So bgbib, I suspect that your degree is a worthless piece of paper from a degree mill and your IQ is from a test from one of Youtube's ads. They aren't? Then prove that you did graduate. Give me some verifiable documentation.
@SocraticFox - "I suspect your degree is a worthless piece of paper from a degree mill..."
You suspected wrong. I gaduated from the University of Edinburgh (UK) with a bachelor of science (Hons in Molecular Biology) in Biological Sciences, 1988. I emigrated to Canada in 1994 where I now teach in my field. And your qualifications are, exactly?
''But it won't make much of a difference to militant homosexuals and their supporters who loudly demand the right to practise their deviant sexual acts whenever, wherever, and to whom ever they like without limit or restriction.''
Sorry but this is the United States, not Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia. You have no right to dictate what others do with your junk science
@SocraticFox - "You have no right to dictate what others do with your junk science.'
I give you hard medical facts from government sources and you call it junk science? Nice try. I am not the one dictating - but GBLTs are. They want marriage deconstructed to accommodate their lifestyle, they want access to our kinds classrooms, they want to silence anyone who dares to question them and their motives. THEY are the ones who want it all their own way.
@mermaidsareppl222 - "they are americans, who are wanting equal rights."
They already HAVE equal rights. The question is, why should marriage be deconstructed to satsfy the demands of a vocal minority group? What is being sought here is a "right" that nobody has had previously had before. This is clearly not an "equality" or a "civil rights' issue. Heterosexual people can’t marry someone of the same sex either. In both cases, each individual is treated exactly the same by the law....
@mermaidsareppl222 - Who cares about Kim Kardashian or Sinead O'Conner? So the behavior of a few irresponsible hetrosexual women who marry for mere days is a golden example of why marriage should be opened to a tiny minority group of self-obsessed sexual deviants? I think not. besides, who is to say that those who advocate bestiality, polygamy and even child-marriage will not start demanding their "rights" too?
@mermaidsareppl222 - Homosexuals have full rights (including marriage) in Denmark, South Africa, Canada, the UK, etc. Marriage was established long before governments and churches. It was and always has been the joining of one man and one women for the procreation and raising of children for the perpetuation of society. Just because straights have made a mess of marriage does not make it right to change the definition just to include a vocal minority group.....
@mermaidsareppl222 - So this is not a moral issue? same-sex marriage, is the ultimate legal sanctioning of homosexual behavior, which is why queers demand it. And as we have seen in Canada, for example, it has brought a wave of intolerance on the civil liberties of those who publicly express disapproval of homosexual practice. Already we are seeing individuals and organizations dragged into our so-called "human rights"courts, which endangers MY right to freedom of expression....
@mermaidsareppl222 - "they want it their way, which is not the american way."
No GBLTs, a mere 3.8% of the population in total, want it THEIR way, which is unconstitutional. Why should they dictate to the majority? GBLTs have the freedom to do all the things that married people do – pledge their love, live together, share their lives…etc. But the State does not recognise that relationship. It will not licence it, privilege it or control it. Why? Because it has no reason to do so...
@mermaidsareppl222 - Bingo! marriage is a privilege, not a "right." So this whole debate about "rights" doesn't jive when it cvomes to opening marriage to same-sex couples. This is not about equality of rights but rather a restructure of culture so that there is complete public and official government approval of homosexuality. Anyone who dares to object to same-sex marriage or homosexual culture is branded a bigot, a homophobe or even a hate monger. Queers are the real bigots here..
@mermaidsareppl222 - "so tell me, are homosexuals trying to deny you equal rights?"
They want to silence all voices that disagree with them, get access to all public schools and have their "lifestyle" pushed into every facet of society. They want to recruit young people (since they can't reproduce), shut down churches that don't "bless" same-sex unions, and drag their critics into "human rights" courts (Canada). Read the Pink Swastika by Michael Swift...
@mermaidsareppl222 - "they had no reason to licence privlidge or control interracial marriage, yet that was legalized. "
And this is precisely why blacks hate the struggle for their civil rights being compared to homosexuality. People are born with black skin, but there is not a jot of medical or scientific evidence to support GBLTs being "born that way." 70% of black voters and 50% of Latino voters in CA supported Proposition 8.
@bgibb101 a lot of voter who voted for prop h8 actually meant to vote no, but because of the confusion of the question (they thought yes meant they wanted gay marriage, no to ban it) they supported discrimination
@mermaidsareppl222 - Proposition 8 should have stood. This is not a question of "rights," but a question of, should we allow a tiny minority group of people to push their own self-serving agenda onto society? But one black robed little homosexual Hitler thought he knew better and told 7 million Califronians that he is taking their votes away. Walker is a homosexual and KNEW that by shooting down Proposition 8, he and his homosexual lover would benefit in the long run.
@mermaidsareppl222 - Walker's decision was unjust and plain wrong to overturn Prop 8. This proposition was meant to give the people of the state a choice to make marriage law for only a man and a woman. Since this is the meaning of marriage, allowing homosexual people the right to marry would be a violation. This has NOTHING to do with protecting the rights of homosexuals at all. With one stroke of a pen one judge ruled over votes which men bled and died for. This is tyranny.
@mermaidsareppl222 - Countries that allow GBLTs to marry same-sex partners have seen only a fraction of them actually marry at all. The number of same-sex registered partnerships contracted in Sweden from 1995 to 2002 is only one-half of one percent of the number of opposite-sex marriages created in the same interval (7% for Norway). Yet GBLTs comprise roughly 2/3% of the population. The Netherlands has had full-fledged “gay marriage” since 2001. But only 3% of GBLTs (one out of ten) married.
A rape victim can get a disease. A person can get cancer from second hand smoke. ''can quote from many peer-reviewed medical & scientific sources about the damgers of queer sex.'' Will this before or after you can spell?
And as I said it matters not how much evidence you have, your argument is not even a valid argument and its reasoning is poor and flawed. Therefore you can quote all you want and it won't make any difference.
And furthermore bgbibb101, even if your assertion were true it would not mean that gays are immoral or that they should not get married. Having cancer gives a person medical and health issues, does that mean cancer patients are immoral? Does that mean that those with cancer should not get married? You really need to choose a better thinking process.
@SocraticFox - "You really need to choose a better thinking process." Cancer is not "immoral," but the way in which it is contract can be. In June of 2004, the journal Nursing Clinics of North America reported: “ One of the more pressing issues for gay men is anal carcinoma. Several recent studies have indicated the rate of anal dysplasia to be increasing in gay men with and without HIV. Ninety percent of gay men with HIV have the human papiloma virus (HPV).......
@SocraticFox - ...while 65% of men without HIV have HPV. HVP type 16 is the most troublesome for developing cancer and is found in a significant portion of gay men. Homosexual men's practice of anal sex has left many of them victims of anal cancer. The New England Journal of Medicine wrote: "Our study lends strong support to the hypothesis that homosexual behavior in men increases the risk of anal cancer by 1.6 per cent above the national average........
@SocraticFox - Those who contract cancer through heavy smoking and/or drinking are equally as guilty of bringing death unto themselves. I can quote from many peer-reviewed medical & scientific sources about the damgers of queer sex. But it won't make much of a difference to militant homosexuals and their supporters who loudly demand the right to practise their deviant sexual acts whenever, wherever, and to whom ever they like without limit or restriction.
Therefore I will ask you again for HARD SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that being gay is wrong. Faith, the command of a god, a scripture verse, a belief etc, is NOT evidence. Thus you have not given me any hard proof, instead you merely parroted the beliefs of a church. THINK FOR YOURSELF! Don't let a church think for you.
@SocraticFox - The medical evidence for GBLT mental & physical health issues (not to mention a shortened life span) is proof enough. Just visit the CDC website for the facts.
Sorry to burst your bubble but many people get diseases from no fault of their own. And giving yourself a disease is NOT immoral. If someone wants to do something to their body they have every right to do so. And BTW driving can get you hurt so is it immoral to drive? Having a computer can get your ID stolen so is it immoral to have a computer? Welcome to Earth. Anything can harm you, So by your ''logic'' everyone is immoral, including you
@SocraticFox - Driving a car? Using a computer? Dodging the issue again are we? This exchange involves 2% of the population who are repsonsible for 61% of all new HIV/AIDS cases annually. 21% of all Hepatitis B cases in 2010 were among gays, while 18% were heterosexually transmitted. Since gay men are a mere 2% the population (GBLTs are 3.8% in total), they have a significantly higher rate of infection than heterosexuals. Guess they don't care about "safe sex."
Junk science because you are taking real science and using it to support your biased and invalid argument. Junk science because you cherry pick at gays yet ignore that all actions can bring harm on the actor. Do you get it? YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID! Which means that you can quote all of the studies you want, it still does not establish that your conclusion is true. Logic 101
@SocraticFox - The facts are in. homosexuals are responsible for 61% of all new HIV/AIDS cases annually in the USA - yet they are a mere 2% of the population. They also contract anal cancer at ten times the rate than heterosexual men, including Hepatitis A, Giardia lamblia, Entamoeba histolytica, Epstein-Barr virus, Neisseria meningitides, Shigellosis, Salmonellosis, Pediculosis, scabies and Campylobacter. Ever heasrd of "gay bowel syndrome?" It called that because it affects homosexuals...
@SocraticFox - Even going back to 1991, The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) identified a 1991 outbreak of Hepatitis A in New York City, in which 78% of male respondents identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual. By 2010, the CDC reported that the rate of primary and secondary syphilis among homosexual & bisexual men was more than 46 times that of heterosexual men. GBLTs now lose 13-20 years off their lifespans due to SDTs and AIDS which is now running rampant among them.
Like I said. Your argument is not valid. Now if you will excuse me I have another user to debate, one who happens to have an IQ above his shoe size. Ta Ta :)
@SocraticFox - "one who happens to have an IQ above his shoe size."
So - You have nothing of any value to add to this exchange except to ignore medical facts and make childish comments. I have IQ of 167 and a degree in molecular genetics. How about you?
''167 and a degree in molecular genetics. How about you? ''
I find that very hard to believe given your ignorance. I find it hard that you have that sort of degree and that sort of IQ and yet you don't even understand validity. You could have all the degrees and all of the IQ points and that does not make you right nor does it make you more credible than anyone else. A degree does not save someone from being a fool.
@SocraticFox - Perhaps Gay author Gabriel Rotello put it best when he wrote; “Gay liberation was founded . . . on a sexual brotherhood of promiscuity, and any abandonment of that promiscuity would amount to a communal betrayal of gargantuan proportions." I appreciate his honesty. Gay liberation has nothing to do with "rights" but about their addiction to degenerate sex acts that often kills many of them because such quaint notions like "monogamy" and "safe sex" mean absolutely nothing to them.
@SocraticFox - So why are we wasting our time spending millions of tax dollars on promoting safe sex among queers, when they just don't care? All they really want is the freedom of do what they want, when they want, how they want, to whomever they want, without restriction, and to silence all dissenting voices. Regardless of the ever-increasing costs to our healthcare premiums, GBLTs will get sicker, live shorter lives and keep pushing up the HIV?AIDS rates. And you think they are "normal?"
Saying "God said this, god commanded that, god's purpose is this" is not an answer nor evidence. You already have a burden of proof on the subject of homosexuality. By bringing god and his will into the matter, you are only putting a bigger burden on yourself and shifting the subject. If god said child molestation was right that would not make it right. Therefore even if there is a god and he said being gay is wrong, that does not mean that it is wrong.
fear not mormons, u r not alone the other (most) religions share with you in being hatemongers however u do have the monopoly of being racist towards the black community in discriminating against them from full members (in the past) somethng you shared in common with the KKK--proud to have had that with them in common. NO DECENT person can be mormon. you will have to reconcile/rationalise your hatred and bigotry if you remain in mormon hatemonger church. peace be upon u,the atheist-i hate not
it's even a sadder world when you have religions teaching hatred (and not love which they're supposed to be about) and they (the mormon church) substantiates this hatred.by wasting x amount of dollars for hatred (prop 8) when they could of used that money for a noble cause--the poor did not their jesus say 'i was hungry and you fed me... ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:36. THE ATHEIST
people just need to stop bitching and whining, first of all lets be real. marriage is not sacred. 60% end in divorce? interesting.
and second, im so sick of people using religion for this shit, god loves everyone (or so ive heard from every religios person i know) so STFU and stop trying to act you know what god would want.
Since reproduction is a non issue and is irrelevant, there is no rational reason to believe homosexuality is wrong. There are many orphans who would happily choose a gay couple to live with than live in an orphanage. Also if st8 marriage is so sacred and sanctified by god then why do half of them end in divorce? A family is a family, gay or str8. Love is love gay or str8. I have gay friends and I like them just they way they are and who they are.
7 billion people in the world, reproduction ought to be the least of our priorities. Also what about str8 couples that cannot procreate due to infertility and other issues? Also why can't two gays and an adopted kid be a family? The issue of family seems very irrelevant to homosexuality itself because a gay may be single. Also you say gay sex is wrong and so are gay families but what is the reason for this? Why does the church think it?
@Pilgrim812 You nailed it. That's exactly what happened...plus the Catholic leadership [bishops and archbishops] knew their legitimacy is tenuous due to the abuse scandals.. therefore they used the Mormons to lead the Prop8 crusade against gay people. And they linked up with the Fundie religious wing nuts and the anti-gay groups too. To pass Prop8.
Shame on the Mormon LDS Church and members for their jihad against gay peoples' efforts to obtain the equal protection of our marriage laws; full equality, freedom, dignity, and respect.
@chadro85 Then what to do you call Prop8 and the Mormon church and members huge effort of money and logistics and people that worked hard to deny a group of people: their neighbors, relatives, friends the equal protection of California's civil marriage law? How about if gay people did the same to Mormons? Work hard and spend huge amounts of money to deny by law civil marriage to Mormons? What would you call that? Or any group, any law? Left handed people can't vote? Tell me. Love?
@seahorse05 well actually they did. back in the 1800's people were killed and kicked out of state to state just for being mormon, joesph smith went to jail many, many times when he didn't do anything wrong, he died in a jail for crimes he didn't even commit. or even come close. but anyways we don't hate the gays. We DO NOT hate the gays!
@chadro85 So i can understand your point. You are saying that .. about 150 yrs. ago joseph smith and his mormon followers were persecuted; discriminated against; treated not as equals; denied freedoms; jailed unjustly; ....anything else? Is that right?
@chadro85 really? then why is the number one supporter of the proposition to ban gay marriage and make gays second class citizens mormons (either the church itself or its supporters)?
@Pilgrim812 the church doesn't deny peoples marriage. (we many don't like gay marriage, because marriage is somthing special. not to be changed, etc) we don't hate gay people, not a bit. we even teach gay people as well, we should love all people, no matter what. wheather they've commited crimes, done wrong to us, what-ever. it doesn't matter
@chadro85 Your position is indefensible. I have been angry about this since nov.
04, 2008 and I get even more enraged as time goes on. Your side made a choice
to malign, slander and hurt the lives of people you don't even know. Your side stepped into the public square and funded a campaign of demogougery exploiting the fears
and predjudices of the rank and file voter. Your self-righteous dogmatic position is
indefensible! See you in court, the U.S. Supreme Court.
@Pilgrim812 first off before i start talking to you i would ask you just summer down you replys to just 1 comment at a time please. after a whie it gets really confusing and annoying when you reply 2 or 3 times to one comment.
also we don't wish to hurt anyone. we try our best to love all people. just as jesus does.
@chadro85 Marriage changes. Lakota chief Crazy Horse had one or two male
spouse(s) and MANY other Native American nations also had same-sex
marriages. In 17th century Fukian Province China, equal marriages
between gay men were common. In West Africa, woman marriage[s] practiced by many nations. 1552: In the "History of the Indies," Francisco Lopez de Gomara documents men are marrying other men in the Indies. 2nd Century AD Roman emperor Elagabalus married male athlete Aurelius Zoticus.
@seahorse05 sorry i think you missed my point (plus i didn't have enough chars to get it all in) see marriage is a very special thing to us. (and family i should add)
@chadro85 And now in 2008 the Mormon church leadership led their flock and the flock's money to change California civil marriage law and write discrimination into the California Constitution. This effort used TV ads spreading fear and loathing of gay people. The referendum passed and gay people were made unequal, less freedom, ....gay people were persecuted. How could Mormons who experienced discrimination in past then turn around and go after gay people's freedom to marry equally?
@chadro85 How dare you consider yourself and your religion and your families "SPECIAL" and turn around and kick gay people in the teeth. And deny gay couples and their families and children the equal protection of civil marriage. Do you know the difference between civil marriage that ONLY is valid from the state and religious wedding ceremonies which are not in any way a requirement for civil marriage?
@chadro85 What don't you understand? What if gay people said marriage is "special" to us [gay people], in California got a referendum on the ballot ..spent a lot of money spreading fear of the LDS menace and got it passed so Mormons could not get a civil marriage license and certificate. Would you call it love?
@chadro85 And don't you think to the lesbian and gay couples who got married or want to now...that "marriage is a very special thing to" [them] (and [their families] i should add)"
How dare you consider yourself and your religion and your families "SPECIAL" and turn around and kick gay people in the teeth.
@seahorse05 look we don't hate the gays ok. how many times must i say this. its just obviously a man+man or woman+woman can't reproduce. i mean that just fact they can't and even when they find a way to have kids. its still agenst the ways of ours that we beileve in.
@chadro85 Plenty of gay and lesbian couples have children. And procreation is NOT a marriage requirement. I know plenty of str8 married couples that either don't have children or can't "procreate... so you can quit that attempt to find an out.
@seahorse05 again i don't know how many times i must say this, PLEASE don't reply 3 or 4 times to one comment, i mean look if you don't understand how EXTREMELY confusing and annoying this is, i can start doing the same back to you. (or in fact if you do start again i will just start) now back on topic. : why and how marriage is special to us. (because i think you just don't get the point yet!)
What don't you understand? What if gay people said marriage is "special" to us [gay people] in California & got a referendum on the ballot ..spent a lot of money spreading fear of the LDS menace and got it passed so Mormons could not get a civil marriage license and certificate. Would you call it love?
I'm not buying your dodge answer: "marriage is special to us"
That isn't a valid answer to what many LDS members and Church leaders did to their gay California neighbors.
@mermaidsareppl222 no its not that we don't want them to have rights. its just we really want everyone to go to heaven, and have familys, kids etc. now i know gay familys can adopt kids which is fine. but they them selves can not have kids (make babys) and we don't think gay marriage should be legaly allowed as actual marriage. we do actually teach gay people.
(btw i really don't mean to offened you in anyway)
@chadro85 what do you teach them? Either stop being what you were born to be (homosexual) or we'll hate you (except we will deny what is clearly hate is not hate) and treat you like second class citizens?
@mermaidsareppl222 nope we teach them the gospel of jesus christ just like everyone eles.
look we love all man, (in other words we Do Not Hate Anyone!) just as jesus did. and we don't want to deny them of there rights. we just think homosexual sex isn't right.
It is a cult because it is a group that prohibits its members from thinking critically or for themselves. Critical thinking of church doctrines is the unforgivable sin. The church also preached that blacks could not join and still discriminates on the basis of sex and sexual orientation. Also is there any evidence that homosexuality is wrong?
@SocraticFox we have somthing called free agentsy. meaning we have the right to chose what we want. i think alot of people these days try to tell me that the church trys control you. which they do not. we have the right to chose the right and get blessings or chose the wrong and get noting.
infact if the church controled us it would be agenst the whole reason god put us on earth. (and p.s we do believe homosexuality is immoral yes)
Did we have free agency before we came here according to your understanding of the lds doctrine? And why exactly is homosexuality immoral? As in what evidence is there to believe that it is?
@SocraticFox i'm not sure if we had free agency before. (i think they kinda did, but they didn't call it that..maybe) now we find homosexuality immoral many because of the sex. (you know like man puts it in with other men etc) and also we believe in having family. now of course gays can adopt kids. but they can't actually ever make babys themselves. and it also goes agenst how familys should be we think (i can explane more in a minute)
I am going to use gayness to refer to being gay and gay sexual relations just to shorten things. Also I don't mean any offense so I will apologize in advance but I am asking why You believe gayness is immoral, not why the church believes so. I am challenging you to think for yourself and not let a church or a bible think for you; not that I believe or suspect that you are not thinking for yourself. I just want to know your reasons
@SocraticFox (btw i'm being honest to. really infact i even thohght this same way when i was anti-mormon. it really is how i think of it. even tho the church takes to it in a simular way) i think its immoral mostly because of homosexuals, sex. you know like men putting their parts in other men, woman doing the things they do with each other (i'm not going to get into detail with them tho lol) etc. that kind of thing.
@SocraticFox (btw i'm being honest to. really infact i even thohght this same way when i was anti-mormon. it really is how i think of it. even tho the church takes to it in a simular way) i think its immoral mostly because of homosexuals, sex. you know like men putting their parts in other men, woman doing the things they do with each other (i'm not going to get into detail with them tho lol) etc. that kind of thing.
Funny how Mormons are quick to block those who think differently or critically evaluated ask hard questions. It is a sign that their faith is not as strong as they think it is and just maybe their beliefs and claims are false.
@SocraticFox yeah you did you said "Funny how Mormons are quick to block those who think differently or critically evaluated ask hard questions". which is wrong. i didn't block him. and i havn't aproved his comments on my channel in the past, not because they're true. but they're right out mean and hateful. (and lots of personal attacks that kind of thing, (kinda like what trolls do) but anyways its not really your buissness because you don't even know what going on. (tbc on the gay part)
@SocraticFox oh yeah now back to why we (or i) think "gayness" immoral. i (you wanted to know why i think this right?) i think it is immoral, just because of the sex. you know like one man putting his parts into other men etc. (i don't really want to get into what women do lol, but i'm sure you probably know)
@SocraticFox are you looking for evidence like this? i think it it is immoral because of men doing it with other men, or women doing it with other women, etc or are asking for more evidence supporting that?
Yes. arguing that being gay is immoral due or in relation to the sex is a non-sequitur. Not to mention it is question begging and therefore an invalid chain of reasoning
@SocraticFox well we believe god put us on earth for a few reasons. to test us through trials, to teach us and have a family (which is also kind of a part of teaching us) homosexuality mixes in with that in different ways for us. like for example with think marriage is different to us than others for a few reasons, like we wait till we are marryed to have sex and have children. now on a side note a i used to think having (tbc) (btw just so you know tbc=to be continued)
Again, refer to my comment about 7 billion people that I sent you a few days ago. The thing about family is irrelevant. What about str8 gays? Also saying that "god said so" or "god's purpose" is not evidence. All you are doing is reasserting your position without proof and further more the claims of god and church doctrines are extraordinary claims and therefore each requires extraordinary evidence and thus you are only increasing the amount of evidence you need.
@mermaidsareppl222 first off thats not the truth at all i've let other people talk on religion on my channel before. its even there on the first page
i don't let you talk on my channel because your a right out troll (no offence) but you are. look i let other people talk on my page because they're nice, they don't make random personal attacks on myself unlike you do if you were nice and didn't try to comment like a troll i would aprove your comments p.s i'm not a hater, you just can't listen
''didn't i already give it to you in past comments? (like on page 2?)''
This isn't evidence. I already responded to this comment twice. Go back to page two to read my response. We have 7 billion people, reproduction is not necessary and with 7 billion people the last thing that we should be worried about is reproduction. Also what about str8 couples that cannot reproduce naturally? And "god said so" isn't an answer nor evidence.
@seahorse05 and also btw please stop replying 3 or 4 times to one comment, i mean i think i already asked you this and as you can see. i just made an example of how confusing and annoying it can get when this happens. please just summer down your comment replys to 1 at a time
I feel that the Normans need rough interrogation to see if they did the illegal actions. I feel that this is just like the salem witch trials accusing innocent people of bad things.
-- Why would you threaten violence against missionaries who only politely ask to share their stories with you? If you don't want to hear them, just ask them to leave.
Any Mormon missionary out knocking doors now was in high school when Prop 8 passed, and most are absolutely ignorant of their Church's actions. Be angry at the people who gave money and at the leaders who organized this mess, but leave the kids alone.
@hanohanonacowboy You're right, I wouldn't knock out their teeth. I can guarantee if I went to Salt Lake City and knocked on their doors preaching atheism or agnosticism, sooner or later they'd get violent with me.
This video is quite misleading. Most of the things they claim were paid for (Including media videos and other items) were built or donated from volunteers. If those who commented here understood how the church operates they would understand that services and programs in the LDS church are run primarily by volunteers. It should be clear that this is an issue which nearly all Mormons are prepared to volunteer and donate their means. The Church wouldn't need to pay the bill on this at all.
@abundanceinall The Church paid for a website called "preservingmarriage".
It paid for numerous slick ads you can see right here on YouTube by searching for the same name.
It donated tax-exempt tithing funds directly to the Prop 8 campaign, filed a "Major Donor Campaign Statement" with the California Sec. of State and lied about the amount until after the election. As a result it is the only church in 161 years of California history to be fined by the State for beraking our election laws.
The Church pays for many materials to promote marriage on a regular basis. These should not be considered part of an exclusive campaign against Prop 8. I would be very surprised to see some of the other materials (for example a fine imposed on the church.) you are talking about.
@abundanceinall The ads easily found here on YouTube were specific to Prop 8. They were clearly campaign ads--every one used the exact words "Vote Yes on Proposition 8"--and every one was bought with funds that had a religious tax exemption, money real churches use to help the poor.
A few of these are here; you can follow their links for others:
@abundanceinall Of course you would be surprised to read about the fine imposed on the Church for breaking our election laws if you never looked in the first place; it's my experience that Mormons tend to speak first on this issue and gather facts later.
YouTube will not permit posting a direct link to the report, but you may simply google "LDS church fined prop 8" to find several pages of links to the story from news organizations as diverse as the Washington Post and the Deseret News.
@abundanceinall If you attend church regularly and live in the Western US, you will have seen the satellite broadcast from the First Presidency to all LDS churches in 5 western states in June, 2008, urging saints to contribute their money and time to the Prop 8 campaign. Anti-8 organizations also made similar pleas to their supporters, but every penny they spent came from taxed money and every building they used had property tax paid on it, taxes the LDS Church is entirely exempt from.
@abundanceinall You may also look at the slick campaign website "preservingmarriage (dot) org" if you truly believe that Church-produced materials "should not be considered part of an exclusive campaign against Prop 8," as you have just claimed. There is nothing on the site EXCEPT campaign material. And all you have to do is scroll to the bottom of the first page to see who owns it.
@abundanceinall Please do not misunderstand: your Church has every legal right to use tax-exempt tithing money to play politics, even if no other religious denomination in the country did so as a denomination.
But if you have decided to play politics instead of being a religious faith, then you should exprct to be treated like politicians. Your claim that "This video is quite misleading" is flat-out wrong. It is not misleading at all; you were simply ignorant of your Church's immoral actions.
@abundanceinall Please do not misunderstand: your Church has every legal right to use tax-exempt tithing money to play politics, even if no other religious denomination in the country did so as a denomination.
But if you have decided to play politics instead of being a religious faith, then you should exprct to be treated like politicians. Your claim that "This video is quite misleading" is flat-out wrong. It is not misleading at all; you were simply ignorant of your Church's immoral actions.
The obvious and simple point: Some of the highest leaders of the Mormon church are liars. Whether you like what they did or not concerning Prop 8, they lied about what they did. The LDS church should have its tax-exempt status stripped. Then it can do whatever it likes including oppose measures that will, in due course, establish marriage or civil unions among adults. While we're at it, a church that believes in eternal polygamy may not be the best guide to "family values" on planet earth.
True christians must do everything they can in terms of civil activity to oppose these abominable laws.Our View must be sustained with all our efforts
What Mormons have done is to stand up in front of evil with great civil courage. I hope we could have more poeple like them in my own country which has accepted the religious abomination and biological aberration of gay marriage.
First off: where did people ever get the idea of separation of church and state? Those words are not found in any part of the constitution. The first amendment merely states CONGRESS(which implies the federal Government not the states) can not pass any law favoring any religion or stomping on the rights of religions. -continued-
@FighterOfWhatsRight Obviously, you don't understand what is going on here. That's what these people are fighting for "separation of church and state". They have no problem with what you implied in your statement.. They just want the church out of the government. How would you like it if I came to your house and told you how to live????
@chanFsaeteurn But there is no need for separation of church and state. Each state should be able to decide whether they want to be a moral state or a completely religiously free state. This is how it was in the beginning with the Founders. In early American schools, Christain principles were allowed to be taught. Also, it seems more like the gay activists just want to punish the churches and force them to perform same gender marriages. What happened to the rights of states and religions?
So bgbib, I suspect that your degree is a worthless piece of paper from a degree mill and your IQ is from a test from one of Youtube's ads. They aren't? Then prove that you did graduate. Give me some verifiable documentation.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - "I suspect your degree is a worthless piece of paper from a degree mill..."
You suspected wrong. I gaduated from the University of Edinburgh (UK) with a bachelor of science (Hons in Molecular Biology) in Biological Sciences, 1988. I emigrated to Canada in 1994 where I now teach in my field. And your qualifications are, exactly?
bgibb101 1 month ago
''But it won't make much of a difference to militant homosexuals and their supporters who loudly demand the right to practise their deviant sexual acts whenever, wherever, and to whom ever they like without limit or restriction.''
Sorry but this is the United States, not Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia. You have no right to dictate what others do with your junk science
SocraticFox 1 month ago 6
@SocraticFox - "You have no right to dictate what others do with your junk science.'
I give you hard medical facts from government sources and you call it junk science? Nice try. I am not the one dictating - but GBLTs are. They want marriage deconstructed to accommodate their lifestyle, they want access to our kinds classrooms, they want to silence anyone who dares to question them and their motives. THEY are the ones who want it all their own way.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 they are americans, who are wanting equal rights
anti gay people are the ones who are trying to force them to be second class citizens
they want to change the us constitution
they want it their way, which is not the american way
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - "they are americans, who are wanting equal rights."
They already HAVE equal rights. The question is, why should marriage be deconstructed to satsfy the demands of a vocal minority group? What is being sought here is a "right" that nobody has had previously had before. This is clearly not an "equality" or a "civil rights' issue. Heterosexual people can’t marry someone of the same sex either. In both cases, each individual is treated exactly the same by the law....
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 heterosexuals can marry the consenting adults that they want to spend the rest of their life with, gays cant
not equal
how is allowing two consenting non related adults deconstructing marriage?
if anything letting people like kim kardashian (72 days) or sinead o connor (18 days) marry is doing that
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - Who cares about Kim Kardashian or Sinead O'Conner? So the behavior of a few irresponsible hetrosexual women who marry for mere days is a golden example of why marriage should be opened to a tiny minority group of self-obsessed sexual deviants? I think not. besides, who is to say that those who advocate bestiality, polygamy and even child-marriage will not start demanding their "rights" too?
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 they are destroying marriage
yet they are not being banned from marrying
name one state/country where homosexuals have equal rights (marriage) that has those legalized too
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - Homosexuals have full rights (including marriage) in Denmark, South Africa, Canada, the UK, etc. Marriage was established long before governments and churches. It was and always has been the joining of one man and one women for the procreation and raising of children for the perpetuation of society. Just because straights have made a mess of marriage does not make it right to change the definition just to include a vocal minority group.....
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 then why can infertile/old people marry? if its for "procreation/raising of children"
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - "then why can infertile/old people marry?""
Because they have had their kids AND raised them. However, infertility is a medical probel, not a moral one.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 neither is homosexuality, yet religion wants to.make it a moral issue
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - So this is not a moral issue? same-sex marriage, is the ultimate legal sanctioning of homosexual behavior, which is why queers demand it. And as we have seen in Canada, for example, it has brought a wave of intolerance on the civil liberties of those who publicly express disapproval of homosexual practice. Already we are seeing individuals and organizations dragged into our so-called "human rights"courts, which endangers MY right to freedom of expression....
bgibb101 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - "they want it their way, which is not the american way."
No GBLTs, a mere 3.8% of the population in total, want it THEIR way, which is unconstitutional. Why should they dictate to the majority? GBLTs have the freedom to do all the things that married people do – pledge their love, live together, share their lives…etc. But the State does not recognise that relationship. It will not licence it, privilege it or control it. Why? Because it has no reason to do so...
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 they want it equal rights, which is not unconstitutional
they had no reason to licence privlidge or control interracial marriage, yet that was legalized
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - Bingo! marriage is a privilege, not a "right." So this whole debate about "rights" doesn't jive when it cvomes to opening marriage to same-sex couples. This is not about equality of rights but rather a restructure of culture so that there is complete public and official government approval of homosexuality. Anyone who dares to object to same-sex marriage or homosexual culture is branded a bigot, a homophobe or even a hate monger. Queers are the real bigots here..
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 the courts would show otherwise
really? so tell me, are homosexuals trying to deny you equal rights?
if not then they are not the bigots
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
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@mermaidsareppl222 - "so tell me, are homosexuals trying to deny you equal rights?"
They want to silence all voices that disagree with them, get access to all public schools and have their "lifestyle" pushed into every facet of society. They want to recruit young people (since they can't reproduce), shut down churches that don't "bless" same-sex unions, and drag their critics into "human rights" courts (Canada). Read the Pink Swastika by Michael Swift...
bgibb101 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - "they had no reason to licence privlidge or control interracial marriage, yet that was legalized. "
And this is precisely why blacks hate the struggle for their civil rights being compared to homosexuality. People are born with black skin, but there is not a jot of medical or scientific evidence to support GBLTs being "born that way." 70% of black voters and 50% of Latino voters in CA supported Proposition 8.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 a lot of voter who voted for prop h8 actually meant to vote no, but because of the confusion of the question (they thought yes meant they wanted gay marriage, no to ban it) they supported discrimination
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - Proposition 8 should have stood. This is not a question of "rights," but a question of, should we allow a tiny minority group of people to push their own self-serving agenda onto society? But one black robed little homosexual Hitler thought he knew better and told 7 million Califronians that he is taking their votes away. Walker is a homosexual and KNEW that by shooting down Proposition 8, he and his homosexual lover would benefit in the long run.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 walker ruled the way any other judge would have, regardless of his sexuality
because it is unconstitutional
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - Walker's decision was unjust and plain wrong to overturn Prop 8. This proposition was meant to give the people of the state a choice to make marriage law for only a man and a woman. Since this is the meaning of marriage, allowing homosexual people the right to marry would be a violation. This has NOTHING to do with protecting the rights of homosexuals at all. With one stroke of a pen one judge ruled over votes which men bled and died for. This is tyranny.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101 lets say its a straight judge who does that same ruling, do you still think its wrong
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 - Countries that allow GBLTs to marry same-sex partners have seen only a fraction of them actually marry at all. The number of same-sex registered partnerships contracted in Sweden from 1995 to 2002 is only one-half of one percent of the number of opposite-sex marriages created in the same interval (7% for Norway). Yet GBLTs comprise roughly 2/3% of the population. The Netherlands has had full-fledged “gay marriage” since 2001. But only 3% of GBLTs (one out of ten) married.
bgibb101 1 month ago
A rape victim can get a disease. A person can get cancer from second hand smoke. ''can quote from many peer-reviewed medical & scientific sources about the damgers of queer sex.'' Will this before or after you can spell?
And as I said it matters not how much evidence you have, your argument is not even a valid argument and its reasoning is poor and flawed. Therefore you can quote all you want and it won't make any difference.
SocraticFox 1 month ago 5
And furthermore bgbibb101, even if your assertion were true it would not mean that gays are immoral or that they should not get married. Having cancer gives a person medical and health issues, does that mean cancer patients are immoral? Does that mean that those with cancer should not get married? You really need to choose a better thinking process.
SocraticFox 1 month ago 5
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@SocraticFox - "You really need to choose a better thinking process." Cancer is not "immoral," but the way in which it is contract can be. In June of 2004, the journal Nursing Clinics of North America reported: “ One of the more pressing issues for gay men is anal carcinoma. Several recent studies have indicated the rate of anal dysplasia to be increasing in gay men with and without HIV. Ninety percent of gay men with HIV have the human papiloma virus (HPV).......
bgibb101 1 month ago
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@SocraticFox - ...while 65% of men without HIV have HPV. HVP type 16 is the most troublesome for developing cancer and is found in a significant portion of gay men. Homosexual men's practice of anal sex has left many of them victims of anal cancer. The New England Journal of Medicine wrote: "Our study lends strong support to the hypothesis that homosexual behavior in men increases the risk of anal cancer by 1.6 per cent above the national average........
bgibb101 1 month ago
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@SocraticFox - Those who contract cancer through heavy smoking and/or drinking are equally as guilty of bringing death unto themselves. I can quote from many peer-reviewed medical & scientific sources about the damgers of queer sex. But it won't make much of a difference to militant homosexuals and their supporters who loudly demand the right to practise their deviant sexual acts whenever, wherever, and to whom ever they like without limit or restriction.
bgibb101 1 month ago
Chardo85 [[Part 3]]
Therefore I will ask you again for HARD SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that being gay is wrong. Faith, the command of a god, a scripture verse, a belief etc, is NOT evidence. Thus you have not given me any hard proof, instead you merely parroted the beliefs of a church. THINK FOR YOURSELF! Don't let a church think for you.
SocraticFox 1 month ago 3
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@SocraticFox - The medical evidence for GBLT mental & physical health issues (not to mention a shortened life span) is proof enough. Just visit the CDC website for the facts.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101
Sorry, visited and nothing of the sort found. You were saying?
SocraticFox 1 month ago 5
@bgibb101
Sorry to burst your bubble but many people get diseases from no fault of their own. And giving yourself a disease is NOT immoral. If someone wants to do something to their body they have every right to do so. And BTW driving can get you hurt so is it immoral to drive? Having a computer can get your ID stolen so is it immoral to have a computer? Welcome to Earth. Anything can harm you, So by your ''logic'' everyone is immoral, including you
SocraticFox 1 month ago 5
@SocraticFox - Driving a car? Using a computer? Dodging the issue again are we? This exchange involves 2% of the population who are repsonsible for 61% of all new HIV/AIDS cases annually. 21% of all Hepatitis B cases in 2010 were among gays, while 18% were heterosexually transmitted. Since gay men are a mere 2% the population (GBLTs are 3.8% in total), they have a significantly higher rate of infection than heterosexuals. Guess they don't care about "safe sex."
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101
Junk science because you are taking real science and using it to support your biased and invalid argument. Junk science because you cherry pick at gays yet ignore that all actions can bring harm on the actor. Do you get it? YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID! Which means that you can quote all of the studies you want, it still does not establish that your conclusion is true. Logic 101
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - The facts are in. homosexuals are responsible for 61% of all new HIV/AIDS cases annually in the USA - yet they are a mere 2% of the population. They also contract anal cancer at ten times the rate than heterosexual men, including Hepatitis A, Giardia lamblia, Entamoeba histolytica, Epstein-Barr virus, Neisseria meningitides, Shigellosis, Salmonellosis, Pediculosis, scabies and Campylobacter. Ever heasrd of "gay bowel syndrome?" It called that because it affects homosexuals...
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101
This fact is in: your argument is I N V A L I D.
So scream facts all you want. It does not do you any good.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - Even going back to 1991, The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) identified a 1991 outbreak of Hepatitis A in New York City, in which 78% of male respondents identified themselves as homosexual or bisexual. By 2010, the CDC reported that the rate of primary and secondary syphilis among homosexual & bisexual men was more than 46 times that of heterosexual men. GBLTs now lose 13-20 years off their lifespans due to SDTs and AIDS which is now running rampant among them.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101
Again. YOUR ARGUMENT IS _I N V A L I D_
So even with all of your data, your conclusion is not established. So spam away
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - "Again. YOUR ARGUMENT IS _I N V A L I D"
So you keep saying, yet you offer absolutely no alternatives other than ignore all the medical fatcs collected by medical & scien tific organizations.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@bgibb101
Like I said. Your argument is not valid. Now if you will excuse me I have another user to debate, one who happens to have an IQ above his shoe size. Ta Ta :)
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - "Your argument is not valid."
Only because you ignore the facts. I feel sorry for you....
bgibb101 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - "one who happens to have an IQ above his shoe size."
So - You have nothing of any value to add to this exchange except to ignore medical facts and make childish comments. I have IQ of 167 and a degree in molecular genetics. How about you?
bgibb101 1 month ago
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@bgibb101
''167 and a degree in molecular genetics. How about you? ''
I find that very hard to believe given your ignorance. I find it hard that you have that sort of degree and that sort of IQ and yet you don't even understand validity. You could have all the degrees and all of the IQ points and that does not make you right nor does it make you more credible than anyone else. A degree does not save someone from being a fool.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - Perhaps Gay author Gabriel Rotello put it best when he wrote; “Gay liberation was founded . . . on a sexual brotherhood of promiscuity, and any abandonment of that promiscuity would amount to a communal betrayal of gargantuan proportions." I appreciate his honesty. Gay liberation has nothing to do with "rights" but about their addiction to degenerate sex acts that often kills many of them because such quaint notions like "monogamy" and "safe sex" mean absolutely nothing to them.
bgibb101 1 month ago
@SocraticFox - So why are we wasting our time spending millions of tax dollars on promoting safe sex among queers, when they just don't care? All they really want is the freedom of do what they want, when they want, how they want, to whomever they want, without restriction, and to silence all dissenting voices. Regardless of the ever-increasing costs to our healthcare premiums, GBLTs will get sicker, live shorter lives and keep pushing up the HIV?AIDS rates. And you think they are "normal?"
bgibb101 1 month ago
Chadro85 [[Part 2]]
Saying "God said this, god commanded that, god's purpose is this" is not an answer nor evidence. You already have a burden of proof on the subject of homosexuality. By bringing god and his will into the matter, you are only putting a bigger burden on yourself and shifting the subject. If god said child molestation was right that would not make it right. Therefore even if there is a god and he said being gay is wrong, that does not mean that it is wrong.
SocraticFox 1 month ago 2
fear not mormons, u r not alone the other (most) religions share with you in being hatemongers however u do have the monopoly of being racist towards the black community in discriminating against them from full members (in the past) somethng you shared in common with the KKK--proud to have had that with them in common. NO DECENT person can be mormon. you will have to reconcile/rationalise your hatred and bigotry if you remain in mormon hatemonger church. peace be upon u,the atheist-i hate not
nicosbsm 1 month ago
it's even a sadder world when you have religions teaching hatred (and not love which they're supposed to be about) and they (the mormon church) substantiates this hatred.by wasting x amount of dollars for hatred (prop 8) when they could of used that money for a noble cause--the poor did not their jesus say 'i was hungry and you fed me... ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25:36. THE ATHEIST
nicosbsm 1 month ago
Correction: str8 gays should be single gays.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
people just need to stop bitching and whining, first of all lets be real. marriage is not sacred. 60% end in divorce? interesting.
and second, im so sick of people using religion for this shit, god loves everyone (or so ive heard from every religios person i know) so STFU and stop trying to act you know what god would want.
cckenepah 1 month ago
Since reproduction is a non issue and is irrelevant, there is no rational reason to believe homosexuality is wrong. There are many orphans who would happily choose a gay couple to live with than live in an orphanage. Also if st8 marriage is so sacred and sanctified by god then why do half of them end in divorce? A family is a family, gay or str8. Love is love gay or str8. I have gay friends and I like them just they way they are and who they are.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
7 billion people in the world, reproduction ought to be the least of our priorities. Also what about str8 couples that cannot procreate due to infertility and other issues? Also why can't two gays and an adopted kid be a family? The issue of family seems very irrelevant to homosexuality itself because a gay may be single. Also you say gay sex is wrong and so are gay families but what is the reason for this? Why does the church think it?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
Im not a grammar nazi so I don't care about spelling errors
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox thank you
chadro85 1 month ago
And can they be gay and/or deny god's existence WITHOUT ANY PENALTY?
I have a little booklet called ''principles of the gospel'' from the church that specifically states that being gay can lead to penalization
SocraticFox 1 month ago
I laugh at Mormon's being brought invited by Catholic Bishops to do the dirty work for them.
The Catholics knew as big they are, the rank and file Catholic is not bigoted enough
to financially back the measure.THE MORMONS WERE REALLY SUCKERED THIS ONE!
Pilgrim812 2 months ago
@Pilgrim812 You nailed it. That's exactly what happened...plus the Catholic leadership [bishops and archbishops] knew their legitimacy is tenuous due to the abuse scandals.. therefore they used the Mormons to lead the Prop8 crusade against gay people. And they linked up with the Fundie religious wing nuts and the anti-gay groups too. To pass Prop8.
seahorse05 2 months ago
Shame on the Mormon LDS Church and members for their jihad against gay peoples' efforts to obtain the equal protection of our marriage laws; full equality, freedom, dignity, and respect.
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 we do not hate the gays.
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 Then what to do you call Prop8 and the Mormon church and members huge effort of money and logistics and people that worked hard to deny a group of people: their neighbors, relatives, friends the equal protection of California's civil marriage law? How about if gay people did the same to Mormons? Work hard and spend huge amounts of money to deny by law civil marriage to Mormons? What would you call that? Or any group, any law? Left handed people can't vote? Tell me. Love?
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 well actually they did. back in the 1800's people were killed and kicked out of state to state just for being mormon, joesph smith went to jail many, many times when he didn't do anything wrong, he died in a jail for crimes he didn't even commit. or even come close. but anyways we don't hate the gays. We DO NOT hate the gays!
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85
I wrote, "....How about if gay people did the same to Mormons?..."
You wrote,"well actually they did...." So you are claiming as a group gay people went after Mormons and did all that stuff you claim happened?
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 ok sorry i misunderstood you. i read your comment and missed the part about "how about if ->"Gay"<- people did the same to mormons", etc.
(but yeah even tho i don't know that they were gay, all that stuff did happen to the mormons)
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 So i can understand your point. You are saying that .. about 150 yrs. ago joseph smith and his mormon followers were persecuted; discriminated against; treated not as equals; denied freedoms; jailed unjustly; ....anything else? Is that right?
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 yes, (and also we really don't hate the gays, honestly)
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 really? then why is the number one supporter of the proposition to ban gay marriage and make gays second class citizens mormons (either the church itself or its supporters)?
mermaidsareppl222 2 months ago
@chadro85 The hell you don't. Denying the right to marriage is do deny the
very legitimatcy of a persons life. the LDS church should have its 503 c status
revoked. Good luck with Romney.
Pilgrim812 2 months ago
@Pilgrim812 the church doesn't deny peoples marriage. (we many don't like gay marriage, because marriage is somthing special. not to be changed, etc) we don't hate gay people, not a bit. we even teach gay people as well, we should love all people, no matter what. wheather they've commited crimes, done wrong to us, what-ever. it doesn't matter
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 I do not accept your responce as valid. Why would anyone step
into the public square and fight such a cruel and malicious assault on the right
of others. We fought hard in court to gain that right and your side saw fight to
incite the fears and predjudice of others as demogouges. Your position is indefensible.
Pilgrim812 2 months ago
@chadro85 Your position is indefensible. I have been angry about this since nov.
04, 2008 and I get even more enraged as time goes on. Your side made a choice
to malign, slander and hurt the lives of people you don't even know. Your side stepped into the public square and funded a campaign of demogougery exploiting the fears
and predjudices of the rank and file voter. Your self-righteous dogmatic position is
indefensible! See you in court, the U.S. Supreme Court.
Pilgrim812 2 months ago
@Pilgrim812 first off before i start talking to you i would ask you just summer down you replys to just 1 comment at a time please. after a whie it gets really confusing and annoying when you reply 2 or 3 times to one comment.
also we don't wish to hurt anyone. we try our best to love all people. just as jesus does.
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 "marriage is ..not to be changed?" N
seahorse05 2 months ago
@chadro85 Marriage changes. Lakota chief Crazy Horse had one or two male
spouse(s) and MANY other Native American nations also had same-sex
marriages. In 17th century Fukian Province China, equal marriages
between gay men were common. In West Africa, woman marriage[s] practiced by many nations. 1552: In the "History of the Indies," Francisco Lopez de Gomara documents men are marrying other men in the Indies. 2nd Century AD Roman emperor Elagabalus married male athlete Aurelius Zoticus.
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 sorry i think you missed my point (plus i didn't have enough chars to get it all in) see marriage is a very special thing to us. (and family i should add)
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 So? Did anyone force any Mormons to marry someone of the same-sex?
And earlier you claimed Mormons got persecuted...denied their freedom, equality,... full citizen. W
seahorse05 2 months ago
@chadro85 And now in 2008 the Mormon church leadership led their flock and the flock's money to change California civil marriage law and write discrimination into the California Constitution. This effort used TV ads spreading fear and loathing of gay people. The referendum passed and gay people were made unequal, less freedom, ....gay people were persecuted. How could Mormons who experienced discrimination in past then turn around and go after gay people's freedom to marry equally?
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 look its not that we hate gays its like as i just said before, again and again and again. marriage is a very special thing to us.
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 How dare you consider yourself and your religion and your families "SPECIAL" and turn around and kick gay people in the teeth. And deny gay couples and their families and children the equal protection of civil marriage. Do you know the difference between civil marriage that ONLY is valid from the state and religious wedding ceremonies which are not in any way a requirement for civil marriage?
seahorse05 2 months ago
@chadro85 What don't you understand? What if gay people said marriage is "special" to us [gay people], in California got a referendum on the ballot ..spent a lot of money spreading fear of the LDS menace and got it passed so Mormons could not get a civil marriage license and certificate. Would you call it love?
seahorse05 2 months ago
@chadro85 And don't you think to the lesbian and gay couples who got married or want to now...that "marriage is a very special thing to" [them] (and [their families] i should add)"
How dare you consider yourself and your religion and your families "SPECIAL" and turn around and kick gay people in the teeth.
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 look we don't hate the gays ok. how many times must i say this. its just obviously a man+man or woman+woman can't reproduce. i mean that just fact they can't and even when they find a way to have kids. its still agenst the ways of ours that we beileve in.
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 Plenty of gay and lesbian couples have children. And procreation is NOT a marriage requirement. I know plenty of str8 married couples that either don't have children or can't "procreate... so you can quit that attempt to find an out.
seahorse05 2 months ago
@seahorse05 again i don't know how many times i must say this, PLEASE don't reply 3 or 4 times to one comment, i mean look if you don't understand how EXTREMELY confusing and annoying this is, i can start doing the same back to you. (or in fact if you do start again i will just start) now back on topic. : why and how marriage is special to us. (because i think you just don't get the point yet!)
chadro85 2 months ago
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@chadro85
What don't you understand? What if gay people said marriage is "special" to us [gay people] in California & got a referendum on the ballot ..spent a lot of money spreading fear of the LDS menace and got it passed so Mormons could not get a civil marriage license and certificate. Would you call it love?
I'm not buying your dodge answer: "marriage is special to us"
That isn't a valid answer to what many LDS members and Church leaders did to their gay California neighbors.
seahorse05 2 months ago
@chadro85 you dont hate gays, yet you dont want them having equal rights
mermaidsareppl222 2 months ago
@mermaidsareppl222 no its not that we don't want them to have rights. its just we really want everyone to go to heaven, and have familys, kids etc. now i know gay familys can adopt kids which is fine. but they them selves can not have kids (make babys) and we don't think gay marriage should be legaly allowed as actual marriage. we do actually teach gay people.
(btw i really don't mean to offened you in anyway)
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 what do you teach them? Either stop being what you were born to be (homosexual) or we'll hate you (except we will deny what is clearly hate is not hate) and treat you like second class citizens?
You clearly do want to deny them rights
since you support prop h8
mermaidsareppl222 2 months ago
@mermaidsareppl222 nope we teach them the gospel of jesus christ just like everyone eles.
look we love all man, (in other words we Do Not Hate Anyone!) just as jesus did. and we don't want to deny them of there rights. we just think homosexual sex isn't right.
chadro85 2 months ago
@chadro85 you deny them the right to marry (yes the courts have ruled it a right)
and support discriminating them, therefore it is hate
you need to quit living in denial about the truth
mermaidsareppl222 2 months ago
@chadro85
Yes your cult went to far and yes your cult preaches hate.
"homosexual sex isn't right."
Any evidence to support this?
SocraticFox 2 months ago
@SocraticFox it does not preach hate in any way! it is not a cult. we love all man ok
WE LOVE ALL MAN. you hear me let WE LOVE ALL MAN!!! just as jesus does.
(p.s WE LOVE ALL MAN lol)
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
It is a cult because it is a group that prohibits its members from thinking critically or for themselves. Critical thinking of church doctrines is the unforgivable sin. The church also preached that blacks could not join and still discriminates on the basis of sex and sexual orientation. Also is there any evidence that homosexuality is wrong?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox we do not discriminate people by sex or race. we do not preach hate, we do not "prohibit" members from critically think for themselves.
and p.s as i already said 4 times we love all man. we do not hate anyone
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
If what you are saying is true then can a female LDS member:
a) be a lesbian?
b) be a priest?
or c) Believe that parts of the LDS doctrine are false?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox
a) yes
b) kinda so.
c) yes
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Even deny the existence of god, Jesus, the holy ghost, or claim that the LDS chronology (JS or Nephi) is false?
And isn't homosexuality a sin in the LDS church, or at least immoral?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox we have somthing called free agentsy. meaning we have the right to chose what we want. i think alot of people these days try to tell me that the church trys control you. which they do not. we have the right to chose the right and get blessings or chose the wrong and get noting.
infact if the church controled us it would be agenst the whole reason god put us on earth. (and p.s we do believe homosexuality is immoral yes)
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Did we have free agency before we came here according to your understanding of the lds doctrine? And why exactly is homosexuality immoral? As in what evidence is there to believe that it is?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox i'm not sure if we had free agency before. (i think they kinda did, but they didn't call it that..maybe) now we find homosexuality immoral many because of the sex. (you know like man puts it in with other men etc) and also we believe in having family. now of course gays can adopt kids. but they can't actually ever make babys themselves. and it also goes agenst how familys should be we think (i can explane more in a minute)
chadro85 1 month ago
@SocraticFox (btw sorry if i make spelling erorrs)
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85 you obviously hate gays, you just don't want to admit it because that would make you a hypocrite
you also hate free speech as your page shows
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 i obviously don't hate anyone. i don't hate you, i don't hate anyone here and i don't hate gays. why don't you listen to me.
and btw i don't hate freedom of speech. i love it. its my rights. why does my page show it?
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
So why is "gayness" wrong according to you?
I am going to use gayness to refer to being gay and gay sexual relations just to shorten things. Also I don't mean any offense so I will apologize in advance but I am asking why You believe gayness is immoral, not why the church believes so. I am challenging you to think for yourself and not let a church or a bible think for you; not that I believe or suspect that you are not thinking for yourself. I just want to know your reasons
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox (btw i'm being honest to. really infact i even thohght this same way when i was anti-mormon. it really is how i think of it. even tho the church takes to it in a simular way) i think its immoral mostly because of homosexuals, sex. you know like men putting their parts in other men, woman doing the things they do with each other (i'm not going to get into detail with them tho lol) etc. that kind of thing.
chadro85 1 month ago
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@SocraticFox (btw i'm being honest to. really infact i even thohght this same way when i was anti-mormon. it really is how i think of it. even tho the church takes to it in a simular way) i think its immoral mostly because of homosexuals, sex. you know like men putting their parts in other men, woman doing the things they do with each other (i'm not going to get into detail with them tho lol) etc. that kind of thing.
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85 the fact you refuse to allow anyone who spread the truth on your page to post on it
youre spewing anti gay hate on this page, but you call it "love"
take your own advice and dont be a hater
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222
Funny how Mormons are quick to block those who think differently or critically evaluated ask hard questions. It is a sign that their faith is not as strong as they think it is and just maybe their beliefs and claims are false.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox ha ha funny because i didn't even block him
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
I never said you did. Now where is the evidence that gayness is wrong.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox yeah you did you said "Funny how Mormons are quick to block those who think differently or critically evaluated ask hard questions". which is wrong. i didn't block him. and i havn't aproved his comments on my channel in the past, not because they're true. but they're right out mean and hateful. (and lots of personal attacks that kind of thing, (kinda like what trolls do) but anyways its not really your buissness because you don't even know what going on. (tbc on the gay part)
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Give a quote where I said "all mormons block" or "Chadro85 blocks"
If not then you cannot accuse me of accusing you of blocking. My statement was a general statement about MOST, NOT ALL, that I have dealt with
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox ok then tell me why you made that reply you did to the person i was talking to
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Because it is true of most mormons that I have talked to.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox but why did you say that like that. when i have not blocked you or him?
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
What do you mean? I never said nor meant that you blocked him or me.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox crap i'm confused now lol. lets just forget it
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Fine. So where is the evidence that being gay is wrong?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox i just sent one to you as we got done
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85 I didn't say anything hateful or mean
just pointed out a fact or two
and you hate facts
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@SocraticFox oh yeah now back to why we (or i) think "gayness" immoral. i (you wanted to know why i think this right?) i think it is immoral, just because of the sex. you know like one man putting his parts into other men etc. (i don't really want to get into what women do lol, but i'm sure you probably know)
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Why is the sex wrong? What evidence is there that it is wrong?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox well i'm not sure i would right out say its wrong. just immoral.
so immoral eventuly = wrong.
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Then why is it immoral. What evidence is there that it is immoral
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox are you looking for evidence like this? i think it it is immoral because of men doing it with other men, or women doing it with other women, etc or are asking for more evidence supporting that?
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Yes. arguing that being gay is immoral due or in relation to the sex is a non-sequitur. Not to mention it is question begging and therefore an invalid chain of reasoning
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox well we believe god put us on earth for a few reasons. to test us through trials, to teach us and have a family (which is also kind of a part of teaching us) homosexuality mixes in with that in different ways for us. like for example with think marriage is different to us than others for a few reasons, like we wait till we are marryed to have sex and have children. now on a side note a i used to think having (tbc) (btw just so you know tbc=to be continued)
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85
Again, refer to my comment about 7 billion people that I sent you a few days ago. The thing about family is irrelevant. What about str8 gays? Also saying that "god said so" or "god's purpose" is not evidence. All you are doing is reasserting your position without proof and further more the claims of god and church doctrines are extraordinary claims and therefore each requires extraordinary evidence and thus you are only increasing the amount of evidence you need.
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 first off thats not the truth at all i've let other people talk on religion on my channel before. its even there on the first page
i don't let you talk on my channel because your a right out troll (no offence) but you are. look i let other people talk on my page because they're nice, they don't make random personal attacks on myself unlike you do if you were nice and didn't try to comment like a troll i would aprove your comments p.s i'm not a hater, you just can't listen
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85 oh so only you can make the personal attacks?
If you aren't a hater then why do you support discrimination?
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 because i'm not a hatter, and i don't support discrimination
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85 you're anti gay marriage so you lied
Why don't you just admit that you are a hater, anyone with a brain can see that
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@mermaidsareppl222 i don't need to admit anything because i don't hate gays.
chadro85 1 month ago
@chadro85 so then you arent trying to make them second class citizens by denying them marriage?
mermaidsareppl222 1 month ago
@chadro85
Do you have that evidence I asked for?
SocraticFox 1 month ago
@SocraticFox didn't i already give it to you in past comments? (like on page 2?)
chadro85 1 month ago
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@chadro85 [[Part 1]]
''didn't i already give it to you in past comments? (like on page 2?)''
This isn't evidence. I already responded to this comment twice. Go back to page two to read my response. We have 7 billion people, reproduction is not necessary and with 7 billion people the last thing that we should be worried about is reproduction. Also what about str8 couples that cannot reproduce naturally? And "god said so" isn't an answer nor evidence.
SocraticFox 1 month ago 7
@seahorse05 and also btw please stop replying 3 or 4 times to one comment, i mean i think i already asked you this and as you can see. i just made an example of how confusing and annoying it can get when this happens. please just summer down your comment replys to 1 at a time
chadro85 2 months ago
I feel that the Normans need rough interrogation to see if they did the illegal actions. I feel that this is just like the salem witch trials accusing innocent people of bad things.
freimiser 3 months ago
fuck the mormon church freedom hating homo cunt faggots
edwardd6681 5 months ago
@edwardd6681 there not freedom hating
chadro85 2 months ago
Mormons suck. Joseph Smith was a pervert. Don't knock on my door or you'll eat your teeth.
THEINVENTABLETHREAT 6 months ago
@THEINVENTABLETHREAT: "Don't knock on my door or you'll eat your teeth."
-- Why would you threaten violence against missionaries who only politely ask to share their stories with you? If you don't want to hear them, just ask them to leave.
Any Mormon missionary out knocking doors now was in high school when Prop 8 passed, and most are absolutely ignorant of their Church's actions. Be angry at the people who gave money and at the leaders who organized this mess, but leave the kids alone.
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
@hanohanonacowboy You're right, I wouldn't knock out their teeth. I can guarantee if I went to Salt Lake City and knocked on their doors preaching atheism or agnosticism, sooner or later they'd get violent with me.
THEINVENTABLETHREAT 5 months ago
This video is quite misleading. Most of the things they claim were paid for (Including media videos and other items) were built or donated from volunteers. If those who commented here understood how the church operates they would understand that services and programs in the LDS church are run primarily by volunteers. It should be clear that this is an issue which nearly all Mormons are prepared to volunteer and donate their means. The Church wouldn't need to pay the bill on this at all.
abundanceinall 6 months ago
@abundanceinall The Church paid for a website called "preservingmarriage".
It paid for numerous slick ads you can see right here on YouTube by searching for the same name.
It donated tax-exempt tithing funds directly to the Prop 8 campaign, filed a "Major Donor Campaign Statement" with the California Sec. of State and lied about the amount until after the election. As a result it is the only church in 161 years of California history to be fined by the State for beraking our election laws.
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
The Church pays for many materials to promote marriage on a regular basis. These should not be considered part of an exclusive campaign against Prop 8. I would be very surprised to see some of the other materials (for example a fine imposed on the church.) you are talking about.
abundanceinall 5 months ago
@abundanceinall The ads easily found here on YouTube were specific to Prop 8. They were clearly campaign ads--every one used the exact words "Vote Yes on Proposition 8"--and every one was bought with funds that had a religious tax exemption, money real churches use to help the poor.
A few of these are here; you can follow their links for others:
watch?v=A-jc4ujp9Ok
watch?v=Y4nqtDrJI7A&feature=related
watch?v=K4tTRvmgZKM
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
@abundanceinall Of course you would be surprised to read about the fine imposed on the Church for breaking our election laws if you never looked in the first place; it's my experience that Mormons tend to speak first on this issue and gather facts later.
YouTube will not permit posting a direct link to the report, but you may simply google "LDS church fined prop 8" to find several pages of links to the story from news organizations as diverse as the Washington Post and the Deseret News.
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
@abundanceinall If you attend church regularly and live in the Western US, you will have seen the satellite broadcast from the First Presidency to all LDS churches in 5 western states in June, 2008, urging saints to contribute their money and time to the Prop 8 campaign. Anti-8 organizations also made similar pleas to their supporters, but every penny they spent came from taxed money and every building they used had property tax paid on it, taxes the LDS Church is entirely exempt from.
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
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@abundanceinall You may also look at the slick campaign website "preservingmarriage (dot) org" if you truly believe that Church-produced materials "should not be considered part of an exclusive campaign against Prop 8," as you have just claimed. There is nothing on the site EXCEPT campaign material. And all you have to do is scroll to the bottom of the first page to see who owns it.
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
@abundanceinall Please do not misunderstand: your Church has every legal right to use tax-exempt tithing money to play politics, even if no other religious denomination in the country did so as a denomination.
But if you have decided to play politics instead of being a religious faith, then you should exprct to be treated like politicians. Your claim that "This video is quite misleading" is flat-out wrong. It is not misleading at all; you were simply ignorant of your Church's immoral actions.
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
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@abundanceinall Please do not misunderstand: your Church has every legal right to use tax-exempt tithing money to play politics, even if no other religious denomination in the country did so as a denomination.
But if you have decided to play politics instead of being a religious faith, then you should exprct to be treated like politicians. Your claim that "This video is quite misleading" is flat-out wrong. It is not misleading at all; you were simply ignorant of your Church's immoral actions.
hanohanonacowboy 5 months ago
The obvious and simple point: Some of the highest leaders of the Mormon church are liars. Whether you like what they did or not concerning Prop 8, they lied about what they did. The LDS church should have its tax-exempt status stripped. Then it can do whatever it likes including oppose measures that will, in due course, establish marriage or civil unions among adults. While we're at it, a church that believes in eternal polygamy may not be the best guide to "family values" on planet earth.
darkstar64114 6 months ago
True christians must do everything they can in terms of civil activity to oppose these abominable laws.Our View must be sustained with all our efforts
MrManumona 7 months ago
What Mormons have done is to stand up in front of evil with great civil courage. I hope we could have more poeple like them in my own country which has accepted the religious abomination and biological aberration of gay marriage.
MrManumona 7 months ago
First off: where did people ever get the idea of separation of church and state? Those words are not found in any part of the constitution. The first amendment merely states CONGRESS(which implies the federal Government not the states) can not pass any law favoring any religion or stomping on the rights of religions. -continued-
FighterOfWhatsRight 8 months ago
@FighterOfWhatsRight Obviously, you don't understand what is going on here. That's what these people are fighting for "separation of church and state". They have no problem with what you implied in your statement.. They just want the church out of the government. How would you like it if I came to your house and told you how to live????
chanFsaeteurn 7 months ago
@chanFsaeteurn But there is no need for separation of church and state. Each state should be able to decide whether they want to be a moral state or a completely religiously free state. This is how it was in the beginning with the Founders. In early American schools, Christain principles were allowed to be taught. Also, it seems more like the gay activists just want to punish the churches and force them to perform same gender marriages. What happened to the rights of states and religions?