Sweelinck's Fantasia Chromatica in mean-tone tuning

[JSAntares]

I too was smiling at the end!

[Sakurazuka1999]

Sweelinck in equal temperament is just boring.

Thank you for this performance in meantone tuning !

[padaneis]

Hello, I commented about this temperament comparison a few months ago. I have not changed idea, of course: I really appreciate both your performances and the theoretical framework. I post a video response with an analogous comparison, based upon Bach's gamba sonata BWV 1029, played at MIDI organ, in different tunings, including meantone (of course, this is not quite a historical performance). Bests!

[maxwellsteer]

There's probably a long Wikipedia entry on this. There are many contemporary surmises on the range of pitches used in musical 'prehistory'. Standardisation of pitch was driven by touring virtuosi in the 19thC. Germany had the convention of Kammer Ton & Chor Ton but Im not clear about the difference. Prior to the creation of tunning forks (when?) the only evidence is the length of organ pipes, but that is scarce.

[domcogan]

Magnificent, thanks. Am I right in saying that many Baroque instruments were tuned at entirely different pitches (e.g. a third higher)? So our preconceptions about how a particular key would have worked may be rather inaccurate, so that Buxtehude's F# minor Praeludium might have worked perfectly well in Lübeck (unless it was written for a well-tempered harpsichord or similar). Interesting stuff.

[JoelvanLennep]

Would it not be feasible, if somewhat unprincipled, to "fudge" slightly the Vallotti, or Young, or whatever other late tuning you are using, or would that defeat Bach's whole thesis? There are keys in the WTC which "don't occur in nature"; would JSB necessarily have used ET the rest of the time regardless? Certainly, clavichords (fretted ones - which were still the rule until the 2nd quarter of the 18th cent) had pre-set semitones - would he have gone to work on them with a pair of pliers?

[partialalignment]

The tuning is Thomas Young's "idealised" temperament. Keys with a common number of accidentals have the same value major 3rd. C is +391.7, F and G 394, D and Bb 396, up to F# which is the only pythagorean 3rd. It is an exceptionally weel balanced tuning. It is my standard tuning for pianos. I agree that an approximation to ET can be achived by ear. One needs to be careful though to ensure that any favourable bias is on the common keys.

[partialalignment]

I have a recording of the 48, played on a piano tuned in Thomas Young's well temperament number 1 (1799). The progression of tonal colour from C major to F# is a joy to listen to. The P&F book II in G#m sounds fantastic.

[maxwellsteer]

Is that 'Vallotti & Young'? I agree with you in principle, but would argue that in practice you can tune equal temperament by ear: or put another way, the results of 'slightly unequal temperament' prevent the blandness of absolute uniformity.

Hindustani music is based on microtonality, the different ragas being a response to rasa (mood) - but none use the mechanistic Western approach of simply subdividing the scale mathematically. I think we've lost something 'relational' that really matters.

[suffiice]

would you be so kind as to send me the score for this or tell me where it is available online?

[maxwellsteer]

I cant send you the score, and doubt that it's available online. But you should be able to buy it in print somewhere.

[cber2360]

@suffiice you can find at the International Music Score Library Project online (IMSLP) under Sweelinck organ works

[ccoraxfan]

@suffiice You can find the score freely available online at imslp (dot org) on the page entitled:

Fantasia in D minor (Sweelinck, Jan Pieterszoon)

[OceanderTethyseus]

sweelinck was such a wonderful composer. his lines are sweet, proportioned, and upright. he never descends into convulsions of emotion. his expressions shine as do gently twisted reflections on polished silver candlesticks.

[OceanderTethyseus]

beyond beautiful.

thank you so much for posting this fascinating video.

i will research these tunings and the subject, in general.

thanks again - beautiful work and a marvelous contribution to the body art scholoarship.

[SquallPwnLife]

this is brilliant, thanks for posting.

by the way, do you know if the accidentals you play (for example bar 34 C# at 1:29, or Bb in bar 80 - 3:29) are the original notes? or are they unwritten but implied?

thanks again

[TouchSensitive]

Im playing from the Seifert ed of 1943 - which I see I bought for my 15th birthday in 1961!

[ccoraxfan]

I love the sound of old music in this ancient-sounding temperament! The character is amazing.

Regarding the discussion: If Bach "requires" equal temperament, why then was equal temperament not used extensively until the 20th century? Surely the world didn't "suffer" unequal temperament for more than a century before "discovering" equal temperament! Plus I've never heard that Bach ever advocated equal temperament. If he did, then surely it was in vain, for apparently nobody listened!

[maxwellsteer]

@ccoraxfan There isnt space to answer the points you make, but you obviously dont know much about Bach's life. Read the link to my article about Temperaments & also the adjacent article about Psychology of Timbre. Check out articles Wohltemperirtes on Wikipedia. Best.

[ccoraxfan]

@maxwellsteer

I followed your suggested reading. Unfortunately it did not adequately address the issue I brought up, except Wikipedia, which supports my contention.

-

Nobody knows much about Bach. However, what is known about his use of temperament points more towards some form of unequal temperament. One can't go wrong using Werckmeister, Kirnberger or, as I currently use, Bradley Lehman's interpretation of the title-page "squiggle" of the Well-tempered (not equal-tempered) Clavier.

[10centguitar]

Bach couldnt have used equal temperament. There was no accurate way to measure the twelfth-root of 12 before the beginning of the 20th century. As to the comment "Bach really can't be played in unequal temperament." I would say not to our 20th century 12ET ears. With our acceptance of disgusting thirds and sixths. This is 1/4-comma meantone right? What about 1/6 comma? Or Bradley Lehman's understanding of "Bach's temperament" Our "Rosetta Stone"?

[maxwellsteer]

Bach was viewed as increasingly old-fashioned in his life as the galante style evolved, driven by his son CPE. Forgotten by the time of his death, nobody knew about his music until Mendelssohn pioneered a Bach revival in the mid 19thC. By that time equal temp was well established due to the piano. That's why he really had no influence on it. True, nobody knows exactly what he intended, but if playing the 48 (as I am currently) it's plain that nothing except abs ET works - see G#m or Bbm P&F Bk2

[PraeludiumUndFuge]

@maxwellsteer not entirely true, the musical elite had copies of Bach manuscripts beginning even with early Mozart, Haydn, etc. You can tell how big of an impact the Well Tempered Clavier had on their keyboard music and I'd even venture to say Mozart was inspired by Bach's B-minor Mass in a few of his Requiem Mass movements, so I suspect somehow he got ahold of a copy.

[PraeludiumUndFuge]

@maxwellsteer I can't comment so much on temperament but your statement that nothing but ET works seems a little radical. I'd have to go back and listen to those pieces in Werckmeister III. My gut feeling tells me Bach or anybody at the time simply had no regard for Eq Temp and indeed never even bothered to pursue it, instead settling for wholly different solutions.

[kratanuva725]

@maxwellsteer I've always wondered why people thought the piano had to do something with the standardization of eqaul temperament. Are you implying that because the piano is harder to tune than a harpsichord, that pushed people in developing a standard? (which was equal temperament) We also have to realize that what many people thought was eqaul temperament in the 19th centurey actually was slightly un-equal. It wasn't until the begining of the 20th centurey until the tuning was really...

[kratanuva725]

@maxwellsteer cont. ... 100% equal. Or close enough to 100% for the human ears to percive it as being equal anyway.

Well temperament also lasted longer in different areas, in other areas equal temperament took hold more quickly, so it is hard to pinpoint an exact date. But I would say the near universal adoption of equal temperament in the west happened in the late 19th- early 20th century, culminating from a pattern of scales moving closer and closer to equal...

[kratanuva725]

@maxwellsteer (cont.) ... E.A, -->

Meantone, Modified Meantone, Well temperament, mild well temperament, quazi-equal, equal.

[Exaquir]

@10centguitar

No accurate way, not possible? You should learn your mathematical history better! Christiaan Huygens came up with a 31 tone temperament in the 17th century. And its 31 root of 2, was accurately calculated. Mathematicians did make accurate calculations on tunings.

In Bach's times, the equal temperament was discussed, but not yet accepted by the public. One has yet reconstruced Bach's tuning from a cover note of WTK, but I still have to hear it myself to be convinced.

[PoopShitMario]

@10centguitar That's false, Brook Taylor, who invented Taylor series expansions and Taylor polynomials was able to approximate any root to desired accuracy. To increase accuracy just make 10 polynomials instead of 5, etc It's basic calculus, and tools were definitely available to do it. I mean I can do it without a calculator or computer, so could Taylor around 1710. Sure, formalized Taylor Series weren't around before Bach's time, but I'm sure Newton could approximate 12^(1/12) to 5 decimals.

[norre1024]

To anyone who cares: equal temperament can actually be tuned accurately by ear without ever counting absolute beat rates. Just set up an octave with a stack of thirds beating in 5 to 4 ratios. With the framework in place, you can quite easily find the size of fifths and fourths and finish the temperament.

[Bombarde16]

@10centguitar - "Bach couldn't have used equal temperament"

Probably more accurate to say that, even though Bach and his contemporaries *could* have used 12ET, they chose not to. 12ET was described by theorists generations before Bach but practicing musicians generally balked at the rotten sounding thirds and the pain-in-the-arse fussiness that 12ET is to tune by ear.

[hmaren]

Are you using quarter comma meantone?

[kurtcomet]

Thank you for this post! I have been listening to this video every day over and over this week and i simply love it! :)

The meantone version is so beautiful and i notice a funny detail. equal tempered version is almost half a minute shorter. Any chance you put alittle more heart into this one?

[padaneis]

Thank you so much for this performance! Comparison amongst temperaments was a very fine idea. My preferred temperament for this piece is meantone. You have tuned the keyboard to D D# E F F# G G# A Hb H C C#, right? Perhaps D# isn't pure meantone tuned, am I wrong? As to Bach, try Prelude and Fuge in cm from the second book of well tempered clavier: it sounds good! Of course I played it in meantone for the sake of curiosity...

[TouchSensitive]

Im sure I dont need to explain to you (but others might not know) you tune in perfect 4ths & 5ths in both directions from A (>EBF#C#) & (>DGCFBb) & then take a pragmatic decision about whether you want D#+G# (usually) or Eb+Ab (rarely) or compromise with Eb+G#.

The clue to Bach's view of the subject lies in the title of the 48! It's still the subject of learned debate as to whether he did in fact use a full equal-temperament.

[padaneis]

Thanks! Meantone Bach is just for fun of course...Bests

[Bombarde16]

@padaneis - Traditional meantone would have E-flat instead of D-sharp, leading to a rancid enharmonic third between B and D-sharp. I don't have the score in front of me, but IIRC there aren't any E-flats in the piece, in which case (and depending on what else you were playing on the program) you could just as easily tune a D-sharp instead of E-flat.

[padaneis]

@Bombarde16 Many thanks for your reply!

[suffiice]

I really love how you play this

[rwbuswell]

Thank you so much for posting these 3 versions. It really illustrates the subtle differences - an eye-opener to realise what 'old' music sounded like in its day.  Can we have some Bach in mean tone?

[maxwellsteer]

Well, quintessentially, as I've explained, Bach really can't be played in unequal temperament. When I recorded his French Suites I 'optimised' the tuning for each individual suite /key - which improved the harmonic effect; but when I came to the Eb/Cm suite (significantly, the final one) nothing except equal temperament would work.

[kratanuva725]

@maxwellsteer Did you try Young's temperment?

[partialalignment]

@maxwellsteer

Interesting comment. I find that in many well temperaments, C minor is a dark key, but very effective musically. I have a recording of Beethoven's "Pathetique" in C minor played on a Steinway tuned to Kirnberger III. It is by far the best recording I have of this sonata. Eb major is a neutral(ish) key in many well temperaments.

Bach could not have tuned ET accurately even if he wanted to. Calculated beat rates are a pre-requisite for ET.

[Bombarde16]

@maxwellsteer - "Bach can't be played in unequal temperament."

Unequal temperament encompasses a broad spectrum of systems, ranging from 1/4 syntonic comma meantone (which is indeed a bit rough for some Bach works) all the way out to later 18th century systems that are almost indistinguishable from 12ET. Some suit Bach better than others; but to damn the whole lot of them together and assume that Bach must therefore have been a champion of equal temperament is utter nonsense.

[maxwellsteer]

Eb/D#. Once you're in an unequal temperament you can forget Eb, because none of the flat keys 'work' they're too discordant. In mean-tone & its variants you tune for perfect thirds & fifths so that you get harmonically rich chords in the white note keys, & let the rest go hang. The reason why Werckmeister & other devised modified temperaments in the early 18thC was because composers were begining to be more adventurous in modulation, until finally Bach proposed the nuclear option!

[Bombarde16]

@maxwellsteer - Actually, in classical 1/4 SC meantone, E-flat forms a dead pure third with G and has the same tempered fifth as all the other "good" keys. A-flat is the rancid one, with an enharmonic third that does indeed sound discordant. Tonally, it does indeed cripple the key of E-flat not to have a proper subdominant; but there's nothing wrong with E-flat itself.

[Bachlives2]

You performance of this piece is just smashing in every respect! It is not to see expeimentation of temperaments! Not very often do we hear this piece played three times side by side in three different temperaments! I think by far the mean tone makes this piece very exciting and full of what (i suppose) you could call harmonic surprises. It is like Swimming in the Ocean! I hope to get a harpsichord someday and learn this piece. I noticed you tuned the E-flat down to a D# is this correct?

[maxwellsteer]

I agree with these comments. My point in making this experiment of placing different versions of the same piece beside each other was to illustrate just how much, yet how subliminally, temperament affects our perception something which those who play only the piano arent likely to encounter. Bach has a lot to answer for! At the same time, I doubt that Sweelinck could have foreseen how the use of equal temperament would develop. Check out John Bull's posthumous fugue on one of his themes.

[harmonise55]

All three version beautifully played, Max. For me the equally tempered one is quite dull. The mean-tone though provids a balance of sweet and sour - probably Sweelinck's point in setting out on a chromatic journey in the first place. What a surprise he would had got if it had been equally tempered - rather like making one's first, excitedly anticipated trip to a far flung part of the world, only to discover that it was substantially the same as home! Vive la différence, I say!

[koppergtr]

wow this is amazing!