Jesus' Sacrifice & Sin Redemption - A.E. #545

[Enzo012]

He died but then he came back again. As of course we're all going to do but all at once together at the same time. Then we stand to be judged and all that business, unless of course you repented your sins to Jesus in which case you get a free ticket to paradise because Jesus already paid your fee for admission. So that's the idea of it.

[RadarKat73080]

OMG!  You killed Bunny! You bastards!

[KAIZERCZAR]

A factor militating against the acceptance of the LAW of THOUGHT as DESTINY is the belief in vicarious atonement. If individuals may be relieved of the consequences of their "sins" by the sacrifice of another, there is no REASON for the belief in JUSTICE. The hope of eternal bliss in heaven, & the fear of eternal suffering in hell, as reward/punishment for the acts of one short life on earth, & based upon the mere acceptance/rejection of doctrine, dull the Perception & stagger Understanding.

[KAIZERCZAR]

It should be seen from the foregoing that Jesus did not come to save the world, or to save any one in the world; that he came to SHOW to the world, that is, to the disciples or any others, that each one could save himself by changing his mortal body into an IMMORTAL body. There is enough left in the books of the New Testament as evidence that Jesus was one of The "Order of Immortals", of The Order of MELCHISEDEC. The story of Jesus will be the story of the one who by thinking discovers himself.

[viridismonasteriense]

@KAIZERCZAR "It should be seen from the foregoing that Jesus did not come to save the world, or to save any one in the world"

eh...

Luke 9:56 "For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but TO SAVE THEM."

Luke 19:10 "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to SAVE that which was lost."

John 12:47 "And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD.

The Bible would disagree there.

[AceofDimonds0]

no father (godly or otherwise) would sacrifice and torture his own son, even if it was for the greater good.

[elrapido5150]

You should have burned it too, dammit.

[Diomedes01]

The whole 'sacrifice' aspect of Christianity is the one thing that really made me discount their rendition of salvation. (Not that I believe any of that mystical nonsense)

But the 'sacrifice' is nothing of the sort when you think about it logically. Jesus=God. God cannot die by definition so he is omnipotent. So where is the sacrifice? That is the equivalent of saying my video game character on Grand Theft Auto sacrificed something.

[Nocturnalux]

Even if he *can* die, the sacrifice hypothesis still falls since he came back from the dead. So nothing was really sacrificed, just temporarily forfeited.

[TheLoquid]

The most unbelievable thing about sin is that God would give a shit about us.

[zhandisouza]

@TheLoquid GET OUT SATAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[wiiTiny]

So I'm guessing you just discovered you were wrong about the cannibalism thing.

[kyokumajr]

?

1. I was making fun of you, but oh well

2. Some actually believe in trasustantionation seriously taking place.

[wiiTiny]

Sorry, I thought you seriously believed the cannibalism thing. It's a little hard some times to tell when people are joking or not when it's just typed out. That's all.

[PDzero]

Not to redo the discussion, but i'll ask you a question regularly used on the Atheist Experience and that is: When it comes to knowledge and belief, wouldn't you want to know as much true things a possible and as few faulty things as possible"? I'm curious to your answer.

[wiiTiny]

So then when Jesus said "eat of my body" He is referring to cannibalism?

[kyokumajr]

Could have been ;)

[wiiTiny]

I hope that's sarcasm.

[kyokumajr]

No.

[wiiTiny]

Luke 22:19-20... vs 19: And he took the bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." vs 20: Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

Hmm, it seems pretty clear to me that He's referring to the bread and the wine, and not cannibalism. I challenge you to take vs 19 and ask any english teacher if it means anything differently.

[wiiTiny]

There is no doubt that men have taken advantage of christianity for their own personal gain, by exploiting people for their money and so on. I will never stand for that. Such acts are wrong no matter if you are a Christian or a Hindu... it doesn't matter. Behavior like that is fundamentally wrong to the human race.  What I am trying to say is that these men give people a sick picture of christianity. Any person with an intelligent men would never want anything to do with something like that.

[kyokumajr]

"What I am trying to say is that these men give people a sick picture of christianity"

They don't even have to, because the officials & leaders of Xianity are doing a pretty fine job of creating the fucked up impression themselves.

[wiiTiny]

You seem to focus all your attention on christianity, or "Xianity" (weird how you can't even type christianity anymore). Is christianity the sole problem in this world when it comes to religions? Do you even consider Buddhism or Islam as 'ridiculous' as how you consider christianity... oh, sorry "Xianity." I'm truly amazed. Your problem is with Jesus. Oh ya, christianity is one of the only, if not the only religion where people can know the 'god' personally. It's kinda interesting isn't it

[kyokumajr]

Do you even consider Buddhism or Islam as 'ridiculous' as how you consider christianity... "

Um, I never in my life had a problem or had to listen about being worthy of burning in hell or god hates me & etc by a muslim or budhist.

ae you asking why I'm not going after other religions? Maybe because they are not the majority & are not imposing their supersticious, bronze age beliefs on me.

[wiiTiny]

Actually, Islam happens to be the fastest growing religion in the United States. In their countries, they straight up kill you or your family if you don't believe in their religion. Maybe you should do something about that "truth" seeker. Or maybe you side with the Chinese government who kill christians on the spot. You don't seem very anti-religion, you seem very anti Christianity, or wait, "Xianity."

[kyokumajr]

So it's "Go after them! They are just as bad!" ?

I don't happen to live in those countries, so those people don't bother me much directly & since time/resources short I have to deal with the problem at hand first.

[wiiTiny]

Well, then I hope you come across a genuine christian in your lifetime. There's a lot of differences between many christians in this 21st century. It's sad that so many are hypocritical, I truly am sorry that people like that have led you to question your faith that you once held. Like you, I don't claim to know everything. But just because I don't understand everything about my faith doesn't mean I will abandon the real life I have as a christian.

[kyokumajr]

Huh? o_O? What faith I once held?

What's a "genuine xian"?

You didn't even deny you were trying to shift the blame from your religion by claiming I should go after another?

Apologising doesnt really make you forgiven if the biggotry of your religion still goes on & limits the right/freedoms of others. This ain't confession, where you can just repent & be forgiven.

[wiiTiny]

I'm trying to point out to you that you're attacking christianity for your own personal reasons, and if this attack suddenly ended, I highly doubt you would go and start a new campaign against any other religion in the world.

[kyokumajr]

If they started imposing bronze age myths on me sure I would.

[wiiTiny]

I would encourage you to read the New Testament and observe the life of Jesus, whom you have made several acute comments about. You have to realize that your problem is with Jesus, his life can't be disputed with. Jesus represents the life that Christians are to live. "Be like Christ," that's what a Christian is... Christ-like

I am not standing up for all christians, I can't defend christianity, but I can defend Christ.

[kyokumajr]

"his life can't be disputed with"

OwReally?

Alright, provide evidence that a divine Jesus existed

[wiiTiny]

do you even believe that the historical figure 'Jesus' existed?

[kyokumajr]

If you mean a guy named Jesus ever lived; sure; had an upper classmate named Jesus.

Or be more specific about what you mean by "historic".

[wiiTiny]

When I say historic I mean, do you think that the man, Jesus, existed in Israel. That's all I meant by 'historic.'

[kyokumajr]

A man named Jesus ever existing in Israel? Sure, why not

[wiiTiny]

K, so then how do you explain the miracles that took place through His ministry?

[kyokumajr]

Huh? o_o

Can you give evidence that any such miracles happened? (a source outside the Bible would be nice) + an eyewitness account, not a hear-say story.

[wiiTiny]

I believe in the credibility of the scriptures, and that is where I stand. The fact that the Old Testament is full of prophecies about His coming, and how all the prophecies came to pass, tells a lot. The Old Testament is very historically accurate and can be proven by any history book. The things that happened, actually happened. And that is where I stand concerning the New Testament also. I think, you should prove to me that the New Testament is a lie. Then I might consider your argument

[kyokumajr]

So... you're using the Bible to prove the Bible? Lovely.

I suggest googling "napoleon bible prophecy" since it won't allow me to post links. I'd say he fits the descriptions better than Jesus.

Ho is it accurate? Where's the Exodus? Where's the flood?

Anyway so how about that extra Biblical contemporary evidence on the Jesus son of a God?

How about some contemporary extra Biblical evidence from you?

You make extraordinary claims, you provide some evidence for those, I'm not doing your job.

[wiiTiny]

I'm not asking you to prove to me that the Bible is true. I'm done arguing, I believe what I believe what I believe for reasons I personally have. You could say it's from my experience, and I guess I would have to agree that experience does have a big effect on what people believe.

[wiiTiny]

I see the points you have made about other historical references concerning the Bible. I can't argue that it's not a valid point, I figure I don't know everything there is to know about church history from the Bible and secular documents. I'm actually thankful to you for this discussion, it has made me consider some things that I haven't considered before.

[wiiTiny]

It shows you have done some homework on this subject, fortunately, it kinda makes me want to pursue God more. So I'm gonna say good luck, but I see no point in continuing this discussion since the big difference between us is if/if not you/me believe the Bible. I've based my life on the principles of the Bible, and I'm not disappointed. I find a real purpose in my christian walk, so, I guess it's what anchors my belief.

Wish you the best.

[kyokumajr]

So completely ignored the questions, even though previously you have been claiming there is proof & etc. Now it's "well it's a personal experience"

[GermanChocolateCake]

@wiiTiny Actually, let's see YOU explain the supposed miracles and back them up with plausible evidence of both their occurrence and their implied nature as supernatural events.

Let's see you do so without reference to your scriptures. Let's see corroborated, non-scriptural, accounts of said events occurring.

We await your findings.

[wiiTiny]

Second, when you are trying to point out if Jesus is a man, or a god. The Bible, which happens to be a historically proven document, explains how Jesus gave up his "god" rights, and he came to earth to be born as a man... he was a man walking on this earth, and yes, he did die... but you completely fail to even mention how he rose from the grave. It seems to me, you are picking and choosing parts of what you would call a fairy tale, in order to back up your shit atheism.

[kyokumajr]

"which happens to be a historically proven document,"

No it's not. There are many things in the bible which have no historical reference outside this text

"explains how Jesus gave up his "god" rights, and he came to earth to be born as a man... "

Alright, give me historical evidence of that, since its "historically proven"

[kyokumajr]

"but you completely fail to even mention how he rose from the grave. It seems to me, you are picking and choosing parts of what you would call a fairy tale, in order to back up your shit atheism"

Huh? :o As personally I don't believe he was divine, if he even existed, in the first place. Stop putting words in other people's mouths.

[wiiTiny]

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You said "if Jesus was a man and died, then he died, and he's dead." So I don't think I'm making an unfair accusation.

[kyokumajr]

So what kind of a sacrifice is dying for a day when in the next three you know you become god & the rules/savior of Earth?

Can I "sacrifice" for that position?

[wiiTiny]

So now you're taking the side that he did somehow get raised from the dead?!  It sounds like you don't even now what your "getting at," but you're just mad at this "Xianity" that you experienced.

[kyokumajr]

No, I'm saying "If" he ever got raised.

[wiiTiny]

You really need to learn how to reason with your minds. You base a lot of the problems you have with the Christian faith on completely bull facts. For example, when God said Adam died He wasn't talking about physical death... and this simple truth changes the whole argument and turns it against you.

[kyokumajr]

"He wasn't talking about physical death... "

Says YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Bible & YOUR religious denomination of Xianity.

[wiiTiny]

No, because when satan lies to Eve he tricks her by putting a different spin on the words of God, yet keeping the fundamental truth the same. He tells her that she won't die, which is the principle of what God said. But satan doesn't mention anything about the fact that they'll lose the relationship they've had with God up to that point. It's what satan specializes at... - deceiving.

[kyokumajr]

So God & Satan were both doing the same thing? Not telling the truth up to the end?