Thank you! You've got me thinking. Shows like Pop-Up-Video made me appreciate tidbits, so I can tolerate useless info intruding on the screen; granted, it is a much abused practice. Honoriffics can get old fast & are mostly easy to translate in English terms.There's only 1 thing that I prefer directly translated (it is also tough for any subs since illustrations will pop up): puns. I just prefer if they tell me what the Japanese pun is, because usually an English pun won't match the animation.
I agree on everything but the thing about signs and stuff. Then again, I know enough Japanese now to deactivate subs anyway - but to a big part thanks to these translations on-screen.
Lines on top & bottom should be dialouge.
Everything else is kinda 'justified' by the fact that they simply lack the experience to do it properly, is all. Do it better then, preferrably with my favorite shows which are not easily understood moe-crap but something like spice and wolf with many old expressions.
I also preferred when they changed Japanese names in dubs, it helps for the fluency. They pronounce Japanese names ridiculously in dubs.. Subs are my special place, I don't want them ruined too :( maybe I'll aim for professional production of subs when I'm at translator-level. Who knows?
I gave up on new dubs when Lucky Star kept the honorifics. Professionalism in free works that are easy to produce these days is one thing, sometimes I can overlook bad fansubs if the grammar is OK (doesn't have to be fluent English, I'm a Japanese student so I can appreciate what the literal translations would mean). But professionalism is expected in well.. professional works. i.e. dubs. I hope professional subs don't go down this path.. I wanna *want* to watch anime again, please, industry.
Es un documental muy interesante, comparto la mayoria de las criticas pero es una lastima que no haya una version subtitulada al español, para los que no saben ingles.
Como conclusion encuentro que:
Lamentablemente nunca vamos a eliminar esos errores en su totalidad ya que quienes manejan los fansubs son adolecentes que no comprenden lo que significa distribuir/editar/traducir un video con lenguaje/subtitulos en extranjero y pasarlo al castellano.
Well, how would you translate Nee-san when it's not used as sister but as elder person you're looking up to? Writing the name is unprofessional to me.
If I fansubbed I would also leave the suffixes since anyone would immediately read it up on Wikipedia or similar sites and would understand what they mean. There's also the fact that many characters are addressed with their surname + suffix like Kurosaki-san. Translation??
And what's wrong with writing full names if those are mentioned?
I disagree with some of these points, but for the most part this is solid. The significant difference in my ideology is that the English write-ins give the English viewers the same experience the Japanese viewers had, because certain establishing shots were meant to be viewed a certain way.
Oh well. If everything goes according to keikaku someone will respond negatively to this and we'll have dueling YT comments.
i definitely think there is some middle ground. being an otaku for a long time, and knowing enough Japanese anime "slang" as it might be called i do like some things left in Japanese, and i have always liked the honorifics but i do agree about cooling it with the foot notes and such...
wow, bravo, just bravo. I totally agree and glad I'm not the only one sick of how improper fansubs today are. you sir, have opened my eyes even more than they already were, especially on the aspect of leaving in words and honorifics just because people want to
I agree with you about the grammar. I think it'd justified it as a literal translation which after seeing your point, doesn't really contribute to the translation. Thanks for that.
I think there's a line between retaining the culture that goes along with the story and not disrupting that story. I like the honorifics. My preference. I immediately think of Tenchi Muyo and the running Washu honorific gags.
I sincerely believe there is "some" subtleties best left unaltered and then explained.
@donoho Honorifics in the subs really don't bother me personally... but I think they should never be used. Here's why-
1) If you know about honorifics, you will hear the "sama" or "chan" at the end of the name regardless of the subtitle, and you will always understand the implication of it. So basically the subtitle including "sama" is pointless.
2) if you don't know honorifics, you will have no idea why things like "sama" are attached to people's names and you'll just be confused.
Pretty much spot on. Though I would have pasted the entire wikipedia entry on Duran Duran over the opening sequence of speed grapher to drive the point home.
And hey asshat fansubbers that say: it's free so don't complain... just cause a shit sandwich is free, doesn't make it worth eating.
Funny, people's here to learn how to translate. I remember that someone made a similar tutorial than yours saying "you can change dialogues". The result was weird subs where some honorifics were translated like "auntie". Real dialogues re-interpreted as whatever the translator thought would sound better. In the end, they disappeared, nobody wanted those subs. Trying to repeat the history? Looks like your disciples even don't know how to pronounce seNpai. Daniel-san? No, Mr. Daniel for you, Asian
Let's talk about pro-subbers. I found this in Ryuuki Denshou. A girl said in Japanese "anata wa?" and change the scene. The DVD sub translated it like "What are you doing here?" A simple "you?" could have made the deal. There are cases like this in other DVDs, where they increase words explaining the scene even if the dialogues just says a name (example: Sentimental Journey DVDs).
And those explanation that english fansubs have are just horrible. I never use them because i translate everything, even if translation looks stupid but it is translated. "san, chan, sempai" never exist in my translation i just hate them and replace with suitble word.
I'm one of those bad fansubers you mention in video (not english). After watching your video i realize my mistake and now i'm thinking i should make subtitles in plain SRT without any stupid jumping effects or with simple ASS subtitles (of course i keep improving my english to not write so stupid sentence like those english you mention in video). It's not like i was doing so much jumping effects but still they were a little.
but everything is not bad about the documentary. I agree with the comments about karaokes in opening and endings and scenes with music where you have japanese lyrics, translation and kanjis dancing in the same time around the screen... it's annoying. I agree too with translate words with a perfect translation to english like nakama-friend or oni-chan/little brother but don't include techinques or names to that.
I respect the opinion of the author of those videos but he sometimes comments exaggerated examples like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei where the whole serie is full of japanese text... if you don't translate them then you don't understand the idea of each episode or translate EVERYTHING to english... then goodbye to Bankai or Kamehameha.
I agree 75% of the time. Sometimes I like the subs on buildings and etc. if it's needed. If the character says earlier she's going to the bank..no need to label the building -__- It's the times when they get an important document or something and they don't translate -________-;;; I hate those little notes at the top...if you're gonna put them them, at leave ample time for me to read it, don't 4 sentences of explanation and then take it off it two seconds. And those flashy title sequences... OTL
@SaliorMoonFanatic Completely agreed. There should be a universal rule about putting notes and things on the screen - never put more words on the screen than what's possible to read in the time period when they're on the screen.
I hate it so much when there's a TL Note at the top, English on the screen, and then the sub at the bottom. I try to read it all, miss most of it (including the subtitled line), have to pause and rewind... there is nothing more distracting than that.
I completely agree, with you otaking, fansubs turn shittier every time, makes me think that weebos are the ones translating if you can actually call that translating, spanish fansubs are not exactly like english ones but they are also starding to decay in some fansub groups, but I prefer english over spanish subs, reason is that most spanish subs are from spain and omg I just hate reading Spaniard colloquial terms >.< they make no sense to me sometimes
I think the reason we've come to this is because we've been handed so many crappy DUBS from American companies that we were scarred for life from the botched up translations and censorship. As a result a lot of fansubbers overcompensate on their 'attempt' to retain authenticity. But enough is enough. The cluttered text has got to go. I should NOT have to pause and my anime a bajillion times to read a BUNCH of translator's notes.
@Kavaeka That's a good point, I hadn't considered that but it makes a lot of sense. But regardless of the reason for it, the subbers are trying wayyyyy too hard to make it completely authentic, to the point where it's less authentic because of the awkwardness of switching between languages constantly.
It's sad that it's a constant choice between lazy inaccurate official translations, and way-too-accurate cluttered fansubs.
You've actually changed my opinion about fansubs and translations. I used to think that some words with certain politeness levels, or with varying meanings had no way of being translated, but I realize now that it's better to be invisible and seamless and make a simple note in an included booklet or glossary. Even with honorifics this is true, but "pro companies" are translating them a lot.... I'll have to think about this more! Thanks for the great documentary series!
Please contact Kodansha USA and tell them how to translate a Sailor Moon manga properly. "Princess-sama" and using "sensei" all the time... it just won't do! They must be taught a lesson!
@fighter4luv I was so hopeful about the newly translated Sailor Moon manga release... I thought that finally after all these years, they'll have a sensible, readable, and accurate official release... but no.
Inconsistent translations/honorifics, and just plain distracting weirdness. Usagi sees Motoki and says "It's Bro!"... I mean come on, make an effort please.
I think I prefer the Mixx version, it had mistakes but it was readable, you never got distracted by weird wrongly-translated English.
I was trying to think of a way to describe why I pretty much don't like anime (for the most part anyway) for a while now, and you pretty much hit every mark with it in your videos.
Very informative, much more than these subbers with their footnotes covering half of the screen. Learned a lot of stuff and made me appreciate it more, so thank you for this.
People shouldn't get so butt hurt about the vids. The creator goes off on tangents and nitpicks details occasionally but he presents a legitimate core message. A decent number of anime subs do have a lot of inane BS.
The QQ'ers don't realize the nonsense has died down since 2008 (When he made the vids) in part due to his efforts. I say this from experience since I vividly remember getting into anime and seeing giant boxes of Jap trivia and scores of untranslated honorifics and what not.
You started off decent with this series but then you just went off the deep end. I completely disagree with you about 80% of the time. Not to mention a majority of fansubbers don't even do a majority of what you've "discussed." As for what you think karaoke will look like, do you really think that English lyrics will have katakana written over it? REALLY? As for what you've presented in the last part of the video, you've taken your arguments to the extreme. e.g. 経済 would obviously be translated.
It's kind of dumb to make a five part documentary griping at amateur sub-titlers for not being professional. But you're right. Anime fans are cliquish and elitist about these things, resulting in needing to be a professional anime fan to read the subs. But you're wrong that us early fans didn't have to put up with bad subs. Usually, we had to watch it raw. Thus we felt, no matter how bad a sub was, we were grateful to whoever made the effort. It was the gawd awful dubs we couldn't abide.
I always noticed the weird english like "Even at a time like this!" and shrugged it off to faulty translations. I usually subconsciously correctly rearrange it myself in my head anyway but.... Welp. Interesting documentary.
I mostly agree, definitely dislike the flashy fonts and leaving japanese words (unless they're really critical or something) or trying to blend in translated characters with the art.
the one thing i think they should leave though is some of the 'japanese language logic'. like if it would be correct, but unusual to put it that way in english, put it the wierd way. it does give a glipse into their logic, like "your opponent for today... is me"
I'm in agreement with you about half of the time. I personally would like translation to be right in the middle. I like the more literal translation with honorifics regardless of language but the flashy subs need to die. I like signs to be translated and some onscreen translation notes are nice but they are used way to much. I wish more groups would use a more in depth text file with only a few onscreens. Overall great video. My Japanese is good enough understand RAWs but not translate them.
@deadkenndys As someone with some proficiency in Japanese (but less than you) I can see where you're coming from. But I think you're overlooking the fact that leaving things unchanged is distracting and confusing to people who know no Japanese.
Honorifics take 10 seconds to learn, so those can stay or go. I think signs etc. should be translated, but as subtitles, NOT as overlays meant to look as if they were originally part of the show.
Great documentary! I just found this today and honestly I am surprised it took so long for me to find it. Fantastic work and I will be linking others to these videos!
Thank you! I saw this years ago and finally found it again because of TVtropes. Sadly this also makes me realize how bad my english is since I can't see the trouble with some of the grammatical problems pointed out. On the other hand I guess I should be glad since fansubs won't irk me quite as much >.>
Personally, I don't think superimposing translations onto foreign characters is all bad. If anything, making it look like it's actually part of the art is better than leaving it untranslated. And if you're going to make a big deal about covering up the art, then why did you praise subs that have giant black boxes behind them? Like with the ParaKiss scene, I couldn't see any movement because the black box was concealing whatsherface's mouth, which was animated nicely.
"How could you to my father...!?" You speak the truth in this documentary. I was resistant to your ideas but the more i watched the more i realized what you say is true. Thank you for the enlightenment.
The one and only case where I have to disagree with Otaking is leaving Ken-oh in the Hokuto anime episodes as just Ken-oh. it wouldn't be half as cool to translate it into Fist King. other than that, though, otaking is pretty much all correct
I, for one, wellcome our fansubbing friends. There is atleast one good reason as to why modern fansubs should be at least a bit imperfect. And that is to force people to go and BUY the official release, or if there is none,nag your local distributer about it.
I seriously believe this is why atleast some of the modern,young generation,fansub groups do the silly 3-line horizontal/vertical subs. You are mooching this stuff off the net for free,so put up with our bullshit!
@vladopag This is just an extremely poor cover-up excuse. If fansubbers are respectful of their local distributors then they would be sensible to leave faint messages during the episodes dictating that viewers should support the show if they like it or another message in a similar context.
@jackyfan They used to do things like that more often, but those messages and the "not for sale, rent, etc." stuff died out when fansubs stopped looking like fan-translated anime (with group names, staff credits, and extraneous comments) and started looking more like cold, sterile, 0-day warez products that magically appeared on the Internet.
Lately I've bought one of the set top boxes. It is not fully supports ssa and ass, so all the fansubs are rendered with one simple font style in the bottom. It looks MUCH better than some crazy styles fansubbing groups are using :).
I agree with you dude but sometimes when ive watch anime tha translaters dont fan sub everything to death but back when i was ah naruto fan i saw tht they did tht alot so i guess ya never gonna kno who fan sub this episode and who fan sub the next episode or what ever
All the above are editing problems, not translation problems. See, many translators are not native English speakers, so I can't blame them for doing stuff like that. Solution: GET A FREAKING ENGLISH EDITOR!!!!!
he has a point, a lot of fansub groups leave to much to be pieced together by the viewer, the way i have always seen it, subtitles should not distract from the show, when most people translate speech, they dont repeat the translation literally, why would you do it with subtitles? why cover such wonderful art with text all over the screen? sure theres some things that should probably be left in tact but literal translations suck, subs should not be animated, the less distraction the better
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Also, why did you pronounce "konna toki ni" in a right Japanese pronounciation? I don't see how that has any bearing on this video. Were you trying to prove something? That you know how to pronounce it like that?
KIDDING ASIDE, I'm wondering something. You do know "professional" translators also dub anime, right? What do you think of them? There's fandubbers, too, if you were ignorant of that fact. If they ever pronounce the Japanese names correctly, are they too lazy to do it the "proper" way?
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Yes, that last part you did truly incapsulates what fansubbers are all about.
*facepalm*
That anyone could actually take anything seriously from this is beyond me. It's complete and utter tripe. Nothing but spin, spin, spin- it's like you want to be a part of that show what's his face. Tell you what, it would even be a worthy look if you didn't shit all over it with your biased nonsense. Clearly all fansubbers should be shot in the face. Prick.
I was with you up until this part, man. Sometimes changing the way the dialogue flows can completely rewrite a scene or a character. Not everyone is an informal American badass.
@Onslaughttitude That's part of why translation can be hard work. Heck - predominant Eastern theories of translation actually put MORE emphasis on transparency over fidelity than Western theories.
@Onslaughttitude It's true that changing the flow of the dialogue can rewrite the scene if you do it wrong... that's why you make sure you don't do it wrong.
But you just shouldn't use dialogue that does not sound like an English speaker. "That guy... even at a time like this?!" No one who speaks English has EVER said that in a real life situation.
It should be rewritten. If "why'd the bastard have to show up now" sounds wrong for the character, then modify it into something better.
lol one piece really gets raped by it subbers huh? i never even clocked that before but now you mention it is sooooooo damn irritating i'm gonna have to switch to dubs
Can you imagine what it would look like if His and Her Circumstances a.k.a. Kare Kano, was fansubbed like that? All you would see is text all over the screen. If you've watched it you probably understand what I mean. The screen would be completely cluttered with text most of the time. Yikes!
after having suffered through a few poorly fansubbed series..... I hope that the fansubbers see your documentary and take note!
I do, however, like some of the notes on Japanese culture the fansubs include.... they do help at times. (as long as they don't get in the way as you've said, of course)
well i think now that you can add multiple subs to the same video,
they should add 2 subs, one a translation and other an insight into the culture of japan,,
so people who just want to see the anime can watch it without pausing the vid every time, and those who want to have an insight into the japanese culture can do that too,
well i think now that you can add multiple subs to the same video,
they should add 2 subs, one a translation and other an insight into the culture of japan,,
so people who just want to see the anime can watch it without pausing the vid every time, and those who want to have an insight into the japanese culture can do that too,
@DorjeB0dh that's actually an awesome idea. I would absolutely love it if there were two options, "full subtitles" if you want translated signs and lyrics flying all over the screen, and "minimalist subs" if you just want dialogue only.
Good documentary, very true, and I totally agree that a translation should be invisible, there is nothing more anouying than having to pause the vid to read footnotes. Jeesh... Good work..
this was a great documentary but these days there are too many sources of fansubs and they all need to go. its not the fansubbers job to put these out
Well done! I agree with pretty much everything except that I do quite like those unobtrusive English translations of written Japanese, as they add to understanding. ^_^ Surely all of those people who like the honorifics, sentence endings, etc left in, are actually listening to the Japanese as well as reading the translation, so that they can tell whether -san or whatever is being used, and get the "authentic Japanese" experience without spoiling it for those who just want a decent translation.
Haha, I enjoyed this, even if I don't totally agree with it. Thanks for the insight!
Overall, I think it just depends what you want out of anime. Some people just want to watch and understand. Some people want to have a stronger insight into Japanese culture and language. I think there's a middle ground that most people are comfortable with.
You make a lot of good points, and it is indeed sad that it's done this way. Although in the end I suppose it comes down to the translators being unpaid fans, so picking between current fansubs and not watching some anime at all isn't a terribly difficult decision.
Omg, when you started translating the anime and after 30 seconds of watching it I found myself being so annoyed by all this! And yet I have watched similar stuff and I hadn't noticed it so much! xD
That was a great documentary, well, more like a rant. A lot of it agreed with. The kareoke text, the unnessesary translator's notes, everything. Good job
This is why Animeigo was the best translation/distribution company of all time. Just give me the translation notes separately. Half of the notes that fansubbing groups give you these days are stupid anyway, I don't give a shit about Japanese grammar, if it's something I don't need to know to get the joke or whatever, DON'T TELL ME BECAUSE I DON'T CARE
@roothands I couldn't agree more... I LOVED Animeigo's releases. I'm so happy they got to be the ones to officially release my favorite anime show of all time, Kimagure Orange Road. I would hate to see an incredible show like that get covered in this fan-sub clutter.
The separate translation notes are the absolute best way to go. It was so interesting and educational to read them afterwards, I really enjoyed it... but I don't want them plastered all over the show itself!
So far, I agree with your points. But fansubbers nowadays are probably doing this just to please their audience, but in actuality they don't know what their audience are really feeling about it. I think present fansubbers are just confused on how they should translate. Usually they wonder about how they should respect the japanese language and the authors/creators since they don't want to look like a bunch of amateurs and just translate everything to make it look totally non-japanese.
You made a lot of good points and this was interesting to watch. I still like the san/chan/etc in the translation but I guess thats a matter of preference. To be honest though, thats not something limited to fansubs. Honorifics are left in on some professional subs as well and I also see a lot in manga too. I know that there is a difference between moving animation and comics but most people know about san and chan without knowing squat about Japan.
@cheatchick555 You're right, and they sometimes even leave them in movies (Kill Bill left in -san at one point). So yeah, some of the more basic honorifics don't bother me as much as some of the other mistakes fansubbers make.
I disagree with you making something like "aitsu... konna toki ni" into "why did the bastard have to turn up now?" It's things like that that make people wrongly think the Japanese have filthier mouths in their children's shows than anyone else. "Aitsu" does NOT mean "bastard." "Why did that guy have to turn up now" works just as well, and it doesn't create the false illusion that the Japanese are gutter-snipes. You seem to be just as bad as some of the fansubbers you're complaining about...
Some people prefer to watch a story that is as uninterrupted as possible, even if it means missing a couple jokes, references, or nuances that they wouldn't understand anyway. Other people don't mind pausing or having parts of the screen covered up in order to see the detailed background info for a scene or line of dialogue. The most common role of subtitles, naturally, is the former, but it seems that with anime, there is for whatever reason a significant audience for the latter.
Both sides have said they want the same experience as the Japanese viewer. Both sides are wrong, however. Subtitles can't do this. They can provide you with the translations and the information needed to understand the jokes and cultural references, but they can't do this a) at the same speed a Japanese viewer (so you may have to pause to read), b) without covering up parts of the screen. Both sides have different priorities: visual storytelling vs. understanding of the source language/culture.
This argument stems from a difference in answers to the question, "What is the purpose of subtitles?" Otaking believes they are a tool to help follow the story. Some jokes or cultural references may be lost in order to tell the story smoothly. Those arguing against him believe they are meant to let the viewer understand everything a Japanese viewer would, at the expense of storytelling. Subtitles are by nature an imperfect tool for conveying both a story and a culture. Which is more important?
Pitchguest quit being a whiny bitch. This was posted 2 years ago. This documentary was absolutely right on the money and roasts the weaboo's for disrespecting the anime that we actually want to see treated with respect. Bugger off.
By the way, you seem to agree on reversing the names from the Japanese model to the English model as well, when translating, which is equally...ridiculous. Do you know how stupid it would sound if the Japanese did that? Very.
Which is probably why they don't do it.
Reversal of the names is just dense to begin with. "Translate as you see it. No distractions." Well, if I hear Kurosaki Ichigo but see Ichigo Kurosaki that's pretty damn distracting!
Finally, you should learn to moderate and use some common sense. That bit with Mikawo and your thinking it's silly she doesn't refer to herself as "I", rather than in third person?
Why?
Because she refers to herself in third person. Simple. Obviously that's her niche. That you think that the fansubbers should translate that into saying "I think" rather than "Mikawo thinks" is not the subbers fault, it's because the actual character is written as such.
As well Westernising things that couldn't or shouldn't be Westernised, like honorifics.
In many "professional" subs I've seen honorifics translated into, I've seen many -sans being "mister" or "miss," or -sama as "lord" or "lady." Ok, fair enough about -san being "mister", that's its equivalent. But -sama as "lord?"
That's not even a remotely accurate translation. In fact, I don't think it could even be accurately translated as the suffix is just a sign of respect. "Lord", however, it is not.
You want to depict the rise and fall of fansubbing, but what you're doing is just belittling one whilst praising the other.
This is not good documenting.
You actually say things I agree with, but in the entire video you showcase what you think is bad with fansubbing these days but never what's actually good. In the world of journalism, this is known as editorialising.
Surely you should have better standards than that.
Like that bit at the end was just ridiculous. Just ridiculous.
At first I thought this would be a video that depicts when fansubbing was at its apex, to what we're left with now. I thought that it would actually be interesting. Boy, was I wrong. A documentary, you say? Yeah, and Zeitgest is pegged as a documentary. Give me a break.
It's an old video. Two years. But you're still an elitist prick.
One thing this excellent documentary didn't touch on is the sheer amount of groups subbing the exact same show. And usually its a race to see who can get it out the fastest. I would prefer if they showed more respect to other groups already doing a show, unless the other groups suck.
@lunaspite and sometimes even if there is a legit simulcast available. Say Crunchyroll simulcasts a broadcast in Tokyo, and it broadcasts in Osaka three days earlier. There will be a group that will fansub the raws recorded off of Osaka TV.
After listening and watching this all, he makes mostly good points but ignores all case by case situations and uses some bad examples. Also pretty much makes the same arguments everyone else made about old fansubbing and current fansubbing even 6, 7, or 8 years ago. And by the end, I got annoyed of listening to this guy's voice make good points and make bad ones. 7/10
I gotta agree with you to some extent. However, there really are SOME things that can't really be translated very well. There are words describing things we don't have words for yet.
@drunksamurai and you are the one who has no idea what he is talking about. when translating an honourific all you need to do preserve the spirit of the words and not the actual word themselves. I guess you were so intelligent that you skipped the chapter in english about paraphrasing and putting shit in your own words
THANK YOU for creating and posting this! I've been arguing with people - friends and strangers alike - that we should translate meaningfully instead of trying to give a crash course in "otaku Japanese." I really, really appreciate the research you've put into this, as well as the logic. I feel totally justified now when I don't leave in random Japanese words. I don't believe in translating proper nouns, but all the rest should be translated. I love this documentary! Thank you!!!
I don't mind translator's notes so long as they are shown before or after the show. I've only seen a few that do this, but I liked it because I could pause and read them before the actual show, or after it.
Instead of 1:44, "I thought he'd talk if I made him uncomfortable." works as well.
Nice to see the literal grammar looks completely natural to me now. That can't be good. Perhaps the only part of this for me to completely agree on though. How odd.
One thing you didn't mention that annoys the hell out of me is the tendency to give characters different colored subtitles, even when they aren't speaking at the same time, which tends to be coordinated to their clothing or hair color, thus resulting in subtitles that blend in so much as to be unreadable! I think, though, that the reason people leave stuff in Japanese has mostly to do with the fetishization of the language and culture, as well as an overreaction to 4Kids et al.
This documentary is spot on. Thankfully, it seems like nowadays some groups are doing it mostly right, in part probably because criticism like this, but most likely because the rise of speed subs and soft subs is forcing them to drop all the bullshit. It's just not technically possible to splatter the screen with weird fonts everywhere, and there's less time for long-ass TL notes.
@DrunkSamurai fansub notes are good for a show with lots of technical terms being thrown around where understanding them are necessary for following the show such as in hikaru no go and akagi
If you don't like the way fansubs are done, just buy legal localized DVDs with professional subtitles, and leave the over-the-top fansubs to the internet cliques that love them.
The problem with that is that many shows don't have official DVD/BD/streaming releases, so fansubs are the only way to see them. Take "Touka Gettan" (2007), for example. Until I started re-releasing it earlier this year, the *only* way to see it was a fansub that exemplified pretty much all the traits that this documentary decries.
@Teal17ragon@Teal17ragon i think you missed the part about using an appropriate metaphor to replace the japanese. so if a joke is gonna require a bunch of reference notes for someone to understand, maybe you should substitute it for a joke that fits the context but readily understandable by a non-japanese audience.
also i don't think he is against all forms of reference notes, he's just saying that they are over-used and often are not needed. i fully agree with this
@DrunkSamurai obviously you didn't listen to the reason. translator's notes are best doen as little as possible because they are very distracting. i remember watching a bleach fansub and like the top 3 inches of the screen would be chocked full of this stuff. and the longer the show went on, the more the fanboy translators kept the japanese
@DrunkSamurai obviously you didn't listen to the reason. translator's notes are best done as little as possible because they are very distracting. i remember watching a bleach fansub and like the top 3 inches of the screen would be chocked full of this stuff. and the longer the show went on, the more the fanboy translators kept the japanese
@xBoyMercuryx Then you must not be that intelligent if you get distracted my translator notes. Also no. Many cannot be translated such as san, sama, kun, or chan. Anybody who does that is an idiot.
@DrunkSamurai it has not a damn thing to do with intelligence if one edns up being distracted by constantly having to flip one's eyes between the scene, explanatory text at the top of the screena dn story text at the bottom
and only an idiot thinks honourifics can't be translated. japanese aren't some people from mars whose language embodies concepts utterly alien to all other languages and cultures. it's an intelligent person who can translate well.
@BoyMercuryX Because they are not distractions. Only an unintelligent person would think they are distracting. No. You really don't know shit. They cannot be translated.
Thank you! You've got me thinking. Shows like Pop-Up-Video made me appreciate tidbits, so I can tolerate useless info intruding on the screen; granted, it is a much abused practice. Honoriffics can get old fast & are mostly easy to translate in English terms.There's only 1 thing that I prefer directly translated (it is also tough for any subs since illustrations will pop up): puns. I just prefer if they tell me what the Japanese pun is, because usually an English pun won't match the animation.
Citadel1221 6 days ago in playlist MUST WATCH
I agree on everything but the thing about signs and stuff. Then again, I know enough Japanese now to deactivate subs anyway - but to a big part thanks to these translations on-screen.
Lines on top & bottom should be dialouge.
Everything else is kinda 'justified' by the fact that they simply lack the experience to do it properly, is all. Do it better then, preferrably with my favorite shows which are not easily understood moe-crap but something like spice and wolf with many old expressions.
BerylliumUupa 3 weeks ago
I also preferred when they changed Japanese names in dubs, it helps for the fluency. They pronounce Japanese names ridiculously in dubs.. Subs are my special place, I don't want them ruined too :( maybe I'll aim for professional production of subs when I'm at translator-level. Who knows?
Duriretlan 3 weeks ago
I gave up on new dubs when Lucky Star kept the honorifics. Professionalism in free works that are easy to produce these days is one thing, sometimes I can overlook bad fansubs if the grammar is OK (doesn't have to be fluent English, I'm a Japanese student so I can appreciate what the literal translations would mean). But professionalism is expected in well.. professional works. i.e. dubs. I hope professional subs don't go down this path.. I wanna *want* to watch anime again, please, industry.
Duriretlan 3 weeks ago
I agree with all your points.
Voitan 3 weeks ago
This has been flagged as spam show
A good typesetter would not use such distracting/ugly fonts and colors.
For karaoke, over the top effects are bad but this does not mean all karaoke is bad.
For fansub titles in the OP, a similar thing applies again.
Don't do it unless you can do it properly.
Good typesetters integrate their own credits into the OP so seamlessly, that unless you were explicitly focusing on the text, you wouldn't notice it.
It comes down to what we judge as acceptable today, not what was expected 10+ years ago.
dyndsu7 4 weeks ago
Comment removed
dyndsu7 4 weeks ago
Es un documental muy interesante, comparto la mayoria de las criticas pero es una lastima que no haya una version subtitulada al español, para los que no saben ingles.
Como conclusion encuentro que:
Lamentablemente nunca vamos a eliminar esos errores en su totalidad ya que quienes manejan los fansubs son adolecentes que no comprenden lo que significa distribuir/editar/traducir un video con lenguaje/subtitulos en extranjero y pasarlo al castellano.
Ultimo error: No saben usar el español neutro.
RegnumOnlineVideos 1 month ago
Well, how would you translate Nee-san when it's not used as sister but as elder person you're looking up to? Writing the name is unprofessional to me.
If I fansubbed I would also leave the suffixes since anyone would immediately read it up on Wikipedia or similar sites and would understand what they mean. There's also the fact that many characters are addressed with their surname + suffix like Kurosaki-san. Translation??
And what's wrong with writing full names if those are mentioned?
madara1221 1 month ago
I disagree with some of these points, but for the most part this is solid. The significant difference in my ideology is that the English write-ins give the English viewers the same experience the Japanese viewers had, because certain establishing shots were meant to be viewed a certain way.
Oh well. If everything goes according to keikaku someone will respond negatively to this and we'll have dueling YT comments.
(T/N: keikaku means plan)
DigiCount 1 month ago
i definitely think there is some middle ground. being an otaku for a long time, and knowing enough Japanese anime "slang" as it might be called i do like some things left in Japanese, and i have always liked the honorifics but i do agree about cooling it with the foot notes and such...
mariaclairedg 1 month ago
wow, bravo, just bravo. I totally agree and glad I'm not the only one sick of how improper fansubs today are. you sir, have opened my eyes even more than they already were, especially on the aspect of leaving in words and honorifics just because people want to
krx50 2 months ago
@krx50 I think you mean you're sick of how awesome fansubs are today.
DrunkSamurai 1 month ago
I agree with you about the grammar. I think it'd justified it as a literal translation which after seeing your point, doesn't really contribute to the translation. Thanks for that.
I think there's a line between retaining the culture that goes along with the story and not disrupting that story. I like the honorifics. My preference. I immediately think of Tenchi Muyo and the running Washu honorific gags.
I sincerely believe there is "some" subtleties best left unaltered and then explained.
donoho 3 months ago
@donoho Honorifics in the subs really don't bother me personally... but I think they should never be used. Here's why-
1) If you know about honorifics, you will hear the "sama" or "chan" at the end of the name regardless of the subtitle, and you will always understand the implication of it. So basically the subtitle including "sama" is pointless.
2) if you don't know honorifics, you will have no idea why things like "sama" are attached to people's names and you'll just be confused.
bobdonda 3 months ago
Pretty much spot on. Though I would have pasted the entire wikipedia entry on Duran Duran over the opening sequence of speed grapher to drive the point home.
And hey asshat fansubbers that say: it's free so don't complain... just cause a shit sandwich is free, doesn't make it worth eating.
davehrmn 3 months ago
Funny, people's here to learn how to translate. I remember that someone made a similar tutorial than yours saying "you can change dialogues". The result was weird subs where some honorifics were translated like "auntie". Real dialogues re-interpreted as whatever the translator thought would sound better. In the end, they disappeared, nobody wanted those subs. Trying to repeat the history? Looks like your disciples even don't know how to pronounce seNpai. Daniel-san? No, Mr. Daniel for you, Asian
NemaN101 3 months ago
Let's talk about pro-subbers. I found this in Ryuuki Denshou. A girl said in Japanese "anata wa?" and change the scene. The DVD sub translated it like "What are you doing here?" A simple "you?" could have made the deal. There are cases like this in other DVDs, where they increase words explaining the scene even if the dialogues just says a name (example: Sentimental Journey DVDs).
NemaN101 3 months ago
Kudos for the animation you placed in there. Love the style.
Oh and you really went all out there in the end. I didn't even know what was going on anymore with all that text.
kapanihan 4 months ago
And those explanation that english fansubs have are just horrible. I never use them because i translate everything, even if translation looks stupid but it is translated. "san, chan, sempai" never exist in my translation i just hate them and replace with suitble word.
I'm serious about my change.
kostek3x 4 months ago
I'm one of those bad fansubers you mention in video (not english). After watching your video i realize my mistake and now i'm thinking i should make subtitles in plain SRT without any stupid jumping effects or with simple ASS subtitles (of course i keep improving my english to not write so stupid sentence like those english you mention in video). It's not like i was doing so much jumping effects but still they were a little.
kostek3x 4 months ago
but everything is not bad about the documentary. I agree with the comments about karaokes in opening and endings and scenes with music where you have japanese lyrics, translation and kanjis dancing in the same time around the screen... it's annoying. I agree too with translate words with a perfect translation to english like nakama-friend or oni-chan/little brother but don't include techinques or names to that.
kaikanphase 4 months ago
I respect the opinion of the author of those videos but he sometimes comments exaggerated examples like Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei where the whole serie is full of japanese text... if you don't translate them then you don't understand the idea of each episode or translate EVERYTHING to english... then goodbye to Bankai or Kamehameha.
kaikanphase 4 months ago
Why don't translators just replace the Japanese on signs with English words instead of just tacking the translation on?
leveechan 4 months ago
Those Street Fighter movie scenes reminded me of the very first time i though consciously "I kinda like this anime thing".
Nowadays both fansubs and most contemporary anime is shit.
7:24 WHO WAS PHONE?
Ifyouneedinstruction 4 months ago
I now see how annoying this is.
Thank you for putting this on YouTube.
WNA5000 4 months ago in playlist MUST WATCH
hate to be completely off subject but what was the anime used at the end where the girl couldn't find her uniform? It looks interesting.
dnbest 5 months ago
I agree 75% of the time. Sometimes I like the subs on buildings and etc. if it's needed. If the character says earlier she's going to the bank..no need to label the building -__- It's the times when they get an important document or something and they don't translate -________-;;; I hate those little notes at the top...if you're gonna put them them, at leave ample time for me to read it, don't 4 sentences of explanation and then take it off it two seconds. And those flashy title sequences... OTL
SaliorMoonFanatic 5 months ago in playlist MUST WATCH
@SaliorMoonFanatic Completely agreed. There should be a universal rule about putting notes and things on the screen - never put more words on the screen than what's possible to read in the time period when they're on the screen.
I hate it so much when there's a TL Note at the top, English on the screen, and then the sub at the bottom. I try to read it all, miss most of it (including the subtitled line), have to pause and rewind... there is nothing more distracting than that.
bobdonda 3 months ago
I completely agree, with you otaking, fansubs turn shittier every time, makes me think that weebos are the ones translating if you can actually call that translating, spanish fansubs are not exactly like english ones but they are also starding to decay in some fansub groups, but I prefer english over spanish subs, reason is that most spanish subs are from spain and omg I just hate reading Spaniard colloquial terms >.< they make no sense to me sometimes
leonasenshi 5 months ago
I think the reason we've come to this is because we've been handed so many crappy DUBS from American companies that we were scarred for life from the botched up translations and censorship. As a result a lot of fansubbers overcompensate on their 'attempt' to retain authenticity. But enough is enough. The cluttered text has got to go. I should NOT have to pause and my anime a bajillion times to read a BUNCH of translator's notes.
Kavaeka 5 months ago
@Kavaeka That's a good point, I hadn't considered that but it makes a lot of sense. But regardless of the reason for it, the subbers are trying wayyyyy too hard to make it completely authentic, to the point where it's less authentic because of the awkwardness of switching between languages constantly.
It's sad that it's a constant choice between lazy inaccurate official translations, and way-too-accurate cluttered fansubs.
bobdonda 5 months ago
You've actually changed my opinion about fansubs and translations. I used to think that some words with certain politeness levels, or with varying meanings had no way of being translated, but I realize now that it's better to be invisible and seamless and make a simple note in an included booklet or glossary. Even with honorifics this is true, but "pro companies" are translating them a lot.... I'll have to think about this more! Thanks for the great documentary series!
azuritemoon 5 months ago
"Otaku" should just learn Japanese and not use anime to "teach" it to them...
PrincessKagayaki 5 months ago
Please contact Kodansha USA and tell them how to translate a Sailor Moon manga properly. "Princess-sama" and using "sensei" all the time... it just won't do! They must be taught a lesson!
fighter4luv 5 months ago 2
@fighter4luv I was so hopeful about the newly translated Sailor Moon manga release... I thought that finally after all these years, they'll have a sensible, readable, and accurate official release... but no.
Inconsistent translations/honorifics, and just plain distracting weirdness. Usagi sees Motoki and says "It's Bro!"... I mean come on, make an effort please.
I think I prefer the Mixx version, it had mistakes but it was readable, you never got distracted by weird wrongly-translated English.
bobdonda 5 months ago
really good documentary
iymagalhaes 5 months ago
How could you, to my father, even at a time like this!
I... I... must be asked what am i going to do. Myself would reply with, "become kokrotoni!"
------TRANSLATOR NOTE------- (covers half the screen with a black background)
you cannot translate the last word into English at all. Also his father dies.
mrzisawesome 5 months ago
Ironic as subs get worse the anime being translated is usually loli moe bullshit.
alphaotakux 5 months ago
In conclusion, fansubs leave it as Japanese as possible, because it's a cult.
Though, I've gotta say something. Y'know when you said "Why'd the bastard have to show up now...!?"
It's kinda like. Well.
Remember Anime Lab's translation of DragonBall Z?
Yeah...
BAlOHAZADO 5 months ago
I was trying to think of a way to describe why I pretty much don't like anime (for the most part anyway) for a while now, and you pretty much hit every mark with it in your videos.
Very informative, much more than these subbers with their footnotes covering half of the screen. Learned a lot of stuff and made me appreciate it more, so thank you for this.
stardyjab 5 months ago
>Dem Speed Grapher subs
DEAR GOD MAKE IT STOP
cvYamaguchi 6 months ago
The dislikes and negative comments for these videos are all fansubbers pretending they are not.
jackyfan 6 months ago
People shouldn't get so butt hurt about the vids. The creator goes off on tangents and nitpicks details occasionally but he presents a legitimate core message. A decent number of anime subs do have a lot of inane BS.
The QQ'ers don't realize the nonsense has died down since 2008 (When he made the vids) in part due to his efforts. I say this from experience since I vividly remember getting into anime and seeing giant boxes of Jap trivia and scores of untranslated honorifics and what not.
schwegburt 6 months ago
You started off decent with this series but then you just went off the deep end. I completely disagree with you about 80% of the time. Not to mention a majority of fansubbers don't even do a majority of what you've "discussed." As for what you think karaoke will look like, do you really think that English lyrics will have katakana written over it? REALLY? As for what you've presented in the last part of the video, you've taken your arguments to the extreme. e.g. 経済 would obviously be translated.
CrappyCaptureDevice 7 months ago
@CrappyCaptureDevice Wow someone doesn't understand the concept of irony.
jackyfan 6 months ago
@CrappyCaptureDevice ...You realise he made these exaggerations to further highlight his point? ...Right?
Cesariono 5 months ago
@CrappyCaptureDevice And what proof do you have to counter the 80 percent of what you don't agree with?
You have no proof, even at a time like this.
mrzisawesome 5 months ago
I think Funi's dragonball z subs are just a tad too literal
mrzisawesome 7 months ago
This part 5 so-called documentary is horrible even if trolling.
Change the title of part 2-5 to "Anime Fansub Documentary & Ranting"
kantoriX1 7 months ago
It's kind of dumb to make a five part documentary griping at amateur sub-titlers for not being professional. But you're right. Anime fans are cliquish and elitist about these things, resulting in needing to be a professional anime fan to read the subs. But you're wrong that us early fans didn't have to put up with bad subs. Usually, we had to watch it raw. Thus we felt, no matter how bad a sub was, we were grateful to whoever made the effort. It was the gawd awful dubs we couldn't abide.
PerriRhoades 7 months ago
What anime is that @ 1:23
DeluxeRobots 8 months ago
I always noticed the weird english like "Even at a time like this!" and shrugged it off to faulty translations. I usually subconsciously correctly rearrange it myself in my head anyway but.... Welp. Interesting documentary.
mynameisTR0UBL3 8 months ago
I mostly agree, definitely dislike the flashy fonts and leaving japanese words (unless they're really critical or something) or trying to blend in translated characters with the art.
the one thing i think they should leave though is some of the 'japanese language logic'. like if it would be correct, but unusual to put it that way in english, put it the wierd way. it does give a glipse into their logic, like "your opponent for today... is me"
CavalloDiSpade 8 months ago 4
I'm in agreement with you about half of the time. I personally would like translation to be right in the middle. I like the more literal translation with honorifics regardless of language but the flashy subs need to die. I like signs to be translated and some onscreen translation notes are nice but they are used way to much. I wish more groups would use a more in depth text file with only a few onscreens. Overall great video. My Japanese is good enough understand RAWs but not translate them.
deadkenndys 8 months ago 6
@deadkenndys As someone with some proficiency in Japanese (but less than you) I can see where you're coming from. But I think you're overlooking the fact that leaving things unchanged is distracting and confusing to people who know no Japanese.
Honorifics take 10 seconds to learn, so those can stay or go. I think signs etc. should be translated, but as subtitles, NOT as overlays meant to look as if they were originally part of the show.
bobdonda 5 months ago in playlist MUST WATCH
Great documentary! I just found this today and honestly I am surprised it took so long for me to find it. Fantastic work and I will be linking others to these videos!
--Ratgirl Productions
ratcabob 8 months ago
Thank you! I saw this years ago and finally found it again because of TVtropes. Sadly this also makes me realize how bad my english is since I can't see the trouble with some of the grammatical problems pointed out. On the other hand I guess I should be glad since fansubs won't irk me quite as much >.>
eleanore97 8 months ago
"This monstrous strength" works....
TheGreenGentlemon 8 months ago
What is this fast thing?
Idolores 9 months ago
ur video is amazing xP hhaha
098anime 9 months ago
Personally, I don't think superimposing translations onto foreign characters is all bad. If anything, making it look like it's actually part of the art is better than leaving it untranslated. And if you're going to make a big deal about covering up the art, then why did you praise subs that have giant black boxes behind them? Like with the ParaKiss scene, I couldn't see any movement because the black box was concealing whatsherface's mouth, which was animated nicely.
SilentscufflE 9 months ago
@SilentscufflE LOL. He put the black box to cover up the existing fansubs.
Yukimu 9 months ago
"How could you to my father...!?" You speak the truth in this documentary. I was resistant to your ideas but the more i watched the more i realized what you say is true. Thank you for the enlightenment.
SixCeroSix 9 months ago
@SixCeroSix So you got stupider the more you watched?
DrunkSamurai 9 months ago
@DrunkSamurai If this is your way of trolling, it's awful. You have the trolling ability of an 10 yr old.
Reikinou 8 months ago
@Reikinou Its not trolling if you mean it. Only an idiot would get influenced to agree with an idiot like OtaKing.
DrunkSamurai 7 months ago
Just something random...
"Everyone's country." and "You we seeing a dream." could actually sound perfectly right in English given a certain context.
PacGamer 9 months ago
@PacGamer Exactly. But I think it makes more sense if it's in Indonesian or another Asian language like Chinese.
joe9320 9 months ago
Pani Poni Dash has committed fansubbing atrocities. It's painful to watch.
This has been an enlightening documentary.
fugazi0311 10 months ago
How can someone claim, they understand the meanings of Japanese honorifics yet fail to comprehend them by just listening?
It just makes no sense to redundantly put suffixes in subtitles, when anyone who cares about them could easily figure them out by themselves.
leckse 11 months ago 7
@leckse Well considering that most honorifics have no actual translations that would be pretty impossible.
DrunkSamurai 10 months ago
whats your codec?
korei13 1 year ago
The one and only case where I have to disagree with Otaking is leaving Ken-oh in the Hokuto anime episodes as just Ken-oh. it wouldn't be half as cool to translate it into Fist King. other than that, though, otaking is pretty much all correct
raisukeuzarachi 1 year ago
I 100% agree,but i can't do anything about it xD.
dylstew 1 year ago
I, for one, wellcome our fansubbing friends. There is atleast one good reason as to why modern fansubs should be at least a bit imperfect. And that is to force people to go and BUY the official release, or if there is none,nag your local distributer about it.
I seriously believe this is why atleast some of the modern,young generation,fansub groups do the silly 3-line horizontal/vertical subs. You are mooching this stuff off the net for free,so put up with our bullshit!
Pay up,or be trolled :).
vladopag 1 year ago 2
@vladopag
I watch it raw, dohohoh.
geniusbob 8 months ago
@vladopag This is just an extremely poor cover-up excuse. If fansubbers are respectful of their local distributors then they would be sensible to leave faint messages during the episodes dictating that viewers should support the show if they like it or another message in a similar context.
jackyfan 6 months ago
@jackyfan They used to do things like that more often, but those messages and the "not for sale, rent, etc." stuff died out when fansubs stopped looking like fan-translated anime (with group names, staff credits, and extraneous comments) and started looking more like cold, sterile, 0-day warez products that magically appeared on the Internet.
Zalis116 2 months ago
Lately I've bought one of the set top boxes. It is not fully supports ssa and ass, so all the fansubs are rendered with one simple font style in the bottom. It looks MUCH better than some crazy styles fansubbing groups are using :).
mikandesu 1 year ago
I love reading the comments, you can really tell who was involved in creating a shitty fansub.
LMAO!
temmet 1 year ago
@temmet
I assume you since you think he showed shitty subs.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
man, i was getting a headache trying to keep up with all the fansubs and footnotes towards the end :\
joecabot34599 1 year ago
Interesting videos. I didn't even know people got worked up by things like fansubbing.
MrCokeLolx 1 year ago
I laughed so hard, nice videos.
sasukekun66 1 year ago
I agree with you dude but sometimes when ive watch anime tha translaters dont fan sub everything to death but back when i was ah naruto fan i saw tht they did tht alot so i guess ya never gonna kno who fan sub this episode and who fan sub the next episode or what ever
SGTSAM101ST 1 year ago
What is this fast thing = What could be this fast
Even at a time like this = Why now, of all times?
This just cannot be! MIA.. = He can't be MIA!
You were seeing a dream = You were dreaming
All the above are editing problems, not translation problems. See, many translators are not native English speakers, so I can't blame them for doing stuff like that. Solution: GET A FREAKING ENGLISH EDITOR!!!!!
DmonHiro 1 year ago
he has a point, a lot of fansub groups leave to much to be pieced together by the viewer, the way i have always seen it, subtitles should not distract from the show, when most people translate speech, they dont repeat the translation literally, why would you do it with subtitles? why cover such wonderful art with text all over the screen? sure theres some things that should probably be left in tact but literal translations suck, subs should not be animated, the less distraction the better
lzymxn 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Lastly, no fansubber would ever sub Sol Bianca the third way you pointed out. Where did you even get a stupid idea like that?
I'm done. Honestly, were you brought up like an idiot or did you just turn out like that?
Pitchguest 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Also, why did you pronounce "konna toki ni" in a right Japanese pronounciation? I don't see how that has any bearing on this video. Were you trying to prove something? That you know how to pronounce it like that?
KIDDING ASIDE, I'm wondering something. You do know "professional" translators also dub anime, right? What do you think of them? There's fandubbers, too, if you were ignorant of that fact. If they ever pronounce the Japanese names correctly, are they too lazy to do it the "proper" way?
Pitchguest 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Yes, that last part you did truly incapsulates what fansubbers are all about.
*facepalm*
That anyone could actually take anything seriously from this is beyond me. It's complete and utter tripe. Nothing but spin, spin, spin- it's like you want to be a part of that show what's his face. Tell you what, it would even be a worthy look if you didn't shit all over it with your biased nonsense. Clearly all fansubbers should be shot in the face. Prick.
Pitchguest 1 year ago
I was with you up until this part, man. Sometimes changing the way the dialogue flows can completely rewrite a scene or a character. Not everyone is an informal American badass.
Onslaughttitude 1 year ago
@Onslaughttitude That's part of why translation can be hard work. Heck - predominant Eastern theories of translation actually put MORE emphasis on transparency over fidelity than Western theories.
jhwisner040 9 months ago
@Onslaughttitude It's true that changing the flow of the dialogue can rewrite the scene if you do it wrong... that's why you make sure you don't do it wrong.
But you just shouldn't use dialogue that does not sound like an English speaker. "That guy... even at a time like this?!" No one who speaks English has EVER said that in a real life situation.
It should be rewritten. If "why'd the bastard have to show up now" sounds wrong for the character, then modify it into something better.
bobdonda 3 months ago
lol one piece really gets raped by it subbers huh? i never even clocked that before but now you mention it is sooooooo damn irritating i'm gonna have to switch to dubs
lilmissfarah 1 year ago
@lilmissfarah That's pretty damn pathetic if you ask me.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
@DrunkSamurai
didnt ask
lilmissfarah 1 year ago
@lilmissfarah Who cares if you didn't ask? Its pathetic to get influenced to just watch dubs after watching these videos.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
Can you imagine what it would look like if His and Her Circumstances a.k.a. Kare Kano, was fansubbed like that? All you would see is text all over the screen. If you've watched it you probably understand what I mean. The screen would be completely cluttered with text most of the time. Yikes!
Traumaqueenamy 1 year ago
after having suffered through a few poorly fansubbed series..... I hope that the fansubbers see your documentary and take note!
I do, however, like some of the notes on Japanese culture the fansubs include.... they do help at times. (as long as they don't get in the way as you've said, of course)
you so so rock OtaKing!!!! thank you :)
ryoko65 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
well i think now that you can add multiple subs to the same video,
they should add 2 subs, one a translation and other an insight into the culture of japan,,
so people who just want to see the anime can watch it without pausing the vid every time, and those who want to have an insight into the japanese culture can do that too,
DorjeB0dh 1 year ago
well i think now that you can add multiple subs to the same video,
they should add 2 subs, one a translation and other an insight into the culture of japan,,
so people who just want to see the anime can watch it without pausing the vid every time, and those who want to have an insight into the japanese culture can do that too,
DorjeB0dh 1 year ago
@DorjeB0dh that's actually an awesome idea. I would absolutely love it if there were two options, "full subtitles" if you want translated signs and lyrics flying all over the screen, and "minimalist subs" if you just want dialogue only.
bobdonda 3 months ago
Good documentary, very true, and I totally agree that a translation should be invisible, there is nothing more anouying than having to pause the vid to read footnotes. Jeesh... Good work..
Gandayalf 1 year ago
this was a great documentary but these days there are too many sources of fansubs and they all need to go. its not the fansubbers job to put these out
aelita59junocom 1 year ago
Well done! I agree with pretty much everything except that I do quite like those unobtrusive English translations of written Japanese, as they add to understanding. ^_^ Surely all of those people who like the honorifics, sentence endings, etc left in, are actually listening to the Japanese as well as reading the translation, so that they can tell whether -san or whatever is being used, and get the "authentic Japanese" experience without spoiling it for those who just want a decent translation.
Karasunokazu 1 year ago
Once again this was beautifully made. Someone had to say this and I'm glad it was someone as comprehensive as you.
RedAtariButton 1 year ago
Haha, I enjoyed this, even if I don't totally agree with it. Thanks for the insight!
Overall, I think it just depends what you want out of anime. Some people just want to watch and understand. Some people want to have a stronger insight into Japanese culture and language. I think there's a middle ground that most people are comfortable with.
innerchihiro 1 year ago
You make a lot of good points, and it is indeed sad that it's done this way. Although in the end I suppose it comes down to the translators being unpaid fans, so picking between current fansubs and not watching some anime at all isn't a terribly difficult decision.
LuciferKuroro 1 year ago
Omg, when you started translating the anime and after 30 seconds of watching it I found myself being so annoyed by all this! And yet I have watched similar stuff and I hadn't noticed it so much! xD
adk908 1 year ago
OYAKATA-SAMA!!!!
scizzer12 1 year ago
That was a great documentary, well, more like a rant. A lot of it agreed with. The kareoke text, the unnessesary translator's notes, everything. Good job
Kolbatsu 1 year ago
@Kolbatsu None of the ones in his videos that were shown are unnecessary.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@DrunkSamurai "None of the ones in his videos that were shown are unnecessary. "
Really... then why didn't the original Japanese releases include TL notes for German and Latin words like some of the examples he showed do?
jhwisner040 9 months ago
This is why Animeigo was the best translation/distribution company of all time. Just give me the translation notes separately. Half of the notes that fansubbing groups give you these days are stupid anyway, I don't give a shit about Japanese grammar, if it's something I don't need to know to get the joke or whatever, DON'T TELL ME BECAUSE I DON'T CARE
roothands 1 year ago 19
@roothands You're the only one.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
@roothands I couldn't agree more... I LOVED Animeigo's releases. I'm so happy they got to be the ones to officially release my favorite anime show of all time, Kimagure Orange Road. I would hate to see an incredible show like that get covered in this fan-sub clutter.
The separate translation notes are the absolute best way to go. It was so interesting and educational to read them afterwards, I really enjoyed it... but I don't want them plastered all over the show itself!
bobdonda 5 months ago in playlist MUST WATCH
I totally agree with 1:10 xD
dirofreak 1 year ago
So far, I agree with your points. But fansubbers nowadays are probably doing this just to please their audience, but in actuality they don't know what their audience are really feeling about it. I think present fansubbers are just confused on how they should translate. Usually they wonder about how they should respect the japanese language and the authors/creators since they don't want to look like a bunch of amateurs and just translate everything to make it look totally non-japanese.
lYakuzal 1 year ago
You made a lot of good points and this was interesting to watch. I still like the san/chan/etc in the translation but I guess thats a matter of preference. To be honest though, thats not something limited to fansubs. Honorifics are left in on some professional subs as well and I also see a lot in manga too. I know that there is a difference between moving animation and comics but most people know about san and chan without knowing squat about Japan.
Other then that I agree with everything else.
cheatchick555 1 year ago
@cheatchick555 You're right, and they sometimes even leave them in movies (Kill Bill left in -san at one point). So yeah, some of the more basic honorifics don't bother me as much as some of the other mistakes fansubbers make.
Okoa 1 year ago
Does OtaKing still fansub?
ilovepocky0123 1 year ago
@ilovepocky0123
I hope not. Then we would be left with shit fansubs.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
you are right in some stuff
mastergameremanuel 1 year ago
i watched all 5 parts and this guy is on to something, no he's be on it for a while
nuglenugle 1 year ago
I disagree with you making something like "aitsu... konna toki ni" into "why did the bastard have to turn up now?" It's things like that that make people wrongly think the Japanese have filthier mouths in their children's shows than anyone else. "Aitsu" does NOT mean "bastard." "Why did that guy have to turn up now" works just as well, and it doesn't create the false illusion that the Japanese are gutter-snipes. You seem to be just as bad as some of the fansubbers you're complaining about...
nicoleb 1 year ago
Some people prefer to watch a story that is as uninterrupted as possible, even if it means missing a couple jokes, references, or nuances that they wouldn't understand anyway. Other people don't mind pausing or having parts of the screen covered up in order to see the detailed background info for a scene or line of dialogue. The most common role of subtitles, naturally, is the former, but it seems that with anime, there is for whatever reason a significant audience for the latter.
undefinedusername 1 year ago
Both sides have said they want the same experience as the Japanese viewer. Both sides are wrong, however. Subtitles can't do this. They can provide you with the translations and the information needed to understand the jokes and cultural references, but they can't do this a) at the same speed a Japanese viewer (so you may have to pause to read), b) without covering up parts of the screen. Both sides have different priorities: visual storytelling vs. understanding of the source language/culture.
undefinedusername 1 year ago
This argument stems from a difference in answers to the question, "What is the purpose of subtitles?" Otaking believes they are a tool to help follow the story. Some jokes or cultural references may be lost in order to tell the story smoothly. Those arguing against him believe they are meant to let the viewer understand everything a Japanese viewer would, at the expense of storytelling. Subtitles are by nature an imperfect tool for conveying both a story and a culture. Which is more important?
undefinedusername 1 year ago
@undefinedusername
Exactly how would translators notes ruin the storytelling?
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
Pitchguest quit being a whiny bitch. This was posted 2 years ago. This documentary was absolutely right on the money and roasts the weaboo's for disrespecting the anime that we actually want to see treated with respect. Bugger off.
cbilici 1 year ago
@cbilici The documentary was nowhere near the money. Also disrespecting? lol. Quit smoking weed please. It fries the brain you know.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
Obviously that's a strawman, but still.
By the way, you seem to agree on reversing the names from the Japanese model to the English model as well, when translating, which is equally...ridiculous. Do you know how stupid it would sound if the Japanese did that? Very.
Which is probably why they don't do it.
Reversal of the names is just dense to begin with. "Translate as you see it. No distractions." Well, if I hear Kurosaki Ichigo but see Ichigo Kurosaki that's pretty damn distracting!
Pitchguest 1 year ago
In fact, it's even so bad that I'm inclined to ask if you know anything about fansubbing at all.
Well?
Pitchguest 1 year ago
Finally, you should learn to moderate and use some common sense. That bit with Mikawo and your thinking it's silly she doesn't refer to herself as "I", rather than in third person?
Why?
Because she refers to herself in third person. Simple. Obviously that's her niche. That you think that the fansubbers should translate that into saying "I think" rather than "Mikawo thinks" is not the subbers fault, it's because the actual character is written as such.
Or are you just that devoid from logic?
Pitchguest 1 year ago
As well Westernising things that couldn't or shouldn't be Westernised, like honorifics.
In many "professional" subs I've seen honorifics translated into, I've seen many -sans being "mister" or "miss," or -sama as "lord" or "lady." Ok, fair enough about -san being "mister", that's its equivalent. But -sama as "lord?"
That's not even a remotely accurate translation. In fact, I don't think it could even be accurately translated as the suffix is just a sign of respect. "Lord", however, it is not.
Pitchguest 1 year ago
You want to depict the rise and fall of fansubbing, but what you're doing is just belittling one whilst praising the other.
This is not good documenting.
You actually say things I agree with, but in the entire video you showcase what you think is bad with fansubbing these days but never what's actually good. In the world of journalism, this is known as editorialising.
Surely you should have better standards than that.
Like that bit at the end was just ridiculous. Just ridiculous.
Pitchguest 1 year ago
At first I thought this would be a video that depicts when fansubbing was at its apex, to what we're left with now. I thought that it would actually be interesting. Boy, was I wrong. A documentary, you say? Yeah, and Zeitgest is pegged as a documentary. Give me a break.
It's an old video. Two years. But you're still an elitist prick.
Pitchguest 1 year ago
One thing this excellent documentary didn't touch on is the sheer amount of groups subbing the exact same show. And usually its a race to see who can get it out the fastest. I would prefer if they showed more respect to other groups already doing a show, unless the other groups suck.
lunaspite 1 year ago
@lunaspite and sometimes even if there is a legit simulcast available. Say Crunchyroll simulcasts a broadcast in Tokyo, and it broadcasts in Osaka three days earlier. There will be a group that will fansub the raws recorded off of Osaka TV.
eebruce 1 year ago
After listening and watching this all, he makes mostly good points but ignores all case by case situations and uses some bad examples. Also pretty much makes the same arguments everyone else made about old fansubbing and current fansubbing even 6, 7, or 8 years ago. And by the end, I got annoyed of listening to this guy's voice make good points and make bad ones. 7/10
KazeKishi 1 year ago
I gotta agree with you to some extent. However, there really are SOME things that can't really be translated very well. There are words describing things we don't have words for yet.
pkthunder3 1 year ago
I agree with about 90% of what you said. This was extremely well thought out argument and a perfectly executed documentary. Kudos.
mehve 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@drunksamurai and you are the one who has no idea what he is talking about. when translating an honourific all you need to do preserve the spirit of the words and not the actual word themselves. I guess you were so intelligent that you skipped the chapter in english about paraphrasing and putting shit in your own words
BoyMercuryX 1 year ago
THANK YOU for creating and posting this! I've been arguing with people - friends and strangers alike - that we should translate meaningfully instead of trying to give a crash course in "otaku Japanese." I really, really appreciate the research you've put into this, as well as the logic. I feel totally justified now when I don't leave in random Japanese words. I don't believe in translating proper nouns, but all the rest should be translated. I love this documentary! Thank you!!!
DarkAgePearl 1 year ago 44
I don't mind translator's notes so long as they are shown before or after the show. I've only seen a few that do this, but I liked it because I could pause and read them before the actual show, or after it.
RahKitty 1 year ago
Loved your documentary. [Editors note: by loved he means "OMG EPIC!!!!!!!"]
angelkhrist 1 year ago
Instead of 1:44, "I thought he'd talk if I made him uncomfortable." works as well.
Nice to see the literal grammar looks completely natural to me now. That can't be good. Perhaps the only part of this for me to completely agree on though. How odd.
MGS imitation is a nice touch though.
tatsu751 1 year ago
One thing you didn't mention that annoys the hell out of me is the tendency to give characters different colored subtitles, even when they aren't speaking at the same time, which tends to be coordinated to their clothing or hair color, thus resulting in subtitles that blend in so much as to be unreadable! I think, though, that the reason people leave stuff in Japanese has mostly to do with the fetishization of the language and culture, as well as an overreaction to 4Kids et al.
Nerienea 1 year ago
Loved every second of it.
4:42 - You forgot a note: "hai" means "yes"
neildKoR 1 year ago
This documentary is spot on. Thankfully, it seems like nowadays some groups are doing it mostly right, in part probably because criticism like this, but most likely because the rise of speed subs and soft subs is forcing them to drop all the bullshit. It's just not technically possible to splatter the screen with weird fonts everywhere, and there's less time for long-ass TL notes.
DKnight768 1 year ago 2
@DKnight768 That just makes them worse. Since translator notes are actually good.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
@DrunkSamurai fansub notes are good for a show with lots of technical terms being thrown around where understanding them are necessary for following the show such as in hikaru no go and akagi
xBoyMercuryx 1 year ago
Approved.
lighter235 1 year ago
He's going a little overboard.
If you don't like the way fansubs are done, just buy legal localized DVDs with professional subtitles, and leave the over-the-top fansubs to the internet cliques that love them.
jbondsr 1 year ago
@jbondsr No, he's telling the truth
You're just too much of an egotistical dumbass to believe it
stupidstuffx 1 year ago
@jbondsr
The problem with that is that many shows don't have official DVD/BD/streaming releases, so fansubs are the only way to see them. Take "Touka Gettan" (2007), for example. Until I started re-releasing it earlier this year, the *only* way to see it was a fansub that exemplified pretty much all the traits that this documentary decries.
Zalis116 1 year ago
@Teal17ragon @Teal17ragon i think you missed the part about using an appropriate metaphor to replace the japanese. so if a joke is gonna require a bunch of reference notes for someone to understand, maybe you should substitute it for a joke that fits the context but readily understandable by a non-japanese audience.
also i don't think he is against all forms of reference notes, he's just saying that they are over-used and often are not needed. i fully agree with this
xBoyMercuryx 1 year ago
@xBoyMercuryx There's no reason to replace the Japanese when a translator note could do the same job better.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
@DrunkSamurai obviously you didn't listen to the reason. translator's notes are best doen as little as possible because they are very distracting. i remember watching a bleach fansub and like the top 3 inches of the screen would be chocked full of this stuff. and the longer the show went on, the more the fanboy translators kept the japanese
matwizard 1 year ago
@DrunkSamurai obviously you didn't listen to the reason. translator's notes are best done as little as possible because they are very distracting. i remember watching a bleach fansub and like the top 3 inches of the screen would be chocked full of this stuff. and the longer the show went on, the more the fanboy translators kept the japanese
xBoyMercuryx 1 year ago
@xBoyMercuryx Then you must not be that intelligent if you get distracted my translator notes. Also no. Many cannot be translated such as san, sama, kun, or chan. Anybody who does that is an idiot.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago
@DrunkSamurai it has not a damn thing to do with intelligence if one edns up being distracted by constantly having to flip one's eyes between the scene, explanatory text at the top of the screena dn story text at the bottom
and only an idiot thinks honourifics can't be translated. japanese aren't some people from mars whose language embodies concepts utterly alien to all other languages and cultures. it's an intelligent person who can translate well.
BoyMercuryX 1 year ago
@BoyMercuryX Because they are not distractions. Only an unintelligent person would think they are distracting. No. You really don't know shit. They cannot be translated.
DrunkSamurai 1 year ago