Left wingers and right wingers belong to the same vulture/predator. THe illusion is that there is a difference. LOOK at all the similarities. Both right wing and left wing have big government, big taxes, big war... No difference. Any one who thinks there is a difference is deluded. For someone to think that people don't make money off war...? We need more hell on earth before our eyes may open up. Right, left, right,left.... The elite are using right and left against us. Nota michael moore fan
You such a stupid. First of all you must have a little knowledge before you talk about him. You must be rally mad about the true that he brings to us. You been talking for 30 minute with out any sense. Anyway all what he said I believe it's true. And I'm sure your stupid jewish ass don't like to here the true. Thx
@Hotspotnj35 So your happy that your soldiers are being killed? Are you happy that your government was attacked in 9/11? Are you happy at the murder of millions all over the world? Are you glad that this has cost your country the lives of unborn children a life time of debt slavery? Do you believe this behaviour is moral? If so to any of these questions then the answer to the last is your not, you are in fact incredibly evil. How many parents must lose their children before you learn?
I am 20 years old and I come from Belgium, it is safe for me to say that I (talking as in now) am not such a bright person as you are. I have only started watching your clips since today and I can safely say I will continue in doing so. You look at everything from another perspective and analyse it in such a way it makes room for debate in something that already seems legit. I would love to see you make a clip on racism or religion, perhaps you have already done so.
Capitalism as it exists today is far from the dictionary definition. It's a bloody war fought by huge corporate armies, and the average citizen is the "collateral damage"...
haha fuck you, forgive me mr 'private' school for not realeasing a full dissertation on why i think stefan molyneux is a said cunt, im afraid that i neither have the time nor do i give a shit about what you think you pompus stuck up fuck, fuck off and die
Nurturing the growth of children for future generations may prove to be successful (for future generations), but the problems exist for us adults now, so what practical steps do we take?
IT really is through the kids, that's really the best way forward. Indoctrinating kids is the only way the state, or groups like religion, can perpetuate madness.
Whether we like Ron Paul or not, he's making his name through younger voters, his message from inside the state reaches more and is absorbed by more people, he was my gateway to anarchism after-all lol
Ultimately critical thinking brought me to where I am, we need to get that into the curriculum to break more barriers
@shadowgeyser "Sounds like you're attributing Keynesian, Post-Keynesian, and Neo-Keynesian spendonomics to Free market."
Guys, let's people drop the usage of Keynesianism to mean Socialism (or whatever you mean). Keynesianism (usually prefixed neo-) in economics is just the idea that some prices don't adjust instantaneously (like wages or house prices), particularly as a result of monetary deflation, and is the cornerstone of much of modern macroeconomics. That concept has much implications.
@SuffocatedTyrant "Well the system Michael Moore opose is capitalistic without dobt."
But, for instance, he blames the employee life insurance policy some firms had for awhile on "capitalism" when it was them exploiting the American tax system. Likewise, many of his other symptoms are American-specific, and caused by policies opposed by the WSJ, whose contributors would presumably be the first advocates of such policies if they were a representation of what they understand by capitalism.
@SuffocatedTyrant that's one problem with the movie, right? it didn't define capitalism which means different things for different people, given the history of the word: it was first used after all as a pejorative term. I think Moore should have prefixed the term, just like for example the WSJ always refers to "free market capitalism".
I didn't get to watch the movie, but a couple of friends told me about it. One thing that struck me as particularly odd was how WalMart and others were creating life insurance in the name of their employees.
You pay for insurance as an individual in order to pool risk with other individuals: it makes no sense for a huge firm to buy individual insurance. I did some research, and as it turns out, it had nothing to do with what Moore hypothesises: insurance was a way to funnel money tax free!
when u talked about moores dad paying the house off before he was 5 or something, u make a mistake, tht was actually someone else. that was actually the guy he had on there (i dont know his name but he's the guy who always said INCONCEIVABLE in the princess bride)
anyway no matter how beautiful it is to be greedy and aren't employers just wonderful blah yada. the world economy is f**ked and when communism is reintroduced to counter the inevitable instability. Please please lets do it right this time.
Freedomain Radio and Stefan Molyneux provides some of the clearest, logical analysis and critique of our contemporary world I've ever come across in my 45 years on this forsaken rock in space. Thank you for posting!
I thought this was interesting....some good points for sure and some points where you fall too much into saying things are stupid/retarded...or that sort of thing/description, always a turn-off as it achieves no point, however, I enjoyed watching your video & you were specific in a number of other aspects.
it's important....and maybe I misheard..to recognize that the movie uses the term capitalism as it is often commonly used & understood, rather than in reference to a dictionary definition.
@shadowgeyser I doubt that. The kind of things corporations get away with now, despite all the government regulations, is appalling and sickening. Yet the moral backlash that does exist is attacked by capitalists and conservatives (ie, the attacks by the right on global warming science). When ever there's moral out rage for the way minorities, environment etc. are treated a slew of propaganda from corporations & the right obfuscates the facts and impedes progress.
@shadowgeyser The reason why the government needs to make laws and regulate the environment and work conditions is because it's the only entity with the legal authority to tell them to treat their employees and environment correctly, and because the libertarian free market idealism is impractical realistically. Private regulations alone isn't enough to keep things in check.
@shadowgeyser There's too many to name. The environmental problems that are a result of economic forces are too many to name. Not to mention horrible work conditions before gov't agencies like OSHA. Let's see, depletion of resources, collusion and corruption with the government, corporations. There's quite a bit.
When they broke out The Internationale, I started shaking my head and laughing, then I looked around the theater to try to discern who around me was buying this horse shit. Yes, I noticed the same cognitive dissonance between the problems and his 'solution', thanks for expressing it better than I have.
@shadowgeyser It's not Keynesian economics. It's capitalism. The purpose of capitalism is to make as much profit every quarter, month, or what ever time frame any particular business runs on. People are fundamentally irrational and capitalism makes the faulty assumption that people, when left to their own devices, will make the most rational decision. In reality, people make the best decision that makes the most profit short term with no consideration of long term consequences of their actions.
I sense someone projecting. ;-) That's true, but people tend to be the most rational when the costs of their actions accrue to them -- which is why people are at their most irrational in politics and religion. If people are that irrational in their daily economics, then a council of dictators is even a worse alternative: politicians have managed to bankrupt the country with only a few services at their trust.
@UnconformistSheep You don't understand what I mean by irrational. What people think are in their best interest doesn't always end up being accurate or entirely sound. People often have a habit of doing what makes the most sense at the time but without thinking it through. For example, when people drive fast on snowy days. They're fooled by the illusion of being in control. They don't think about the actual physics because of that and endanger themselves and people around them as a result.
@SpazzzDog "For example, when people drive fast on snowy days. They're fooled by the illusion of being in control."
Which is my point that rationality is linked to feedback. The feedback of driving fast in the snow is crashing, and by the time that happens, it's too late to calibrate your behavior.
The lack of immediate and clear empiricism in religion, politics and philosophy is why people that engage in those disciplines are so irrational. You can't shame them through a clear experiment.
@UnconformistSheep Again, people aren't rational. They don't like to blame themselves. They like to blame something other than themselves. The economic crisis wasn't because they were caught up in a fad. It was because of the government. You can blame the government all you want, but at the end of the day it all came back to the irrational choices of the individuals. Additionally, they were rewarded handsomely for fucking up. So yeah.
@shadowgeyser It's unsustainable because it gives free reign to capitalism's inherent propensity to sacrifice long term welfare for short term monetary gain.
@shadowgeyser "Free market" is an unobtainable ideal, just like a true Marxist society is unobtainable. When you tried to correct me about what a real "free market" is you were implying that such an ideal is not subject to the same corrupting forces that makes Marxism impractical.
@shadowgeyser *By definition,* the USSR wasn't Communism. Neither is China nor N. Korea. So why the hell do you call it communism? If definitions can conveniently be ignored on one side then it has to be ignored on the other.
@shadowgeyser Yes, Hayek did not take into account technology. He would have had no idea about the state of technology today. Let me ask you, as technology replaces people, where are the jobs going to come from? Where are people going to acquire purchasing power? Are we all going to be on welfare? As it is now, there are less and less decent paying jobs, and everything is getting more and more expensive. Nor, I believe, does he assess the effect of the monetary system on behavior.
Free market Capitalism ultimately leads to corrupt collusion with the government without any form of checks and balances. Just like Communism ultimately leads to a Totalitarian state if it's not run by the people.
I find it interesting that people even believe that there is such a thing as a "left wing" in the US. From what I can tell, and as you say, the education system (including universities) does little to challenge, and actually supports the mainstream corporate views of the two corporately funded and advertised right wing mainstream political parties: the democrats and republicans. Both benefit from the information including schools. By the way, both parties are equally warlike too.
my Dad paid off his house in Vancouver in the late 60s in 2 years by working on Saturdays. He had a blue collar job. He also paid off his property taxes with one days wages....My mom didn't have to work either.
Can anyone say with a straight face that things have gotten better?
The irony is that Hollywood loves to rail against capitalism, greed & the profit motive, but many of their problems can be traced to the greed of people in Hollywood itself.
oh BS.. there were no lies etc.. it was well researched..what the current situation is what those who love it call it...left wingers ?? who is this fool ?
I like Stefs presentations, even if I don't agree with them all. I think he should get an award just for the Bomb in the Brain series. For instance, I do not share his love of capitalism, and money. I think all isms lead to corruption, and money is the root of that. As long as money is involved, social stratification and corruption will reign. But thanks for sharing your thoughts Stefan.
The way Capitalism has evolved in the past two hundred years, is something that I fear is deeply embedded in the DNA of human beings throughout the world. Of course i accept that enviroment shapes human economies for good or ill, but Ido not want to dwell on the good or evil forces as percieved in classical studies of Capitalism. Because like it or not the banksters rule the world now with the corperate states, in which CAPITALISM is operating at peak technology
@nbm34 Just wanted to point out that, in a society in which bankers and corporations rule, that society is no longer capitalist, it is fascist. Nor are we at peak technology, or peak population growth. Where did you find that information?
@herpiethelovebug The information is before your own eyes if you see the way heavy industries and factories no longer employ large labour forces. That most
Capitalist countries print monet to give to state employees and welfare recipients so they can keep the system afloat. The private sectors of the major economies can not meet the tax demands, of the national debts created, to keep
the banks in bussiness. I say peak population growth because poverty, will
@nbm34 I get ya. And I pretty much agree with you. But it can be prevented. A technocracy, something like the Venus Project, would solve most of our problems. But in general, people are still too ignorant to understand. Its just a choice.
@herpiethelovebug I appreciate your own insights to the issues involved. I do very much agree with you, that the VENUS PROJECT, is something that could
save us. We are all in essence in our cities, trapped in the chaos of present planning controlled by the banksters and retail monopolies etc. Old and very
inefficient .The shift to such TECHNOLOGY I though fear would never be allowed by the present corperate state of the world. We NEED toseriously change peoples mindsets first.. My regards
@herpiethelovebug dude, there will always be "social stratification and corruption" as long as people interact with each other. ;-) Never gone through school? No money involved. Have you ever tried to outcompete some other guy impressing a girl? Have you never hidden facts (or at least be tempted to) from a loved one in order to avoid a fight, or simply to get her in board with your vacation destiny? We consciously and subconsciously manipulate, discriminate, etc each other all the time.
@UnconformistSheep Yes, in our society, thats about right. So the question then becomes where does this behavior come from? Most of it comes from money :) I prefer to follow what science is telling us, and not what people think, because we know most people aren't that knowledgeable. I favor a system like the Venus Project. If everything that can be, is automated, it would free people to do what they want. Way to hard to describe in 500 chars or less.
@herpiethelovebug "Most of it comes from money :) I prefer to follow what science is telling us..."
You prefer to follow science and yet make bold assertions like that. If money, and not scarcity, is at the bottom of conflict, then how come there is conflict between the dawn of man? All other animals engage in fights, rape and wars (and don't use money), yet it is "money" that causes humans to behave in such ways?
@UnconformistSheep Are you asserting that economics is a science? Its a science like theology. Make believe. You are being willfully ignorant if you don't think that money is at the root of MOST of the crime, war, and corruption that plagues this planet. I can cite too many examples of this. Read your paper today, I guarantee most of the crime reported can be directly linked to money. We are not like other animals, in that we can make a choice. That's a pretty weak argument.
Sure, we are, we just have bigger brains. But ignore evo biology then, go with anthropology. human tribes have been engaging in conquest for rape, enslavement and land of other tribes since the dawn of man. There are still hunter gather tribes today: and we've documented cases like men surreptitiously hiding game that they then give to another's man wife in order to get sexual favors. Again, no money involved, only the realities of scarcity.
No, we are not. Other animals don't know what death is. Or understand the world around them to any degree beyond survival. I don't know enough about the history of mankind (no one really does) to dispute your statement, but we are discovering that what we thought was true, is not so. For instance, it turns out the ancient Egyptians did not use slaves to build the pyramids. Lots of societies did not use money.Native Americans for one
@herpiethelovebug "Lots of societies did not use money.Native Americans for one"
Native Americans used shells (of dentalium) as money.
Hierarchal organization does work for small groups and there are benefits to them (hence why people form firms), but it doesn't scale well. Can you imagine a firm being efficient that would employ the entire country, and produce all kinds of stuff? If top-down systems do work well, then it should be profitable for firms to always scale up.
@herpiethelovebug "Are you asserting that economics is a science? Its ... theology."
No, it's a lot like evolutionary biology, but I guess you don't like that discipline either. Science is a bundle of logic and empirics. It's costly to experiment, so we use logic as much as possible to test internal integrate theories and how well they fit with the others. In economics or biology, we need to rely more so in logic: that's why we use models and math for precision. But there's empirics too.
@UnconformistSheep Why would you assume I don't like the theory of evolution? And whats funny is that you point out a flaw of the monetary system in your statement. Its too "costly". We can't advance science because its too costly. Economics is make believe. Entirely. And only with in the institution does it make sense. Most of our laws are created to support it. If you apply logic to it, it becomes obvious that it is detrimental to mankind, not beneficial.
@herpiethelovebug "Read your paper today, I guarantee most of the crime reported can be directly linked to money."
You'll always have fights to see who gets land beach property. There's just not enough to go around. One way to do it is say, whoever builds a beach house first gets to keep it (landstead), another is to have someone deciding who gets to keep what (politics). But you'll always have others engaging in fraud or embelzement or downright theft to try take what belongs to someone else.
@UnconformistSheep There is more than enough to go around. Your entire post here is just a monument to the flaws of the monetary system and the property concept.
typo: A couples of months after we reduce traffic by 50%, that will still _look_ congested. (and we'll have to go to more expense.)
People keep raising their expectations. I was watching the other day an episode of How I Met Your Mother, where Barney lets Lily stay in his place, but when it's time to get out, her response was hilarious. paraphrasing: you got me accustomed to a certain level of comfort, I am not leaving. I think we'll all have experienced that. ;-)
@UnconformistSheep Again, you frame your statements in the environment you know. When I claim money is no longer needed, it goes far beyond what people are accustomed too. Change the environment and people will become accustomed to it. Let me guess, you believe in human nature, right?
@herpietheloveb You guys are like a bad virus, this shit's got to go!
Let's sum up TVP. No proof, no working theory, no model, no cred.
Stop talking like we already have robots that can make robots that can service robots, or that you have a better replacement for the economic calculation problem than price, you don't, so don't even bother. Joseph had a chance to debate Steph, but he pussied out, left some radio host (neil) out to dry, what does that say aobut your movement & its leaders?
@herpiethelovebug You're right it would have been the same, Peter would have no answer, which is why he didn't show up. He doesn't need to explain himself, people still drink the koolaid and he gets his cut.
I'm a lot like Stef, I favor whatever model you, or anyone else wants top use. If you want to build a circle city and try to allocate resources, freely and equally, be my guest. just respect my opting out.
I believe in competing currencies, no monopolies, no force
@GtheMVP I thought Peter addressed Stefs questions quite well in his reply. You seem to think of Peter as the "leader". He is not. I wouldn't care if he never said another word. The idea is still valid, with or without him. There does not need to be a "leader". No one would be forced to do anything. We think that once (if) this system started to happen, people would see the advantages, and would want to be a part of it. If you wanted to "opt" out, you would be free to do so.
@herpiethelovebug "I favor a system like the Venus Project. If everything that can be, is automated, it would free people to do what they want."
Who doesn't? Pretty much everybody favors increased productivity, which is why it is so disheartening to hear about economies shrinking today.
Anyhow, many econ since Keynes have made a persuasive case that if you produce more, people will demand more. e.g. As soon as everybody have Mercedes, girls will only be impressed by Lamborghinis.
@UnconformistSheep This is perhaps true, with in the society we have created and live in now. Our society has created the environment you describe. Everyone wants more, because that is how you are raised. You don't understand the premise of a Resource Based Economy, and how it would effect both the environment and behavior. All money does, regardless of what system regulates it, is create social stratification, and prevent people from such basics as eating (as an extreme example).
@herpiethelovebug "Everyone wants more, because that is how you are raised."
My example isn't just about material stuff. Why do I go to the gym? To impress girls in the beach. How do I impress girls in the beach? If I have better body than the next guy. Why do guys train pickup lines, and buy books on how to handle themselves? A lot of the world is an arms race: the Red Queen hypothesis as biologists put it.
We fight for scarcity stuff: land, the other sex, attention, fame, elections, etc...
@UnconformistSheep Hate to break it to you, but you go to the gym to impress yourself. And again, you are framing your statement with in the current environment. Change the environment, and most of that would become irrelevant.
@herpiethelovebug anyhow, say you can get rid of such arms race contests where every girl wants to wear something nicer than the next girl, and etc. Either way, economics says demand for stuff will still be infinite. As soon as doctors cure cancer, we'll want them to cure some other less and less nefarious disease. A couples of months after we reduce traffic by 50%, that will still congested. Having the stables to sleep in was luxury a couple of centuries back, now we want stuff like water beds.
@UnconformistSheep As soon as doctors find a cure for cancer, there is a good chance we would never see it, as it would be a terrible blow to economics. And who is economics, that says such things as demand for stuff will be infinite. Sounds religious to me. We no longer live in the 18th century.
@herpiethelovebug "[economics] says such things as demand for stuff will be infinite"
Those are indeed mostly speculations by Keynes and Frank (NYTimes). David Friedman, on the other hand, believes, as income increases, we'll sacrifice more and more of it with job flexibility & etc until we'll have mostly a gift economy. (or at least you'll retire very early, or maybe have multiple careers)
@herpiethelovebug The only thing that economists generally believe is that there are two effects to productivity increases: either people choose to produce more and thus consume more (given the incremental benefit), or they choose to produce less and enjoy themselves more (given the sum of benefits). It's called income and substitution effect, respectively.
In the USA pay has been stagnant while benefits have been roaring, so true, it does indicate workers are choosing benefits over higher pay.
@herpiethelovebug you brought up the example of eating. In the 18th century, you'd live most of your life eating one hot meal consisting of potatoes per day. Decay, and many cases of malnutrition were common. Nowadays, most of dentists activity is in fixing aesthetic flaws like crooked teeth. Look at the evolution in communications: from letters to telegraph to radiotelegraph to phones to cellphones to the Internet.
Yesterday's luxury are nowadays basic rights. People will always want more.
@UnconformistSheep I brought up eating because people are starving to death because they don't have the required bits of paper society thinks should be required to eat. I get the feeling you think the country you live in is the entire world. And nothing is a basic "right". In order to have a "right", someone must give it to you.
@herpiethelovebug "You don't understand the premise of a Resource Based Economy"
Me, and every other economists out there. But why don't you fill me in then? What labor saving machines do those guys have in mind exactly, and why don't they keep selling them already (I have been hearing about that Venus project for a few years now and it's been all vaporware)?
To make clear my comments about demand being infinite: I'm glad people are like that, always looking into improving their wellbeing.
@UnconformistSheep I can't explain an RBE properly in 500 characters. Do some research if you care at all. Its all available on the venus project website under the FAQ. And of course economists don't understand, and don't want to understand, it goes against their own agenda to do so. The VP has only been around for a few years, what are you expecting? If you really wanted to improve the well being of everyone on this planet, you would take the time to try to understand the VP.
@herpiethelovebug "I can't explain an RBE properly in 500 characters. Do some research if you care at all."
Okay, I may look some more into that in the future. btw, here's a forum post I wrote about it: (it's mostly a point-by-point commentary on one of the website essays.)
@herpiethelovebug my point is that without money working as the lubricant for the division of labor, we'd still have all kinds of fights and politics involved within the government (or whatever you want to call the organizing agency). And we already work-around potential money fights by, for instance, buying stuff in bundles (like gym membership) instead of paying each thing in separate. But there is no panacea: within the gym, all kinds of political wars ensue over who to hire & etc.
You idiot...when american oil companies sold oil to germany in world war 2 they didn't make money???Ofcourse the people who sell the weapons and the oil to those who kill each other make
Corporate abuse is no reason to refute Capitalism. The free enterprise system built within 200 years the greatest nation on earth. Michael Moore is an obnoxious single view narrow minded factual content revisionist. Capitalism is vital to individual freedom. This nation was primarily built through the efforts of small business. Vast progress in science, medicine, mfg, the standard of living as a whe, etc are a direct result of capitalism.
Why dont you go and fuck yourself, capitalism a love story is just scratching the surface. Fuck left and fuck right: Stop categorising people. This is not about right or left this is about a corrupt society. DONT LISTEN TO THIS GUY. Its only rubish die slow motherfucker
Stef's criticism of the Marxist critique of profit as theft can be used as a criticism of the capitalist critique of govt as theft. Some argue that govt just takes without making anything, but govt management adds value in the same way as business management adds value. You can question what the value is and whether it's worth the price paid. The only disagreement I might have with Stef is that I see no grand distinction b/t govt and business.
@MarmaladeINFP, yes, Stef does argue that government management takes without making anything. However, the important distinction is that it FORCIBLY takes without returning.
In addition, you are also wrong about government management adding value. It is wrong on a logical basis, as well as an emperical basis. Government "management" is typically very heavy handed. It is designed to please voters. Usually, their form of 'management' is a very penal form, to "GET BACK AT THOSE CAPITALISTS!"
If you look at the history of capitalism, there are plenty of examples of corporations FORCIBLY taking without returning. I know the semantic games people like to play by saying coroporations are state institutions, but that is an empty defense. Capitalism, as Stef idealizes, never has existed. It's always easy to criticize reality when you're using an ideal as a standard.
The same argument against govt management applies to corporate management. Both are true or both are false.
You would like to hear a view? Well, I would like if people knew the actual facts of history. Sadly, we don't always get what we want.
If you're seriously interested in the subject of corporate abuse of power, there have been untold numbers of articles and books written about it. Do some research. And there are probably some overview videos right here on Youtube.
To tell you the truth I get rather tired of trying to educate people. If someone doesn't want to do some research to alleviate their own ignorance, I don't see it as my duty to try to educate them. I'm not saying you're necessarily the average Youtube ignoramus, but seriously if you really want to know it isn't difficult to do research. I'll even give you a starting point. My most recent reading about the power abuse of corporations comes from Derrick Jensen's book Culture of Make Believe.
I have respect for Stef in this video. He disagrees with Michael Moore's ideological view, but can see the merits of the film itself. He gives Moore credit for taking on a difficult issue and portraying the ruined lives without flinching. I haven't seen Moore's film and so I have no opinion. I do agree with Stef's criticism of a golden age. So many people on the left and right looking back for a golden age, but they always conveniently ignore the suffering of many in the past.
I'm curious how corporatism can be controlled & free market promoted. As far as I can tell, the only free markets that may have ever existed would be in smallscale isolated hunter-gatherer cultures or it may have existed temporarily in some isolated modern intentional communities. Civilization itself promotes corporatism b/c it promotes the centralizing of power. It's the same whether power is held by the state or a corporation, but w/o the centralization of power civilization would collapse.
@konman001 And owes his whole career to the advancement of his person through film school and subsequently being hired by Universal. The man is a living contradiction.
Hmmm. . . he could be. . . or he is just full of hot air and knows it. He could be blasting capitalism, Attacking George W.Bush and promoting socialist agenda not because he genuinely has strong feelings regarding these things but because he wants to ride on the wave of controversy and people`s feelings so as to make himself alot of money.
@konman001 worked for al gore. Moore is now thousands of times wealthier than he was before leeching off left wing groupies. Has he rendered his wealth over to the hands of those he feels more deserve others'? No.
8:50 overprinting of money? The US prints money only for replacement and to account for population growth. I may understand if Stefan means the FEDs manipulation of the money supply through open market operations, adjustment of the discount rate, and adjustment of the reserve requirement.
Well, I haven't heard a lot of auto commercials praising the wars in the oil-rich regions of the Middle East and Central Asia, but I'm willing to guess where they stand.
Why would an alien assume that "someone is in charge of children's educations" ? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that any intelligent being manages to learn things by themselves ?
@NeroroPuj "Afganistan is a Capitalist country ans so is the rest of the world (except cuba)"
You mean Afghanistan prior to invasion or after?
Anyhow, it is my understanding, the main limitator of growth in developing economies is protectionism and regime uncertainty. But you're right, there is a general move towards more open and market tolerant economies, which is why, for instance, people living in the equivalent of a $1 US a day has fallen by half since 1981 (WB).
another intellectual masturbation that deviates from the main root cause of it all: the Feds. Talk about the Federal Reserve Board and its direct role in the current economic and financial crisis. Hello. I am only a high school grad. You probably, sir, has a PHD. You can simplify.
If cost my parents $40,000. to pay for my education in finance and through your generous pedantry and excellent understanding I finally understand my major.
3. Public schools are hell-bent on brainwashing people to follow the state.
There is some truth to this - the Prussian education model (which the US followed) has a strong emphasis on obedience. This is notunique to the public system. I have attended both private and public institutions and my experience is that private schools are inherently conservative, status-quo and quick to stamp out any initiative/free thinking. The only exception would be the Steiner/Waldorf models and certain teachers.
Advertisements and popular media don't promote the free market/Capitalism.
Come ON! Haven't you watched the OC? Dynasty? James Bond? There are so many shows and movie characters that glorify extravagant, consumerist lifestyles.
Advertisements promote the unrelenting consumerism which is necessary to sustain the constant growth scenario which almost any mainstream Capitalist theorist like Friedman would support.
Capitalism has nothing to do with a consumer lifestyle, or buying things, but rather the principle that we should be free to trade with each other without the initiation of force...
No, you cannot trade slaves, because that requires the initiation of force to imprison the slaves - and do you think that governments do not trade weapons?
So under your definition there should be no regulations to stop destructive products/services? The only limitation is that coercion shouldn't be used in their sale?
I believe that we should not initiate violence to solve complex problems such as environmentalism and the protection of consumers, and if you are interested at all in my proposed solutions, I have a free book on my website called Practical Anarchy that might be of interest to you... :)
I wasn't saying we should use violence to solve those problems.
I'm sorry but I think the use of market/buyer-seller mechanisms inevitably lead to injustice and oppression, creating hierarchies of wealth/power which make any form of Anarchy impossible. Thanks for the offer but I think you're looking in the wrong direction for solutions.
If I can return the favor, check out 'Economic Justice and Democracy' by Robin Hahnel - it's one of the strongest Anarchist economic models I've seen.
Alternatively do a search for 'Participatory Economics on wikipedia :)
@stonem001 "check out 'Economic Justice and Democracy'"
Sounds interesting... But I imagine most ppl here have better uses for their time than to go read a book recommended by a total stranger in the internet. Would you like to expand on what it is about?
It seems its about partnerships. I am trained in econ. Do you know standard explanations like why we see workers diversifying their investment rather than investing in their own firm? If so, tell me whether the book addresses such points. thx
So you want to get rid of buyers and sellers? In effect you are going to force people not to trade anymore? Sounds violent to me. And who is going to impose such regulations?
Advertisement is product of a blatantly stupid society my friend. Not the product of free market. Corporations wouldn't even exist in a free market society, considering they are not human beings. Corporations are monstrosities designed by the state, for the elite, worked by the people.
@stonem001 "Advertisements promote (...) the constant growth scenario which almost any mainstream Capitalist theorist like Friedman would support."
Advertisement is a way to sell a product, an idea, etc, within proper boundaries it's fine. Just like I imagine you exercise, dress well, etc to advertise your potential as a mate. ;-)
I'm not sure why you say productivity growth follows consumption: I'd imagine not consuming and investing would be the path to growth. What do you have in mind?
Ok...I couldn't bring myself to sit through the whole of this but let me give some quick impressions on some points you make:
1. 'Capitalism' only refers to the exchange of goods and services without duress.
Even if one accepts this definition (which is a gross simplification/misrepresentation of Capitalist theory), it is inevitable that private ownership without regulation results in monopolization and wealth inequality - what we have today.
this guy say kapitalism is just freedom of free trade... slavery to ? lol this guy diesnt kow much but not his fault really.. socialism has worked better than kapitalism for a very long time in sweden... his illusion is that people will sit down and be quiet while they get fired from their job so rich get richer.
Just wanted to add that in this case it is the Free Market helping to decide policy. That is why we do need government control over the influence and power of corporations to influence policy against the will of the people. It is not government that is inherently evil. It is the people in power and their connection to corporations that is dangerous.
Libertarianism needs to recognize this as they seem to always think government control is always ill willed.
Sorry, but yes people are profiting off war! They are a small minority but they are an influential group with ties to both parties although mostly republican.
Also many people in government and wealthy individuals own stock in these weapons companies, and they constantly need snacks to make money so they prolong conflicts ie Vietnam, Iraq afghanistan, while the people want out. So yes!! The Free market does decide war. I like this speaker, but he is so smug thinking he's always right.
I don't believe it is the state that is profiting unless you mean the people in power who have financial connections to the military related corporations. (Weapons manufacturers, troops support ie. Halliburton, KBR and private civilian contractors.)
The people in power such as Obama and Bush had their campaigns financed by Wall street interests who have a desire to keep us in war as it is profitable to these business interests and their stockholders. Sorry but it's simply a fact.
@AVincent2 "Also many people in government and wealthy individuals own stock in these weapons companies, and they constantly need snacks to make money so they prolong conflicts ie Vietnam, Iraq afghanistan, while the people want out."
Politicians will find all kinds of excuses to pass their favorite programs and help their friends. Most people oppose Obamacare and the bailoits (thus the congress turnover), but look at how good that has done them.
I think you alluded to the labour theory of value. This theory is also wrong. The Austrian view I believe is that the price of things is not how much labour they have but the subjective value judgment of the buyer, or the laws of supply and demand. The only reason that you make those $5 dollars is that you are able to sell it at a price higher than costs. The entrepreneur is not a worker, in that he does not 'deserves' his profit, he just finds opportunity.
Left wingers and right wingers belong to the same vulture/predator. THe illusion is that there is a difference. LOOK at all the similarities. Both right wing and left wing have big government, big taxes, big war... No difference. Any one who thinks there is a difference is deluded. For someone to think that people don't make money off war...? We need more hell on earth before our eyes may open up. Right, left, right,left.... The elite are using right and left against us. Nota michael moore fan
enkigilgamesh 2 months ago
You such a stupid. First of all you must have a little knowledge before you talk about him. You must be rally mad about the true that he brings to us. You been talking for 30 minute with out any sense. Anyway all what he said I believe it's true. And I'm sure your stupid jewish ass don't like to here the true. Thx
Hotspotnj35 4 months ago
@Hotspotnj35 So your happy that your soldiers are being killed? Are you happy that your government was attacked in 9/11? Are you happy at the murder of millions all over the world? Are you glad that this has cost your country the lives of unborn children a life time of debt slavery? Do you believe this behaviour is moral? If so to any of these questions then the answer to the last is your not, you are in fact incredibly evil. How many parents must lose their children before you learn?
frostyuk2007 4 months ago in playlist More videos from stefbot
poor, stupid and a disgrace!
laxelk 5 months ago
The reason housing is expensive in Toronto is because the market didn't crash, thanks to REGULATIONS.
axekicker78 5 months ago
Great clip, keep it up. I do enjoy Moore's work but also know he gets off the wall sometimes.
myfist01 7 months ago
I am 20 years old and I come from Belgium, it is safe for me to say that I (talking as in now) am not such a bright person as you are. I have only started watching your clips since today and I can safely say I will continue in doing so. You look at everything from another perspective and analyse it in such a way it makes room for debate in something that already seems legit. I would love to see you make a clip on racism or religion, perhaps you have already done so.
VillainTowN 9 months ago
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VillainTowN 9 months ago
Capitalism as it exists today is far from the dictionary definition. It's a bloody war fought by huge corporate armies, and the average citizen is the "collateral damage"...
jerico641 9 months ago
haha fuck you, forgive me mr 'private' school for not realeasing a full dissertation on why i think stefan molyneux is a said cunt, im afraid that i neither have the time nor do i give a shit about what you think you pompus stuck up fuck, fuck off and die
MrThericemusic 10 months ago
Nurturing the growth of children for future generations may prove to be successful (for future generations), but the problems exist for us adults now, so what practical steps do we take?
GMPresents 10 months ago
This guy's about 40 IQ points less bright than MM.
k37x 10 months ago
@k37x and you are 100% less bright than my left nut
pretorious700 10 months ago
@k37x
You got it backwards!
mmflint is a economically retarded!
Salvysahagun 7 months ago
This man is a complete cunt
MrThericemusic 10 months ago
@MrThericemusic very cogent examination, let me guess, public school education?
pretorious700 10 months ago
My problem with any kind of market (even a free market) is that the main focus is profit.
nuksucow1983 10 months ago
Good stuff Steft, thanks for posting. Keep up the good work.
JRD123456 11 months ago
IT really is through the kids, that's really the best way forward. Indoctrinating kids is the only way the state, or groups like religion, can perpetuate madness.
Whether we like Ron Paul or not, he's making his name through younger voters, his message from inside the state reaches more and is absorbed by more people, he was my gateway to anarchism after-all lol
Ultimately critical thinking brought me to where I am, we need to get that into the curriculum to break more barriers
GtheMVP 11 months ago
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@shadowgeyser "Sounds like you're attributing Keynesian, Post-Keynesian, and Neo-Keynesian spendonomics to Free market."
Guys, let's people drop the usage of Keynesianism to mean Socialism (or whatever you mean). Keynesianism (usually prefixed neo-) in economics is just the idea that some prices don't adjust instantaneously (like wages or house prices), particularly as a result of monetary deflation, and is the cornerstone of much of modern macroeconomics. That concept has much implications.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
YOU NEED to make a documentary Stefan! A short treatise on volunteerism for the masses.
numbah1pinoy 1 year ago
Screw philosophy, I'm devoting my life to botany so I can create the fantasy-geyser goody tree.
thegillotine09 1 year ago
Michael Moore: A fat story
SecularNumanist 1 year ago
@SuffocatedTyrant "Well the system Michael Moore opose is capitalistic without dobt."
But, for instance, he blames the employee life insurance policy some firms had for awhile on "capitalism" when it was them exploiting the American tax system. Likewise, many of his other symptoms are American-specific, and caused by policies opposed by the WSJ, whose contributors would presumably be the first advocates of such policies if they were a representation of what they understand by capitalism.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@SuffocatedTyrant that's one problem with the movie, right? it didn't define capitalism which means different things for different people, given the history of the word: it was first used after all as a pejorative term. I think Moore should have prefixed the term, just like for example the WSJ always refers to "free market capitalism".
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
I didn't get to watch the movie, but a couple of friends told me about it. One thing that struck me as particularly odd was how WalMart and others were creating life insurance in the name of their employees.
You pay for insurance as an individual in order to pool risk with other individuals: it makes no sense for a huge firm to buy individual insurance. I did some research, and as it turns out, it had nothing to do with what Moore hypothesises: insurance was a way to funnel money tax free!
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
when u talked about moores dad paying the house off before he was 5 or something, u make a mistake, tht was actually someone else. that was actually the guy he had on there (i dont know his name but he's the guy who always said INCONCEIVABLE in the princess bride)
homevidman1000 1 year ago
Moore, like many, confuses capitalism with corporatism.
pretorious700 1 year ago
anyway no matter how beautiful it is to be greedy and aren't employers just wonderful blah yada. the world economy is f**ked and when communism is reintroduced to counter the inevitable instability. Please please lets do it right this time.
Gallagher101162 1 year ago
Freedom is Capitalism
Salvysahagun 1 year ago
@Salvysahagun capitalism is oppression.
BuecherFuerAlle 1 year ago
@BuecherFuerAlle
No its freedom
it allows one person to do as he wishes so long as he does no harm to another.
Its one person exchanging ones good or service for another persons good or service and/or money
That is the most free and moral society in the world
Salvysahagun 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Freedomain Radio and Stefan Molyneux provides some of the clearest, logical analysis and critique of our contemporary world I've ever come across in my 45 years on this forsaken rock in space. Thank you for posting!
eyejudgeeverything 1 year ago
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eyejudgeeverything 1 year ago
I thought this was interesting....some good points for sure and some points where you fall too much into saying things are stupid/retarded...or that sort of thing/description, always a turn-off as it achieves no point, however, I enjoyed watching your video & you were specific in a number of other aspects.
it's important....and maybe I misheard..to recognize that the movie uses the term capitalism as it is often commonly used & understood, rather than in reference to a dictionary definition.
MsAliciaCrowder 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser I doubt that. The kind of things corporations get away with now, despite all the government regulations, is appalling and sickening. Yet the moral backlash that does exist is attacked by capitalists and conservatives (ie, the attacks by the right on global warming science). When ever there's moral out rage for the way minorities, environment etc. are treated a slew of propaganda from corporations & the right obfuscates the facts and impedes progress.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser The reason why the government needs to make laws and regulate the environment and work conditions is because it's the only entity with the legal authority to tell them to treat their employees and environment correctly, and because the libertarian free market idealism is impractical realistically. Private regulations alone isn't enough to keep things in check.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser There's too many to name. The environmental problems that are a result of economic forces are too many to name. Not to mention horrible work conditions before gov't agencies like OSHA. Let's see, depletion of resources, collusion and corruption with the government, corporations. There's quite a bit.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
This video undermines Mr Moores very important message - you're getting bombed why????????????? - Government... Delete this vid plz - Peace!
MrSirLagalot 1 year ago
When they broke out The Internationale, I started shaking my head and laughing, then I looked around the theater to try to discern who around me was buying this horse shit. Yes, I noticed the same cognitive dissonance between the problems and his 'solution', thanks for expressing it better than I have.
TreachMarkets 1 year ago
Actually, if you watch Michael's film carefully, he does explain capitalism. So, this video is lying.
elenasupergirl 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser It's not Keynesian economics. It's capitalism. The purpose of capitalism is to make as much profit every quarter, month, or what ever time frame any particular business runs on. People are fundamentally irrational and capitalism makes the faulty assumption that people, when left to their own devices, will make the most rational decision. In reality, people make the best decision that makes the most profit short term with no consideration of long term consequences of their actions.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@SpazzzDog "People are fundamentally irrational"
I sense someone projecting. ;-) That's true, but people tend to be the most rational when the costs of their actions accrue to them -- which is why people are at their most irrational in politics and religion. If people are that irrational in their daily economics, then a council of dictators is even a worse alternative: politicians have managed to bankrupt the country with only a few services at their trust.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep You don't understand what I mean by irrational. What people think are in their best interest doesn't always end up being accurate or entirely sound. People often have a habit of doing what makes the most sense at the time but without thinking it through. For example, when people drive fast on snowy days. They're fooled by the illusion of being in control. They don't think about the actual physics because of that and endanger themselves and people around them as a result.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@SpazzzDog "For example, when people drive fast on snowy days. They're fooled by the illusion of being in control."
Which is my point that rationality is linked to feedback. The feedback of driving fast in the snow is crashing, and by the time that happens, it's too late to calibrate your behavior.
The lack of immediate and clear empiricism in religion, politics and philosophy is why people that engage in those disciplines are so irrational. You can't shame them through a clear experiment.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep Again, people aren't rational. They don't like to blame themselves. They like to blame something other than themselves. The economic crisis wasn't because they were caught up in a fad. It was because of the government. You can blame the government all you want, but at the end of the day it all came back to the irrational choices of the individuals. Additionally, they were rewarded handsomely for fucking up. So yeah.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser It's unsustainable because it gives free reign to capitalism's inherent propensity to sacrifice long term welfare for short term monetary gain.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser "Free market" is an unobtainable ideal, just like a true Marxist society is unobtainable. When you tried to correct me about what a real "free market" is you were implying that such an ideal is not subject to the same corrupting forces that makes Marxism impractical.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser My whole point was about that double standard. I don't know why you replied to me if you're only going to complain about it!
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser I'm speaking in generalities. The people who criticize communism b/c of China and USSR don't apply the same standards to capitalism.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser *By definition,* the USSR wasn't Communism. Neither is China nor N. Korea. So why the hell do you call it communism? If definitions can conveniently be ignored on one side then it has to be ignored on the other.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@shadowgeyser Yes, Hayek did not take into account technology. He would have had no idea about the state of technology today. Let me ask you, as technology replaces people, where are the jobs going to come from? Where are people going to acquire purchasing power? Are we all going to be on welfare? As it is now, there are less and less decent paying jobs, and everything is getting more and more expensive. Nor, I believe, does he assess the effect of the monetary system on behavior.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
"I saw it on film." hahaha
tetrahydroscope 1 year ago
Free market Capitalism ultimately leads to corrupt collusion with the government without any form of checks and balances. Just like Communism ultimately leads to a Totalitarian state if it's not run by the people.
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
@SpazzzDog who ran communism? reptilians?
Emil246 1 year ago
@Emil246 No you idiot. "The people" as opposed to a totalitarian ruler (ie, Stalin).
SpazzzDog 1 year ago
I find it interesting that people even believe that there is such a thing as a "left wing" in the US. From what I can tell, and as you say, the education system (including universities) does little to challenge, and actually supports the mainstream corporate views of the two corporately funded and advertised right wing mainstream political parties: the democrats and republicans. Both benefit from the information including schools. By the way, both parties are equally warlike too.
DerangedRanger1 1 year ago
my Dad paid off his house in Vancouver in the late 60s in 2 years by working on Saturdays. He had a blue collar job. He also paid off his property taxes with one days wages....My mom didn't have to work either.
Can anyone say with a straight face that things have gotten better?
zeusvalentine 1 year ago
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The irony is that Hollywood loves to rail against capitalism, greed & the profit motive, but many of their problems can be traced to the greed of people in Hollywood itself.
BlackRepublican2010 1 year ago
STOP THE FED!!!!!
Free4801 1 year ago
oh BS.. there were no lies etc.. it was well researched..what the current situation is what those who love it call it...left wingers ?? who is this fool ?
xadam2dudex 1 year ago
Michael Moore is actually disgusted with Corporate Fascism and NOT with Capitlalism. We do NOT have capitalism today!
DutchsMaria 1 year ago
what, then is the non-violent solution to violence illustrated in the documentary?
empraptorg 1 year ago
I like Stefs presentations, even if I don't agree with them all. I think he should get an award just for the Bomb in the Brain series. For instance, I do not share his love of capitalism, and money. I think all isms lead to corruption, and money is the root of that. As long as money is involved, social stratification and corruption will reign. But thanks for sharing your thoughts Stefan.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago 2
@herpiethelovebug Thanks so much! :) I also disagree with myself sometimes, so I totally get where you're coming from.
stefbot 1 year ago 4
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SecularNumanist 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug -I couldnt have said it better myself.
m0kn33marc 1 year ago
The way Capitalism has evolved in the past two hundred years, is something that I fear is deeply embedded in the DNA of human beings throughout the world. Of course i accept that enviroment shapes human economies for good or ill, but Ido not want to dwell on the good or evil forces as percieved in classical studies of Capitalism. Because like it or not the banksters rule the world now with the corperate states, in which CAPITALISM is operating at peak technology
and peak population growths .
nbm34 1 year ago
@nbm34 Just wanted to point out that, in a society in which bankers and corporations rule, that society is no longer capitalist, it is fascist. Nor are we at peak technology, or peak population growth. Where did you find that information?
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug You are correct about the FACIST states we live in,and as
Orwell pointed out Facism does not always appear in Jackboots. Are you saying
you do not believe you live in such a country.? The prices of oil should indicate
that scarcity and food shortages throughout the world are scientific facts. The
matter of peak Technology is that the means of production, have in the present
age, have ended the need for mass labour, so this peak is evident particularly
in advanced economies.
nbm34 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug The information is before your own eyes if you see the way heavy industries and factories no longer employ large labour forces. That most
Capitalist countries print monet to give to state employees and welfare recipients so they can keep the system afloat. The private sectors of the major economies can not meet the tax demands, of the national debts created, to keep
the banks in bussiness. I say peak population growth because poverty, will
cause the deaths of many in future.
nbm34 1 year ago
@nbm34 I get ya. And I pretty much agree with you. But it can be prevented. A technocracy, something like the Venus Project, would solve most of our problems. But in general, people are still too ignorant to understand. Its just a choice.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
Capitalism is at a stage now of PEAK TECHNOLOGY and PEAK POPULATION GROWTH. This is also related to finate resources as for example in rare earth
materials needed for future growth in Technology. It is evident that the Capitalist
system can no longer sustain the growing unemployed and displacement of people from the jobs market due ti technology. It is a myth that so called new
industries will evolve on the scale of mass labour needed as in the early industrial ages,Capitalism will die naturaly
nbm34 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug I appreciate your own insights to the issues involved. I do very much agree with you, that the VENUS PROJECT, is something that could
save us. We are all in essence in our cities, trapped in the chaos of present planning controlled by the banksters and retail monopolies etc. Old and very
inefficient .The shift to such TECHNOLOGY I though fear would never be allowed by the present corperate state of the world. We NEED toseriously change peoples mindsets first.. My regards
nbm34 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug dude, there will always be "social stratification and corruption" as long as people interact with each other. ;-) Never gone through school? No money involved. Have you ever tried to outcompete some other guy impressing a girl? Have you never hidden facts (or at least be tempted to) from a loved one in order to avoid a fight, or simply to get her in board with your vacation destiny? We consciously and subconsciously manipulate, discriminate, etc each other all the time.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep Yes, in our society, thats about right. So the question then becomes where does this behavior come from? Most of it comes from money :) I prefer to follow what science is telling us, and not what people think, because we know most people aren't that knowledgeable. I favor a system like the Venus Project. If everything that can be, is automated, it would free people to do what they want. Way to hard to describe in 500 chars or less.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug "Most of it comes from money :) I prefer to follow what science is telling us..."
You prefer to follow science and yet make bold assertions like that. If money, and not scarcity, is at the bottom of conflict, then how come there is conflict between the dawn of man? All other animals engage in fights, rape and wars (and don't use money), yet it is "money" that causes humans to behave in such ways?
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep Are you asserting that economics is a science? Its a science like theology. Make believe. You are being willfully ignorant if you don't think that money is at the root of MOST of the crime, war, and corruption that plagues this planet. I can cite too many examples of this. Read your paper today, I guarantee most of the crime reported can be directly linked to money. We are not like other animals, in that we can make a choice. That's a pretty weak argument.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug "We are not like other animals"
Sure, we are, we just have bigger brains. But ignore evo biology then, go with anthropology. human tribes have been engaging in conquest for rape, enslavement and land of other tribes since the dawn of man. There are still hunter gather tribes today: and we've documented cases like men surreptitiously hiding game that they then give to another's man wife in order to get sexual favors. Again, no money involved, only the realities of scarcity.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep "Sure, we are, we just have bigger brains."
No, we are not. Other animals don't know what death is. Or understand the world around them to any degree beyond survival. I don't know enough about the history of mankind (no one really does) to dispute your statement, but we are discovering that what we thought was true, is not so. For instance, it turns out the ancient Egyptians did not use slaves to build the pyramids. Lots of societies did not use money.Native Americans for one
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug "Lots of societies did not use money.Native Americans for one"
Native Americans used shells (of dentalium) as money.
Hierarchal organization does work for small groups and there are benefits to them (hence why people form firms), but it doesn't scale well. Can you imagine a firm being efficient that would employ the entire country, and produce all kinds of stuff? If top-down systems do work well, then it should be profitable for firms to always scale up.
UnconformistSheep 11 months ago
@herpiethelovebug "Are you asserting that economics is a science? Its ... theology."
No, it's a lot like evolutionary biology, but I guess you don't like that discipline either. Science is a bundle of logic and empirics. It's costly to experiment, so we use logic as much as possible to test internal integrate theories and how well they fit with the others. In economics or biology, we need to rely more so in logic: that's why we use models and math for precision. But there's empirics too.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep Why would you assume I don't like the theory of evolution? And whats funny is that you point out a flaw of the monetary system in your statement. Its too "costly". We can't advance science because its too costly. Economics is make believe. Entirely. And only with in the institution does it make sense. Most of our laws are created to support it. If you apply logic to it, it becomes obvious that it is detrimental to mankind, not beneficial.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug "Read your paper today, I guarantee most of the crime reported can be directly linked to money."
You'll always have fights to see who gets land beach property. There's just not enough to go around. One way to do it is say, whoever builds a beach house first gets to keep it (landstead), another is to have someone deciding who gets to keep what (politics). But you'll always have others engaging in fraud or embelzement or downright theft to try take what belongs to someone else.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep There is more than enough to go around. Your entire post here is just a monument to the flaws of the monetary system and the property concept.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug
typo: A couples of months after we reduce traffic by 50%, that will still _look_ congested. (and we'll have to go to more expense.)
People keep raising their expectations. I was watching the other day an episode of How I Met Your Mother, where Barney lets Lily stay in his place, but when it's time to get out, her response was hilarious. paraphrasing: you got me accustomed to a certain level of comfort, I am not leaving. I think we'll all have experienced that. ;-)
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep Again, you frame your statements in the environment you know. When I claim money is no longer needed, it goes far beyond what people are accustomed too. Change the environment and people will become accustomed to it. Let me guess, you believe in human nature, right?
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpietheloveb You guys are like a bad virus, this shit's got to go!
Let's sum up TVP. No proof, no working theory, no model, no cred.
Stop talking like we already have robots that can make robots that can service robots, or that you have a better replacement for the economic calculation problem than price, you don't, so don't even bother. Joseph had a chance to debate Steph, but he pussied out, left some radio host (neil) out to dry, what does that say aobut your movement & its leaders?
GtheMVP 11 months ago
@GtheMVP Who cares? It would have been the same argument. What economic model do you favor?
herpiethelovebug 11 months ago
@herpiethelovebug You're right it would have been the same, Peter would have no answer, which is why he didn't show up. He doesn't need to explain himself, people still drink the koolaid and he gets his cut.
I'm a lot like Stef, I favor whatever model you, or anyone else wants top use. If you want to build a circle city and try to allocate resources, freely and equally, be my guest. just respect my opting out.
I believe in competing currencies, no monopolies, no force
GtheMVP 11 months ago
@GtheMVP I thought Peter addressed Stefs questions quite well in his reply. You seem to think of Peter as the "leader". He is not. I wouldn't care if he never said another word. The idea is still valid, with or without him. There does not need to be a "leader". No one would be forced to do anything. We think that once (if) this system started to happen, people would see the advantages, and would want to be a part of it. If you wanted to "opt" out, you would be free to do so.
herpiethelovebug 11 months ago
@GtheMVP in a free market, can there still be billionaires?
nuksucow1983 10 months ago
@herpiethelovebug "I favor a system like the Venus Project. If everything that can be, is automated, it would free people to do what they want."
Who doesn't? Pretty much everybody favors increased productivity, which is why it is so disheartening to hear about economies shrinking today.
Anyhow, many econ since Keynes have made a persuasive case that if you produce more, people will demand more. e.g. As soon as everybody have Mercedes, girls will only be impressed by Lamborghinis.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep This is perhaps true, with in the society we have created and live in now. Our society has created the environment you describe. Everyone wants more, because that is how you are raised. You don't understand the premise of a Resource Based Economy, and how it would effect both the environment and behavior. All money does, regardless of what system regulates it, is create social stratification, and prevent people from such basics as eating (as an extreme example).
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug "Everyone wants more, because that is how you are raised."
My example isn't just about material stuff. Why do I go to the gym? To impress girls in the beach. How do I impress girls in the beach? If I have better body than the next guy. Why do guys train pickup lines, and buy books on how to handle themselves? A lot of the world is an arms race: the Red Queen hypothesis as biologists put it.
We fight for scarcity stuff: land, the other sex, attention, fame, elections, etc...
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep Hate to break it to you, but you go to the gym to impress yourself. And again, you are framing your statement with in the current environment. Change the environment, and most of that would become irrelevant.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug anyhow, say you can get rid of such arms race contests where every girl wants to wear something nicer than the next girl, and etc. Either way, economics says demand for stuff will still be infinite. As soon as doctors cure cancer, we'll want them to cure some other less and less nefarious disease. A couples of months after we reduce traffic by 50%, that will still congested. Having the stables to sleep in was luxury a couple of centuries back, now we want stuff like water beds.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep As soon as doctors find a cure for cancer, there is a good chance we would never see it, as it would be a terrible blow to economics. And who is economics, that says such things as demand for stuff will be infinite. Sounds religious to me. We no longer live in the 18th century.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug "[economics] says such things as demand for stuff will be infinite"
Those are indeed mostly speculations by Keynes and Frank (NYTimes). David Friedman, on the other hand, believes, as income increases, we'll sacrifice more and more of it with job flexibility & etc until we'll have mostly a gift economy. (or at least you'll retire very early, or maybe have multiple careers)
UnconformistSheep 11 months ago
@herpiethelovebug The only thing that economists generally believe is that there are two effects to productivity increases: either people choose to produce more and thus consume more (given the incremental benefit), or they choose to produce less and enjoy themselves more (given the sum of benefits). It's called income and substitution effect, respectively.
In the USA pay has been stagnant while benefits have been roaring, so true, it does indicate workers are choosing benefits over higher pay.
UnconformistSheep 11 months ago
@herpiethelovebug you brought up the example of eating. In the 18th century, you'd live most of your life eating one hot meal consisting of potatoes per day. Decay, and many cases of malnutrition were common. Nowadays, most of dentists activity is in fixing aesthetic flaws like crooked teeth. Look at the evolution in communications: from letters to telegraph to radiotelegraph to phones to cellphones to the Internet.
Yesterday's luxury are nowadays basic rights. People will always want more.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep I brought up eating because people are starving to death because they don't have the required bits of paper society thinks should be required to eat. I get the feeling you think the country you live in is the entire world. And nothing is a basic "right". In order to have a "right", someone must give it to you.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
@herpiethelovebug "You don't understand the premise of a Resource Based Economy"
Me, and every other economists out there. But why don't you fill me in then? What labor saving machines do those guys have in mind exactly, and why don't they keep selling them already (I have been hearing about that Venus project for a few years now and it's been all vaporware)?
To make clear my comments about demand being infinite: I'm glad people are like that, always looking into improving their wellbeing.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
@UnconformistSheep I can't explain an RBE properly in 500 characters. Do some research if you care at all. Its all available on the venus project website under the FAQ. And of course economists don't understand, and don't want to understand, it goes against their own agenda to do so. The VP has only been around for a few years, what are you expecting? If you really wanted to improve the well being of everyone on this planet, you would take the time to try to understand the VP.
herpiethelovebug 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@herpiethelovebug "I can't explain an RBE properly in 500 characters. Do some research if you care at all."
Okay, I may look some more into that in the future. btw, here's a forum post I wrote about it: (it's mostly a point-by-point commentary on one of the website essays.)
tinyurl dot com/4sbzdj7
UnconformistSheep 11 months ago
@herpiethelovebug my point is that without money working as the lubricant for the division of labor, we'd still have all kinds of fights and politics involved within the government (or whatever you want to call the organizing agency). And we already work-around potential money fights by, for instance, buying stuff in bundles (like gym membership) instead of paying each thing in separate. But there is no panacea: within the gym, all kinds of political wars ensue over who to hire & etc.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
You idiot...when american oil companies sold oil to germany in world war 2 they didn't make money???Ofcourse the people who sell the weapons and the oil to those who kill each other make
AtanasovPeter 1 year ago
fail
ProfMike789 1 year ago
Corporate abuse is no reason to refute Capitalism. The free enterprise system built within 200 years the greatest nation on earth. Michael Moore is an obnoxious single view narrow minded factual content revisionist. Capitalism is vital to individual freedom. This nation was primarily built through the efforts of small business. Vast progress in science, medicine, mfg, the standard of living as a whe, etc are a direct result of capitalism.
mvies77 1 year ago
How many lies are you going to tell Stefan? No war profiteers? No defense industry? No oil interests in Afghanistan?
Get real. Big business interests are the ONLY reasons we are at war.
AlQaedaAgent 1 year ago
stop paying them then. Oh wait, you're not allowed to :P
martinmont1 1 year ago
Why dont you go and fuck yourself, capitalism a love story is just scratching the surface. Fuck left and fuck right: Stop categorising people. This is not about right or left this is about a corrupt society. DONT LISTEN TO THIS GUY. Its only rubish die slow motherfucker
KnugenOfSweden 1 year ago
Stef's criticism of the Marxist critique of profit as theft can be used as a criticism of the capitalist critique of govt as theft. Some argue that govt just takes without making anything, but govt management adds value in the same way as business management adds value. You can question what the value is and whether it's worth the price paid. The only disagreement I might have with Stef is that I see no grand distinction b/t govt and business.
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago
@MarmaladeINFP, yes, Stef does argue that government management takes without making anything. However, the important distinction is that it FORCIBLY takes without returning.
In addition, you are also wrong about government management adding value. It is wrong on a logical basis, as well as an emperical basis. Government "management" is typically very heavy handed. It is designed to please voters. Usually, their form of 'management' is a very penal form, to "GET BACK AT THOSE CAPITALISTS!"
nurbSoldier 1 year ago 2
If you look at the history of capitalism, there are plenty of examples of corporations FORCIBLY taking without returning. I know the semantic games people like to play by saying coroporations are state institutions, but that is an empty defense. Capitalism, as Stef idealizes, never has existed. It's always easy to criticize reality when you're using an ideal as a standard.
The same argument against govt management applies to corporate management. Both are true or both are false.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
"If you look at the history of capitalism, there are plenty of examples of corporations FORCIBLY taking without returning. "
I would like to hear a view.
sweatytoothmadman 1 year ago
You would like to hear a view? Well, I would like if people knew the actual facts of history. Sadly, we don't always get what we want.
If you're seriously interested in the subject of corporate abuse of power, there have been untold numbers of articles and books written about it. Do some research. And there are probably some overview videos right here on Youtube.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
Meant to say a few.
sweatytoothmadman 1 year ago
To tell you the truth I get rather tired of trying to educate people. If someone doesn't want to do some research to alleviate their own ignorance, I don't see it as my duty to try to educate them. I'm not saying you're necessarily the average Youtube ignoramus, but seriously if you really want to know it isn't difficult to do research. I'll even give you a starting point. My most recent reading about the power abuse of corporations comes from Derrick Jensen's book Culture of Make Believe.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
If you're interested in the history of corporations in the US, a good documentary is The Corporation.
MarmaladeINFP 1 year ago
I have respect for Stef in this video. He disagrees with Michael Moore's ideological view, but can see the merits of the film itself. He gives Moore credit for taking on a difficult issue and portraying the ruined lives without flinching. I haven't seen Moore's film and so I have no opinion. I do agree with Stef's criticism of a golden age. So many people on the left and right looking back for a golden age, but they always conveniently ignore the suffering of many in the past.
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago
I'm curious how corporatism can be controlled & free market promoted. As far as I can tell, the only free markets that may have ever existed would be in smallscale isolated hunter-gatherer cultures or it may have existed temporarily in some isolated modern intentional communities. Civilization itself promotes corporatism b/c it promotes the centralizing of power. It's the same whether power is held by the state or a corporation, but w/o the centralization of power civilization would collapse.
MarmaladeINFP 2 years ago
Michael Moore is one of the BIGGEST capitalists out there - he made tens of millions off the movie.
konman001 2 years ago
@konman001 And owes his whole career to the advancement of his person through film school and subsequently being hired by Universal. The man is a living contradiction.
Xtro2005 1 year ago
Hmmm. . . he could be. . . or he is just full of hot air and knows it. He could be blasting capitalism, Attacking George W.Bush and promoting socialist agenda not because he genuinely has strong feelings regarding these things but because he wants to ride on the wave of controversy and people`s feelings so as to make himself alot of money.
konman001 1 year ago
@konman001 worked for al gore. Moore is now thousands of times wealthier than he was before leeching off left wing groupies. Has he rendered his wealth over to the hands of those he feels more deserve others'? No.
Xtro2005 1 year ago
Well, he did say that he loves Jesus :-)
konman001 1 year ago
@konman001 He probably loves himself some Buddha too.
Xtro2005 1 year ago
I was just being sarcastic
konman001 1 year ago
couldnt war help create profit by knocking out competitors?
For instance post WWI Britian lost iron/coal and textile markets to Japan/America etc as a result of war countries made profit
or am i off base here?
Prozac5647 2 years ago
Capitalism is a little more complex than just respecting property rights and the free market.
Not2Sane 2 years ago
plutocracyslayer(dot)com With out the ()
STOP THE PLUTOCRACY NOW
plutocracyslayer 2 years ago
The idea of a free market is a joke, our entire system is predicated on collusion, price fixing and market manipulation.
It's exactly why we have the worlds most expensive prescriptions and you pay over $100 a month for cable tv.
The idea of a fair and open market is an illusion.
Xenite227 2 years ago
8:50 overprinting of money? The US prints money only for replacement and to account for population growth. I may understand if Stefan means the FEDs manipulation of the money supply through open market operations, adjustment of the discount rate, and adjustment of the reserve requirement.
btmummert 2 years ago
"Well I haven't heard a lot of commercials
praising the free market."
Well, I haven't heard a lot of auto commercials praising the wars in the oil-rich regions of the Middle East and Central Asia, but I'm willing to guess where they stand.
sevenov9 2 years ago
Why would an alien assume that "someone is in charge of children's educations" ? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume that any intelligent being manages to learn things by themselves ?
stg213 2 years ago
Afganistan is a Capitalist country ans so is the rest of the world (except cuba)
Why wont countries like Afghanistan grow?
NeroroPuj 2 years ago
@NeroroPuj "Afganistan is a Capitalist country ans so is the rest of the world (except cuba)"
You mean Afghanistan prior to invasion or after?
Anyhow, it is my understanding, the main limitator of growth in developing economies is protectionism and regime uncertainty. But you're right, there is a general move towards more open and market tolerant economies, which is why, for instance, people living in the equivalent of a $1 US a day has fallen by half since 1981 (WB).
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
another intellectual masturbation that deviates from the main root cause of it all: the Feds. Talk about the Federal Reserve Board and its direct role in the current economic and financial crisis. Hello. I am only a high school grad. You probably, sir, has a PHD. You can simplify.
tubewog 2 years ago
MM is there to tell the sheeple they need a new form of government. Hey Stef, thanks for your free audio books!
kurittaja 2 years ago
shut up
intopikoy08 2 years ago
More socialism from Michael Moore?
Meh
deconstructionist67 2 years ago
Amen.
BoldSister9 2 years ago
Please tell me you saw the movie "Enron" and give me the low down on that. Viva free education.
BoldSister9 2 years ago
If cost my parents $40,000. to pay for my education in finance and through your generous pedantry and excellent understanding I finally understand my major.
BoldSister9 2 years ago
3. Public schools are hell-bent on brainwashing people to follow the state.
There is some truth to this - the Prussian education model (which the US followed) has a strong emphasis on obedience. This is notunique to the public system. I have attended both private and public institutions and my experience is that private schools are inherently conservative, status-quo and quick to stamp out any initiative/free thinking. The only exception would be the Steiner/Waldorf models and certain teachers.
stonem001 2 years ago
2.
Advertisements and popular media don't promote the free market/Capitalism.
Come ON! Haven't you watched the OC? Dynasty? James Bond? There are so many shows and movie characters that glorify extravagant, consumerist lifestyles.
Advertisements promote the unrelenting consumerism which is necessary to sustain the constant growth scenario which almost any mainstream Capitalist theorist like Friedman would support.
stonem001 2 years ago
Capitalism has nothing to do with a consumer lifestyle, or buying things, but rather the principle that we should be free to trade with each other without the initiation of force...
stefbot 2 years ago
Where are you getting this definition from?
The 'freedom' to trade coal or slaves or weapons (ie destructive products) would happily fit into your definition of Capitalism.
Go a few steps further and your notion of Capitalism inevitably results in injustice and abuse.
stonem001 2 years ago
No, you cannot trade slaves, because that requires the initiation of force to imprison the slaves - and do you think that governments do not trade weapons?
stefbot 2 years ago 2
So under your definition there should be no regulations to stop destructive products/services? The only limitation is that coercion shouldn't be used in their sale?
stonem001 2 years ago
I believe that we should not initiate violence to solve complex problems such as environmentalism and the protection of consumers, and if you are interested at all in my proposed solutions, I have a free book on my website called Practical Anarchy that might be of interest to you... :)
stefbot 2 years ago
I wasn't saying we should use violence to solve those problems.
I'm sorry but I think the use of market/buyer-seller mechanisms inevitably lead to injustice and oppression, creating hierarchies of wealth/power which make any form of Anarchy impossible. Thanks for the offer but I think you're looking in the wrong direction for solutions.
stonem001 2 years ago
No problem at all, best of luck and thanks for your interest!
stefbot 2 years ago
If I can return the favor, check out 'Economic Justice and Democracy' by Robin Hahnel - it's one of the strongest Anarchist economic models I've seen.
Alternatively do a search for 'Participatory Economics on wikipedia :)
stonem001 2 years ago
@stonem001 "check out 'Economic Justice and Democracy'"
Sounds interesting... But I imagine most ppl here have better uses for their time than to go read a book recommended by a total stranger in the internet. Would you like to expand on what it is about?
It seems its about partnerships. I am trained in econ. Do you know standard explanations like why we see workers diversifying their investment rather than investing in their own firm? If so, tell me whether the book addresses such points. thx
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
So you want to get rid of buyers and sellers? In effect you are going to force people not to trade anymore? Sounds violent to me. And who is going to impose such regulations?
MrNarchya 2 years ago
Advertisement is product of a blatantly stupid society my friend. Not the product of free market. Corporations wouldn't even exist in a free market society, considering they are not human beings. Corporations are monstrosities designed by the state, for the elite, worked by the people.
MrNarchya 2 years ago
@stonem001 "Advertisements promote (...) the constant growth scenario which almost any mainstream Capitalist theorist like Friedman would support."
Advertisement is a way to sell a product, an idea, etc, within proper boundaries it's fine. Just like I imagine you exercise, dress well, etc to advertise your potential as a mate. ;-)
I'm not sure why you say productivity growth follows consumption: I'd imagine not consuming and investing would be the path to growth. What do you have in mind?
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
Ok...I couldn't bring myself to sit through the whole of this but let me give some quick impressions on some points you make:
1. 'Capitalism' only refers to the exchange of goods and services without duress.
Even if one accepts this definition (which is a gross simplification/misrepresentation of Capitalist theory), it is inevitable that private ownership without regulation results in monopolization and wealth inequality - what we have today.
stonem001 2 years ago
just for my own clarity here.. ur a sort of free market anarchist yes?
thewirrow 2 years ago
I am a philosopher, who accepts the nonaggression principle as a universal value... :)
stefbot 2 years ago
this guy say kapitalism is just freedom of free trade... slavery to ? lol this guy diesnt kow much but not his fault really.. socialism has worked better than kapitalism for a very long time in sweden... his illusion is that people will sit down and be quiet while they get fired from their job so rich get richer.
locolatino11 2 years ago
Just wanted to add that in this case it is the Free Market helping to decide policy. That is why we do need government control over the influence and power of corporations to influence policy against the will of the people. It is not government that is inherently evil. It is the people in power and their connection to corporations that is dangerous.
Libertarianism needs to recognize this as they seem to always think government control is always ill willed.
AVincent2 2 years ago
Sorry, but yes people are profiting off war! They are a small minority but they are an influential group with ties to both parties although mostly republican.
Also many people in government and wealthy individuals own stock in these weapons companies, and they constantly need snacks to make money so they prolong conflicts ie Vietnam, Iraq afghanistan, while the people want out. So yes!! The Free market does decide war. I like this speaker, but he is so smug thinking he's always right.
AVincent2 2 years ago
The state is required to profit from war, the state is not a free market institution, but an agency of monopoly force...
stefbot 2 years ago
I don't believe it is the state that is profiting unless you mean the people in power who have financial connections to the military related corporations. (Weapons manufacturers, troops support ie. Halliburton, KBR and private civilian contractors.)
The people in power such as Obama and Bush had their campaigns financed by Wall street interests who have a desire to keep us in war as it is profitable to these business interests and their stockholders. Sorry but it's simply a fact.
AVincent2 2 years ago
@AVincent2 "Also many people in government and wealthy individuals own stock in these weapons companies, and they constantly need snacks to make money so they prolong conflicts ie Vietnam, Iraq afghanistan, while the people want out."
Politicians will find all kinds of excuses to pass their favorite programs and help their friends. Most people oppose Obamacare and the bailoits (thus the congress turnover), but look at how good that has done them.
UnconformistSheep 1 year ago
I think you alluded to the labour theory of value. This theory is also wrong. The Austrian view I believe is that the price of things is not how much labour they have but the subjective value judgment of the buyer, or the laws of supply and demand. The only reason that you make those $5 dollars is that you are able to sell it at a price higher than costs. The entrepreneur is not a worker, in that he does not 'deserves' his profit, he just finds opportunity.
mexaguil 2 years ago
I quite agree with you, I am a big fan of the Austrian school...
stefbot 2 years ago