Renata Tebaldi & Mario del Monaco "Vicino a te" Chenier

[hobo1975]

myteacher sang withpavarotti/di stefano as well as sutherland/others,hesaid di-stefano was the greatest tenor heheard.i prefer to listen to pavarotti,however,pavarotti was notin the class of some of the previous greats like,bjorling,caruso,gigli,per­tile etc.pavarotti has clear faults that bother my ears at time,he either closes his sound too much then other times opens the sound too much,his vowels at times are really unattractive,he doesnt sing with vocal abandonment more of a controlled focus.

[TheWisemonkey8]

Goodness me... this is opera...

[VinylToVideo]

4 Bocelli and Brightman fans somehow ended up here.

[ThePavafan]

Did you know that at the music academy he started as a basso?

[ThePavafan]

wooow that is usually a problem when the singer hasn't got enough education. This problem is made by not practicing solfegio enough.

[ThePavafan]

And Pavarotti because of that perfect technique had much better projection than MDM and Corelli. Pavarotti was as much as loud as Tucker who wasn't so much loud because of his technique but because of the size of the voice, MUCH BIGGER than Luciano.

[sugarbist]

@ThePavafan I'm not quite understanding your comment.My understanding is that some voices like Volpi&Fillipeschi were able to reach the furthest parts of the theatre because of the travelling capability of the voice,along with the resonance of the voice,which enabled the sound to resonate a stronger sound.Especially in volpi's case, where by the voice travelled more than anyone's in history.Gigli had a rounder fuller voice than Tagliavini.But, FT's voice travelled further than Gigli'sEnjoy

[ThePavafan]

@sugarbist I am saying that Pavarotti beside his medium in size voice, had the best technique which made him one of the loudest voices ever. The loudest voice ever was Carl Haus. After him are Pavarotti and Tucker. Pavarotti was able to reach the furthest parts of the theatre because of the amazing travelling capability of the voice which was like a laser beam,along with the resonance of the voice,which as you said enabled the sound to resonate a stronger sound.

[sugarbist]

@ThePavafan I better understand what you are saying.I'm not ashame to say that I never heard of Carl Haus. I'M not really in agrreement with your evaluation of Pavarotti&Tucker. I unfortunately never saw Tucker LIVE, but I heard & readon YT that his voice was formidable. I saw Pavarotti live,I thought his voice had squillo, but I never came away with what your describing,respectfully. Corelli mentions that Volpi was the voice in history that perhaps travelled the furthest. continued.

[ThePavafan]

I have heard Pavarotti, Corelli and MDM live in an opera house. Pavarotti's voice was a lot smaller than the voice of these two. Corelli had a voice twice as big as Luciano's and MDM had a voice three times bigger than Pavarotti's, but believe it or not, Pavarotti was actually louder than them. I have compared them a lot. Even in duets with a soprano or baritone of the same caliber. Pavarotti had the most perfect technique which was better than MDM's and Corelli's technique.

[sugarbist]

@ThePavafan My father saw Volpi& many other singers in the 30s&40s and always said that Volpi's voice , (correva),RAN, more than any other tenor voice.Fillipeschi, Martinelli Zenatello, DeMuro Merli were right up there as well.Volpi sang everything in pitch, specifically William Tell Puritani& Hugonotti.For me the most phenominal voices are Caruso,Volpi Del Monaco Zenatello Corelli Fillipeschi Martinelli & maybe even Gino Penno

[ThePavafan]

@sugarbist According to me the most incredible voice ever is Luciano Pavarotti. His diction, power, legato, dynamics, precision, beauty of his voice, richness of his voice are incomparable.

[sugarbist]

@ThePavafan I'm in appreciation of your admireability of Pavarotti&do not deny the adjectives you provided above to describe his voice.I recently came across a ParigiOCara from Traviata with LP that I thought was incredibly beautiful.I'm not denying Pavarotti's greatness as a singer,But for I prefer different tenors in specific roles.In Chenier&Turandot,I like Corelli,In Aida&Pagliacci, Del Monaco.InTraviata,Elisir,Daugh­ter of the Regiment,Rigoletto,Boheme&Luci­a I most certainly enjoy Pavarotti

[ThePavafan]

@sugarbist Yes but Pavarotti could easily sing the dramatic roles too. I prefer him in every role cause he is so perfect.

[ThePavafan]

I also like the voices of Chris Merritt, William Matteuzzi, Richard Tucker and Francesco Tamagno.

[sugarbist]

@ThePavafan I thought Merrit was ok. He had trouble holding the vocal line together.Matteuzzi was a fine lyric tenor,I like the historic Tamagno.Tucker is the voice I'm puzzled with & have had some dialogue with his fans on You Tube, mostly exchanging information with GayTenor.Undeniably,I enjoy Tucker in some recordings like early Butterfly duet, Cielo E Mar,O Paradiso,Forza,Etc.RT had great high notes.His italian is fine but it must be the accent that he applies that I find irritating.

[ThePavafan]

@sugarbist I can't understand your comment about Chris Merritt. Can you explain please because I want to know about his problem.

[sugarbist]

@ThePavafan It seems that Merrit's voice does not hold a steady phrase.His voice seems to flutter below&above the pitch in a given phrase,You can also hear his voice shaking,which results in an inconsistency with his middle voice.Fortunately he doesn't have any problems hitting high notes. He seems to have the problem that older tenors develope as a result of aging or simply years of singing. Carreras also had a similar problem,whereby his voice started wobbleing when singing heavier roles

[ThePavafan]

MDM's voice was bigger than Corelli's but it doesn't mean that it was louder. The loudness depends a lot on the technique. So even having a smaller voice Corelli was louder.

[MrTanguerodeley]

Después de esto, cerrá todo y nos vamos!!!

[AndreaChenier1977]

il miglior duetto di andrea chenier

[gerry4339]

some good comments but i am afraid bergonzi was never in the same league as corelli . del monaco was good but seemed to be straining on some notes were as corelli blew them all away. the greatest tenor who ever lived bravo franco

[VivaRenata]

And I will say it once more and keep saying it until all of you, who are either too young, or too superficially educated stop discussing these tiny and irrelevant points. B flat, B natural, high C, transposition - who cares? The musical culture of the 19th century was that of allowing transpositions and alternative cadenzas (not only in opera). What you have in this clip is nothing but MAGIC - and noone will ever hear its equal "live" in our times. So shut up, learn something and appreciate.

[topmeat69]

one word  THIRLLING !!

[bodiloto]

+10 !!!!!! IMMORTALI  !!!!!!!

[Manondesgrieux]

DESPUÉS DE ESCUCHAR ESTO, UNO YA SE PUEDE MORIR SATISFECHO. BRAVI PER SEMPRE!!!!!!

[jamesjmertins]

Milanov with Bergonzi from the Met really do something with this and in the original key. It's strange but this role is the only one I find that I like Milanov really wonderful even as late as 1960 Bergonzi was always a Chenier that was beautiful and exciting . Del Monaco way of singing was diifferent and as such we have to except it for what it was. Tebaldi was nearly always good in this role. There has recently been released a Met Chenier1970 Bergonzi/Tebaldi/Milnes in great sound.

[CandyHaleLinton]

tenorismo, your remark is coarse, disgusting and false

[tenorismo]

Corelli and Del Monaco were both great Cheniers in their own rite. Domingo can't carry their dirty underware. Both of their recording are lovely.

[cek1111]

I love this brilliant last Bb than other dozens of high Cs.

[topmeat69]

In chenier the last 2 high notes are B naturals, this duet has to be one of the most beautiful duets in all of music,Giordano was in his 20s when he wrot it, in the 1890s, he died in the 1950s.The knowledge of training singers like these 2 is gone from the world, all knowledge will be lost and revised, lost and revised,sadly we wont hear live singing like this in our life time.

[Dicembre1234]

That's Bb. They downed it.

[topmeat69]

you are right it is a B flat, my favorite opera, Delmonac and Corelli were both "self taught" they both said in interviews, they were both smart enough to avoid most of the teachers, the voice teachers are why we dont have voices singing like this today , thanks to academia

[dahomey12]

Cero interpretacion, 1000 veces mejor Corelli

incluyendo la voz....

[lolitahatesyou]

At least del Monaco knew which opera he was singing!!! Del Monaco < Corelli x 100 !!!

[wishnatzki]

i suppose those of us who are not critics but opera lovers as my self would find criticisms of this opera. i saw my first opera when i was 9. and to this day i love this opera i don't care who sings

[beggiandrea]

Senza parole. Semplicemente meravigliosi!

[pearlmuth3]

Boy he really is just great for this role, great singing from both

[OrpheuCe]

Mavarilhoso!!! engraçado ele tropeçando no soldado!!!hehe

[listeningtoit]

Well. It´s a miracle that Del Monaco was able to make that sound with such a mouth posture and even body posture. He appears with open arms, slightly bent backwards and with the jaw position absolutely forward and tense. The top notes are not his territory any longer. Tebaldi is in good form. Anyway it´s a treasure of opera memorabilia...

[VivaRenata]

If only you who "know it all" could stop complaining about Del Monaco's posture and jaw - has there been any tenor in the Italian repertoire who has even come close in the past 50 years? And by the way, I would have been so grateful to have heard a fine (live) performance of Otello, just once in my lifetime! Lucky to have those old LP's.

[iriisblue]

Oh, sure. Corelli and Bergonzi. Del Monaco had undeniable power, but not more than Corelli, who, until later, had phrasing ability that Del Monaco never had. Bergonzi was the finest musician of the three. Ever heard his Celeste Aida? Impeccable. But all of us would have been lucky to have heard any of them in their prime.

[crwv]

Thats simply not true; anyone who sung on stage with both of them will tell you that.

[sugarbist]

@iriisblue DelMonaco's voice was larger than Corelli's and MDM'S phrasing was impeccable.Perhaps Bergonzi was the finest musician of the 3,Bergonzi did sing a beautiful Celeste Aida but he could not compete with Corelli and DelMonaco in the rest of the opera.Bergonzi was a lyric spinto, Corelli was a spinto tenor with some dramatic impact and DelMonaco was a dramatic tenor who was amazing( LIVE).Bergonzi sang beautifully, but did not have a lot of power.His voice was larger on records than LIVE

[foratti]

@sugarbist Don't know if Del Monaco voice is larger than Corelli's. Here in this '61 Chenier Tebaldi overpowers Del Monaco in all the big notes they sang together and in the '57 studio version again Tebaldi overpowers Del Monaco very much

[sugarbist]

@foratti You can look upCorelli Zucker interview withJerome Hines.Where Hines interjects in the conversation& states that.(Im Paraphrasing)The1st time he heard DelMonaco inAida rehearsal, It was the most GIGANTIC sound he ever heard.He asked Corelli if he agreed&FC SAID (I AGREE, I AGREE).I really don't agree that Tebaldi over powers MDM here.Also try listening to both Corelli&DelMonaco in Forza on YT. They are 2 of my favorite tenors.But MDM'S VOICE IS A LITTLE BIGGER.They were both great.Enjoy

[foratti]

@sugarbist Oh please notice on minute 4:21/ 4:23 minute, Tebaldi overpowers him easily, then on 5:53 / 5:55 minute you see how Del Monaco opens his mouth but you listen only Tebaldi and at the end in the last "insiem" on minute 6:13 to 6:17 minute she breaks him into ashes again. It's true that perhaps Tebaldi was the only one who could do that. I have a Del Monaco interview where Del Monaco himself tells during his complete career there we

[sugarbist]

@foratti AT 5.53&5.55 it does seem that she is a little louder than he.However his voice in the theater carried wider& her voice is more ACUTA.Even though this is a tape of a LIVE performance& a pretty good 2nd choice to being LIVE, it still isn't live & the audio is a little DISTORTED. I think the best example of what DelMonaco sounded like LIVE is the Forza arias here on YT with Tebaldi in 1953.

[ThePavafan]

@sugarbist In fact live in the opera house he was a little louder than her. But never mind loudness isn't the most important quality.

[sugarbist]

@ThePavafan I agree wholeheartedly.However the statements here are about size of voice.DelMonaco also had impeccable diction phrasing& his recitatives were excellent.MDM's sound was clean& the voice was basically even from top to bottom with a fine quality.He never fudged the music and was a tremendous audience pleaser.Perhaps on the critical side, he did exagerate the volume output of his voice&although he did do some piano singing&mezza voce, he was criticized for not doing enough.enjoy

[ThePavafan]

@sugarbist You are right.

[ThePavafan]

@foratti The soprano voice is more appealing than the tenor voice to the camera. Live it is different. Live the both voices depend on their actual strength. So if the soprano is stronger on the video that means that they were equal live. Tebaldi was a little louder on minute 4:21/ 4:23 and 5:53 / 5:55 but it means that live they were equal or one of them was SLIGHTLY stronger for one or two decibels. But on the last high note on the last insiem he was a lot louder on the camera,

[ThePavafan]

which means that on the last high note, on the last insiem, live he drowned her totally. Because if he overpowers her totally on the last note on the camera where her voice is far more appealing, live where her voice is as appealing as his, she couldn't be heard because of him. She was totally drowned by his gigantic voice. Live on the last insiem where they sing together the high note all you can hear is Mario Del Monaco's voice.

[foratti]

@sugarbist It's true that perhaps Tebaldi was the only one who could do that. I have a Del Monaco interview where Del Monaco himself tells during his complete career there we TWO voices he could not match with : Ebe Stignani and Renata Tebaldi, apart from these two, there were no voice who could match with his voice, told by Del Monaco.

It is interesting to point that on "live" Del Monaco always transposed half a tone the Chenier final duet.(In his studio version is sung in the right key)

[sugarbist]

@foratti As this is probably one of the most difficult & GRUELING duets in opera.It's possible that he transposed it to be more in a comfort zone for his very heavy Dramatic voice. Domingo would transpose everything including (HAPPY BIRTHDAY)

[sugarbist]

@foratti I didn't know about the Stignani&Tebaldi comment in the MDM interview. Pretty interesting.I did see Corelli Live in Trovatore at the Met in the early 60's and i thought he was great.Also saw Del Monaco in concert in early, maybe 1961 He was also great.I love both tenors depending on the roles they sing.I prefer Corelli over MDM in Chenier,Tosca&Trovatore. But only marginally.I prefer MDM in Pagliacci,Carmen&Aida marginally over Corelli. I also think Lauri Volpi was the best Manrico EVER

[foratti]

@sugarbist Yesssss Mario Del Monaco on fire Pagliacci !!! is totally superior to bland Corelli's Pagliacci and yes I like much more Del Monaco Radames than Corelli's

[sugarbist]

@foratti I would like to hear Corelli sing the Celeste Aida & DelMonaco do the rest of the opera.The Aida fromMexico city with DelMonaco&Callas is the best I have ever heard.It must have been the high altitude. but they are both Phenominal .Enjoy

[foratti]

@sugarbist : Corelli never transposed Chenier final duet on "live" , neither Tucker.

Of course Domingo transposed it too

[sugarbist]

@foratti Of course the assumption is that the duet is transposed because of DelMonaco.However Tebaldi, although having a gorgeous quality of voice, did have trouble supporting her higher register in her career.

[foratti]

@sugarbist : Tebaldi and Del Monaco both have gigantic voices, you no need to convice me about nothing of Mario, only I say he transposes Chenier final duet on "live" , in the 1954 Met Chenier he also transposes it down, BUT in the '57 studio version the duet is sang in the right key.

Tebaldi in the '50s never had troubles with the series of Bs natural in Chenier final duet, she had some troubles in her '66 perf with Corelli

[sugarbist]

@foratti DelMonaco also transposed Di Quella Pira& Che Gelida Manina. I know those are acceptable but I'm really not sure about Chenier final duet.I never remember him having a reputation for transposing .Corelli would also transpose Che Gelida Manina& Di Quella Pira at times, But was more consistant in singing in key because of his higher facilty.

[foratti]

@sugarbist Yes, Chenier final duet is currently transposed half a tone by most tenors, don't know why because it should be sung as it was written.

Che gelida manina is sung in the original key by very few tenors

[sugarbist]

@foratti I'M guessing it's transposed because of the difficult tessitura&the way the B-NATURALS are written.(insiem)has a tendency to make the hi-note go back,but i'm really not sure

[cmorgan22]

Oh, if we could only hear singing like this today!

[clymnestre]

Due legendarie voci cantando insieme.... Magnifico!

[OperaGhost1990]

I love this duet!!!

It shows how you do whatever for love.

[michaud1]

Great singing from both of them. Tebaldi as usual is fabulous.

[baritolo]

Il più grande Chenier e la più grande Maddalena nella recita che commosse il Giappone.