorraine although they wanted their own state! btw serbia hasn't been part of austria-hungary which has always been a state of different nations, so the parallels you draw between them and italy and germany are nonsense!
@nightwish1000 Even your Kaiser Wilelm II upon seeing the conciliatory Serbian response to the Austrian Ultimatum said "now all grounds for war disappear"...yet he refused to force austria to take the Austrian Ultimatum to the Hague Tribunal...and they refused a conference in London.
Even Hitler later said he would never start a war over just an assasination.
Why did Germany refuse all efforts at mediation in 1914?...because the German govt. wanted to break up the Franco-Russian alliance.
@EdwardRommel as you state correctly, it was kaiser wilhelm who was the one who tried to intervene, and he was quite the only one! where were the french and russian peace efforts during the crisis of july? nothing, because they wanted the great war like several germans! by the way it was russia which started its general mobilization before germany and the serbs did it before austria! that is why all are to blame for the outbreak, not without mentioning britains interests!
@nightwish1000 The response to mobilization is mobilazation...not a declaration of war.
Read "Evidence in the Case" by James M. Beck at archive,org...he was a Swiss German american lawyer wo analyzed WW1 from a legal argument...he found Germany guilty.
Serbia had accepted 8 of the 10 harsh demands...and Russia and Serbia requested that the 2 remaining demands be adjudicated by the hague Tribunal. Germany refused. Britain proposed a 4 power ambassador conference in London...Germany refused
@EdwardRommel a mobilisation against a neighbouring country is a provocation showing willingness of war! then germany had to attack rather than waiting for being attacked from both sides! before germany tried to limit the war on austria and serbia! it didn't attack serbia, austria did, with german approval, so nonsense to blame germany for starting the war! the other great powers saw this crisis rather as an opportunity to finish with the germans! read niall ferguson or richard keegan!
@nightwish1000 ............OR....you could have just said "yeah...the Russians and Serbians are right...let's just take this diplomatic mess to a neutral 3rd party like the Hague Tribunal to adjudicate."
Problem solved....no WW1......No Versailles Treaty....NO LOSS OF ALSACE-LORRAINE....no inflation of 1923...no Depression.....no rise of the NSDAP....no Nuremberg Laws.....no bombed out German cities, no holocaust...
So as a German...don't blame Hitler...blame Kaiser Wilhelm II.
@EdwardRommel your causal sequence ist sweet but not historical! you could also say without germany unity...no concurrence...no WW1! the versailles treaty is one of the main reasons for hitler, thats what the allies, esp. france, are to blame for! nobody forced them to do such an unhuman treaty, to annex alsace-lorraine, to suck germany out, to bomb the cities while doing nothing against the holocaust!
@nightwish1000 Sadly today Germany is only 65% of the size it was in 1914 and Germans have been expelled from Poland and Sudetenland.
But the Poles,Alsatians and Danes got their freedom.
If only you Germans could have seen the imbalance in Europe and not used such harsh measures for Germanization of your minorities...you might not be "just 65% of your 1914 size"..and you might still posess Alsace-Lorraine
But you Germans finally now have a democratic republic...no Kaisers..no dictators
@EdwardRommel you know we germans don't care about lost land, besides a bunch of extremists! the german idea is far beyond some acres of land! we are back on stage, the most powerful european country and at the same time the country which learned most of its dark years. that is what we are proud of and that is why we are admired like never before!
@nightwish1000 You Germans don't care NOW...but uncle Adolf sure did care about Posen and West Prussia...even thouhg Germans ruled Slavs in Prague....so a few Germans were still ruled in Poland....you Germans ruled Slavs in Prague...that's a fair trade...
But Oncle Adolf didn't look at it that way...no he was willing to set Europe on fire...
Read up on the "Hague Peace Convention" of 1899 and 1907 at archive,org ...it was proposed by the Russian Czar Nicholas II.
@EdwardRommel was adolf your oncle? famous relatives you got! why don't you tell us about the miserable life of the german minority in poland after WW1 and their hatred against all german? it's the typical american black and white point of view, but as you are living near hollywood i have to forgive you...
Also you have to consider that Alsace could not really have been "frenchified" if they didn't really want to be "frenchified" because the Germans were never able to Germanize Poland from 1795 to 1918 and they tried very hard with strong measures of linguistic oppression in the German Empire.
Even the Germanic Danes of Northern Schleswig refused to become Germans. Prussians basically rubbed people the wrong way..even other Germans like Bavarians didn't like Prussians.
Ask anyone in Germany who speaks dialect, Kölsch, Schwäbisch, Berlinerisch, ... they will all say they speak German. Well, so do Alsatians. But Frenchmen (especially outside Alsace) don't like the sound of that so they re-invented the facts in saying that "it is Alsatian". Someone with apparent historical baggage like you buying that shit surprises me. Perhaps you have only consulted one-sided (French) versions. Alsatian IS German. But it is politically incorrect to say that
An interesting thing about German people's attitude towards Alsatians is as Mekitburn alluded to...the treatment of Alsatian soldiers in the German army in WW1 and in WW2. The German officials did not trust Alsatian soldiers with sensitive information and did not want them fighting the French in WW1 or WW2 because of the risk of desertian. And many Alsatian soldiers joined the French Foreign Legion before WW1...even though it often meant they could never ever return to Alsace.
I am astonished by your statement "it is not German, it is a patois". That would also mean that all the different dialects within the English language are NOT English? In saying that you just implicitly follow the French nonsense (lies invented in their own interest of course) about Elsass. The language spoken in neighbouring Rheinland and Baden is 90% the same. German language differs just about anywhere over the German-speaking territory.
In Wetterle's book "Behind the Scenes in the reichstag" he mentions a large party at the Reichstag in 1910 and that he had gotten many Alsatian vinyards to donate free wine to this party...the Germans happily drank 400 bottles..but would not make any orders for Alsatian wine....they preferred to buy German wine from the Rhineland.
German Empire also had some strict "passport" laws that prevented Alsatians who had fled to France from visiting relatives in Alsace.
Wikipedia about Alsatian language: Not readily intelligible to speakers of standard German, Alsatian is closely related to other nearby Alemannic dialects, such as Swiss German, Swabian, and Badisch.
This shit about "not German, but Alsatian" is POLITICAL ... doesn't that ring any bells? Merely political... Why do all Alsatians who write German (oh sorry, Alsatian !) write in standard German? Because it is NOT their language? lol
Also keep in mind that a common language does not necessarily mean union...or English speaking Americans would not have rebelled against England.
The Flemish of Belgium do not want union with Holland because of religious differences.
I suspect the Alsatians were like the Swiss Germans in that they did not want to be part of Germany because of different attitudes towards personal liberty...finally since 1945 Germany has a free Govt. ..but it's too late now.
And something more: the French state refuses to support any local language culture WHEN it is also the language of a neighbouring country. As German is a very important language in Europa with the largest number of native speakers, the French state is afraid of the "Alsatian affair", but as they don't want too much negative publicity either, they do allow "Alsatian" language signs, but any other official use is strictly forbidden. Hypocritical arses !
Ethnic rivalry in Europe in general is much stronger than in the USA.
When I read "Linguistic Oppression in the German Empire" by Barker at archive,org I was amazed the Polish language would be banned in schools, street signs, cemetaries, menus.
In California where I live many of the restaurants have Spanish names like "Del Taco", "El Torrito", "El Pollo Loco"....we have entire areas that have Vietnamese business signs....Korea town, China town, etc.
Bismarck never wanted Alsace-Lorraine to be annexed to Germany but Moltke and the German military wanted it for a defensive area.
August Bebel and the SPD party in Germany did not want Alsace to be annexed to Germany because they knew France would want it back and they felt that Germany would have to maintain an expensive large army to retain Alsace.
The Germans had a large army fortresse at Metz and at Strasbourg and it did sour Franco-German relations for years.
German Foreign Minister Von Jagow famously commented in 1913 "When I am in Alsace I feel like I am in a foreign country".
Kaiser Wilhelm II became very angry when he visited Mulhausen in 1911 and was greeted with many French flags(which were illegal under German law).
Why would the people of Colmar elect Wetterle to the Reichstag if they knew he was pro-French? Why would the people of Strasbourg elect Blumenthal as mayor in 1906 if they knew he was pro-French?
So I am firmly convinced Alsace was not happy in the German Empire and wanted out...but as to "Did Alsace want to be part of France or to be Independent"...that I am not so sure of.
I would like to see a current unbiased poll on what Alsatians say about independence or to remain part of France. In the US we have public opinion polls all the time...so I would assume there are also some public opinion polls on current Alsatian attitudes towards independence. and France.
@EdwardRommel 30 years after being part of germany, the alsatians were in a vast majority pro-german! you just have to compare the reichstag election results over the first 30 years and you will see that partys who were rather in favour of being seperated from germany, continuosly lost! you can't draw a peoples opinion from one or two biographies! there were probably also some french-speaking alsatians who were happy with the nazis!
@nightwish1000 I don't base my opinion solely on Blumental and Wetterle's books. Consider this.
1. In 1871 in Bordeaux the Alstain delegation to the French parliament read a protest to the annexation.
2. in 1874 in Berlin the Alsatian delegation to the German parliamnet
about 600000 French fled from alsace and about 600000 German settlers moved in....so in a little country of 1.5 million people that will radically alter the demograpic makeup of Alsace...and there was Germanization efforts
@EdwardRommel there were germanization efforts which reached never the impact of the francisation afterwards! you are talking here about the first years when alsatians were french socialised! 25 years later, the new generations felt german! just have a look at the development of the elections! in germany after 1871 alsatians could openly speak for independence, in france after WW1 they were arrested or executed if they did so...get your facts str8, individual cases don't reflect the society
Colmar mayor Daniel Blumenthal was sentenced to death 8 times by the Kaiser's Govt. and had to flee from Alsace.
Blumenthal is a German name and yet he was very pro-French. So apparently it was not just the Alsatians with French sounding names who opposed the German Imperial Govt.
I think Emil Abbe Wetterle is also a German name...so just because someone has a German ethnic background didn't mean they liked Germany.
Why would the Alsatians elect men in 1874 who all oposed the annexation to Germany? It was free and open elections for Reichstag seats so I am definately inclined to believe that most Alsacians preferred to be part of France rather than part of Germany because they were used to democratic institutions and Germany was very autocratic in 2nd Reich
The situation was complicated by Germany sending in hundreds of thousands of German settlers.that's why France didn't want a plebiscite
@EdwardRommel Basically I tend to agree with what you're saying BUT ... I don't hear you mentioning the Alsatians' discontent after 1919 and 1945 ... when linguistic repression was taking place by the French state. They didn't want to belong to France, they wanted an independant Alsatian state.
The French state has always been trying to deceive people and foreign countries by claiming "Alsatians don't speak German, they speak Alsatian".
The French did change their policy. Before 1870 they never tried to force the French language upon Alsace...that's why Alsace was still speaking Alsatian after 200 years of French rule.
The French did apparently take a different attitude after WW1 but you have to remember that the Germans had tried very hard to Germanize Alsace. Only German could be taught in schools, on cemetery tombstones, on restaurant menus, on business signs, street signs, public meetings, etc.
@EdwardRommel This "protestation" of 1874 was a masquerade. These deputies were elected by a minority of the population (if I remember well 100000 on 600000 only voted), and these 100000 were principally french or frenchified peoples. Read the book by Pierri Zind for a good view on the topic.
@Elsass79 ...hmm..but here's the problem with your analysis. Both the French empire and the German Empire had universal suffrage for all males 25 years old and older.
So the Alsatian reps who protested in Bordeaux in 1871 represented the Alsatian people. And the newly elected Alsatian reps to the German Reichstag in 1874 also represented the Alsatian people
Why did the Alsatian people keep electing men like Blumenthal and Abbe Wetterle to their state and Federal parliaments and as mayors?
@Elsass79 About 500,000 "frenchified peoples" left Alsace for France in the 1870 and 1880's. And at the same time about 500,000 German settlers moved into Alsace. So of course that could change the demographics of a province with only 1.5 million people.
Why would Alsatians not vote in a German empire election? maybe a protest to the annexation? So if voter turnout was low it was most likely low amoung the pro-French population and not low amoung the pro-German population.
@EdwardRommel Not 500000 left. Actually 387000 were already in France. Then ca. 150000 opted for France (as I wrote they were mainly civil servants who would obtain a lot of advantages in leaving), but on these 150000 only 1/3 actually left.
This is all a complicated question. I also have - though I am an Alsatian - difficulties in understanding this time. If you can read French, I could scan you some pages from one book on this topic of "protestation".
@Elsass79 Check out a website called archive,org. It has some good books regarding the Alsace question written in English, French and German that are pro-French and pro-German.
1. Alsace-Lorraine under German Rule by Hazen(1917)
2. Alsace-Lorraine: A study of the relations of the two provinces to France and Germany by Blumenthal(1917)
3. The question of Alsace and Lorraine: lecture given at Aeolian Hall.(1917)
4. Behind the Scenes in the Reichstag by Abbe Wetterle (1918)
@Elsass79 I can't read French or German and as an American it would be very arrogant of me to tell an Alsatian how Alsatians felt about German or French rule. I have always been a Germanophile and student of WW1.
But I also wanted to know more about the Versailles Treaty and why it gave Alsace-Lorraine back to France and why US President Wilson included it in one of his 14 points. It was a devisive issue amoung the allies in WW1. France insisted upon its return.
@Elsass79 Also read "Linquistic oppression in the German Empire" and "The submerged nationalities of the German Empire" by Ernest Barker from 1918 and 1915 at archive,org.
The German empire forbid any French words(or Polish or Danish) on restaurant menus, business signs, street names, tombstones, only German in much of school instruction and official business, only German in public meetings.
The Alsatians still spoke Alsatian in 1871 so there was no linguistic oppression before then.
@EdwardRommel Though there was an attempt to re-germanise Alsace in 1871-1918, as the province is ethnically german, we cannot really talk of oppression. French was tolerated in French speaking area (Lorraine and Alsace specific locations). Alsatian still spoke their dialect before 1871, but a lot could already hardly write it or read it due to a (forced) lack of education in German.
@Elsass79 Yes the Germans definately tried to Germanize Alsace. In 1913 Kaiser wilhelm II visited Mulhouse and was greeted with French flags on people's balconies. Under German law , the French flag was illegal
Germany had "Lese Majestat" laws that could put you in prison for months or even years for disrespecting the Hohenzollerns. That's why Lieutenant Von Forstner attacked that lame cobbler for laughing at him because that implied that he was laughing at the uniform..at Germany and Kaiser
@EdwardRommel My opinion is that this has no meaning to "germanise" something which is already german by essence. So yes, the German Empire tried to delete the spurs of previous French presence, but that was actually a "go back to sources". About these French flags episode from 1913, what is your source?
@Elsass79 The French Govt in 1870-1914 years was secular and that turned off some Alsatians who are mainly Catholic. But despite that fact Catholic Alsatians like Abbe Emil Wetterle did not want to join the CDU(center party) because it was supporting Prussian domination of Germany and Alsace. His 1918 book "Behind the Scenes in the Reichstag" covers 1898 to 1914 when he represented Colmar in the Reichstag.
I think Alsatians felt like second class citizens in the German empire.
@EdwardRommel It is actually the case, they were second class citizens, because prussian administration didn't trust some of them. Alsatians had the same obligations, but not the same rights as other Germans. That was perhaps the biggest mistake of Germany. But this was changing, with the Constitution of 1911 for instance. And just before the armistice, there was negotiation in order that Elsass-Lothringen became a Bundesland like the other ones. But it was unfortunately too late.
@Elsass79 the 1911 Constitution was rejected by the Alsatian delegates in the Reichstag because it didn't give any real voting rights to Alsace in the upper German house(Bundesrat). They had 3 votes but those votes could not be counted if it would give Prussia a majority in the Bundesrat because the Kaiser appointed the Alsatian reps to the Bundesrat.
The German empire had an almost fuedalistic Govt. where the upper house was controlled by the Kings, Grand dukes, and dukes.
I agree all in all from my limited obervation living in alsce.. alsace really is a germantic type of culture and people in essence!! Edward just go there and actually live there and date someone from there, talk to old village people there then you will know. Even the way the alsacians think is slightly dfiffrent from the french(my bad, generalizing). Alsacians are very reserved unlike the southern french but once you become friends with them they never forget u.
@EdwardRommel By the way, that is very surprising to see an American so interested, and knowing well about such a subject. Are you from German origin?
@Elsass79 I think Germany should have simply accepted Alsace as a 26th German state and it could have been assimilated into Germany. But instead they really treated Alsace like a conquered province. Kaiser Wilhelm II in 1912 threatened to tear up the 1911 Constitution and annex Alsace to Prussia "if things continue the way they are"
For a people used to democratic representation to go into a system like Prussia would have been a very difficult adjustment.
@EdwardRommel Yes, that should have done Germany. Probably the Alsatian culture and heritage would be in much better health than under the present French rule. Do you know that still today, it is forbidden to have newspapers entirely in German in Alsace? We also have no radio, no TV in our language. Only French has the right to exist !
@Elsass79 The Alsatians did have representation in the Reichstag...but the Reichstag had no power....other than approving budgets(which could be extended)
In the upper German house, the Bundesrat, Alsace had its apportioned 3 votes out of about 50 votes. But Prussia controlled who was sent to the Bundesrat by Alsace and also Prussia controlled how they voted. The members of the Bundesrat had to vote as a block per state and had to follow instructions from the respective rulers of each state.
@Elsass79 So if you compared Alsace under French rule with Alsace under German rule, the Alsatians did have representation in the French Parliament and the French Parliament could initiate legislation and it could amend the French Constitution when needed.
I would aree with you that in some respects Alsace had autonomy under the German Empire but it was only at the whim and fancy of the German Kaisers. It cycled between coercian and conciliation. Same thing with the Poles in Prussia.
@EdwardRommel I think Elsass should be united to geramny as a "land" french government suck your rights! french gov. take all decisions at Paris. Germany is a federal state so it will better for us! I'm born at Strasbourg, but I grew at Saverne, Saverne was the place of a lot of troubles (citizen vs army) when we was under the rule of the prussian empire, anyway every alsatian should ask to himslef which country (between FR and DE) did most improvements! and which actualy destroy our identity!
In English we have a saying "absence makes the heart grow fonder".
Of course the Alsatian people were a german speaking people..but sadly Germany did not treat them like a 26th German state in the 2nd Reich....the rest is sad history.
93 years without Prussian or German rule has indeed made the Alsatian heart grow fonder!
I want to go to Zabern and visit the famous sites of Lieutenant Von Forstner and his "wackes" and the lame cobbler.
@EdwardRommel about Zabern do you know that english made a word from the event in zabern ? zabernism : who means when military over used power on civilian. You spoke about the fact that prussians didn't treat us as true germans, don't forget they took Elsass over FR after the 1870 war, we was a conquered land not a united land. the 1870 war is for my the symbol of the weakness of FR, that date FR have a better army than DE, but every decision come from Paris, DE, take descision on the...
...on the battlefield. Today we could see that FR gov. take all decision at Paris, FR when DE have feuderal state, so look now who have a better economy. Who is more mind open ? more realistic ? FR state has a sentence who bell freak for me :
« La République française est UNE et indivisible »
in englsih :
« French Republic is ONE and indivisible »
This goes against the idea of your president Wilson, who said something like Each People has the rights of his land, In FR you can't!...
... FR use the words "Democratic" and "Republic" like the DDR use it! everything come from Paris! well no, I have to do a modification, orders comes from Paris, but money comes from the citizen through the "régions" (country ?). In Elsass we have a local social security (established during german period), from all of France this system is the only ONE who make more money than he uses. FR gov wants to destroy it and replace by the FR system. Isn't quiet stupid ? I can speak...
@EdwardRommel ...I can speak like that for a while, but I have so much to do and my english isn't always good, especillay I forgot a lost of preterit form, DDR isn't still alive :D ... sorry for that, even I lived at Montreal, I use almost the french.
@MrAlsaco Alsace is a fascinating country...where two great nations come together...Germany and France.
I have studied a lot of Alsatian history and German history. I felt sorry for Germany losing 35% of their territory to Poland, Denmark and to France.
But I do have to say that my investigation did reveal that Alsace was not such a simple open and shut case of a German speaking people being forcibly attached to France. As you know it is much more complicated than that.
@Elsass79 from Barker's 1915 book "The submerged nationalities of the German Empire" page 38 at archive,org.
"But Sir Morier recognized that the Alsatians were French in feeling and had no desire to be reunited with Germany; and he was told by the Grand Duke of Baden that the strongest possible national French feeling pervaded the WHOLE population."
Wouldn't the Grand Duke of Baden know the sentiments of the people in nearby Alsace?
@EdwardRommel Still didn't take look to these books, but I agree to say that probably most Alsatians didn't especially wanted to go back to Germany, as before 1870 France had not started a strong assimilation policy, and benefited from a certain prestige due to the Revolution of 1789 and the abolition of feudalism.
@Elsass79 No I am not from a German background. My ancestors came from Britain. But I do find German history fascinating. I have read a lot of books on Germany.
Archive,org is an excellent website for doing research because you can download old books into Adobe acrobat reader PDF file for free. Those old books are like a time machine that lets you see what people thought back then.
The 1913 French flags incident was mentioned in Daniel Blumenthal's 1917 book.
@EdwardRommel Are you talking about the book "Alsace-Lorraine". If yes, it is quite known to be a propaganda book. From a guy like Blumenthal, this is actually not surprising.
@Elsass79 I spent 9 days in France in 1987...saw Paris, Loire Valley, Bourges, Lyon, Nice...but we didn't go to Alsace. The closest I got to Alsace was the Rhine falls and Heidelberg.
If I ever go back to Europe, I want to visit the famous little town of Saverne(Zabern) which caused such a big scandal in Germany in 1913.
Which part of Alsace are you from? BTW...for some reason I can not view your channel.
I agree I used to live there. The alsacian, ethnically speaking, is a germanic type of people. Now that doesnt mean they are germans but they are germanic. all the city names, people's last names are so german, street names, food, house styles...they are originally a germanic type of people you cant deny that. Now after all the messed up history there might /must be french influnce to the culture so now the culture is a mix of both. They physically look Germanic too.(nose and structu
@Elsass79 There is also a 1991 book on the "Saverne affair" that I read. That incident was sparked by a Prussian lieutenant who became very angry upon seeing the French word for chicken on a restaurant menu in Saverne. He also struck a lame cobbler with his sword for laughing at him.
Why have the Alsatians abandoned the Alsatian language? because of French Govt. linguistic oppression? perhaps. But if the German govt. could not stamp out Polish or Danish...how did the French Govt. do it?
@EdwardRommel To this I can quickly respond: the French gov. has a very insidious language politics. It just negates any minority or cultural diversity in France. From 1918, from one day to another, the language of instruction at school was suddenly switched from German to French, though the pupils didn't understand one word of it! Only teachers who could adapt were kept, others were fired. All newspapers, everything in German was banned.
It was the same in Lille. My ex(alsacian)'s mom is chiti from near lille. THey are really looked down upon by the 'french.' and their native language is some flamish(?) kinda north language(chiti) anyways she told me when she went to school if she spoke chiti she'd get spanked.(she's only 50 now so thats not too long ago) but since she spoke it at home she can still speak chiti. But my ex grew up in alsace and only speaks a few sentences of alsacian now i think its soooooo sad .
@EdwardRommel But Alsatian resisted and there was a very strong autonomistic movement between WW1 and WW2. Unfortunately then came Nazi barbaria, and Alsace suffered a lot from it. So I guess peoples became tired of fighting for their rights. France made the Alsatians feel inferior if they would speak their language, and so a lot decided to educate their children only in French. But a lot of (old) Alsatian still speak the alsatian dialect today.
@Elsass79 I was re-reading "The Submerged nationalities of the German Empire " by Ernest Barker at archive,org.
Here's what he had to say about the "autonomist" party in 1915...on page 42
"the more moderate section in which the Govt. placed its hope was the 'autonomist' party which had its chief seat in the Protestant part of Alsace. Unlike the 'protesters' who were simply intransigent, the autonomists were willing to recognize the fait accompli. but ...wanted A-L as a German state"
All people should speak their local languages and just speak the official one in school. It's totally possible to be fluent in two languages without accent if you do it since you were born!
Yes france thinks it is the best and lots of young alsacians refuse to speak alsacians because it's not hip(propaganda)... so sad.
If you go to the villages in France lots of old people only speak alsacian and german.
Respond to this video... In fact lots of bankers in alsace have to know german because the rich wine makers, the old ones are so rich they only want to speak alsacian or german(since when they were born it was still germany) and they dont speak french that well so when they go to the banks if you want to get their money you better speak something they understand.
@EdwardRommel They just do not see anymore the connection to written german (Hochdeutsch). But I have the feeling that this is evolving. The new generation knows much its true history and is much more interested in preserving its identity. As a proof, the first autonomistic representative since more than 80 years has been elected a few weeks ago in Alsace!
@Elsass79 About the 1911 Constitution for Alsace-Lorraine...Barker says on pg. 52 "Only a single deputy from Alsace-Lorraine voted for this Constitution. The rest were in the minority of 93 which voted for its rejection."....but the majority of the German Reichstag did vote to approve the Constitution for Alsace.
For an explanation of why the Alsatian delegates all voted to reject the Constitution read Barker's book pages 49-52.
@EdwardRommel I only know that the 7 deputies from the Zentrum Elsaß-Lothringen party voted against as a sign of protest because they were disappointed not to obtain the same rights as the other German states, even if actually they were conscious this was a big step forward. In fact, there was for Alsatians much more rights for self-administration with this imperfect constitution than today in French Alsace.
@Elsass79 I read somewhere that Hitler once commented on Berlin's excessive control over German society during the 2nd Reich. He commented that "you needed Berlin's permission to put up a street lamp"
There is an excellent 427 page book at archive,org called "The German Empire" from 1913 by Burt Howard PHD.
If you want an analysis of the German Empire by a German American PHD you can read "Government and Politics of the German Empire" by Fritz Kruger from 1915....380 pages.
@Elsass79 "there was for Alsatians much more rights for self-administration...."
France, like USA, Britain, Canada, Belgium, Holland, Norway, etc were considered to be "democratic states"
Germany during 2nd Reich was definately not considered a "democratic state". If you read those two books I referenced on the German Empire you will see why that is.
It is true that the Reichstag did have universal suffrage for all males over 25 years old. But the Reichstag had no legislative powers
@Elsass79 this is really getting into Political Science but basically the German Empire was very autocratic...almost fuedalistic in many ways.
The Reichstag could not initiate legislation. It could only vote yay or nay on legislation that the upper house(bundesrat) sent down to it. Also it could not amend the German Constitution without a 2/3majority vote in the Bundesrat...which Prussia controlled more than 50% of.
Prussia had a 3 circle voting system based upon how much you paid in taxes
@Elsass79 So under that 1911 Constitution, the Kaiser appointed the 3 Alsatian members of the Bundesrat...and Alsace like all the other German states had no real power in the Reichstag.
But in Alsace you had two local parliaments...an upper house and a lower house. There again in the upper house, the Kaiser appointed about 1/2 of the reps...and the upper house had control over the lower house in Strasbourg.
So effectively the kaiser ruled Alsace...not the Alsatians and not the Reichstag.
I would love to see that but as a foreigner living in alsace i see the local identity and language being washed out by French nationalism and pop culture. Young people raarely speak alsactian just one or two sentences and I have a geeling the language will die out. Hopefully not tho. I think the french goverment should really stop supressing all the native languages of each region.
@Lucicluc Bien sûr que vous êtes bête, l'Alsace est alsacienne c'est tout ! :p
Son Histoire est particulière, et mes sources sont que je suis Alsacien et je m'intéresse beaucoup à l'Histoire de ma région... Renseignes-toi un peu également de ton côté, tu verras que l'Alsace a toujours été animée par une volonté d'indépendance, notamment avec la Constitution d'Alsace-Moselle et son Parlement qui offraient une certaine indépendance vis-à-vis de l'Empire allemand.
@Lucicluc Tssss tu es toujours aussi ridicule à enfermer l'Alsacien dans une bulle germanique alors que des influences franciques sont non négligeables ! La langue est quelquechose de local et je me considère plus proche linguistiquement d'un Bâlois que d'un Berlinois !!
@MekItBurn tu as bien prouvé de ne pas avoir des arguments ... LOL ! Ou sont tes sources? Moi je ne conteste pas les influences "franciques" ou même "francaises" n'importe quoi, lol. Mais quant à la langue: l'Alsace est tout à fait ALLEMANDE.
Et moi je ne suis pas allemand, je suis luxembourgeois. Je te dis que l'Allemagne est plus noble que la France, d'un niveau presqu'incomparable !
In 1871 all of the representatives from Alsace read a protest of the German Empire's annexation of Alsace in Bordeaux where the French Govt. had fled to after the war of 1870.
In 1874 all of newly elected representatives to the Reichstag read a proclamation in the Reichstag protesting the annexation.
Colmar mayor Abbe Wetterle wrote a book in 1918 about his experiences called "Behind the Scenes in the Reichstag" at archive,org. It's a rather negative view of German Empir
@Lucicluc Tu peux trouver l'Allemagne plus noble que la France, mais ne modifie pas l'Histoire : les Alsaciens ont toujours préféré la France à l'Allemagne ! Au moment de l'annexion de 1871, plus 70 000 Alsaciens sont partis et plus de 40 000 Allemands ont émigré en Alsace...
@MekItBurn Les Allemands sont les "boches", les occupants qui prennent l'Alsace pour leur vitrine ouest ! En 1918 les drapeaux français et alsaciens (rot un wiss) fleurissaient partout, par contre le centralisme jacobino-parigot à malheureusement fait des ravages culturels et linguistiques...
@MekItBurn Au moment de l'annexion de l'Alsace en 1940 les Alsaciens étaient très loin de la joie et de la liesse, c'était plutôt l'évacuation pour fuir les Allemands ! Et si les Alsaciens sont de vrais Allemands, pourquoi les autorités militaires qui les incorporaient de force les envoyaient quasi systématiquement sur le front russe ?
En 19ième siècle, être "membre" de France ne signifaiit pas encore d'être obligé de s'identifier comme 'francophone'. Ca c'est la différence. Jusqu'à 1939, les alsaciens ont largement rejeté la culture et la langue française. En fait, les francophiles dominateurs à Paris devraient établir une statue pour l'oncle Adolf parce qu'il a offert aux français une parfaite opportunité pour franciser la population. L'alsace est GERMANOPHONE de souche ...
@Lucicluc Tout à fait, je n'ai jamais dit le contraire ! Je dénonce continuellement le "génocide" culturel et linguistique du jacobinisme parisien, et ça ne concerne pas que l'Alsace mais toutes les régions françaises comme la Bretagne, le pays Basque, etc...
L'Alsace est germanophone de souche ? C'est quoi la souche ? Les Alamands ? Les Celtes ?
L'Alsace est française et germanique, point. Il est ridicule d'insister plus sur la germanisme que personne ne nie !
A propos, moi j'ai connu 2 personnes alsatiennes (donc avec un passeport français) qui détestent la France est se sentent au premier lieu allemands. Aussi sur internet on peut trouver des paroles négatives vis à vis des français. comme p.e. "nos noms sont allemands, nos villages sont allemands ... mais on nous a volé notre langue". Ici sur youtube il y a un vidéo ou un alsacien dit "un bon alsacien est presque pour la moité un allemand"
@Lucicluc Vous généralisez à partir de votre exemple ? Venez en Alsace et faites un sondage, vous verrez les résultats... Moi j'y suis né et j'y vis toujours, alors ne venez pas me donner la leçon avec vos lectures et vos maigres expériences personnelles !
Jamais je n'ai nié la double-culture de l'Alsace, française et allemande, par contre je serais toujours contre le pangermanisme d'une minorité de nationalistes germanophiles !
@Lucicluc bordel c'est pas possible ! t'as trouvé 2 cons qui sucent les allemands et tous les Alsaciens sont du coup allemand, je suis alsacien et la majorité sont fiers d'etre francais et europeens. C'est pas parce que les Alsacos vont au Kaufland faire leurs commissions et se baigner au Caracalla qu'on est pro germanique, on est en 2011 plus en 45 alors les conneries de clichés à la con sur les alsaciens c'est pour ceux qui ne connaissent rien à l'Alsace et toi visiblement tu n'y connait rien.
Moi qui pensait qu'on l'on pouvais pas remarquer que j'étais alsacienne... au moins j'ai la preuve que je suis alsacienne a 100%
ASshowfun 1 day ago
FIER D'ETRE ALSACIEN!!!!!!!!
Christobal16 5 days ago
Moi, je viens du Bitcherland et cette video me correspond tout à fait aussi x)
TheFrenchBelieber57 2 months ago
Vive l'Alsace, ça culture et son histoire ! Fier d'être Alsacien !
Angelus68320 2 months ago
En réalité l'Alsace-Moselle c'est le territoire en France où on a un climat continental, donc il fait certes très froid en hiver mais à partir du printemps il fait beau et chaud, et même très chaud en été. C'est souvent chez nous qu'il y a les températures les plus hautes en juillet. Donc c'est faux de dire qu'on "met encore le chauffage au mois de mai" ou qu'on trouve "qu'il fait chaud à partir de 15°".
Shogo5000 4 months ago
Vive l'alsace !
Ma bonne petite ville du Haut-Rhin
Je suis une alsacienne folle atitude et fière de l'être ^^
MissAudreyB68 4 months ago
Pour tout dire l'Alsace est l'Alsace est la Moselle est Lorraine... nNe mélangeons pas les torchons et les alsaciens... (ne prend pas sa au mot quoique....)
Jejo2826 6 months ago
On aurait pu intituler cette vidéo : "Tu es Alsacien ou Mosellan si" ! ^^ Je suis originaire de Moselle et j'y vis. Eh bien, nous avons exactement les mêmes expressions que les Alsaciens, comme montré dans cette vidéo ! Et deux jours fériés en plus également ! Votre belle région et notre beau département sont si proches ! Vive l'Alsace et la Lorraine (Moselle en particulier ^^) et le Grand Est Français !
57Bubudu57 6 months ago 4
@57Bubudu57 d accord avec toi je suis de thionville et je vis en Alsace depuis un an, l’accent n'est pas le même mais on se comprend très bien et ça en devient marrant
poupette6723 6 months ago
Je vis en Alsace, TRES FIER D'y vivre !
et de nos deux jour férié en plus ~~
Raito099 7 months ago
vive l'elsass !!!
je suis fier de ma region !!!
PS:je m'apelle stahl....
X01Andromeda 7 months ago
Exact ! echt wor ^^
Elpingoin67rac 7 months ago
Alsace its their own thing(just like each individual and region), they are not french, not german, they are alsacian!!! :)
igusan 9 months ago 11
ELSASS FREI !
misterrobotex 10 months ago
si ton coeur chante en allemand!
IustitiaPax 11 months ago 2
Oh mon dieu !!! je suis tombé dessus par hasard, et qu'ai je bien rigoler... Etant Mosellan, et ayant conserver quelques 'défauts' linguistique force d'écouter cette grand mère Alsacienne avec le fameux mélange Platt et Allemand, je me suis rappelé de franches rigolades sur le thème de nos accents avec de vieux compagnons de vacances lorsque j'étais plus jeune.
A prendre au second degré pour ceux qui auraient perdus quelques neurones ....
FreddoLaNature 1 year ago 2
C'est fou mais pourquoi les commentaires sont en anglais ? C'est une video humoristique, on va pas polémiquer sur la seconde guerre mondiale
Serpette94 1 year ago
Ce qui est certain c'est que l'état francais maiprise les peuples dit minoritaires. Comment peut il ignorer l'existance d'un Pays Basque dont le peuple est le plus ancien d'Europe, que ni Charlemagne ni les romains ni les sarazins n'ont réussi à vaincre . Vive l'Europe des Régions Vive l'euskadi! Gora Euskal Herria askatuta!!! Gora Euskal gudaria!!! Défendez votre langue
MsEuskadi 1 year ago
Haha j'ai tout les symptomes !! ^^
masterelsasser 1 year ago
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Super ta video choupinette68, ça ravive des souvenirs bien que je sois juste une "voisine".
Hé oui, y'a une chiée de points communs avec la Suisse, ce qui est normal vu le mélange franco-germanique.
MlleChatonneR 1 year ago
Comment removed
MlleChatonneR 1 year ago
Si tu te protèges de la pluie avec un barabli...........
philippedu13 1 year ago
lol c sympa
sonia67190 2 years ago
Bravo aux Alsaciens ! La jolie culture franco-allemande!
Bravo an die Elsässer! Die schöne Deutsch-französische Kultur!
Alsace bilingue ! Elsass zweisprachig !
Lucicluc 2 years ago
@Lucicluc les alsacien parlent plus le dialecte
TrueSoldierJay 2 years ago
"Alsacien" ist Deutsch und nix anders... reiner französischer Imperialimus ...
STRAßBURG ist Straßburg...
Lucicluc 2 years ago
@TrueSoldierJay Non, les français (= l'Etat francophile à Paris) la qualifie comme "dialecte". La vérité: alsacien est allemand. Evidemment l'allemand parlé à Strassburg est différent de la langue parlée à Berlin, mais c'est incontestablement d'allemand. La France (= Sarkozy et ses troupes) nie ce fait parce qu'elle a peur d'admettre que l'Alsace est d'origine tout à fait allemand.
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc t'as raison. tu viens de strasbourg?
TrueSoldierJay 1 year ago
@TrueSoldierJay Danke. Non, de Luxembourg.
Si l'Etat français était noble, ils y feraient mieux de permettre un bilinguisme franco-allemand en Alsace et en Lorraine. La loie actuelle est seulement là pour freiner le rayonnement de l'allemand en Alsace. "Oh alsacien c'est QU'Un DIALECTE" ... oh well, the European Union still promotes French imperialism ... :-|
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc ein zweisprachiges Elsass wäre keine schlechte Idee, aber ich glaube nicht, dass sich die Elsässer heutzutage noch deutsch fühlen
TrueSoldierJay 1 year ago
@TrueSoldierJay Stimmt. Manche schon, andere nicht. Das ist aber fast vollständig zwangsläufig geschehen. Die Franzosen haben was dieses Thema angeht keine Manieren. Und das Schlimmste ist, (so gut wie) niemand spricht darüber. Aber wenn man einen Blick auf die Nachnamen der Elsässer wirft... wer würde sich nicht fragen, wo denn seine/ihre Wurzeln liegen?
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc Je ne suis pas d'accord, l'Alsace n'est pas franco-allemande mais rhénane. La bilinguisme doit être alsacien/français et pas d'allemand, surtout pas de hochdeutsch !
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn L'alsace a toujours été GERMANOphone ... mais excusez-moi, je savais .. pardon , tout le monde sait que pas mal de francophones sont des impérialistes de langue françaises. Tous les noms de village alsaciens sont allemands. On peut le voir encore aujourd'hui en français (Eschwiller, Detwiller, Forbach) et on a changé quelques noms comme Lützelstein et Schlettstadt. Consultez vos livres d'histoire, svp. ELSASS = DEUTSCH !
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc Tu fais semblant de ne pas comprendre ce que je dis et c'est dommage... Pas d'impérialisme de langue française mais pas d'impérialisme de langue allemande non plus !!!
Tu parles de livre d'histoire ? Et bien regardes comment faisaient les Alsaciens en 1945 pour découvrir les Allemands qui s'étaient installés pendant le guerre... ils se pointaient à ta porte avec un parapluie et demandait ce que c'était ("wàs esch dos", pas "was ist das"), les Allemands répondaient "ein regenschaurm
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn alors que les Alsaciens répondaient "à paraplui".
ELSASS = ELSASS = Elsasserditch mais sûrement pas Deutsch !!! Les noms de village sont alémaniques, plus précisément alsaciens, pas d'impérialisme allemand merci.
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn quel simplisme ... donc parisien ce n'est pas un dialecte français, occitan ce n'est pas un dialecte français, chti ce n'est pas un dialecte français selon vous??? Elsässisch est un dialecte ALLEMAND ... tout à fait à 100 %. Je répète: je sais que dire la vérité n'est pas à la mode en France (plus particulièrement à Paris)
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc On est bien d'accord que l'Elsassich est un dialecte alémanique mais pas de l'allemand !!
Le hochdeutsch n'a rien à faire en Alsace, d'ailleurs les Allemands ou les Suisses parlent encore régulièrement des dialectes locaux plutôt que la langue officielle, chose de plus en rare en France on peut remercier le jacobinisme parisien...
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn Sans le savoir, tu a expliqué ce que j'ai essayé à expliquer... Oui, les germanophones en général (que ce soient des allemands, des autrichiens, des suisses, des Liechtensteinois des Luxembourgois ou des belges ... ils parlent presque tous des dialectes. Cela vaut aussi pour L'Elsass. C'est un dialecte ALLEMAND. Les différences entre les dialectes au sein d'Allemagne ne sont pas plus grandes que le dialecte de l'Elsass!
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@MekItBurn le désinformation "ce n'est pas d'allemand, c'est d'alsacien" créé par l'Etat francofile à Paris a seulement pour but de nier les racines de l'Alsace. Moi je ne dirais pas qu'il n' existe aucun un lien entre l'Elsass et la France, mais quant à la langue ... L'Elsass a toujours été germanophone. En France, on ne veut simplement pas entendre des choses comme "c'est allemand" ... ça doit être "alsacien", insistant que c'est à 100% français. C'est absurde !
Lucicluc 1 year ago 2
@Lucicluc Et moi je ne plaide pas pour une annexation à l'Allemagne. Pour cela, il est trop tard vu que le processus de francisation imposée après 1918 et de nouveau après 1945 est déjà trop avancé. Apparemment comme toi, je plaide pour une Alsace indépendante. Mais pas avec un bilinguisme "français et elsässisch" mais français et allemand. Parce que, je répèté ... Elsässisch est un dialecte allemand.
Lucicluc 1 year ago
"L'alsacien est un dialecte allemand au meme titre que le dialecte de Bade ou du Rheinland "
(livre: Alsation acts of identity, language use) faites un peu des recherches sur Google. De nouveau: croyez pas aux mensonges crée par une France peu noble !!!
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc Va chier avec tes attaques gratuites, je me considère Alsacien avant d'être Français, la France est peu noble mais l'Allemagne n'est pas mieux !
A bas le Pangermanisme !!!!!!
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn oh et a propos
*Ironie switched on* oh excusez-moi , que les vrais alsaciens utilisent l'allemand comme deuxième langue ... c'est évidemment un attrape-nigaud ! Que les pages Wiki parlent tous - excepté la page francophone, évidemment ;-))) d'un bilinguisme et d'un héritage culturel franco-allemand ... ce sont des mensonges ! M'en voulez pas, je suis tellement bête !! L'Alsace est "francique !"
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Strasbourg Mayor Daniel Blumenthal also wrote a good book called "Alsace-Lorraine; a study of the relations of the two provinces to France and to Germany" in 917 at archive,org. That also is a negative view of the German Empire
Also the German empire refused to make them a German state and didn't give them a Constitution until 1911 and sent in German settlers and gave all important jobs to Germans...did not please the Alsatians.
Don't forget the famous Zabern incident of 1913.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
The main German arguement for Alsace being rightfully part of Germany was;
1. That they spoke a Germanic dialect
2. they had been part of the Holy Roman Empire.
But Holland had been part of the Holy Roman Empire and also speaks a Germanic dialect. ..but neither the Dutch nor the Swiss Germans have ever wanted to be part of Germany
And from what I have read of Luxembourg history in WW1 & WW2.Luxborg never wanted to be part of Germany but both Kaiser and Hitler wanted Luxborg
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
It is rather short-viewed to say that Alsatians want to belong to France. Some were / are French-oriented, others German. What annoys me is the linguistic policy of France. Now, when it is almost too late ... they act AS IF they respect the Alsatian identity: they allow some "Alsatian-German plaques" next to the French road signs but it is forbidden to communicate in German or if you will "Alsatian" with the local authorities.
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
There is a good book at archive,org from 1918 called "Linguistic Oppression in the German Empire" by Ernest Barker where he discusses in detail the Germanization efforts not only in Alsace but also in Poland and Northern Schleswig.
Part of the famous Zabern affair" with Lt. Baron Von Forstner was caused because he went into an Alsatian restaurant and saw the French word for chicken on the menu instead of it in German...and he went into a rage ...he also called Alsatians "Wackes"
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Now from what I hear most of the young people don't speak Alsatian and most of the population usually speaks in French
The French expelled the German settlers after WW1 with some 4 part categorization system. You could say that the French were trying to "counter" the German empire's efforts to germanize them
Many of the famous French Generals in the Napoleonic war were Alsatians and the Marsellaise was written in Strasbourg. The German army always questioned their loyalty
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
There is a book called "The Zabern Affair, 1913-1914" by Richard Mackey from 1991. It was probably an overblown affair at the time but it did cause a big scandal in Germany that even involved the Kaiser,Crown Prince,and Chancellor Bethmann Hollweg. Even Germans were outraged about the treatment of the lame cobbler by Lt. Forstner who had offered 10 marks to anyone who used his sword on a "Wacke"
Did you know that saying "Bon Jour" in Alsace during WW1 was a fine of 5 marks?
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
There was some sort of "independent Alsace" briefly declared. But even Wetterle and Blumenthal in their books dismissed the idea of an independent Alsace because they both said that if it was independent France and Germany would always be attempting to influence it's affairs.
Some people compare Alsace with Brittany...French in spirit but very different from the rest of France also.
What do public opinion poles in Alsace currently say about "Alsatian Indepedence"?
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel have a look at UNSERLAND . org , Alsatian party. Website in German and French
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
I used google "translate" to read some of that UNSERLAND website...under their article "A brief history of the Alsatian flag"..they say that Alsace had autonomy in 1911...that's not true.
In the upper German Imperial house called the "Bundesrat" each German state had a certain number of votes...Prussia had 17.Alsace had 2 or 3. But Alsace's votes could not count if the Alsatian vote would give Prussia a majority...this was because the Kaiser controlled the Alsatian vote
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Why was Alsace made just a "Reichsland" territory instead of a 26th German state in the German empire in 1871? ...because the other 25 German states were fighting over Alsace's votes in the Bundesrat. So if Alsace were attached to Baden(as the Nazis did) that would give more power to Baden.
So their choice was 1. Make Alsace a 26th German state(a Republic because Alsatians didn't like monarchy) or 2. Attach it to Prussia...or 3. Make it part of the empire and not a state.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
They chose option 3 as the least problematic...but it didn't please the Alsatians because that meant that they were ruled from Berlin by the Kaiser and his "Staathalter" instead of being ruled locally from Strasbourg.
IMHO...they should have made Alsace a 26th state with a Constitution and let it be a Republic like Bremen, Lubeck and Hamburg.
But the Hohenzollerns and other German kings, Gr.Dukes and Dukes didn't really want a "liberal republic" living in the German Reich.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
And....if Alsace had been made a 26th German state in the German Empire...they could have and would have dismantled all efforts to germanize Alsace-Lorraine...they also could have altered the conscription laws for the army...since each state controlled its own army in peacetime...they could have also voided out the Lese Majestat laws regarding free press and free speech.
That simply would never have been acceptable to the Kaiser...and his son the Crown Prince was even worse.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
I think you are not getting what I'm trying to say. Before 1871 or let's say 1918 ... being part of France DIDN't mean you were forced to identify yourself as a French speaker. After 1918 the French launched a massive anti-German campaign and forbade any use of German. Still, the Alsatians stuck to their German language and refused the French culture. Only after 1945 (the French should establish a statue for Hitler !) the Alsatians accepted French cultural domination
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
I did acknowledge that the French changed their attitude about Alsace after WW1...mainly to counter-act the German Empire's efforts at germanizing Alsace.
"Alsatians stuck to their German language" ...I think you meant to say "Germanic language" because Alsatian is not the same as German..it is a patois.
After two terrible German invasions and destruction in 1914 and 1940, you can't really blame the French for being a little anti-German.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
So I will take your French idiot 2 weights - 2 mesures logic as an example to show you how goofy it is. In regions in France they speak occitan, lyonnais or gallon. Though they all belong to the French dialects, SO French language has nothing to seek there! Okay then, let's tear France and this stupid crap and give each region ONLY the local dialect. Really, anyone with linguistic knowledge will tell you: Alsation is as German as any other German dialect.
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel alsatian is linguistically a german dialect! before 1870 the term "alsatian" was never used for the language, only german! another heritage of french nationalism...two terrible german invasions? lol! the french didnt want WW1 no? it wasn't the french who declared WW2 on germany? and only and always with the same old goal to recreate the old european balance with france dominating the continent...and thereby weaken or destroy germany! blame the french, they started the ennemyship!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 Wetterle called the Alsatian language a "patois"...I have seen both German and Alsatian..the are very similar but not identical. Luxembourgese is similar to German but the Luxembourgese were always pro-french and anti-german.
Did you know that if the French had offered to be neutral in WW1, the German govt would have demanded that German troops occupy Toul, Verdun and Briey fortresses....that's why Germany got blamed for WW1...rightfully so. They started both WW1 and WW2.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel sorry, but a priest doing french war propaganda is no reference here! as i told you, alsatian was always called german before 1871! alsatian is based on german grammar like luxembourgish, it's a question of linguistics not of politics! "the french had offered to be neutral"? lol without the french there wouldn't have been a world war! they isolated germany by (secret) pacts with russia, italy and gb and wanted the war! its acknowledged today that germany isnt to blame for WW1 alone
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 Do some research....WHO started the alliance system?....Germany..
In 1878 Germany made an alliance with Austria-Hungary. In 1881 Germany made an alliance with Italy..it was called the Triple Alliance.
So poor little france with 40 million people is faced with 65million Germans in the north...and 50 million Italians on her southeast border...plus she faces the manpower of Austria...another 50 million...that's 165 million people against just 40 million people..
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel seems you understand nothing of bismarcks alliance system! it was to keep peace in europe against a furious france! the french untertermined the german pact with italy by doing a secret one which would keep italy out in case of war with germany! there the french will of doing war becomes clear! furthermore it was more necessary for germany to keep alliances as being surounded by all great powers of the time!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 So in desperation France had to turn to an alliance with autocratic czarist Russia.
But the Russians made it very clear that this alliance would never support a french war of "revanche" against Germany to retake Alsace-Lorraine.
France could not turn to isolationist Britain with a puny army of 100,000 men...so what would you have done?
You Germans have to face facts...your autocratic govts in 1914 and 1939 started two terrible world wars. Don't deny it. Be honest .
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel lol what did russian foreign minister sasanow say in 1913:" the peace loving german emperor is our garant that we have to find the start of war by ourselves", what did former french foreign minister pichon say in 1915: "there would be no war if delcassé ( french foreign affairs) hadn't agitated the russians against the germans"...just two quotas which proof russian and french official volunty to start a war! germans are masters in facing facts, maybe thats why we are the most liked
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 In 1914 Europe was out of balance because Germans-Austrians-Hungarians ruled Slavs in Poland, Czec, slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-herzegovina,and Ruthenia.....but Slavs ruled no Germans.
Slavs like Italians in1866 and like Germans in1871..wanted their own states..they wanted their freedom.
But instead of seeing the trend for national freedom, the Austrians annexed even more Slavs in Bosnia and therey violated the Treaty of Berlin of 1878...and your Germany supported it
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel the trend for national freedom! yes! this was the early 20th century not some 68 revolution! ask your peace-loving frenchies why they annexed alsace-lorraine although they wanted their own state! btw serbia hasn't been part of austria-hungary which has always been a state of different nations, so the parallels you draw between them and italy and germany are nonsense!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 Even your Kaiser Wilelm II upon seeing the conciliatory Serbian response to the Austrian Ultimatum said "now all grounds for war disappear"...yet he refused to force austria to take the Austrian Ultimatum to the Hague Tribunal...and they refused a conference in London.
Even Hitler later said he would never start a war over just an assasination.
Why did Germany refuse all efforts at mediation in 1914?...because the German govt. wanted to break up the Franco-Russian alliance.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel as you state correctly, it was kaiser wilhelm who was the one who tried to intervene, and he was quite the only one! where were the french and russian peace efforts during the crisis of july? nothing, because they wanted the great war like several germans! by the way it was russia which started its general mobilization before germany and the serbs did it before austria! that is why all are to blame for the outbreak, not without mentioning britains interests!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 The response to mobilization is mobilazation...not a declaration of war.
Read "Evidence in the Case" by James M. Beck at archive,org...he was a Swiss German american lawyer wo analyzed WW1 from a legal argument...he found Germany guilty.
Serbia had accepted 8 of the 10 harsh demands...and Russia and Serbia requested that the 2 remaining demands be adjudicated by the hague Tribunal. Germany refused. Britain proposed a 4 power ambassador conference in London...Germany refused
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel a mobilisation against a neighbouring country is a provocation showing willingness of war! then germany had to attack rather than waiting for being attacked from both sides! before germany tried to limit the war on austria and serbia! it didn't attack serbia, austria did, with german approval, so nonsense to blame germany for starting the war! the other great powers saw this crisis rather as an opportunity to finish with the germans! read niall ferguson or richard keegan!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 ............OR....you could have just said "yeah...the Russians and Serbians are right...let's just take this diplomatic mess to a neutral 3rd party like the Hague Tribunal to adjudicate."
Problem solved....no WW1......No Versailles Treaty....NO LOSS OF ALSACE-LORRAINE....no inflation of 1923...no Depression.....no rise of the NSDAP....no Nuremberg Laws.....no bombed out German cities, no holocaust...
So as a German...don't blame Hitler...blame Kaiser Wilhelm II.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel your causal sequence ist sweet but not historical! you could also say without germany unity...no concurrence...no WW1! the versailles treaty is one of the main reasons for hitler, thats what the allies, esp. france, are to blame for! nobody forced them to do such an unhuman treaty, to annex alsace-lorraine, to suck germany out, to bomb the cities while doing nothing against the holocaust!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 Sadly today Germany is only 65% of the size it was in 1914 and Germans have been expelled from Poland and Sudetenland.
But the Poles,Alsatians and Danes got their freedom.
If only you Germans could have seen the imbalance in Europe and not used such harsh measures for Germanization of your minorities...you might not be "just 65% of your 1914 size"..and you might still posess Alsace-Lorraine
But you Germans finally now have a democratic republic...no Kaisers..no dictators
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel you know we germans don't care about lost land, besides a bunch of extremists! the german idea is far beyond some acres of land! we are back on stage, the most powerful european country and at the same time the country which learned most of its dark years. that is what we are proud of and that is why we are admired like never before!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 You Germans don't care NOW...but uncle Adolf sure did care about Posen and West Prussia...even thouhg Germans ruled Slavs in Prague....so a few Germans were still ruled in Poland....you Germans ruled Slavs in Prague...that's a fair trade...
But Oncle Adolf didn't look at it that way...no he was willing to set Europe on fire...
Read up on the "Hague Peace Convention" of 1899 and 1907 at archive,org ...it was proposed by the Russian Czar Nicholas II.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel was adolf your oncle? famous relatives you got! why don't you tell us about the miserable life of the german minority in poland after WW1 and their hatred against all german? it's the typical american black and white point of view, but as you are living near hollywood i have to forgive you...
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Also you have to consider that Alsace could not really have been "frenchified" if they didn't really want to be "frenchified" because the Germans were never able to Germanize Poland from 1795 to 1918 and they tried very hard with strong measures of linguistic oppression in the German Empire.
Even the Germanic Danes of Northern Schleswig refused to become Germans. Prussians basically rubbed people the wrong way..even other Germans like Bavarians didn't like Prussians.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
Ask anyone in Germany who speaks dialect, Kölsch, Schwäbisch, Berlinerisch, ... they will all say they speak German. Well, so do Alsatians. But Frenchmen (especially outside Alsace) don't like the sound of that so they re-invented the facts in saying that "it is Alsatian". Someone with apparent historical baggage like you buying that shit surprises me. Perhaps you have only consulted one-sided (French) versions. Alsatian IS German. But it is politically incorrect to say that
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
An interesting thing about German people's attitude towards Alsatians is as Mekitburn alluded to...the treatment of Alsatian soldiers in the German army in WW1 and in WW2. The German officials did not trust Alsatian soldiers with sensitive information and did not want them fighting the French in WW1 or WW2 because of the risk of desertian. And many Alsatian soldiers joined the French Foreign Legion before WW1...even though it often meant they could never ever return to Alsace.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
I am astonished by your statement "it is not German, it is a patois". That would also mean that all the different dialects within the English language are NOT English? In saying that you just implicitly follow the French nonsense (lies invented in their own interest of course) about Elsass. The language spoken in neighbouring Rheinland and Baden is 90% the same. German language differs just about anywhere over the German-speaking territory.
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
In Wetterle's book "Behind the Scenes in the reichstag" he mentions a large party at the Reichstag in 1910 and that he had gotten many Alsatian vinyards to donate free wine to this party...the Germans happily drank 400 bottles..but would not make any orders for Alsatian wine....they preferred to buy German wine from the Rhineland.
German Empire also had some strict "passport" laws that prevented Alsatians who had fled to France from visiting relatives in Alsace.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
Wikipedia about Alsatian language: Not readily intelligible to speakers of standard German, Alsatian is closely related to other nearby Alemannic dialects, such as Swiss German, Swabian, and Badisch.
This shit about "not German, but Alsatian" is POLITICAL ... doesn't that ring any bells? Merely political... Why do all Alsatians who write German (oh sorry, Alsatian !) write in standard German? Because it is NOT their language? lol
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Also keep in mind that a common language does not necessarily mean union...or English speaking Americans would not have rebelled against England.
The Flemish of Belgium do not want union with Holland because of religious differences.
I suspect the Alsatians were like the Swiss Germans in that they did not want to be part of Germany because of different attitudes towards personal liberty...finally since 1945 Germany has a free Govt. ..but it's too late now.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel
And something more: the French state refuses to support any local language culture WHEN it is also the language of a neighbouring country. As German is a very important language in Europa with the largest number of native speakers, the French state is afraid of the "Alsatian affair", but as they don't want too much negative publicity either, they do allow "Alsatian" language signs, but any other official use is strictly forbidden. Hypocritical arses !
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Ethnic rivalry in Europe in general is much stronger than in the USA.
When I read "Linguistic Oppression in the German Empire" by Barker at archive,org I was amazed the Polish language would be banned in schools, street signs, cemetaries, menus.
In California where I live many of the restaurants have Spanish names like "Del Taco", "El Torrito", "El Pollo Loco"....we have entire areas that have Vietnamese business signs....Korea town, China town, etc.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Bismarck never wanted Alsace-Lorraine to be annexed to Germany but Moltke and the German military wanted it for a defensive area.
August Bebel and the SPD party in Germany did not want Alsace to be annexed to Germany because they knew France would want it back and they felt that Germany would have to maintain an expensive large army to retain Alsace.
The Germans had a large army fortresse at Metz and at Strasbourg and it did sour Franco-German relations for years.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
German Foreign Minister Von Jagow famously commented in 1913 "When I am in Alsace I feel like I am in a foreign country".
Kaiser Wilhelm II became very angry when he visited Mulhausen in 1911 and was greeted with many French flags(which were illegal under German law).
Why would the people of Colmar elect Wetterle to the Reichstag if they knew he was pro-French? Why would the people of Strasbourg elect Blumenthal as mayor in 1906 if they knew he was pro-French?
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
So I am firmly convinced Alsace was not happy in the German Empire and wanted out...but as to "Did Alsace want to be part of France or to be Independent"...that I am not so sure of.
I would like to see a current unbiased poll on what Alsatians say about independence or to remain part of France. In the US we have public opinion polls all the time...so I would assume there are also some public opinion polls on current Alsatian attitudes towards independence. and France.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel 30 years after being part of germany, the alsatians were in a vast majority pro-german! you just have to compare the reichstag election results over the first 30 years and you will see that partys who were rather in favour of being seperated from germany, continuosly lost! you can't draw a peoples opinion from one or two biographies! there were probably also some french-speaking alsatians who were happy with the nazis!
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@nightwish1000 I don't base my opinion solely on Blumental and Wetterle's books. Consider this.
1. In 1871 in Bordeaux the Alstain delegation to the French parliament read a protest to the annexation.
2. in 1874 in Berlin the Alsatian delegation to the German parliamnet
about 600000 French fled from alsace and about 600000 German settlers moved in....so in a little country of 1.5 million people that will radically alter the demograpic makeup of Alsace...and there was Germanization efforts
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel there were germanization efforts which reached never the impact of the francisation afterwards! you are talking here about the first years when alsatians were french socialised! 25 years later, the new generations felt german! just have a look at the development of the elections! in germany after 1871 alsatians could openly speak for independence, in france after WW1 they were arrested or executed if they did so...get your facts str8, individual cases don't reflect the society
nightwish1000 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Colmar mayor Daniel Blumenthal was sentenced to death 8 times by the Kaiser's Govt. and had to flee from Alsace.
Blumenthal is a German name and yet he was very pro-French. So apparently it was not just the Alsatians with French sounding names who opposed the German Imperial Govt.
I think Emil Abbe Wetterle is also a German name...so just because someone has a German ethnic background didn't mean they liked Germany.
See wikipedia article "Daniel Blumenthal"
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
Why would the Alsatians elect men in 1874 who all oposed the annexation to Germany? It was free and open elections for Reichstag seats so I am definately inclined to believe that most Alsacians preferred to be part of France rather than part of Germany because they were used to democratic institutions and Germany was very autocratic in 2nd Reich
The situation was complicated by Germany sending in hundreds of thousands of German settlers.that's why France didn't want a plebiscite
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel Basically I tend to agree with what you're saying BUT ... I don't hear you mentioning the Alsatians' discontent after 1919 and 1945 ... when linguistic repression was taking place by the French state. They didn't want to belong to France, they wanted an independant Alsatian state.
The French state has always been trying to deceive people and foreign countries by claiming "Alsatians don't speak German, they speak Alsatian".
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
The French did change their policy. Before 1870 they never tried to force the French language upon Alsace...that's why Alsace was still speaking Alsatian after 200 years of French rule.
The French did apparently take a different attitude after WW1 but you have to remember that the Germans had tried very hard to Germanize Alsace. Only German could be taught in schools, on cemetery tombstones, on restaurant menus, on business signs, street signs, public meetings, etc.
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@EdwardRommel This "protestation" of 1874 was a masquerade. These deputies were elected by a minority of the population (if I remember well 100000 on 600000 only voted), and these 100000 were principally french or frenchified peoples. Read the book by Pierri Zind for a good view on the topic.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 ...hmm..but here's the problem with your analysis. Both the French empire and the German Empire had universal suffrage for all males 25 years old and older.
So the Alsatian reps who protested in Bordeaux in 1871 represented the Alsatian people. And the newly elected Alsatian reps to the German Reichstag in 1874 also represented the Alsatian people
Why did the Alsatian people keep electing men like Blumenthal and Abbe Wetterle to their state and Federal parliaments and as mayors?
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 About 500,000 "frenchified peoples" left Alsace for France in the 1870 and 1880's. And at the same time about 500,000 German settlers moved into Alsace. So of course that could change the demographics of a province with only 1.5 million people.
Why would Alsatians not vote in a German empire election? maybe a protest to the annexation? So if voter turnout was low it was most likely low amoung the pro-French population and not low amoung the pro-German population.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel Not 500000 left. Actually 387000 were already in France. Then ca. 150000 opted for France (as I wrote they were mainly civil servants who would obtain a lot of advantages in leaving), but on these 150000 only 1/3 actually left.
This is all a complicated question. I also have - though I am an Alsatian - difficulties in understanding this time. If you can read French, I could scan you some pages from one book on this topic of "protestation".
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 Check out a website called archive,org. It has some good books regarding the Alsace question written in English, French and German that are pro-French and pro-German.
1. Alsace-Lorraine under German Rule by Hazen(1917)
2. Alsace-Lorraine: A study of the relations of the two provinces to France and Germany by Blumenthal(1917)
3. The question of Alsace and Lorraine: lecture given at Aeolian Hall.(1917)
4. Behind the Scenes in the Reichstag by Abbe Wetterle (1918)
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 I can't read French or German and as an American it would be very arrogant of me to tell an Alsatian how Alsatians felt about German or French rule. I have always been a Germanophile and student of WW1.
But I also wanted to know more about the Versailles Treaty and why it gave Alsace-Lorraine back to France and why US President Wilson included it in one of his 14 points. It was a devisive issue amoung the allies in WW1. France insisted upon its return.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 Also read "Linquistic oppression in the German Empire" and "The submerged nationalities of the German Empire" by Ernest Barker from 1918 and 1915 at archive,org.
The German empire forbid any French words(or Polish or Danish) on restaurant menus, business signs, street names, tombstones, only German in much of school instruction and official business, only German in public meetings.
The Alsatians still spoke Alsatian in 1871 so there was no linguistic oppression before then.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel Though there was an attempt to re-germanise Alsace in 1871-1918, as the province is ethnically german, we cannot really talk of oppression. French was tolerated in French speaking area (Lorraine and Alsace specific locations). Alsatian still spoke their dialect before 1871, but a lot could already hardly write it or read it due to a (forced) lack of education in German.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 Yes the Germans definately tried to Germanize Alsace. In 1913 Kaiser wilhelm II visited Mulhouse and was greeted with French flags on people's balconies. Under German law , the French flag was illegal
Germany had "Lese Majestat" laws that could put you in prison for months or even years for disrespecting the Hohenzollerns. That's why Lieutenant Von Forstner attacked that lame cobbler for laughing at him because that implied that he was laughing at the uniform..at Germany and Kaiser
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel My opinion is that this has no meaning to "germanise" something which is already german by essence. So yes, the German Empire tried to delete the spurs of previous French presence, but that was actually a "go back to sources". About these French flags episode from 1913, what is your source?
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 The French Govt in 1870-1914 years was secular and that turned off some Alsatians who are mainly Catholic. But despite that fact Catholic Alsatians like Abbe Emil Wetterle did not want to join the CDU(center party) because it was supporting Prussian domination of Germany and Alsace. His 1918 book "Behind the Scenes in the Reichstag" covers 1898 to 1914 when he represented Colmar in the Reichstag.
I think Alsatians felt like second class citizens in the German empire.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel It is actually the case, they were second class citizens, because prussian administration didn't trust some of them. Alsatians had the same obligations, but not the same rights as other Germans. That was perhaps the biggest mistake of Germany. But this was changing, with the Constitution of 1911 for instance. And just before the armistice, there was negotiation in order that Elsass-Lothringen became a Bundesland like the other ones. But it was unfortunately too late.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 the 1911 Constitution was rejected by the Alsatian delegates in the Reichstag because it didn't give any real voting rights to Alsace in the upper German house(Bundesrat). They had 3 votes but those votes could not be counted if it would give Prussia a majority in the Bundesrat because the Kaiser appointed the Alsatian reps to the Bundesrat.
The German empire had an almost fuedalistic Govt. where the upper house was controlled by the Kings, Grand dukes, and dukes.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79
I agree all in all from my limited obervation living in alsce.. alsace really is a germantic type of culture and people in essence!! Edward just go there and actually live there and date someone from there, talk to old village people there then you will know. Even the way the alsacians think is slightly dfiffrent from the french(my bad, generalizing). Alsacians are very reserved unlike the southern french but once you become friends with them they never forget u.
igusan 9 months ago
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Elsass79 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@EdwardRommel By the way, that is very surprising to see an American so interested, and knowing well about such a subject. Are you from German origin?
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 I think Germany should have simply accepted Alsace as a 26th German state and it could have been assimilated into Germany. But instead they really treated Alsace like a conquered province. Kaiser Wilhelm II in 1912 threatened to tear up the 1911 Constitution and annex Alsace to Prussia "if things continue the way they are"
For a people used to democratic representation to go into a system like Prussia would have been a very difficult adjustment.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel Yes, that should have done Germany. Probably the Alsatian culture and heritage would be in much better health than under the present French rule. Do you know that still today, it is forbidden to have newspapers entirely in German in Alsace? We also have no radio, no TV in our language. Only French has the right to exist !
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 The Alsatians did have representation in the Reichstag...but the Reichstag had no power....other than approving budgets(which could be extended)
In the upper German house, the Bundesrat, Alsace had its apportioned 3 votes out of about 50 votes. But Prussia controlled who was sent to the Bundesrat by Alsace and also Prussia controlled how they voted. The members of the Bundesrat had to vote as a block per state and had to follow instructions from the respective rulers of each state.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 So if you compared Alsace under French rule with Alsace under German rule, the Alsatians did have representation in the French Parliament and the French Parliament could initiate legislation and it could amend the French Constitution when needed.
I would aree with you that in some respects Alsace had autonomy under the German Empire but it was only at the whim and fancy of the German Kaisers. It cycled between coercian and conciliation. Same thing with the Poles in Prussia.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
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MrAlsaco 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel I think Elsass should be united to geramny as a "land" french government suck your rights! french gov. take all decisions at Paris. Germany is a federal state so it will better for us! I'm born at Strasbourg, but I grew at Saverne, Saverne was the place of a lot of troubles (citizen vs army) when we was under the rule of the prussian empire, anyway every alsatian should ask to himslef which country (between FR and DE) did most improvements! and which actualy destroy our identity!
MrAlsaco 10 months ago
@MrAlsaco Hello Mr. Zabern,.
In English we have a saying "absence makes the heart grow fonder".
Of course the Alsatian people were a german speaking people..but sadly Germany did not treat them like a 26th German state in the 2nd Reich....the rest is sad history.
93 years without Prussian or German rule has indeed made the Alsatian heart grow fonder!
I want to go to Zabern and visit the famous sites of Lieutenant Von Forstner and his "wackes" and the lame cobbler.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel about Zabern do you know that english made a word from the event in zabern ? zabernism : who means when military over used power on civilian. You spoke about the fact that prussians didn't treat us as true germans, don't forget they took Elsass over FR after the 1870 war, we was a conquered land not a united land. the 1870 war is for my the symbol of the weakness of FR, that date FR have a better army than DE, but every decision come from Paris, DE, take descision on the...
MrAlsaco 10 months ago
...on the battlefield. Today we could see that FR gov. take all decision at Paris, FR when DE have feuderal state, so look now who have a better economy. Who is more mind open ? more realistic ? FR state has a sentence who bell freak for me :
« La République française est UNE et indivisible »
in englsih :
« French Republic is ONE and indivisible »
This goes against the idea of your president Wilson, who said something like Each People has the rights of his land, In FR you can't!...
MrAlsaco 10 months ago
... FR use the words "Democratic" and "Republic" like the DDR use it! everything come from Paris! well no, I have to do a modification, orders comes from Paris, but money comes from the citizen through the "régions" (country ?). In Elsass we have a local social security (established during german period), from all of France this system is the only ONE who make more money than he uses. FR gov wants to destroy it and replace by the FR system. Isn't quiet stupid ? I can speak...
MrAlsaco 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel ...I can speak like that for a while, but I have so much to do and my english isn't always good, especillay I forgot a lost of preterit form, DDR isn't still alive :D ... sorry for that, even I lived at Montreal, I use almost the french.
MrAlsaco 10 months ago
@MrAlsaco Alsace is a fascinating country...where two great nations come together...Germany and France.
I have studied a lot of Alsatian history and German history. I felt sorry for Germany losing 35% of their territory to Poland, Denmark and to France.
But I do have to say that my investigation did reveal that Alsace was not such a simple open and shut case of a German speaking people being forcibly attached to France. As you know it is much more complicated than that.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 from Barker's 1915 book "The submerged nationalities of the German Empire" page 38 at archive,org.
"But Sir Morier recognized that the Alsatians were French in feeling and had no desire to be reunited with Germany; and he was told by the Grand Duke of Baden that the strongest possible national French feeling pervaded the WHOLE population."
Wouldn't the Grand Duke of Baden know the sentiments of the people in nearby Alsace?
Have I changed your views a little..Mon Frere?
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel Still didn't take look to these books, but I agree to say that probably most Alsatians didn't especially wanted to go back to Germany, as before 1870 France had not started a strong assimilation policy, and benefited from a certain prestige due to the Revolution of 1789 and the abolition of feudalism.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 No I am not from a German background. My ancestors came from Britain. But I do find German history fascinating. I have read a lot of books on Germany.
Archive,org is an excellent website for doing research because you can download old books into Adobe acrobat reader PDF file for free. Those old books are like a time machine that lets you see what people thought back then.
The 1913 French flags incident was mentioned in Daniel Blumenthal's 1917 book.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel Are you talking about the book "Alsace-Lorraine". If yes, it is quite known to be a propaganda book. From a guy like Blumenthal, this is actually not surprising.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 I spent 9 days in France in 1987...saw Paris, Loire Valley, Bourges, Lyon, Nice...but we didn't go to Alsace. The closest I got to Alsace was the Rhine falls and Heidelberg.
If I ever go back to Europe, I want to visit the famous little town of Saverne(Zabern) which caused such a big scandal in Germany in 1913.
Which part of Alsace are you from? BTW...for some reason I can not view your channel.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79
I agree I used to live there. The alsacian, ethnically speaking, is a germanic type of people. Now that doesnt mean they are germans but they are germanic. all the city names, people's last names are so german, street names, food, house styles...they are originally a germanic type of people you cant deny that. Now after all the messed up history there might /must be french influnce to the culture so now the culture is a mix of both. They physically look Germanic too.(nose and structu
igusan 9 months ago
@Elsass79 There is also a 1991 book on the "Saverne affair" that I read. That incident was sparked by a Prussian lieutenant who became very angry upon seeing the French word for chicken on a restaurant menu in Saverne. He also struck a lame cobbler with his sword for laughing at him.
Why have the Alsatians abandoned the Alsatian language? because of French Govt. linguistic oppression? perhaps. But if the German govt. could not stamp out Polish or Danish...how did the French Govt. do it?
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel To this I can quickly respond: the French gov. has a very insidious language politics. It just negates any minority or cultural diversity in France. From 1918, from one day to another, the language of instruction at school was suddenly switched from German to French, though the pupils didn't understand one word of it! Only teachers who could adapt were kept, others were fired. All newspapers, everything in German was banned.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79
It was the same in Lille. My ex(alsacian)'s mom is chiti from near lille. THey are really looked down upon by the 'french.' and their native language is some flamish(?) kinda north language(chiti) anyways she told me when she went to school if she spoke chiti she'd get spanked.(she's only 50 now so thats not too long ago) but since she spoke it at home she can still speak chiti. But my ex grew up in alsace and only speaks a few sentences of alsacian now i think its soooooo sad .
igusan 9 months ago
@EdwardRommel But Alsatian resisted and there was a very strong autonomistic movement between WW1 and WW2. Unfortunately then came Nazi barbaria, and Alsace suffered a lot from it. So I guess peoples became tired of fighting for their rights. France made the Alsatians feel inferior if they would speak their language, and so a lot decided to educate their children only in French. But a lot of (old) Alsatian still speak the alsatian dialect today.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 I was re-reading "The Submerged nationalities of the German Empire " by Ernest Barker at archive,org.
Here's what he had to say about the "autonomist" party in 1915...on page 42
"the more moderate section in which the Govt. placed its hope was the 'autonomist' party which had its chief seat in the Protestant part of Alsace. Unlike the 'protesters' who were simply intransigent, the autonomists were willing to recognize the fait accompli. but ...wanted A-L as a German state"
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79
All people should speak their local languages and just speak the official one in school. It's totally possible to be fluent in two languages without accent if you do it since you were born!
Yes france thinks it is the best and lots of young alsacians refuse to speak alsacians because it's not hip(propaganda)... so sad.
If you go to the villages in France lots of old people only speak alsacian and german.
igusan 9 months ago
Respond to this video... In fact lots of bankers in alsace have to know german because the rich wine makers, the old ones are so rich they only want to speak alsacian or german(since when they were born it was still germany) and they dont speak french that well so when they go to the banks if you want to get their money you better speak something they understand.
igusan 9 months ago
@EdwardRommel They just do not see anymore the connection to written german (Hochdeutsch). But I have the feeling that this is evolving. The new generation knows much its true history and is much more interested in preserving its identity. As a proof, the first autonomistic representative since more than 80 years has been elected a few weeks ago in Alsace!
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 About the 1911 Constitution for Alsace-Lorraine...Barker says on pg. 52 "Only a single deputy from Alsace-Lorraine voted for this Constitution. The rest were in the minority of 93 which voted for its rejection."....but the majority of the German Reichstag did vote to approve the Constitution for Alsace.
For an explanation of why the Alsatian delegates all voted to reject the Constitution read Barker's book pages 49-52.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@EdwardRommel I only know that the 7 deputies from the Zentrum Elsaß-Lothringen party voted against as a sign of protest because they were disappointed not to obtain the same rights as the other German states, even if actually they were conscious this was a big step forward. In fact, there was for Alsatians much more rights for self-administration with this imperfect constitution than today in French Alsace.
Elsass79 10 months ago
@Elsass79 I read somewhere that Hitler once commented on Berlin's excessive control over German society during the 2nd Reich. He commented that "you needed Berlin's permission to put up a street lamp"
There is an excellent 427 page book at archive,org called "The German Empire" from 1913 by Burt Howard PHD.
If you want an analysis of the German Empire by a German American PHD you can read "Government and Politics of the German Empire" by Fritz Kruger from 1915....380 pages.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 "there was for Alsatians much more rights for self-administration...."
France, like USA, Britain, Canada, Belgium, Holland, Norway, etc were considered to be "democratic states"
Germany during 2nd Reich was definately not considered a "democratic state". If you read those two books I referenced on the German Empire you will see why that is.
It is true that the Reichstag did have universal suffrage for all males over 25 years old. But the Reichstag had no legislative powers
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 this is really getting into Political Science but basically the German Empire was very autocratic...almost fuedalistic in many ways.
The Reichstag could not initiate legislation. It could only vote yay or nay on legislation that the upper house(bundesrat) sent down to it. Also it could not amend the German Constitution without a 2/3majority vote in the Bundesrat...which Prussia controlled more than 50% of.
Prussia had a 3 circle voting system based upon how much you paid in taxes
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79 So under that 1911 Constitution, the Kaiser appointed the 3 Alsatian members of the Bundesrat...and Alsace like all the other German states had no real power in the Reichstag.
But in Alsace you had two local parliaments...an upper house and a lower house. There again in the upper house, the Kaiser appointed about 1/2 of the reps...and the upper house had control over the lower house in Strasbourg.
So effectively the kaiser ruled Alsace...not the Alsatians and not the Reichstag.
EdwardRommel 10 months ago
@Elsass79
I would love to see that but as a foreigner living in alsace i see the local identity and language being washed out by French nationalism and pop culture. Young people raarely speak alsactian just one or two sentences and I have a geeling the language will die out. Hopefully not tho. I think the french goverment should really stop supressing all the native languages of each region.
igusan 9 months ago
@Lucicluc Bien sûr que vous êtes bête, l'Alsace est alsacienne c'est tout ! :p
Son Histoire est particulière, et mes sources sont que je suis Alsacien et je m'intéresse beaucoup à l'Histoire de ma région... Renseignes-toi un peu également de ton côté, tu verras que l'Alsace a toujours été animée par une volonté d'indépendance, notamment avec la Constitution d'Alsace-Moselle et son Parlement qui offraient une certaine indépendance vis-à-vis de l'Empire allemand.
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@Lucicluc Tssss tu es toujours aussi ridicule à enfermer l'Alsacien dans une bulle germanique alors que des influences franciques sont non négligeables ! La langue est quelquechose de local et je me considère plus proche linguistiquement d'un Bâlois que d'un Berlinois !!
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn tu as bien prouvé de ne pas avoir des arguments ... LOL ! Ou sont tes sources? Moi je ne conteste pas les influences "franciques" ou même "francaises" n'importe quoi, lol. Mais quant à la langue: l'Alsace est tout à fait ALLEMANDE.
Et moi je ne suis pas allemand, je suis luxembourgeois. Je te dis que l'Allemagne est plus noble que la France, d'un niveau presqu'incomparable !
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc
In 1871 all of the representatives from Alsace read a protest of the German Empire's annexation of Alsace in Bordeaux where the French Govt. had fled to after the war of 1870.
In 1874 all of newly elected representatives to the Reichstag read a proclamation in the Reichstag protesting the annexation.
Colmar mayor Abbe Wetterle wrote a book in 1918 about his experiences called "Behind the Scenes in the Reichstag" at archive,org. It's a rather negative view of German Empir
EdwardRommel 1 year ago
@Lucicluc Tu peux trouver l'Allemagne plus noble que la France, mais ne modifie pas l'Histoire : les Alsaciens ont toujours préféré la France à l'Allemagne ! Au moment de l'annexion de 1871, plus 70 000 Alsaciens sont partis et plus de 40 000 Allemands ont émigré en Alsace...
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn Les Allemands sont les "boches", les occupants qui prennent l'Alsace pour leur vitrine ouest ! En 1918 les drapeaux français et alsaciens (rot un wiss) fleurissaient partout, par contre le centralisme jacobino-parigot à malheureusement fait des ravages culturels et linguistiques...
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn Au moment de l'annexion de l'Alsace en 1940 les Alsaciens étaient très loin de la joie et de la liesse, c'était plutôt l'évacuation pour fuir les Allemands ! Et si les Alsaciens sont de vrais Allemands, pourquoi les autorités militaires qui les incorporaient de force les envoyaient quasi systématiquement sur le front russe ?
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn
En 19ième siècle, être "membre" de France ne signifaiit pas encore d'être obligé de s'identifier comme 'francophone'. Ca c'est la différence. Jusqu'à 1939, les alsaciens ont largement rejeté la culture et la langue française. En fait, les francophiles dominateurs à Paris devraient établir une statue pour l'oncle Adolf parce qu'il a offert aux français une parfaite opportunité pour franciser la population. L'alsace est GERMANOPHONE de souche ...
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc Tout à fait, je n'ai jamais dit le contraire ! Je dénonce continuellement le "génocide" culturel et linguistique du jacobinisme parisien, et ça ne concerne pas que l'Alsace mais toutes les régions françaises comme la Bretagne, le pays Basque, etc...
L'Alsace est germanophone de souche ? C'est quoi la souche ? Les Alamands ? Les Celtes ?
L'Alsace est française et germanique, point. Il est ridicule d'insister plus sur la germanisme que personne ne nie !
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@MekItBurn
A propos, moi j'ai connu 2 personnes alsatiennes (donc avec un passeport français) qui détestent la France est se sentent au premier lieu allemands. Aussi sur internet on peut trouver des paroles négatives vis à vis des français. comme p.e. "nos noms sont allemands, nos villages sont allemands ... mais on nous a volé notre langue". Ici sur youtube il y a un vidéo ou un alsacien dit "un bon alsacien est presque pour la moité un allemand"
Lucicluc 1 year ago
@Lucicluc Vous généralisez à partir de votre exemple ? Venez en Alsace et faites un sondage, vous verrez les résultats... Moi j'y suis né et j'y vis toujours, alors ne venez pas me donner la leçon avec vos lectures et vos maigres expériences personnelles !
Jamais je n'ai nié la double-culture de l'Alsace, française et allemande, par contre je serais toujours contre le pangermanisme d'une minorité de nationalistes germanophiles !
MekItBurn 1 year ago
@Lucicluc bordel c'est pas possible ! t'as trouvé 2 cons qui sucent les allemands et tous les Alsaciens sont du coup allemand, je suis alsacien et la majorité sont fiers d'etre francais et europeens. C'est pas parce que les Alsacos vont au Kaufland faire leurs commissions et se baigner au Caracalla qu'on est pro germanique, on est en 2011 plus en 45 alors les conneries de clichés à la con sur les alsaciens c'est pour ceux qui ne connaissent rien à l'Alsace et toi visiblement tu n'y connait rien.
chrisgigi67 2 months ago