You are crazy. There isn't "one hypothetical person". There are millions of them, and they aren't hypothetical. They have names and addresses. It's farcical. Bill Gates is a real greedy person.
Saying "What we have now obviously isn't working" is nonsense. It produced the most privileged people on earth with the most information available to them ever. It isn't perfect, but it has a hell of a leg up on your fairy tail.
For those trusting humanity to create a better world: Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? If you can't trust your own motives, how can you trust Jacque Fresco's?
Those who wait for Christ will inherit the earth; others will not: Matthew 5:5: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
We cannot save the earth because of entropy, and entropy is God's punishment for revolting against His authority.
You speak my mind entirely. Nice to see someone using something they have been naturally born with....a brain :) love the video. Keep it up. We need to get this message out as far and wide as possible
After thinking it over for some time I have a thought. First of all I think this is a great idea. It's actually really beautiful. The idea of a free world unshackled by cost and lack is thrilling. But there's something to be said about persistence and toil and hardship. Without persecution would we know freedom? Without toil and hardship would we know faith and love? I think there's a special quality in these things. An anti-beauty of balance. I believe everything worth shouldn't be easy or free
1."everything worth shouldn't be easy or free","only with HARD work u can get something","suffering brings growth",...->all of this repeting "truth" are old PROGRAMS which feed us from childhood!!!Now think about few things:if u looking at flowers and smell them, then u have to also look and smell excrement,to value beauty of the flowers? NO! If u eat juicy orange,then u have to eat stinking,rotten fish first to value full taste of fruit? NO!
2.You know why?Because your soul,spirit,REAL YOU (however you want to call it) know exactly what harmony is,what happiness is,what life is.Child is happy with no comparisons and no need to look at ugly world to enjoy the beauty of being.Then,when is adult and loses those naturally given goods,simply mises them.Something inside screeming,that should be different in real world,which was created for all of us on the Earth.
3.What you belive now,is your mind only,but listen to your inner voice,then you will hear something completely different.Jesus,Budda,... many great people said that is enough everything for enybody and even more.So there is no reason to suffer and fight for something,what is our natural right.I think there is enough evidence and suffering, to prove how valuable things mankind has lost.We ALREADY KNOW value of peace,love and happiness.
4.I knew value of Love before I lost it.Do you think I value love more now? No, I'm suffer now only,because inside of me I KNEW and I KNOW what love is and how valuable is.
Do you need more wars and poverty to understand and feel that we don't need it?
I don't need that,children don't need that, animals don't need that, to feel the value...
I am only tired of paying and hard gaining the simple things in life.
Make no mistake here I admirre your work---human nature is there and you are dealing with it---People do not like change---Would you agree to that even if it is for their own good or good of posterity--the answer you gave is worthless---tell her how a future society would deal with this type problem--not that it wont happen or that this system needs to change---people cannot visulize that---if change is going to happen people need to be able to visualize it--thats why u r doing this do it better
I like changes! I like new, fresh ideas, change is natural and everything aroud is changing every day, my body,my thoughts,my inspirations.It's evolution and I like it and I know I'm not only one.
In terms of the idea of RBE. What has been demonstrable demonstrated to show that things like agriculture, material production, distribution, etc can be done with minimal to no human labor. For instance, has it been demonstrated that machines can plant, pick, and distribute fruit from a single fruit tree with minimal to no human labor?
Why do you think we need to eliminate security for The Venus Project to work? I'm a computer programmer. I've got some great ideas for security that could make it much better than what we have now for people, overall.
And what about relationships? What, dudes won't be dudes & chicks won't be chicks? Think about it, I see murder & violence right off jump street. Not even getting into greed of material things. Don't males often compete for female mates? What happens to the guy that goes bonkers walking in on his girl fucking some other dude & smashes them both into pulp? Does he get punished? Who is in charge here? HELLO? anybody? WON"T WORK! sorry....try again.
@radfahtit Please review my introduction video where I cover the Challenge rules, such as reading the FAQ. This question is answered there, so please start there and come back if you have a question/comment regarding the answer. This is to prevent rehashing TVP 101 over & again with noobs, which I can see that you are, since you seem to think that you are the first person to ask this question, and that Jacque Fresco, a 95 yr old social scientist, hasn't thought of that. "Sorry... try again."
Right, you can go ahead with this venus city however it will only be after totally anarchy and complete unrest and revolt. So all that survive the upheaval will have to rebuild. ok, then people get together and lets do it. Who is gonna be in charge here. See where i am going here? I am sorry but history is likley to repeat.
@radfahtit Again, challenge rules. There are far too many people with their "opinion" for me to waste my time with every single one of them so I need facts, not "history is 'likely' to repeat," and "it can only be built after mass chaos." Says who? An example of a 'fact' would be: The Gaviotans in Colombia, S. America use sustainable farming methods, have free food, free housing, and free education, and as a result have had no weapons, prisons, police, or gov't leader for over 30 years.
The desire for "fame and wealth" is a product of one's environment during early developmental ages. To say that you are a student of science then claiming that something like human behavior can't be changed is a contradiction of logic.
If this is true, how do societies exist that show no greed or malice toward one another. "Size of the group" you may say, but this, too, is nothing but a cop out.
How is the venus project different than any socialist movement throughout history? If you have to post all these vids to convince people that the answer to one form of tyrany is another form of tyrany, good luck to you. I'll never trust any person or group with the entire world's resources. BAD IDEA
@WTFukinshit If you understand open science, post-scarcity, and the concept of a global Type 1 civilization on the Kardashev scale, than the difference is blatantly obvious. If you don't, then I honestly doubt you would understand my answer to your question. So first let me know if you are familiar w/those, and how you find them similar to Socialism; then we can proceed. The videos are not to "convice" anyone of anything, but to try and enhance the discussion, sans uneducated assumptions/labels.
@TVPchallenge Okay, so I had to read up on the terms you put forth. We don't live in a type-1 civilization. When we get there, we'll talk. I think cold fusion is the answer we're all looking for. An achievement like sustained reliable cold fusion would truly change the way we operate as a society. But I still won't and can't trust people with all the world's resources...that is the basis of socialism and the end of private property.
@WTFukinshit (1/2) "When we get there, we'll talk." We're going to need to talk in order to get there, so that doesn't make any sense at all. Good luck getting there while everyone stays quiet and accepts the status quo. As far as "trusting" people with the world's resources, this is why I asked if you understood Open Science (keyword: open). The point is that it nullifies the ability and, more importantly, the incentive for corruption. Finding sustainable ways to provide the world's people w/>>
(2/2) access to resources is not remotely the same thing as a group of people or government having exclusive control over resources - at all. Fearing the RBE for this reason is like avoiding the beach bc you "still won't and can't trust people with all that sand." In a situation of open-source information & technology we can achieve a state of abundance that means not "the end of private property," but the end of any logical reason for exclusive access. In other words, it becomes obsolete.
(And for the record, none of the these things are something you can just "read up" on in a few minutes (esp. all 3 of them) and hence your, still, fallacious comparison to Socialism, or fear of "trusting people" with the world's resources, but I'd recommend checking out adciv*org.)
@TVPchallenge I get "open science" but as a student of science, I also understand human greed. If I stumbled upon the cure for cancer or cold fusion tomorrow, I'd want fame and wealth as a result. Maybe that seems petty or selfish, but it's true. It's probably true for you too, if you're honest with yourself. I'd love for us all to live in a perfect society with wonderous abundance, but humans love to be bigger than their neighbor...perfect example, christmas light competitions
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THIS, TRY THIS THOUGH THE GAME IS RIGGED AND THIS WHAT WE HAVE ALL BEEN BORN INTO AT THIS TIME OF THE WORLD. AND THE ONLY WAY TO WIN THE GAME. IS TO NOT PLAY THE GAME. YOU ALSO SOUND TO MUCH LIKE A RECORDING FROM PJ OR JF NOT THAT IS A BAD THING JUST NOTICEING. THE ARGUMENT YOU MAKE ON PEOPLE BEING LAZY OR CREATIVE NEEDS TO BE MADE BETTER I HAVE LANGUAGE YOU CAN USE, THAT MAY PREFER, I AM IN SAN JOSE, CA RISEINGSTARDUST@GMAIL.COM I HOPE TO CHAT WITH YOU. THANK YOU
From everything I've been watching and reading about RBE/Zeitgeist/Venus subject, I'm still at a loss at what will be done to corrosive elements SPECIFICALLY during the transitional years (and the cultural and societal changes for RBE to work would take decades), will they be detained or denied products/resources etc...?
Wow, this video alone can convince every single human being... Great job. I was already on your side but, i didn't think about some of the stuff you mentioned, very good.
I'm a Biological Sociopath, the only moral compass I have is a developed interest in philosophy and ethics. I lack the ability to feel pity, emotional empathy, guilt, remorse ect, these emotional short cuts simply do not exist in me and must be compensated for at a philosophical level. That's why I'm a socialist and not a communist, socialist works with a flawed humanity, communism expects too much
Would the Venus project be compatible with my sociopathy?
@clonjey Then it sounds great. Basic question though, how do you motivate labor, especially for unpleasant but necessary jobs that can't, for whatever reason, be done by machines?
@Laughingblades Such as what? What can't machines do? And if there are actual unpleasant jobs that machines cannot do, there are always people in a community based environment who understand the need for this work to be done. The very idea of this ideal society is being constructed by people who have no hope to gain anything except a better, more efficient world. Now factor in a society of people who have been influenced (or argueably brainwashed) to think in exactly the same way.
@clonjey The question isn't "Will machines ever be able to" the question is "who will fill that role until machines are able to, and how will those who fill such roles be motivated". The complete mechanization of all labor would have to have a transitional period in which human labor still filled a variety of roles, and for some jobs human labor may simply be best suited until we develop machines with a human level reasoning capacity at which point the machines may not want to do it.
@Laughingblades lol, I doubt machines will ever develope such a human emotion; they will always be constructed the way we want them to be. As for that transitional period, as I have already explained, the revolutionary people will have no problem doing these tasks (if they exist). The goal is to create a society that carries these ideals before actually creating the society.
@Laughingblades What else would cause them to refuse to do so but Pride, Laziness, or some other FEELING that would influence their reasoning? To tell you the truth I entertained the question, but truthfully the likelihood of machines reaching a reasoning capacity that exceeds doing the tasks human beings tell them to is not possible at all.
@clonjey So are you assuming that the only thing that can motivate an intelligent thinking being to act is emotion?
I mean first there's no guarantee that a machine is going to be better suited for every task, second there's no way we're just going to suddenly have every machine needed for every task there would have to be a transitional period, and third, if a task requires a machine to be given human level intelligence why just assume that without emotion there would be no autonomy?
@Laughingblades No, the opposite: With intelligence comes emotion; it's inevitable. Even primates- no even dogs have emotions.
First of all, I disagree: I think a machine CAN be better suited for ANY task we design it for. Second, you're right, there would have to be a transitional period (so what?), and third, what makes you think machines have to have human level intelligence to do tasks? Computers do AMAZING things today, but I don't see any that can form a rational thought.
@clonjey How are you defining emotion? Primates and dogs have emotions because they have the same chemical basis for experiencing feelings that we do.
First I never said machines couldn't be better suited, but that they may not always be. Second so we need a way to motivate labor to do exceedingly mundane and unpleasant tasks simply expecting them to put their hands up to maintain society is naive. Third, I'm simply saying that some tasks may require human level intelligence.
@Laughingblades I.e intelligence lol. A chemical basis for the capacity of experiencing feelings can only be interpretted with intelligence. The original point: machines will never refuse work. Even ants, who have little to no intelligence work tirelessly because they're genetically programmed to do so.
First, we'll cross the "machines may not always be better suited" bridge when we get there. Second it's not a naive expectation if it's a societal norm. There are cars that park themselves
@clonjey Yeah, but not every task is as clean and mechanical as parking a car, some tasks require the ability to react to unexpected circumstances in an intelligent manner, what happens when a machine is faced with a problem that goes outside it's programming? If it has the intelligence to address such problems, we should not underestimate the potential of that intelligence to surprise us and expect obedient drones. It would be very arrogant to presume such mastery over an intelligent creation.
@Laughingblades That's a good point. No doubt there will be some unexpected, uncalculable problems. And maybe machines really could evolve to that type of intelligence. We'd have to try to find out first.
@clonjey I may have a special interest in this because I'm a biological sociopath removed from many of the normal emotions that people experience but still capable of functioning in some sense ethically in society. Behaviorist definitions being pushed by corporate psychologists in America can make that confusing, but they diagnose by the behavioral symptoms of the disorder.
But I'm biologically incapable of normal love or empathy, guilt, shame, pity, ect but find that I find I don't need them.
I think that when we do develop intelligent machines we will be forced to radically re-examine and redefine personhood, we probably already should since a person's identity can be drastically altered and even erased through prolonged sensory deprivation and psychological conditioning or torture.
@Laughingblades I doubt it. Those intelligent machines, even if they become so intelligent that they render the human race obsolete, will still be just that- machines. Programmed to coldly do what we tell them; unwavering and void of feeling. And we'll always see them as such. How about creating a society where sensory deprivation and psychological conditioning will not occur? lol
@clonjey Humans are just biological machines, and if you expect an intelligent being to simply coldly and unwaveringly follow it's programming indefinitely then I think that's pretty arrogant, you should never underestimate the capacity of that which possesses intelligence to surprise you.
@Laughingblades I would agree with you if it weren't for 1 factor difference between biological machines and artificial ones: Artificial intelligence, programmed by human beings do not have a sense of will & can't learn it. They actually have no sense at all. In fact, artificial intelligence shouldn't have the word "intelligence" in it at all since the definition is the capacity to learn; or reason. Verily, machines only learn what we teach them & have no capability of learning it themselves.
@clonjey Except artificial intelligence may not be enough for some tasks, artificial intelligence leads to machines not being able to function outside their programming, there will always be tasks humans are much better suited for if machines can't learn and adapt to preform their tasks the way humans can. Artificial intelligence is just fake intelligence, complex behavior based on programming to mimic intelligence.
Then again human intelligence is emergent off of basic biological programs.
@Laughingblades So are you agreeing with me that machines will never gain the capability to decide to refuse to work? Or are you pointing out that this is why we could never rely on machines in a society like this?
@clonjey I'm not exactly agreeing. If they are ever made truly intelligent they may be able to refuse work, I only agree insofar as they are not made truly intelligent or can not develop an emergent intelligence as an unexpected side effect of their programming.
And if they are not made truly intelligent then there will always be tasks for which humans are better suited. Machines are great for doing manual labor and operating within defined parameters but they are easy to fool.
My question to all viewers who read this and feel the need or lust to respond: Why have we not seen a utopia yet? Prove me wrong; support me - I always enjoy a good debate, and I look forward to any/all responses! Just note that however great an idea may be, it is only as mortal as humanity will allow it.
This "Bad Egg" theory is actually very true. Not everyone is for the same ideas because it may not benefit them. Ideals such as this "Venus Project" are wonderful! I would love to see the next generation prosper happily. However people seem to forget another prospect of the psychology of the masses: we thrive on conflict. How do you unite people? Give them all a common antagonist to work against or compete with. Ugly enough, this "conflict" is usually in the form of war.
@zoomizoomzoomzam (1/2) I didn't claim it was "untrue," I'm simply saying that it's a stupid reason not to at least *improve* the socio-economic system we're living in as much as possible. It's not about everyone being "for the same ideas." Everyone needs food, water, clean air, shelter, clothing, socialization, etc. so the only way those things "may not benefit" someone is if they want to be unhealthy, psychotic, both, or dead. Do you have any studies/sources showing that we thrive on conflict?
(2/2) The studies I've seen on human nature and human behavior have shown the opposite, that we thrive on empathy, belonging, compassion, etc. and that conflict has a very adverse affect on our psychology and development. The Gaviotans in Colombia S. America use sustainable farming methods, have free food, free shelter, and free education, and haven't had weapons, police, prisons, or a gov't leader for over 30 years. They're thriving alright, and it isn't from conflict.
@MrYellowmattercustar Yes, I have to agree the YT commenting system sux ballz. =/ lol Thank you for the discussion, and let me know if you have any questions! (Also, I organized the TVP FAQ by subject/category, and provided links to various sources, if you find it useful: tvpchallenge*blogspot*com/2010/06/frequently-asked-frequently-asked*html)
(2/2) "it calls for no army or police force" - It doesn't "call for" this; it results in this. The Gaviotans in Colombia S. America use sustainable farming methods, and have free food, free housing, and free education. They've had no weapons, prisons, police, or governmental leader for over 30 years. All TVP "calls for" is the technical application of solutions, the scientific method applied socially. The results (peace, abundance, sustainability, healthy environment, etc.) happen on their own.
(3/3) "If people like me own those resources[...]"
lol - I love this one. Don't flatter yourself. I guarantee you that you don't have any resources or land that we would need to build multi-billion dollar sustainable cities. But thank you for [not] offering. More importantly, we've already addressed this nonsense (repeatedly) here: watch?v=7K12CPvc8wU, and here: watch?v=0j4lOV5l3Ac. What part of it's 100% voluntary and not *everyone* has to participate, is so difficult?
@MrYellowmattercustar (1/2) "The venus project is just a high tech version of communism"
This gross oversimplification and miscategorization really shows that you don't actually understand what the RBE is, and what TVP is proposing. By centralizing certain inherently common aspects of society's infrastructure, i.e. food, water, transportation, etc. we can reduce redundancy & waste, thus enabling abundance. Communism presupposes the elimination of "private property" through * CONTROL >>
(2/2) >> NOT through outgrowing the need for it, and rendering it obsolete, and thus Communism still accepts a state of scarcity for even the most basic human needs. This is not remotely the same as people *voluntarily choosing* that they no longer want or need their private property bc they unresitricted access to everything anyway. The benefits of this method are explained clearly here: watch?v=PvoJ2Js5294. Also see adciv*org.
@MrYellowmattercustar Ok, I will read information about the US constitution and get back at ya. But I would like to know what are the advantages you like of the Constitution. Please do explain as I am not well informed. Maybe I will change my mind.
@MrYellowmattercustar and besides the US Constitution DOESN'T WORK! It's been around since 1787. I think after trying for 224 years, it's time for a change, dont you think?
@MrYellowmattercustar and who made this US constitution? The same ones who also made the banks and profit system? The free enterprise system? that makes products not for the betterment of human beings but for the profit of money?? What constitution??
1 We are trained in the monetary system to have opinions. It comes down to this. If you critizes, be specific on WHAT you critize. And than tell us how you would do it differently. If you have a better plan, than people will follow. If not.. than there's no point to critizes! We all want no war, no corruption, no povety, hungry people and crime. Humans have shown that they cannot civilized when it comes to profit. That's why creating a Venus culture we can get rid of of profit based structure.
2 Our world Today is build of oil, carbon resources, from houses to clothing, to usage of petrol for cars. By using clean resources like the Sun, wind, water and making that accesble for all human being we will be able to live in a cleaner enviroment and safe the Earth climate. All humans should agree to this. Everyone wants a house that is for instance fire proof, and build with the best material. Everyone wants to use transportation that reaches their destination quickly.
3. Everyone wants to have good nutrition and clean water. Everyone wants great healthcare and good doctors and hospitals for FREE. Everyone should want free education. The point is as long as our basic needs are controlled. Like food, water, housing, electricity, we will not be free. But with our technology Today, we can already enhance all of the renewable resources and control them indepently We the people have to get control of our basic needs in life.
4/ Differences between for instance religion can be bridge by looking at the similarities and the basic needs of life, if they agree to this, they should be able to want to work towards it, and if not in the Venus project they will be treated, not put in jail or put on deathrow. But treated with education. No violence. If you don't want all the things I have mentioned here, which the Venus project advocates, than you are not ready for change.
@sexyslim1982 You are automatically assuming that most people are suited towards education. If you take the time to look around you, you'll realize that most are not.
@catalystleader I didn't assume automatically, that is also a plan of approach for the Venus Project. And the project needs about 7000 people, technicians, scientist, and the access to the materials to build the first city. If that is achieved many will follow. So building the first city is essential for the transition. But I'm afraid the monetary system has to completely fail, than people who believe in the project and are educated about it, will join.
@sexyslim1982 Yes many will follow, specifically just to be parasticial on the hardwork of others. Additionally I don't know how a single city can achieve autarky and cut itself off from the monetary system.
@catalystleader I think when you see that something works, people will follow? I hope. It wouldn't make sense for people not too. I mean you don't have to work, You have the best quality house, best car, control over your resources such as light and free food etc. And people in the monetary would stay in the monetary system because? they like money? If they want to stay here, they can stay there. I won't be joining them lol
@sexyslim1982 What about law and order. You need people to do these jobs. what incentive is there to do them if nobdy else has to work. What about race, culture, and the roots that come from them and the propensity of individuals to identify with these roots? I'm not defending capitalism here, but a civilization that has no incentive to be innovative and intelligent will become a dead civilization.
@catalystleader - Indeed. This is the contradiction of socialism, the contradiction of humanity. As much as I enjoy leaving people behind to rot in their own filth as the next guy, capitalism dangles the possibility of success in front of people like bait, thus focusing negative energy into positive results. Kind of like war profiteering - Is it fun? I would hope not. Does it get food on the table efficiently? Yes. You can always MAKE people work at gunpoint, CONVINCING them to work is hard.
@zoomizoomzoomzam Capitalism can only get food on the table sufficiently only when it realizes that the economic system is the servant of the nation. Not the other way around.
Catalystleader - It has a tendency to work better if "the economic system is the servant of the nation", but how long does that work out? The longest period (without some sort of self serving foundation) of an economic system in service of the nation was of England's and America's that during WWII. It ended still. I have no doubt that within time, this utopia will be present. My only question is with all of our races compassion, grace, and intelligence, why has it not happened permanently?
@zoomizoomzoomzam It works out until cultural degradation sets in and people develop selfish values and attitudes and no longer have a belief in the nation. That's why I'd have Corporatism combined with Fascism. In regards to your last question it is because we have obliterated our national identity with post-modernist pop culture and mass immigration. That's why it hasn't happened yet.
@zoomizoomzoomzam , convincing people to work without payment is hard; convincing people to work with payment is easy. Should the VP do what is hard or easy?
@catalystleader - Well, Sexyslim1982 can always be the first to start a space colony; socialist ideals work much better in smaller communities. America COULD switch to self sufficiency because of our resource abundance, but it would throw the world into utter chaos. I am not sure we would have enough popcorn to watch another genocide. >:)
@sexyslim1982 , if the (debt based) monetary system fails, would you support people creating an asset based monetary system? The transition will take years, and people will be dying. The VP won't be able to provide for everyone on day 1 after the crash.
I wish I knew as close to a solid number of people who if they are not at least intrigued of the ideas expressed in VP\TZM. I honestly believe it is a large # and getting larger maybe not even 5% of the population but even 5% is a good start. I have been watching many TZM\VP videos to gain a scope of the interest in these ideas. Based on your videos I can say you are a very open minded smart individual. Thnx for the video be well
@TheDarkFenix Interested in a Disney new world fantasy? Humans lack the capacity to create a successful society (Jeremiah 10:23). Not only is it not worth trying, it is an insult to the one who created us to try to make our own world instead being a part of His (Revelation 21:3,4; Revelation 4:11).
@Ant1Live And that, my friends, is a perfect example of how religion alienates people. "To create a successful society is not even worth trying", he just said that, look.
These people are looking forward to apocalypse.
An insult is someone having their thinking capability lowered so much, it's an insult, even better a disgrace to the human race. People like you holds humanity back, you're a sick individual, the reason you don't know this is cuz you've been indulged by institutons since birth.
@TheDarkFenix You sound like a conspiracy theorist, even a denialist. If you can't address someone who views the world differently without assigning a diagnosis- without poisoning the well, then it calls in to question who the really sick, alienated person is. Are all TVP advocates similar to you? The type of person who believes yourself above the fray and scorns anything that doesn't remind you of yourself? Well, now, I'm definitely not interested in a whole new world with you.
@Ant1Live If you believe humans lack the capacity to create a succesful society. Than what's the use of religion quote? I do believe that you believe in the 10 commandments. That means that Jesus believed that man could do it. Think about this. God is the creator of our universe and us. That means He created all of us, even the bad people. God had a divine plan, meaning praying won't help. It's His DIVINE PLAN and will not be changed. In the bible it also says, Thou shall creat Heaven on EARTH.
@TrollTheTrollTroller I see. Well, I unfortunately had to delete his last purely ad hominem comment and block him, but thanks for the warning. =/ And thanks for the kind words & support =)
This girl acts like people who are against the Venus Project, are therefore advocating every aspect of the current system. It's like the 911 truthers, you say you don't agree with a conspiracy, they assume that you have been brain washed by the media, or I couldn't accept that the government would lie to me (they lie all the time). People in cults (Truth Movement, Zeitgeist movement) just can't accept the fact that it's only their idea we are against, that doesn't mean we are for the current.
@theBartone9119 (1/2) "This girl acts like people who are against the Venus Project, are therefore advocating every aspect of the current system." Not at all; there are plenty of people who are "against the VP" who also criticize the current system, and propose monetary reform or free market anarchism. I just don't agree. It is a strawman to say that it's like "9/11 Truthers" bc I fundamentally disagree w/that false dichotomy as well ("You must believe 9/11 was an inside job or you're a sheep!")
(2/2) "... just can't accept the fact that it's only their idea we are against, that doesn't mean we are for the current." Another strawman. I never said "if you don't agree w/TVP, you MUST be for the current system!" As I said previously, it does not matter to me whether you are for the current system or NOT. The point is, whatever system you ARE for (which you have yet to explain), I want to know how it's supposedly better than the Resource Based Economy.
Some don't comit crimes just because they don't think it's worth it going to jail or dying for something they want. But i do agree the venus project can avoid 95% of those money/property crimes, and that's reason enough to go for it. But the other crimes, when they do happen, if they do, we'd be powerless, we'd have to fight back, and words wouldn't help, violence leading to more violence. In my opinion, that's the only thing TVP can't answer up until now. All other questions i solved with TVP.
Cont: I could do it with a gun, if i don't get access to one, i'd try it with a knife. Again, i was educated, born insedi the Venus city, this is the future and it's not my human nature or genetic. The environment inside the city (you) changed me, you were a scarce "resource".
Of course, this could also happen in the current system, and it does. The problem there, i won't stop at nothing, no police to protect you, so this would make it easier for me, i could even try it again with another girl..
@TheDarkFenix You should watch Jacque Fresco's lecture where he talks about how human beings would be taught how to relate to one another and better communicate w/each other in a social system like TVP, from early childhood. In the current system we are taught to be competitive and sore losers from day one, not how to communicate and bridge differences. More at: tvpchallenge*blogspot*com/search/label/FAQ - Read #7 and #15.
You say that if we have enough resources, we won't have the problems we do today. But some resource can't be made abundant. Example: Women.
Let's say i want to have you cause you're too hot. There's only one you, and no other girl would do for me. Even if you wanted me, you won't want everyone who would certainly want you, and this problems gets bigger the hotter one is. But i don't want to talk about "others" so if you don't want me, i decide to kill you. Continues....
@TheDarkFenix TVP is based on the Earth's abundant "natural resources" (i.e. water, land, metals, etc.) not "women." We don't have a solution for providing abundant women, but neither does the monetary system. (cont'd)
@TheDarkFenix You're definition of too hot is learned by the monetary based system corporations as the media and maybe religion. In Venus, your perception of beauty will change, because there will no longer be advertisements etc.Through education you will learn how to deal with ending an relationship. You will learn how do deal with anger and learn that if that person doesn't want you. You can leave and find someone else without violence.And if that does occur, you will be treated with education
@sexyslim1982 , mens attraction to women is genetically wired (or there would be no human species). Corporations can exascerbate that attraction for their own profit, but human genes will never be eliminated from human beings. Also, Christianity teaches us how to deal with anger and ending relationships already. The VP is not needed for that.
@sexyslim1982 , the VP talks frequently about "education" and how everyone will be "educated" (indoctrinated) to be cooperative; but with no police, armies, jails or authority, the VP cannot establish itself as the sole source of education in the society.
Of course, i know i wouldn't get greedy, but i can't say that for all humanity. Let's suppose we got the venus project up and running. Then suddenly, one single person gets access to a machine gun, decides to "go crazy" then what do we do?
For all i know the venus project won't ban anything, including guns, right?
I'm all for TVP and a RBE, but if that happens, what do we do?? I'm not saying our current system is better, far from it, i'm just curious.
What about irreconcilable differences between people. There are, right now, millions of people who believe (one example) homosexuals should be beheaded or slowly strangled to death, as it is divine justice. Created like that or born, those people exist. Not a couple of bad eggs, but millions upon millions of people.
How can you hope to enter a global system (for lack of a better word) with such people?
@Mokothar (1/2) People who believe that about homosexuals believe that because they were taught that by someone or something at some point or another. No one is BORN a bigot. Period. If enough of us voluntarily change our own culture and the way we treat each other, newer generations will follow suit. (Did you even watch the baboon segment?) No, we can't expect to change "millions" of people all at the same time, but we have to start somewhere; I addressed this in the 2nd video (Who's To Blame)!
(2/2) If you're thinking "who are we to change their beliefs," that's simple - we owe everything we have, and for most of us, our very lives, to science. Despite what people say, science CAN answer moral questions (see The Moral Landscape) and the RBE is about applying the scientific method for SOCIAL concern. Those who wish to try and uphold the ignorant views of 18th century philosophers like David Hume, should consider THEIR moral landscape: philosophicalmisadventures*com/?p=6. Also see FAQ65
To all the naysayers and pessimists: There are 2 options for the future of humanity. Radically changing our own behavior in the very near future and adopting a functional system that works for us and maintains balance with the planet or continue on our current path and go extinct while possibly destroying all other life on the planet with us. The planet does not need us to survive, we need the planet.
@NewPeaceOrder Couldn't another option be to not radically change anything, and gently evolve our knowledge and systems to become better and better? (like a workout program: improve a little every day).
I believe that the end of the earth has been predicted thousands of times in recorded history. People seem to like to do that. So far, it's not ever happened.
Like grandma used to say: "moderation in all things".
R U really an optimist?: "...destroying all other life on the planet with us."
@Warming4FunNprofit The problem is, We've also been gradually destroying the earth and driving thousands of other species to extinction. Along with poisoning the seas, large amounts of our fresh water, the air , and huge amounts of land. The "we haven't killed the planet yet" idea isn't very functional or beneficial to our species or the planet.
There is absolutely no reason why radical change can not happen in our lifetime.
Since there is an infinite number of things that could be produced, there is no way the RBE could produce them all (infinite production is not possible). This means that most things won't be available, except things that citizens make for themselves.
If I spent 5 years making a unique vehicle, there is no way that I would give it away. Besides, who would I give it to?
If it is unique, lots of people would want it, but I can't give it to everyone.
@Warming4FunNprofit I'm no expert on TVP, but I believe the point of the RBE system is to allow all humans free access to the necessary element of life. Energy, Water, Food, Housing. Once that demand is filled and everyone has a high standard of life people will have plenty of time, because of the allocation of mechanized labor. And the people can work together to create leisure items. If that's what the people want.
@24158010063574 Hi... as I read it, RBE is to provide "all goods and services", not just the basics. "a high standard of living for all", and yes, people are creative generally, so some people would create things, but with RBE, there is no property, so I suppose you could simply take/repurpose anything you come across, though that does sound chaotic.
@Warming4FunNprofit Hello... as I read it, RBE is to provide a high standard of living to all people. This doesn't mean everyone well have a 15,000 sq foot mansion, it's just not logistical. RBE is, well from what I've read of TVP, an environment, Not a government. And everything is owned by everyone. Although that does sound chaotic, it's much more efficient if organized properly. You should research the system more fluently.
@24158010063574 wait... a moment ago you were saying RBE "is to allow all humans free access to the necessary element of life", but now you are saying it is to provide a high standard of living? (Which is what I pointed out). What are you saying here... that you agree with what I said?
I'm not sure why I am supposed to be researching "more fluently", when I am correcting your misstatements about TVP/RBE. (ie, what RBE is supposed to provide). Pot-> Kettle -> Black.
I'm confused. "what we're doing now... isn't working, in case you haven't noticed."
? what ?
I live in the richest society ever known! I experience medical miracles on a regular basis! I have loads of leisure time, endless entertainment, access to almost every ounce of information known to man, so much food that I fight to keep the weight off! I can fly to almost anywhere on the planet, and my credit cards are accepted without question.
What we're doing now isn't working???? I don't get it.
@Warming4FunNprofit That's only you. There are millions if not closer to a billion people on the planet that can't afford to eat or even have access to water. There are people who will never see a school, or a hosipital, And that's wrong. We need a world were all people have the same chances to live a good life, not just the top 2%.
@24158010063574 How come there are always a billion starving people with no access to water, wouldn't they already all be dead by now? Are you attempting to make a utilitarian argument? And will your proposed course of action actually accomplish solving the problem?
Governments make those kind of arguments all the time. We have to give poor people loans to make housing affordable. We have to give more aid to education to raise grade levels, graduation rates. How about an expanded war on drugs?
@justintempler By that logic I could say, "We have to always give banks and companies billions of dollars because they gave out to many loans which they know wouldn't be paid back." Let me rephrase my water comment. There are millions of people, because of capitalism, don't have free access to water and have to pay more for water than gas. I never said anything about the drug war, in fact I'm anti-war on all levels especially the 40 year futile war on drugs, Thank you Nixon.
@24158010063574 Of course there are people in other systems that are failing, and life is miserable.
But those are OTHER systems. Our system is giving more of everything to everyone than ever before in history.
If you were in a very bad school system, but there were other school systems that were doing a good job, you wouldn't point to your bad situation as a reason to change the OTHER school systems doing a good job. That makes no sense at all.
@Warming4FunNprofit hmm, that's simply not true. Our system only protects The United States, and not even fully. Just look at places like Palestine. Which is oppressed deeply by US affairs. Or even most of south America. The capitalist system in which we exist in currently just exploits resources of other countries, natural and human. In a school system where 1/6 of the people are failing, I don't consider that "working" or "giving more of everything to everyone than ever before in history."
@24158010063574 I'm not sure what you mean by "protects", but our system (democratic capitalism) benefits everyone that uses it.
It's simply not arguable that our system is providing more to people than any other system in the long history of man. Just because it is not perfect, does not mean that the system is not the best yet devised.
So to say what we're doing "isn't working" simply makes no sense. It's working better than any other method tried, so I'm confused by her statement.
I aggree with the aims of The Venus Project, and think it is important for people to be aware of this alternative. The facts is though that at the end of the day people follow the path of least resistence, so what really needs to happen is to intelligently manipulate the finacial and corporate systems to make something like The Venus Project a more simple an accessible ''path'' to follow. So people who debate endlessly about how The Venus Project cannot work better than the current finacial and
@TVPchallenge What I'd like to do now is show you what will destroy TVP, not because I want to rain on your parade, I like you and your hopeful ideals, but I have to be honest. Potato chips. They will end TVP. RBE forbids food that isn't nutritious, so there will be NO chips. But there are potatos. And there is cooking oil, salt, and heat. I now have potato chips, you see? Only me, and you want some (I let u sample a few), now what would you be willing to give me for some potato chips?
@RyderSpearmann Dude... you have NO idea what you're talking about! lol 1) Where is it documented that TVP will "forbid" *ANYTHING*? (I JUST said in RBE 101 that it's not about "babysitting people"/telling them what they can/cannot have!) 2) Where is it written/spoken that TVP will forbid "foods that are not nutritious?" 3) If there is cooking oil, salt, heat, etc. and YOU have potato chips, and EVERYONE has access to the same things you have access to, then why can't people just make their own?
@TVPchallenge Let me direct you to the organization that you support, the description on JACQUE FRESCOs web site (the inventor of RBE): "With automated inventory on a global scale, we can maintain a balance between production and distribution. Only nutritious and healthy food would be available..."
Were you really unaware of this?
This means that the most popular and tasty foods simply won't be produced, by design.
This means *shortages*, which means desire & trade, which may mean money.
@RyderSpearmann "Only nutritious food will be available (in the distribution centers)" simply means we're not going to mass produce CRAP. That does not translate to "making your own food/chips is forbidden." FAQ 99: "Food and nutrition would be based upon PERSONAL PREFERENCE." There's a vid where JF talks about automated restaurants & ordering food exactly how you want it prepared. Also, has it occurred to you that there are healthier ways to prepare many of the "unhealthy" foods we eat today?
@TVPchallenge "Only nutritious and healthy food would be available..." "That does not translate to "making your own food/chips is forbidden."
If you can circumvent the official distribution channels and there is demand for your product you have just created a black market and there goes your RBE.
...and who decides what is "healthy"? Are you going to outlaw white sugar, white rice, white flour? How about bacon? Or is there going to be RBE GMO versions approved for general consumption?
@justintempler (1/3) "If you can circumvent the official distribution channels and there is demand for your product..."
This is where you are already mistaken, by calling it "your" product. (You are picking and choosing parts of my comments, and ignoring the rest. Pls see about restaurant ordering (to your liking) and also various ways to prepare the same foods (i.e. chips) but healthier.) I will repeat, if you have access to tools/materials/ingredients, etc. to make something that you like >>
(2/3) so does EVERYONE ELSE, so how is it YOUR product? If people can just easily get their own, why would they "trade" for it? More importantly, WHAT would you want for it, if YOU already have everything too? Even if you argue something like "well if I want a woman, I can ask her to trade her body/time/etc. for my 'product' (chips/whatever). That's something I can't just go get." Ok. Good luck with that, when SHE already has access to anything and everything. As I already mentioned, healthy >>
(3/3) & nutritious food simply means it's going to be quality food and not something that is proven to have ill effects on human health. Science can "decide" that, but it's up to us to take that into consideration. TVP is about making nutrition information AVAILABLE to people to make their own choice.
"Are you going to outlaw..." FAQ 95: "Food and nutrition would be based upon personal preference[...]We can not outlaw what people eat..." Please read FAQ in full.
@TVPchallenge I'm picking and choosing the parts of your comments that have holes so big that I could drive a Mack truck through.
You just blew away any RBE claims to efficiency if EVERYONE has access to tools/materials/ingredients to make something they like. In a monetary system prices ration those goods, but in your RBE you just give them away to anyone that thinks they want to ATTEMPT to make something irregardless if they have any SKILL to do what they attempt. (You must not cook much)
@justintempler "I'm picking and choosing the parts..." that's fine, but you can't just IGNORE the parts that plug the holes! Of course it has holes if you only take HALF the comment!?
"You just blew away any RBE claims to efficiency if EVERYONE has access" No, now you're moving the goal posts. The premise in his example was that a given individual MADE potato chips. If he made them he MUST have had access to the materials to make them, so he/you have not explained why I don't have access too.
@TVPchallenge Giving everyone easy access to scarce resources GUARANTEES that people that have no skill or experience & should never attempt manufacturing products will WASTE some of those scarce resources taking them away from people that have MORE skill, MORE knowledge, & MORE experience to use those resources more EFFICIENTLY.
If you like giving people access to resources you should get a job handing out government stimulus checks and see how well that works. :-)
You are crazy. There isn't "one hypothetical person". There are millions of them, and they aren't hypothetical. They have names and addresses. It's farcical. Bill Gates is a real greedy person.
Saying "What we have now obviously isn't working" is nonsense. It produced the most privileged people on earth with the most information available to them ever. It isn't perfect, but it has a hell of a leg up on your fairy tail.
monokhem 6 days ago
Great video :)
00000Talon 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
For those trusting humanity to create a better world: Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? If you can't trust your own motives, how can you trust Jacque Fresco's?
Those who wait for Christ will inherit the earth; others will not: Matthew 5:5: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
We cannot save the earth because of entropy, and entropy is God's punishment for revolting against His authority.
Mumiaw18 1 week ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"If" God exists, He might rain on the VP parade.
Jesus is mentioned outside of the bible: /user/IdaSputum#g/c/1CE8F47F30895DEE .
Evolution is beyond impossible: evolutionfacts (dt) com/Handbook%20TOC.htm
Humans have never evolved, but we are devolving (scientifically proven): /watch?v=_hHcu8yuxgk
Mumiaw18 1 week ago
I'm one of those people that would get lazy in the Venus system
FrankJeeves 2 weeks ago
like u a lot ...
mrHomeIsHome 2 weeks ago
You are full of win.
skizzarz 2 weeks ago
You speak my mind entirely. Nice to see someone using something they have been naturally born with....a brain :) love the video. Keep it up. We need to get this message out as far and wide as possible
Peace
willymartino 1 month ago
After thinking it over for some time I have a thought. First of all I think this is a great idea. It's actually really beautiful. The idea of a free world unshackled by cost and lack is thrilling. But there's something to be said about persistence and toil and hardship. Without persecution would we know freedom? Without toil and hardship would we know faith and love? I think there's a special quality in these things. An anti-beauty of balance. I believe everything worth shouldn't be easy or free
milkenobi 1 month ago in playlist philosophy worth rewatching
@milkenobi"
1."everything worth shouldn't be easy or free","only with HARD work u can get something","suffering brings growth",...->all of this repeting "truth" are old PROGRAMS which feed us from childhood!!!Now think about few things:if u looking at flowers and smell them, then u have to also look and smell excrement,to value beauty of the flowers? NO! If u eat juicy orange,then u have to eat stinking,rotten fish first to value full taste of fruit? NO!
JaanaJ1 3 weeks ago
@milkenobi
2.You know why?Because your soul,spirit,REAL YOU (however you want to call it) know exactly what harmony is,what happiness is,what life is.Child is happy with no comparisons and no need to look at ugly world to enjoy the beauty of being.Then,when is adult and loses those naturally given goods,simply mises them.Something inside screeming,that should be different in real world,which was created for all of us on the Earth.
JaanaJ1 3 weeks ago
@milkenobi
3.What you belive now,is your mind only,but listen to your inner voice,then you will hear something completely different.Jesus,Budda,... many great people said that is enough everything for enybody and even more.So there is no reason to suffer and fight for something,what is our natural right.I think there is enough evidence and suffering, to prove how valuable things mankind has lost.We ALREADY KNOW value of peace,love and happiness.
JaanaJ1 3 weeks ago
@milkenobi
4.I knew value of Love before I lost it.Do you think I value love more now? No, I'm suffer now only,because inside of me I KNEW and I KNOW what love is and how valuable is.
Do you need more wars and poverty to understand and feel that we don't need it?
I don't need that,children don't need that, animals don't need that, to feel the value...
I am only tired of paying and hard gaining the simple things in life.
JaanaJ1 3 weeks ago
Ideas like The Venus Project press really hard on my cynical and open-minded nerves at the same time.
milkenobi 1 month ago in playlist philosophy worth rewatching
I believe this is one of the first videos where my finger instantly pressed the LIKE button before even listening to what she had to say!
EasternMerchant 2 months ago
Make no mistake here I admirre your work---human nature is there and you are dealing with it---People do not like change---Would you agree to that even if it is for their own good or good of posterity--the answer you gave is worthless---tell her how a future society would deal with this type problem--not that it wont happen or that this system needs to change---people cannot visulize that---if change is going to happen people need to be able to visualize it--thats why u r doing this do it better
riseingstardust 2 months ago
@riseingstardust "People do not like change"
Why you saying "people", talk for yourself.
I like changes! I like new, fresh ideas, change is natural and everything aroud is changing every day, my body,my thoughts,my inspirations.It's evolution and I like it and I know I'm not only one.
JaanaJ1 3 weeks ago
In terms of the idea of RBE. What has been demonstrable demonstrated to show that things like agriculture, material production, distribution, etc can be done with minimal to no human labor. For instance, has it been demonstrated that machines can plant, pick, and distribute fruit from a single fruit tree with minimal to no human labor?
Foxcanine1 2 months ago
Why do you think we need to eliminate security for The Venus Project to work? I'm a computer programmer. I've got some great ideas for security that could make it much better than what we have now for people, overall.
Foaman 3 months ago
And what about relationships? What, dudes won't be dudes & chicks won't be chicks? Think about it, I see murder & violence right off jump street. Not even getting into greed of material things. Don't males often compete for female mates? What happens to the guy that goes bonkers walking in on his girl fucking some other dude & smashes them both into pulp? Does he get punished? Who is in charge here? HELLO? anybody? WON"T WORK! sorry....try again.
radfahtit 3 months ago
@radfahtit Please review my introduction video where I cover the Challenge rules, such as reading the FAQ. This question is answered there, so please start there and come back if you have a question/comment regarding the answer. This is to prevent rehashing TVP 101 over & again with noobs, which I can see that you are, since you seem to think that you are the first person to ask this question, and that Jacque Fresco, a 95 yr old social scientist, hasn't thought of that. "Sorry... try again."
TVPchallenge 3 months ago 7
Right, you can go ahead with this venus city however it will only be after totally anarchy and complete unrest and revolt. So all that survive the upheaval will have to rebuild. ok, then people get together and lets do it. Who is gonna be in charge here. See where i am going here? I am sorry but history is likley to repeat.
radfahtit 3 months ago
@radfahtit Again, challenge rules. There are far too many people with their "opinion" for me to waste my time with every single one of them so I need facts, not "history is 'likely' to repeat," and "it can only be built after mass chaos." Says who? An example of a 'fact' would be: The Gaviotans in Colombia, S. America use sustainable farming methods, have free food, free housing, and free education, and as a result have had no weapons, prisons, police, or gov't leader for over 30 years.
TVPchallenge 3 months ago 4
@TVPchallenge wow you are smart in this point :)
30 years without bad results and good things? WOW :D
Play671 1 week ago
This is the best video in YouTube. Period.
TheDarkFenix 3 months ago
I wish there was a video game for The Venus Project.
packleader1215 3 months ago
The desire for "fame and wealth" is a product of one's environment during early developmental ages. To say that you are a student of science then claiming that something like human behavior can't be changed is a contradiction of logic.
If this is true, how do societies exist that show no greed or malice toward one another. "Size of the group" you may say, but this, too, is nothing but a cop out.
TheSinisterScourge 3 months ago
How is the venus project different than any socialist movement throughout history? If you have to post all these vids to convince people that the answer to one form of tyrany is another form of tyrany, good luck to you. I'll never trust any person or group with the entire world's resources. BAD IDEA
WTFukinshit 3 months ago
@WTFukinshit If you understand open science, post-scarcity, and the concept of a global Type 1 civilization on the Kardashev scale, than the difference is blatantly obvious. If you don't, then I honestly doubt you would understand my answer to your question. So first let me know if you are familiar w/those, and how you find them similar to Socialism; then we can proceed. The videos are not to "convice" anyone of anything, but to try and enhance the discussion, sans uneducated assumptions/labels.
TVPchallenge 3 months ago
@TVPchallenge Okay, so I had to read up on the terms you put forth. We don't live in a type-1 civilization. When we get there, we'll talk. I think cold fusion is the answer we're all looking for. An achievement like sustained reliable cold fusion would truly change the way we operate as a society. But I still won't and can't trust people with all the world's resources...that is the basis of socialism and the end of private property.
WTFukinshit 3 months ago
@WTFukinshit (1/2) "When we get there, we'll talk." We're going to need to talk in order to get there, so that doesn't make any sense at all. Good luck getting there while everyone stays quiet and accepts the status quo. As far as "trusting" people with the world's resources, this is why I asked if you understood Open Science (keyword: open). The point is that it nullifies the ability and, more importantly, the incentive for corruption. Finding sustainable ways to provide the world's people w/>>
TVPchallenge 3 months ago
(2/2) access to resources is not remotely the same thing as a group of people or government having exclusive control over resources - at all. Fearing the RBE for this reason is like avoiding the beach bc you "still won't and can't trust people with all that sand." In a situation of open-source information & technology we can achieve a state of abundance that means not "the end of private property," but the end of any logical reason for exclusive access. In other words, it becomes obsolete.
TVPchallenge 3 months ago
(And for the record, none of the these things are something you can just "read up" on in a few minutes (esp. all 3 of them) and hence your, still, fallacious comparison to Socialism, or fear of "trusting people" with the world's resources, but I'd recommend checking out adciv*org.)
TVPchallenge 3 months ago
@TVPchallenge I get "open science" but as a student of science, I also understand human greed. If I stumbled upon the cure for cancer or cold fusion tomorrow, I'd want fame and wealth as a result. Maybe that seems petty or selfish, but it's true. It's probably true for you too, if you're honest with yourself. I'd love for us all to live in a perfect society with wonderous abundance, but humans love to be bigger than their neighbor...perfect example, christmas light competitions
WTFukinshit 3 months ago
How is the venus project different than any socialist movement throughout history?
WTFukinshit 3 months ago
YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THIS, TRY THIS THOUGH THE GAME IS RIGGED AND THIS WHAT WE HAVE ALL BEEN BORN INTO AT THIS TIME OF THE WORLD. AND THE ONLY WAY TO WIN THE GAME. IS TO NOT PLAY THE GAME. YOU ALSO SOUND TO MUCH LIKE A RECORDING FROM PJ OR JF NOT THAT IS A BAD THING JUST NOTICEING. THE ARGUMENT YOU MAKE ON PEOPLE BEING LAZY OR CREATIVE NEEDS TO BE MADE BETTER I HAVE LANGUAGE YOU CAN USE, THAT MAY PREFER, I AM IN SAN JOSE, CA RISEINGSTARDUST@GMAIL.COM I HOPE TO CHAT WITH YOU. THANK YOU
riseingstardust 3 months ago
its true cause jews would take over it
ASubscribingMadness 3 months ago
From everything I've been watching and reading about RBE/Zeitgeist/Venus subject, I'm still at a loss at what will be done to corrosive elements SPECIFICALLY during the transitional years (and the cultural and societal changes for RBE to work would take decades), will they be detained or denied products/resources etc...?
naughtypagan72 3 months ago
Wow, this video alone can convince every single human being... Great job. I was already on your side but, i didn't think about some of the stuff you mentioned, very good.
CntthnkO15 3 months ago
Hi. I would like to introduce myself.
I'm a Biological Sociopath, the only moral compass I have is a developed interest in philosophy and ethics. I lack the ability to feel pity, emotional empathy, guilt, remorse ect, these emotional short cuts simply do not exist in me and must be compensated for at a philosophical level. That's why I'm a socialist and not a communist, socialist works with a flawed humanity, communism expects too much
Would the Venus project be compatible with my sociopathy?
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades Yes, the answer is in technology and machines. The Venus Project does not expect too much from you.
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey Then it sounds great. Basic question though, how do you motivate labor, especially for unpleasant but necessary jobs that can't, for whatever reason, be done by machines?
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades Such as what? What can't machines do? And if there are actual unpleasant jobs that machines cannot do, there are always people in a community based environment who understand the need for this work to be done. The very idea of this ideal society is being constructed by people who have no hope to gain anything except a better, more efficient world. Now factor in a society of people who have been influenced (or argueably brainwashed) to think in exactly the same way.
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey The question isn't "Will machines ever be able to" the question is "who will fill that role until machines are able to, and how will those who fill such roles be motivated". The complete mechanization of all labor would have to have a transitional period in which human labor still filled a variety of roles, and for some jobs human labor may simply be best suited until we develop machines with a human level reasoning capacity at which point the machines may not want to do it.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades lol, I doubt machines will ever develope such a human emotion; they will always be constructed the way we want them to be. As for that transitional period, as I have already explained, the revolutionary people will have no problem doing these tasks (if they exist). The goal is to create a society that carries these ideals before actually creating the society.
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey Why do you think they would need emotion to refuse a task?
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades What else would cause them to refuse to do so but Pride, Laziness, or some other FEELING that would influence their reasoning? To tell you the truth I entertained the question, but truthfully the likelihood of machines reaching a reasoning capacity that exceeds doing the tasks human beings tell them to is not possible at all.
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey So are you assuming that the only thing that can motivate an intelligent thinking being to act is emotion?
I mean first there's no guarantee that a machine is going to be better suited for every task, second there's no way we're just going to suddenly have every machine needed for every task there would have to be a transitional period, and third, if a task requires a machine to be given human level intelligence why just assume that without emotion there would be no autonomy?
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades No, the opposite: With intelligence comes emotion; it's inevitable. Even primates- no even dogs have emotions.
First of all, I disagree: I think a machine CAN be better suited for ANY task we design it for. Second, you're right, there would have to be a transitional period (so what?), and third, what makes you think machines have to have human level intelligence to do tasks? Computers do AMAZING things today, but I don't see any that can form a rational thought.
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey How are you defining emotion? Primates and dogs have emotions because they have the same chemical basis for experiencing feelings that we do.
First I never said machines couldn't be better suited, but that they may not always be. Second so we need a way to motivate labor to do exceedingly mundane and unpleasant tasks simply expecting them to put their hands up to maintain society is naive. Third, I'm simply saying that some tasks may require human level intelligence.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades I.e intelligence lol. A chemical basis for the capacity of experiencing feelings can only be interpretted with intelligence. The original point: machines will never refuse work. Even ants, who have little to no intelligence work tirelessly because they're genetically programmed to do so.
First, we'll cross the "machines may not always be better suited" bridge when we get there. Second it's not a naive expectation if it's a societal norm. There are cars that park themselves
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey Yeah, but not every task is as clean and mechanical as parking a car, some tasks require the ability to react to unexpected circumstances in an intelligent manner, what happens when a machine is faced with a problem that goes outside it's programming? If it has the intelligence to address such problems, we should not underestimate the potential of that intelligence to surprise us and expect obedient drones. It would be very arrogant to presume such mastery over an intelligent creation.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades That's a good point. No doubt there will be some unexpected, uncalculable problems. And maybe machines really could evolve to that type of intelligence. We'd have to try to find out first.
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey I may have a special interest in this because I'm a biological sociopath removed from many of the normal emotions that people experience but still capable of functioning in some sense ethically in society. Behaviorist definitions being pushed by corporate psychologists in America can make that confusing, but they diagnose by the behavioral symptoms of the disorder.
But I'm biologically incapable of normal love or empathy, guilt, shame, pity, ect but find that I find I don't need them.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@clonjey Ahem, minus the redundant "I find"
I think that when we do develop intelligent machines we will be forced to radically re-examine and redefine personhood, we probably already should since a person's identity can be drastically altered and even erased through prolonged sensory deprivation and psychological conditioning or torture.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades I doubt it. Those intelligent machines, even if they become so intelligent that they render the human race obsolete, will still be just that- machines. Programmed to coldly do what we tell them; unwavering and void of feeling. And we'll always see them as such. How about creating a society where sensory deprivation and psychological conditioning will not occur? lol
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey Humans are just biological machines, and if you expect an intelligent being to simply coldly and unwaveringly follow it's programming indefinitely then I think that's pretty arrogant, you should never underestimate the capacity of that which possesses intelligence to surprise you.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades I would agree with you if it weren't for 1 factor difference between biological machines and artificial ones: Artificial intelligence, programmed by human beings do not have a sense of will & can't learn it. They actually have no sense at all. In fact, artificial intelligence shouldn't have the word "intelligence" in it at all since the definition is the capacity to learn; or reason. Verily, machines only learn what we teach them & have no capability of learning it themselves.
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey Except artificial intelligence may not be enough for some tasks, artificial intelligence leads to machines not being able to function outside their programming, there will always be tasks humans are much better suited for if machines can't learn and adapt to preform their tasks the way humans can. Artificial intelligence is just fake intelligence, complex behavior based on programming to mimic intelligence.
Then again human intelligence is emergent off of basic biological programs.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
@Laughingblades So are you agreeing with me that machines will never gain the capability to decide to refuse to work? Or are you pointing out that this is why we could never rely on machines in a society like this?
clonjey 4 months ago
@clonjey I'm not exactly agreeing. If they are ever made truly intelligent they may be able to refuse work, I only agree insofar as they are not made truly intelligent or can not develop an emergent intelligence as an unexpected side effect of their programming.
And if they are not made truly intelligent then there will always be tasks for which humans are better suited. Machines are great for doing manual labor and operating within defined parameters but they are easy to fool.
Laughingblades 4 months ago
This is a very good video. You make strong points.
NoCigar1991 4 months ago
My question to all viewers who read this and feel the need or lust to respond: Why have we not seen a utopia yet? Prove me wrong; support me - I always enjoy a good debate, and I look forward to any/all responses! Just note that however great an idea may be, it is only as mortal as humanity will allow it.
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
This "Bad Egg" theory is actually very true. Not everyone is for the same ideas because it may not benefit them. Ideals such as this "Venus Project" are wonderful! I would love to see the next generation prosper happily. However people seem to forget another prospect of the psychology of the masses: we thrive on conflict. How do you unite people? Give them all a common antagonist to work against or compete with. Ugly enough, this "conflict" is usually in the form of war.
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
@zoomizoomzoomzam (1/2) I didn't claim it was "untrue," I'm simply saying that it's a stupid reason not to at least *improve* the socio-economic system we're living in as much as possible. It's not about everyone being "for the same ideas." Everyone needs food, water, clean air, shelter, clothing, socialization, etc. so the only way those things "may not benefit" someone is if they want to be unhealthy, psychotic, both, or dead. Do you have any studies/sources showing that we thrive on conflict?
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
(2/2) The studies I've seen on human nature and human behavior have shown the opposite, that we thrive on empathy, belonging, compassion, etc. and that conflict has a very adverse affect on our psychology and development. The Gaviotans in Colombia S. America use sustainable farming methods, have free food, free shelter, and free education, and haven't had weapons, police, prisons, or a gov't leader for over 30 years. They're thriving alright, and it isn't from conflict.
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
Perfect.
Enzo2284 4 months ago
@MrYellowmattercustar Yes, I have to agree the YT commenting system sux ballz. =/ lol Thank you for the discussion, and let me know if you have any questions! (Also, I organized the TVP FAQ by subject/category, and provided links to various sources, if you find it useful: tvpchallenge*blogspot*com/2010/06/frequently-asked-frequently-asked*html)
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
(2/2) "it calls for no army or police force" - It doesn't "call for" this; it results in this. The Gaviotans in Colombia S. America use sustainable farming methods, and have free food, free housing, and free education. They've had no weapons, prisons, police, or governmental leader for over 30 years. All TVP "calls for" is the technical application of solutions, the scientific method applied socially. The results (peace, abundance, sustainability, healthy environment, etc.) happen on their own.
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
(3/3) "If people like me own those resources[...]"
lol - I love this one. Don't flatter yourself. I guarantee you that you don't have any resources or land that we would need to build multi-billion dollar sustainable cities. But thank you for [not] offering. More importantly, we've already addressed this nonsense (repeatedly) here: watch?v=7K12CPvc8wU, and here: watch?v=0j4lOV5l3Ac. What part of it's 100% voluntary and not *everyone* has to participate, is so difficult?
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
@MrYellowmattercustar (1/2) "The venus project is just a high tech version of communism"
This gross oversimplification and miscategorization really shows that you don't actually understand what the RBE is, and what TVP is proposing. By centralizing certain inherently common aspects of society's infrastructure, i.e. food, water, transportation, etc. we can reduce redundancy & waste, thus enabling abundance. Communism presupposes the elimination of "private property" through * CONTROL >>
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
(2/2) >> NOT through outgrowing the need for it, and rendering it obsolete, and thus Communism still accepts a state of scarcity for even the most basic human needs. This is not remotely the same as people *voluntarily choosing* that they no longer want or need their private property bc they unresitricted access to everything anyway. The benefits of this method are explained clearly here: watch?v=PvoJ2Js5294. Also see adciv*org.
TVPchallenge 4 months ago
@MrYellowmattercustar Ok, I will read information about the US constitution and get back at ya. But I would like to know what are the advantages you like of the Constitution. Please do explain as I am not well informed. Maybe I will change my mind.
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@MrYellowmattercustar and besides the US Constitution DOESN'T WORK! It's been around since 1787. I think after trying for 224 years, it's time for a change, dont you think?
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@MrYellowmattercustar and who made this US constitution? The same ones who also made the banks and profit system? The free enterprise system? that makes products not for the betterment of human beings but for the profit of money?? What constitution??
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
1 We are trained in the monetary system to have opinions. It comes down to this. If you critizes, be specific on WHAT you critize. And than tell us how you would do it differently. If you have a better plan, than people will follow. If not.. than there's no point to critizes! We all want no war, no corruption, no povety, hungry people and crime. Humans have shown that they cannot civilized when it comes to profit. That's why creating a Venus culture we can get rid of of profit based structure.
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
2 Our world Today is build of oil, carbon resources, from houses to clothing, to usage of petrol for cars. By using clean resources like the Sun, wind, water and making that accesble for all human being we will be able to live in a cleaner enviroment and safe the Earth climate. All humans should agree to this. Everyone wants a house that is for instance fire proof, and build with the best material. Everyone wants to use transportation that reaches their destination quickly.
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
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3. Everyone wants to have good nutrition and clean water. Everyone wants great healthcare and good doctors and hospitals for FREE. Everyone should want free education. The point is as long as our basic needs are controlled. Like food, water, housing, electricity, we will not be free. But with our technology Today, we can already enhance all of the renewable resources and control them indepently We the people have to get control of our basic needs in life.
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
4/ Differences between for instance religion can be bridge by looking at the similarities and the basic needs of life, if they agree to this, they should be able to want to work towards it, and if not in the Venus project they will be treated, not put in jail or put on deathrow. But treated with education. No violence. If you don't want all the things I have mentioned here, which the Venus project advocates, than you are not ready for change.
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
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sexyslim1982 4 months ago
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sexyslim1982 4 months ago
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sexyslim1982 4 months ago
How would the TZM deal with the problem of racism which is quite a bad egg that would throw a monkey wrench in this proposed system?
catalystleader 5 months ago
@catalystleader Through education!
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@sexyslim1982 You are automatically assuming that most people are suited towards education. If you take the time to look around you, you'll realize that most are not.
catalystleader 4 months ago
@catalystleader I didn't assume automatically, that is also a plan of approach for the Venus Project. And the project needs about 7000 people, technicians, scientist, and the access to the materials to build the first city. If that is achieved many will follow. So building the first city is essential for the transition. But I'm afraid the monetary system has to completely fail, than people who believe in the project and are educated about it, will join.
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@sexyslim1982 Yes many will follow, specifically just to be parasticial on the hardwork of others. Additionally I don't know how a single city can achieve autarky and cut itself off from the monetary system.
catalystleader 4 months ago
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sexyslim1982 4 months ago
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sexyslim1982 4 months ago
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@catalystleader I think when you see that something works, people will follow? I hope. It wouldn't make sense for people not too. I mean you don't have to work, You have the best quality house, best car, control over your resources such as light and free food etc. And people in the monetary would stay in the monetary system because? they like money? If they want to stay here, they can stay there. I won't be joining them lol
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@sexyslim1982 What about law and order. You need people to do these jobs. what incentive is there to do them if nobdy else has to work. What about race, culture, and the roots that come from them and the propensity of individuals to identify with these roots? I'm not defending capitalism here, but a civilization that has no incentive to be innovative and intelligent will become a dead civilization.
catalystleader 4 months ago
@catalystleader - Indeed. This is the contradiction of socialism, the contradiction of humanity. As much as I enjoy leaving people behind to rot in their own filth as the next guy, capitalism dangles the possibility of success in front of people like bait, thus focusing negative energy into positive results. Kind of like war profiteering - Is it fun? I would hope not. Does it get food on the table efficiently? Yes. You can always MAKE people work at gunpoint, CONVINCING them to work is hard.
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
@zoomizoomzoomzam Capitalism can only get food on the table sufficiently only when it realizes that the economic system is the servant of the nation. Not the other way around.
catalystleader 4 months ago
Catalystleader - It has a tendency to work better if "the economic system is the servant of the nation", but how long does that work out? The longest period (without some sort of self serving foundation) of an economic system in service of the nation was of England's and America's that during WWII. It ended still. I have no doubt that within time, this utopia will be present. My only question is with all of our races compassion, grace, and intelligence, why has it not happened permanently?
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
@zoomizoomzoomzam It works out until cultural degradation sets in and people develop selfish values and attitudes and no longer have a belief in the nation. That's why I'd have Corporatism combined with Fascism. In regards to your last question it is because we have obliterated our national identity with post-modernist pop culture and mass immigration. That's why it hasn't happened yet.
catalystleader 4 months ago
@zoomizoomzoomzam , convincing people to work without payment is hard; convincing people to work with payment is easy. Should the VP do what is hard or easy?
Mumiaw18 1 week ago
@catalystleader - Well, Sexyslim1982 can always be the first to start a space colony; socialist ideals work much better in smaller communities. America COULD switch to self sufficiency because of our resource abundance, but it would throw the world into utter chaos. I am not sure we would have enough popcorn to watch another genocide. >:)
zoomizoomzoomzam 4 months ago
@sexyslim1982 , if the (debt based) monetary system fails, would you support people creating an asset based monetary system? The transition will take years, and people will be dying. The VP won't be able to provide for everyone on day 1 after the crash.
Mumiaw18 1 week ago
I wish I knew as close to a solid number of people who if they are not at least intrigued of the ideas expressed in VP\TZM. I honestly believe it is a large # and getting larger maybe not even 5% of the population but even 5% is a good start. I have been watching many TZM\VP videos to gain a scope of the interest in these ideas. Based on your videos I can say you are a very open minded smart individual. Thnx for the video be well
willweeverlearn 5 months ago
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TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
I'm not interested in the content of this video... but the woman speaking is BEAUTIFUL.
Ant1Live 6 months ago
@Ant1Live It's that mentality that will be the end of us. Get interested for your sake, and your children's sake.
But i agree, she's pretty. And here's a girl talking.
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
@TheDarkFenix Interested in a Disney new world fantasy? Humans lack the capacity to create a successful society (Jeremiah 10:23). Not only is it not worth trying, it is an insult to the one who created us to try to make our own world instead being a part of His (Revelation 21:3,4; Revelation 4:11).
Ant1Live 6 months ago
@Ant1Live And that, my friends, is a perfect example of how religion alienates people. "To create a successful society is not even worth trying", he just said that, look.
These people are looking forward to apocalypse.
An insult is someone having their thinking capability lowered so much, it's an insult, even better a disgrace to the human race. People like you holds humanity back, you're a sick individual, the reason you don't know this is cuz you've been indulged by institutons since birth.
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
@TheDarkFenix You sound like a conspiracy theorist, even a denialist. If you can't address someone who views the world differently without assigning a diagnosis- without poisoning the well, then it calls in to question who the really sick, alienated person is. Are all TVP advocates similar to you? The type of person who believes yourself above the fray and scorns anything that doesn't remind you of yourself? Well, now, I'm definitely not interested in a whole new world with you.
Ant1Live 6 months ago
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sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@Ant1Live If you believe humans lack the capacity to create a succesful society. Than what's the use of religion quote? I do believe that you believe in the 10 commandments. That means that Jesus believed that man could do it. Think about this. God is the creator of our universe and us. That means He created all of us, even the bad people. God had a divine plan, meaning praying won't help. It's His DIVINE PLAN and will not be changed. In the bible it also says, Thou shall creat Heaven on EARTH.
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@sexyslim1982 Show me the scripture where it says that...
My response to your entire comment is Jeremiah 10:23.
Ant1Live 4 months ago
@TheDarkFenix It's all for naught anyway (Daniel 2:44)
Ant1Live 6 months ago
wats yo number doe lol.....
noiradeparker 6 months ago
@TrollTheTrollTroller I see. Well, I unfortunately had to delete his last purely ad hominem comment and block him, but thanks for the warning. =/ And thanks for the kind words & support =)
TVPchallenge 6 months ago
Amazing to think about it...very inteligent thinking...
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
This girl acts like people who are against the Venus Project, are therefore advocating every aspect of the current system. It's like the 911 truthers, you say you don't agree with a conspiracy, they assume that you have been brain washed by the media, or I couldn't accept that the government would lie to me (they lie all the time). People in cults (Truth Movement, Zeitgeist movement) just can't accept the fact that it's only their idea we are against, that doesn't mean we are for the current.
theBartone9119 6 months ago
@theBartone9119 (1/2) "This girl acts like people who are against the Venus Project, are therefore advocating every aspect of the current system." Not at all; there are plenty of people who are "against the VP" who also criticize the current system, and propose monetary reform or free market anarchism. I just don't agree. It is a strawman to say that it's like "9/11 Truthers" bc I fundamentally disagree w/that false dichotomy as well ("You must believe 9/11 was an inside job or you're a sheep!")
TVPchallenge 6 months ago
(2/2) "... just can't accept the fact that it's only their idea we are against, that doesn't mean we are for the current." Another strawman. I never said "if you don't agree w/TVP, you MUST be for the current system!" As I said previously, it does not matter to me whether you are for the current system or NOT. The point is, whatever system you ARE for (which you have yet to explain), I want to know how it's supposedly better than the Resource Based Economy.
TVPchallenge 6 months ago
@TVPchallenge Another free market anarcho-capitalism individual...they're everywhere these days...
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
Thanks for your work. Please keep it up. Don't stop.
KingGoddard 6 months ago
Thanks, i will look at it
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
Some don't comit crimes just because they don't think it's worth it going to jail or dying for something they want. But i do agree the venus project can avoid 95% of those money/property crimes, and that's reason enough to go for it. But the other crimes, when they do happen, if they do, we'd be powerless, we'd have to fight back, and words wouldn't help, violence leading to more violence. In my opinion, that's the only thing TVP can't answer up until now. All other questions i solved with TVP.
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
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TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
Cont: I could do it with a gun, if i don't get access to one, i'd try it with a knife. Again, i was educated, born insedi the Venus city, this is the future and it's not my human nature or genetic. The environment inside the city (you) changed me, you were a scarce "resource".
Of course, this could also happen in the current system, and it does. The problem there, i won't stop at nothing, no police to protect you, so this would make it easier for me, i could even try it again with another girl..
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
@TheDarkFenix You should watch Jacque Fresco's lecture where he talks about how human beings would be taught how to relate to one another and better communicate w/each other in a social system like TVP, from early childhood. In the current system we are taught to be competitive and sore losers from day one, not how to communicate and bridge differences. More at: tvpchallenge*blogspot*com/search/label/FAQ - Read #7 and #15.
TVPchallenge 6 months ago
You say that if we have enough resources, we won't have the problems we do today. But some resource can't be made abundant. Example: Women.
Let's say i want to have you cause you're too hot. There's only one you, and no other girl would do for me. Even if you wanted me, you won't want everyone who would certainly want you, and this problems gets bigger the hotter one is. But i don't want to talk about "others" so if you don't want me, i decide to kill you. Continues....
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
@TheDarkFenix TVP is based on the Earth's abundant "natural resources" (i.e. water, land, metals, etc.) not "women." We don't have a solution for providing abundant women, but neither does the monetary system. (cont'd)
TVPchallenge 6 months ago
@TheDarkFenix You're definition of too hot is learned by the monetary based system corporations as the media and maybe religion. In Venus, your perception of beauty will change, because there will no longer be advertisements etc.Through education you will learn how to deal with ending an relationship. You will learn how do deal with anger and learn that if that person doesn't want you. You can leave and find someone else without violence.And if that does occur, you will be treated with education
sexyslim1982 4 months ago
@sexyslim1982 , mens attraction to women is genetically wired (or there would be no human species). Corporations can exascerbate that attraction for their own profit, but human genes will never be eliminated from human beings. Also, Christianity teaches us how to deal with anger and ending relationships already. The VP is not needed for that.
Mumiaw18 1 week ago
@sexyslim1982 , the VP talks frequently about "education" and how everyone will be "educated" (indoctrinated) to be cooperative; but with no police, armies, jails or authority, the VP cannot establish itself as the sole source of education in the society.
Mumiaw18 1 week ago
Cont. To assume not a single person will get crazy just because everything is working fine is wishful thinking..
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
Of course, i know i wouldn't get greedy, but i can't say that for all humanity. Let's suppose we got the venus project up and running. Then suddenly, one single person gets access to a machine gun, decides to "go crazy" then what do we do?
For all i know the venus project won't ban anything, including guns, right?
I'm all for TVP and a RBE, but if that happens, what do we do?? I'm not saying our current system is better, far from it, i'm just curious.
TheDarkFenix 6 months ago
What about irreconcilable differences between people. There are, right now, millions of people who believe (one example) homosexuals should be beheaded or slowly strangled to death, as it is divine justice. Created like that or born, those people exist. Not a couple of bad eggs, but millions upon millions of people.
How can you hope to enter a global system (for lack of a better word) with such people?
Mokothar 7 months ago
@Mokothar (1/2) People who believe that about homosexuals believe that because they were taught that by someone or something at some point or another. No one is BORN a bigot. Period. If enough of us voluntarily change our own culture and the way we treat each other, newer generations will follow suit. (Did you even watch the baboon segment?) No, we can't expect to change "millions" of people all at the same time, but we have to start somewhere; I addressed this in the 2nd video (Who's To Blame)!
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
(2/2) If you're thinking "who are we to change their beliefs," that's simple - we owe everything we have, and for most of us, our very lives, to science. Despite what people say, science CAN answer moral questions (see The Moral Landscape) and the RBE is about applying the scientific method for SOCIAL concern. Those who wish to try and uphold the ignorant views of 18th century philosophers like David Hume, should consider THEIR moral landscape: philosophicalmisadventures*com/?p=6. Also see FAQ65
TVPchallenge 7 months ago
To all the naysayers and pessimists: There are 2 options for the future of humanity. Radically changing our own behavior in the very near future and adopting a functional system that works for us and maintains balance with the planet or continue on our current path and go extinct while possibly destroying all other life on the planet with us. The planet does not need us to survive, we need the planet.
NewPeaceOrder 8 months ago
@NewPeaceOrder Couldn't another option be to not radically change anything, and gently evolve our knowledge and systems to become better and better? (like a workout program: improve a little every day).
I believe that the end of the earth has been predicted thousands of times in recorded history. People seem to like to do that. So far, it's not ever happened.
Like grandma used to say: "moderation in all things".
R U really an optimist?: "...destroying all other life on the planet with us."
Warming4FunNprofit 8 months ago
@Warming4FunNprofit The problem is, We've also been gradually destroying the earth and driving thousands of other species to extinction. Along with poisoning the seas, large amounts of our fresh water, the air , and huge amounts of land. The "we haven't killed the planet yet" idea isn't very functional or beneficial to our species or the planet.
There is absolutely no reason why radical change can not happen in our lifetime.
NewPeaceOrder 8 months ago
I think I see the basic problem with TVP.
Since there is an infinite number of things that could be produced, there is no way the RBE could produce them all (infinite production is not possible). This means that most things won't be available, except things that citizens make for themselves.
If I spent 5 years making a unique vehicle, there is no way that I would give it away. Besides, who would I give it to?
If it is unique, lots of people would want it, but I can't give it to everyone.
Warming4FunNprofit 8 months ago
@Warming4FunNprofit I'm no expert on TVP, but I believe the point of the RBE system is to allow all humans free access to the necessary element of life. Energy, Water, Food, Housing. Once that demand is filled and everyone has a high standard of life people will have plenty of time, because of the allocation of mechanized labor. And the people can work together to create leisure items. If that's what the people want.
24158010063574 8 months ago
@24158010063574 Hi... as I read it, RBE is to provide "all goods and services", not just the basics. "a high standard of living for all", and yes, people are creative generally, so some people would create things, but with RBE, there is no property, so I suppose you could simply take/repurpose anything you come across, though that does sound chaotic.
Warming4FunNprofit 8 months ago
@Warming4FunNprofit Hello... as I read it, RBE is to provide a high standard of living to all people. This doesn't mean everyone well have a 15,000 sq foot mansion, it's just not logistical. RBE is, well from what I've read of TVP, an environment, Not a government. And everything is owned by everyone. Although that does sound chaotic, it's much more efficient if organized properly. You should research the system more fluently.
24158010063574 8 months ago
@24158010063574 wait... a moment ago you were saying RBE "is to allow all humans free access to the necessary element of life", but now you are saying it is to provide a high standard of living? (Which is what I pointed out). What are you saying here... that you agree with what I said?
I'm not sure why I am supposed to be researching "more fluently", when I am correcting your misstatements about TVP/RBE. (ie, what RBE is supposed to provide). Pot-> Kettle -> Black.
Warming4FunNprofit 8 months ago
I'm confused. "what we're doing now... isn't working, in case you haven't noticed."
? what ?
I live in the richest society ever known! I experience medical miracles on a regular basis! I have loads of leisure time, endless entertainment, access to almost every ounce of information known to man, so much food that I fight to keep the weight off! I can fly to almost anywhere on the planet, and my credit cards are accepted without question.
What we're doing now isn't working???? I don't get it.
Warming4FunNprofit 8 months ago
@Warming4FunNprofit That's only you. There are millions if not closer to a billion people on the planet that can't afford to eat or even have access to water. There are people who will never see a school, or a hosipital, And that's wrong. We need a world were all people have the same chances to live a good life, not just the top 2%.
24158010063574 8 months ago
@24158010063574 How come there are always a billion starving people with no access to water, wouldn't they already all be dead by now? Are you attempting to make a utilitarian argument? And will your proposed course of action actually accomplish solving the problem?
Governments make those kind of arguments all the time. We have to give poor people loans to make housing affordable. We have to give more aid to education to raise grade levels, graduation rates. How about an expanded war on drugs?
justintempler 8 months ago
@justintempler By that logic I could say, "We have to always give banks and companies billions of dollars because they gave out to many loans which they know wouldn't be paid back." Let me rephrase my water comment. There are millions of people, because of capitalism, don't have free access to water and have to pay more for water than gas. I never said anything about the drug war, in fact I'm anti-war on all levels especially the 40 year futile war on drugs, Thank you Nixon.
24158010063574 8 months ago
@24158010063574 Of course there are people in other systems that are failing, and life is miserable.
But those are OTHER systems. Our system is giving more of everything to everyone than ever before in history.
If you were in a very bad school system, but there were other school systems that were doing a good job, you wouldn't point to your bad situation as a reason to change the OTHER school systems doing a good job. That makes no sense at all.
Warming4FunNprofit 8 months ago
@Warming4FunNprofit hmm, that's simply not true. Our system only protects The United States, and not even fully. Just look at places like Palestine. Which is oppressed deeply by US affairs. Or even most of south America. The capitalist system in which we exist in currently just exploits resources of other countries, natural and human. In a school system where 1/6 of the people are failing, I don't consider that "working" or "giving more of everything to everyone than ever before in history."
24158010063574 8 months ago
@24158010063574 I'm not sure what you mean by "protects", but our system (democratic capitalism) benefits everyone that uses it.
It's simply not arguable that our system is providing more to people than any other system in the long history of man. Just because it is not perfect, does not mean that the system is not the best yet devised.
So to say what we're doing "isn't working" simply makes no sense. It's working better than any other method tried, so I'm confused by her statement.
Warming4FunNprofit 8 months ago
political systems will probably the first to jump on board. On an unrelated note your intelligent and cute.
65j20e58w35 8 months ago
I aggree with the aims of The Venus Project, and think it is important for people to be aware of this alternative. The facts is though that at the end of the day people follow the path of least resistence, so what really needs to happen is to intelligently manipulate the finacial and corporate systems to make something like The Venus Project a more simple an accessible ''path'' to follow. So people who debate endlessly about how The Venus Project cannot work better than the current finacial and
65j20e58w35 8 months ago
@TVPchallenge What I'd like to do now is show you what will destroy TVP, not because I want to rain on your parade, I like you and your hopeful ideals, but I have to be honest. Potato chips. They will end TVP. RBE forbids food that isn't nutritious, so there will be NO chips. But there are potatos. And there is cooking oil, salt, and heat. I now have potato chips, you see? Only me, and you want some (I let u sample a few), now what would you be willing to give me for some potato chips?
RyderSpearmann 8 months ago
@RyderSpearmann Dude... you have NO idea what you're talking about! lol 1) Where is it documented that TVP will "forbid" *ANYTHING*? (I JUST said in RBE 101 that it's not about "babysitting people"/telling them what they can/cannot have!) 2) Where is it written/spoken that TVP will forbid "foods that are not nutritious?" 3) If there is cooking oil, salt, heat, etc. and YOU have potato chips, and EVERYONE has access to the same things you have access to, then why can't people just make their own?
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
@TVPchallenge Let me direct you to the organization that you support, the description on JACQUE FRESCOs web site (the inventor of RBE): "With automated inventory on a global scale, we can maintain a balance between production and distribution. Only nutritious and healthy food would be available..."
Were you really unaware of this?
This means that the most popular and tasty foods simply won't be produced, by design.
This means *shortages*, which means desire & trade, which may mean money.
RyderSpearmann 8 months ago
@RyderSpearmann "Only nutritious food will be available (in the distribution centers)" simply means we're not going to mass produce CRAP. That does not translate to "making your own food/chips is forbidden." FAQ 99: "Food and nutrition would be based upon PERSONAL PREFERENCE." There's a vid where JF talks about automated restaurants & ordering food exactly how you want it prepared. Also, has it occurred to you that there are healthier ways to prepare many of the "unhealthy" foods we eat today?
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
@TVPchallenge "Only nutritious and healthy food would be available..." "That does not translate to "making your own food/chips is forbidden."
If you can circumvent the official distribution channels and there is demand for your product you have just created a black market and there goes your RBE.
...and who decides what is "healthy"? Are you going to outlaw white sugar, white rice, white flour? How about bacon? Or is there going to be RBE GMO versions approved for general consumption?
justintempler 8 months ago
@justintempler (1/3) "If you can circumvent the official distribution channels and there is demand for your product..."
This is where you are already mistaken, by calling it "your" product. (You are picking and choosing parts of my comments, and ignoring the rest. Pls see about restaurant ordering (to your liking) and also various ways to prepare the same foods (i.e. chips) but healthier.) I will repeat, if you have access to tools/materials/ingredients, etc. to make something that you like >>
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
(2/3) so does EVERYONE ELSE, so how is it YOUR product? If people can just easily get their own, why would they "trade" for it? More importantly, WHAT would you want for it, if YOU already have everything too? Even if you argue something like "well if I want a woman, I can ask her to trade her body/time/etc. for my 'product' (chips/whatever). That's something I can't just go get." Ok. Good luck with that, when SHE already has access to anything and everything. As I already mentioned, healthy >>
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
(3/3) & nutritious food simply means it's going to be quality food and not something that is proven to have ill effects on human health. Science can "decide" that, but it's up to us to take that into consideration. TVP is about making nutrition information AVAILABLE to people to make their own choice.
"Are you going to outlaw..." FAQ 95: "Food and nutrition would be based upon personal preference[...]We can not outlaw what people eat..." Please read FAQ in full.
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
@TVPchallenge I'm picking and choosing the parts of your comments that have holes so big that I could drive a Mack truck through.
You just blew away any RBE claims to efficiency if EVERYONE has access to tools/materials/ingredients to make something they like. In a monetary system prices ration those goods, but in your RBE you just give them away to anyone that thinks they want to ATTEMPT to make something irregardless if they have any SKILL to do what they attempt. (You must not cook much)
justintempler 8 months ago
@justintempler "I'm picking and choosing the parts..." that's fine, but you can't just IGNORE the parts that plug the holes! Of course it has holes if you only take HALF the comment!?
"You just blew away any RBE claims to efficiency if EVERYONE has access" No, now you're moving the goal posts. The premise in his example was that a given individual MADE potato chips. If he made them he MUST have had access to the materials to make them, so he/you have not explained why I don't have access too.
TVPchallenge 8 months ago
@TVPchallenge Giving everyone easy access to scarce resources GUARANTEES that people that have no skill or experience & should never attempt manufacturing products will WASTE some of those scarce resources taking them away from people that have MORE skill, MORE knowledge, & MORE experience to use those resources more EFFICIENTLY.
If you like giving people access to resources you should get a job handing out government stimulus checks and see how well that works. :-)
justintempler 8 months ago