:: Noam Chomsky : Two kinds of democracy 2/3 ::

[Exploer8591]

@ thespacialone: Do you think that the response might be different if the roles were reversed and the working class were suddenly in control over the lives of the super elite, kind of like the movie Trading Places with Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd? The “proletariat” (the working class), holding ultimate power, may become highly organized and self-controlled, while the super elite, loosing all control over their lives, might become volatile and reactionary. Chomsky sees clearly!

[centurion180ad]

It is a mass murdering Debt Syndicate, a homicidally insane mafia.

[wbballew]

Noam!!!

[thespacialone]

LOL what did he (really) say at 6.45??

[1844Freddy]

Noam sounds more spirited and forceful than usual here

[metalreign81]

People should just mooooo!!!

[thespacialone]

Just when you think he's going to elaborate and provide some rationale for the ostensibly sham accountability in his (version 1) democracy, he fudges and does his usual about turn, with his populist, but seemingly irrelevant for discussion of the point raised, caricature of "wicked" elitists. Mr Chomsky, history has amply demonstrated that wicked though they may be, elite behaviour and attitudes are relatively saintly compared to those your beloved proletariat voices whenever given the platform.

[lol101lol101lol10199]

I think it's funny how elitism and populism are opposites by definition and yet they are both commonly considered to be bad things at the same time. If you aren't an elitist you must be a populist and vice versa, you can't be neither (or both for that matter).

Also, if you hear an elitist politician use populist rhetorics it's natural to assume that he (she) is probably lying, either with the facts, the promises or the motives.

[canaan1967]

Can someone give examples of members of the "Specialized Class"? When he says they perform "executive functions" does that mean they are elected officials or could they be CEOs, teachers. He never explains this.

[Arkinight]

@canaan1967 Anybody that makes executive decisions - I think it's pretty self-explanatory. When the board of a corporation decides to shift productive capacity overseas because they would just love to give the Third World population fantastic jobs - that's an executive decision. When Senators decide to give massive state subsidies - meaning shifting taxpayer money - to corporations, yeah that's an executive decision.

Always in the favour of the American people, tacitly.

[loturos]

just a question: what if the general population really truly is not competent enough to make political decisions?

[alvisc2002]

they aren't :(

[PavedStones]

@loturos then we stop talking about democracy and all that? but if the population is too stupid to participate in managing its own affairs, then who has the legitimacy to manage its affairs? the wall street people and the corporate execs that currently run most governments, media, etc? hmm, quite convienent

[loturos]

@PavedStones I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying that those who are competent are generally few. the average IQ can be said to be 100, and the number of people at higher IQ's decreases as you go up the scale. this is the problem. sooner or later, those who have the understanding will regain whatever power they've lost and become the authority. or do you think average intelligence is enough for a population to thrive?

[PavedStones]

@loturos ... so I take it you have in mind a sort of technocratic system where people are selected on the basis of their intelligence and then put into charge? Because this is not what we have right now- take a look at the leading political figures, they do not come out as bright luminaries; in 2000 George Bush was asked a question about the Taliban and he thought they were a rock band, during the last presidential campaign McCain was a asked a question about Pakistan, (...)

[PavedStones]

(...) he believed it was in Latin America.... if you pay attention to that you will notice that the people who are in charge now often display mind-boggling ignorance of the world- because they're selected not for their intelligence but their serviceability to wealth and power. As for the economic sphere, most aggregate capital comes from... inheritance, not from being a genius.

[PavedStones]

Besides, your IQ (it's debatable that IQ is a good measure of intelligence in the first place, but lets put that aside for the sake of argument) depends on good part on the education you have received, which depends on the resources available to your parents in the first place, so when you have a super high quality education system for the rich and a lamentable one for the general populace, it's easy to then say that the people are stupid and uneducated.

[thespacialone]

@PavedStones You make lots of good points, but your contention that IQ relates very much to education is false. Rather, its determinant is overwhelmingly genetic, and this has been proved beyond doubt by testers. State education has succeeded far more effectively at making smart people dumb than the less mentally well endowed intelligent. All education can do is unleash our mental potency (or retard it), but it is incapable of producing it in itself.

[PavedStones]

To add to the injury, much schooling is about internalizing the values and interests of the people who run the society in the first place, that's why the more educated people tend to be true believers, overwhelmingly supportive of every war etc and the least critical about how society functions etc, because, historically, in every society the role of religious AND secular education is to form the people who will put the ideologies necessary to justify why those in power are in power.

[PavedStones]

Which brings me to my last point, that the dumb masses are often much more reasonable and responsible in their opinions than the ruling elites, e.g. people tend to be always opposed to for example wars etc, obviously unlike the people in charge.

[PavedStones]

Also, it's kind of a cyclical logic: people are dumb and incompetent to have a say in the management of their own affairs, so we need an elite of rich and intelligent men to run the country, so the elites then are justified to manage them ideologically by dumbing them down and brainwashing with the right message through the mass media, so the population ends up becoming really stupid, so we need more elitism, etc.

On the overall I think this is not very good and that more democracy is better.

[djboony]

when is this from?

[soldierofvanity]

he is wasting available and aware people.

sensibility gets you nowhere he should call out for action and organize a targeted group on independance of industry, creating small and local industry etc.

[Chuichupachichi]

Since the highly intelligent, cognitively commanding, "specialized class" is so profoundly proficient in their execution of the higher thought processes

Then, I have simply one request of them to apply a socially beneficial degree of correctly executed logic in action. It is that they may terminate themselves on account of the fact that they can't possibly be correctly selected by the stupid, bewildered herd that voted for them. For the herd is not capable of deciding their own best interests!

[Chuichupachichi]

Whichever part of the specialized class specializes in "logic", such as the type of which its application dictates that they logically can't allow the herd to decide for themselves. Much like one can't allow a 3 yr. old to autonomously cross the street. Is the logically specializing part of the specialized class that has made the analogically illogical assumption that the entire population of the nation is comprised of adults with 3 year old minds & 3 year olds. Not all are Democrats dammit

[Chuichupachichi]

It sucks that the specialized class & their puppeteer masters have to tell all of the nation's population that we can't go out to the ice cream truck because there's a big, mean dog outside that will bite us.....alot. But I don't mind. I prefer the markets 1/2 gallons. What I do hate though, is that after they peddle my "distraction" from the top of the wholesale chain. Then the very same peddlers use their Kingpoliticpin authority to try and put me in jail for possessing their distraction. WTF?

[Chuichupachichi]

Well, perhaps "he" would want to randomly shoot into the crowd if he can figure out how to mount a gun on a oscillating fan across the street and tie a string to the trigger thats passed through a pulley and extended across to "him" so that he can randomly pull on the string of the randomly aiming oscillating fan gun

Otherwise, the only reason why he probably doesn't want to, is because he can't

BTW, I had no clue of the existence of Eastern, poor, South American countries

[KraljevicPavle]

*Head explodes from sheer influx of understanding and truth*

[MshrF]

Thx for Posting.