simple fact is we were going to have an aircraft which nobody would buy. We would have to float the program for ??? years and the Soviets weren't really worried about us...
So in reality if UK or USA didnt want it. Then we would spend the money and prove the weapon platform. Then they might buy it.... or more likely steal the concept and make their own.
What happened was a shame, but it ended the only way it could.
Another beautiful aircraft, and a country's cpability sacrificed due to greed and corruption!
And this is comming from an American!
It was because of the machinations started by Lockheed Corp. giving monies to a British MP named: Duncan Sandys who killed off the Rotodyne,and started the process to kill off the TSR 2, and a whole bunch of other planes and missiles, who then handed a White Paper to Canadian Diffenbacher to kill off the CF-105 Avro Arrow!
It was an incredible airplane, and if you believe it was cancelled because of lack of money you're a bit misinformed. The reason it was cancelled was because the plant was crawling with Soviet spies relaying every detail back to mother Russia. A few years later came the Foxbat, with several striking similarities, mainly the titanium alloy usage near leading-edge surfaces that had a tendency to heat up the higher speeds. It's a horrible end to such an aerodynamic piece of beautiful machinery.
@littleneddygoestowar: Unlike the MiG 25, the CF-105 did NOT use titanium in any of the leading edge surfaces. Small amounts of titanium were used in the engine bay areas, as well as for minor fixtures and fittings. It's fuselage was almost entirely made of aluminum alloy. The Iroquois engines did use extensive amounts of titanium, but never powered a flyable Arrow.
The worst part of this is we spent ten times what we spent on the arrow paying for the american f18. Had we kept the arrow, other countries would have been PAYING us to build it. There were offers on the table to buy engines and complete aircraft. Think jobs. But it was capable of shooting down US spy planes and the cunt americans didnt want the industrial competition. The aircraft was built. Over 30 were ready or almost ready. Well to the United States, FUCK YOU!!!! F18 still cant compete.
@ryanvms: If you factor in inflation, we paid about $10M less per airframe for the CF-18, and received a far more advanced, much more versatile aircraft. The CF-18 is a true multi-role combat aircraft. The Arrow was a single-purpose interceptor that didn’t even mount a gun. No contest. A CF-18 would make swiss cheese out of an Arrow in very short order.
@ryanvms: (cont'd)You also suggest that a CF-105 would be able to shoot down US spyplanes. Aside from that being a non-issue in the first place, unless Canada planned on selling Arrows to Russia (a sworn cold war enemy), Avro Canada dropped the ASTRA/Sparrow program in favor of less complex Falcon/Genie weaponry to equip potential aircraft, limiting shoot-downs to short/medium range attacks on lumbering bombers, not high-altitude recon aircraft.
@ryanvms: (cont'd) Lockheed’s A-12 (precursor to the SR-71) flew in 1962 and was capable of mach 3 flight at 85,000’, well beyond the reach of any Arrow, as the Falcon missile and Genie rocket had a maximum range of only six miles and top speeds of mach 3. They would only match the speed of an A-12/SR-71, and run out of fuel long before reaching their target.
@ryanvms: (cont'd): The only interested party in purchasing the CF-105 was Great Britain, and the cancelled all involvement/interest in the program in January, 1959, (a month prior to black Friday) without placing an order. France expressed brief interest in acquiring roughly 200 PS.13 Iroquois engines for use in their Mirage aircraft, but never considered buying complete CF-105 airframes.
@ryanvms: (cont'd) On a final note, there were five flyable Arrows at cancellation, with the Iroquois-powered #206 98% complete, numbers 207, 208, 209, and 210 at 85%, 80%, 57%, and 46% complete, respectively. Only various components and sub-components existed for another eleven aircraft, no semi-complete airframes. Ten aircraft in various stages of completion at cancellation, not thirty, as you claim.
It is great how many of these engineers went on to other projects. The Arrow's designer went on to nasa and designed the lunar lander. 3 engineers went on to Douglas aircraft and were directly responcable for the f-4 phantom and later the f-15 eagle. 1 went to Northrop and was involved with the f/a-18 design and numerous missle projects. Another went to Liton industries and was involved with the cruise missle development. Many were hired by General Dynamics in Texas and worked on the f-111.
@2ndRCHAret: The F-4 Phantom was designed by McDonnell Aircraft Corporation during the same period as the CF-105 Arrow, and first flew in May of 1958 (only three months after the CF-105's maiden flight), a full nine months prior to termination of the Arrow project. American engineers led by American-born Dave Lewis were responsible for the F-4, not ex-Avro engineers as your post suggests. As a sidenote, McDonnell didn't merge with Douglas until 1967.
diefenbaker is a fucking idiot, destroying the worlds best aircraft and know the only way to get to space now is the russians ww2 shuttle cuz america is too poor to send out any. damn this world is dumb
My great uncle was a mechanic on these planes and I wish I knew that before he died... His brother told me it exceeded mach 3 and how he saw it fly at 90 degree climb right from take off till he couldn't see it.
@NeeShallPass: Nonsense. The highest speed attained was 1.98mach, on November 11, 1958, and it never exceeded 50,000' during the flight test programme. Instead of buying into outlandish Arrow mythology, read a factual study on the aircraft.
@raynus1 Hi raynus. I see your still at it trying to lead our countrymen to the truth about the Arrow. Good luck my friend you have a huge task ahead of you. I saw the Peter Mansbridge interview with Malcolm Gladwell. Peter called him a great thinker but I'm sure the purpose was for Mansbridge to finally host an interview with someone who had worse hair. I'm not sure what irked me more. The bullshit I heard or, the fact that the clown (Gladwell) got airtime with our tax dollars.
My Grandfather, who died in 1997, swore that if this had been put into production, even by 1997 standards, it would have still been a viable jet aircraft. And he wasn't one to mince on words - being a jet engineer for the latter part of his life.
That means that this aircraft would have been a completely usable design for 30+ years, and would have no doubt been very well refined by the end of that term, and inexpensive to manufacture. How sad to see its life cut short from the very start.
@spencerhopkins91 My Father worked at Avro in the design team of the Arrow during the 50's.The Arrow was never capable of anything over Mach 2.0 with the Pratt & Whitney J75 P3 engines. The Arrow never flew with their much more powerful Orenda Iroquois engines. Mach 2.5 and 3.0 were only drawing board plans not yet acted upon. Too bad Diefenbacher was such a spineless, egotistical man,who is responsible for losing it , it's technology and the brilliant minds that created it. Sad indeed!
@spencerhopkins91 - Yes, maybe theoretically on paper it could have been capable of Mach 3.0, but the air frame certain was not capable, without major modification and experimentation. Just ask anyone at Lockheed how hard it is to build an air frame and engine capable of Mach3.0 +, for example the A12 Oxcart or SR-71.
and to everyone saying that it was too expensive to build and continue to develop, i have one question: how much do you think it cost apple to design, engineer and manufacture the first Mac, iPhone or iPod? TONS of money and guess what-they stuck with it, and now look at them! I work at a Nuke power plant and guess what- it was ground breaking technology when it was designed and built more than 40 years ago and IT'S STILL RUNNING! The point is YOU CAN'T PUT A PRICE ON R&D OF SOMETHING NEW!
Just so everyone knows. It was the CONSERVATIVES that canceled the program when they came to power in '57and ordered it to not fly the same day (Feb 18/1959) it was to test the Iroquois engines (26000 lb thrust with AB x 2!) and DESTROY every jet record in the books to date. All due to AMERICAN POLITICS and pressure from them to buy their planes, and to invest in NORAD, also-the RCMP had suspicion that the KGB had a mole in the program and was the reason for scrapping it.
If this had been built, it wouldn't have stopped at Mark II either. By 2011 in a (better) alternate universe, the CF-105 Arrow goes Mach 4.2 at 97,000ft, or something close to that.
@GangsterHutterite: That's just silly. Mach 3 flight is so 1960's, as is the interceptor. If it had continued, it likely would've evolved into a multi-role combat aircraft, similar to the F-15SE.
"This clip brings tears to my eyes. What a great country this is."
how ironic you think canada is a great country -- for what? buidling and then cancelling his plane way back in the 50's and shifting so much engineering expertise to the americans. now we are buying the americans behind schedule overrpriced underperforming f-35. that is a real great country. almost as great as how we gave away our natural resources to american companies to profit from.
Every dead Canadian Soldier that's driven by my town, from Trenton to Toronto, is a direct result of Mr. Harper and his Conservatives. However, no widow or fatherless child can hold him accountable. Prior to the Harperites, we were a peacekeeping nation, with a balanced budget. Enjoy the next four years (plus I don't care what province you're from - Ontario is the heart and soul of Canada.)
Free from what you idiot, the Taliban?? The reason the Taliban exists is because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Free from weapons of mass destruction, they didn't exist! Free from the North Korean? The U.S. created that problem in the 50's. Free from Iranian invasion? Won't happen. Again another problem started by U.S. foreign policy when they eliminated a newly elected government in Iran, and brought in the Shah. We have freedom because of victories in WW1 & WW!.
@Kraandshdavus The dead soldiers coming down the Highway of Heroes is a sign Canada still fights for what's right. And there's no reason to call someone an idiot because they're respecting their country's dead soldiers.
We now have one of the most recognized flags in the world, as opposed to an old Colonial Flag, and a national anthem to go with it, thanks to the Liberals.
Granted, the arrow was an interceptor; but its abandonment was a product of that same missile-fever which lead the U.S.A.F., over a particularly costly period, to abandon training pilots in basic dogfighting skills (resulting in many of its pilots entering the theater of Vietnam in expensive F-4 without knowing what the aircraft was truly capable of in a turning-fight; much less how superior the MiG was in that arena).
As an American, I take no shame in admitting that Canada produced the most beautiful single-seat flying machine, ever, in the form of the Avro CF-105 Arrow. Its continuation would have been of benefit to both countries... sadly, both of whom's higher commands were terribly short-sighted in placing unwarranted faith on missiles (which would take many decades to prove reliable - in that span of time, causing U.S. kill-ratios to plummet versus the more agile MiG-17, 19, & 21 over Vietnam).
@MidnightRambler73 Diefenbaker Was Responsible For The Flag Change, The Avro Cancellation & Canada Not Being Able To Build Any Military Aircraft For Our Armed Forces. We Are Only Aloud to Buy Military Aircraft From The US. Good Footage By The Way.
@LeopoldPlumtree Your Right, It Was Pearson, I Just Keep Remembering The Old Video Of When Pearson Was Booo-ed While Trying To Explain It To A Group Of Legion & Armed Forces Members, & Remembered Diefenbaker For Some Resign.
@MapleBalls ", I Just Keep Remembering The Old Video Of When Pearson Was Booo-ed While Trying To Explain It To A Group Of Legion & Armed Forces Members"
I'm sure the old guard were plenty offended at the thought of changing. Your previous flag had a certain charm, but the one you have now is the best national flag in the world, in my view.
Plain and simple, the Arrow was a beautiful plane and is historically one of the best Canadian achievements. Imagine what this country would be like if Dief hadn't been a butt head and killed it. If only the Orenda engine had of been built from the beginning instead of using the Pratts, it would have taken the records for sure. Good business point tho, why give the Pratt the credit when it would make the Orenda famous. It was just was ahead of its time. Remarkable none the less.
xXwirelessXx says: "Born and raised in Western Canada eh? Well you sound more like a stuck up American that thinks he knows all. Sorry for tweaking, but you piss people off when you " present facts and figures to articulate a position"
xXwirelessXx says: "STFU buddy you think your the shit? your probably some stuck up prick of an American, i was just making a comment on my views of the Avreo Aero, u probably read Wikipedia and have been plagiarizing and have no right to chirp me for my views. BTW your not cool for having arguments on you tube so get a life you good for nothing loser"
Attention on deck: xXwirelessXx, after sending me a very rude personal message, has now demanded that I stop messaging him. So, as a rebuttal, I'll make this reply public to respect his wishes. xXwirelessXx, spineless jellyfish that he is, states that he prefers to stick with his 'beliefs' pertaining to the 'Avreo Aero' (to paraphrase), rather than documented historical fact. He's likely a Liberal; Probably from Central Canada. Liberals don't deal well with reality. That is all. Carry on.
@raynus1 Perhaps we should continue to refer to this mythologic aircraft as the "Aero" (or "Errow") to properly distinguish it from the historic Arrow.
@LeopoldPlumtree It is interesting, though you are saying it in a very funny way. But we don't really have a fully comprehensive view of the real plane. largly because it never got the oportunity to prove itself, leaving things open to rumor inuendo falacy fantasy mixed with fiction speculation and truth. It would be nice to just no it all. be if we did just think of all this fun we'd be missing out on.
I cant believe they scraped the Avro, it was the best interceptor of the time and the gay U.S. presidud (lol) bullied our PM into scraping it, all because it was better than anything the US could ever dream of making at that time
@JohnQRandom Typical Canadian propaganda? No, compared to the US canada is never heard of in any history txt book except our own. and eisenhower was a genius, but the theory is that he bullied diefenbaker into scraping iit, and i believe that, because the US thinks there the shit, and the're not. And im not 12
My boy, you are talking to people on this thread far older, more experienced, and smarter than you are. The promo that was made about this aircraft was a far cry from reality, and was made with the intent to make Canadians feel that it was the Americans who forced your government to scrap it. Raynus, whose comments can be read below, also posts his comments on numrous other Avro threads. Have a word with him, as of right now I don't have time.
I don't doubt that one bit. As if we would pass a chance to stay ahead of the Soviets in favor of a pissing contest with Canada. Where the hell is the logic there??
@xXwirelessXx : It was your 'boogeyman' Eisenhower who warned about the looming 'Military Industrial Complex' that lefties love to quote & predicate endless conspiracy theories on. It was the Eisenhower administration that axed the very advanced XF-108 program, an American interceptor design that exceeded the Arrow's capabilities in almost every conceivable way. And Eisenhower most certainly didn't bully anyone into dropping the CF-105 program...especially a prairie hard-ass like Diefenbaker.
The canceling had to do with only one reason: NORAD
The government had to choose between the aircraft OR the radar system in the north to track the soviets but couldn't afford both. History tells us that the soviet menace never manifested, thus all these radar ended up being useless in the end. If only we didn't get into NORAD...we would've had this awesome plane, and Avro would still make fighters, which would solve our little F-35 problem.
NORAD is only an outdated cold war monument, anyway.
@anarchyXI>> "History tells us that the soviet menace never manifested, thus all these radar ended up being useless in the end."
Um, the Arrow was being designed solely to defend against that very same menace. The radar network would have been necessary either way (or Soviet bombers would have been able to fly over parked Arrows ;)...
That is interesting! I was 16 when I managed a trip from Scarborough (when the Golden Mile was on the edge of the city) to Malton with a friend. We climbed the fence to get a good look at 201. We were awestruck I had already made up my mind I was going to fly that airplane. It didn't work out that way. Instead I flew the CF-104 in the nuclear strike role in Germany. That's life. I thoroughly enjoyed my stint in the RCAF. The Arrow is a beautiful design.
@notnick99 you are a very lucky man!!!! I juined the RCAF in 67 and I was 17 years old, I remember we still had the Chipmunk around but I neveer got the chance to try one did you? It make me mad to think about that lost opportunity that was the Avro Arrow. We could have gone soo far in that line.....
According to "Kennedy and Diefenbaker" by Knowlton Nash, the St. Laurent gov't before Diefenbaker had intended to scrap the Arrow because it was way over budget. They didn't do it because they lost the election. There were KGB moles at Avro, that's one reason they cut the planes up. According to "Learning to Love the Bomb" by Sean Maloney, the planes were cut up and all blueprints retrieved because some plans were for how to install the nuclear air-to-air MB-1 "Genie" rocket.
@synthfreakify: Wouldn't surprise me a bit. C.D. Howe, Laurent's 'Minister of Everything' conceded that the Arrow needed to be cancelled..after the Conservatives took power. Yes, the Genie and Falcon were to be the Arrow's armament after the Sparrow II/ASTRA system was dropped. Makes sense that any reference to them would be destroyed..especially if Soviet moles had infiltrated Avro.
Both Raynus1, and LeopoldPlumtree, surely you can concede that it was beautifully played by Canada, and that the Interceptor was designed to perform exactly as planned. I am still pissed at the world that 301 is not still out there.
@nsla The Arrow was impressive and exceptionally beautiful. I'd never say otherwise. Of course, looks weren't vital to filling the Arrow's intended role, but even though it was never fully proven, I don't doubt it would have been a plenty capable aircraft had development continued.
@LeopoldPlumtree Point taken. Beautiful, but never proven. :) Still, to dream a dream, eh? Kinda like what James Dean, Jimi Hendrix, Marilyn Monroe, or JFK may have been. Always leave the audience wanting more. :)
The Arrow was capable of Mach 2 even without the Iroquois engine installed. Imagine what it could have done with the Iroquois. My guess would be Mach 2.5, which would put it right up there with most of today's state-of-the-art aircraft. Not bad for a plane designed more than half a century ago. No wonder the Americans wanted it. When Avro ceased operations, our loss became NASA's and Great Britain's gain. Oh, well!
I am dumbfounded that among the Arrow, the Iroqouis and the Jetliner---none survived. All were outstanding products and did not deserve to be cut up to scrap.
@buckbuckaroo1 I've been having a little fun digging around about it, and from what I know, it was misinformation, rising costs, and poor advice. This could be wrong, for all I know, but it's what I've got.
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Prime minister Definbaker of the conservitive party shut the program down. Canada`s Nasa equivilent shut down in a day. black friday. Vote Liberal, Ndp, hell Green party. anyone but those small minded torries.
@Kmacster: If the Liberals, NDP, and BQ had their way, Canada wouldn't even have an effective air force. Guess you haven't been following the whole F-35 thing, have you?
Comparing Avro Canada to NASA is like comparing RollerBlade to BMW.
@raynus1 the arrow was a liberal program canceled by the concervitive party lead by john definbaker, Avro was well on its way to being comparable to Nasa and at the time built a plane that others said was impossible. Your a know nothing simpleton get your facts stright and hey heres an idea.. watch the feature film `the arrow` might give you some insight into the topic. oh and we dont have an effective air force. or amry, or navy.
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Greatest ever, the Americans would have been in shell shock. Every modern aircraft owes there modern look, and flight dynamics to this. With out this, Concorde, and most of the Mercury Space program wouldn't have flown. Thanks a lot Diefenbaker
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Leopold the closest that the U.S. came to the Arrow wasn't until 1962 for the SR71 Blackbird which was NOT a fighter jet with a speed of Mach 1.6, the Arrow was made in 1953 and the models alone were flown at Mach 1.7+ before being intentionally crashed into Lake Ontario in which they were finally recovered off the coast of Kingston in 1997. My point which you obviously missed to Projekkt was that it wasn't just an internal strife for Canadians that caused the cancellation of the Arrow.
@PhrostBack The US already had the F-106 which was capable of mach 2+. The SR-71 had two early-60s predecessors in the A-12 and YF-12 (also intended to be an interceptor like the Arrow). These were all mach 3+ aircraft. Flight testing for the Arrow started in 1958 (it wasn't made in 1953; the project was only beginning), which was limited to mach 1.98, though could conceivably have been better than mach 2. Your claim that the cancellation was more than internal has no real support I've seen.
I can totally see what you're talking about with the 106. Had never actually heard of it before. Creepy similarities, though, especially in the cockpit layout! I think one hand was talking to the other!! Thanks for the info! Which of course begs the question...... what else was being shared? Did canada really have the upper hand on a Mach 2+ interceptor in the 50's? WTF??
I can totally see what you're talking about with the 106. Had never actually heard of it before. Creepy similarities, though, especially in the cockpit layout! I think one hand was talking to the other!! Thanks for the info! Which of course begs the question...... what else was being shared? Did canada really have the upper hand on a Mach 2+ interceptor in the 50's? WTF??
Also I have watched the movie, and I watched it for what it was, A MOVIE. Projekt you probably also believe mummy and daddy didn't tuck you in enough at night too. You're a sad sad little man with penis envy that the U.S. didn't come up with the arrow first.
@PhrostBack That's not a very substantial rebuttal. Unless you're just trolling, would you care to provide more than sophomoric insults? The US did come up with an aircraft of the Arrow's class before the Arrow in the F-106. TheProjektcc wasn't slamming the Arrow. There have been many outlandish, unsupportable claims made about the CF-105. Pointing out that there have been other machines just as amazing isn't an insult to Arrow.
@TheProjektcc I believe you need to keep your mouth shut when it comes to things you don't know what you're talking about. You're the type of person that makes the world hate America, talking shit you know nothing about. IDIOT! =)
America had very little to do with the cancellation of this plane. Look it up. It was all internal strife amongst the Canadians and only the Canadians.
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Eisenhower didn't want an interceptor like the Arrow guarding the U.S. He didn't want to look inferior to the world, he pressured Dief into scrapping it through the potential of several boycotts. I agree with your point that it makes no sense but it is true, and there are records if you dig deep enough. I also agree with that It would have been extremely beneficial for the U.S. and Canada even up and into the late 70's and early 80's.
@PhrostBack It all sounds very anecdotal. Where does one have to "dig" for these records? What are the sources backing up the claim the US was behind the Arrow's cancellation? Why did the US aid in the Arrow's development if they were looking to kill the program?
You're an idiot who beleives foolish myths. Canadians have all the right to be proud of their invention but not to the point where they make ridiculous claims. The threat of ballistic missiles and the decline of straight forward interceptors world wide, combined with the cost of development and production, and internal Canadian disagreements ended this plane.
Go watch the film "there never was an arrow" trust me the last thing the US would do is cancel it.
I'm not going to invest the time to track down articles relating to Diefenbaker but it is a well know fact that at that time the U.S. was still pretty immature in it's relationship with Canada, it was a pissing contest they couldn't win and knew it so they threatened to boycott Canadian exports, Dief caved and scrapped the arrow. I had first hand accounts from great aunts and uncles who were privy to information at the time as well so I'll take their words. I agree with your point about benefit.
@PhrostBack There was no "pissing contest" between Canada and the US. The Arrow was just one program and was of no threat to the US aerospace industry. Plenty of US aerospace projects have been cancelled just as the Arrow was, but without the fanciful claims of conspiracy. The Arrow was just another mach 2 aircraft developed at a time when there were a number of other mach 2 aircraft in service or under development in the UK, France and the US.
so true the canadians have a right to be proud of their creation but it was one of many exotic mach 2 designs of the era to be scrapped and the Idea of america silencing it is ridiculous.
There are plenty of occasions of the US purchasing foreign weapons systems. Ex( harrier jump jet) if this plane was as good as the hopeful Canadians had dreamed it would be, the last thing the US would try to do would be to end the program especially during the cold war.
@PhrostBack There's no reason to believe Diefenbaker was bullied by the US into chopping the Arrow. There's no record of such a thing ever happening. The entire premise makes no sense; having another interceptor like the Arrow guarding the north pole would've benefited the US just as much as Canada.
@PhrostBack: Ridiculous Canadian Myth. Diefenbaker was anything but a pushover, and, save a warm relationship with Dwight Eisenhower, typically didn't care much for Americans. During the that era, it was the Liberals who tended to cozy up to US industry, not the Conservatives...that was long before the LPC turned into the rabid anti-american loonies they are today. Cost killed the CF-105 program. Cost and a misguided, worldwide, belief that the manned interceptor was obsolete.
@EngineerAeronautical ... RL203 maintained Mach 1.9 ! Mach 2+ would have come in RL206 with the Iroquois Engines, which never had a chance to fly before the program was cancelled.
America knew it was stronger then any of there aircrafts so they asked Canada to disassemble it because it was to good for them, we were in the future, they were in the past. If it was that good LEAVE IT BE, but no! It's all america's fault! I say lets find the old blueprints and rebuild it!
The whole thing was just a "proof-of-concept" for developing the American "Valkyrie", which was lift-plane for a CIA SCRAM-jet spyplane. The imagined "hop & pop" scenario of intercepting Soviet Mach 3 bombers at 70,000 was never going to happen because of the short range of supersonic aircraft. The "Arrow" program was to be cancelled before the first flight which is why the flight-simulator was rigged to portray an un-flyable aircraft. The Liberals squandered(in today's money $10B) for the US
lol is that what they taught u in school?.... is to be cancelled?? i think what you meant to say was, 'americans are way too greedy and cant stand to see a country with something better than them'... im sorry to offend you if ur american, but that's what happened
MFU. The Liberals from St Laurent on have been giving away Canada for their own personal profit. Why do you think Canadians pay $100 billion a year in interest payments to American banks? Trudeau got a kick back from every billion paid out, the way Martin didn't pay taxes on his shipping company. Also, the 104 Starfighter could fly Mach 2.2, climb faster and fly further when the "Arrow" was on the drawing board. Your "Superplane" was no more advanced than the one the Argentines were working on.
@NormN354 If it was a "proof-of-concept" program, then why did the USAF offer to buy the planes off the production line and give them to the RCAF? Top officials in the USAF and Avro were on record as saying the offer was made. They wanted to keep the production line open. Between Avro and Canadair, some of the best work in advanced interceptors was being done north of the border.
@40thCapeRifles I've read a lot of "ArrowHead" propaganda and never found this claim. Get the "First Person Singular" progrram from the CBC. Lester Pearson says of the Arrow cancellation "At least it saved us(the Liberals) from having to do it,. It was too expensive". Any offer would have jumped on. The Canberra bomber and the Harrier fighter-bomber are the only planes the Americans ever bought from outsiders and then only out of immediate necessity.
@NormN354: Although not as spectacular in their design, large numbers of Canadian-built Noorduyn Norsemen, deHavilland DHC-2 Beavers, DHC-3 Otter, and DH-4 Caribou aircraft were also purchased by the US military, from WWII through the 1960's.
Spud McCocky definitely provided a fake name for this report lmao
Borasalming 5 hours ago
simple fact is we were going to have an aircraft which nobody would buy. We would have to float the program for ??? years and the Soviets weren't really worried about us...
So in reality if UK or USA didnt want it. Then we would spend the money and prove the weapon platform. Then they might buy it.... or more likely steal the concept and make their own.
What happened was a shame, but it ended the only way it could.
00Billy 2 weeks ago
Another beautiful aircraft, and a country's cpability sacrificed due to greed and corruption!
And this is comming from an American!
It was because of the machinations started by Lockheed Corp. giving monies to a British MP named: Duncan Sandys who killed off the Rotodyne,and started the process to kill off the TSR 2, and a whole bunch of other planes and missiles, who then handed a White Paper to Canadian Diffenbacher to kill off the CF-105 Avro Arrow!
CF-105, TSR-2, Rotodyne, BlueStreak: R.I.P.
Dreaded88 2 weeks ago
My grandfather also worked at av roe, when the plane was cancelled, he passed away shortly after that.
cdw100 2 weeks ago
It reminds me of the NASA space shuttle for some reason, and it definitely looks modern for a 50's jet. Beautiful.
777Sarahbelle 3 weeks ago
my grandfather designed the cockpit on this juss saying :o
BKproductions11 4 weeks ago
It was an incredible airplane, and if you believe it was cancelled because of lack of money you're a bit misinformed. The reason it was cancelled was because the plant was crawling with Soviet spies relaying every detail back to mother Russia. A few years later came the Foxbat, with several striking similarities, mainly the titanium alloy usage near leading-edge surfaces that had a tendency to heat up the higher speeds. It's a horrible end to such an aerodynamic piece of beautiful machinery.
littleneddygoestowar 1 month ago
@littleneddygoestowar: Unlike the MiG 25, the CF-105 did NOT use titanium in any of the leading edge surfaces. Small amounts of titanium were used in the engine bay areas, as well as for minor fixtures and fittings. It's fuselage was almost entirely made of aluminum alloy. The Iroquois engines did use extensive amounts of titanium, but never powered a flyable Arrow.
raynus1 1 month ago
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littleneddygoestowar 1 month ago
Spud Patocky lol
happyoldMEN 1 month ago
The price of collaborating with Americans.
hcanuck7 1 month ago
fuck traitors the conservative party
canadamonster 1 month ago
never trust a conservative
canadamonster 1 month ago
raynus1
Go suck a dick and fuck off asshole!
Arrow or (future planned variants) never got the chance to fully prove itself.
comx427 1 month ago 13
@comx427: I think someone needs a hug....and their mouth washed out with a pail of diesel.
raynus1 1 month ago
@comx427 FUCK YOU.
BKproductions11 4 weeks ago
@BKproductions11 FUCK YOU TOO ASSHOLE.
lol
comx427 4 weeks ago
ryanvms needs an enema
crotchboots 2 months ago
The worst part of this is we spent ten times what we spent on the arrow paying for the american f18. Had we kept the arrow, other countries would have been PAYING us to build it. There were offers on the table to buy engines and complete aircraft. Think jobs. But it was capable of shooting down US spy planes and the cunt americans didnt want the industrial competition. The aircraft was built. Over 30 were ready or almost ready. Well to the United States, FUCK YOU!!!! F18 still cant compete.
ryanvms 2 months ago
@ryanvms: If you factor in inflation, we paid about $10M less per airframe for the CF-18, and received a far more advanced, much more versatile aircraft. The CF-18 is a true multi-role combat aircraft. The Arrow was a single-purpose interceptor that didn’t even mount a gun. No contest. A CF-18 would make swiss cheese out of an Arrow in very short order.
raynus1 1 month ago 2
@ryanvms: (cont'd)You also suggest that a CF-105 would be able to shoot down US spyplanes. Aside from that being a non-issue in the first place, unless Canada planned on selling Arrows to Russia (a sworn cold war enemy), Avro Canada dropped the ASTRA/Sparrow program in favor of less complex Falcon/Genie weaponry to equip potential aircraft, limiting shoot-downs to short/medium range attacks on lumbering bombers, not high-altitude recon aircraft.
raynus1 1 month ago 2
@ryanvms: (cont'd) Lockheed’s A-12 (precursor to the SR-71) flew in 1962 and was capable of mach 3 flight at 85,000’, well beyond the reach of any Arrow, as the Falcon missile and Genie rocket had a maximum range of only six miles and top speeds of mach 3. They would only match the speed of an A-12/SR-71, and run out of fuel long before reaching their target.
raynus1 1 month ago 2
@ryanvms: (cont'd): The only interested party in purchasing the CF-105 was Great Britain, and the cancelled all involvement/interest in the program in January, 1959, (a month prior to black Friday) without placing an order. France expressed brief interest in acquiring roughly 200 PS.13 Iroquois engines for use in their Mirage aircraft, but never considered buying complete CF-105 airframes.
raynus1 1 month ago 2
@ryanvms: (cont'd) On a final note, there were five flyable Arrows at cancellation, with the Iroquois-powered #206 98% complete, numbers 207, 208, 209, and 210 at 85%, 80%, 57%, and 46% complete, respectively. Only various components and sub-components existed for another eleven aircraft, no semi-complete airframes. Ten aircraft in various stages of completion at cancellation, not thirty, as you claim.
raynus1 1 month ago 2
I love the Avro Arow
leslieruo 2 months ago
It is great how many of these engineers went on to other projects. The Arrow's designer went on to nasa and designed the lunar lander. 3 engineers went on to Douglas aircraft and were directly responcable for the f-4 phantom and later the f-15 eagle. 1 went to Northrop and was involved with the f/a-18 design and numerous missle projects. Another went to Liton industries and was involved with the cruise missle development. Many were hired by General Dynamics in Texas and worked on the f-111.
2ndRCHAret 2 months ago
@2ndRCHAret: The F-4 Phantom was designed by McDonnell Aircraft Corporation during the same period as the CF-105 Arrow, and first flew in May of 1958 (only three months after the CF-105's maiden flight), a full nine months prior to termination of the Arrow project. American engineers led by American-born Dave Lewis were responsible for the F-4, not ex-Avro engineers as your post suggests. As a sidenote, McDonnell didn't merge with Douglas until 1967.
raynus1 1 month ago
diefenbaker is a fucking idiot, destroying the worlds best aircraft and know the only way to get to space now is the russians ww2 shuttle cuz america is too poor to send out any. damn this world is dumb
DKKUBALA 2 months ago
This is the face of Canadian Jingoism.
preciouspaul847 2 months ago 4
canadas broken dream
reptarthegreat666 3 months ago
Man what douche killed this plane. I would have loved to have a career with Avro when i graduate -_-
danasht 3 months ago
A fighter years ahead of its time! What dimwits they were to cancel it. Very similar story to the TSR-2
HelmutVillam 4 months ago
BRING BACK THE ARROW
cdnparatrooper 5 months ago
My great uncle was a mechanic on these planes and I wish I knew that before he died... His brother told me it exceeded mach 3 and how he saw it fly at 90 degree climb right from take off till he couldn't see it.
NeeShallPass 5 months ago
@NeeShallPass: Nonsense. The highest speed attained was 1.98mach, on November 11, 1958, and it never exceeded 50,000' during the flight test programme. Instead of buying into outlandish Arrow mythology, read a factual study on the aircraft.
raynus1 2 months ago 3
@raynus1 Hi raynus. I see your still at it trying to lead our countrymen to the truth about the Arrow. Good luck my friend you have a huge task ahead of you. I saw the Peter Mansbridge interview with Malcolm Gladwell. Peter called him a great thinker but I'm sure the purpose was for Mansbridge to finally host an interview with someone who had worse hair. I'm not sure what irked me more. The bullshit I heard or, the fact that the clown (Gladwell) got airtime with our tax dollars.
banjer4u 1 month ago 2
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Killed by America, just like TSR 2
Mike/Liverpool
Megax1xr 5 months ago
My Grandfather, who died in 1997, swore that if this had been put into production, even by 1997 standards, it would have still been a viable jet aircraft. And he wasn't one to mince on words - being a jet engineer for the latter part of his life.
That means that this aircraft would have been a completely usable design for 30+ years, and would have no doubt been very well refined by the end of that term, and inexpensive to manufacture. How sad to see its life cut short from the very start.
C1TeamMidNight 6 months ago
The frustrations of government. From the get-go avro was being screwed over by government. imagine this plane with today's engines.
searchoverload8 6 months ago
overrated, would not have been as fast as an electric lightning
dmax631 6 months ago
@dmax631 if that was the case then you would of been on the electric lighting video and not the avro arrow
freakyflow 6 months ago
@dmax631 nothing would..... andthe arrow was capable of mach 2.5 and 3.26749 with afterburners but it was said to be unsafe
spencerhopkins91 4 months ago
@spencerhopkins91 My Father worked at Avro in the design team of the Arrow during the 50's.The Arrow was never capable of anything over Mach 2.0 with the Pratt & Whitney J75 P3 engines. The Arrow never flew with their much more powerful Orenda Iroquois engines. Mach 2.5 and 3.0 were only drawing board plans not yet acted upon. Too bad Diefenbacher was such a spineless, egotistical man,who is responsible for losing it , it's technology and the brilliant minds that created it. Sad indeed!
MrMENMEL 3 months ago
@MrMENMEL well the Iroquois engine was capable of mach 3. and yes We would go down in history until our government stopped it
spencerhopkins91 3 months ago
@spencerhopkins91 - Yes, maybe theoretically on paper it could have been capable of Mach 3.0, but the air frame certain was not capable, without major modification and experimentation. Just ask anyone at Lockheed how hard it is to build an air frame and engine capable of Mach3.0 +, for example the A12 Oxcart or SR-71.
MrMENMEL 3 months ago 4
Does any one have 3 view drawings or plans for this. I want to build a scale rc version of this beautiful plane. Please let me know.
mlang1321 6 months ago
and to everyone saying that it was too expensive to build and continue to develop, i have one question: how much do you think it cost apple to design, engineer and manufacture the first Mac, iPhone or iPod? TONS of money and guess what-they stuck with it, and now look at them! I work at a Nuke power plant and guess what- it was ground breaking technology when it was designed and built more than 40 years ago and IT'S STILL RUNNING! The point is YOU CAN'T PUT A PRICE ON R&D OF SOMETHING NEW!
gordonwbell 7 months ago
Just so everyone knows. It was the CONSERVATIVES that canceled the program when they came to power in '57and ordered it to not fly the same day (Feb 18/1959) it was to test the Iroquois engines (26000 lb thrust with AB x 2!) and DESTROY every jet record in the books to date. All due to AMERICAN POLITICS and pressure from them to buy their planes, and to invest in NORAD, also-the RCMP had suspicion that the KGB had a mole in the program and was the reason for scrapping it.
gordonwbell 7 months ago
If this had been built, it wouldn't have stopped at Mark II either. By 2011 in a (better) alternate universe, the CF-105 Arrow goes Mach 4.2 at 97,000ft, or something close to that.
GangsterHutterite 7 months ago
@GangsterHutterite: That's just silly. Mach 3 flight is so 1960's, as is the interceptor. If it had continued, it likely would've evolved into a multi-role combat aircraft, similar to the F-15SE.
raynus1 2 months ago
"This clip brings tears to my eyes. What a great country this is."
how ironic you think canada is a great country -- for what? buidling and then cancelling his plane way back in the 50's and shifting so much engineering expertise to the americans. now we are buying the americans behind schedule overrpriced underperforming f-35. that is a real great country. almost as great as how we gave away our natural resources to american companies to profit from.
rostant999 7 months ago
@MidnightRambler73 you're right; as long as they'd put a Fleur de lysée at the center of it. ;o)
TheTourlous 8 months ago
I love Canada
kahlonjatt09 8 months ago 26
@kahlonjatt09 It's too bad that they canceled this fighter plane.....It's really sad
marty5371 3 days ago
Thanks for nothing Dief.
Hardtofindvideos2 9 months ago 3
Dear Canadians,
please get back soon to kicking ass and let me know if I can help.
Signed,
disgruntled italian
Spiritplumber 9 months ago
@MidnightRambler73
Every dead Canadian Soldier that's driven by my town, from Trenton to Toronto, is a direct result of Mr. Harper and his Conservatives. However, no widow or fatherless child can hold him accountable. Prior to the Harperites, we were a peacekeeping nation, with a balanced budget. Enjoy the next four years (plus I don't care what province you're from - Ontario is the heart and soul of Canada.)
Krashdavus 10 months ago
@Krashdavus every dead soldier coming down to Toronto is a sign we are still free and fight for what supposed to be right against wrong.
To think war is a tea party is most liberal !
frank0067 9 months ago
@frank0067
Free from what you idiot, the Taliban?? The reason the Taliban exists is because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Free from weapons of mass destruction, they didn't exist! Free from the North Korean? The U.S. created that problem in the 50's. Free from Iranian invasion? Won't happen. Again another problem started by U.S. foreign policy when they eliminated a newly elected government in Iran, and brought in the Shah. We have freedom because of victories in WW1 & WW!.
Krashdavus 9 months ago
@Kraandshdavus The dead soldiers coming down the Highway of Heroes is a sign Canada still fights for what's right. And there's no reason to call someone an idiot because they're respecting their country's dead soldiers.
TheLordofError 8 months ago
@MidnightRambler73
We now have one of the most recognized flags in the world, as opposed to an old Colonial Flag, and a national anthem to go with it, thanks to the Liberals.
Krashdavus 10 months ago
I couldnt ever have piloted this plane my legs are too short to get over the canopy to exit LOL
PhilsCinema 10 months ago
@PhilsCinema They could lower you with a rope! LOL
buzzbuerling 10 months ago
CANADA
dYNazTeePS3 10 months ago
Canada proved it could build a great aircraft. To bad it was canceled.
Yor53 10 months ago
Granted, the arrow was an interceptor; but its abandonment was a product of that same missile-fever which lead the U.S.A.F., over a particularly costly period, to abandon training pilots in basic dogfighting skills (resulting in many of its pilots entering the theater of Vietnam in expensive F-4 without knowing what the aircraft was truly capable of in a turning-fight; much less how superior the MiG was in that arena).
l3ullshitter 10 months ago
As an American, I take no shame in admitting that Canada produced the most beautiful single-seat flying machine, ever, in the form of the Avro CF-105 Arrow. Its continuation would have been of benefit to both countries... sadly, both of whom's higher commands were terribly short-sighted in placing unwarranted faith on missiles (which would take many decades to prove reliable - in that span of time, causing U.S. kill-ratios to plummet versus the more agile MiG-17, 19, & 21 over Vietnam).
l3ullshitter 10 months ago
@MidnightRambler73 Yep, Just As I Corrected Myself Just Underneath Your Comment.
MapleBalls 11 months ago
@MidnightRambler73 Diefenbaker Was Responsible For The Flag Change, The Avro Cancellation & Canada Not Being Able To Build Any Military Aircraft For Our Armed Forces. We Are Only Aloud to Buy Military Aircraft From The US. Good Footage By The Way.
MapleBalls 11 months ago
@MapleBalls "Diefenbaker Was Responsible For The Flag Change..."
Diefenbaker vehemently opposed the flag change.
LeopoldPlumtree 11 months ago
@LeopoldPlumtree Your Right, It Was Pearson, I Just Keep Remembering The Old Video Of When Pearson Was Booo-ed While Trying To Explain It To A Group Of Legion & Armed Forces Members, & Remembered Diefenbaker For Some Resign.
MapleBalls 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@MapleBalls ", I Just Keep Remembering The Old Video Of When Pearson Was Booo-ed While Trying To Explain It To A Group Of Legion & Armed Forces Members"
I'm sure the old guard were plenty offended at the thought of changing. Your previous flag had a certain charm, but the one you have now is the best national flag in the world, in my view.
LeopoldPlumtree 11 months ago
@LeopoldPlumtree He opposed the cancellation of the Arrow as well. But he was persuaded by others.
mahoganyrush300 10 months ago
Oh the shame...
janmadytay 11 months ago
*sighes* such a beautiful aircraft made in canada soil toobad we had to scrap the project T_T
demonhorse103 11 months ago
Avro Arrow first flight March 25th, 1958.
superman1749 11 months ago
Man, losing this aircraft hurts worse than losing a crate of beer
segregator236 11 months ago 36
Looks like the Tornado in some ways, only 3 years earlier!
edj66 11 months ago
We're coming in to make autographs, stand by.
Momentimum 1 year ago
Does anyone know which runway at YYZ the first flight took off from?
JTF2CSOR1 1 year ago
@JTF2CSOR1 The former runway 32 (now a taxiway beside the present 33R).
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago
Plain and simple, the Arrow was a beautiful plane and is historically one of the best Canadian achievements. Imagine what this country would be like if Dief hadn't been a butt head and killed it. If only the Orenda engine had of been built from the beginning instead of using the Pratts, it would have taken the records for sure. Good business point tho, why give the Pratt the credit when it would make the Orenda famous. It was just was ahead of its time. Remarkable none the less.
enjoycollecting 1 year ago
xXwirelessXx says: "No, actually, I'm just going by what I believe, and I don't want to argue with you. So please stop messaging me."
raynus1 1 year ago
xXwirelessXx says: "Born and raised in Western Canada eh? Well you sound more like a stuck up American that thinks he knows all. Sorry for tweaking, but you piss people off when you " present facts and figures to articulate a position"
raynus1 1 year ago
xXwirelessXx says: "STFU buddy you think your the shit? your probably some stuck up prick of an American, i was just making a comment on my views of the Avreo Aero, u probably read Wikipedia and have been plagiarizing and have no right to chirp me for my views. BTW your not cool for having arguments on you tube so get a life you good for nothing loser"
raynus1 1 year ago
Attention on deck: xXwirelessXx, after sending me a very rude personal message, has now demanded that I stop messaging him. So, as a rebuttal, I'll make this reply public to respect his wishes. xXwirelessXx, spineless jellyfish that he is, states that he prefers to stick with his 'beliefs' pertaining to the 'Avreo Aero' (to paraphrase), rather than documented historical fact. He's likely a Liberal; Probably from Central Canada. Liberals don't deal well with reality. That is all. Carry on.
raynus1 1 year ago
@raynus1 Perhaps we should continue to refer to this mythologic aircraft as the "Aero" (or "Errow") to properly distinguish it from the historic Arrow.
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago
@LeopoldPlumtree It is interesting, though you are saying it in a very funny way. But we don't really have a fully comprehensive view of the real plane. largly because it never got the oportunity to prove itself, leaving things open to rumor inuendo falacy fantasy mixed with fiction speculation and truth. It would be nice to just no it all. be if we did just think of all this fun we'd be missing out on.
mahoganyrush300 1 year ago
I cant believe they scraped the Avro, it was the best interceptor of the time and the gay U.S. presidud (lol) bullied our PM into scraping it, all because it was better than anything the US could ever dream of making at that time
xXwirelessXx 1 year ago
@xXwirelessXx: Dwight Eisenhower was a 'Gay Dud'? How old are you? Twelve?
raynus1 1 year ago
@xXwirelessXx
Typical Canadian propaganda my dear boy. Read some of the other comments below, and other threads, you will see how wrong you are.
JohnQRandom 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom Typical Canadian propaganda? No, compared to the US canada is never heard of in any history txt book except our own. and eisenhower was a genius, but the theory is that he bullied diefenbaker into scraping iit, and i believe that, because the US thinks there the shit, and the're not. And im not 12
xXwirelessXx 1 year ago
@xXwirelessXx
My boy, you are talking to people on this thread far older, more experienced, and smarter than you are. The promo that was made about this aircraft was a far cry from reality, and was made with the intent to make Canadians feel that it was the Americans who forced your government to scrap it. Raynus, whose comments can be read below, also posts his comments on numrous other Avro threads. Have a word with him, as of right now I don't have time.
JohnQRandom 1 year ago
@JohnQRandom The Arrow heads also seem to overlook the fact that the Americans ofered to help finance the Arrow not kill it.
banjer4u 1 year ago
@banjer4u
I don't doubt that one bit. As if we would pass a chance to stay ahead of the Soviets in favor of a pissing contest with Canada. Where the hell is the logic there??
JohnQRandom 1 year ago
@xXwirelessXx : It was your 'boogeyman' Eisenhower who warned about the looming 'Military Industrial Complex' that lefties love to quote & predicate endless conspiracy theories on. It was the Eisenhower administration that axed the very advanced XF-108 program, an American interceptor design that exceeded the Arrow's capabilities in almost every conceivable way. And Eisenhower most certainly didn't bully anyone into dropping the CF-105 program...especially a prairie hard-ass like Diefenbaker.
raynus1 1 year ago
My grandfather was an engineer who worked on her.
RIP GrandDad :)
The Arrow is engraved on his headstone
DeliciousMike 1 year ago
The canceling had to do with only one reason: NORAD
The government had to choose between the aircraft OR the radar system in the north to track the soviets but couldn't afford both. History tells us that the soviet menace never manifested, thus all these radar ended up being useless in the end. If only we didn't get into NORAD...we would've had this awesome plane, and Avro would still make fighters, which would solve our little F-35 problem.
NORAD is only an outdated cold war monument, anyway.
anarchyXI 1 year ago
@anarchyXI>> "History tells us that the soviet menace never manifested, thus all these radar ended up being useless in the end."
Um, the Arrow was being designed solely to defend against that very same menace. The radar network would have been necessary either way (or Soviet bombers would have been able to fly over parked Arrows ;)...
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago
That is interesting! I was 16 when I managed a trip from Scarborough (when the Golden Mile was on the edge of the city) to Malton with a friend. We climbed the fence to get a good look at 201. We were awestruck I had already made up my mind I was going to fly that airplane. It didn't work out that way. Instead I flew the CF-104 in the nuclear strike role in Germany. That's life. I thoroughly enjoyed my stint in the RCAF. The Arrow is a beautiful design.
notnick99 1 year ago 7
@notnick99 you are a very lucky man!!!! I juined the RCAF in 67 and I was 17 years old, I remember we still had the Chipmunk around but I neveer got the chance to try one did you? It make me mad to think about that lost opportunity that was the Avro Arrow. We could have gone soo far in that line.....
49richard 1 year ago
According to "Kennedy and Diefenbaker" by Knowlton Nash, the St. Laurent gov't before Diefenbaker had intended to scrap the Arrow because it was way over budget. They didn't do it because they lost the election. There were KGB moles at Avro, that's one reason they cut the planes up. According to "Learning to Love the Bomb" by Sean Maloney, the planes were cut up and all blueprints retrieved because some plans were for how to install the nuclear air-to-air MB-1 "Genie" rocket.
synthfreakify 1 year ago
@synthfreakify: Wouldn't surprise me a bit. C.D. Howe, Laurent's 'Minister of Everything' conceded that the Arrow needed to be cancelled..after the Conservatives took power. Yes, the Genie and Falcon were to be the Arrow's armament after the Sparrow II/ASTRA system was dropped. Makes sense that any reference to them would be destroyed..especially if Soviet moles had infiltrated Avro.
raynus1 1 year ago
Comment removed
nsla 1 year ago
Correction, 201.
nsla 1 year ago
Both Raynus1, and LeopoldPlumtree, surely you can concede that it was beautifully played by Canada, and that the Interceptor was designed to perform exactly as planned. I am still pissed at the world that 301 is not still out there.
It truly was a beautiful design.
Dan P
nsla 1 year ago
@nsla The Arrow was impressive and exceptionally beautiful. I'd never say otherwise. Of course, looks weren't vital to filling the Arrow's intended role, but even though it was never fully proven, I don't doubt it would have been a plenty capable aircraft had development continued.
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago
@LeopoldPlumtree Point taken. Beautiful, but never proven. :) Still, to dream a dream, eh? Kinda like what James Dean, Jimi Hendrix, Marilyn Monroe, or JFK may have been. Always leave the audience wanting more. :)
nsla 1 year ago
Does anyone know which runway at YYZ the first flight took off from?
Live2Race82 1 year ago
@Live2Race82: Runway 32 (now a taxiway).
raynus1 1 year ago
The Internet is truly a remarkable resource.
Tonight, by chance, I came across this video copy of a
16mm. movie that I wrote and edited 52 years ago.
"Flight Of The Arrow."
At the time, I was employed as a scriptwriter for Avro Aircraft
in Toronto. It was astonishing, and strangely emotional, for
me to find this film again after all this time.
-- Sidney Allinson,
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada.
SidSuggests 1 year ago
undisputed greatest airplane ever built
MonkeyKong21 1 year ago
The Arrow was capable of Mach 2 even without the Iroquois engine installed. Imagine what it could have done with the Iroquois. My guess would be Mach 2.5, which would put it right up there with most of today's state-of-the-art aircraft. Not bad for a plane designed more than half a century ago. No wonder the Americans wanted it. When Avro ceased operations, our loss became NASA's and Great Britain's gain. Oh, well!
Sealy57 1 year ago
I am dumbfounded that among the Arrow, the Iroqouis and the Jetliner---none survived. All were outstanding products and did not deserve to be cut up to scrap.
avro206 1 year ago 2
@avro206 There is an Iroquois in the National Aeronautical Collection in Ottawa; along with the nose section and the wing tips of RL206
bobcat188 1 year ago
@bobcat188 --I was there a few years back, thanks. Very sad--it's just a ghost. Next stop the Toronto air museum---full sized Arrow replica!
avro206 1 year ago
Comment removed
xristo702 1 year ago
What a sad story the Arrow was for the history of flight. Too bad.
49bobbyk 1 year ago
It was a beautifull design and.
tenorismo 1 year ago
@buckbuckaroo1 Definbaker canceled the project and put 50 thousand people out of work!!! buck!
Kmacster 1 year ago
@Kmacster: Oh, waaaa. It was government-sponsored corporate welfare to begin with.
raynus1 1 year ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
US has a long history of shutting down advanced aeronautical programs of friendly countries Avro Arrow, IAI Lavi, BAC TSR 2....
krenim786 1 year ago
@buckbuckaroo1 I've been having a little fun digging around about it, and from what I know, it was misinformation, rising costs, and poor advice. This could be wrong, for all I know, but it's what I've got.
KameronAnemone 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Prime minister Definbaker of the conservitive party shut the program down. Canada`s Nasa equivilent shut down in a day. black friday. Vote Liberal, Ndp, hell Green party. anyone but those small minded torries.
Kmacster 1 year ago
@Kmacster: If the Liberals, NDP, and BQ had their way, Canada wouldn't even have an effective air force. Guess you haven't been following the whole F-35 thing, have you?
Comparing Avro Canada to NASA is like comparing RollerBlade to BMW.
raynus1 1 year ago 4
Comment removed
Kmacster 1 year ago
@raynus1 the arrow was a liberal program canceled by the concervitive party lead by john definbaker, Avro was well on its way to being comparable to Nasa and at the time built a plane that others said was impossible. Your a know nothing simpleton get your facts stright and hey heres an idea.. watch the feature film `the arrow` might give you some insight into the topic. oh and we dont have an effective air force. or amry, or navy.
Kmacster 1 year ago
@Kmacster: If you think CBC's 'The Arrow' serves as accurate historical fact, you're more of an idiot than even your previous posts would suggest.
raynus1 1 year ago 4
Bloody Russians Copied our Plane -.-
iAppleinyourface 1 year ago
She was so beautiful, sleek and sexy. Such a crime what happened to this magnificent aircraft.
RocketShipV2 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Greatest ever, the Americans would have been in shell shock. Every modern aircraft owes there modern look, and flight dynamics to this. With out this, Concorde, and most of the Mercury Space program wouldn't have flown. Thanks a lot Diefenbaker
flightsimfreek 1 year ago
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raynus1 1 year ago
it looks normal now, imagine how futuristic it looked back then
killaxsoldier 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
Leopold the closest that the U.S. came to the Arrow wasn't until 1962 for the SR71 Blackbird which was NOT a fighter jet with a speed of Mach 1.6, the Arrow was made in 1953 and the models alone were flown at Mach 1.7+ before being intentionally crashed into Lake Ontario in which they were finally recovered off the coast of Kingston in 1997. My point which you obviously missed to Projekkt was that it wasn't just an internal strife for Canadians that caused the cancellation of the Arrow.
PhrostBack 1 year ago
@PhrostBack The US already had the F-106 which was capable of mach 2+. The SR-71 had two early-60s predecessors in the A-12 and YF-12 (also intended to be an interceptor like the Arrow). These were all mach 3+ aircraft. Flight testing for the Arrow started in 1958 (it wasn't made in 1953; the project was only beginning), which was limited to mach 1.98, though could conceivably have been better than mach 2. Your claim that the cancellation was more than internal has no real support I've seen.
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago 6
@LeopoldPlumtree
I can totally see what you're talking about with the 106. Had never actually heard of it before. Creepy similarities, though, especially in the cockpit layout! I think one hand was talking to the other!! Thanks for the info! Which of course begs the question...... what else was being shared? Did canada really have the upper hand on a Mach 2+ interceptor in the 50's? WTF??
nsla 1 year ago
Comment removed
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@LeopoldPlumtree
@LeopoldPlumtree
I can totally see what you're talking about with the 106. Had never actually heard of it before. Creepy similarities, though, especially in the cockpit layout! I think one hand was talking to the other!! Thanks for the info! Which of course begs the question...... what else was being shared? Did canada really have the upper hand on a Mach 2+ interceptor in the 50's? WTF??
nsla 1 year ago
Also I have watched the movie, and I watched it for what it was, A MOVIE. Projekt you probably also believe mummy and daddy didn't tuck you in enough at night too. You're a sad sad little man with penis envy that the U.S. didn't come up with the arrow first.
PhrostBack 1 year ago
@PhrostBack That's not a very substantial rebuttal. Unless you're just trolling, would you care to provide more than sophomoric insults? The US did come up with an aircraft of the Arrow's class before the Arrow in the F-106. TheProjektcc wasn't slamming the Arrow. There have been many outlandish, unsupportable claims made about the CF-105. Pointing out that there have been other machines just as amazing isn't an insult to Arrow.
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago 5
This has been flagged as spam show
LOL TheThruster24.
@TheProjektcc I believe you need to keep your mouth shut when it comes to things you don't know what you're talking about. You're the type of person that makes the world hate America, talking shit you know nothing about. IDIOT! =)
PhrostBack 1 year ago
The Avro arrow was made from bacon and was fueled by syrup......Blaah Blaah....Canada is amazing and rapes everyone. Get over it America !
TheThruster24 1 year ago
@TheThruster24
America had very little to do with the cancellation of this plane. Look it up. It was all internal strife amongst the Canadians and only the Canadians.
TheProjektcc 1 year ago 5
during the flight it sounds like a german and a russian communicating on the radio..ha-ha...now THAT"S Canada for you
madwithpower62 1 year ago
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Eisenhower didn't want an interceptor like the Arrow guarding the U.S. He didn't want to look inferior to the world, he pressured Dief into scrapping it through the potential of several boycotts. I agree with your point that it makes no sense but it is true, and there are records if you dig deep enough. I also agree with that It would have been extremely beneficial for the U.S. and Canada even up and into the late 70's and early 80's.
PhrostBack 1 year ago
@PhrostBack It all sounds very anecdotal. Where does one have to "dig" for these records? What are the sources backing up the claim the US was behind the Arrow's cancellation? Why did the US aid in the Arrow's development if they were looking to kill the program?
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago 6
@PhrostBack
You're an idiot who beleives foolish myths. Canadians have all the right to be proud of their invention but not to the point where they make ridiculous claims. The threat of ballistic missiles and the decline of straight forward interceptors world wide, combined with the cost of development and production, and internal Canadian disagreements ended this plane.
Go watch the film "there never was an arrow" trust me the last thing the US would do is cancel it.
TheProjektcc 1 year ago 6
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I'm not going to invest the time to track down articles relating to Diefenbaker but it is a well know fact that at that time the U.S. was still pretty immature in it's relationship with Canada, it was a pissing contest they couldn't win and knew it so they threatened to boycott Canadian exports, Dief caved and scrapped the arrow. I had first hand accounts from great aunts and uncles who were privy to information at the time as well so I'll take their words. I agree with your point about benefit.
PhrostBack 1 year ago
@PhrostBack There was no "pissing contest" between Canada and the US. The Arrow was just one program and was of no threat to the US aerospace industry. Plenty of US aerospace projects have been cancelled just as the Arrow was, but without the fanciful claims of conspiracy. The Arrow was just another mach 2 aircraft developed at a time when there were a number of other mach 2 aircraft in service or under development in the UK, France and the US.
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago 5
@LeopoldPlumtree
so true the canadians have a right to be proud of their creation but it was one of many exotic mach 2 designs of the era to be scrapped and the Idea of america silencing it is ridiculous.
There are plenty of occasions of the US purchasing foreign weapons systems. Ex( harrier jump jet) if this plane was as good as the hopeful Canadians had dreamed it would be, the last thing the US would try to do would be to end the program especially during the cold war.
TheProjektcc 1 year ago 6
Leave it to Diefienbaker to let the U.S. bully Canada into scrapping it back the 50's.
PhrostBack 1 year ago
@PhrostBack There's no reason to believe Diefenbaker was bullied by the US into chopping the Arrow. There's no record of such a thing ever happening. The entire premise makes no sense; having another interceptor like the Arrow guarding the north pole would've benefited the US just as much as Canada.
LeopoldPlumtree 1 year ago 5
@PhrostBack: Ridiculous Canadian Myth. Diefenbaker was anything but a pushover, and, save a warm relationship with Dwight Eisenhower, typically didn't care much for Americans. During the that era, it was the Liberals who tended to cozy up to US industry, not the Conservatives...that was long before the LPC turned into the rabid anti-american loonies they are today. Cost killed the CF-105 program. Cost and a misguided, worldwide, belief that the manned interceptor was obsolete.
raynus1 1 year ago 9
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@EngineerAeronautical ... RL203 maintained Mach 1.9 ! Mach 2+ would have come in RL206 with the Iroquois Engines, which never had a chance to fly before the program was cancelled.
mikeluvs2fly 1 year ago
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America knew it was stronger then any of there aircrafts so they asked Canada to disassemble it because it was to good for them, we were in the future, they were in the past. If it was that good LEAVE IT BE, but no! It's all america's fault! I say lets find the old blueprints and rebuild it!
2010kian23 1 year ago
@2010kian23 I second that opinion! :D
RandomAnimationsInc 1 year ago
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The Avro Arrow > you're countries plane ;]
Love4SK 1 year ago
Arrow + RCAF March past :D
viroy1064 1 year ago
The whole thing was just a "proof-of-concept" for developing the American "Valkyrie", which was lift-plane for a CIA SCRAM-jet spyplane. The imagined "hop & pop" scenario of intercepting Soviet Mach 3 bombers at 70,000 was never going to happen because of the short range of supersonic aircraft. The "Arrow" program was to be cancelled before the first flight which is why the flight-simulator was rigged to portray an un-flyable aircraft. The Liberals squandered(in today's money $10B) for the US
NormN354 2 years ago
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lol is that what they taught u in school?.... is to be cancelled?? i think what you meant to say was, 'americans are way too greedy and cant stand to see a country with something better than them'... im sorry to offend you if ur american, but that's what happened
vonfred54 2 years ago
MFU. The Liberals from St Laurent on have been giving away Canada for their own personal profit. Why do you think Canadians pay $100 billion a year in interest payments to American banks? Trudeau got a kick back from every billion paid out, the way Martin didn't pay taxes on his shipping company. Also, the 104 Starfighter could fly Mach 2.2, climb faster and fly further when the "Arrow" was on the drawing board. Your "Superplane" was no more advanced than the one the Argentines were working on.
NormN354 2 years ago
@NormN354 If it was a "proof-of-concept" program, then why did the USAF offer to buy the planes off the production line and give them to the RCAF? Top officials in the USAF and Avro were on record as saying the offer was made. They wanted to keep the production line open. Between Avro and Canadair, some of the best work in advanced interceptors was being done north of the border.
40thCapeRifles 1 year ago
@40thCapeRifles I've read a lot of "ArrowHead" propaganda and never found this claim. Get the "First Person Singular" progrram from the CBC. Lester Pearson says of the Arrow cancellation "At least it saved us(the Liberals) from having to do it,. It was too expensive". Any offer would have jumped on. The Canberra bomber and the Harrier fighter-bomber are the only planes the Americans ever bought from outsiders and then only out of immediate necessity.
NormN354 1 year ago
@NormN354: Although not as spectacular in their design, large numbers of Canadian-built Noorduyn Norsemen, deHavilland DHC-2 Beavers, DHC-3 Otter, and DH-4 Caribou aircraft were also purchased by the US military, from WWII through the 1960's.
raynus1 1 year ago 3