Should the law encourage preventive health?

[Twiggy269]

I love Yaron.

I would love to have been able to see the look on those students faces when he said "There's is no such thing as society, not really... there just individuals" I'm sure they were like "Whaaa? No such thing as society? I don't understand."

[jcapcik]

@Twiggy269 I'm surprised we couldn't hear any gasps from the audience ;)

[amse]

I love Dr. Brook. He is always fantastic to listen to!

[zxcv73]

Let's just all say that killerbandit can't or won't understand the concept of a free market and get over it. He's anit-conceptual and can't see things out of their current state.

[Aristotle1905]

Since this is a philosophical issue from Yaron's perspective, the question of whether a given regulation is helpful or not is IRRELEVANT. The point is that it is NOT the government's role to get involved AT ALL. In a free society, there are plenty of checks and balances regarding potential abuses already: if you violate someone's rights, be prepared to be sued (for example). It's a tragic shame that most people don't understand the proper LIMITED role of government OR the concept of rights.

[killerbandit]

@Aristotle1905 - Any number of corporations that I interact with on a daily basis are infinitely more powerful than I am. You really think it is plausible for me to defend myself in an 'free market' when stacked up to a large mutlinational company?

[Skepsikyma]

@killerbandit - What types of power do these corporations hold? In a free market system they would be deprived of the use of government force. Corporations right now hold political power because our mixed economy allows them to buy off politicians in return for regulations which favor them over their competitors. A laissez-faire system maintains a complete separation between state and economy.

[Aristotle1905]

@killerbandit

In a truly free market, absolutely. First, there would be objective laws which protect individual rights; also, any corporation which repeatedly violates those rights would not last long, no matter HOW "powerful" they are. Lawsuits and more honest companies would emerge to deal with the offending company.

Skepsikyma is right about the necessity for COMPLETE separation of state and economy. I would add church, health, education etc. to the list as well.

[killerbandit]

@Aristotle1905 -What you and every other Libertarian is suggesting has never happened in the history of the human race.... because it can't happen.

[Aristotle1905]

@killerbandit

To hell with Libertarians; their fundamental axiom is "Liberty"; they have no understanding of the prior, more fundamental ideas that make liberty possible. Pure laissez faire capitalism has never existed because man lacked the necessary prior knowledge -- until Ayn Rand -- to understand it. Knowledge is hierarchical; we needed the enlightenment, industrial revolution, early America, Objectivism - IN THAT ORDER, to make it possible.

[duke1duke1]

@killerbandit This is an equivocation between economic "power" and political "power." Political power entails the use of force, economic power entails the use of offering you a benefit through trade. Economic power, in essence, is good. Economically successful corporations (or individuals) gain that wealth through giving people values.

[killerbandit]

@duke1duke1 - Economic power is amoral.

[Aristotle1905]

@killerbandit

That statement is typical of people who do not understand the difference between political and economic power. Under real Capitalism, economic power is profoundly MORAL. It is a measure of productivity, which is the MOST essential virtue needed for man to survive.  Capitalism is also the ONLY system that recognizes individual rights (another concept most people don't understand).

"Duke1duke1" is absolutely right.

[bamatecangel7]

Life is really simple if you just take the eggheads out of the gov't. The more eggheads, the more circular logic and over thinking and power that gov't takes. Bigger gov't, no matter the form is bad for you. LIke taking salt, hot peppers, red meat or beer to extremes.. you will have health problems. Well we have too many eggheads involved in ObamaCare. You can blame it on commies, socialist, facsists, Statism.. they are all eggheads anyway. Pointyheaded pseudo Intellectuals.

[RodCornholio]

If the government offered a tax credit or gave money for joining a gym, having a low fat BMI, etc. it would cause costs to go up for goods or services related to those.

Government solutions usually have unintended (i.e. backfiring) consequences.

[killerbandit]

Yaron is apparently completely inept when it comes to the cost of healthcare. What does expensive mean? Expensive is $100,000 dollars of debt for a few day in the hospital. Just a large portion of most peoples mortgages....which take 20 years to pay off for most of us.... I guess we should all just remember that we should only get sick once in our life time.

[imre1000]

@killerbandit, did you ever ask yourself why it costs $100,000 for a few days in hospital?

If private corporations were allowed to freely compete for your business, this would have easily cost FAR less than that. Probably around $5,000.

If you do some research, you'll find that Government rules and regulations are preventing real compoetition in the healthcare industry, which forces prices up.

John Stossel explains this very well in this video: /watch?v=aEXFUbSbg1I

It's very well researched.

[killerbandit]

@imre1000 - Give me an example of a government regulation that increases the cost of care with no benefit. Regulations are there for a reason. That doesn't mean that this proccess is free from abust but the spirit of regulation is for protecting people. For example it is a regulations for sanitation regulations and this without a doubt ads cost to the system.

I fail to see how getting rid of the rules will help anyone but the people who want to make a short term profit.

[Keeban3]

@killerbandit

Most regulations are not all good or all bad. They are certainly there for a reason, but that does not mean that they should be there. For example, many situations are appropriate for nurses practitioners to give anesthesia, but in most cases this is illegal. Its safer to make a doctor do it, but there aren't always enough doctors. Hence costs go up and accessibility goes down.  The proper way would be for hospitals and patients to decide the balance between cost and quality.

[imre1000]

@killerbandit, here's a few:

1. Health Insurance policies must not be sold interstate. This forces prices up.

2. If you want to build a new hospital, you need the OK from the Government - forces competition down, and prices up.

3. Many insurers are forced to cover routine doctor visits and tests. This means it's pointless to shop for a good deal or even ask for a price.

The video explains these issues much better than me: /watch?v=aEXFUbSbg1I

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

[killerbandit]

@imre1000 -

selling insurance interstate will allow companies to go to the state with the least regulations while being able sell to states with stronger regulation undermining state regulations.

You need government permission to start any business

The purpose of insurance isn't to make a profit for the executives it is to provide insurance against prohibitive costs for citizens.

[imre1000]

@killerbandit, why do state Governments need to be involved in people's health?

It should up to doctors & patients, and in extreme cases - insurance companies.

You need a special 'certificate of need' to build a hospital. You can be rejected if they decide there's already 'enough' hospitals. No other industry is managed like this.

Insurance by definition is meant for rare cases. Not for routine, everyday checkups and tests.

[bamatecangel7]

@killerbandit You need permits of various kinds to start a hotdog stand. That does not require a CON tho. No one from the gov't does a study to see if we need more hotdogs in the community for instance. CON does that for Hospitals, adding an MRI to your facility, an endoscopy center, etc. Now under King&Queen Obama's world, they might start permitting hotdog stands based on how many calories are in your dog, how schools are within 3 miles, or if you are a brown or black person vs white.

[killerbandit]

@bamatecangel7 - You kind of trailed off into I don't know what right at the end there didn't you?

Please tell me you can at least understand why the building of a hospital might require a little more communal deliberation than a hot dog stand.

[bamatecangel7]

@killerbandit Space limitations. Hospitals, hotdog stands, banks, shoe stores.. all the same when you believe in free enterprise. The market will take care of the idiots that invest their money wrong unless big brother comes to the rescue with my money. Easy, see?

[killerbandit]

@bamatecangel7 - They are not the same and to think the industries you listed are at all close is laughable.

First I would hope the regulations and rules placed on a hospital are leaps and bounds more important than what rules we place on a shoe store.

[bamatecangel7]

@killerbandit Sorry killer, I did not realize U had a head injury. I will try to type s l o w 4 U. The point is that yes indeed, they are very diff industries types. Gov't no more needs to decide if $ is best spent on a shoe store in the mall as for a new endo center or new hospital. See. The Gov't should not be the decider, we individuals should be. If I run the hospital and decide I need a new building, find the bank to loan the $ and fail. If it takes me down &/or the bank, so be it. See?

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

@killerbandit "The purpose of insurance isn't to make a profit for the executives it is to provide insurance against prohibitive costs for citizens." It's the same as saying, the purpose of restaurants is not to make profits for their owners, it is to provide nutrition for those who are hungry and/or can't cook

And enough with the exec bashing. Ins companies make profits for their shareholders, who in turn have the tools to control executives. If you don't like the execs, don't buy their stock

[TheLegalImmigrant05]

@killerbandit "You need government permission to start any business" - Not true. Not all businesses require licensing (license=permission to operate). Most don't. You have to register with the state and federal authorities for tax purposes, which is very different from asking permission. I started my company without asking anyone's permission.

[killerbandit]

I just love watching someone completely miss the whole point of a SOCIETY!

[matahaari]

With government involved in healthcare funding, they have an interest in the cost to government and will use that as a reason to impose restrictions and controls on personal activities. Skydiving can be dangerous, so can riding a bike, so can crossing the street. Any activity that poses a cost risk will eventually be regulated. Eventually society would be reduced to the lowest common existence.

[freesk8]

If I care about the health of others, it is my right to choose to attempt to persuade them to take care of themselves, or give them some money for their own care.

But it is not OK to force anyone to pay for the care of others, and it is not OK to force them (or even "incentivize" them) to take better care of themselves, and that is what govt health care does.

Great video, Yaron.

[swinewarrior]

what was this

[SouthernKudzu]

Amazing. My eyes are truly being opened w/ the more I research Ayn Rand. I've always known and agreed with these ideas, but could never really get my mind wrapped around how it is supposed to work because it has never been allowed to work freely in my lifetime.

[hyperseauton]

"no such thing as society", oh dear...

[edwardpf123]

@hyperseauton -Society is simply a conceptional abstraction that considers a number of individuals as a group. Society isn't a concrete in the sense you can point to it and say 'that is society', like you can with the individual.