The US has supported dictators more brutal than Gaddhafi who was less worst than many others but demonized in the media. So the "lets help the people against a tyrant" is utter BULLSHIT. The US created the rebels and supplied them with terrorists and mercenaries. The people have been subject to a barrage of propaganda to support the war in Libya. It was more about Pillaging the Oil and subjecting Libya to international banking (no more gold dinar) than anything.
xLance2000 It's a thesis,not an argument. And I believe it would be the responsibility of those claiming the west gave arms to provide evidence, not those denying it.
so. picard is more moral to allow his friend and several hundred other klingons who are in the right, to die. the harsh arithmatic of moral relativism rears it's ugly head again.
I dont know if this situation is entirely applicable to Libya. Picards reasoning was that he did not want to drag the entire federation into the war, while the U.S. Government decided to back the rebels. I think we would know Picards stance if he were president of the federation, but in all fairness the decision was not his to make.
Err yeah, and in the sequel to this episode, Captain Picard assembles a fleet that's sole purpose is to (and is successful) stop the Romulans from supplying their favored faction from winning the civil war. Not quite strict non involvement eh?
Where is the line between my business and yours? Libya is a part of this world as am I and what happens in Libya affects me.
Knowing which side to support in Libya was made easy for me by the Dictator himself who ordered his forces to wipe out all who opposed him. What will replace him we do not know but the hope is that it will be better.
@Steamrunner92 One man's civil war is another man's rebellion. It all depends on who winds up winning the conflict. If the Confederates won the US Civil War, it would be called a successful rebellion or a revolution and not a civil war.
@greatcow95 That's very true, and what I was trying to say, but I wasn't effective in saying it - when one of the groups is an oppressive regime that flagrantly disregards human rights and suppresses their own people, then it is permissable, and perhaps even advisable, for the international community to be involved in removing a threat to human rights, especially if asked. If it is merely an internal power struggle between two parties vying for control, then you stay the hell out of it...
@greatcow95 unfortunately we are forced to live in the present without the benefit of hind sight, so... isolationism or more meddling? i guess it is easy to be antiwar and isolationist.
@greatcow95 Agreed. If the British would have won the conflict that began in Her American colonies in 1775, modern British history books would have it listed as a civil war that occurred within the empire.
@greatcow95 Technically the American Civil War was no civil war at all, since the two sides were separate governments rather than factions fighting over control of a single government.
@AgentExeider That is an accurate observation; however, it's not a matter of what it is called as it is what the origin of the conflict is - Are two political parties vying for control through armed confrontation, or are an abused and suppressed populace seeking to, in the words of our Constitution, "alter or abolish" the old form of government?
Aside from debates on the prime directive, the whole reason the klingon empire was starting a civil war was to question the legitimacy of leadership. The federation does not step in because how klingon's decide to choose their leadership is up to them, NOT STARFLEET. Captain Picard knew the repercusions of actively uses the Federation's influence on Klingon matters. Yes they should come to the aid but this is an internal conflict that only Civil War by political means can solve. It's too bad.
@Paigeshusband sorry I missed the episode that starfleet mass produces birds of prey and other attack vessels, Paige, the Enterprise is not a military vessel of Starfleet, what is their primary mission to explore. Not be Warmongers, Kilngon's will have to solve their own problems that they make for themselves not ask starfleet to be executor in their wars, what you said isn't fair. Whom does starfleet involve themselves with next Kardassains , Fereguie, Romulans in the pursuit of total war
The Prime directive is the worst part of sniveling baby-boomer morality. The notion that the mandate for cultural Independence allows us to sit on our hands while innocent people suffer is morally repugnant . What is shocking is that trekkies take it seriously. You would think that the fact the crew of the Enterprise violate the prime directive in almost all of the episodes in order to avoid outrageous moral outcomes would be a hint that it a poor and self-serving moral system.
@montythesuperb It's all part of the story. It's called the Prime directive for a reason. A prime number can only be divided by itself or 1.
It's a self-sacrificing moral system, not a self-serving one. How many people would you wait for to change another culture? 2, 10, 1000, an entire nation? How many? How many troops on the ground would be enough?
@montythesuperb So millions of innocent people on a planet are going to be killed by a nuclear war, started by a handful of crazy (and in your words, "guilty" people). Your starship shoots down the missiles, kicks the leaders out, and saves everyone.
Sounds great right? Now, knowing of your FTL travel and technology, they go out into space, rapidly increase their tech, and then start a shooting war with your civilization. Billions on dozens of planets die.
Why do you assume that "millions of innocent people on a planet are going to be killed by a nuclear war," if americans do not intervene? Is that what you've been told by the media and mainstream analysts?
@MeissnerFlux what are you talking about? The assumption is you have a situation where there is something going on you need to intervene in.
The "prime directive" in ST was setup so that IF there was a situation where you could intervene, you should not. I think your missing my point, which is we should NOT intervene. Getting involved in a bunch of crap that is none of your buisness, even with the best intentions, can have very very bad (and unforcseen) consequences.
Memory Alpha states that the Prime Directive was expanded to apply to all civilizations regardless of being pre-warp or if they knew how to achieve faster than light travel. The general exceptions are if the directive is already broken somehow ("repair the damage" episodes) or if there is an extreme threat (General Order 24 and the Omega Directive).
Since the directive was expanded on in the 24th Century, Picard is right when he invoked the Prime Directive.
I thought this would be another half assed attempt to bring politics into star trek, then when I realized this clip was about the Prime Directive, I agreed with the analogy 100 percent. I think Roddenberry knew that the Us getting involved in other country's problems and making enemies would be an issue many decades after he conceived the overall philosphy of Star Trek, when it was an analogy to Vietnam at the time.
@SilverMcdowell1992 that's all fine and dandy except to the fact that to call up the "Prime Directive" towards a well known species (Klingon) is just an amazing error. Prime Directive deals with aliens who are still primitive and unaware of the federation.
"The Prime Directive is not just a set of rules; it is a philosophy... and a very correct one. History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous." -JLP
We are also being fed lies and warmongering propaganda to support war against Syria and Iran (and propaganda to demonize Chavez).
Rickdeckard2020 2 weeks ago
The US has supported dictators more brutal than Gaddhafi who was less worst than many others but demonized in the media. So the "lets help the people against a tyrant" is utter BULLSHIT. The US created the rebels and supplied them with terrorists and mercenaries. The people have been subject to a barrage of propaganda to support the war in Libya. It was more about Pillaging the Oil and subjecting Libya to international banking (no more gold dinar) than anything.
The Media is Propaganda
Rickdeckard2020 2 weeks ago
Riker: "What about Worf."
Picard: "Engage. Also -- Fuck that guy."
wylderyde 1 month ago
We didn't expect that interference in Libya would lead to the Duras taking over.
TimothyStuartRiches 1 month ago
xLance2000 It's a thesis,not an argument. And I believe it would be the responsibility of those claiming the west gave arms to provide evidence, not those denying it.
daophos 2 months ago
Now that Libya is over, maybe we can stop looking to Star Trek for guidance.
daophos 2 months ago
so. picard is more moral to allow his friend and several hundred other klingons who are in the right, to die. the harsh arithmatic of moral relativism rears it's ugly head again.
cwross1976 2 months ago
I dont know if this situation is entirely applicable to Libya. Picards reasoning was that he did not want to drag the entire federation into the war, while the U.S. Government decided to back the rebels. I think we would know Picards stance if he were president of the federation, but in all fairness the decision was not his to make.
DasBurka 2 months ago
We can't risk dragging our entire Federation into the Civil War of another faction - think of the resources expended and lives that will be lost.
But our guy is on that ship.
LEEEEEEROYYYYYYYYY JENNNNNNNNKINNNNNNNNSSSSS!
phocjame 2 months ago 4
Err yeah, and in the sequel to this episode, Captain Picard assembles a fleet that's sole purpose is to (and is successful) stop the Romulans from supplying their favored faction from winning the civil war. Not quite strict non involvement eh?
TiradeFaction 2 months ago
The kliingon ship’s captain appears to be marty feldman
fortunanike 3 months ago
@fortunanike LOL How true. When no Klingon ship came to aide him he could have sung, "I ain't got no no...body!"
RADIXCHRISTUSMOLE 2 months ago
what a bold move
DelvarWorld 3 months ago
is there no cure for their crispy foreheads? In all of time and space?
XabiAlonsosCousin 3 months ago
Where is the line between my business and yours? Libya is a part of this world as am I and what happens in Libya affects me.
Knowing which side to support in Libya was made easy for me by the Dictator himself who ordered his forces to wipe out all who opposed him. What will replace him we do not know but the hope is that it will be better.
Delta4ms 4 months ago
There is a difference between supporting one side of a civil war over the other and supporting a rebellion against an oppressive regime.
Steamrunner92 4 months ago
@Steamrunner92 One man's civil war is another man's rebellion. It all depends on who winds up winning the conflict. If the Confederates won the US Civil War, it would be called a successful rebellion or a revolution and not a civil war.
greatcow95 4 months ago 35
@greatcow95 That's very true, and what I was trying to say, but I wasn't effective in saying it - when one of the groups is an oppressive regime that flagrantly disregards human rights and suppresses their own people, then it is permissable, and perhaps even advisable, for the international community to be involved in removing a threat to human rights, especially if asked. If it is merely an internal power struggle between two parties vying for control, then you stay the hell out of it...
Steamrunner92 4 months ago
@greatcow95 t'was a 'war of northern aggression' the south was justified in defending it's way of life
SuperStealth23 4 months ago
@SuperStealth23 Thank you for speaking that truth.
And I'm a northerner...
TheWitchOvAgnesi 3 months ago
@greatcow95: an example of that is the American Revolution, it was classed at the time as a civil war.
wierdalien1 3 months ago
@greatcow95 unfortunately we are forced to live in the present without the benefit of hind sight, so... isolationism or more meddling? i guess it is easy to be antiwar and isolationist.
cwross1976 2 months ago
@greatcow95 Agreed. If the British would have won the conflict that began in Her American colonies in 1775, modern British history books would have it listed as a civil war that occurred within the empire.
RADIXCHRISTUSMOLE 2 months ago
@RADIXCHRISTUSMOLE
"History is written by the conqueror." - Winston Churchill
MasterO2 2 months ago
@greatcow95 Technically the American Civil War was no civil war at all, since the two sides were separate governments rather than factions fighting over control of a single government.
CountArtha 1 month ago
@Steamrunner92 Thank you. I have a feeling Picard would be on the side of the rebels if he were born yet.
locutus94 4 months ago
@Steamrunner92 rebellion is to cilvil war, as a car is to a parking lot, rebellions are contained within the context of a civil war.
AgentExeider 4 months ago
@AgentExeider That is an accurate observation; however, it's not a matter of what it is called as it is what the origin of the conflict is - Are two political parties vying for control through armed confrontation, or are an abused and suppressed populace seeking to, in the words of our Constitution, "alter or abolish" the old form of government?
Steamrunner92 4 months ago
@Steamrunner92 Western powers supported Al-Qaeda style scum.
TheHandsomeCrab 3 months ago
@Steamrunner92 Who decides the classification of each faction?
phocjame 2 months ago
Aside from debates on the prime directive, the whole reason the klingon empire was starting a civil war was to question the legitimacy of leadership. The federation does not step in because how klingon's decide to choose their leadership is up to them, NOT STARFLEET. Captain Picard knew the repercusions of actively uses the Federation's influence on Klingon matters. Yes they should come to the aid but this is an internal conflict that only Civil War by political means can solve. It's too bad.
vikingsoldierjedi10 4 months ago
@vikingsoldierjedi10
Besides what's a few dead Kilngon's among all the star systems?
Paigeshusband 4 months ago
@Paigeshusband sorry I missed the episode that starfleet mass produces birds of prey and other attack vessels, Paige, the Enterprise is not a military vessel of Starfleet, what is their primary mission to explore. Not be Warmongers, Kilngon's will have to solve their own problems that they make for themselves not ask starfleet to be executor in their wars, what you said isn't fair. Whom does starfleet involve themselves with next Kardassains , Fereguie, Romulans in the pursuit of total war
vikingsoldierjedi10 4 months ago
Ron "Picard" Paul for President 2012!
HoodedKingCobra 4 months ago
@HoodedKingCobra I can't. he's a Romulan.
ocerg1111 4 months ago
I'm glad that the prime directive encourages debate about serious issues :)
CzarKirk 4 months ago
The Prime directive is the worst part of sniveling baby-boomer morality. The notion that the mandate for cultural Independence allows us to sit on our hands while innocent people suffer is morally repugnant . What is shocking is that trekkies take it seriously. You would think that the fact the crew of the Enterprise violate the prime directive in almost all of the episodes in order to avoid outrageous moral outcomes would be a hint that it a poor and self-serving moral system.
montythesuperb 5 months ago
@montythesuperb It's all part of the story. It's called the Prime directive for a reason. A prime number can only be divided by itself or 1.
It's a self-sacrificing moral system, not a self-serving one. How many people would you wait for to change another culture? 2, 10, 1000, an entire nation? How many? How many troops on the ground would be enough?
doford 5 months ago
@montythesuperb So millions of innocent people on a planet are going to be killed by a nuclear war, started by a handful of crazy (and in your words, "guilty" people). Your starship shoots down the missiles, kicks the leaders out, and saves everyone.
Sounds great right? Now, knowing of your FTL travel and technology, they go out into space, rapidly increase their tech, and then start a shooting war with your civilization. Billions on dozens of planets die.
Still "morally repugnant" ?
testy462 5 months ago
Comment removed
MeissnerFlux 5 months ago
Why do you assume that "millions of innocent people on a planet are going to be killed by a nuclear war," if americans do not intervene? Is that what you've been told by the media and mainstream analysts?
MeissnerFlux 5 months ago
@MeissnerFlux what are you talking about? The assumption is you have a situation where there is something going on you need to intervene in.
The "prime directive" in ST was setup so that IF there was a situation where you could intervene, you should not. I think your missing my point, which is we should NOT intervene. Getting involved in a bunch of crap that is none of your buisness, even with the best intentions, can have very very bad (and unforcseen) consequences.
testy462 5 months ago
I think Khan wiped out Libya in the Eugenics Wars.
mokwella 5 months ago
Any Prime Directive was already violated when the western world supplied Gaddafi with a massive amount of weaponry to start with!
xLance2000 6 months ago 27
@xLance2000 my point ty
scouttroop291 3 months ago
@xLance2000 Gaddafi wasn't armed by the West.
daophos 2 months ago
@daophos Nonsense! Bring evidence to the stage that supports your argument!
xLance2000 2 months ago
Memory Alpha states that the Prime Directive was expanded to apply to all civilizations regardless of being pre-warp or if they knew how to achieve faster than light travel. The general exceptions are if the directive is already broken somehow ("repair the damage" episodes) or if there is an extreme threat (General Order 24 and the Omega Directive).
Since the directive was expanded on in the 24th Century, Picard is right when he invoked the Prime Directive.
greatcow95 6 months ago 11
This has nothing to do with the Prime Directive, which only applies to civilizations that are not warp-capable.
Besides, if it were about the Prime Directive, we would not see much reluctance here, or the Captain justifying his actions.
Outworlder 6 months ago
We simply cannot resist the urge to meddle--can we?
DandAinTac 6 months ago
I thought this would be another half assed attempt to bring politics into star trek, then when I realized this clip was about the Prime Directive, I agreed with the analogy 100 percent. I think Roddenberry knew that the Us getting involved in other country's problems and making enemies would be an issue many decades after he conceived the overall philosphy of Star Trek, when it was an analogy to Vietnam at the time.
Smart man. Brilliant Show.
SilverMcdowell1992 6 months ago 2
@SilverMcdowell1992 that's all fine and dandy except to the fact that to call up the "Prime Directive" towards a well known species (Klingon) is just an amazing error. Prime Directive deals with aliens who are still primitive and unaware of the federation.
LuisManuelLealDias 6 months ago
"The Prime Directive is not just a set of rules; it is a philosophy... and a very correct one. History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous." -JLP
zaz0926 6 months ago 2
Jean Luc Obama : Yes we can make it so !
snackpeelskin 6 months ago
Picard for president. Or maybe, Ron Paul?
NewspeakDictionary 6 months ago
Too bad the United State--er, I mean, "NATO", didn't follow Picard's example.
Thesterness 7 months ago
that exactly what i thought
crayzemotherfuker 8 months ago
It is amazing how relevent this is
SwordsmanMercenary 9 months ago