Just by accident I gave this video a thumb up. Religion and religious choice is made at the expence of all other religions. Faith is being totally convinced you have chosen the right one. What if there was to appear a new God saying; "You believers are all wrong. I was just testing how brainwashed, arrogant, prejudging and hell accepting anyone could possibly be. Oh well, never mind. All is forgiven. I ---God --- is love. Peace be with you. See you in my heaven. All of you!
considering that I am not a decendent of adam or eve, I don't have to worry about such a defect, I am fully functional and sin is not a real concept. I have gained love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, and self-control since I stopped believing and subjecting myself to the abuse theology of evangelical pentecostalism. My life is MUCH better now.
@jab0805 obviously youve never heared of the vedas. they give you the art,science,culture,technology and process to achieve god realisation. Religion as you have put it meaning the bible, book of mormon qu'ran ect, the vedas are beyond all of these because all of these prophets, leaders or watever you want to call them all studied the vedas and took its message out of india along the way and through the ages this mesage has been changed and ultimatly lost but the vedas are still there.hare krsna
More threats of eternal damnation from the followers of the Lord of Mercy. Pathetic, they think they're so witty, but it's control through fear, what every tyrant through all of history has used. Obey or He'll punish you for ever and ever with more pain than you can imagine, but He does it because He loves you. Intimidation is all you got, since reason and logic fail when you got none on your side.
This is so clever! I really love one of the last lines when you say, "Not permitted to enter the after life to avoid contamination". Keep up the GREAT work!
How can a dead man accept Jesus? Your shirt said that "anyone can do it." However, God says no one can. Are we not saved BY grace THROUGH faith in Christ alone?
Sorry but god, according to the scriptures, did write the virus.
"Tobacco's lies did not force people to smoke."
It's not a perfect analogy. The tobacco companies aren't like god. They don't create the nature that causes you to either desire smoking, or be pressured into smoking. God does. He/she/it created our nature, according to your mythology, our nature includes desires and urges. The urge to do good or bad.
@riseofatheism According to the Bible, it was not our original nature(to "do bad"); Eve was deceived. When cigarettes were thought to be good for you (approved by the FDA), people smoked. However, unlike the Bible, the tobacco companies don't tell you, to my knowledge, that it was once "ok" to smoke/chew. However, do not take my comment as focusing on the example, but instead using the example you provided to illustrate a point: Our original nature is not to "do bad".
What difference does it make what the original nature of a human was? First off, Adam and Eve is fictional anyway, but granting you the story, who created the new nature? Where did it come from? Thin air? Just out of no where? Something had to have implemented the new nature. And don't say Adam and Eve. The new nature came from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
@riseofatheism Well, I am sorry my friend. I thought your original argument was one of the original nature of us in question (as, I thought, provided by your example which was not the point of your comment). I think the true argument (a good one) you pose is the purpose of the tree and it's fruit, but I could be wrong. I have not studied this aspect of the story and I am glad you brought it up. Thank you and thank you again for questioning things in this world.
The designer should be fired! Putting a malfunctioning product on the market without sufficient testing. Then trying to retrofit the product with some convoluted repair procedure. And to top it off he tries to shift the blame for his screw up to the owners of the malfunctioning units. What a low life.
@ozmoroid Dont worry! The "Actual" one that caused the defect will be delt with along with the defects. Have hope for It does all work out in the end.
@Hairgod1234 Well said. Let's find out who designed the "actual one" who caused all the problems and stick it to that crook! How dare he put a dangerous product out on the market. Hold him accountable!!!!
I really can't see how you think this is fair and just. If god is omnipotent and omniscient and created humans then he is ultimately responsible for any actions made by them. And threatening to torture his creation for acting according to the human nature that he himself gave them if they dont believe in him is an insult to the word of justice.
@12tod if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then why would any intelligent creature not obey what He commands? I think it is because we do not like to walk by faith, but try to seek our own selfish pleasure, but b/c we are relatively stupid, this does not lead to the happiness we wanted. Do you really think feeble human reasoning can contradict what God says is just? Is it not more reasonable to seek with a truly open mind the truth and goodness that God says is in His words and commands?
I had something like that posted on another channel that I had a couple years ago - it got suspended. But I really like the human recall notice - it's really good.
No threats, just warnings. It's God's loving nature that won't allow sin into heaven, and it's peoples' sinful, hateful, and unrepentant actions that cause them to go to hell, not God. God loves everyone and wishes every single person to be saved.
@Kanbei85 Do you even know God's will? Let me show you what it is.
John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
Where does that say anything about God wishing every single person saved? Have you ever read John 17, by any chance? You'll be surprised that God doesn't wish for every single person to be saved.
That's quite an unfortunate untruth you're propagating there. Do you really think God doesn't love every single one of His creations more than can be comprehended? If so, you definitely do not understand God. (I'm not claiming a complete understanding of God, not by a longshot).
2 Peter 3:9 :(KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
@Kanbei85 WOW! Your exegesis on 2 Peter 3:9 is horrible! How can you ignore the word "US-ward"? Or ignore verse 1, where Peter said "Beloved" and "you", meaning that he is talking to *AND* about BELIEVERS! I bet you take Revelation 3:20 out its context too, huh?
Like I said before, read John 17 on who EXACTLY Christ was praying for right before he went on the cross. And if God "wishes" for everyone to be saved, then why were the Gentiles excluded from the covenant for over 4000 years?
Your exegesis of the passage in question causes it to become nonsensical, as the passage implies that there is some question over whether all will come to repentance. If the "us" in question is merely the "elect", or those who love God, then there's no question that they will come to repentance. In fact the theme of human responsibility and choice runs throughout the whole of the Bible. You cannot understand the Bible without understanding that humans have to make moral choices.
Regarding Gentiles: if you read Romans, you will know that just because the Gentiles weren't part of the old testament covenant, that didn't mean they were being condemned to hell. That's an extremely oversimplified view of scripture. The hebrews had a special place in Gods plan for history- that doesn't mean they were the only ones God loved!! The same is true today of Christians- we have a special role in the history of the world, but God loves all, and condemns no one unfairly.
You're making God out to be capricious and unfair. Why would God not love any person, who is His own creation? God does not play favorites. God loves universally and unconditionally.
1 John 4:7-8
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
It's true that many passages in the bible that deal with the concept of election or predestination are enigmatic and difficult to give a simple explanation to. But in the end, our human understanding is not likely great enough to fully comprehend God's working. We shouldn't expect to understand it all fully. But what we do know is that everyone has the power to choose to either love or to hate God, and we will be given what we ask for in the end.
@Kanbei85 Just because we are told to love another, doesn't mean God does i.e. Esau and Psalm 5:5.
Do you understand God's commands and God's decrees? God commands not to murder, yet he decreed Jesus' crucifixion. God commands us not to lie, yet he sends lying spirits i.e. false prophets.
@Kanbei85 So, since they, the Gentiles, weren't part of the covenant for thousands of years, they weren't being condemned to hell? Did they not die in their sins?. Where did they go then when they died then?
@Kanbei85 What is the whole context of 2 Peter 3:9? Peter was comforting fellow believers in that those who are of the elect will be saved. This is why Jesus said "all which he hath given me I should lose nothing".
None of Jesus' sheep will perish, as he tell us in John 10:28. And sorry, I didn't mean exegesis, I meant eisegesis since your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 is flawed.
@theheat151 sorry i am not sure what exactly it is you are saying. Let's stay with the first point i think we disagree upon. Do you believe God does NOT will all men to be saved?
@urbanh196398105 What is your interpretation of these following verses?
John 12:40 "He[God] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereUNTO also they were APPOINTED."
Also read Jude 1:4 how false prophets were ORDAINED to condemnation.
@theheat151 Look brother i asked you a simple question, and you responded with a bunch of verses and ask my interpretation. if you don't really want to say where you stand that's fine, but here's where i stand: God loves every single person and desires every single one of them to be in heaven with Him - the choice is theirs. That is Christianity 101 - if you don't get that you can read the bible cover to cover and you will never rightly understand any of it.
@urbanh196398105 Why avoid giving me an interpretation to the verses that I posted? Is it because it destroys your man-made theology? I bet!
These verses I posted show that God does not desire everyone to be saved. John 12:40 says that God blinded people so they would not see the truth so that they could be converted. 1 Peter 2:8 says that those who stumble to the truth of Christ, stumble because they were APPOINTED to stumble. Jude 1:4 says that false prophets were ORDAINED to condemnation.
@theheat151 all the people referred to by your verses could be saved at any point before they die - IF THEY REPENT. Don't you get it? The choice is in our hands - God has put it there - He has given us the power to choose.
There - now i have answered your question and you still have not answered mine: Do you honestly believe that God does NOT will all men to be saved?
@urbanh196398105 Wrong! It is clear as day these people were NOT ordained to salvation. And repentance does NOT come from man, it comes from GOD(Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4, & 2 Timothy 2:25).
As for you question, I already answered them in the verses that I provided. If God desires ALL men to be saved, then why were the Gentiles left out of the old covenant for nealy 4 thousand years? Why did it take 3.5 years after Christ's crucifixion for the Gospel to be preached to a Gentile?
@theheat151 ok i see. Well all i can say is i believe that God wills all men to be saved - it says so right there in 1 Tim 2 v4 and other places as well. The overwhelming majority of Christians do believe this, that God wills all men to be saved. if you don't believe it maybe you are onto something that everybody else has missed - but i doubt it. Hope to see you in heaven. And don't let anybody tell you you can't get there b/c with God all things are possible - Jesus said that too.
@urbanh196398105 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God "WILL HAVE all men to be saved". Do you understand what "WILL HAVE" means?
And who cares what majority of what Christians believe in? Most don't even read their Scriptures. Do yourself a favor: Read John 17(especially verse 9), then come back and tell me that Jesus was "willing" to have all men saved.
@theheat151 friend, i'm not a bible scholar - and it doesn't sound like you are either. i already told you i believe God wills all men to be saved. We disagree. You're not going to change my mind about that because there are some people who read the Bible and don't even understand what they're reading. Frankly i think you're one of them. All i can say is if you ever get down and out and you're wondering if God wants to save you or not, you can be encouraged: HE DOES.
@urbanh196398105 You're right, you not even close to a scholar. I, on the otherhand, have provided numerous verses debunking your claim that God WILLS all men to be saved. 2nd Tim 2:4 clearly says that God "WILL HAVE all men to be saved". Tell me, what does that mean to you? Is it a desire, or is it something that will come to pass?
And have you read John 17 yet? I doubt you have. Now, if God desires all men to be saved, then why were the Gentiles left out of the covent for 4000 years? Hmmm?
@theheat151 Look, 1 Tim 2 v4 (1st Tim, not 2nd Tim - you're getting mixed up there) means God wills all men to be saved, which is what i believe. i told you that. you're reading a bible you can't even understand. learn the english of the day the KJV was written or else get yourself a Living Bible. You are fighting like crazy to try to prove that God does not want all people to be saved. Why? I think there might be something wrong with you.
@urbanh196398105 Wrong! It doesn't say God "wills all men to be saved". It says God "WILL HAVE all men to be saved". Do you even understand what "WILL HAVE" means? "WILL HAVE" is an action that will happen - it's not just a desire.
Read Isa 55:11, where God talks about his word not returning void and accomplishing that which he pleases. Whatever God pleases and desires will come to pass(Isa 46:10).
And you have still yet to answer my question: why did God leave out the gentiles in the OT?
@urbanh196398105 Since you have yet read John 17, I'll post a passage from it and then you tell me if God is willing that all, without exception and not distinction, to be saved.
John 17 -
9 I pray for them: I pray *NOT* for the world, *BUT* for them which thou hast *GIVEN* me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Is Jesus hear praying his last prayer for everyman everywhere, or ONLY for those that God gives him?
@theheat151 so you think He is only going to save believers? Ok, then wouldn't it make sense to show your Christian love and to go forth and help everyone BECOME believers? Or have you also figured out who is going to become a believer and who isn't and when and how all that happens? The point your are insanely arguing is moot - we do not know who will or will not be saved just by looking at them - only God knows that. We have to assume He wants everyone to be saved.
@urbanh196398105 You said, "we do not know who will or will not be saved just by looking at them - only God knows that" ...and I say DUH! That is why we are commanded to preach the Gospel everywhere, because God's children, the elect, are scattered abroad(John 11:52). His word will not return void(Isa 55:11).
Now, If God desires all men to be saved, then why did Jesus ONLY pray for those God gives him in John 17:9? Why were the Gentiles left out the covenant for 4000 years?
@Kanbei85 - i agree with you because 1 Tim 2 v4 says clearly that God our Savior DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
@urbanh196398105 And if God really desires all men to be saved, as you imply, then why doesn't he save them? Does he not declare the end from the beginning according to his pleasure?
Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do ALL my pleasure"
@theheat151 - brother i do not know why exactly because we cannot know the mind of God. His ways are so far above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. I only know that the bible clearly says that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. God allows evil, because men have free will and some men love evil and so they do evil. It wouldn't make sense to force people to do good like they were puppets. God is a gentleman - He doesn't force Himself on us.
@urbanh196398105 It's not just a desire. 1st Timothy 2:4 clearly says God "*WILL HAVE* all men to be saved". That is something that will come to pass. Isaiah 46:10 says that God does everything according to his pleasure. So if God really desires all men to be saved, then he will. But we know that isn't the truth.
And who says that we are robots? The Scriptures are clear that God is the potter and man is the clay. Therefore, the Potter can do anything eh wants the lump of clay.
@theheat151 There is God's perfect will and God's permitting will. God's perfect will is that all men be saved, but unlike an inanimate clay pot God has made man in His image with free will - we must conform our will to His will if we want to be in heaven. We have the power to choose evil, but there is no evil in heaven so we land in hell if we don't repent. Maybe an analogy would be a human father who loves his son, but if his son commits a crime agrees with the justice of him going to jail.
Very good urbanh. I really don't understand why some people try to claim that God only loves them and their small little group of lucky people. It's a blasphemy to beat all blasphemies, and I pray for them because God hates that kind of behavior.
@Kanbei85 Amen - and thanks - i agree we must pray for those in error - prayer is key. God willing and with His grace we dispel ignorance and error with the truth. imagine how easy it is to fall into despair if you are wondering something as basic as whether or not God loves you or whether or not He wants you to be with Him in heaven? of course He does! not to be rude or arrogant but let's face it that is really Christianity 101. They don't call it the Good News for nothing! :-)
@urbanh196398105 Do you have any Scripture supporting what you believe? You said, "so we land in hell if we don't repent". So, I ask you, where does repentance come from?
You also said, "God's perfect will is that all men be saved". Well, I ask for this verse. Jesus was clear when he said that God's will is "that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."(John 6:39).
@urbanh196398105 You also said, "God has made man in His image with free will". Well, why not also omnipresent or omniscience? Do you even know that God's free-will is limited? He can't sin! It's against his nature, just like it's against man's nature to call or seek God as Scripture tells us(Isaiah 64:7, Romans 3:10-12).
If your will is truly autonomous, can you stop sinning?.
Your analogy fails. God is supposedly the creator of ALL. In your analogy, Bill Gates doesn't create the viruses. If he did, then yes he would be the one to blame. I think a better analogy is the tobacco companies that make the shit that kills you, then sell you the gum to cure you. They're assholes.
Great job, Daniel. Btw, innately men recognize (and we've built it into all our business law code) the justice obligation that a saleable manufactured widget must perform to spec according to the manufacturer's intended purpose. And yet, we humans somehow believe we're independent and without obligation to our Creator. [Go figure.] But it doesn't change a thing -- Jesus IS Lord. And we owe Him EVERYTHING. Moreover, praise be to God -- He's given us His everything.
@NomosCharis I never used the word "easy", I used "simple" like the shirt says. With that being said, the Scriptures are clear that salvation is not that simple, since NONE call upon and NONE seek him. If what the Scriptures say is true, then how is it "simple"?
How is "repent and believe" not simple? Simple means easily understood, uncomplicated, or straightforward. Salvation is most assuredly a simple plan. I think you're confusing simple/complicated with easy/hard. Something can be very simple, yet not be easy. The life and walk of a believer is not easy, but it is simple. Trust Jesus.
What does your question have to do with the point of simplicity vs ease? It now appears you really weren't concerned for that point, but looking for a way to work in your favorite pet doctrinal debate.
God is the source of all that is good. This, too, is a simple concept.
@mtcanz The point is, if repentance and faith both come from God as Scripture points out many times, then salvation isn't "simple" as the shirt implies.
Matthew 19 -
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
I'm sorry, but you "simply" do not understand the meaning of the word, "simple". You are trying to make it something that it's not, and again I suspect it's because you are more interested in a particular debate of another topic.
Do you understand "complexity" and "simplicity" can co-exist? What simplicity cannot share the stage with is "confusion" or "complication". But a simple idea can grow in complexity without ever violating its simplicity.
@mtcanz I'm sorry, but your not understanding my point. If both faith and repentance come from God, as Scriptures tells us, then salvation is not "simple" as the shirt implies. And no, I am not looking for a debate. All I did was make a statement about the shirt. You and Nomos, on the otherhand, were the ones who replied to me.
That faith and repentance come from God make it all the MORE simple - not less. We cannot corrupt nor change that which comes from Him, because its source is more sure than if it originated with us.
What we must do to be saved is simple because it is not complicated. It is not a complex, confusing, burdensome list of grievous commands. It's one thing: repentance and faith. Trust. Reposing oneself in the person and work of Christ. That is an incredibly simple thing (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ANYONE ACTUALLY DOES IT OR NOT). The fact that it is simple is one of the reasons why everyone is so guilty for not doing it (you see that don't you?).
@NomosCharis And where does repentance and faith come from? It surely cannot come from man since we are told that NONE call upon God and NONE seek him.
a malfunction he will punish us for? threatening us with eternal torture for a defect you admit he created makes your god even more of a hypocrite, bully, and incompetent being then i could ever imagine any human portraying. even hitlers punishment on the jews was, at the very least, finite.
God gives us free will. We trample Him with free-will choices. He then gives us the way through the consequences of the trampling -- at great cost and suffering to Himself (Let me know when I get to the unfair, meanie part).
The only ones judged will be those who have rejected the escape, having only themselves to blame.
@riseofatheism Funny how every sekt seems to claims to be the truly blessed or saved.
These "newborn christians"..,lol.
They will look another christian / catholic straight in the eye and tell him or her there are going to hell "because you aren't newborne, you still carry the original sin"
But NO, they don't think they are better then you, they are just saying you will burn forever if you don't become a newborn christian.
I'm glad i don't need all of these stories to keep me in line...
@riseofatheism Did God the Lord force you to lie,steal, disobey authority in your life? Or did you choose that yourself? So who's to blame here, that's what is wrong here in America today. People putting the blame on someone else instead being humble to admit they messed up. Like when a lady goes to starbucks and spills her coffee and sues them cause it's hot. Or people sueing McDonalds for putting toy's in the kids meal, or for being fat. Come get real and think first. Use your brain.
I could go on for hours on free will vs. omniscience. But let me make it simple for time's sake. If god created me with a nature to disobey, and I disobey, should he really be surprised? I mean he's omniscient, he should know that I'm going to fuck up. If he does know, and he knows that I will be condemned to hell for it then he's a dick. So far no analogy can own up to god giving us free will, creating and allowing evil, and being omniscient. Sorry but it's still his fault.
@riseofatheism Wouldn't you rather have the free will which includes something as simple as deciding what to wear tomorrow or something as serious as to rob a bank? It's all considered free will, what you do with that free will is up to you. But we ALL have to answer to a higher authority if we use our free will in a bad way. The higher authority will not force us to do the right thing, we have to truly deep down want to do the right thing.
@hopecharstar cont.2 - Sure you rob a bank and get caught and will be put in prison. Your free will then is limited. But you still have it and what will you ultimately choose to do with it, rob another bank when you get out or fight that free will to do what is right and good?
@hopecharstar cont.3 - Having a free will shows a persons character. God had to give us a free will, if He hadn’t we wouldn’t have the choice to follow Him or not, and that would be like Him forcing us to Love Him and that wouldn’t be True Love now would it?
@hopecharstar cont.4 - Look at this scenario of let’s say not having a free will. We have an abusive husband with his wife backed into a wall with his fist raised ready to hit yelling, “TELL ME YOU LOVE ME!.” Out of fear she will probably say, “I love you”. But ultimately do you think she meant it? This is where people who don’t believe blame God for the bad things, but don’t understand that the only other option to not having a choice would be to be forced.
In other words, god supposedly knows, even before he creates us, and this is all in Christian doctrine, where my soul is destined after I die. If I am DESTINED for hell, how on earth can I change that. If I do change that, then I wasn't destined for hell and god didn't know, and therefore is not omniscient. If I do go to hell as preordained, then god is an asshole for creating me and letting it happen knowing in advanced what was going to happen.
God's omniscience does not mean He determines our actions. Our actions are freely made, and God's love means allowing us to have what we want, even if that means eternal separation from Him (and that means hell, since all good comes from God).
It's clear that many people can't seem to grasp the very simple concept. If god already knows what I'm going to do and where I'm destined to go after I die, and there is absolutely nothing that can change that, (because if it changes, then he didn't really know did he?) then god, if he had any sense at all, wouldn't create me knowing I'd be tortured forever. I mean if he really loved me.
You are ignoring the most central component here: YOU. You're taking no credit for your own actions and blaming God for what YOU do. This is horrible, evil and foolish. God may know all things, but giving YOU the FREEDOM to choose means NOT intervening to prevent you from making your own choice. You have the choice: follow God, or hate him and blame him for your own evil. If God didn't allow people to choose to hate Him, then all He would have is a bunch of mindless slaves.
"You're taking no credit for your own actions and blaming God for what YOU do."
If god created me, and everything about me, then he also created my sinful nature. To deny that is ignorant. If god created everything, he created evil. If god created everything, he created the desire to do bad things. If god created everything he created the urge to disobey. How on earth is that my fault? It's one thing to give something free will, and another to give something preordained desires.
God did not create evil. God created free beings, and some of those beings chose evil. God's love for us means allowing us freedom to choose rather than making us automatons. What about this can't you understand?
Those being choose evil because they have an original desire to do evil. That desire HAS to have an original source. That source, by your definition, must be god. Sorry, but you can't wrestle your way out of it.
Incorrect. The source of our desire to do evil is what Christians call our "sinful nature", which was inherited from Adam and Eve, the father and mother of our species, both of whom freely chose evil over good and brought down on all of us this curse. We are all still individually free to choose good over evil through faith, and though we may be sinners while on this Earth, God promises to free us from that sinful nature in the next life if we choose Him.
And I find that to be morally reprehensible to. Why would an all loving god let the actions of 2 people, (which I don't even think their actions qualify as evil as just explained), determine the fate of every generation? Why do we all have to be endowed with this sinful nature? Why can't we start in the garden and not have the sinful nature? How can you possibly view any of this as a moral system?
You ask questions like an obstinate child. We don't need to know the specific answers to why God does everything He does in exactly the way He does it- the answer would be over our heads anyway at this point; we know what we need to know to choose good instead of evil, and I'll pray you'll turn from the evil you're apparently in the midst of and seek God's love.
Because we have the freedom to choose, God credits us with the good we do in our lives- we don't credit ourselves mind you- but really we are only following the example of good from the ultimate source of all goodness- God. It's foolish egoism to credit yourself for goodness rather than the creator and sustainer of all that is good.
If you can credit god with you acting goo, then it follows that you can credit god with acting bad. If you say no, you're special pleading. End of story.
It's one thing to create a robot with no desires and no urges. But we are all born with the urge and desire to do certain things. Those desires and urges came from where? If not god, then where? Did they create themselves? Did the devil do it? If your answer is the devil, then I can't help but ask why god doesn't get rid of him?
If God doesn't create you, He doesn't love you, for you cannot love what never existed. The only way love truly exists is with the choice to love or not to love - the choice to do good or evil. The bottom line is, the accountability is entirely with you and He has STILL made the way for you in spite of your choices. The only choice He will not overcome for you is the one that outright rejects His offer to you. And you want to blame Him for that one?
Our actions may not be determined by god, (that's a separate discussion), but our actions ARE known in advanced, before he even creates us. And if hes really as all knowing as you say, even before there was a universe. Before genesis 1:1. And if he knows I will be sent to hell eternally then he's a dick for letting me exist anyway knowing that's the outcome. At least Terminator tried to change what he knew was the outcome.
The defect is not free will, it's the "sin nature" inherited from our ultimate father and mother, the first people, Adam and Eve, who were cursed by God for freely choosing evil over good.
They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That means that prior to eating of the fruit of that tree, there's no possible way they could have known that it was evil. Even if god says don't do it, they have no knowledge of what is good and evil, otherwise there would be no reason for the tree. The whole story is an exercise in stupidity.
such idiocy...
Grandlett 10 months ago
This almost seems like a parody...
USAGIchiban 1 year ago
Just by accident I gave this video a thumb up. Religion and religious choice is made at the expence of all other religions. Faith is being totally convinced you have chosen the right one. What if there was to appear a new God saying; "You believers are all wrong. I was just testing how brainwashed, arrogant, prejudging and hell accepting anyone could possibly be. Oh well, never mind. All is forgiven. I ---God --- is love. Peace be with you. See you in my heaven. All of you!
Toggen62 1 year ago
considering that I am not a decendent of adam or eve, I don't have to worry about such a defect, I am fully functional and sin is not a real concept. I have gained love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, and self-control since I stopped believing and subjecting myself to the abuse theology of evangelical pentecostalism. My life is MUCH better now.
ainefairygoddess 1 year ago
Religion is flawed. is authority based. It always loses to scientific reasoning.
jab0805 1 year ago
@jab0805 obviously youve never heared of the vedas. they give you the art,science,culture,technology and process to achieve god realisation. Religion as you have put it meaning the bible, book of mormon qu'ran ect, the vedas are beyond all of these because all of these prophets, leaders or watever you want to call them all studied the vedas and took its message out of india along the way and through the ages this mesage has been changed and ultimatly lost but the vedas are still there.hare krsna
megaspasm 1 year ago
More threats of eternal damnation from the followers of the Lord of Mercy. Pathetic, they think they're so witty, but it's control through fear, what every tyrant through all of history has used. Obey or He'll punish you for ever and ever with more pain than you can imagine, but He does it because He loves you. Intimidation is all you got, since reason and logic fail when you got none on your side.
disrxt 1 year ago
Awesome video !!!
krisv001 1 year ago
see you in hell daniel
enemyofall67 1 year ago
@enemyofall67 ...not a chance...
theTRUTHgroup 1 year ago 4
oh yeah this one was a good one Daniel keep up the good work
Epoch03 1 year ago
AWESOME, brother! Where did you get this??
joshpj84 1 year ago
This is so clever! I really love one of the last lines when you say, "Not permitted to enter the after life to avoid contamination". Keep up the GREAT work!
randyvild 1 year ago
again, this video rocks =)
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
dude...this video touched me. it put ALOT into perspective for me :) God bless you and thank you for putting this video out.
christianrocker7 1 year ago
How can a dead man accept Jesus? Your shirt said that "anyone can do it." However, God says no one can. Are we not saved BY grace THROUGH faith in Christ alone?
enjoyed the creativity.
zkueker88 1 year ago
@zkueker88 I know, right?
theheat151 1 year ago
great message!
MeanHacker 1 year ago
Lol. Nice approach, great video!
winkerweezel 1 year ago
LOL humans have more defects than just that. Yaweh needs an upgrade because it seems to be an inferior unit.
PinkProgram 1 year ago
@callingheyzeus
Sorry but god, according to the scriptures, did write the virus.
"Tobacco's lies did not force people to smoke."
It's not a perfect analogy. The tobacco companies aren't like god. They don't create the nature that causes you to either desire smoking, or be pressured into smoking. God does. He/she/it created our nature, according to your mythology, our nature includes desires and urges. The urge to do good or bad.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism According to the Bible, it was not our original nature(to "do bad"); Eve was deceived. When cigarettes were thought to be good for you (approved by the FDA), people smoked. However, unlike the Bible, the tobacco companies don't tell you, to my knowledge, that it was once "ok" to smoke/chew. However, do not take my comment as focusing on the example, but instead using the example you provided to illustrate a point: Our original nature is not to "do bad".
ClickHereNowTruth 1 year ago
@ClickHereNowTruth
What difference does it make what the original nature of a human was? First off, Adam and Eve is fictional anyway, but granting you the story, who created the new nature? Where did it come from? Thin air? Just out of no where? Something had to have implemented the new nature. And don't say Adam and Eve. The new nature came from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism Well, I am sorry my friend. I thought your original argument was one of the original nature of us in question (as, I thought, provided by your example which was not the point of your comment). I think the true argument (a good one) you pose is the purpose of the tree and it's fruit, but I could be wrong. I have not studied this aspect of the story and I am glad you brought it up. Thank you and thank you again for questioning things in this world.
ClickHereNowTruth 1 year ago
God made something defective and now had to fix it?
LivingOnVideo13 1 year ago
Cool.
setonz 1 year ago
LOL - i just got it - the "Knee Mail" option - heheheh - cute.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
So i found the fruits of the spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 in case anybody else wants to look it up :-)
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control"
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
LOL - this is good. "Thank You" :-)
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
Ha ha, that was pretty good :P
95TurboSol 1 year ago
"Foul vocal emissions" lol
Well done sir! Excellent analogy and presentation!
firecharger 1 year ago
And there you have it: god is a corporation. He'll knowingly send defective goods to market, conduct a recall, and still blame the user.
TheRichDarkEarth 1 year ago
The designer should be fired! Putting a malfunctioning product on the market without sufficient testing. Then trying to retrofit the product with some convoluted repair procedure. And to top it off he tries to shift the blame for his screw up to the owners of the malfunctioning units. What a low life.
ozmoroid 1 year ago 3
@ozmoroid Dont worry! The "Actual" one that caused the defect will be delt with along with the defects. Have hope for It does all work out in the end.
Hairgod1234 1 year ago
@Hairgod1234 Well said. Let's find out who designed the "actual one" who caused all the problems and stick it to that crook! How dare he put a dangerous product out on the market. Hold him accountable!!!!
ozmoroid 1 year ago
Very clever =)
quilesboy 1 year ago
A clever idea for presenting the gospel of jesus.
I really can't see how you think this is fair and just. If god is omnipotent and omniscient and created humans then he is ultimately responsible for any actions made by them. And threatening to torture his creation for acting according to the human nature that he himself gave them if they dont believe in him is an insult to the word of justice.
12tod 1 year ago
@12tod if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then why would any intelligent creature not obey what He commands? I think it is because we do not like to walk by faith, but try to seek our own selfish pleasure, but b/c we are relatively stupid, this does not lead to the happiness we wanted. Do you really think feeble human reasoning can contradict what God says is just? Is it not more reasonable to seek with a truly open mind the truth and goodness that God says is in His words and commands?
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
Awesome vid.
Soul4JC 1 year ago
Very CLEVER!!
aethiops007 1 year ago
I had something like that posted on another channel that I had a couple years ago - it got suspended. But I really like the human recall notice - it's really good.
FireThunderTV 1 year ago
we are robots and god is a telemarketer.
8bitvelociraptor 1 year ago
"Amnesia of Origins"
Good one. ;-)
justchemicalz 1 year ago
Buy or get killed
olanordmann49 1 year ago
Cults threaten burning in hell (furnace)... Not very loving at all to threaten...
EarlandPatty 1 year ago
@EarlandPatty
No threats, just warnings. It's God's loving nature that won't allow sin into heaven, and it's peoples' sinful, hateful, and unrepentant actions that cause them to go to hell, not God. God loves everyone and wishes every single person to be saved.
Kanbei85 1 year ago 7
@Kanbei85 God doesn't make wishes.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151
Don't play word games. I'm talking about God's will.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 Do you even know God's will? Let me show you what it is.
John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
Where does that say anything about God wishing every single person saved? Have you ever read John 17, by any chance? You'll be surprised that God doesn't wish for every single person to be saved.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151
That's quite an unfortunate untruth you're propagating there. Do you really think God doesn't love every single one of His creations more than can be comprehended? If so, you definitely do not understand God. (I'm not claiming a complete understanding of God, not by a longshot).
2 Peter 3:9 :(KJV)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 WOW! Your exegesis on 2 Peter 3:9 is horrible! How can you ignore the word "US-ward"? Or ignore verse 1, where Peter said "Beloved" and "you", meaning that he is talking to *AND* about BELIEVERS! I bet you take Revelation 3:20 out its context too, huh?
Like I said before, read John 17 on who EXACTLY Christ was praying for right before he went on the cross. And if God "wishes" for everyone to be saved, then why were the Gentiles excluded from the covenant for over 4000 years?
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151
Your exegesis of the passage in question causes it to become nonsensical, as the passage implies that there is some question over whether all will come to repentance. If the "us" in question is merely the "elect", or those who love God, then there's no question that they will come to repentance. In fact the theme of human responsibility and choice runs throughout the whole of the Bible. You cannot understand the Bible without understanding that humans have to make moral choices.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
Regarding Gentiles: if you read Romans, you will know that just because the Gentiles weren't part of the old testament covenant, that didn't mean they were being condemned to hell. That's an extremely oversimplified view of scripture. The hebrews had a special place in Gods plan for history- that doesn't mean they were the only ones God loved!! The same is true today of Christians- we have a special role in the history of the world, but God loves all, and condemns no one unfairly.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
You're making God out to be capricious and unfair. Why would God not love any person, who is His own creation? God does not play favorites. God loves universally and unconditionally.
1 John 4:7-8
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
It's true that many passages in the bible that deal with the concept of election or predestination are enigmatic and difficult to give a simple explanation to. But in the end, our human understanding is not likely great enough to fully comprehend God's working. We shouldn't expect to understand it all fully. But what we do know is that everyone has the power to choose to either love or to hate God, and we will be given what we ask for in the end.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 Just because we are told to love another, doesn't mean God does i.e. Esau and Psalm 5:5.
Do you understand God's commands and God's decrees? God commands not to murder, yet he decreed Jesus' crucifixion. God commands us not to lie, yet he sends lying spirits i.e. false prophets.
theheat151 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 So, since they, the Gentiles, weren't part of the covenant for thousands of years, they weren't being condemned to hell? Did they not die in their sins?. Where did they go then when they died then?
theheat151 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 What is the whole context of 2 Peter 3:9? Peter was comforting fellow believers in that those who are of the elect will be saved. This is why Jesus said "all which he hath given me I should lose nothing".
None of Jesus' sheep will perish, as he tell us in John 10:28. And sorry, I didn't mean exegesis, I meant eisegesis since your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 is flawed.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 - 1 Tim 2 v4 says clearly that God our Savior DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 ERRR! It doesn't say God "desires". In fact it says:
1 Timothy 2:4 "Who *WILL HAVE* all men to be saved..."
As you can see, it's not just a desire - it's something that will indeed happen. God *WILL HAVE* his elect saved!
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 sorry i am not sure what exactly it is you are saying. Let's stay with the first point i think we disagree upon. Do you believe God does NOT will all men to be saved?
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 What is your interpretation of these following verses?
John 12:40 "He[God] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereUNTO also they were APPOINTED."
Also read Jude 1:4 how false prophets were ORDAINED to condemnation.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 Look brother i asked you a simple question, and you responded with a bunch of verses and ask my interpretation. if you don't really want to say where you stand that's fine, but here's where i stand: God loves every single person and desires every single one of them to be in heaven with Him - the choice is theirs. That is Christianity 101 - if you don't get that you can read the bible cover to cover and you will never rightly understand any of it.
watch?v=hAuMoE56f2w
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 Why avoid giving me an interpretation to the verses that I posted? Is it because it destroys your man-made theology? I bet!
These verses I posted show that God does not desire everyone to be saved. John 12:40 says that God blinded people so they would not see the truth so that they could be converted. 1 Peter 2:8 says that those who stumble to the truth of Christ, stumble because they were APPOINTED to stumble. Jude 1:4 says that false prophets were ORDAINED to condemnation.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 all the people referred to by your verses could be saved at any point before they die - IF THEY REPENT. Don't you get it? The choice is in our hands - God has put it there - He has given us the power to choose.
There - now i have answered your question and you still have not answered mine: Do you honestly believe that God does NOT will all men to be saved?
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 Wrong! It is clear as day these people were NOT ordained to salvation. And repentance does NOT come from man, it comes from GOD(Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Romans 2:4, & 2 Timothy 2:25).
As for you question, I already answered them in the verses that I provided. If God desires ALL men to be saved, then why were the Gentiles left out of the old covenant for nealy 4 thousand years? Why did it take 3.5 years after Christ's crucifixion for the Gospel to be preached to a Gentile?
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 ok i see. Well all i can say is i believe that God wills all men to be saved - it says so right there in 1 Tim 2 v4 and other places as well. The overwhelming majority of Christians do believe this, that God wills all men to be saved. if you don't believe it maybe you are onto something that everybody else has missed - but i doubt it. Hope to see you in heaven. And don't let anybody tell you you can't get there b/c with God all things are possible - Jesus said that too.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God "WILL HAVE all men to be saved". Do you understand what "WILL HAVE" means?
And who cares what majority of what Christians believe in? Most don't even read their Scriptures. Do yourself a favor: Read John 17(especially verse 9), then come back and tell me that Jesus was "willing" to have all men saved.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 friend, i'm not a bible scholar - and it doesn't sound like you are either. i already told you i believe God wills all men to be saved. We disagree. You're not going to change my mind about that because there are some people who read the Bible and don't even understand what they're reading. Frankly i think you're one of them. All i can say is if you ever get down and out and you're wondering if God wants to save you or not, you can be encouraged: HE DOES.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 You're right, you not even close to a scholar. I, on the otherhand, have provided numerous verses debunking your claim that God WILLS all men to be saved. 2nd Tim 2:4 clearly says that God "WILL HAVE all men to be saved". Tell me, what does that mean to you? Is it a desire, or is it something that will come to pass?
And have you read John 17 yet? I doubt you have. Now, if God desires all men to be saved, then why were the Gentiles left out of the covent for 4000 years? Hmmm?
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 Look, 1 Tim 2 v4 (1st Tim, not 2nd Tim - you're getting mixed up there) means God wills all men to be saved, which is what i believe. i told you that. you're reading a bible you can't even understand. learn the english of the day the KJV was written or else get yourself a Living Bible. You are fighting like crazy to try to prove that God does not want all people to be saved. Why? I think there might be something wrong with you.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 Wrong! It doesn't say God "wills all men to be saved". It says God "WILL HAVE all men to be saved". Do you even understand what "WILL HAVE" means? "WILL HAVE" is an action that will happen - it's not just a desire.
Read Isa 55:11, where God talks about his word not returning void and accomplishing that which he pleases. Whatever God pleases and desires will come to pass(Isa 46:10).
And you have still yet to answer my question: why did God leave out the gentiles in the OT?
theheat151 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 Since you have yet read John 17, I'll post a passage from it and then you tell me if God is willing that all, without exception and not distinction, to be saved.
John 17 -
9 I pray for them: I pray *NOT* for the world, *BUT* for them which thou hast *GIVEN* me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Is Jesus hear praying his last prayer for everyman everywhere, or ONLY for those that God gives him?
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 so you think He is only going to save believers? Ok, then wouldn't it make sense to show your Christian love and to go forth and help everyone BECOME believers? Or have you also figured out who is going to become a believer and who isn't and when and how all that happens? The point your are insanely arguing is moot - we do not know who will or will not be saved just by looking at them - only God knows that. We have to assume He wants everyone to be saved.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 You said, "we do not know who will or will not be saved just by looking at them - only God knows that" ...and I say DUH! That is why we are commanded to preach the Gospel everywhere, because God's children, the elect, are scattered abroad(John 11:52). His word will not return void(Isa 55:11).
Now, If God desires all men to be saved, then why did Jesus ONLY pray for those God gives him in John 17:9? Why were the Gentiles left out the covenant for 4000 years?
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 why ?
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@theheat151 With bible verses you can debunk or prove anything you want,
lizazoon 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 - i agree with you because 1 Tim 2 v4 says clearly that God our Savior DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 And if God really desires all men to be saved, as you imply, then why doesn't he save them? Does he not declare the end from the beginning according to his pleasure?
Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do ALL my pleasure"
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 - brother i do not know why exactly because we cannot know the mind of God. His ways are so far above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. I only know that the bible clearly says that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. God allows evil, because men have free will and some men love evil and so they do evil. It wouldn't make sense to force people to do good like they were puppets. God is a gentleman - He doesn't force Himself on us.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 It's not just a desire. 1st Timothy 2:4 clearly says God "*WILL HAVE* all men to be saved". That is something that will come to pass. Isaiah 46:10 says that God does everything according to his pleasure. So if God really desires all men to be saved, then he will. But we know that isn't the truth.
And who says that we are robots? The Scriptures are clear that God is the potter and man is the clay. Therefore, the Potter can do anything eh wants the lump of clay.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151 There is God's perfect will and God's permitting will. God's perfect will is that all men be saved, but unlike an inanimate clay pot God has made man in His image with free will - we must conform our will to His will if we want to be in heaven. We have the power to choose evil, but there is no evil in heaven so we land in hell if we don't repent. Maybe an analogy would be a human father who loves his son, but if his son commits a crime agrees with the justice of him going to jail.
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105
Very good urbanh. I really don't understand why some people try to claim that God only loves them and their small little group of lucky people. It's a blasphemy to beat all blasphemies, and I pray for them because God hates that kind of behavior.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 Amen - and thanks - i agree we must pray for those in error - prayer is key. God willing and with His grace we dispel ignorance and error with the truth. imagine how easy it is to fall into despair if you are wondering something as basic as whether or not God loves you or whether or not He wants you to be with Him in heaven? of course He does! not to be rude or arrogant but let's face it that is really Christianity 101. They don't call it the Good News for nothing! :-)
urbanh196398105 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 Do you have any Scripture supporting what you believe? You said, "so we land in hell if we don't repent". So, I ask you, where does repentance come from?
You also said, "God's perfect will is that all men be saved". Well, I ask for this verse. Jesus was clear when he said that God's will is "that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."(John 6:39).
So, I ask for Scripture please!
theheat151 1 year ago
@urbanh196398105 You also said, "God has made man in His image with free will". Well, why not also omnipresent or omniscience? Do you even know that God's free-will is limited? He can't sin! It's against his nature, just like it's against man's nature to call or seek God as Scripture tells us(Isaiah 64:7, Romans 3:10-12).
If your will is truly autonomous, can you stop sinning?.
theheat151 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 Amen man.
drybomber5 1 year ago
@callingheyzeus
Your analogy fails. God is supposedly the creator of ALL. In your analogy, Bill Gates doesn't create the viruses. If he did, then yes he would be the one to blame. I think a better analogy is the tobacco companies that make the shit that kills you, then sell you the gum to cure you. They're assholes.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
Very good :D !!
StaIIIone 1 year ago
good!
kindredinspirit 1 year ago
Great job, Daniel. Btw, innately men recognize (and we've built it into all our business law code) the justice obligation that a saleable manufactured widget must perform to spec according to the manufacturer's intended purpose. And yet, we humans somehow believe we're independent and without obligation to our Creator. [Go figure.] But it doesn't change a thing -- Jesus IS Lord. And we owe Him EVERYTHING. Moreover, praise be to God -- He's given us His everything.
indychristian 1 year ago
AWESOMENESS!!!
Domodeath 1 year ago
F.A.N.T.A.S.T.I.C.!.
The Lord bless you, TTG
mtcanz 1 year ago
Your shirt is unbiblical. Scriptures are quite clear that NONE call upon God, and NONE seek him. So, how is it "simple", again?
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151,
It doesn't say "easy," it is says "simple." Big difference between "easy" and "simple."
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis I never used the word "easy", I used "simple" like the shirt says. With that being said, the Scriptures are clear that salvation is not that simple, since NONE call upon and NONE seek him. If what the Scriptures say is true, then how is it "simple"?
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151
How is "repent and believe" not simple? Simple means easily understood, uncomplicated, or straightforward. Salvation is most assuredly a simple plan. I think you're confusing simple/complicated with easy/hard. Something can be very simple, yet not be easy. The life and walk of a believer is not easy, but it is simple. Trust Jesus.
mtcanz 1 year ago
@mtcanz And where does repentance and belief come from? From man, or from God as Scripture clearly teaches us.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151
What does your question have to do with the point of simplicity vs ease? It now appears you really weren't concerned for that point, but looking for a way to work in your favorite pet doctrinal debate.
God is the source of all that is good. This, too, is a simple concept.
mtcanz 1 year ago
@mtcanz The point is, if repentance and faith both come from God as Scripture points out many times, then salvation isn't "simple" as the shirt implies.
Matthew 19 -
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151
I'm sorry, but you "simply" do not understand the meaning of the word, "simple". You are trying to make it something that it's not, and again I suspect it's because you are more interested in a particular debate of another topic.
Do you understand "complexity" and "simplicity" can co-exist? What simplicity cannot share the stage with is "confusion" or "complication". But a simple idea can grow in complexity without ever violating its simplicity.
mtcanz 1 year ago
@mtcanz I'm sorry, but your not understanding my point. If both faith and repentance come from God, as Scriptures tells us, then salvation is not "simple" as the shirt implies. And no, I am not looking for a debate. All I did was make a statement about the shirt. You and Nomos, on the otherhand, were the ones who replied to me.
theheat151 1 year ago
@theheat151
That faith and repentance come from God make it all the MORE simple - not less. We cannot corrupt nor change that which comes from Him, because its source is more sure than if it originated with us.
His yoke is easy, and His burden light.
Shalom
mtcanz 1 year ago
@mtcanz Great answer!!! :)))
hopecharstar 1 year ago
@theheat151,
What we must do to be saved is simple because it is not complicated. It is not a complex, confusing, burdensome list of grievous commands. It's one thing: repentance and faith. Trust. Reposing oneself in the person and work of Christ. That is an incredibly simple thing (REGARDLESS OF WHETHER ANYONE ACTUALLY DOES IT OR NOT). The fact that it is simple is one of the reasons why everyone is so guilty for not doing it (you see that don't you?).
NomosCharis 1 year ago
@NomosCharis And where does repentance and faith come from? It surely cannot come from man since we are told that NONE call upon God and NONE seek him.
theheat151 1 year ago
@NomosCharis It's not simple. God gave us feelings. i dont like God because of Gods tools.
olanordmann49 1 year ago
...otherwise known as animalistic, natural, human behaviour!
Webofscience 1 year ago
lol, cute shirt, but... Salvation is so 'hard' that only God can do it! :) (Mark 10:23-27)
EnderGate 1 year ago 16
@EnderGate Amen
SaintMichael82 1 year ago
@EnderGate Amen!
theheat151 1 year ago
a malfunction he will punish us for? threatening us with eternal torture for a defect you admit he created makes your god even more of a hypocrite, bully, and incompetent being then i could ever imagine any human portraying. even hitlers punishment on the jews was, at the very least, finite.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
I didn't realize "free-will" was a defect?
God gives us free will. We trample Him with free-will choices. He then gives us the way through the consequences of the trampling -- at great cost and suffering to Himself (Let me know when I get to the unfair, meanie part).
The only ones judged will be those who have rejected the escape, having only themselves to blame.
mtcanz 1 year ago
@mtcanz
"I didn't realize "free-will" was a defect?"
He said it, not me.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism "He said it, not me."
No, he didn't say free-will was the defect. He said sin was the defect, which resulted from the misapplication of the free-will.
Hope that clears it up for you.
Shalom
mtcanz 1 year ago
@riseofatheism Funny how every sekt seems to claims to be the truly blessed or saved.
These "newborn christians"..,lol.
They will look another christian / catholic straight in the eye and tell him or her there are going to hell "because you aren't newborne, you still carry the original sin"
But NO, they don't think they are better then you, they are just saying you will burn forever if you don't become a newborn christian.
I'm glad i don't need all of these stories to keep me in line...
Traxx01 1 year ago
@riseofatheism Did God the Lord force you to lie,steal, disobey authority in your life? Or did you choose that yourself? So who's to blame here, that's what is wrong here in America today. People putting the blame on someone else instead being humble to admit they messed up. Like when a lady goes to starbucks and spills her coffee and sues them cause it's hot. Or people sueing McDonalds for putting toy's in the kids meal, or for being fat. Come get real and think first. Use your brain.
Shoots1978 1 year ago
@Shoots1978
I could go on for hours on free will vs. omniscience. But let me make it simple for time's sake. If god created me with a nature to disobey, and I disobey, should he really be surprised? I mean he's omniscient, he should know that I'm going to fuck up. If he does know, and he knows that I will be condemned to hell for it then he's a dick. So far no analogy can own up to god giving us free will, creating and allowing evil, and being omniscient. Sorry but it's still his fault.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism Wouldn't you rather have the free will which includes something as simple as deciding what to wear tomorrow or something as serious as to rob a bank? It's all considered free will, what you do with that free will is up to you. But we ALL have to answer to a higher authority if we use our free will in a bad way. The higher authority will not force us to do the right thing, we have to truly deep down want to do the right thing.
hopecharstar 1 year ago
@hopecharstar cont.2 - Sure you rob a bank and get caught and will be put in prison. Your free will then is limited. But you still have it and what will you ultimately choose to do with it, rob another bank when you get out or fight that free will to do what is right and good?
hopecharstar 1 year ago
@hopecharstar cont.3 - Having a free will shows a persons character. God had to give us a free will, if He hadn’t we wouldn’t have the choice to follow Him or not, and that would be like Him forcing us to Love Him and that wouldn’t be True Love now would it?
hopecharstar 1 year ago
@hopecharstar cont.4 - Look at this scenario of let’s say not having a free will. We have an abusive husband with his wife backed into a wall with his fist raised ready to hit yelling, “TELL ME YOU LOVE ME!.” Out of fear she will probably say, “I love you”. But ultimately do you think she meant it? This is where people who don’t believe blame God for the bad things, but don’t understand that the only other option to not having a choice would be to be forced.
hopecharstar 1 year ago
@hopecharstar cont.5 -
Now THAT my friend would be a controlling, unloving God. :)
hopecharstar 1 year ago
@Shoots1978
In other words, god supposedly knows, even before he creates us, and this is all in Christian doctrine, where my soul is destined after I die. If I am DESTINED for hell, how on earth can I change that. If I do change that, then I wasn't destined for hell and god didn't know, and therefore is not omniscient. If I do go to hell as preordained, then god is an asshole for creating me and letting it happen knowing in advanced what was going to happen.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
God's omniscience does not mean He determines our actions. Our actions are freely made, and God's love means allowing us to have what we want, even if that means eternal separation from Him (and that means hell, since all good comes from God).
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
It's clear that many people can't seem to grasp the very simple concept. If god already knows what I'm going to do and where I'm destined to go after I die, and there is absolutely nothing that can change that, (because if it changes, then he didn't really know did he?) then god, if he had any sense at all, wouldn't create me knowing I'd be tortured forever. I mean if he really loved me.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
You are ignoring the most central component here: YOU. You're taking no credit for your own actions and blaming God for what YOU do. This is horrible, evil and foolish. God may know all things, but giving YOU the FREEDOM to choose means NOT intervening to prevent you from making your own choice. You have the choice: follow God, or hate him and blame him for your own evil. If God didn't allow people to choose to hate Him, then all He would have is a bunch of mindless slaves.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
"You're taking no credit for your own actions and blaming God for what YOU do."
If god created me, and everything about me, then he also created my sinful nature. To deny that is ignorant. If god created everything, he created evil. If god created everything, he created the desire to do bad things. If god created everything he created the urge to disobey. How on earth is that my fault? It's one thing to give something free will, and another to give something preordained desires.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
God did not create evil. God created free beings, and some of those beings chose evil. God's love for us means allowing us freedom to choose rather than making us automatons. What about this can't you understand?
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
Those being choose evil because they have an original desire to do evil. That desire HAS to have an original source. That source, by your definition, must be god. Sorry, but you can't wrestle your way out of it.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
Incorrect. The source of our desire to do evil is what Christians call our "sinful nature", which was inherited from Adam and Eve, the father and mother of our species, both of whom freely chose evil over good and brought down on all of us this curse. We are all still individually free to choose good over evil through faith, and though we may be sinners while on this Earth, God promises to free us from that sinful nature in the next life if we choose Him.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
"brought down on all of us this curse. "
And I find that to be morally reprehensible to. Why would an all loving god let the actions of 2 people, (which I don't even think their actions qualify as evil as just explained), determine the fate of every generation? Why do we all have to be endowed with this sinful nature? Why can't we start in the garden and not have the sinful nature? How can you possibly view any of this as a moral system?
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
You ask questions like an obstinate child. We don't need to know the specific answers to why God does everything He does in exactly the way He does it- the answer would be over our heads anyway at this point; we know what we need to know to choose good instead of evil, and I'll pray you'll turn from the evil you're apparently in the midst of and seek God's love.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85 Well said. Praise Jesus!
Soul4JC 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
If a being god created chooses to do good, do you credit that to god?
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
Because we have the freedom to choose, God credits us with the good we do in our lives- we don't credit ourselves mind you- but really we are only following the example of good from the ultimate source of all goodness- God. It's foolish egoism to credit yourself for goodness rather than the creator and sustainer of all that is good.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
If you can credit god with you acting goo, then it follows that you can credit god with acting bad. If you say no, you're special pleading. End of story.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
It's one thing to create a robot with no desires and no urges. But we are all born with the urge and desire to do certain things. Those desires and urges came from where? If not god, then where? Did they create themselves? Did the devil do it? If your answer is the devil, then I can't help but ask why god doesn't get rid of him?
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
If God doesn't create you, He doesn't love you, for you cannot love what never existed. The only way love truly exists is with the choice to love or not to love - the choice to do good or evil. The bottom line is, the accountability is entirely with you and He has STILL made the way for you in spite of your choices. The only choice He will not overcome for you is the one that outright rejects His offer to you. And you want to blame Him for that one?
illogical.. irrational
mtcanz 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
Our actions may not be determined by god, (that's a separate discussion), but our actions ARE known in advanced, before he even creates us. And if hes really as all knowing as you say, even before there was a universe. Before genesis 1:1. And if he knows I will be sent to hell eternally then he's a dick for letting me exist anyway knowing that's the outcome. At least Terminator tried to change what he knew was the outcome.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@Shoots1978
So you get real and think. Apparently you haven't even thought through your own faith to get past these logical syllogisms.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
@riseofatheism
The defect is not free will, it's the "sin nature" inherited from our ultimate father and mother, the first people, Adam and Eve, who were cursed by God for freely choosing evil over good.
Kanbei85 1 year ago
@Kanbei85
They ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That means that prior to eating of the fruit of that tree, there's no possible way they could have known that it was evil. Even if god says don't do it, they have no knowledge of what is good and evil, otherwise there would be no reason for the tree. The whole story is an exercise in stupidity.
riseofatheism 1 year ago
LOL NOW MAYBE SOME FOLKS WILL GET THE IDEA!
TECHNICALLY SPEAKING!! =]
7KEDDY7 1 year ago
Awesome.
gneisenau321 1 year ago