Refuting protestantism on sola fide (2 of 2)

[TheUCHIHAblood111]

It is Christ's payment of our sins that earns us eternal life. As sinners we can't do anything to pay for our sins; good works do not cover up our sins. Jesus lived a perfect life,suffered and died for us to be saved every sin was taken to the cross. We go to heaven because our sins are gone. We are as far apart from them as the east from the west.

so then I ask if we go to heaven because of Jesus's payment for our sins why do we need to do good works? also a faith with no works is a hypocrite

[imromancatholic]

@TheUCHIHAblood111 - Read romans 2:4-8 and come back and tell me why it isn't true. You might also read the story of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25. Tell me that the sheep didn't get in to heaven based on what they had done? i.e. "well done good and faithful servant" means what Jesus did solely.

[imromancatholic]

@TheUCHIHAblood111 Explain this passage for me:Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven.

You say we don't have to do anything because Jesus did it all. You are clearly wrong.

[TheUCHIHAblood111]

@imromancatholic Sins keep us out of heaven. Our works are filthy rags that cannot cover up our sins we cannot balance our sins out. Christ died because of this he came to die for our sins. He said "It is finished". His robe of righteousness covers me, and makes me perfect before God. If then I am perfect because of Christ what will keep me out of heaven? Only myself.If I do not do works I truly have no faith. My works are thanks to my Lord Jesus Christ,Who suffered my hell.

[imromancatholic]

@TheUCHIHAblood111 - Ah imputed righteousness. The ugly sinner sneaks in to heaven, covered by Christ but still dirty underneath. But the Bible says NOTHING UNCLEAN SHALL ENTER. Again read Romans 2:4-8. Eph 3:20-21 might help to. You pull a bait and switch where you talk about our works but God working in and through us, prompting us to do good, brings about salvation. That is clear. You will in fact be judged by what you do. Again read vreses about judgement.

[imromancatholic]

@TheUCHIHAblood111 - In the sheep and the goats both the sheep and the goats call him Lord. Funny, only the ones who do good to others get in. That is what they are judged by. Jesus doesn't say, oh I will cover you over and send you in because you called me Lord. He gives us the grace to do true good (eph 3:20-21) and produce 30, 60, or 100 fold and then rewards..

[tnachreinerable]

What if Noah just closed his eyes...pictured the Ark, imagined himself on it and stopped right there?! Works of the law and acting in faith are two different things!

[dahsd08]

See? Gal. 23 says" we are no longer under a disciplinarian" - old testament law or not. What about a drug addict stuck in a ghetto somewhere? Would you have him go to hell because of a sin he was in bondage to? The faith alone view is what's going to save this person not the requirements that you would put on him. He already knows what he should do but can't do it.

[gtepp031387]

@dahsd08 i will disprove faith alone simply with the foundation of faith(the words of christ) If u believe in me u have eternal life. simple believe have eternal life simple. if u believe in me u will keep my commandments. simple if u believe in me u will do what? keep my commandments.simple. If u do not keep my commandments u do not believe in me. simple. Unbelievers are not saved. if anyone(paul, peter, pope) contridicts this the words of christ they are either 1 wrong or 2 having there words

[gtepp031387]

@dahsd08 misenterprited simple yes.

[Magnulus76]

I think you are really failing to understand how salvation works for Protestants. The idea that "good works" at all can do anything to merit salvation is ridiculous, frankly. All our best works are nothing. What really saves you in protestantism is an acceptance that brings transformation, to be "in love and charity with your neighbor" and intending "to lead a new life following the commandments of God". Especially in Anglicanism/Wesleyanism, salvation is also understood as a process.

[calomie]

Regarding your comments on Romans 3:28, so when Paul uses the phrase "work(s) of the law" for the first time in Romans 2:14-15, he as insinuating that the Gentiles "by nature" get circumcised, obey the Kosher laws, and the laws on how to handle blood as well as all the feasts?

The first time Paul uses the phrase "works of the law" or "work of the law," he is talking about the Gentiles knowing by nature what is right or wrong. Read Romans 2:14-15. The phrase carries the same meaning throughout.

[imromancatholic]

Again 300 times in the NT the word faith is used and never ONCE does it put it with the word alone excpet James 2:24 which says NOT by faith alone. Prots say God let's fix what you said. Let's put in alone everywhere it says faith. Tell me, if I say we can get across the river in a boat. Would you say "oh that means boat alone". You might need a motor or a paddle. The boat is of course critial but you would not get acrross in a boat alone.

[tnachreinerable]

@imromancatholic I'm not Catholic, I'm protestant but keep the posts going because you've almost got me converted! I agree with you

[imromancatholic]

@tnachreinerable - I will add you to my prayer list. God bless.

[imromancatholic]

@tnachreinerable - Hey if your still working on the faith and works question go to a bible search engine and do a search for all passages dealing with judgment at the end of life. Tell me how many of them talk about faith?

2Cor.5 [10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

[imromancatholic]

@tnachreinerable - point of my last post being that faith gets us in to Christianity. Grace keeps us in faith and motivates out works. "faith working in love" is what the bible calls it. That is the Catholic teaching.

[tnachreinerable]

@imromancatholic Thank you for the advice on using a Bible search engine. I appreciate the prayers and your efforts to offer direction!

Your words align beautifully with what I read in the Bible and cause the verses to harmonize...a sure sign of truth!

[youneedhim777]

I would like to ask how you can come up with the treasury of merits, pergatory, intercession of the saints, and mariology through the scriptures. "Not by wors of righteousnesss which we have done, but according to HIs mercy He saved us." (Titus3:5)

[lightninlad]

youneedhim777,

The merits of the saints, all of their good works, ARE the merits of Christ himself. That is why such acts of righteousness have an eternal value--because they are Christ's own actions.

[QuakeCityRockers]

Romans 4:4-6 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who DOES NOT WORK but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness APART FROM WORKS

[lightninlad]

Yes, obviously a man's own works cannot make him righteous. However, when we are joined to the body of Christ(and hence, we shall rise again as he did), all of the works we do which are good, are in fact, Christ's own works, and thus make us righteous.

[TroyeHaryanto]

St James makes it clear in his epistle that faith without works is DEAD, and Martin Luther the Great convenientky that epistle out - calling ikt 'an epistle of straw.' He even had the audacity to say that Revelations was NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit. So both St James and St John were liars? I think Luther was the deranged one amongst the three. St James by the way was martyred - he died for the glory of God - for Christ. So whose words and acts are more authentic? St James of corse!

[tyb0rggoat]

Sent a message. It's a bit long. Hopefully I did a decent job keeping it to one solid issue.

[tyb0rggoat]

Sent a message. It's a bit long. Hopefully I did a decent job keeping it to one solid issue.

[tyb0rggoat]

But to be honest, I did not intend this to become a series of posts brutally attacking your faith, although I am deeply angered and frustrated by the many false teachings of the RCC. We should talk more about this. I can show you many things from the Roman Catholic Catechism that are in direct violation of Scripture. If you don't wanna hear it, that's fine. But know this: The Bible tells us that the Truth shall prevail. Therefore, you should not be afraid of what you hear, truth or lies.

[tyb0rggoat]

If you honestly seek the Truth, then join me on this study, as I would like to learn more about what you believe. But I do ask you to be open to considering what I have to say, and to be open to the notion that all is not as it seems when it comes to "Catholic Holy Tradition."

[OneTrueChurch]

ok lets study. one issue at a time. feel free to message me about what ever issue you wnat to discuss

[tyb0rggoat]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We have been saved by grace through our faith TO DO good works. We are not saved by the works that we do.

[CASSMAN777]

Thats right, works is a product of being saved. Works show that we're saved, they don't save us. Works is important even in sola fide, because they show us were saved.

[knghtcmdr]

You missed a verse. Ephesians 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

[tyb0rggoat]

You missed where it said "FOR good works."

God prepares good works for us to do, but it is not by them which we are saved.

[knghtcmdr]

And St. James said in his epistle that faith without works is dead, i.e. useless. It's clear we need both to be saved.

You can spin it anyway you want, but the word is clear. Faith PLUS good works are needed.

[tyb0rggoat]

Not true. Faith without works is dead, yes. Yet, the problem is that of sin. We do not redeem ourselves by doing good things to "make up" for the bad. We are redeemed because Christ has taken our punishment upon Himself. He took our sin upon himself and was nailed to the cross with it. Thus, the crimes of mankind are paid for. Period.

[knghtcmdr]

Of course, even us Catholics believe Christ's sacrifice redeemed us. I am redeemed and I am now working out my salvation with fear and trembling as St. Paul commanded me to (Philippians 2:12).

I think that Christians, Catholics like myself included, should look past differences in doctrine and focus on what unites us; faith in Christ and in God.

[REBEWEOJ]

Really? So I take it that I do not need as in required to forgive the sins of my brother? Do I even have to love God if all if my faith saves me? Is there clear statements of even hypothetical discussions of what happens to Christian who AFTER believing in Christ as savior turns his face in sinfulness? What is the reaction by God to this sinfulness?

[tnachreinerable]

@REBEWEOJ Good Response! Love it

[youneedhim777]

Saving faith produces works. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matt7:18) So how can you who are born evil do that which is good? Sanctification, though part of salvation (Jesus came to save His people from their sins) is not the same as justification, A true believer (resting on Christ's merit alone as Gal2:16 teaches) brings forth good fruit and will persevere until the end.

[imromancatholic]

Read Romans 2:4-10. The works are what we are judged on. Also Matt 25 and John 5:21.

[CASSMAN777]

ephesians 2 says NOTHING about baptism. Titus 3:5 doesn't mean baptism. "the bath of rebirth," in Titus 3:5 is not talking about baptism its talking about turning your life around and being a new person, or "born again." It says, "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOSNESS which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the WASHING OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

If it meant baptism, it would say, "by BAPTISM, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" but you can see it doesn't.

[OneTrueChurch]

the effects of baptism are a work that God does in us not something that we do to ourselves. Compare titus 3:5 to Acts 2:38

"Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit." Clearly the washing is baptism.

"Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name" (acts 22:16)

clearly the washing is baptsim.

[CASSMAN777]

When you repent, you confess your sins and ask Jesus to come into your heart, thats when you get the holy spirit and when you are cleaned and get "born again," and then you get baptized. Thats what Acts 2:38 really means.

[OneTrueChurch]

strange that it doesn't say that

[CASSMAN777]

"strange that it doesn't say that"

Yes it does say that. Thats why it says,"Repent and be baptized," not,"Be baptized and repent." Repenting comes first, then baptism.

Its kind of funny that you tell me whats in the bible and whats not in the bilbe, when you follow traditions that are not even in the bible, do you see the hypocrisy there?

[OneTrueChurch]

it says "repent and be baptised for the remission of sins"

not "repent for the remission of sins and then be baptised as an indicator of your conversion." the remission of sins is tied to baptism.

[CASSMAN777]

The remission of sins is tied to repentance. Peter simply just said it in one sentence.

[CASSMAN777]

Acts 22:16 doesn't mean that you need to be baptized to be saved. I know it looks that way but remember that Acts 22 is when Paul was tellling the Sanhedrin about when Christ came to him on the road to Damascus. Paul was actually saved before Ananias baptized him (Acts 9:17, Galations 1:11-12). Paul was already washed from his sins b/4 he was baptized by Ananias (Acts 9:17-18). In Acts 10:42-48, other people get saved b/4 they're baptized.

[OneTrueChurch]

Acts 9 doesn't say that paul was saved before being baptised. the people in Acts 10 recieved the gift of tounges but it doesn't mena that they didn't need to be baptised.

[CASSMAN777]

"Acts 9 doesn't say that paul was saved before being baptised."

Yes it does, it says the holy spirit came to him before he was baptized (Acts 9:17-18.)

In Acts 10:42-48 says the people recieved the holy spirit b/4 they were baptized. Speaking in tongues does mean you are saved, it is a gift from God (1Cor. 14:1-2).

[OneTrueChurch]

also having spiritual gifts doesn't mean that you are saved. Paul says that he could be albe to speak in great tounges but still be nothing (1 corithians 13) and Ciaphas, the high priest who handed jesus over to pilate had the gift of prophesy but was he saved? The tounges was a sign that these people should be baptised. There is nothing in this passage which would suggest that baptism isn't nessesary for salvation

[CASSMAN777]

The verse says they recieved the holy spirit before they were baptized (Acts 10:44). They weren't baptized to later in the verse (10:48). Baptism is something you do AFTER you are saved.

[tyb0rggoat]

Acts 10:47:

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

They recieved the Holy Spirit before being baptized, and thus were saved. They were regenerated Christians before they were ever baptized by water.

Furthermore, where did you hear that Martin Luther added "alone?" All I ever hear Catholics say about him was how much he removed from canon. Bible Scholars study pre-Luther manuscripts and find "alone."

[CASSMAN777]

The reason why Catholics say that, is because they realize that their beliefs aren't biblical, so they make up excuses to cover them up. Probably the main reason why they teach baptism and communion is required, is to scare people into going to their church so they can make a lot of money.

[tyb0rggoat]

Likely. Just like Purgatory Candles of old. "your loved ones are trapped in a half-hell all people need to go through to get to heaven for in undefined amt. of time that's talked about NOWHERE in the Bible, but you can shorten that time by praying indulgences and by making donations to your local parish, or by buying these outrageously priced purgatory candles!"

Look at the history of the RCC. It's been done. I'm sickened by such false teaching.

[CASSMAN777]

The whole purgatory thing is just a scam for the RCC to make a lot of money and to instill fear into people. Catholics use a verse in 2Maccabees to justify their false belief, but the apocrypha isn't inspired by God.

Purgatory in fact contradicts scripture, Romans 8:1, 1Thess 5:9-10.

[OneTrueChurch]

this is rediculous. look at how you just contradicted yourself. 1st you say that the catholic church itnvented purgatory and then you talk about 2 maccabees. 2 maccabees talks about purgatory and while you might not consider it to be inspired, its existance still proves that purgatory was beleived even bfore the insitution of the church. so the church could not have invented it.

[tyb0rggoat]

2 Maccabees even tells the reader that it is not an inspired book. 2 Maccabees 15:38 says this:

38: And if I have done well, and as is fitting the story, it is that which I desired: but if slenderly and meanly, it is that which I could attain unto.

The lack of confidence in what the author has written shows that he was not inspired by the Spirit of God. The RCC didn't "invent" purgatory. They took a brief mention of it from a non-inspired book and twisted into a money scam.

[CASSMAN777]

What I was saying was the Roman Catholics took some random verse out of context to justify their false beliefs. I also just pointed out that 2 Maccabees isn't inspired.

[catholicwriterbry]

If you believe in Sola Scriptura, you can't logically claim that 2 Maccabees isn't inspired. Where does the Bible say, "Second Maccabees isn't inspired?" If it doesn't (and it doesn't), how can you know that to be the case?

[tnachreinerable]

@OneTrueChurch Its the same thing as Hades or Sheol!

[Jd311989]

I find your ability for refute this calvinistic teaching of Sola Fide staggering. You truly showed that this teaching is of John Calvin, and not of Christ Jesus. It is faith that works. Interesting that all of these passages, which never say faith alone, always seem to have a VERB involved. VERB. Something that you DO, or ARE DOING, or being expected to UPHOLD. These are verbs, not lazy thoughts.

[psalms119105]

you take luther out of context

[CASSMAN777]

How do you know that titus 3:5 is talking about literal baptism? In luke 3:16 John the Baptist says he only batizes w/water but Christ baptizes w/ the holy spirtit. It sounds like that you must ask Christ to come into your heart and you'll be spiritually baptized w/the holy spirit. It sounds like in that verse that literal baptism and spiritual baptism are separate. Also if baptism was really required why did it take my old Lutheran pastor to baptize me 6 months after I asked him to do it?

[OneTrueChurch]

"How do you know that titus 3:5 is talking about literal baptism?"

becuase this is what all the ancient fathers have taught. Also, it coincides with 1 peter where he says "baptism now saves you.."

as for john the baptist, it is true that the baptism of john as not salvific. but christ's baptism is since it sanctifys us in the spirit. there is nothing separating literal and spiritual baptism.

[CASSMAN777]

If John the Baptist thought that his literal baptism saved you then he would of said something like "I baptise with water AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

[OneTrueChurch]

i said john's baptism WAS NOT salvific.

John's baptism = water

jesus' baptism = water + holy spirit

[CASSMAN777]

Ok well how is the Catholic priests' baptism salvific if John's baptism wasn't?

[seltian]

Because Christ instituted the salvific baptism and gave His priests the power to perform it. See Acts 19:1-6. St. Paul meets a man who was baptised by John. Paul told the man that John's baptism was invalid, and then baptises him validly.

[OneTrueChurch]

"How do you know that titus 3:5 is talking about literal baptism?"

becuase this is what all the ancient fathers have taught. Also, it coincides with 1 peter where he says "baptism now saves you.."

as for john the baptist, it is true that the baptism of john as not salvific. but christ's baptism is since it sanctifys us in the spirit. there is nothing separating literal and spiritual baptism.

[CASSMAN777]

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" titus 3:5

It clearly states that we are saved by grace thru faith. "thru washing of regeneration" means to clean your life up.

[OneTrueChurch]

the washing of regeneration and renewal of the spirit refers to water baptism. it parrellels john 3:5 where jesus says that you must be born again of water and spirit. the water, is baptism.

[CASSMAN777]

John 3:5 doesn't mean baptism. "...Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Born of water doesn't mean baptism it means to turn your life around and be a new person and be "born again." It doesn't say, "...Except a man be baptized and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." If baptism was as important as you say it is, Jesus would've specifically said baptism.

[Monkies97]

Exactly and I agree with that Bible verse.But you see when we have been saved by grace through faith(which all Christians agree on) we are given a two paths to choose from. One a path of righteousness (good works) and one a path of evil.(rejecting God's works he has chosen for us, and doing our own thing etc..)If we reject the good wroks God has chose for us God will reject us, it's sad but it's true. Thus good works and faith are necessary for salvation.

[Monkies97]

What that verse was saying is that good wroks alone will not save you, so if you claim to be a Christian good works alone are uselees. but as James says "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" meaning that we also need works. And so it is logically concluded as Christians we ust have both faith and works in order to be saved.

[CASSMAN777]

When you see where it says faith without works is dead, it says that because if you are not born again, you can't have good deeds because Christ isn't inside of you making you a better person. People claim to be Christians but they are only lukewarm Christians so their deeds are bad. SO therefore "Faith w/out works is dead" even in sola fide.

[OneTrueChurch]

cassmann, you are obviously just trying to read out of the text what you want. anyone who is honest will admit that james is talking about adding works to your faith, Even Luther admitted this.

[CASSMAN777]

"cassmann, you are obviously just trying to read out of the text what you want."

No thats what Catholics do to justify their unbiblical traditions.

[CASSMAN777]

Read eph 2:8-10. The concept of Sola fide isn't that you accept Christ and then you sin like there is no tommorrow. Sola Fide states that you accept Christ and be born again. While you are born again CHrist makes you a better person. The good deeds you do are not from yourself, but they're from Christ. You can't be good on your own (Romans 3:10). Works is more of a PRODUCT of being saved than a requirement.

[seltian]

We know that he is talking about literal baptism in John 3:5 because Jesus uses a figure of speech in John 3:3, "born again." Nicodemus doesn't understand the figure of speech, so Jesus explains it to him.

[OneTrueChurch]

i did not contradict myself at all. listen to what i said carefully

[CASSMAN777]

Ok so you are saying that we are saved through the sacrament of baptism, but eph 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith? If you get baptzed as an infant then how does a baby have faith. I doubt you knew who Jesus was when you were a couple months old.

[OneTrueChurch]

it is through baptism that one enters into the faith, which is confirmed by titus 3:5 (more on that below). It is hoped that the infant will be raised up in the faith and lern about jesus and believe in him. Should a person choose to reject jesus obviously that person would not have salvation. the bible never puts faith against baptism but for some reason you do.

[CASSMAN777]

Ok why does Romans 10:9,10,11 say all you need is to confess Christ w/your mouth and believe in your heart that he rose again and you will be saved. Why is baptism absent in these important verses?

Also read Acts 10:42-48 talks about Peter preaching the gospel and the people recieved Christ BEFORE they were baptized.

[CASSMAN777]

When you talked about eph 2:8-9 you just contradicted yourself. You said in the first video and earlier in the second video that we are saved by grace THOUGH FAITH AND WORKS. Then you say when you quote eph 2:8-9 that you are saved by GRACE ALONE THROUGH FAITH.

[21crosscheck21]

Monkey... are you Catholic?

[Monkies97]

I will answer your question but let me first ask you a question. Why does it matter if I'm Catholic or not?

[21crosscheck21]

In one of your post you said you went to a prot school and they were trying to convert you. You don't need to answer if you don't want. The statement just made me wonder.

[Monkies97]

I AM a Catholic and have no problem admitting it, I just didn't know if you were a Catholic-hater and whether or not you were going to try and insult the entire Catholic Church and call all of us pedophiles for what a couple of ex-priests have unfortuantely done to children. It was a pleasure talking with you.

[21crosscheck21]

Well at least we proved we can be civil. Have a good one.

[Monkies97]

You too crosscheck. May God Bless you

[21crosscheck21]

Monkey, please don't misunderstand me either. I do not believe a simple salvation prayer saves you. I believe we are saved when by the Grace of God we repent and turn to the Savior. He bore my sins on the cross and I have peace with God through faith in Christ.

[Monkies97]

Okay then I basically believe exactly what you are saying.Wow, that was a bit of a misunderstanding.

[21crosscheck21]

How did that happen.

[Monkies97]

I think what happened was believe it or not I was misunderstanding what you meant by accepting Christ and I thought you meant all one had to do to be saved was ask him into your heart.Okay well have a good evening, and though it won't do much I've decided you are pretty cool and I'm going to suscribe to your page to reconciliate.God Bless.

[21crosscheck21]

Sorry I wasn't more clear about what I said. Many blessings.

[Monkies97]

3) John 1:12 says we must personally receive Him, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become the sons of God." This means your life is going to change! "He who has the son of God (Jesus) has the life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

[Monkies97]

Its also in Luthers book "The Bondage of the Will" and I would like to clarify what I was saying: You do need to accept Christ in the sense you must love him, have faith in him, and and not reject him. But you do not need to "accept him" in the sense you literally ask him into your heart and then you are saved forever" that is not a true doctrine, that is a lie.

[corsec144]

Those who follow the Reformation wing of Protestantism (especially those who follow in the wake of Calvin and Luther/Melanchthon (who by the way did a lot more to form the modern Lutheran beliefs than most people actually realize)) do not believe that one can be saved and not have good works. We argue that works of any kind themselves can not be a ground for justification. Works are a necessary fruit of justification, however, and one can not argue in favor of a Christian life without them.

[redheadfo847]

great video man!!

[Monkies97]

The Bible NEVER says to "accept christ" foolish protestants. It does mention that we are saved by God's grace at baptism (acts 2:38)

[OneTrueChurch]

well obviously its true that belief in christ is nessesary for salvation. But i do find it interesting that the bible never uses the type of terminology that protestants use: "accept jesus christ as your personal lord and savior"

[corsec144]

The Reformed wing of Protestantism wholly agrees with you here. Salvation is Monergistic not Synergistic. You find that sort of talk mainly in the wings of EvangelicProstestantism that are influenced by Arminianism, John Wesley, and Charles Finney. Granted they seem in the majority here in America, but that is certainly not the complete report of all Protestantism.

[21crosscheck21]

So do you think that you have no need to accept Christ as your personal savior?

[Monkies97]

Christ at baptism saves his believers. Acts 2:38. It works 2 ways.

1.Baptised for salvation as a baby,learn about God and his Church when you are old enough to understand.

2.Believe in Christ then baptised.

This is the way the Bible outlines the steps to be saved. Not "accepting Christ" as is taught by the Protestants originating in the early 1500's.

[21crosscheck21]

So you can reject Christ and still be saved?

[Monkies97]

I never said that you can reject Christ and still be saved. Christ accepts you and you accept Christ at baptism.That is why we say we are saved by GOD'S GRACE at baptism. That is we get the gift of God's salvation at baptism without ever asking for it or without"accepting Christ." all I mean is that you don't have to say "Christ come into my heart and all that stuff. That is a false doctrine created by Luther in the 1500's.Baptism is when we are saved.

[21crosscheck21]

Can you show me where luther taught people to be save you say "Christ come into my heart and all that stuff". Or do you just make assumptions and attribute doctrines to people without being able to back up the claim as so many e-apologist do.

[Monkies97]

I go to a Protestant school right now and have grown up in mainly Protestant schools my whole life. I have had teachers try and convert me to Protestantism and they always told me "just tell Christ you accept him and you are sorry" I hear all my teachers at my school right now tell me that every day.And if you want to know where Luther wrote these things check out his book "The Jews and Their Lies" you can read it online, and it talks of "Accepting Christ" as necessary for salvation.

[OneTrueChurch]

you can't.

[Monkies97]

I felt the need to clarify what I was saying so please check out what I meant to say since it seems I may not have been clear enough in what I was saying.

[OneTrueChurch]

accepting jesus christ as lord and savior is most certianly nessesary for salvation. I was just pointing out the fact that the bible doesn't use thoes exact words.

[21crosscheck21]

OTC, I agree. Accepting Christ in a theological sense is simply a contrast to rejecting him. We all must accept him to be saved.

[Monkies97]

Do you get what I am trying to say now that I have clarified it?

[21crosscheck21]

I was refering to you implying that Luther taught that all one needs to do to be saved is to "Ask Jesus come into your heart" Show me were luther taught this.

[Monkies97]

Sure thing give me a minute to bring it up on my computer and I will copy and paste it into here.

[Monkies97]

4) Romans 10:9-10 says "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raiseth him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

[Monkies97]

Here is what Luther said in one of his speakings to followers:Recognize we are sinners and need forgivenessThen, admit our sins to Jesus, "If confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

[CASSMAN777]

Actually it does Romans 10:13 says anyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved. "accepting Christ" is calling on his name.

[CASSMAN777]

Actually it does Romans 10:13 says anyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved. "accepting Christ" is calling on his name.

[21crosscheck21]

Doesn't the bible say that if you call a man a fool you will be in danger of judgment? Is this you good work for the day?

[Monkies97]

The Bible does say not to call a man a fool. but to call someone foolish is not bad. It is to tell someone they are acting like a fool, so I am saying "you are Acting like a fool" but I am not calling whomever I was talking to a fool.

[CASSMAN777]

Actually it does Romans 10:13 says anyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved. "accepting Christ" is calling on his name.

[CASSMAN777]

Yeah when you accept Christ you are baptized by the holy spirit. He wasn't talking about the sacrament of baptism.

[OneTrueChurch]

no you are baptised by the holy spirit when you are baptised with water.

"Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit" (Acts 2:28)

you recieve the holy spirit when you are baptised in water.

"he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

the "bath of rebirth" accurs at the same time as the "renewal of spirit."

[CASSMAN777]

"17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." 1 Corinthians 1:17

Looks like Paul only think the Gospel is a requirement. Also when I was baptised how come I didn't feel any more saved than I was originally when I first accepted Christ?

[OneTrueChurch]

nothing here says anything about baptism not being a requirement. All paul is saying is that he considered preaching the gospel (which includes the nessesity of baptism) to be the focal point of his ministry. Read the chapter in context, what paul was critisizing was the fact that ppl were putting more emphasis in who they were baptised by rather than the sacrament itself. As for what you "felt" after you were batpsied, Salvation or the state of our soul is never determined by how we "feel".

[CASSMAN777]

I read the context and your right it is talking about divisions in the church. But its still kind of odd that Paul was underminding the neccessity of baptism. Its like paul was saying "For God did not send me to get people saved." Or 1Cr1:14 would say something silly like "I thank God for not saving any of you, but Crispus and Gaius." Obviously Paul was undermining baptism's importance because Paul wouldn't say something silly like that.

[Marcello777]

Are you saying that there's two baptisms?

[OneTrueChurch]

no, there is only one baptism. thats what i'm actually trying to say. Some protestants try to make a distinction between "baptism of water" and "baptism of the holy spirit" but a person recieves the holy spirit though water baptism so its not two distinct baptsims but rather one.

[Marcello777]

oh wait I'm sorry, I meant to reply to CASSMAN777. I know you don't believe in more than 1 baptism. There is only one baptism, just like how there is one fath and one God. Ephesians 4:5

[CASSMAN777]

Ephesians 4:5 just means there is one way to heaven and thats through Christ. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" just means only one person to be baptized in the name of. Its basically John 14:6 in differnet words.

[CASSMAN777]

more than less

[waashj]

Great!!! Thanks again! :)

[GuidSaucy]

You make some interesting points worth investigating.

[OneTrueChurch]

thanks