Matt 24:30-31 is not the Rapture. Note that the word "Heaven" in scripture can mean God's home, outer space, and the atmosphere of the earth. Gen 1:8,15,20
Those indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be like Jesus when He calls. They won't need angels. These people are saints in earthly bodies and are lifted into the air as Jesus comes to destroy His enemies beneath them as they watch. Only believers will survive the Tribulation.
praise the Lord that you've turned to christ...but much still has to happen for him to return...such as the mark of the beast and the antichrist must come to power.
However we may indeed see some miraculous signs this year...its very possible that things will progress rapidly.
6th seal: should be in december of 2012 if your still alive, the sun will go dark for three days and the sky/ atmosphere will roll up like a scroll and thats when the second coming will happen. My logic says that if the atmosphere were to roll up like a scroll I would sufocate though. I found Jesus only a short time ago and am lucky. Life is a gestation period for the soul, and the real world is non physical, hard to believe but its the truth.
the 7 seals.1:white horse is the UN and the crown is the british crown.2: the red horse is Osama bin Laden who took peace from the earth, the sword is the sword of alah and the flag is red.3: the black horse is Baraq o'bama, hurt not the oil or the wine, he invaded Libiya and next Iran for oil, and has the scales of the us economy near collapse.4: Pale horse, In time of the Pandemic Flu all power will be handed to FEMA over the fourth part of the earth.5: Heaven for some6:
shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? READ the ENTIRE CHAPTER-said same things as Jesus, Paul and rest! NOW, FULLY READ HEBREWS 11 for what TRUE FAITH is! No, not just verse 1 or the NICE verses-READ ALL of it! Amen
Ever notice how Secret Imminent Pre-Trib Rapturists do that and most to Scripture? Also in 2nd Peter 3 they MISQUOTE: "10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;..." Like with Rightly Judging Others and True Faith-choosing the verses they like. Now, lets READ the TRUTH about this, "THIEF in the NIGHT"... verse 11: "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein...
That verse makes it very blunt doesn't it. The day of the Lord...the final day...when he returns with his angels who gather his elect from the four winds.
I think its the survival instinct that creates the desire to see things differently.
don't forget what verses 25 - 28 say though. When we see those things come to pass, look up for your redemption draweth nigh.
We were given these signs so that we might watch to ensure that day doesn't overtake us like a thief...the day of the Lord.
Its not saying we're going to escape in a pre-trib rapture..but that we find salvation in Christ rather than coming under the judgment for the wicked on that day.
Am I praying for an ESCAPE? You Betcha," I want to be an Escape artist. How about you?
Plus I don't want to disobey my Lord that told me to pray always to be worthy to escape.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
If you face the tribulation with it's persecution then execution then you were not found worthy to ESCAPE
the biggest chapter in the bible for me is John 6. We know the dead in Christ will rise FIRST before we are taken up. So when does Christ raise the dead? "That I shall not loose none of all that He has given me, but raise him up on THE LAST DAY. everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY. No one can come to me unless the Father draws him and will raise him up at the LAST DAY." He says it a 4th time as well in chapter 54
I agree that believers who are watching will know just like the Magi knew when the Child Jesus was born. The prophetess Anna was also watching and waiting in the temple.
However, aren't the Lord's return and the Rapture 2 separate events?
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
It's interesting that pre-tribbers teach that it is imminent and say that the rapture has been imminent since the setting up of the church. Christ predicted the type of death peter would die, yet if the rapture was imminent why would he have even commented on Peter's death. It was because he knew Peter would die before his return, showing that it really wasn't imminent.
@eddienickels1 btw,i just got into a discussion with some other pretribbie.it started out good,but when i watched one of his movies that he sent me,he started preaching a false gospel.saying that we should keep the feasts and sabbaths.when i posted a daozen scripts that go against his false teaching,he blocked me and removed the scripts.he has his own wierd lil church.i guess he didnt want his drones seeing my posts.ill send his movies to ya.u'll luv'em,i promise.tell him i said hello!hee hee!
@TheKJVberean i think when it comes to scripture we need to be as acurate as possible on these things.Jesus is telling us to be looking for AC.also,thats another thing that clues us in on the timming of the rapture.if the trib starts at the midst of the 70th week of dan,why would we be raptured 31/2 yrs before it?and there's nothing in the bible saying that.the answer really lies in the sun/moon.thats a solid point.ive talked to many pretribs,and no one is able to deal with it.what do u say?
@TheKJVberean Even Luke .. the whole chapter tells you 1) it won't be imminent! (verse 7- 25.. the Signs Christ give before He comes, a promise, not a "well, it could be in the middle, or none of this stuff could happen). 2) There are 2 deaths mentioned : 1st -- believers will be killed (verse 16), but not "Perish" (verse 18), ...... hmm. Then who will perish and when? Unbelievers. When? Verse 26, at The Signs! What comes "as a thief" and A SNARE (a trap)? verse 34-35. The Day of the Lord.
@KeyboardPacifist So then....... what are you praying to escape ? Can't be simpler. The one and only thing you pray for when you first cry out to God. Repent and you will be Saved on the Last Day. You will not perish - but have everlasting life. The wicked get caught in the snare of the cares of this life - and though YOU will be killed, you will not perish - as they will. That is what you pray to escape. It's the only Salvation theme throughout the New Testament.
I think that some pretribbers will fall away... just as many did after WW1 and WW2. Hard times come and they thought that YHSWH would come on their timetable... instead of HIS. And then I think that some pre-tribbers will suffer and draw closer to the Messiah. This is the 'watchfulness' that Our Savior desires. It's a shedding of the old safety blanket and pet-dogma.. and a looking to Christ as a transformation of our minds. In this comfortable society.. so hard to find, just as Sodom
@TheKJVberean no,the fact that if CHRIST were to come today that we would be ready is NOT all that matters.obviously these other things matter heavily also being that we are told several times thru scripture to NOT be decieved concerning them.
@TheKJVberean where are we told anywhere that the trib is 7 years?the abomination marks the midst of 7th week spoken of by daniel(dan9:27).Jesus says that THAT'S when there will be great tribulation in mat24:21-AFTER the midpoint which leaves only 3and 1/2 yrs for trib.
@TheKJVberean notice that the script u just quoted,is AFTER CHRIST is seen in the clouds rapturing the church"whenYOU see these things"how can you see them if uve been raptured already by that point?u cant say the church is watching from heaven because it says Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.all this is AFTER CHRIST comes in clouds.the things that we escape is the mens heart failing(wrath of GOD)
@TheKJVberean just had a thought.even if these 24 elders do rep the church.why does that mean the rapture has occured at that point?they might be in heaven RIGHT NOW representing the church.in chronicles,the 24 levites who represented all the tribes entered into the house of the LORD.does that mean ALL of isreal came into the house of the LORD?no,they were being represented by the levites.and this could be true of how the church is rep in heaven at this very moment.doesnt mean we're raptured now
@TheKJVberean all these things u say to back up the 24 elders theory still isnt enough.let me ask u this,is elijah redeemed?is it possible that he and enoch and moses and those that rose shortly after CHRIST' ressurection have crowns and white raiment?in luke 19,it says that they appeared in glory on the mnt of transfiguration.im not banging the desk on this,im just saying that the bible doesnt come out and tell us its the church.and the sun/moon arent darkened till rev6,so the timming is wrong
@TheKJVberean again,i'm with u,i believe the rapture and return to set up mellinial kingdom are 2 diff events,so we dont need to debate that.but let me point out that u are using an alegory to show pretrib rapture.ur even calling it a "picture"of the rapture.but the bible gives us several examples of the literal event and pretribs have to explain them to be something else other than the rapture because NONE of them take place before the trib.btw,how many ressurections do u believe there are?
@TheKJVberean to descend doesnt nessesarily mean that HE must touch the ground.also the event in 1thes is refered to as DOL,and DOL is marked by the sun/moon darkening.we see this happen in mat24:29 and right afterward,we see the rapture,exactly as paul said.also,i dont believe the rapture occurs anywhere around rev19-ur confussing me with post trib-im pre wrath.which means that i believe the rapture occurs after the trib,but before the wrath.post tribs believe in the u-turn,i dont.
@TheKJVberean .i didnt say rev was not chronological.i understand that we are kings and priest,but that does not mean that the 24 elders rep the church.like i said earlier,in order for the LORD to be seen in the clouds,he would have to descend from the 3rd heaven.also,i agree that the rapture and the return are 2 diff events.but 1thes is the rapture and so is mat24.1thes says we are caught up in the air to meet him and he appears in the air in mat24 also.
@TheKJVberean i realise there's amillion and one passages of scripture that can be alegorized to create the illusion of a pretrib rapture.but if we go about interpreting the bible alegorically,and ignore clear passages,then we can make the bible say anything we want.for example,the 24 elders of rev4.every pretrib says thats the raptured church.but does the bible say that?NO!but the bible does clearly refer to the rapture as the DOL(TWICE!!)and joel and JESUS give us the timming CLEARLY.God bless
@TheKJVberean now going back to the DOL/DOC,if paul says that the DOC cant occur until the falling away and revelation of AC,then that destroys the immenency doctrine altogether.2 things must happen 1st.there's really no room for an honest arguement here.now the DOL occurs AFTER the sun/moon are darkened according to joel2:31 and the sun/moon darkening occurs AFTER the trib according to mat24&mark13,so if the rapture is included in the DOL like paul says,then the rapture is post trib.......
@TheKJVberean so that's why it doesnt add up,as u say.taken out doesnt mean raptured.we have to be careful of the meanings that we assign to phrases.its easy to do if we're told by our teachers enough times that "taken out"means raptured.also,u quoted the script as sayin "we" must be taken out,but the script says"he".and of course i agree with u that this in NO way could be the Holy Spirit.
@TheKJVberean why do i say that?because it wouldnt make sence chronologically with the rest of the chaptr.paul states that the gathering(rapture)cant take place until the falling away and the AC is revealed.so in order for the restrainer to be the church and the taking out be the rapture,paul would have been saying that the gathering(rapture)cant occur until the rapture occurs.just think about it for a second.if the rapture would have to occur for the AC to be revealed,thats wut paul wuldve said
@TheKJVberean now skydiver does an excellent vid describing his take on the restrainer,and he agrees that its the church.but it is not removed"taken out"the way most pretribs say.he believes that the falling away is the removal so the antichrist(AC)can be revealed.i think its a good theory,but i dont pound the desk on theories,although he uses an excellent exegisis of the context of the chptr to back it up.but one thing that i am ABSOLUTELY sure of is that the the removal is not by rapture...
@TheKJVberean 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.---
and--- 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
@TheKJVberean 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.....
@TheKJVberean ok,im gonna try to address everything as best i can,so please be patient with me and read my answer carefully,as i have read ur statements several times to make sure i'm understanding u.yes indeed,bro,i understand that the 1000 yr reign is the day of the LORD(DOL).but the DOL begins with the rapture and the rapture is included in the DOL.read 1thes4:16-5:2.paul clearly refers to the rapture as the DOL.and again he refers to the gathering(rapture) as the day of CHRIST in 2thes2....
@TheKJVberean yes,brother,ive read 2thes2 very carefully many times.so many that when i accidently drop my bible,it opens to 2thes chpt2-hee hee.look,if ya have a specific point that u are trying to get across in 2thes,please just come out and say it,because to me,2thes has post trib written all thru it.but we can talk for months about it if ya want.i just like having peacful intelligent conversations about the word and figured u did to.fyi,i dont seperate fellowship with pre tribs.we're bros!
@TheKJVberean the funny thing is that eddienickels and i agree on the rapture occuring after trib,but you and i agree that the church is removed and brought to heaven while the wrath of God is being poured.but i bet u and i do not agree that the seals(tribulation) are not the wrath of GOD.that's ok,we can still be friends.but i say the trib is not the wrath,but what ensues afterwards is.(trumpet and vile judgements) during seals,antichrist is claiming to be God,but that ends when wrath is poured
@TheKJVberean Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
the phrase "looking after"means expecting or anticipating.they know that God's wrath is about to fall.where as before they were persecuting the church,they are now on the other end of the stick.the DAY OF THE LORD is about to begin.and it begins with Christ comming in the clouds to raptuer hi churc AFTER the trib.
@TheKJVberean luke 21:34-36 tells those that "see these things come to pass"to pray.how can they see these things come to pass if they are raptured before the trib?Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.ur right,GOD is not putting the bride thru HIS judgement,but the trib is NOT his judgement.mens hearts fail when they see Christ because THAT'S when his judgement falls.
@TheKJVberean 1thes4 & mat24 are NOT 2 seperate events.u say in 1thes,CHRIST brings church to heaven,but mat24 is his 2nd comming.if u look at the parallel scripts of mat 24,u see that CHRIST gathers church FROM earth TO heaven:Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.1thes,yes he descends,but in order for him to be seen in the clouds,isnt a descension in order?
For any pre-tribulation believer I would like to ask some questions 1) Do you have to be dead to be resurrected ?2) When are dead in Christ raised ? 3) when do we appear before Jesus without sin ? 4) Would you please use three verses of the scriptures?
You tell those pesky Thessalonians! They sure did start to worry when all their loved ones started to die because Paul had told them the Return of Jesus was imminent. But hey, what did Paul know? You know way better than Paul. It's not imminent. Nope. Oh wait, yeah it is. Imminent then. Imminent now.
@prewrathrapture333 The letters to Thessalonica are the attempts of Paul to calm the Church down because they were freaking out when they started to die and it hadn't occurred yet. If Paul hadn't told them it was imminent, why were they freaking out? Yeah...sometimes you have to use a couple of neurons. Saying "give me a Scripture where Paul emphatically says that in present tense or I won't believe it," is just a dishonest way of pretending to care abt Scripture while ignoring context.
@Rogueoftroy just like a pretribby,all i did was ask a question and im already getting insulted.im not wasting my time with a babe,i thought i could possibly engage u in an intelligent conversation,but i can see right off,that is going to be impossible.if u appologize for implying that i am stupid,i promise i will politely dismantle your arguement,but if u cant be friendly,just forget it.when u mature in the faith,give me a call.
@prewrathrapture333 Pretribby? That's about the lamest and most infantile jab I've ever heard. All you posttrib people do is condescend and feign outrage. And you seriously need some tougher skin. The Scripture is full of allusions to and pictures of the Rapture. You would dismantle my argument? Hardly. More like you would cite a whole bunch of verses out of context and then tell me I'm not a real Christian if I don't agree with your interpretation. Just like every posttribber always does.
@Rogueoftroy i call post tribs post tribbys and even pre wrathys also.anyway,wutever,its not about having tough skin,trust me my skin is nice and tough.it's about being obeidient to CHRIST we're supposed to speak the truth in love,but u dont seem willing,so 4get it,like i said.
@prewrathrapture333 It takes a special kind of ego to believe that you are doctrinally infallible. You're going to speak the truth to me in love? Well thank God that YOU, the great sage, have come to "fix" me. Lol.
@JesusHoldMyHand1 what scripture tells us that they werent raptured?in rev20:5,it tells us that they were part of the 1st ressurection.if the ressurection of the dead occurs before the rapture of the living(1thes4),then they died in the trib and were caught up in the air with the church AFTER the trib.rev20 actually proves the rapture to take place AFTER the tribulation by telling us that tribulation saint were part of the 1st ressurection.
Rev 16:15 KJV - Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 KJV - And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 KJV - And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
The Vials, trumpets, seals. all end at the same time.
@gatorz27 what in scripture tells us that the seals,trumpets and vials all end together?surely not rev16:15-17.it says nothing about them all ending at the same time.now i believe the 7th trumpet in rev11 contains the 1st vial which picks back up in rev15.in fact rev 15 refers to the vials as the 7 LAST plagues infuring that the vials come AFTER the trumpets.the 7th seal begins the 1st trumpet,so the seals are ended then and the 7th trumpet ends at the 1st seal,ending the trumpets.
Job 14:12 KJV - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 KJV - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 KJV - If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
@gatorz27 but dont u see that job was mistaking the tribulation that was brought on him by satan(which God allowed)for the wrath of GOD?you have to put the statement in context.what was happening to job and who was actually inflicting the pain on him?pre tribs do the same thing.they mistake the seals which is the trib brought on by satan(which God allows and is sovreign over ie:the breaking of the seals)for the wrath of GOD.yet it is the trumpets and vials that are God's wrath.
at 2.26 skydiver626 you used this verse to back up your post trib view Joel 2.31 ...and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come".
Are you suggesting this verse, which is sold here as a great and terrible day, the day we get caught up b with the lord? And thus we shall always be with the LORD? Why would it be terrible? I'm fairly certain that scripture used in this youtube clip indentifies different events. Not the event postulated to scripture and event.
@robbiek77 Did you read the whole book of Joel? Joel 3:15-16 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: BUT THE LORD WILL BE THE HOPE OF HIS PEOPLE, AND THE STRENGTH OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. You see, there are two parts to the day of the Lord affecting 2 different groups. Unbelievers: wrath Believers: salvation. Just like Noah's day.
@robbiek77 Pre-tribbists try to portray the day of the Lord as a strict wrath filled event.Absolutely false.First the believers are caught up, then wrath ensues ALL ON THE SAME DAY.There's no 7 year time gap. Noah was wisked away the same day the wicked were destroyed. Lot was saved the same day Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. There's more to the day of the Lord then just Wrath.There's salvation. Why do you think Jesus used these examples when he was describing what his return will be like?
It always seems that "tribulation" Greek "thilbos" and "wrath" Greek "orge" are confused by the pretrib believers. Also, "imminence" is another word that is misunderstood. If you are handcuffed to a railroad track and you see the train coming, you know not only that your death is "imminent" but you can also see and know when it will occur as it approaches. This approaching train of events of the end time signs is what we are to be watching for. Check out my Bible study: endtimeproof dot o r g
@n2h2o2 i will admit, i do like your take on the whole watchman thing but that doesn't really do much to destroy the pre-trib rapture. The biggest hurdle for post-tribbers is how to reconcile Christ coming at a time of prosperity where their is eating, drinking and marriage - yet also come in the midst of Armageddon to rescue Israel (a time in which most if not all of the tribulation saints have been mardered and the world is in complete chaos because Gods judgements have been poured out).
@trackguy2 Thanks trackguy! I have done alot of research on this because I attended one church that was post trib and another church that was pre trib. I decided to dig in and find out the truth. I used to defend the pretrib stance but I don't any more because of the literal evidence. Not allegory or suppositions, just pure, litteral, verses. Please see my study: endtimeproof dot o r g
@trackguy2 No doubt the unsaved will still be partying up to the wrath. If you follow the chain of events, you can see a clear distinction between the tribulation and the wrath. Armagedon is during the wrath. I really believe most of the differences between pre, mid and post trib is just a small difference in the timing of events. For example, pretrib has several problems with the Olivet discourse because Jesus talks plainly (literally) of the events in order from "birth pains" to rapture.
@Kr0n1k4Lyfe Please read I Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. This was Paul speaking to the CHURCH. The truth is that Jesus will NOT overtake his church like a thief. He will only overtake those who aren't watching like a thief - the unbelievers. By stating that Christ will overtake the church like a thief is to imply that the entire church is unsaved!
@skydiver626 read the parable of the ten virgins, it has a sobering message: "While the bridegroom tarried, they ALL slumbered and slept." Mathew 25:5. This parable declares in no uncertain terms that even those who will be raptured and are true Christians will be overtaken unexpectedly. Imminency is constantly declared over and over again in scripture
@trackguy2 Yes, all the virgins fell asleap. But at midnight, a cry was heard that the bridegroom is coming. The WATCHMEN look for and see the Lord's return and sound the alarm. The watchmen were NOT sleeping and could forsee His coming by the signs. The virgins had time to trim their lamps and go out to meet Him. The watchmen are to constantly watch for the signs of His coming. If the watchmen had not awaken the virgins then All would miss the Lord and He would come as a thief in the night.
@Kr0n1k4Lyfe Secondly, like every other pre-tribber I've ever dealt with, you are confusing the great trib with the time of God's wrath. They are two entirely unique events. God's wrath is sealed until after the great trib. Please study the 6th seal and Matt 24:29 parallel. The great trib is a time of Satan's wrath - not God's!
Certainly Matt 3:12 the metaphore, describes the angles are With him, confirmed in chpt 13 and 24 also to describe the one event. No doubt the Psalmists described in Ps 50:1-3 68:1-3 at the appearence of Yeshua this planet is done! 2 Peter 3:10 shows it too. So besides this, Act 1:11 shows that it never was nor will be a secret. Again Matt 24 says as lightning, loudly too. Again Matt 24 says After the great ribulation will he appear so nobody goes anywhere untill then, period!
@receivejesusnow Nope. I just reject that it's imminent right now. Even Christ stated that he didn't know the day or the hour, yet he still told his disciples that it wouldn't occur until sometime after the trib. Paul followed suit when he told the Thessalonians that the day of Christ wouldn't come until after the falling away and after the rise of the antichrist. Therefore, Christ's return will only become truly imminent once the falling away has come to the full and the antichrist rises
@eddienickels1 - So you're showing your ignorance of Zechariah's prophecy. It says " Behold a day is coming for the Lord..." Zech. 14:1 . "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in from to Jerusalem on the east; and Mt. Olives will be split into it middle from east to west by a very large valley..." -Zechariah 14:4 . This is the WORD of God and don't laugh at it. Your supporting verse rest only on Acts.3:21 and brings you to weaker ground in your support.
@eddienickels1 - Oh you just agreed that Marriage Supper of the Lamb was placed after the judgment of the whore 20 min. ago(Rev. 19:2) These scenes are in heaven, right? And right after the MARRIAGE(Rev. 19:7-9), HE COMES DOWN TO EARTH TO BRING JUDGMENT(REV. 19:11-21). Don't tell me that Rev. 19 verse 1-10 are not scenes in heaven and it cannot be on earth because Jesus was just preparing to go down on Rev. 19:11, don't tell me you don't understand this, it is the WORD of GOD & don't twist it.
@eddienickels1 - Once again you missed the right interpretation. In the rapture, Christ did not come back to earth before Acts 3:21, & did not touch the tip of His feet on the ground, but Christ was meeting the saints in the "AIR"(1Thes. 4:17) & returns back in heaven, thus He did not violate Acts 3:21. Christ will touch earth w/the tip of His feet on Mt. OLIVES at the actual second coming(Zech.14:4).
@eddienickels1 - But Christ cannot let His BRIDE(Church) stays in the Tribulation period because the church His DARLING will receive the BEATINGS and MAULING, and KICKING for seven(7) years. Is this the kind of LOVE the Bridegroom promised to HIS BELOVED BRIDE, THE CHURCH? My goodness, this is unimaginable to think about for a Bridegroom to let HER suffer to the core, for what? instead of protecting her w/ all the TENDER LOVING CARE! This kind of view is un-lovely and uncaring!!!
@beverly6653 sorry but I have to interject here. The bridegroom suffered & died for us. The bride has been beaten, mauled & kicked since the first church was established almost 2000 years ago. And is to this very day with those who worship Jesus (at risk of their lives) in non Christian countries. As well as missionaries who go there to spread the gospel. Not trying to pick on you beverly, but do you just ignore scripture that says it's a righteous thing to suffer for Jesus who suffered for us?
@KapaMan00 : Yes, the church(Smyrna) suffered in the early days and will suffer and have tribulation for ten(10) days, Rev. 2:10. This was at the time when the church was under the rule of ten(10) Roman emperors. However Christ made a promise to the church of Philadelphia-who loves to share the gospel with brotherly love, that He will keep the church from the hour of testing which is about to come into the whole world, Rev. 3:10 . The Church already suffered & by no means,she will suffer again.
@eddienickels1 - And WHO did Jesus Married in heaven? who was the BRIDE? Is it not the CHURCH? Therefore the church must have been rapture before tribulation period and stays in heaven to be rewarded w/ awards but to be tested first by FIRE lest your crowns be lost. After the awarding & wedding ceremonies, He then goes down to earth together with His BRIDE to render final Judgment to the wicker people. The BRIDE must be w/Jesus because He said "For where I am, there you may be also." John 14:3
@eddienickels1 - You are right on Marriage Supper of the Lamb & after this He is to go down to earth(Rev.19:11), but in Rev. 19:14, the armies w/c are in heaven are following Him is the CHURCH. This is synonymous with 1Thes. 3:10 in w/c Jesus is coming together with ALL HIS SAINTS and this is the CHURCH w/c means that the church was already there in heaven(RAPTURE)before Christ comes down to earth to render His final JUDGMENT on the wicked people w/c is now the actual SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.
@eddienickels1 - You see, you don't know where to place Judgment Seat of Christ in timeline. Romans 14:9-12 is not the timeline, but the details of accountability of what we did for Jesus, in short it is a rewarding of awards(see 1Cor. 3:12-16; 2Cor.5:10. The true timeline is in Rev.22:12; 3:11, where He comes quickly & our rewards are with Him. The word "quickly" implies time to happen after the RAPTURE & can't be on the second coming 'coz this day is JUDGMENT DAY & RAPTURE is awarding time.
@eddienickels1 I don't have to do anything but what the Bible clearly states. Do your homework and let me know why Dan wasn't one of them. I know u can do it.
Everybody just believe what they want to believe. If u are satisfied in what u believe, then believe that. Why try to come down on somebody because they don't believe in what u believe? If post tribbers want to be here, then so be it. Don't try to make me here with u.
@eddienickels1 - You guys are just running around the bush, quoting so many references trying to avoid the subject I am asking for. My questions haven't been answered yet and if you know biblical prophecy you should know where to place two important great events going to happen to the church. Again questions are where do you place Judgment seat of Christ and Marriage supper of the Lamb in the prophetic timeline?
@beverly6653 The judgment seat of Christ is after the rapture of the church. It's only for those who are raptured. The Great white throne judgment is at the end of the 1000 year reign. The marriage supper is just before the Lord comes back to the earth to defend Israel. Revelation 19th chapter. It's held in heaven.
@eddienickels1 - And Oh yes, Acts 3:21 says that Christ remains in heaven until all be restored, and when He comes back to earth, He brings with Him the"raptured" church, the saints to execute judgment on the wicked people of the earth(Rev. 19:11-14; 1 Thes. 3:13). This is the actual second coming of Christ you speak, if then where do you place these events-The Judgment Seat of Christ and Marriage Supper of the Lamb? In what prophetic sequence of event you place them?
@eddienickels1 - Regardless of Greeks definition or English, it still contains the same meaning, to "Keep" out from the hour of testing(Rev. 3:10). If you do not like the word "catch up" then what is your interpretation of this verse? and where do you suggest that the church of Philadelphia will be kept from the time of tribulation period? In what place? My goodness, this is a big church, composed of all believers comprising the "Body of Christ" if not kept the church will die.
@beverly6653 All 7 Churches represent the body of Christ. The Philadelphia Church has an awesome role during the tribulation. Their door can't be shut. Not by Satan or the anitchrist. Those who say they're jews, aren't but who are liars come to worship at their feet. The Philadelphia Church will be a great place of refuge and repentance for those during the tribulation, where taking the mark of the beast isn't a temptation. A place with great protection from God. Amen Amen Amen!
@KapaMan00 The church will not be here. Maybe your church will be. The church of Jesus Christ will not be here, but in heaven. Revelation 4,5th chapters.
@rossdaboss1959 Being that it's been almost 2000 years since John wrote Revelation, there is surely a large portion of the Church in heaven right now. And thankfully they didn't believe in a pre-trib rapture otherwise they would have ran in the face of tribulation or laying down their lives for Christ who gave his life on the cross for us. If the great tribulation is going to happen anytime soon we should as Jesus' followers be ready to serve him, even at the cost of our mortal bodies.
@KapaMan00 What u really don't understand is that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath on man kind for rejecting him. His wrath is not with the church who is obeying him. It's with Israel and the world. That's why u don't hear anything the church is doing during that time. 144,000 of tribe of israel is sealed. But it don't matter. Whatever u want to believe is on u. My mind is made up already.
@rossdaboss1959 Yea I hear those who teach that Rev ch 6 & on is all God's wrath, but it isn't. That's just clever deception. The book says when God's wrath is poured out. And the Church is mentioned through out. The oil & the wine. The two witnesses are called candlesticks/lampstands just as the 7 Churches are. And of course the bride makes herself ready just before the Lord comes in ch 19. Not ch 4&5 (otherwise it would say so). Perhaps you should study more before making up your mind.
@eddienickels1 Yea unfortunately the doctrine leads to a kinda "we're better than anyone" mindset. The thing that pains me the most in my heart is the idea that the so termed "trib saints" are not part of the body of Christ (cause the body has been raptured to heaven?). Of course they are, it's the Church, but it takes a mindset of "we're gone, we're great, they're not, let them suffer". People can twist scripture but can't change it. The Bride makes herself ready just before Christ comes.
I changed from believing in the Pre Trib Rapture Theory to the Post Trib return of Christ in 1972. Both old Testament and New make sense when you start looking at the Lord's return as ONE EVENT. I no longer have to do mental contortions to get the Scriptures to somehow conform to the Pre Trib theory.
But the Pre-trib claims the church of Philadelpia, which is the church of brotherly love(Rev. 3:7:12), the church that loves to share the gospel of Christ to others & sending missionaries. Jesus has no negative comment on this church but all praise, & because of this, Christ made a promise to this church, that He will keep this church from the hour of testing, or will keep them away from tribulation period(Rev. 3:10) by snatching them away known as "Rapture".
@beverly6653 Right, pre-tribbers claim the Philadelphia church as if the letters to the 7 churches is a multiple choice questionnaire that we can split up the body of Christ & just pick from, which it's not. Those 7 1st century churches represent the "whole" church (eventhough there were more). The 7 churches also represent the churches (all believers) today, who will be here until Christ's glorious appearing. As the Lord tells each church, "he that overcometh" receives their rewards.
The video above is a typical post-trib believing church, the church of Sardis(Rev. 3:3). No offense but Sardis is a dead church, that's why Jesus has a comment on them, "if you will not wake up", the church will be left behind in the tribulation period because this church did not stand for its biblical and spiritual christian principles and let pagan principles spoils with their doctrinal truth and Jesus warns them of this things lest they suffer in tribulation period!!!
If we have to interpret the posttrib's position, then it appears that Christ at the end of tribulation period will rapture the church who had already been badly beaten to the most & highest degree, meets them in the air, then go to heaven for a short while, then makes a U-Turn and comes back again to earth together with His saints the church to render judgment to the wicked. Question is where do we place the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and "Marriage Suffer of the Lamb" in the picture of event ?
In the post tribulation theory, the church is going to suffer in the great tribulation period and they viewed the rapture and second coming of Christ as one single event at the end. If this is the case then would Christ let His Bride(church)receives all the beatings and kicking and mauling? Is this the kind of LOVE the bridegroom (Christ) offer to His Bride(the church)? this is unimaginable to think about a lover subject his darling to such beatings with all painful agony!!!
List of Bible verses that show the rapture can be only pre-trib & nothing more: 2 thes 2:1-17, Amos 5:18, Dan 7:21, Mat 16:18, Dan9:27,6, Rev 13:5-6, Rev 11:, Rev 9:11, Rev 17:8 Rev 20:3, Rev 11:3, Rev 12:7, 12:6, 12:13-14, Dan 9:24-25. Isa 26:20-21, 57:1, Mal 3:16-17, Pss 97:10, Luke 21:36, 1 Thes 1:10, 1Thes 5:9, Rom 5:8-9, 2Pet 2:9, 3:3-4, Rev 2:22, 3:10, 4:1, 8:13, 19:1, Eph 5. Pss 27:1-14, Jug 14:1-18, Gen 29:22-28, 1Jn 1:8-9, Rom 10:9-10, Mat 1-:32. These are but a few.
Stop teaching that there is a 1st coming of Christ, a 1 1/2 coming of Christ and a 2nd coming for Christ. Why is Rev 16:15 in between the 6th & 7th vial of God's wrath? Because the Second Coming, The Resurrection and The Rapture happen on the same day. Just before The Battle of Armageddon.
@eddienickels1 The hour of temptation is the hour you decide to receive the Mark of the Beast or not. If there's a pre trib Rapture, why is verse Rev. 16:15 placed in between the descriptions of the 6th & 7th vials of God's wrath? The Rapture (as well as the resurrection of the dead in Christ) will happen just before the Battle of Armageddon.
you make some intresting points, thanks for the video brother. we should all trust in Christ abosolutely knowing that He will do what is fair and just with us as He loves us absolutely. I still hold to the pre trubulation rapture for a number of reasons though, in 1 thessal 5:18 Paul tells the Church to comfort one another with these words, how is it comforting to tell the church it will experience the great tribulation? also isnt matt 25 discussing the destruction of jerusalem? Thanks
@e7c7o7 The great tribulation is not a comforting thought for any believer, however Paul does provide comfort to the church by stating, that when it's all said and done, the church will prevail and be resurrected on the last day. That's the comfort he wants us to take hold on. Matt 25 speaks of Christ's separation of the nations when he comes to physically sit on his throne in Jerusalem.
@skydiver626 The church is not Israel. When u understand the two, u will see that the church has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation. Everything God does is for a purpose. What is the church purpose in the tribulation? Israel's purpose is to spread the word of God which they never did like they were suppose to. That's why 144,000 are being sealed in the tribulation. The church is in heaven. Revelation 5:9-10. These people already have their crowns, and were redeemed from the earth.
@e7c7o7<< John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you...
John 16:1 "I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.
@LivingFaith2 This was not the great tribulation Jesus was talking about. He was talking to his disciples at that time and there was no church. And yes the disciples were persecuted. Stop taking everything to mean the church. That's how people get false doctrines. What Jesus said to his disciples, was to his disciples. What he says to the church is to the church. Understand the book of Daniel first. if u mislead people u are going to pay for it on Judgment day. u better think about it.
@e7c7o7 Keep the faith! Don't let nobody take your crown. most people can't understand a pre trib rapture, because they refuse to study prophecy and common sense. So many scriptures states we will not go through. Understanding the different between the church and Israel will help people to understand too, but they think the church has taken the place of Israel, when the church and Israel is on the earth right now. How can that be? LOL
@aTrueHybrid No, u can not add stuff in the bible, He will seal us, several places in revelaton indicate that christians are here during the tribulation, what makes some better than the other to be left??
1 Thess. 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are DEAD or ALIVE when he returns, we can live with him forever." the WRATH Paul is talking about is for the sinners, the unbelievers etc... not for the Christian who abides in the light and has God's Seal on Him.
@imusho, read the Paul's FULL sentence, 1 Thess. 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a THIEF IN THE NIGHT. 3 While people are saying, There is peace and security, then sudden destruction will come upon THEM as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and THEY will not escape. 4 BUT YOU are NOT in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief....
@lmusho There is a major misconception that the Great trib is designated for God's wrath. Not true. God's wrath is SEALED until the 6th seal. Fortunately, the 6th seal lists celestial events there also that Christ states in Matt 24:29 will not occur until after the GT. That's the true timing of God's wrath. Secondly, those claiming peace will be under full subjection to the antichrist. They will be able to buy or sell.
@skydiver626 Won't the battle of Armageddon be about to take place and everybody will be being tortured by boils and plagues and crazy demon locusts and be begging to die? Who would be saying peace and safety?
Plus, Luke 17:26, 27, etc. says they will be living life as usual right up until the Son of man is revealed. And, since one will be taken and the other left, all those "living peacefully" can't be "marked by the beast."...I'm perplexed.
@whatisreal4real u are so right. Don't let nobody take your crown. If people want to go through God's wrath, then that's their choice. All i know is when Jesus died on the cross, he said it was finished. Nothing else has to be done. The way back to the father was set. People that believe that we have to go through God's wrath to be saved, are saying that what Jesus did wasn't enough. How about people that die before the tribulation? They go to hell because they didn't go through the tribulation
@skydiver626 i can tell u don't know about the book of Daniel. Only 69 weeks were fulfilled upon israel, and there is one more week or 7 years to be fulfilled. It's called Jacob's trouble, not the church trouble. God will give Israel their last week before bringing in an end of sin, and the prophecies being fulfilled, etc. U have to read and have understanding of the whole matter, not just piece a verse and run with it. U will misled people and it's on u when u stand before God on Judgment
@lmusho U are so wise. I told people the same thing. It's just good old common sense to see a pre trib rapture. Can't God do whatever he wants? Nobody will be thinking about marrying and partying at the second coming. They will be telling the rocks to fall on them, and hide them from the Lord. Revelation 5:9-10 shows the church in heaven. We are redeemed from the earth. 4:9-11, we have our crowns already. The 24 elders represents the church.
We're caught up at the "Last Trumpet" (1 Cor. 15:51-55)... "and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be "caught up" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:13-17). How then can the "LAST TRUMPET" sound, THEN the Ressurection of the dead in Christ, and the Rapture happen 7 years BEFORE the "Last Day"?
Good presentation. It's simple and clear. The one thing that most pre-tribulationists hang their hats on regards who will populate the millennium. But, I think that's answered in Zechariah chapters 12, 13 & 14, where it's made clear that there will be non-raptured survivors of the tribulation that will go into the millennium.
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
It is awesome this truth is getting out, the devil is losing a stronghold of deception Thank You Skydiver for boosting my morale in Christ, struggling soul winner
The belief of the pre trib. rapture theory is a salvation issue. Those who believe this theory believe they will have a 2nd chance to be taken up. What if they were wrong. This theory could prevent the salvation of souls. Satan likes to appeal to our carnal minds and wishful thinking.
watch all of his videos they are also on tribulation, they are very sound, I already believe post trib although my early years as a Christian I just believed what I was taught and did not not check well enough for myself on this issue, although it does not help much for people when it is backed by top novels ny best sellers, Lord I pray Holy Spirit Teach us Jesus Name
And another thing. Its Cleary said that JOHN WAS RAPTURED B4 ALL THIS HAPPENED. (oh but mikelmillion, it was just a vision) Well if it was jus a vision God coulda just let him saw wat was gonna happen while he was on Earth instead of taking him to heaven. Why would Jesus leave his Bride to die? Only ppl that will be here is UNBELIVERS which is NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST. they only BECOME believers AFTER they have seen the Bible fulfilling its self THANK U GOOD NIGHT
mikelmilion, wasn't John in prison when he wrote Revelation? And had he been raptured out of prison and into heaven, wouldn't we be without the book of Revelation since...he wasn't there to write down the vision?
HUH!?!? Are u serious? lol...Ok...why couldnt he write these things AFTER the vision? Was there a problem?? After all it was a VISION so it was not like he left Earth, it was a VISIONNNN
Matt 24:30-31 is not the Rapture. Note that the word "Heaven" in scripture can mean God's home, outer space, and the atmosphere of the earth. Gen 1:8,15,20
Those indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be like Jesus when He calls. They won't need angels. These people are saints in earthly bodies and are lifted into the air as Jesus comes to destroy His enemies beneath them as they watch. Only believers will survive the Tribulation.
See thespiritofprophecy.ca
dknezacek1 2 weeks ago
@mrmontatabanana
praise the Lord that you've turned to christ...but much still has to happen for him to return...such as the mark of the beast and the antichrist must come to power.
However we may indeed see some miraculous signs this year...its very possible that things will progress rapidly.
Myhopeisinhim 2 weeks ago
6th seal: should be in december of 2012 if your still alive, the sun will go dark for three days and the sky/ atmosphere will roll up like a scroll and thats when the second coming will happen. My logic says that if the atmosphere were to roll up like a scroll I would sufocate though. I found Jesus only a short time ago and am lucky. Life is a gestation period for the soul, and the real world is non physical, hard to believe but its the truth.
MrMontanabanana 3 weeks ago
the 7 seals.1:white horse is the UN and the crown is the british crown.2: the red horse is Osama bin Laden who took peace from the earth, the sword is the sword of alah and the flag is red.3: the black horse is Baraq o'bama, hurt not the oil or the wine, he invaded Libiya and next Iran for oil, and has the scales of the us economy near collapse.4: Pale horse, In time of the Pandemic Flu all power will be handed to FEMA over the fourth part of the earth.5: Heaven for some6:
MrMontanabanana 3 weeks ago
shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? READ the ENTIRE CHAPTER-said same things as Jesus, Paul and rest! NOW, FULLY READ HEBREWS 11 for what TRUE FAITH is! No, not just verse 1 or the NICE verses-READ ALL of it! Amen
kenstasia 1 month ago
Ever notice how Secret Imminent Pre-Trib Rapturists do that and most to Scripture? Also in 2nd Peter 3 they MISQUOTE: "10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;..." Like with Rightly Judging Others and True Faith-choosing the verses they like. Now, lets READ the TRUTH about this, "THIEF in the NIGHT"... verse 11: "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein...
kenstasia 1 month ago
"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 1:7).
TheWeepingEagle 1 month ago
@mvmof2
That verse makes it very blunt doesn't it. The day of the Lord...the final day...when he returns with his angels who gather his elect from the four winds.
I think its the survival instinct that creates the desire to see things differently.
Myhopeisinhim 1 month ago
@bubba007sss
don't forget what verses 25 - 28 say though. When we see those things come to pass, look up for your redemption draweth nigh.
We were given these signs so that we might watch to ensure that day doesn't overtake us like a thief...the day of the Lord.
Its not saying we're going to escape in a pre-trib rapture..but that we find salvation in Christ rather than coming under the judgment for the wicked on that day.
Myhopeisinhim 1 month ago
Am I praying for an ESCAPE? You Betcha," I want to be an Escape artist. How about you?
Plus I don't want to disobey my Lord that told me to pray always to be worthy to escape.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
If you face the tribulation with it's persecution then execution then you were not found worthy to ESCAPE
bubba007sss 2 months ago
opps I ment verse 54
mvmof2 2 months ago
the biggest chapter in the bible for me is John 6. We know the dead in Christ will rise FIRST before we are taken up. So when does Christ raise the dead? "That I shall not loose none of all that He has given me, but raise him up on THE LAST DAY. everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY. No one can come to me unless the Father draws him and will raise him up at the LAST DAY." He says it a 4th time as well in chapter 54
mvmof2 2 months ago
Very good video which shows that the pre-tribbers are so so wrong.... No "escaping" the fact that the Word of the LORD always has the last say, :)
kobi4u 3 months ago
By watching this video, Christ's second coming will be unexpected not secret.
MrChrls29 3 months ago
@eddienickels1 This is what was shown to me in the Bible. Is there any reason (scriptural passage) that would explain otherwise?
godlychick 5 months ago
I agree that believers who are watching will know just like the Magi knew when the Child Jesus was born. The prophetess Anna was also watching and waiting in the temple.
However, aren't the Lord's return and the Rapture 2 separate events?
godlychick 5 months ago
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2thess 2:3
christopher4everon 6 months ago
Great work. Keep it up!
PostTribWarning 8 months ago
@eddienickels1
I can imagine. I was pre-trib for the longest time.
Myhopeisinhim 8 months ago
@eddienickels1
It's interesting that pre-tribbers teach that it is imminent and say that the rapture has been imminent since the setting up of the church. Christ predicted the type of death peter would die, yet if the rapture was imminent why would he have even commented on Peter's death. It was because he knew Peter would die before his return, showing that it really wasn't imminent.
Myhopeisinhim 8 months ago
the rapture and the 2nd coming are different. The 2nd coming is after the trib, and the rapture is either before it or its mid trib.
Kr0n1k4Lyfe 9 months ago
@eddienickels1 btw,i just got into a discussion with some other pretribbie.it started out good,but when i watched one of his movies that he sent me,he started preaching a false gospel.saying that we should keep the feasts and sabbaths.when i posted a daozen scripts that go against his false teaching,he blocked me and removed the scripts.he has his own wierd lil church.i guess he didnt want his drones seeing my posts.ill send his movies to ya.u'll luv'em,i promise.tell him i said hello!hee hee!
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@eddienickels1 exactly,call me prewrathy,even post tribbie-just please dont mistake me for a pretribbie!hee hee!
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean yup!kjb all the way(as far as english goes)amen!!!
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean i think when it comes to scripture we need to be as acurate as possible on these things.Jesus is telling us to be looking for AC.also,thats another thing that clues us in on the timming of the rapture.if the trib starts at the midst of the 70th week of dan,why would we be raptured 31/2 yrs before it?and there's nothing in the bible saying that.the answer really lies in the sun/moon.thats a solid point.ive talked to many pretribs,and no one is able to deal with it.what do u say?
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean Even Luke .. the whole chapter tells you 1) it won't be imminent! (verse 7- 25.. the Signs Christ give before He comes, a promise, not a "well, it could be in the middle, or none of this stuff could happen). 2) There are 2 deaths mentioned : 1st -- believers will be killed (verse 16), but not "Perish" (verse 18), ...... hmm. Then who will perish and when? Unbelievers. When? Verse 26, at The Signs! What comes "as a thief" and A SNARE (a trap)? verse 34-35. The Day of the Lord.
KeyboardPacifist 9 months ago
@KeyboardPacifist So then....... what are you praying to escape ? Can't be simpler. The one and only thing you pray for when you first cry out to God. Repent and you will be Saved on the Last Day. You will not perish - but have everlasting life. The wicked get caught in the snare of the cares of this life - and though YOU will be killed, you will not perish - as they will. That is what you pray to escape. It's the only Salvation theme throughout the New Testament.
KeyboardPacifist 9 months ago
I think that some pretribbers will fall away... just as many did after WW1 and WW2. Hard times come and they thought that YHSWH would come on their timetable... instead of HIS. And then I think that some pre-tribbers will suffer and draw closer to the Messiah. This is the 'watchfulness' that Our Savior desires. It's a shedding of the old safety blanket and pet-dogma.. and a looking to Christ as a transformation of our minds. In this comfortable society.. so hard to find, just as Sodom
KeyboardPacifist 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean no,the fact that if CHRIST were to come today that we would be ready is NOT all that matters.obviously these other things matter heavily also being that we are told several times thru scripture to NOT be decieved concerning them.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean btw,u have a good attitude.i like being able to disagree and still get along.-very CHRIST like,thank you!
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean where are we told anywhere that the trib is 7 years?the abomination marks the midst of 7th week spoken of by daniel(dan9:27).Jesus says that THAT'S when there will be great tribulation in mat24:21-AFTER the midpoint which leaves only 3and 1/2 yrs for trib.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean notice that the script u just quoted,is AFTER CHRIST is seen in the clouds rapturing the church"whenYOU see these things"how can you see them if uve been raptured already by that point?u cant say the church is watching from heaven because it says Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.all this is AFTER CHRIST comes in clouds.the things that we escape is the mens heart failing(wrath of GOD)
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean just had a thought.even if these 24 elders do rep the church.why does that mean the rapture has occured at that point?they might be in heaven RIGHT NOW representing the church.in chronicles,the 24 levites who represented all the tribes entered into the house of the LORD.does that mean ALL of isreal came into the house of the LORD?no,they were being represented by the levites.and this could be true of how the church is rep in heaven at this very moment.doesnt mean we're raptured now
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean all these things u say to back up the 24 elders theory still isnt enough.let me ask u this,is elijah redeemed?is it possible that he and enoch and moses and those that rose shortly after CHRIST' ressurection have crowns and white raiment?in luke 19,it says that they appeared in glory on the mnt of transfiguration.im not banging the desk on this,im just saying that the bible doesnt come out and tell us its the church.and the sun/moon arent darkened till rev6,so the timming is wrong
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean again,i'm with u,i believe the rapture and return to set up mellinial kingdom are 2 diff events,so we dont need to debate that.but let me point out that u are using an alegory to show pretrib rapture.ur even calling it a "picture"of the rapture.but the bible gives us several examples of the literal event and pretribs have to explain them to be something else other than the rapture because NONE of them take place before the trib.btw,how many ressurections do u believe there are?
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean to descend doesnt nessesarily mean that HE must touch the ground.also the event in 1thes is refered to as DOL,and DOL is marked by the sun/moon darkening.we see this happen in mat24:29 and right afterward,we see the rapture,exactly as paul said.also,i dont believe the rapture occurs anywhere around rev19-ur confussing me with post trib-im pre wrath.which means that i believe the rapture occurs after the trib,but before the wrath.post tribs believe in the u-turn,i dont.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean .i didnt say rev was not chronological.i understand that we are kings and priest,but that does not mean that the 24 elders rep the church.like i said earlier,in order for the LORD to be seen in the clouds,he would have to descend from the 3rd heaven.also,i agree that the rapture and the return are 2 diff events.but 1thes is the rapture and so is mat24.1thes says we are caught up in the air to meet him and he appears in the air in mat24 also.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean i realise there's amillion and one passages of scripture that can be alegorized to create the illusion of a pretrib rapture.but if we go about interpreting the bible alegorically,and ignore clear passages,then we can make the bible say anything we want.for example,the 24 elders of rev4.every pretrib says thats the raptured church.but does the bible say that?NO!but the bible does clearly refer to the rapture as the DOL(TWICE!!)and joel and JESUS give us the timming CLEARLY.God bless
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean now going back to the DOL/DOC,if paul says that the DOC cant occur until the falling away and revelation of AC,then that destroys the immenency doctrine altogether.2 things must happen 1st.there's really no room for an honest arguement here.now the DOL occurs AFTER the sun/moon are darkened according to joel2:31 and the sun/moon darkening occurs AFTER the trib according to mat24&mark13,so if the rapture is included in the DOL like paul says,then the rapture is post trib.......
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
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@TheKJVberean so that's why it doesnt add up,as u say.taken out doesnt mean raptured.we have to be careful of the meanings that we assign to phrases.its easy to do if we're told by our teachers enough times that "taken out"means raptured.also,u quoted the script as sayin "we" must be taken out,but the script says"he".and of course i agree with u that this in NO way could be the Holy Spirit.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
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prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean why do i say that?because it wouldnt make sence chronologically with the rest of the chaptr.paul states that the gathering(rapture)cant take place until the falling away and the AC is revealed.so in order for the restrainer to be the church and the taking out be the rapture,paul would have been saying that the gathering(rapture)cant occur until the rapture occurs.just think about it for a second.if the rapture would have to occur for the AC to be revealed,thats wut paul wuldve said
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean now skydiver does an excellent vid describing his take on the restrainer,and he agrees that its the church.but it is not removed"taken out"the way most pretribs say.he believes that the falling away is the removal so the antichrist(AC)can be revealed.i think its a good theory,but i dont pound the desk on theories,although he uses an excellent exegisis of the context of the chptr to back it up.but one thing that i am ABSOLUTELY sure of is that the the removal is not by rapture...
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
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prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
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@TheKJVberean 1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.---
and--- 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.....
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean ok,im gonna try to address everything as best i can,so please be patient with me and read my answer carefully,as i have read ur statements several times to make sure i'm understanding u.yes indeed,bro,i understand that the 1000 yr reign is the day of the LORD(DOL).but the DOL begins with the rapture and the rapture is included in the DOL.read 1thes4:16-5:2.paul clearly refers to the rapture as the DOL.and again he refers to the gathering(rapture) as the day of CHRIST in 2thes2....
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean yes,brother,ive read 2thes2 very carefully many times.so many that when i accidently drop my bible,it opens to 2thes chpt2-hee hee.look,if ya have a specific point that u are trying to get across in 2thes,please just come out and say it,because to me,2thes has post trib written all thru it.but we can talk for months about it if ya want.i just like having peacful intelligent conversations about the word and figured u did to.fyi,i dont seperate fellowship with pre tribs.we're bros!
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean the funny thing is that eddienickels and i agree on the rapture occuring after trib,but you and i agree that the church is removed and brought to heaven while the wrath of God is being poured.but i bet u and i do not agree that the seals(tribulation) are not the wrath of GOD.that's ok,we can still be friends.but i say the trib is not the wrath,but what ensues afterwards is.(trumpet and vile judgements) during seals,antichrist is claiming to be God,but that ends when wrath is poured
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
the phrase "looking after"means expecting or anticipating.they know that God's wrath is about to fall.where as before they were persecuting the church,they are now on the other end of the stick.the DAY OF THE LORD is about to begin.and it begins with Christ comming in the clouds to raptuer hi churc AFTER the trib.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean luke 21:34-36 tells those that "see these things come to pass"to pray.how can they see these things come to pass if they are raptured before the trib?Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.ur right,GOD is not putting the bride thru HIS judgement,but the trib is NOT his judgement.mens hearts fail when they see Christ because THAT'S when his judgement falls.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@TheKJVberean 1thes4 & mat24 are NOT 2 seperate events.u say in 1thes,CHRIST brings church to heaven,but mat24 is his 2nd comming.if u look at the parallel scripts of mat 24,u see that CHRIST gathers church FROM earth TO heaven:Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.1thes,yes he descends,but in order for him to be seen in the clouds,isnt a descension in order?
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
For any pre-tribulation believer I would like to ask some questions 1) Do you have to be dead to be resurrected ?2) When are dead in Christ raised ? 3) when do we appear before Jesus without sin ? 4) Would you please use three verses of the scriptures?
thetruthimpart 10 months ago
You tell those pesky Thessalonians! They sure did start to worry when all their loved ones started to die because Paul had told them the Return of Jesus was imminent. But hey, what did Paul know? You know way better than Paul. It's not imminent. Nope. Oh wait, yeah it is. Imminent then. Imminent now.
Rogueoftroy 11 months ago
@Rogueoftroy in what scripture does paul say the rapture is imminent?
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@prewrathrapture333 The letters to Thessalonica are the attempts of Paul to calm the Church down because they were freaking out when they started to die and it hadn't occurred yet. If Paul hadn't told them it was imminent, why were they freaking out? Yeah...sometimes you have to use a couple of neurons. Saying "give me a Scripture where Paul emphatically says that in present tense or I won't believe it," is just a dishonest way of pretending to care abt Scripture while ignoring context.
Rogueoftroy 9 months ago
@Rogueoftroy just like a pretribby,all i did was ask a question and im already getting insulted.im not wasting my time with a babe,i thought i could possibly engage u in an intelligent conversation,but i can see right off,that is going to be impossible.if u appologize for implying that i am stupid,i promise i will politely dismantle your arguement,but if u cant be friendly,just forget it.when u mature in the faith,give me a call.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@prewrathrapture333 Pretribby? That's about the lamest and most infantile jab I've ever heard. All you posttrib people do is condescend and feign outrage. And you seriously need some tougher skin. The Scripture is full of allusions to and pictures of the Rapture. You would dismantle my argument? Hardly. More like you would cite a whole bunch of verses out of context and then tell me I'm not a real Christian if I don't agree with your interpretation. Just like every posttribber always does.
Rogueoftroy 9 months ago
@Rogueoftroy i call post tribs post tribbys and even pre wrathys also.anyway,wutever,its not about having tough skin,trust me my skin is nice and tough.it's about being obeidient to CHRIST we're supposed to speak the truth in love,but u dont seem willing,so 4get it,like i said.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
@prewrathrapture333 It takes a special kind of ego to believe that you are doctrinally infallible. You're going to speak the truth to me in love? Well thank God that YOU, the great sage, have come to "fix" me. Lol.
Rogueoftroy 9 months ago
@Rogueoftroy im not tryin to fix ya,bro-peace out!
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
Can someone please tell me why Christians killed during the Tribulation Period are not Raptured (taken to Heaven)? Revelation 20:4-6 Thank you
JesusHoldMyHand1 11 months ago
@JesusHoldMyHand1 what scripture tells us that they werent raptured?in rev20:5,it tells us that they were part of the 1st ressurection.if the ressurection of the dead occurs before the rapture of the living(1thes4),then they died in the trib and were caught up in the air with the church AFTER the trib.rev20 actually proves the rapture to take place AFTER the tribulation by telling us that tribulation saint were part of the 1st ressurection.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
Also with regard to the vials.
Rev 16:15 KJV - Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 KJV - And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 KJV - And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
The Vials, trumpets, seals. all end at the same time.
gatorz27 11 months ago
@gatorz27 what in scripture tells us that the seals,trumpets and vials all end together?surely not rev16:15-17.it says nothing about them all ending at the same time.now i believe the 7th trumpet in rev11 contains the 1st vial which picks back up in rev15.in fact rev 15 refers to the vials as the 7 LAST plagues infuring that the vials come AFTER the trumpets.the 7th seal begins the 1st trumpet,so the seals are ended then and the 7th trumpet ends at the 1st seal,ending the trumpets.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
I like what Job said.
Job 14:12 KJV - So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 KJV - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 KJV - If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
see that? until thy wrath be past..
gatorz27 11 months ago
@gatorz27 but dont u see that job was mistaking the tribulation that was brought on him by satan(which God allowed)for the wrath of GOD?you have to put the statement in context.what was happening to job and who was actually inflicting the pain on him?pre tribs do the same thing.they mistake the seals which is the trib brought on by satan(which God allows and is sovreign over ie:the breaking of the seals)for the wrath of GOD.yet it is the trumpets and vials that are God's wrath.
prewrathrapture333 9 months ago
at 2.26 skydiver626 you used this verse to back up your post trib view Joel 2.31 ...and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come".
Are you suggesting this verse, which is sold here as a great and terrible day, the day we get caught up b with the lord? And thus we shall always be with the LORD? Why would it be terrible? I'm fairly certain that scripture used in this youtube clip indentifies different events. Not the event postulated to scripture and event.
robbiek77 1 year ago
@robbiek77 Did you read the whole book of Joel? Joel 3:15-16 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: BUT THE LORD WILL BE THE HOPE OF HIS PEOPLE, AND THE STRENGTH OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. You see, there are two parts to the day of the Lord affecting 2 different groups. Unbelievers: wrath Believers: salvation. Just like Noah's day.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@robbiek77 Pre-tribbists try to portray the day of the Lord as a strict wrath filled event.Absolutely false.First the believers are caught up, then wrath ensues ALL ON THE SAME DAY.There's no 7 year time gap. Noah was wisked away the same day the wicked were destroyed. Lot was saved the same day Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. There's more to the day of the Lord then just Wrath.There's salvation. Why do you think Jesus used these examples when he was describing what his return will be like?
skydiver626 1 year ago 3
It always seems that "tribulation" Greek "thilbos" and "wrath" Greek "orge" are confused by the pretrib believers. Also, "imminence" is another word that is misunderstood. If you are handcuffed to a railroad track and you see the train coming, you know not only that your death is "imminent" but you can also see and know when it will occur as it approaches. This approaching train of events of the end time signs is what we are to be watching for. Check out my Bible study: endtimeproof dot o r g
n2h2o2 1 year ago
@n2h2o2 i will admit, i do like your take on the whole watchman thing but that doesn't really do much to destroy the pre-trib rapture. The biggest hurdle for post-tribbers is how to reconcile Christ coming at a time of prosperity where their is eating, drinking and marriage - yet also come in the midst of Armageddon to rescue Israel (a time in which most if not all of the tribulation saints have been mardered and the world is in complete chaos because Gods judgements have been poured out).
trackguy2 1 year ago
@trackguy2 Thanks trackguy! I have done alot of research on this because I attended one church that was post trib and another church that was pre trib. I decided to dig in and find out the truth. I used to defend the pretrib stance but I don't any more because of the literal evidence. Not allegory or suppositions, just pure, litteral, verses. Please see my study: endtimeproof dot o r g
n2h2o2 1 year ago
@trackguy2 No doubt the unsaved will still be partying up to the wrath. If you follow the chain of events, you can see a clear distinction between the tribulation and the wrath. Armagedon is during the wrath. I really believe most of the differences between pre, mid and post trib is just a small difference in the timing of events. For example, pretrib has several problems with the Olivet discourse because Jesus talks plainly (literally) of the events in order from "birth pains" to rapture.
n2h2o2 1 year ago
No this is not true. If Jesus was coming like a thief in the night DURING the tribulation, he would not be coming like a thief in the night AT ALL.
Kr0n1k4Lyfe 1 year ago
@Kr0n1k4Lyfe Please read I Thess 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. This was Paul speaking to the CHURCH. The truth is that Jesus will NOT overtake his church like a thief. He will only overtake those who aren't watching like a thief - the unbelievers. By stating that Christ will overtake the church like a thief is to imply that the entire church is unsaved!
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 read the parable of the ten virgins, it has a sobering message: "While the bridegroom tarried, they ALL slumbered and slept." Mathew 25:5. This parable declares in no uncertain terms that even those who will be raptured and are true Christians will be overtaken unexpectedly. Imminency is constantly declared over and over again in scripture
trackguy2 1 year ago
@trackguy2 Yes, all the virgins fell asleap. But at midnight, a cry was heard that the bridegroom is coming. The WATCHMEN look for and see the Lord's return and sound the alarm. The watchmen were NOT sleeping and could forsee His coming by the signs. The virgins had time to trim their lamps and go out to meet Him. The watchmen are to constantly watch for the signs of His coming. If the watchmen had not awaken the virgins then All would miss the Lord and He would come as a thief in the night.
n2h2o2 1 year ago
@Kr0n1k4Lyfe Secondly, like every other pre-tribber I've ever dealt with, you are confusing the great trib with the time of God's wrath. They are two entirely unique events. God's wrath is sealed until after the great trib. Please study the 6th seal and Matt 24:29 parallel. The great trib is a time of Satan's wrath - not God's!
skydiver626 1 year ago
@Kr0n1k4Lyfe wow all this false doctrine... no wonder so many people are confused.
LauderdaleBaptist 1 year ago
Good video. Very true
jamesbabyar 1 year ago
Certainly Matt 3:12 the metaphore, describes the angles are With him, confirmed in chpt 13 and 24 also to describe the one event. No doubt the Psalmists described in Ps 50:1-3 68:1-3 at the appearence of Yeshua this planet is done! 2 Peter 3:10 shows it too. So besides this, Act 1:11 shows that it never was nor will be a secret. Again Matt 24 says as lightning, loudly too. Again Matt 24 says After the great ribulation will he appear so nobody goes anywhere untill then, period!
zobcity01 1 year ago
whoa and now you reject the imminence of Christ's return for His church!
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
@receivejesusnow Nope. I just reject that it's imminent right now. Even Christ stated that he didn't know the day or the hour, yet he still told his disciples that it wouldn't occur until sometime after the trib. Paul followed suit when he told the Thessalonians that the day of Christ wouldn't come until after the falling away and after the rise of the antichrist. Therefore, Christ's return will only become truly imminent once the falling away has come to the full and the antichrist rises
skydiver626 1 year ago 6
@eddienickels1 - So you're showing your ignorance of Zechariah's prophecy. It says " Behold a day is coming for the Lord..." Zech. 14:1 . "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in from to Jerusalem on the east; and Mt. Olives will be split into it middle from east to west by a very large valley..." -Zechariah 14:4 . This is the WORD of God and don't laugh at it. Your supporting verse rest only on Acts.3:21 and brings you to weaker ground in your support.
beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - Oh you just agreed that Marriage Supper of the Lamb was placed after the judgment of the whore 20 min. ago(Rev. 19:2) These scenes are in heaven, right? And right after the MARRIAGE(Rev. 19:7-9), HE COMES DOWN TO EARTH TO BRING JUDGMENT(REV. 19:11-21). Don't tell me that Rev. 19 verse 1-10 are not scenes in heaven and it cannot be on earth because Jesus was just preparing to go down on Rev. 19:11, don't tell me you don't understand this, it is the WORD of GOD & don't twist it.
beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - Once again you missed the right interpretation. In the rapture, Christ did not come back to earth before Acts 3:21, & did not touch the tip of His feet on the ground, but Christ was meeting the saints in the "AIR"(1Thes. 4:17) & returns back in heaven, thus He did not violate Acts 3:21. Christ will touch earth w/the tip of His feet on Mt. OLIVES at the actual second coming(Zech.14:4).
beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - But Christ cannot let His BRIDE(Church) stays in the Tribulation period because the church His DARLING will receive the BEATINGS and MAULING, and KICKING for seven(7) years. Is this the kind of LOVE the Bridegroom promised to HIS BELOVED BRIDE, THE CHURCH? My goodness, this is unimaginable to think about for a Bridegroom to let HER suffer to the core, for what? instead of protecting her w/ all the TENDER LOVING CARE! This kind of view is un-lovely and uncaring!!!
beverly6653 1 year ago
@beverly6653 sorry but I have to interject here. The bridegroom suffered & died for us. The bride has been beaten, mauled & kicked since the first church was established almost 2000 years ago. And is to this very day with those who worship Jesus (at risk of their lives) in non Christian countries. As well as missionaries who go there to spread the gospel. Not trying to pick on you beverly, but do you just ignore scripture that says it's a righteous thing to suffer for Jesus who suffered for us?
KapaMan00 1 year ago
@KapaMan00 : Yes, the church(Smyrna) suffered in the early days and will suffer and have tribulation for ten(10) days, Rev. 2:10. This was at the time when the church was under the rule of ten(10) Roman emperors. However Christ made a promise to the church of Philadelphia-who loves to share the gospel with brotherly love, that He will keep the church from the hour of testing which is about to come into the whole world, Rev. 3:10 . The Church already suffered & by no means,she will suffer again.
beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - And WHO did Jesus Married in heaven? who was the BRIDE? Is it not the CHURCH? Therefore the church must have been rapture before tribulation period and stays in heaven to be rewarded w/ awards but to be tested first by FIRE lest your crowns be lost. After the awarding & wedding ceremonies, He then goes down to earth together with His BRIDE to render final Judgment to the wicker people. The BRIDE must be w/Jesus because He said "For where I am, there you may be also." John 14:3
beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - You are right on Marriage Supper of the Lamb & after this He is to go down to earth(Rev.19:11), but in Rev. 19:14, the armies w/c are in heaven are following Him is the CHURCH. This is synonymous with 1Thes. 3:10 in w/c Jesus is coming together with ALL HIS SAINTS and this is the CHURCH w/c means that the church was already there in heaven(RAPTURE)before Christ comes down to earth to render His final JUDGMENT on the wicked people w/c is now the actual SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.
beverly6653 1 year ago
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beverly6653 1 year ago
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beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - You see, you don't know where to place Judgment Seat of Christ in timeline. Romans 14:9-12 is not the timeline, but the details of accountability of what we did for Jesus, in short it is a rewarding of awards(see 1Cor. 3:12-16; 2Cor.5:10. The true timeline is in Rev.22:12; 3:11, where He comes quickly & our rewards are with Him. The word "quickly" implies time to happen after the RAPTURE & can't be on the second coming 'coz this day is JUDGMENT DAY & RAPTURE is awarding time.
beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 I don't have to do anything but what the Bible clearly states. Do your homework and let me know why Dan wasn't one of them. I know u can do it.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
Everybody just believe what they want to believe. If u are satisfied in what u believe, then believe that. Why try to come down on somebody because they don't believe in what u believe? If post tribbers want to be here, then so be it. Don't try to make me here with u.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - You guys are just running around the bush, quoting so many references trying to avoid the subject I am asking for. My questions haven't been answered yet and if you know biblical prophecy you should know where to place two important great events going to happen to the church. Again questions are where do you place Judgment seat of Christ and Marriage supper of the Lamb in the prophetic timeline?
beverly6653 1 year ago
@beverly6653 The judgment seat of Christ is after the rapture of the church. It's only for those who are raptured. The Great white throne judgment is at the end of the 1000 year reign. The marriage supper is just before the Lord comes back to the earth to defend Israel. Revelation 19th chapter. It's held in heaven.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
The post-trib you are talking about is the Glorious Appearing of the Lamb, not the Rapture
receivejesusnow 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - And Oh yes, Acts 3:21 says that Christ remains in heaven until all be restored, and when He comes back to earth, He brings with Him the"raptured" church, the saints to execute judgment on the wicked people of the earth(Rev. 19:11-14; 1 Thes. 3:13). This is the actual second coming of Christ you speak, if then where do you place these events-The Judgment Seat of Christ and Marriage Supper of the Lamb? In what prophetic sequence of event you place them?
beverly6653 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 - Regardless of Greeks definition or English, it still contains the same meaning, to "Keep" out from the hour of testing(Rev. 3:10). If you do not like the word "catch up" then what is your interpretation of this verse? and where do you suggest that the church of Philadelphia will be kept from the time of tribulation period? In what place? My goodness, this is a big church, composed of all believers comprising the "Body of Christ" if not kept the church will die.
beverly6653 1 year ago
@beverly6653 All 7 Churches represent the body of Christ. The Philadelphia Church has an awesome role during the tribulation. Their door can't be shut. Not by Satan or the anitchrist. Those who say they're jews, aren't but who are liars come to worship at their feet. The Philadelphia Church will be a great place of refuge and repentance for those during the tribulation, where taking the mark of the beast isn't a temptation. A place with great protection from God. Amen Amen Amen!
KapaMan00 1 year ago
@KapaMan00 The church will not be here. Maybe your church will be. The church of Jesus Christ will not be here, but in heaven. Revelation 4,5th chapters.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@rossdaboss1959 Being that it's been almost 2000 years since John wrote Revelation, there is surely a large portion of the Church in heaven right now. And thankfully they didn't believe in a pre-trib rapture otherwise they would have ran in the face of tribulation or laying down their lives for Christ who gave his life on the cross for us. If the great tribulation is going to happen anytime soon we should as Jesus' followers be ready to serve him, even at the cost of our mortal bodies.
KapaMan00 1 year ago
cont... Sitting around waiting for a "for those who seek to save their life" secret rapture is just what Satan wants you to do brother.
KapaMan00 1 year ago
@KapaMan00 What u really don't understand is that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath on man kind for rejecting him. His wrath is not with the church who is obeying him. It's with Israel and the world. That's why u don't hear anything the church is doing during that time. 144,000 of tribe of israel is sealed. But it don't matter. Whatever u want to believe is on u. My mind is made up already.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@rossdaboss1959 Yea I hear those who teach that Rev ch 6 & on is all God's wrath, but it isn't. That's just clever deception. The book says when God's wrath is poured out. And the Church is mentioned through out. The oil & the wine. The two witnesses are called candlesticks/lampstands just as the 7 Churches are. And of course the bride makes herself ready just before the Lord comes in ch 19. Not ch 4&5 (otherwise it would say so). Perhaps you should study more before making up your mind.
KapaMan00 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 Yea unfortunately the doctrine leads to a kinda "we're better than anyone" mindset. The thing that pains me the most in my heart is the idea that the so termed "trib saints" are not part of the body of Christ (cause the body has been raptured to heaven?). Of course they are, it's the Church, but it takes a mindset of "we're gone, we're great, they're not, let them suffer". People can twist scripture but can't change it. The Bride makes herself ready just before Christ comes.
KapaMan00 1 year ago
I changed from believing in the Pre Trib Rapture Theory to the Post Trib return of Christ in 1972. Both old Testament and New make sense when you start looking at the Lord's return as ONE EVENT. I no longer have to do mental contortions to get the Scriptures to somehow conform to the Pre Trib theory.
Thanks for posting yr video.
jamesbabyar 1 year ago
But the Pre-trib claims the church of Philadelpia, which is the church of brotherly love(Rev. 3:7:12), the church that loves to share the gospel of Christ to others & sending missionaries. Jesus has no negative comment on this church but all praise, & because of this, Christ made a promise to this church, that He will keep this church from the hour of testing, or will keep them away from tribulation period(Rev. 3:10) by snatching them away known as "Rapture".
beverly6653 1 year ago
@beverly6653 Right, pre-tribbers claim the Philadelphia church as if the letters to the 7 churches is a multiple choice questionnaire that we can split up the body of Christ & just pick from, which it's not. Those 7 1st century churches represent the "whole" church (eventhough there were more). The 7 churches also represent the churches (all believers) today, who will be here until Christ's glorious appearing. As the Lord tells each church, "he that overcometh" receives their rewards.
KapaMan00 1 year ago
The video above is a typical post-trib believing church, the church of Sardis(Rev. 3:3). No offense but Sardis is a dead church, that's why Jesus has a comment on them, "if you will not wake up", the church will be left behind in the tribulation period because this church did not stand for its biblical and spiritual christian principles and let pagan principles spoils with their doctrinal truth and Jesus warns them of this things lest they suffer in tribulation period!!!
beverly6653 1 year ago
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beverly6653 1 year ago
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beverly6653 1 year ago
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beverly6653 1 year ago
If we have to interpret the posttrib's position, then it appears that Christ at the end of tribulation period will rapture the church who had already been badly beaten to the most & highest degree, meets them in the air, then go to heaven for a short while, then makes a U-Turn and comes back again to earth together with His saints the church to render judgment to the wicked. Question is where do we place the "Judgment Seat of Christ" and "Marriage Suffer of the Lamb" in the picture of event ?
beverly6653 1 year ago
In the post tribulation theory, the church is going to suffer in the great tribulation period and they viewed the rapture and second coming of Christ as one single event at the end. If this is the case then would Christ let His Bride(church)receives all the beatings and kicking and mauling? Is this the kind of LOVE the bridegroom (Christ) offer to His Bride(the church)? this is unimaginable to think about a lover subject his darling to such beatings with all painful agony!!!
beverly6653 1 year ago
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List of Bible verses that show the rapture can be only pre-trib & nothing more: 2 thes 2:1-17, Amos 5:18, Dan 7:21, Mat 16:18, Dan9:27,6, Rev 13:5-6, Rev 11:, Rev 9:11, Rev 17:8 Rev 20:3, Rev 11:3, Rev 12:7, 12:6, 12:13-14, Dan 9:24-25. Isa 26:20-21, 57:1, Mal 3:16-17, Pss 97:10, Luke 21:36, 1 Thes 1:10, 1Thes 5:9, Rom 5:8-9, 2Pet 2:9, 3:3-4, Rev 2:22, 3:10, 4:1, 8:13, 19:1, Eph 5. Pss 27:1-14, Jug 14:1-18, Gen 29:22-28, 1Jn 1:8-9, Rom 10:9-10, Mat 1-:32. These are but a few.
cannotfindavoice 1 year ago
excellent and true
preacherpete1 1 year ago
Stop teaching that there is a 1st coming of Christ, a 1 1/2 coming of Christ and a 2nd coming for Christ. Why is Rev 16:15 in between the 6th & 7th vial of God's wrath? Because the Second Coming, The Resurrection and The Rapture happen on the same day. Just before The Battle of Armageddon.
Hooverdarnit 1 year ago
@eddienickels1 The hour of temptation is the hour you decide to receive the Mark of the Beast or not. If there's a pre trib Rapture, why is verse Rev. 16:15 placed in between the descriptions of the 6th & 7th vials of God's wrath? The Rapture (as well as the resurrection of the dead in Christ) will happen just before the Battle of Armageddon.
Hooverdarnit 1 year ago
you make some intresting points, thanks for the video brother. we should all trust in Christ abosolutely knowing that He will do what is fair and just with us as He loves us absolutely. I still hold to the pre trubulation rapture for a number of reasons though, in 1 thessal 5:18 Paul tells the Church to comfort one another with these words, how is it comforting to tell the church it will experience the great tribulation? also isnt matt 25 discussing the destruction of jerusalem? Thanks
e7c7o7 1 year ago
@e7c7o7 The great tribulation is not a comforting thought for any believer, however Paul does provide comfort to the church by stating, that when it's all said and done, the church will prevail and be resurrected on the last day. That's the comfort he wants us to take hold on. Matt 25 speaks of Christ's separation of the nations when he comes to physically sit on his throne in Jerusalem.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 The church is not Israel. When u understand the two, u will see that the church has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation. Everything God does is for a purpose. What is the church purpose in the tribulation? Israel's purpose is to spread the word of God which they never did like they were suppose to. That's why 144,000 are being sealed in the tribulation. The church is in heaven. Revelation 5:9-10. These people already have their crowns, and were redeemed from the earth.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@e7c7o7<< John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you...
John 16:1 "I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away.
LivingFaith2 1 year ago
John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
LivingFaith2 1 year ago
@LivingFaith2 This was not the great tribulation Jesus was talking about. He was talking to his disciples at that time and there was no church. And yes the disciples were persecuted. Stop taking everything to mean the church. That's how people get false doctrines. What Jesus said to his disciples, was to his disciples. What he says to the church is to the church. Understand the book of Daniel first. if u mislead people u are going to pay for it on Judgment day. u better think about it.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@e7c7o7 Keep the faith! Don't let nobody take your crown. most people can't understand a pre trib rapture, because they refuse to study prophecy and common sense. So many scriptures states we will not go through. Understanding the different between the church and Israel will help people to understand too, but they think the church has taken the place of Israel, when the church and Israel is on the earth right now. How can that be? LOL
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@aTrueHybrid No, u can not add stuff in the bible, He will seal us, several places in revelaton indicate that christians are here during the tribulation, what makes some better than the other to be left??
cjbrake 1 year ago
Thank you for cutting through so much of the nonsense being preached about the Book of Revelation today. -- From a Catholic Christian
jamesjeffreypaul 1 year ago
1 Thess. 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are DEAD or ALIVE when he returns, we can live with him forever." the WRATH Paul is talking about is for the sinners, the unbelievers etc... not for the Christian who abides in the light and has God's Seal on Him.
apollos6640 1 year ago
@imusho, read the Paul's FULL sentence, 1 Thess. 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a THIEF IN THE NIGHT. 3 While people are saying, There is peace and security, then sudden destruction will come upon THEM as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and THEY will not escape. 4 BUT YOU are NOT in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief....
apollos6640 1 year ago
You make good points but why would anyone be saying peace and safety in the last half of the tribulation when Gods wrath is poured out?
lmusho 1 year ago
@lmusho There is a major misconception that the Great trib is designated for God's wrath. Not true. God's wrath is SEALED until the 6th seal. Fortunately, the 6th seal lists celestial events there also that Christ states in Matt 24:29 will not occur until after the GT. That's the true timing of God's wrath. Secondly, those claiming peace will be under full subjection to the antichrist. They will be able to buy or sell.
skydiver626 1 year ago
@skydiver626 Won't the battle of Armageddon be about to take place and everybody will be being tortured by boils and plagues and crazy demon locusts and be begging to die? Who would be saying peace and safety?
Plus, Luke 17:26, 27, etc. says they will be living life as usual right up until the Son of man is revealed. And, since one will be taken and the other left, all those "living peacefully" can't be "marked by the beast."...I'm perplexed.
whatisreal4real 1 year ago
@whatisreal4real u are so right. Don't let nobody take your crown. If people want to go through God's wrath, then that's their choice. All i know is when Jesus died on the cross, he said it was finished. Nothing else has to be done. The way back to the father was set. People that believe that we have to go through God's wrath to be saved, are saying that what Jesus did wasn't enough. How about people that die before the tribulation? They go to hell because they didn't go through the tribulation
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@skydiver626 i can tell u don't know about the book of Daniel. Only 69 weeks were fulfilled upon israel, and there is one more week or 7 years to be fulfilled. It's called Jacob's trouble, not the church trouble. God will give Israel their last week before bringing in an end of sin, and the prophecies being fulfilled, etc. U have to read and have understanding of the whole matter, not just piece a verse and run with it. U will misled people and it's on u when u stand before God on Judgment
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
@lmusho U are so wise. I told people the same thing. It's just good old common sense to see a pre trib rapture. Can't God do whatever he wants? Nobody will be thinking about marrying and partying at the second coming. They will be telling the rocks to fall on them, and hide them from the Lord. Revelation 5:9-10 shows the church in heaven. We are redeemed from the earth. 4:9-11, we have our crowns already. The 24 elders represents the church.
rossdaboss1959 1 year ago
We're caught up at the "Last Trumpet" (1 Cor. 15:51-55)... "and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be "caught up" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:13-17). How then can the "LAST TRUMPET" sound, THEN the Ressurection of the dead in Christ, and the Rapture happen 7 years BEFORE the "Last Day"?
apollos6640 1 year ago
amazing video once again
sanctifiedbytruth 1 year ago
this is so clear, yet even cristians in my bible study dont get this they even get upset! bless you
matsebah 2 years ago
Good presentation. It's simple and clear. The one thing that most pre-tribulationists hang their hats on regards who will populate the millennium. But, I think that's answered in Zechariah chapters 12, 13 & 14, where it's made clear that there will be non-raptured survivors of the tribulation that will go into the millennium.
loveworthfinding 2 years ago
Even Job knew the day of the lord..
Notice hes change comes AFTER WRATH
Job 14:12-14
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Nice work skydiver :)
gatorz27 2 years ago
It is awesome this truth is getting out, the devil is losing a stronghold of deception Thank You Skydiver for boosting my morale in Christ, struggling soul winner
truprayaz 2 years ago
The belief of the pre trib. rapture theory is a salvation issue. Those who believe this theory believe they will have a 2nd chance to be taken up. What if they were wrong. This theory could prevent the salvation of souls. Satan likes to appeal to our carnal minds and wishful thinking.
potooth 2 years ago
I'm post~trib, but the Lord will save all of His sheep and you cannot lose eternal life, if you really have it. :-)
THOUARTAMAZINGGOD 1 year ago
can somebody explain to me the evidences of both sides. i used to believe a pre trib rapture.. based on the timeline on Matthe 24.
mydearjulietetf04 2 years ago
if you want to know more why the pre-tribulation Rapture if a false doctrine. All, you need to do is look into the Bible for guidance.
bigbadboriqua 2 years ago
watch all of his videos they are also on tribulation, they are very sound, I already believe post trib although my early years as a Christian I just believed what I was taught and did not not check well enough for myself on this issue, although it does not help much for people when it is backed by top novels ny best sellers, Lord I pray Holy Spirit Teach us Jesus Name
truprayaz 2 years ago
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splang 2 years ago
And another thing. Its Cleary said that JOHN WAS RAPTURED B4 ALL THIS HAPPENED. (oh but mikelmillion, it was just a vision) Well if it was jus a vision God coulda just let him saw wat was gonna happen while he was on Earth instead of taking him to heaven. Why would Jesus leave his Bride to die? Only ppl that will be here is UNBELIVERS which is NOT THE BRIDE OF CHRIST. they only BECOME believers AFTER they have seen the Bible fulfilling its self THANK U GOOD NIGHT
mikelmillion 2 years ago
mikelmilion, wasn't John in prison when he wrote Revelation? And had he been raptured out of prison and into heaven, wouldn't we be without the book of Revelation since...he wasn't there to write down the vision?
bluliite 2 years ago
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mikelmillion 2 years ago
HUH!?!? Are u serious? lol...Ok...why couldnt he write these things AFTER the vision? Was there a problem?? After all it was a VISION so it was not like he left Earth, it was a VISIONNNN
mikelmillion 2 years ago
Okay, confused. Oh, I thought you were saying he was raptured away.