@fakeham hi good work...keep up the refutation of the ANTI TZM cult idiots...check my videos too...they really are nuts with there argumenst against us...and dont care about the dislikes.
Yep like people who tried to fly about 100 years ago... Nuts! how people can fly? It's impossible! have you ever seen people getting some how to the sky before? NO! so ofcours they were NUTS! how they can possibly think that if somthing not exist today can be acomplished in the future... what an idiots! lets be smart and continue to argue and find reasons why not! lets hate them and call them cult because they believe in trying new things that may be better. those crazy ass people!
@Gilkail85 i dont get your comment now ? Because in case you dont get ...I am a supoorted of TZM and TVP....and the people i describe crazy or stupid are the people who are against us. I mean the most claims i have heard against TZm are fucking stupid made by people who have no education at all or who cant use logic and reason...then there are the trolls ( people who just like to argue regardless of how ridiculous there position is) . And one of this is the user axe863
He makes the very erroneous error that we would still be infecting our kids minds with Viruses that claim man is a defective fallen dependent sinner who needs someone or something to come to his rescue, then we wonder why our society if full of dependent people. Religion is a mind infection of the worst kind and a scourge on humanity and the human spirit. Look up Pygmalion effect studies to understand why this creates the need for more police and more jails. Don't lie to your children!!
@donkisiko The normal state of TVP is equivalent to the extremely fragile state of a capitalist system. TVPs RBE will possess a singular optimizing agent who's allocation it must incorporate into its optimization. A Turing machine cannot be fully self referential/adaptive and be decidable. Not only is it insanely fragile due to lack of diversity, its also unsolvable.
@EclecticSceptic People being too lazy or arrogant or scared to "waste" their time correcting others who are clearly mistaken or disingenuous is a big part of what has made our world as inefficient and backward as it is.
Do you even have to debunk PeterWhitlock? Seriously, is any effort required in doing this? They guy is bat shit crazy and has the IQ level of a mentally challenged snail.
This is slightly back tracking but I just wanna add to this that Fresco is only one man lol; and as an engineer I and Fresco already know that no one man can have all the answers, he even mentioned it himself when he talked of Da vinci. He's JUST providing guidelines for a sustainable system; with the support of the world's best his system could easily be refined to something that would satisfy even your thirst for factual answers! And that's what he's aiming for... support!!
@donkisiko I dont think you understand that everything that he says has been debunked like 200 years ago in the economic journals. What he says about globalized resource allocation was debunked by Turing, Godel, Wolfram etc. etc etc
in romania we have a saying: "To realise how stupid one is one has to be a little smart". Dont dother with idiots like PW. PW inteligence = 1/ number of "stupid" in a sentence
This guy is stupid. Like wtf, seriously? You r the kind of people that are ensuring that these kinds of genuiss ideas cant happen cause idiots like you think that they are "stupid"
Well I'm guessing by the time TVP rechaes end stage we'll all be dead lol. It wouldn't be pratical to drive a manual car by then because they wouldn't be allowed in cities (specialist transport for that) and as for travelling to other cities trains more efficient. Nothings to say though they won't have retro museums people could go in, get a car and try it out then bring it back lol. If we said you can't jump off a cliff cus it's dangerous, would you be a slave?
@donkisiko well actually yes that would make a sentient being a slave, one could ask the person "is this wise for you to jump off the cliff??" But freedom of travel is important, if people do not have freedom of travel, then yes at worst a person is a slave at best a prisoner.
A wise sage once went to a king on the kings request.
The king said "Be my council, and you will have reputation, gold, women, and land"
The sage understood that the kings offer would take his freedom and thus replied
Whose to say you can't travel? I just said as a factor of safety cars would be removed from the cities infrastructure, the backing behind this is that over a million accidents occur every year. If people wish to drive cars there would be a potential to do so outside cities. Are you telling me that's not freedom? Are you telling conforming to that kind of society make you a slave? If so then being free is truly impossible and you was born a slave.
I understnd your reasoning however I don't see where you got the idea that humans would be couped in these cities and not allowed to travel if you watch the documentaries and videos in future *(future by design) you'll see he took trekking, adventuring and sight seeing into account. Just that city to city autonomous means of travel would be used for safety. Even then this idea is at the end stage RBE, we don't currently possess advanced enough navigation systems developed
However I'm sure it could easily be with enough research and resource, to a standard of safety worth changing for. Not being allowed to drive in the city doesn't make you slave, the same way not being allowed to drive in the park doesn't make you a slave; so long as it's justified (reducing deaths improving efficieny) and the majority agree with it, AND you have an alternative... what exactly is there to fault?
As for the story you gave, this isn't about possessional gains and isn't based upon common values of today like gold, fame, wealth and women (especially women) in an RBE Fresco proposes. It's about You, your community (everyone) and the world you live in. If you wish to look into that further I urge to watch the video's on TVP's website.
@donkisiko First off we are all born free, and by the age of 6 we have become socialized into slavery, the shackles may be invisible and self sustaining but it is slavery nonetheless.
Car accidents occur yes, but people also fall out of windows should we get rid of all windows?
Another question is that of private property, not just goods external to ourselves but our own bodies.
In a system without private property, self ownership is lost.
Okay well then from what you say we'll always be slaves, I'd rather be a slave in a RBE than in the current system, at least I wish that for my children
Comparing the number of deaths through windows to the number of deaths by car accidents?
You have your house, anything you make is yours ( a painting for example) and you have basic needs, the rest can be shared the same way a family share things. What's your point? This system isn't perfect but it's better than the one
We have now. As nice as that sounds, what incentive would the US have to spend that money on that? Rob a country of its resources via war and exploit it, or place your bets on science to find an answer when it hasn't yet and you already give them "enough" money? The world we live in is corrupt at the moment I'm afraid, we would need people that truly care for everyone to have that happen. And as you can see in the current climate that isn't the case.
I am not against the concept of post scarcity Donkisiko.
I would rather the US government spend 1 trillion + dollars a year on finding an unlimited (or nearly so) energy source so that all nations of the world could industrialize, than be spent on the war as is so.
Or a trip to the Kuiper belt, where we could place nuclear thrusters on some asteroids (with tech available in the 60's) ride them around past earth establishing a geosynchronous orbit
I watched a cooking show today and this guy said he likes nothing more than cooking and is content at the smiles and appreciation people show him when they eat his food, it's these kind of people that would be nurtured in the future ^^, he loves doing it not for the money, but for the self fulfillment and for people around him, spiritual recognition. It's that kind of drive that would get people searching for your proposed source of energy
@ScientificRepublic16 I comprehend the cliff question principle, however your point regarding freedom of travel is ridiculously overstated. By that premise we should all eschew roads as slavemakers when, in fact, whilst limiting direction of movement they increase efficiency and safety. They are a (mostly) freely available network as would be the best of public transportation systems in a better future. No ownership required, only the shared responsibility of resources for maintenance.
@donkisiko "Better to be a turtle waddling in the mud, then a shell adorned with the finest jewels in the world"
Freedom of movement is important, the current highway system is of course outdated, but to take away an individuals right of movement is not the answer.
Perhaps in the future land based vehicles could be replaced by aerial vehicles, this would not only free up land for the earth to recover but open up greater freedom of movement. In 50 years should our planet survive, don't you
@donkisiko think that alternatives to fuel will not only be out but also be ubiquitous?
The basic idea of TVP possesses merit
This is to say we are at least in appearance close to a point where energy production could be produced in such surplus that energy scarcity would be past tense.
Just like how Permaculture technologies are currently at the point where food scarcity can be made a thing of the past.
We may have computers that process weather data, but we do not understand cloud formation
But on that point there were specialist "adventuring" or off road manual vehicles planned for when people wish to tour the uninhabited areasv (Grand canyon, Niagra falls etc)
@mchattie2222 Thing is what if a police state arises (not denying that it already has)
but a police state with automated vehicles and public transport, lets say you are part of a resistance and that you already know you have to avoid public transportation because biometrics will immediately identify you and summon the authorities to your position.
@ScientificRepublic16 That won't be the case because the system is decentralized. Every "city" has its own central powerful computer system that coordinates the flow of resources between residential, manufacturing and agricultural areas alike. That way there is no central power in control of this system. It's automated and provides resources as they are requested -- in sensible quantities etc. Although I am not a fan of the project at large I agree with some of the ideas.
also jacque fresco in many of his interviews argues that the environment in which a person is brought up in defines the mind set and beleives of this person but if this is true how is the plane repetative environment which he is putting forward going to impact people growing up in this environment, man made environments, man made waterways, man made everything pretty much, this will destroy any creativity any individuality and in doing this will destroy what makes us human in the first place.
Martial arts, crafts, even comedy? And for the more humble people, being a fully commited housewife or a philosopher... before I even start this is just within the cities alone, you forget the project SPECIFICALLY advocates regenerating coral reefs, natural forests, animal habitats, marine life and preserving world heritage sights for people to travel to and learn about, research even... Please, in what way does this promote uniformity?? Because I fail to see the negative side of it.
Can I just also add that providing they have the capacity for it, nobody is limited to one area, A scientist can be a house wife, A Poet could be at the forefront of marine biology AND the music composing society; when you have the free time to do so, what's to stop you from making the most of it? This is the hardest thing to imagine at times because we're so glued into this system. But believe me The RBE socio system promotes individuality and creativity much more than this system.
the whole thing about the wall, which is actually doors which open on the arrival of the train is implemented in a huge bus terminal where i live in the UK and it works great as before they put in the system there where lots of accidents i fully support the common sense ideals of the venus project but i disagree with the lack of individuality jacque fresco argues we live in a fascist time but to take away peoples choice to live as they wish is fascism in its purest form.
Please define what you mean by lack of individuality? How would the social or environmental aspect of an RBE promote uniformity? Picture this in and an end stage RBE Fresco proposes: You're surrounded by nature where you live; individuality and creativity is promoted in classe along with important values like teamwork and dealing with stress/emotions etc. When you surpass basic education, you have the choice to pursue whatever you want,music, poetry, travelling the world, sports, mar
i try to live a life as a pacifist since leaving the army. but hearing someone like PeterWhitlock talk makes me want to hit him very hard. with a truck. with barbed wire on the front.
The maker of the other video Peterwhitlock is an idiot he diddnt even watch any of Jacques videos close enough to know what he's talking about. my god the guy cant even back any of his statements up with facts unless you count "ITS STUPID" as a fact. FUCKIN IDIOT.
your not that smart i'm guessing.... so il try my best to explain this to a 4 yr old... when you have a pendulum .. you sway it once ... it will travel the same direction velocity you are going... thus no total change in momentum... however when someone continues to sway it back and forth like a drunk driver.. the original momentum of the pendulum prevents.. any rapid swaying of the car in the opposite direction. that is what Jacque is saying. they are used in tall building constructs
@MHlvenok You have made my point using a thoughtful and educated human response with absolutely no understanding of what is going on in our society and you are allowed to vote. Please educate yourself. Do the work it requires to vote intellectually. Yes it requires WORK and research which most of the population does not want to do. If you are listening to talk shows or religious leaders this is not educating yourself. Look to other medias. I mean you are using Youtube this is at least a start.
Western religions are designed to control the masses through fear. You will go to hell if you do not do this or that. The wrath of god will be up on you if you don't do xyz. Western religion is one of the few organizations that understand human nature and how to control people. When religious leaders such as Mr Whitlock start loosing their power. They start to turn up the heat. Politicians do the same when they are loosing. Time to stop the fear and stand up against the Whitlocks of the world
The thing concerns me about TVP is have they taken human nature into consideration. Many humans love power and control over others. Idealists well they are idealists. They believe all people are good. This is why Communism failed the concept in an idealist world is nice they forgot about human nature. This is why Capitalism is failing. Pure capitalism eventually consumes itself and is not sustainable. Human nature will drive it to the extreme. You have to find a middle ground.
@LongTimeAtheist I agree with you. By taking in consideration human behavior we can predict the outcome of TVP (which will be a failed high-tech utopia). And indeed, the middle ground is what we try to keep, and I find it reasonable that since we are very near the extreme of capitalism, people want to make it back to that "balance" we need to keep our economic system in good shape.
@Redbloodedsky I find the concept very interesting. I also understand the possible failings. I see the wall street protests happening. I wonder how do we manage to change the system in a meaningful way without destroying what we have and bringing up the standard of living world wide. We need to look at all possibilities and embrace positive change. How do we get to that middle road and maintain it? Human nature pushes to one extream or another. Thank you for the intelligent conversation
@LongTimeAtheist The technology in a techno-system is just not all that dependable, and, as in Plato's Utopia—and, every Utopian system, since—it depends upon a caste system of laboring plebs or worker bees, and just as the big engine-driven agri-business tractors are profitable only on the near side of the equation, for, in the larger picture, use of them depends upon billions of BTU input from the prehistoric oil reserves
All VP persuasion depends on selling a part of a picture as a whole, . .
So is this for or against the TVP? Seems to me it shows the stupidity of Peter Whitlock he not knowing much about technology... Google is trying to get Nevada laws changed today to allow robotic cars to be driven. Whitlock says its a stupid idea? By definition any group that has the same ideals is a cult. Christians, TVP, Atheist, Muslims, Political groups. So cult is not necessarily a bad thing. Mr Whitlock being a christian. So one could say Mr Whitlock is a cult member. Just not very bright.
I've noticed in my life that "experts" usually don't like to showed up, keep to their dogmas, and are as unaccepting of real change as the medical field, or any other dumbed-down speciality. Cars can be modified/redesigned to be stable. Pendulum in cars: if it don't work, do somehting else fool! FIND A WORKNG SOUTION!!! Don't bitch about it!!
I've noticed in my life that "experts" usually don't like to showed up, keep to their dogmas, and are as unaccepting of real change as the medical field, or any other dumbed-down speciality. Cars can be modified/redesigned to be stable.
Dude.............. Put the bong down. Can you not hear your self? You dont even make sence. Listen man if you like the idea of being a common worker with out freedom then when the Venus Project begins you can keep you job while we are living life. Your a fucking Idiot. Stop making videos.
First a majority of people own cars because they have too. Public Transportation is not an option and opinions of others who don't own cars is low, inside America. There is all sort of accident avoidance technology, of course if people were intelligent enough not to drive when drunk or "having a few" there would be no need for laws. Technology has to step in because some laws just don't work. Pretty soon, there won't be traffic lights at all...
@dj4monie I love cars and love technology. I would own a car because its more convenient for me to do so. But that doesn't apply to everybody, look at all the appliance on wheels out there now. All those boring cars would disappear if public transportation was a REAL option for most people and you're treated like some weirdo if you didn't drive or own a car. When technology takes over manufacturing (and it will) what are you going to do with all the unemployed people? ????
I appreciate the effort of you standing up for Fresco and TVP, but this little trilogy of yours is kinda redundant, since it's obvious from the first few seconds of watching PWs video (or any other of his videos for that matter. seriously, check out his "ARK communities Pt1", it's hillarious) that the guy is mentally chalenged.
Thank you for this that guy was getting on my nerves. They key to VP is the idea of sharing all technology, most importantly free energy. If people are informed on a wide scale of what is possible then its easy to hold people accountable that may try to usurp the system. In essence giving the people as a whole the power rather than an elite class that is in the know and hijacks the best and brightest scientists.
Please link me to the peer reviewed papers which prove that capitalism "works".
There of course is no singular peer reviewed paper on a RBE but there are peer reviewed studies and statistically significant correlations for just about 100% of the claims that we make. Please be specific and I will provide proof to the best of my abilities.
@sumpeeps "There of course is no singular peer reviewed paper on a RBE but there are peer reviewed studies and statistically significant correlations for just about 100% of the claims that we make."
If you have the equivalent to a fully specified RBE model, why don't you comply it, feed it into a general model and test against this theoretical model and submit your findings for peer review. Do you think scientific ideas are just linearly summed.... every heard of non-linearities.
@sumpeeps "There of course is no singular peer reviewed paper on a RBE" What do you mean there is of course no peer reviewed paper on RBE.... TVP explicits states that all ideas that haven't been scientifically tested are worthless opinion. By TVP's own standards, TVP's claims are worthless opinion.
Do you really think that 70 years of planning and research from a professionally registered Engineer wouldn't be scientifically backed? And that TVP hasn't been enduring decades of constructive, scientific criticism?? Do you need someone to write a book for you to know that we already possess computers powerful enough to process weather data? Or monitor resources? Or materials that can be mass manufactured? Come on man, stop trolling and give some constructive criticism.
@donkisiko "Do you really think that 70 years of planning and research from a professionally registered Engineer wouldn't be scientifically backed?"......... Logical Fallacy : Argument from authority
"And that TVP hasn't been enduring decades of constructive, scientific criticism??"........ The lack of any falsifiable models published in peer reviewed journals makes rigorous scientific criticism of their RBE impossible.
I take your first point then, it's a given possibility we are all capable of many things. But taking into account this is a man whose been contracted by several companies to design and build/invent various solutions to modern day problem as a FACT; it leaves your argument with little standing in my opinion, but thats mine. However, and this is for your second point; you still havnt replied to my point, do you need a book or a critical review to see that the technology he bases his
His idea's upon are available with today's technology? Shape memory alloy's was discovered decades ago, the resource monitoring systems he talks of are already in use as we speak, mag lev trains are already in use in some countries, we already have aircraft, we already have cars, we already utilise marine city technology (Kansai international airport is an inexact example) which could be subject to improvement easliy with funding... care to disagree?? There already available technology
Technologies already account for more than 3/4's of Fresco's ideas, so tell me what more do you need? His specific designs are just that, designs, guidelines if you must, they are just based off efficient design, things don't have to look like that but they can, what use is him publishing a book about how he'd make a boat look for the professional scientific community to criticise? Boats have already been invented! It would be a waste of effort and time to.
Fresco doesn't need to prove his engineering prowess in my opinion, all he needs to and has done is demonstrate that these technologies are available. I forgot to mention robotics but even today robots are used to make cars completely from scratch, they can design a car but not extrude a house? So what technology of his do you need to see on paper?
I correct myself, not his technology. but what technology. Yes some of his idea's are extrapolations of technological developments (the civilian friendly hovercraft like invention that people can use to travel outside the city for exploring purposes without needing extensive training) or the complete conversion to robot run labour, but the number of these I could count in one hand and they would be solved within a few years of RBE being realised.
On what grounds can you say I don't understand? I took your point as a valid argument I could not counter, an simply voiced my opinion as I made clear; so what don't I understand?
@donkisiko o_O I countered it even before you commented. I understand now... science is your savior but Fresco is your god. Thats why you dont need a peer reviewed paper on RBE because Fresco>science.
Oh that's a really scientific argument you have there, Fresco is my god oh yeah 100% I didn't cross checking all the technology he was talking about, I didn't bother thinking would his proposal really work, I didn't try to constructively criticise his proposal... I just believed what he said was right. My degree in Mechanical Engineering was completely ignored. Wow man, I guess I'm not good enough yet. Anyway it was nice debating with you (:
@donkisiko I dont care that you have a degree in mechanical engineering. You are completely deficient in understanding logic. As a mechanical engineer, you must understand what non-linearities are..so why do you think that linearly summing up past models is sufficient to be prove a fully specified RBE model. What do you want me to criticize? The functional form that he utilized in his RBE model, the infeasibility of the RBE optimization mechanism..what do you want me to criticize without a model
What on earth are you talking about? Okay at this rate we're gonna keep going round in circles so can you please tell me precisely WHAT about Fresco's model you feel you'd want to see a peer reviewed paper on? The buildings? The Transportation mechanism? The city design? All these technologies already exist!!! So what more do you want? There's already peer reviewed papers on these. As for Fresco's extrapolations ( The floating cities, 97% automation labour, Unified resource monitoring)
And AI), they are just that! Extrapolations! You can't write a peer reviewed on extrapolations lol. Don't get me wrong I understand where you are coming from I myself would like to see precise details regarding his proposals; however what I DONT DO is completely disregard his idea's as impossible purely because he hasn't written a book about it; I have something called an open mind that doesn't necessarily believe 100% but acknowledges the possibility.
@donkisiko You mean he actually published a peer reviewed paper on his optimization mechanism and proofed it to be feasible and efficient under clustered extreme fluctuations!!!! Wowwwww......please tell me how he was able to reduce super-exponential computational complexity (made it tractable) with a singular hyper-computer and solve Turing's halting problem. This is an unbelievable discovery. Truly, Fresco is the greatest scientist to have ever lived. ;)
I'm no computer technician but I do know what you're trying to imply and I can say that in my opinion the computer's Fresco proposes don't necessarily have to be that advanced, it's a matter of using algorithms to designate certain decisions to certain conditions, something we already take advantage of today - This is artificial intelligence not to the extent where machines have self awareness lol, but where computers use equations to show facts not interpretations.
@donkisiko Fresco's Claim: (A RBE is superior to all other forms of economic organization) ...... Evidence: (Zero falsifiable models of RBE or Capitalism or all other forms)......Golden rule of TVP: (A strict adherence to scientific rationalism)...
For TVP to reach an untested conclusion without violating its strict adherence to scientific rationalism... Fresco must transcend scientific rationalism. Thus, Fresco> scientific rationalism.
@donkisiko For Fresco to transcend the scientific method, RBE's superiority must be axiomatic or Fresco has to exist outside of space-time aka he must be a god. Btw, I seriously doubt someone who has a degree in mechanical engineering can be this deficient in logic given the majors required understanding of mathematical logic.
Why do you resort to such childish jibes when this merely a discussion on the plausibility of a system? I haven't got time for that. You seem to imply that Fresco's model suggests a perfect world, that the computers will have to surpass today's by far, it is by no means a perfect world, it will have it's problems; however I feel it's a much better world than we have today simply because the mentality of humanity would be towards utilizing technology for all without money restrictions
Stop assuming that everything he suggests has to be improved to perfection (True human like AI and the like), the majority of his proposals I've said many times are due to things that already exists today, as for his extrapolations he never once implied machines would need to do anything more than monitor resources, manufacture, respond to situations its programmed to and inform humans what needs to be distributed where; computers already have this ability today lol. It will be work in
work in progress, it would take many years; but technology is still evolving, and systems would become more and more efficient; regardless of whether its in a non linear fashion or not. So now, not assuming this is some kind of idealogical perfect society, why do you feel this system would not any different if not worse to our current system?
*So now, not assuming this is some kind of idealogical perfect society... Why do you feel this system would not be any different if not worse than our current system?*
If it's marked as spam I can still read them... normally not the critic but that's awfully convenient lol; Sounds to me like you either can't be bothered to reply or you have no answer... I do have to admit this has been a lengthy debate haha, but all in the name of science eh ;]
@donkisiko I want other people to read it as well. Isnt TVP effectively dying after its split with its activist arm, TZM? If it is, theres no further point to debating this.
Why would you say it's dying? Just because it's lost followers who in my opinion are focusing more on opposing the system than changing it? I don't think it's dying, I just think it never was popular in the first place, mainly because people disregard it as nonsense or ideological merely because one or two concepts are beyond their everyday understanding. If you feel there is no point then so be it, but I for one still support this proposal and think it would lead to a better
@donkisiko "Do you need someone to write a book for you to know that we already possess computers powerful enough to process weather data? Or monitor resources? Or materials that can be mass manufactured?"................. What does this have to do with what I said?
"What does this have to do with what I said? " - > in reply to that, you implied you wanted an opportuniy for Fresco's proposal to be assessed by the scientific community. My argument was that the majority of technology he mentions in his proposal is just current technology applied in a more sustainable/environmental manner.
@donkisiko No, it isnt. There can be no supercomputer whose optimization is fully self-referential and be decidable ==> Gobel's incompleteness theorem. Also, given the fact that a global supercomputer cannot transform exponential computational complexity into polynomial complexity via decentralized mass parallel computation, its optimization time is infinite. etc etc ...
Lol... what part of majority don't you understand? Not all of the technology he mentions is available I never said otherwise, and if you watch and listen to him you'll notice time and time again he mentions that he also interpolates some of the potential technology we COULD possess; he is a futurist after all, but a scientifically and factually backed one at that. Fresco's proposal DOESN'T NEED a system whose optimization is fully self referential and decideable to work. althoug
@donkisiko Im going to say....Why is a RBE not fully self referential? Youre going to rightfully say.. No, you have to prove that it has to be fully referential for the argument to not be logically flawed. Then I'm going to say... Youre right and this exact logic applies to the superiority and feasibility of a RBE, they're making a positive claim and it must be statistically and logically verified before its held as "true" with high probability.
Okay I'm going to clarify a few things once again before even carrying on this discussion.
1. No I am not a computer scientist but I do have a keen interest in many areas of science and read up on what I don't know in any argument/discussion; what I DON'T do however is make technical arguments based on my limited knowledge, I make them based upon my understanding of the principles of the topic at hand (in this case computer science)
With the exception of your last comment. I never once said this proposal is "true", what I have said is what it suggests already has physical evidence to back it up. Must I give you references for everything Fresco talks about before you're satisfied? Now I'll carry on my argument as a reply to the other coments you've made.
Although that would be ideal, it's not a fundamental basis for a world similar to Fresco's proposal functioning. Again I repeat, even though we potentially cannot achieve all the technology Fresco interpolates, with the TVP kind of human centered mindset; we can live in a world much better than the one we live in today. That is my opinion. Besides this super computer you have a problem with, why do you feel this won't work?
@donkisiko "There can be no supercomputer whose optimization is fully self-referential and be decidable ==> Gobel's incompleteness theorem." I disagree with it because its proofed to be undecidable. I,also, disagree with it because I dont believe in things that have yet to be demonstrated to be "true" with high probability.
@donkisiko I find it extraordinarily ridiculous that a group of people who praise the superiority of science take something,the superiority and feasibility of a RBE, on pure faith. The human mind is a very messy thing, it can incorporate things that are purely contradictory.
I see your point and if Fresco just said "ah this world is messed I've got a better idea lets build the future and live happily ever after" I would agree with you. But he hasn't. The whole point of being a futurist is that you interpolate based upon current technology and development. He has given the OUTLINES to a system based upon currently available systems that in my opinion if worked on properly is a much better system than we have now.
@donkisiko The global financial crisis is a beautiful example of the fragility induced by nearly homogenized highly optimized critical agents non-linearly interacting in an ever-evolving environment. Under extreme crisis, individual reallocation due to shifts in risk aversion or perceived future reactions of other agents, induce extreme fluctuations and clustering which non-linearly feedback to cause computational complexity to feed on itself at an increasing rate.
Can you give me the links to the supposed debunking of an RBE? I tried googling the said names and topic but couldn't come up with anything. As for your analogy on RBE's infeasibility, I don't really agree with that as being a good comparison. Whereas the economy is constantly with terribly unpredictable trends it would be relatively much easier to monitor say global resource consumption, the aim being to distribute it as sustainably as possible.
In my opinion that's not something as increasingly complex as our current economic system, the only aspect of a resource management system that would need increasing complexity is its autonomous capabilities; and that would be work in progress, we wouldn't have it perfect right from the start, it would be continuously refined until say it can refine itself you know. A predecessor to this sort of system thats available today would be WATSON (IBM's analysis programme)
You keep treating this resource monitoring system like a machine that has all the answers lol, it would base its suggestions on statistics and it would still be left up to humans to make the final decisions; but there would be no hierarchy like there is today and no people who have keeping themselves in power as their main interest. I can see you're a guy that likes facts and that you refuse to support something that doesn't provide those in full detail. however unless you can provide
provide me with undeniable reasons as to why this proposal just would not work, I will not change my stance on asking you to at the very least acknowledge the plausibility of RBE's. The reliance upon computing seems to be your main concern but I say to a certain extent the decisions made by governments today are so heavily reliant on information gathered by computers that they would cease to exist without them; its just of course money and power play a role in those decisions too.
I stress again, these computers make suggestions not influenced by money, greed or a need to stay in power. But merely resources, if there's not enough oil it will tell you that, if one countries using too much rubber it will flag that up and suggest alternatives based upon its database, the list goes on but my point is this is all stuff based upon commonly used algorithms and not some unsolvable decision..Care to give me an example decision foreseeable in a RBE a computer cannot solve?
There's a saying I always refer to whenever someone introduces me to a new theory or topic and that is if you can't prove it disprove it, otherwise hold your peace and accept it as a possibility. So that is what I'm asking of you,and another thing is do you think the current system we have now is as good as its gonna get for humanity? And if not can you suggest a better alternative to our current system that aims to globalize a modern standard of living?
@donkisiko the axe863 guy is nuts...you cant argue with him...he makes misrepresentations or just irrational claims...he will not respond when you refute some of his talk he just starts another idiotic issue...and acts like his argument was never refuted etc...he self has no proof in his video only his own opionins...the guy is really funny how he is not logical at all :D but claims to be :D...i have some videos about him too showing how nuts he is
Lol I know but sometimes in order to fish out the real arguments and the real ideas you've just gotta try and take everything everyone says seriously; although their argument may be fundamentally flawed it might bring about some interesting questions I guess :P I don't know I just try not to disregard what people say haha.
@donkisiko Two questions: Are you a computer scientist? If can actually understand the arguments, would it cause you to lose faith in TVP? Given your prior comments, you are not a computer scientist because you have no idea what self referential means in the context of global optimization and you have no idea what intractability means. ...so what is the point of wasting my time with you if a) you don't understand it b). it wouldn't change your "opinion"
Again no I'm not but I can comprehend the implications of self referential computing and truly competent global opimization (if you're referring to the system responsible for the distribution of resources and labour power); and the fact you're aware I'm not and still use terminology that can at best only gain a partial understanding of your argument is quite amusing. It's within your interest I believe to get your message across as completely as possible.
I don't think I've wasted my time debating with you, on the contrary I've learnt a lot and you have provided some very valid arguments. But I feel where we differ is I've given TVP a chance by supporting what it stands for due to it's partially technical nature, while you've decided until it's actually made there's no hope for it and it should be just put in the trashcan. I'm not saying your way of thinking is wrong, I have no right to; what I am saying is that although your
Points (or some of them) are to as far as I've read valid. You seem to push TVP to perfection and if it isn't perfect it isn't worth trying. I disagree with that.
The monetary system we have now is going to collapse, sooner or later more and more currency's are going to collapse and we'll be in a turbulent situation where an alternative will need to be found. The problem with this is that nobody cares, economists only care about the system because thats what theyre paid to do.
And when the time for an alternative does come about, if we repeat the same mistake and make another monetary system, regardless of how long it will take that system is bound to collapse. So far TVP is the only RBE I've heard of that proposes a sustainable system and though I admit it's incomplete and partially based upon mere predictions. A system akin to it is plausible in my opinion and self referential computing isn't a requirement for it. So until you give me an argument
that completely or majorly proves the incompetence of this proposal I will continue to support it. I feel fresco hasn't given the answer, he's given us the "notes"; and it's up to us as human beings how we go about using those notes. I know my arguements aren't to your liking due to a lack of "technicality", but computer science is not the be all and end all of TVP there is a lot more substance to the proposal than that. But no seriously I appreciate and value your arguments!
@donkisiko Your view on moderation is nonsensical. Saying I agree with you axe, we cant build a machine that's 725% efficient, it can only be 109% efficient doesn't make your position anymore plausible. Unlike TVP, Economists actually build fully specified models that make testable predictions. I can thoroughly dissect and alter the models to ensure higher statistical validity, while a RBE's relative superiority and feasibility is purely speculative.
"What does this have to do with what I said? " - > in reply to that, you implied you wanted an opportuniy for Fresco's proposal to be assessed by the scientific community. My argument was that the majority of technology he mentions in his proposal is just current technology applied in a more sustainable/environmental manner.
@Juefawn Venus project is about a new civilization and a new structure engineering,a new space age society, a cult is 1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. Venus project is not about 1)devotion to a certain person 2) it is not about being sinister,it is about creating something bigger than a nation.Hope this helps.
@Juefawn ; a cult is and idea or notion placed forward by a person based on feelings and emotion based dictions. TVP is based on a scientific understanding of the natural world and the willingness to apply modern methods to social problems without the stumbling blocks of profit and human emotion that lead to things like racism, classism, war, starvation and other atrocities created by emotion driven dictions and the current money system.
This is absolutely naive nonsence and produces no constructive aspects! The day you spend your energies not trying to discredit others but by taking a positive direction towards the greater good of tis World, then it would be worth your communicating! Time is precious, so stop wasting yours and others and put it to good use, thank you.
peter your a wierdo grow the fuck up
shawnababin86 4 days ago
@fakeham hi good work...keep up the refutation of the ANTI TZM cult idiots...check my videos too...they really are nuts with there argumenst against us...and dont care about the dislikes.
thelion2430 2 weeks ago
@thelion2430
Yep like people who tried to fly about 100 years ago... Nuts! how people can fly? It's impossible! have you ever seen people getting some how to the sky before? NO! so ofcours they were NUTS! how they can possibly think that if somthing not exist today can be acomplished in the future... what an idiots! lets be smart and continue to argue and find reasons why not! lets hate them and call them cult because they believe in trying new things that may be better. those crazy ass people!
Gilkail85 3 days ago
@Gilkail85 i dont get your comment now ? Because in case you dont get ...I am a supoorted of TZM and TVP....and the people i describe crazy or stupid are the people who are against us. I mean the most claims i have heard against TZm are fucking stupid made by people who have no education at all or who cant use logic and reason...then there are the trolls ( people who just like to argue regardless of how ridiculous there position is) . And one of this is the user axe863
thelion2430 3 days ago
@thelion2430
Sorry, My mistake i'm from israel and my english is not good enough. At least we know Jacque is right about the language stuff :).
Gilkail85 3 days ago
He makes the very erroneous error that we would still be infecting our kids minds with Viruses that claim man is a defective fallen dependent sinner who needs someone or something to come to his rescue, then we wonder why our society if full of dependent people. Religion is a mind infection of the worst kind and a scourge on humanity and the human spirit. Look up Pygmalion effect studies to understand why this creates the need for more police and more jails. Don't lie to your children!!
MyITRcom 3 weeks ago
firstly it's illegal there are no laws in this idea dumbass.
RickAstley56 3 weeks ago
Peter W. sounds like he's making fun out of all this, almost trying to sound like a character of the film "Idiocracy"...
castaluis556 1 month ago
The car is a detail, and yes, cars will drive themselves.
Public transports are the future and the most efficients are trains.
GodEquals3 1 month ago
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@donkisiko The normal state of TVP is equivalent to the extremely fragile state of a capitalist system. TVPs RBE will possess a singular optimizing agent who's allocation it must incorporate into its optimization. A Turing machine cannot be fully self referential/adaptive and be decidable. Not only is it insanely fragile due to lack of diversity, its also unsolvable.
axe863 2 months ago
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axe863 2 months ago
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axe863 2 months ago
Fresco is good man.
johnyboy6405 2 months ago
Jesus christ whoever made that video sounds like a mental retard, why would you bother disproving him.
EclecticSceptic 2 months ago
@EclecticSceptic People being too lazy or arrogant or scared to "waste" their time correcting others who are clearly mistaken or disingenuous is a big part of what has made our world as inefficient and backward as it is.
alanpgoodwin 1 month ago
@alanpgoodwin I agree with you, but this guy sounds comically stupid.
EclecticSceptic 1 month ago
Do you even have to debunk PeterWhitlock? Seriously, is any effort required in doing this? They guy is bat shit crazy and has the IQ level of a mentally challenged snail.
handyandyradio 2 months ago
@axe863
This is slightly back tracking but I just wanna add to this that Fresco is only one man lol; and as an engineer I and Fresco already know that no one man can have all the answers, he even mentioned it himself when he talked of Da vinci. He's JUST providing guidelines for a sustainable system; with the support of the world's best his system could easily be refined to something that would satisfy even your thirst for factual answers! And that's what he's aiming for... support!!
donkisiko 2 months ago
@donkisiko I dont think you understand that everything that he says has been debunked like 200 years ago in the economic journals. What he says about globalized resource allocation was debunked by Turing, Godel, Wolfram etc. etc etc
axe863 2 months ago
irrelevant... and those cars are well known as safe cars... cockroach automobiles... pessimist videos of yours, total waste of time
carloandreral 2 months ago
in romania we have a saying: "To realise how stupid one is one has to be a little smart". Dont dother with idiots like PW. PW inteligence = 1/ number of "stupid" in a sentence
xante8 2 months ago
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@xante8 This applies to TZM/TVP proponents as well.
axe863 2 months ago
This guy is stupid. Like wtf, seriously? You r the kind of people that are ensuring that these kinds of genuiss ideas cant happen cause idiots like you think that they are "stupid"
rastaR00STER 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
lol wow... theyre no longer marked as spam... hahahaha
axe863 3 months ago
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ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
My question is will I still have the right to use a manual car?
Or will I just be a slave?
ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
Well I'm guessing by the time TVP rechaes end stage we'll all be dead lol. It wouldn't be pratical to drive a manual car by then because they wouldn't be allowed in cities (specialist transport for that) and as for travelling to other cities trains more efficient. Nothings to say though they won't have retro museums people could go in, get a car and try it out then bring it back lol. If we said you can't jump off a cliff cus it's dangerous, would you be a slave?
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko well actually yes that would make a sentient being a slave, one could ask the person "is this wise for you to jump off the cliff??" But freedom of travel is important, if people do not have freedom of travel, then yes at worst a person is a slave at best a prisoner.
A wise sage once went to a king on the kings request.
The king said "Be my council, and you will have reputation, gold, women, and land"
The sage understood that the kings offer would take his freedom and thus replied
ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
Whose to say you can't travel? I just said as a factor of safety cars would be removed from the cities infrastructure, the backing behind this is that over a million accidents occur every year. If people wish to drive cars there would be a potential to do so outside cities. Are you telling me that's not freedom? Are you telling conforming to that kind of society make you a slave? If so then being free is truly impossible and you was born a slave.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
I understnd your reasoning however I don't see where you got the idea that humans would be couped in these cities and not allowed to travel if you watch the documentaries and videos in future *(future by design) you'll see he took trekking, adventuring and sight seeing into account. Just that city to city autonomous means of travel would be used for safety. Even then this idea is at the end stage RBE, we don't currently possess advanced enough navigation systems developed
donkisiko 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
However I'm sure it could easily be with enough research and resource, to a standard of safety worth changing for. Not being allowed to drive in the city doesn't make you slave, the same way not being allowed to drive in the park doesn't make you a slave; so long as it's justified (reducing deaths improving efficieny) and the majority agree with it, AND you have an alternative... what exactly is there to fault?
donkisiko 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
As for the story you gave, this isn't about possessional gains and isn't based upon common values of today like gold, fame, wealth and women (especially women) in an RBE Fresco proposes. It's about You, your community (everyone) and the world you live in. If you wish to look into that further I urge to watch the video's on TVP's website.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko First off we are all born free, and by the age of 6 we have become socialized into slavery, the shackles may be invisible and self sustaining but it is slavery nonetheless.
Car accidents occur yes, but people also fall out of windows should we get rid of all windows?
Another question is that of private property, not just goods external to ourselves but our own bodies.
In a system without private property, self ownership is lost.
no self ownership = collectivism
collectivism =
ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
Okay well then from what you say we'll always be slaves, I'd rather be a slave in a RBE than in the current system, at least I wish that for my children
Comparing the number of deaths through windows to the number of deaths by car accidents?
You have your house, anything you make is yours ( a painting for example) and you have basic needs, the rest can be shared the same way a family share things. What's your point? This system isn't perfect but it's better than the one
donkisiko 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
We have now. As nice as that sounds, what incentive would the US have to spend that money on that? Rob a country of its resources via war and exploit it, or place your bets on science to find an answer when it hasn't yet and you already give them "enough" money? The world we live in is corrupt at the moment I'm afraid, we would need people that truly care for everyone to have that happen. And as you can see in the current climate that isn't the case.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko collectivism = totalitarianism.
I am not against the concept of post scarcity Donkisiko.
I would rather the US government spend 1 trillion + dollars a year on finding an unlimited (or nearly so) energy source so that all nations of the world could industrialize, than be spent on the war as is so.
Or a trip to the Kuiper belt, where we could place nuclear thrusters on some asteroids (with tech available in the 60's) ride them around past earth establishing a geosynchronous orbit
ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
@donkisiko between earth and mars and increasing gold/silver/iron production by 1000-10000 times.
But simultaneously I like the idea of owning a home, or running a store and making baked goods for the locals.
ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
I watched a cooking show today and this guy said he likes nothing more than cooking and is content at the smiles and appreciation people show him when they eat his food, it's these kind of people that would be nurtured in the future ^^, he loves doing it not for the money, but for the self fulfillment and for people around him, spiritual recognition. It's that kind of drive that would get people searching for your proposed source of energy
donkisiko 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16 I comprehend the cliff question principle, however your point regarding freedom of travel is ridiculously overstated. By that premise we should all eschew roads as slavemakers when, in fact, whilst limiting direction of movement they increase efficiency and safety. They are a (mostly) freely available network as would be the best of public transportation systems in a better future. No ownership required, only the shared responsibility of resources for maintenance.
alanpgoodwin 1 month ago
@donkisiko "Better to be a turtle waddling in the mud, then a shell adorned with the finest jewels in the world"
Freedom of movement is important, the current highway system is of course outdated, but to take away an individuals right of movement is not the answer.
Perhaps in the future land based vehicles could be replaced by aerial vehicles, this would not only free up land for the earth to recover but open up greater freedom of movement. In 50 years should our planet survive, don't you
ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
@donkisiko think that alternatives to fuel will not only be out but also be ubiquitous?
The basic idea of TVP possesses merit
This is to say we are at least in appearance close to a point where energy production could be produced in such surplus that energy scarcity would be past tense.
Just like how Permaculture technologies are currently at the point where food scarcity can be made a thing of the past.
We may have computers that process weather data, but we do not understand cloud formation
ScientificRepublic16 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16
But on that point there were specialist "adventuring" or off road manual vehicles planned for when people wish to tour the uninhabited areasv (Grand canyon, Niagra falls etc)
donkisiko 3 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16 you have a manual car because of slavery how about that hahahaha.
mchattie2222 2 months ago
@mchattie2222 Thing is what if a police state arises (not denying that it already has)
but a police state with automated vehicles and public transport, lets say you are part of a resistance and that you already know you have to avoid public transportation because biometrics will immediately identify you and summon the authorities to your position.
ScientificRepublic16 2 months ago
@mchattie2222
All you have is personal transportation then, but what if a enforcer for the powers that be can use a remote control and just shut your car off??
A resource based economy as I see it is dangerous do to the complete and total centralization of powers required to spread said resources.
ScientificRepublic16 2 months ago
@ScientificRepublic16 That won't be the case because the system is decentralized. Every "city" has its own central powerful computer system that coordinates the flow of resources between residential, manufacturing and agricultural areas alike. That way there is no central power in control of this system. It's automated and provides resources as they are requested -- in sensible quantities etc. Although I am not a fan of the project at large I agree with some of the ideas.
ClaudiusJovianus 2 months ago
Eppur si muove.. (And yet it moves) Galileo Galilei.
MrPepe123abc 3 months ago
also jacque fresco in many of his interviews argues that the environment in which a person is brought up in defines the mind set and beleives of this person but if this is true how is the plane repetative environment which he is putting forward going to impact people growing up in this environment, man made environments, man made waterways, man made everything pretty much, this will destroy any creativity any individuality and in doing this will destroy what makes us human in the first place.
MrConcj 3 months ago
@MrConcj
Martial arts, crafts, even comedy? And for the more humble people, being a fully commited housewife or a philosopher... before I even start this is just within the cities alone, you forget the project SPECIFICALLY advocates regenerating coral reefs, natural forests, animal habitats, marine life and preserving world heritage sights for people to travel to and learn about, research even... Please, in what way does this promote uniformity?? Because I fail to see the negative side of it.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko
Can I just also add that providing they have the capacity for it, nobody is limited to one area, A scientist can be a house wife, A Poet could be at the forefront of marine biology AND the music composing society; when you have the free time to do so, what's to stop you from making the most of it? This is the hardest thing to imagine at times because we're so glued into this system. But believe me The RBE socio system promotes individuality and creativity much more than this system.
donkisiko 3 months ago
the whole thing about the wall, which is actually doors which open on the arrival of the train is implemented in a huge bus terminal where i live in the UK and it works great as before they put in the system there where lots of accidents i fully support the common sense ideals of the venus project but i disagree with the lack of individuality jacque fresco argues we live in a fascist time but to take away peoples choice to live as they wish is fascism in its purest form.
MrConcj 3 months ago
@MrConcj
Please define what you mean by lack of individuality? How would the social or environmental aspect of an RBE promote uniformity? Picture this in and an end stage RBE Fresco proposes: You're surrounded by nature where you live; individuality and creativity is promoted in classe along with important values like teamwork and dealing with stress/emotions etc. When you surpass basic education, you have the choice to pursue whatever you want,music, poetry, travelling the world, sports, mar
donkisiko 3 months ago
don´t talk about Mr Fresco, stupid man!
frandance 3 months ago
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@hk8909 giving you a thumbs up! for that comment.
TheDebtisslavery 3 months ago
i try to live a life as a pacifist since leaving the army. but hearing someone like PeterWhitlock talk makes me want to hit him very hard. with a truck. with barbed wire on the front.
TheDebtisslavery 3 months ago
The maker of the other video Peterwhitlock is an idiot he diddnt even watch any of Jacques videos close enough to know what he's talking about. my god the guy cant even back any of his statements up with facts unless you count "ITS STUPID" as a fact. FUCKIN IDIOT.
libbotoppo 3 months ago
Naturally you feel threatened, because in the future that Mr. Fresco describes, your level of ignorance and stupidity will be obsolete.
gugenheim84 3 months ago
MUTE
MrUberSpanky 4 months ago
your not that smart i'm guessing.... so il try my best to explain this to a 4 yr old... when you have a pendulum .. you sway it once ... it will travel the same direction velocity you are going... thus no total change in momentum... however when someone continues to sway it back and forth like a drunk driver.. the original momentum of the pendulum prevents.. any rapid swaying of the car in the opposite direction. that is what Jacque is saying. they are used in tall building constructs
DrLafranz 4 months ago 2
Stupid rubbish.
You are concerning about the shapes of a car or any other little aspect instead of concerning with the biggest aspect:
RESOURCE BASE ECONOMY, Well developed cities, sustainability...
MrMetalMayhem 4 months ago 6
Why do you even bother? The commentator makes him self sound "stupid, really stopid', without the added help of your video.
bubbabubbabubba100 4 months ago 2
Purest example of a dichotomy.
A video on a clear thinking unrestrained mind
uploaded by a dick.
morklind 4 months ago 2
non-sense BS
MHlvenok 4 months ago
@MHlvenok You have made my point using a thoughtful and educated human response with absolutely no understanding of what is going on in our society and you are allowed to vote. Please educate yourself. Do the work it requires to vote intellectually. Yes it requires WORK and research which most of the population does not want to do. If you are listening to talk shows or religious leaders this is not educating yourself. Look to other medias. I mean you are using Youtube this is at least a start.
LongTimeAtheist 4 months ago
Western religions are designed to control the masses through fear. You will go to hell if you do not do this or that. The wrath of god will be up on you if you don't do xyz. Western religion is one of the few organizations that understand human nature and how to control people. When religious leaders such as Mr Whitlock start loosing their power. They start to turn up the heat. Politicians do the same when they are loosing. Time to stop the fear and stand up against the Whitlocks of the world
LongTimeAtheist 4 months ago
The thing concerns me about TVP is have they taken human nature into consideration. Many humans love power and control over others. Idealists well they are idealists. They believe all people are good. This is why Communism failed the concept in an idealist world is nice they forgot about human nature. This is why Capitalism is failing. Pure capitalism eventually consumes itself and is not sustainable. Human nature will drive it to the extreme. You have to find a middle ground.
LongTimeAtheist 4 months ago
@LongTimeAtheist I agree with you. By taking in consideration human behavior we can predict the outcome of TVP (which will be a failed high-tech utopia). And indeed, the middle ground is what we try to keep, and I find it reasonable that since we are very near the extreme of capitalism, people want to make it back to that "balance" we need to keep our economic system in good shape.
Redbloodedsky 4 months ago
@Redbloodedsky I find the concept very interesting. I also understand the possible failings. I see the wall street protests happening. I wonder how do we manage to change the system in a meaningful way without destroying what we have and bringing up the standard of living world wide. We need to look at all possibilities and embrace positive change. How do we get to that middle road and maintain it? Human nature pushes to one extream or another. Thank you for the intelligent conversation
LongTimeAtheist 4 months ago
@LongTimeAtheist The technology in a techno-system is just not all that dependable, and, as in Plato's Utopia—and, every Utopian system, since—it depends upon a caste system of laboring plebs or worker bees, and just as the big engine-driven agri-business tractors are profitable only on the near side of the equation, for, in the larger picture, use of them depends upon billions of BTU input from the prehistoric oil reserves
All VP persuasion depends on selling a part of a picture as a whole, . .
phillipgaley 4 months ago
@LongTimeAtheist . . . . All VP (Venus Project) persuasion depends on selling a part of a picture as a whole, . .
phillipgaley 4 months ago
So is this for or against the TVP? Seems to me it shows the stupidity of Peter Whitlock he not knowing much about technology... Google is trying to get Nevada laws changed today to allow robotic cars to be driven. Whitlock says its a stupid idea? By definition any group that has the same ideals is a cult. Christians, TVP, Atheist, Muslims, Political groups. So cult is not necessarily a bad thing. Mr Whitlock being a christian. So one could say Mr Whitlock is a cult member. Just not very bright.
LongTimeAtheist 4 months ago
I've noticed in my life that "experts" usually don't like to showed up, keep to their dogmas, and are as unaccepting of real change as the medical field, or any other dumbed-down speciality. Cars can be modified/redesigned to be stable. Pendulum in cars: if it don't work, do somehting else fool! FIND A WORKNG SOUTION!!! Don't bitch about it!!
WolfeBear 4 months ago
I've noticed in my life that "experts" usually don't like to showed up, keep to their dogmas, and are as unaccepting of real change as the medical field, or any other dumbed-down speciality. Cars can be modified/redesigned to be stable.
WolfeBear 4 months ago
Dude.............. Put the bong down. Can you not hear your self? You dont even make sence. Listen man if you like the idea of being a common worker with out freedom then when the Venus Project begins you can keep you job while we are living life. Your a fucking Idiot. Stop making videos.
kren2012 4 months ago 2
mouth breathing moronic dribble
photowist 4 months ago
This video and the comments are a great example of people ignorance,... it really shows how you are being brought reflects your way of thinking..
Amstrup77 4 months ago
you are out of your mind!
Mr Fresco is too much for your brain.
go to school.
frandance 4 months ago 2
All these comments are ignorant. This video has no point at all. You should try doing better research. Dickbuttkiss
40calmyronveli 5 months ago 2
So Peter Whitlock is a bit of a moron it seems.
LeonDawson11 5 months ago
First a majority of people own cars because they have too. Public Transportation is not an option and opinions of others who don't own cars is low, inside America. There is all sort of accident avoidance technology, of course if people were intelligent enough not to drive when drunk or "having a few" there would be no need for laws. Technology has to step in because some laws just don't work. Pretty soon, there won't be traffic lights at all...
dj4monie 5 months ago
@dj4monie I love cars and love technology. I would own a car because its more convenient for me to do so. But that doesn't apply to everybody, look at all the appliance on wheels out there now. All those boring cars would disappear if public transportation was a REAL option for most people and you're treated like some weirdo if you didn't drive or own a car. When technology takes over manufacturing (and it will) what are you going to do with all the unemployed people? ????
dj4monie 5 months ago
Jacque is like Obywan Canoby
xRussianButcher 5 months ago
Cars? gas? this all costs MONEY !
How can VENUS not have Money !
WTF
xRussianButcher 5 months ago
@xRussianButcher if there is no "money" it cant cost any shit dude.
rebelpy 5 months ago
I appreciate the effort of you standing up for Fresco and TVP, but this little trilogy of yours is kinda redundant, since it's obvious from the first few seconds of watching PWs video (or any other of his videos for that matter. seriously, check out his "ARK communities Pt1", it's hillarious) that the guy is mentally chalenged.
Nikola85ZgCRO 5 months ago
Thank you for this that guy was getting on my nerves. They key to VP is the idea of sharing all technology, most importantly free energy. If people are informed on a wide scale of what is possible then its easy to hold people accountable that may try to usurp the system. In essence giving the people as a whole the power rather than an elite class that is in the know and hijacks the best and brightest scientists.
EFFIN14 5 months ago
IS vp a cult? What makes venus project distinct from a cult?
Juefawn 5 months ago
@Juefawn
That isn't how logic works, you need to be asking "what makes TVP a cult?" The burden of proof is on the positive claim.
fakeham 5 months ago 3
@fakeham When TVP makes the claim that RBE is superior to capitalism... the burden of proof is on the individual making the positive claim.
So please link me to TVPs peer reviewed research papers on RBE and capitalistic crisis
axe863 5 months ago
@axe863
Please link me to the peer reviewed papers which prove that capitalism "works".
There of course is no singular peer reviewed paper on a RBE but there are peer reviewed studies and statistically significant correlations for just about 100% of the claims that we make. Please be specific and I will provide proof to the best of my abilities.
sumpeeps 5 months ago
@sumpeeps "There of course is no singular peer reviewed paper on a RBE but there are peer reviewed studies and statistically significant correlations for just about 100% of the claims that we make."
If you have the equivalent to a fully specified RBE model, why don't you comply it, feed it into a general model and test against this theoretical model and submit your findings for peer review. Do you think scientific ideas are just linearly summed.... every heard of non-linearities.
axe863 3 months ago
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@sumpeeps "There of course is no singular peer reviewed paper on a RBE" What do you mean there is of course no peer reviewed paper on RBE.... TVP explicits states that all ideas that haven't been scientifically tested are worthless opinion. By TVP's own standards, TVP's claims are worthless opinion.
HAHAHAHA
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
Do you really think that 70 years of planning and research from a professionally registered Engineer wouldn't be scientifically backed? And that TVP hasn't been enduring decades of constructive, scientific criticism?? Do you need someone to write a book for you to know that we already possess computers powerful enough to process weather data? Or monitor resources? Or materials that can be mass manufactured? Come on man, stop trolling and give some constructive criticism.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko "Do you really think that 70 years of planning and research from a professionally registered Engineer wouldn't be scientifically backed?"......... Logical Fallacy : Argument from authority
"And that TVP hasn't been enduring decades of constructive, scientific criticism??"........ The lack of any falsifiable models published in peer reviewed journals makes rigorous scientific criticism of their RBE impossible.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
I take your first point then, it's a given possibility we are all capable of many things. But taking into account this is a man whose been contracted by several companies to design and build/invent various solutions to modern day problem as a FACT; it leaves your argument with little standing in my opinion, but thats mine. However, and this is for your second point; you still havnt replied to my point, do you need a book or a critical review to see that the technology he bases his
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
His idea's upon are available with today's technology? Shape memory alloy's was discovered decades ago, the resource monitoring systems he talks of are already in use as we speak, mag lev trains are already in use in some countries, we already have aircraft, we already have cars, we already utilise marine city technology (Kansai international airport is an inexact example) which could be subject to improvement easliy with funding... care to disagree?? There already available technology
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
Technologies already account for more than 3/4's of Fresco's ideas, so tell me what more do you need? His specific designs are just that, designs, guidelines if you must, they are just based off efficient design, things don't have to look like that but they can, what use is him publishing a book about how he'd make a boat look for the professional scientific community to criticise? Boats have already been invented! It would be a waste of effort and time to.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
Fresco doesn't need to prove his engineering prowess in my opinion, all he needs to and has done is demonstrate that these technologies are available. I forgot to mention robotics but even today robots are used to make cars completely from scratch, they can design a car but not extrude a house? So what technology of his do you need to see on paper?
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko
I correct myself, not his technology. but what technology. Yes some of his idea's are extrapolations of technological developments (the civilian friendly hovercraft like invention that people can use to travel outside the city for exploring purposes without needing extensive training) or the complete conversion to robot run labour, but the number of these I could count in one hand and they would be solved within a few years of RBE being realised.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko You misunderstand what the logical fallacy of argument from authority really means.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
On what grounds can you say I don't understand? I took your point as a valid argument I could not counter, an simply voiced my opinion as I made clear; so what don't I understand?
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
And you also fail to reply and counter my argument about there being no need for a peer reviewed publication of TVP.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko o_O I countered it even before you commented. I understand now... science is your savior but Fresco is your god. Thats why you dont need a peer reviewed paper on RBE because Fresco>science.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
Oh that's a really scientific argument you have there, Fresco is my god oh yeah 100% I didn't cross checking all the technology he was talking about, I didn't bother thinking would his proposal really work, I didn't try to constructively criticise his proposal... I just believed what he said was right. My degree in Mechanical Engineering was completely ignored. Wow man, I guess I'm not good enough yet. Anyway it was nice debating with you (:
donkisiko 3 months ago
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@donkisiko I dont care that you have a degree in mechanical engineering. You are completely deficient in understanding logic. As a mechanical engineer, you must understand what non-linearities are..so why do you think that linearly summing up past models is sufficient to be prove a fully specified RBE model. What do you want me to criticize? The functional form that he utilized in his RBE model, the infeasibility of the RBE optimization mechanism..what do you want me to criticize without a model
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
What on earth are you talking about? Okay at this rate we're gonna keep going round in circles so can you please tell me precisely WHAT about Fresco's model you feel you'd want to see a peer reviewed paper on? The buildings? The Transportation mechanism? The city design? All these technologies already exist!!! So what more do you want? There's already peer reviewed papers on these. As for Fresco's extrapolations ( The floating cities, 97% automation labour, Unified resource monitoring)
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
And AI), they are just that! Extrapolations! You can't write a peer reviewed on extrapolations lol. Don't get me wrong I understand where you are coming from I myself would like to see precise details regarding his proposals; however what I DONT DO is completely disregard his idea's as impossible purely because he hasn't written a book about it; I have something called an open mind that doesn't necessarily believe 100% but acknowledges the possibility.
donkisiko 3 months ago
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@donkisiko You mean he actually published a peer reviewed paper on his optimization mechanism and proofed it to be feasible and efficient under clustered extreme fluctuations!!!! Wowwwww......please tell me how he was able to reduce super-exponential computational complexity (made it tractable) with a singular hyper-computer and solve Turing's halting problem. This is an unbelievable discovery. Truly, Fresco is the greatest scientist to have ever lived. ;)
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
I'm no computer technician but I do know what you're trying to imply and I can say that in my opinion the computer's Fresco proposes don't necessarily have to be that advanced, it's a matter of using algorithms to designate certain decisions to certain conditions, something we already take advantage of today - This is artificial intelligence not to the extent where machines have self awareness lol, but where computers use equations to show facts not interpretations.
donkisiko 3 months ago
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@donkisiko Fresco's Claim: (A RBE is superior to all other forms of economic organization) ...... Evidence: (Zero falsifiable models of RBE or Capitalism or all other forms)......Golden rule of TVP: (A strict adherence to scientific rationalism)...
For TVP to reach an untested conclusion without violating its strict adherence to scientific rationalism... Fresco must transcend scientific rationalism. Thus, Fresco> scientific rationalism.
axe863 3 months ago
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donkisiko 3 months ago
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@donkisiko For Fresco to transcend the scientific method, RBE's superiority must be axiomatic or Fresco has to exist outside of space-time aka he must be a god. Btw, I seriously doubt someone who has a degree in mechanical engineering can be this deficient in logic given the majors required understanding of mathematical logic.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
Why do you resort to such childish jibes when this merely a discussion on the plausibility of a system? I haven't got time for that. You seem to imply that Fresco's model suggests a perfect world, that the computers will have to surpass today's by far, it is by no means a perfect world, it will have it's problems; however I feel it's a much better world than we have today simply because the mentality of humanity would be towards utilizing technology for all without money restrictions
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
Stop assuming that everything he suggests has to be improved to perfection (True human like AI and the like), the majority of his proposals I've said many times are due to things that already exists today, as for his extrapolations he never once implied machines would need to do anything more than monitor resources, manufacture, respond to situations its programmed to and inform humans what needs to be distributed where; computers already have this ability today lol. It will be work in
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
work in progress, it would take many years; but technology is still evolving, and systems would become more and more efficient; regardless of whether its in a non linear fashion or not. So now, not assuming this is some kind of idealogical perfect society, why do you feel this system would not any different if not worse to our current system?
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
*So now, not assuming this is some kind of idealogical perfect society... Why do you feel this system would not be any different if not worse than our current system?*
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko I would like reply to you but my comments will most likely just be deleted or marked as spam. Look at my previous comments.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
If it's marked as spam I can still read them... normally not the critic but that's awfully convenient lol; Sounds to me like you either can't be bothered to reply or you have no answer... I do have to admit this has been a lengthy debate haha, but all in the name of science eh ;]
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko I want other people to read it as well. Isnt TVP effectively dying after its split with its activist arm, TZM? If it is, theres no further point to debating this.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
Why would you say it's dying? Just because it's lost followers who in my opinion are focusing more on opposing the system than changing it? I don't think it's dying, I just think it never was popular in the first place, mainly because people disregard it as nonsense or ideological merely because one or two concepts are beyond their everyday understanding. If you feel there is no point then so be it, but I for one still support this proposal and think it would lead to a better
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
place than we have now. I never once implied it would be perfect, and never meant to.
donkisiko 3 months ago
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@donkisiko "Do you need someone to write a book for you to know that we already possess computers powerful enough to process weather data? Or monitor resources? Or materials that can be mass manufactured?"................. What does this have to do with what I said?
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
"What does this have to do with what I said? " - > in reply to that, you implied you wanted an opportuniy for Fresco's proposal to be assessed by the scientific community. My argument was that the majority of technology he mentions in his proposal is just current technology applied in a more sustainable/environmental manner.
donkisiko 3 months ago
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@donkisiko No, it isnt. There can be no supercomputer whose optimization is fully self-referential and be decidable ==> Gobel's incompleteness theorem. Also, given the fact that a global supercomputer cannot transform exponential computational complexity into polynomial complexity via decentralized mass parallel computation, its optimization time is infinite. etc etc ...
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
Lol... what part of majority don't you understand? Not all of the technology he mentions is available I never said otherwise, and if you watch and listen to him you'll notice time and time again he mentions that he also interpolates some of the potential technology we COULD possess; he is a futurist after all, but a scientifically and factually backed one at that. Fresco's proposal DOESN'T NEED a system whose optimization is fully self referential and decideable to work. althoug
donkisiko 3 months ago
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@donkisiko Im going to say....Why is a RBE not fully self referential? Youre going to rightfully say.. No, you have to prove that it has to be fully referential for the argument to not be logically flawed. Then I'm going to say... Youre right and this exact logic applies to the superiority and feasibility of a RBE, they're making a positive claim and it must be statistically and logically verified before its held as "true" with high probability.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
Okay I'm going to clarify a few things once again before even carrying on this discussion.
1. No I am not a computer scientist but I do have a keen interest in many areas of science and read up on what I don't know in any argument/discussion; what I DON'T do however is make technical arguments based on my limited knowledge, I make them based upon my understanding of the principles of the topic at hand (in this case computer science)
2. I agree with the point you made above with
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
With the exception of your last comment. I never once said this proposal is "true", what I have said is what it suggests already has physical evidence to back it up. Must I give you references for everything Fresco talks about before you're satisfied? Now I'll carry on my argument as a reply to the other coments you've made.
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
Although that would be ideal, it's not a fundamental basis for a world similar to Fresco's proposal functioning. Again I repeat, even though we potentially cannot achieve all the technology Fresco interpolates, with the TVP kind of human centered mindset; we can live in a world much better than the one we live in today. That is my opinion. Besides this super computer you have a problem with, why do you feel this won't work?
donkisiko 3 months ago
@donkisiko "There can be no supercomputer whose optimization is fully self-referential and be decidable ==> Gobel's incompleteness theorem." I disagree with it because its proofed to be undecidable. I,also, disagree with it because I dont believe in things that have yet to be demonstrated to be "true" with high probability.
axe863 3 months ago
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@donkisiko I find it extraordinarily ridiculous that a group of people who praise the superiority of science take something,the superiority and feasibility of a RBE, on pure faith. The human mind is a very messy thing, it can incorporate things that are purely contradictory.
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
I see your point and if Fresco just said "ah this world is messed I've got a better idea lets build the future and live happily ever after" I would agree with you. But he hasn't. The whole point of being a futurist is that you interpolate based upon current technology and development. He has given the OUTLINES to a system based upon currently available systems that in my opinion if worked on properly is a much better system than we have now.
donkisiko 2 months ago
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@donkisiko The global financial crisis is a beautiful example of the fragility induced by nearly homogenized highly optimized critical agents non-linearly interacting in an ever-evolving environment. Under extreme crisis, individual reallocation due to shifts in risk aversion or perceived future reactions of other agents, induce extreme fluctuations and clustering which non-linearly feedback to cause computational complexity to feed on itself at an increasing rate.
axe863 2 months ago
@axe863
Can you give me the links to the supposed debunking of an RBE? I tried googling the said names and topic but couldn't come up with anything. As for your analogy on RBE's infeasibility, I don't really agree with that as being a good comparison. Whereas the economy is constantly with terribly unpredictable trends it would be relatively much easier to monitor say global resource consumption, the aim being to distribute it as sustainably as possible.
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
In my opinion that's not something as increasingly complex as our current economic system, the only aspect of a resource management system that would need increasing complexity is its autonomous capabilities; and that would be work in progress, we wouldn't have it perfect right from the start, it would be continuously refined until say it can refine itself you know. A predecessor to this sort of system thats available today would be WATSON (IBM's analysis programme)
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
You keep treating this resource monitoring system like a machine that has all the answers lol, it would base its suggestions on statistics and it would still be left up to humans to make the final decisions; but there would be no hierarchy like there is today and no people who have keeping themselves in power as their main interest. I can see you're a guy that likes facts and that you refuse to support something that doesn't provide those in full detail. however unless you can provide
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
provide me with undeniable reasons as to why this proposal just would not work, I will not change my stance on asking you to at the very least acknowledge the plausibility of RBE's. The reliance upon computing seems to be your main concern but I say to a certain extent the decisions made by governments today are so heavily reliant on information gathered by computers that they would cease to exist without them; its just of course money and power play a role in those decisions too.
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
I stress again, these computers make suggestions not influenced by money, greed or a need to stay in power. But merely resources, if there's not enough oil it will tell you that, if one countries using too much rubber it will flag that up and suggest alternatives based upon its database, the list goes on but my point is this is all stuff based upon commonly used algorithms and not some unsolvable decision..Care to give me an example decision foreseeable in a RBE a computer cannot solve?
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
There's a saying I always refer to whenever someone introduces me to a new theory or topic and that is if you can't prove it disprove it, otherwise hold your peace and accept it as a possibility. So that is what I'm asking of you,and another thing is do you think the current system we have now is as good as its gonna get for humanity? And if not can you suggest a better alternative to our current system that aims to globalize a modern standard of living?
donkisiko 2 months ago
@donkisiko the axe863 guy is nuts...you cant argue with him...he makes misrepresentations or just irrational claims...he will not respond when you refute some of his talk he just starts another idiotic issue...and acts like his argument was never refuted etc...he self has no proof in his video only his own opionins...the guy is really funny how he is not logical at all :D but claims to be :D...i have some videos about him too showing how nuts he is
thelion2430 2 weeks ago
@thelion2430
Lol I know but sometimes in order to fish out the real arguments and the real ideas you've just gotta try and take everything everyone says seriously; although their argument may be fundamentally flawed it might bring about some interesting questions I guess :P I don't know I just try not to disregard what people say haha.
donkisiko 2 weeks ago
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@donkisiko Two questions: Are you a computer scientist? If can actually understand the arguments, would it cause you to lose faith in TVP? Given your prior comments, you are not a computer scientist because you have no idea what self referential means in the context of global optimization and you have no idea what intractability means. ...so what is the point of wasting my time with you if a) you don't understand it b). it wouldn't change your "opinion"
axe863 3 months ago
@axe863
Again no I'm not but I can comprehend the implications of self referential computing and truly competent global opimization (if you're referring to the system responsible for the distribution of resources and labour power); and the fact you're aware I'm not and still use terminology that can at best only gain a partial understanding of your argument is quite amusing. It's within your interest I believe to get your message across as completely as possible.
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
I don't think I've wasted my time debating with you, on the contrary I've learnt a lot and you have provided some very valid arguments. But I feel where we differ is I've given TVP a chance by supporting what it stands for due to it's partially technical nature, while you've decided until it's actually made there's no hope for it and it should be just put in the trashcan. I'm not saying your way of thinking is wrong, I have no right to; what I am saying is that although your
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
Points (or some of them) are to as far as I've read valid. You seem to push TVP to perfection and if it isn't perfect it isn't worth trying. I disagree with that.
The monetary system we have now is going to collapse, sooner or later more and more currency's are going to collapse and we'll be in a turbulent situation where an alternative will need to be found. The problem with this is that nobody cares, economists only care about the system because thats what theyre paid to do.
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
And when the time for an alternative does come about, if we repeat the same mistake and make another monetary system, regardless of how long it will take that system is bound to collapse. So far TVP is the only RBE I've heard of that proposes a sustainable system and though I admit it's incomplete and partially based upon mere predictions. A system akin to it is plausible in my opinion and self referential computing isn't a requirement for it. So until you give me an argument
donkisiko 2 months ago
@axe863
that completely or majorly proves the incompetence of this proposal I will continue to support it. I feel fresco hasn't given the answer, he's given us the "notes"; and it's up to us as human beings how we go about using those notes. I know my arguements aren't to your liking due to a lack of "technicality", but computer science is not the be all and end all of TVP there is a lot more substance to the proposal than that. But no seriously I appreciate and value your arguments!
donkisiko 2 months ago
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@donkisiko Your view on moderation is nonsensical. Saying I agree with you axe, we cant build a machine that's 725% efficient, it can only be 109% efficient doesn't make your position anymore plausible. Unlike TVP, Economists actually build fully specified models that make testable predictions. I can thoroughly dissect and alter the models to ensure higher statistical validity, while a RBE's relative superiority and feasibility is purely speculative.
axe863 3 months ago
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@axe863
"What does this have to do with what I said? " - > in reply to that, you implied you wanted an opportuniy for Fresco's proposal to be assessed by the scientific community. My argument was that the majority of technology he mentions in his proposal is just current technology applied in a more sustainable/environmental manner.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@axe863
Pick holes in The Venus Project, don't invent them.
donkisiko 3 months ago
@Juefawn Venus project is about a new civilization and a new structure engineering,a new space age society, a cult is 1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. Venus project is not about 1)devotion to a certain person 2) it is not about being sinister,it is about creating something bigger than a nation.Hope this helps.
elainepul 5 months ago
@elainepul Yes, the idea that it is for a particular cult figure makes sense.
Juefawn 5 months ago
@elainepul Thanks.
Juefawn 5 months ago
@Juefawn ; a cult is and idea or notion placed forward by a person based on feelings and emotion based dictions. TVP is based on a scientific understanding of the natural world and the willingness to apply modern methods to social problems without the stumbling blocks of profit and human emotion that lead to things like racism, classism, war, starvation and other atrocities created by emotion driven dictions and the current money system.
iRapidoXS 5 months ago
i bet people who hate him just want this planet destroyed dont they? i am all for creating a high sustainable eco friendly city
20PINKluvr 5 months ago
Bullshit from a faceless ignorant piece of shit. Jacque Fresco does not hide his face. I guess that proves everything.
abseil76 5 months ago
Can we use this video as one of our comedy episodes?
WOcoFunnies 6 months ago 2
This is absolutely naive nonsence and produces no constructive aspects! The day you spend your energies not trying to discredit others but by taking a positive direction towards the greater good of tis World, then it would be worth your communicating! Time is precious, so stop wasting yours and others and put it to good use, thank you.
smotsart2009 6 months ago
@smotsart2009
It's "Jacque Fresco Exposed" Debunked
not "Jacque Fresco Exposed and Debunked"
SlipAllCityToy 6 months ago
they call religion "bullshit" but are eager to support this man made shit? oh the humanity..
DarelothJenkins 6 months ago