Women should not lead worship. It is not a debate the bible in all of it's different languages and translations mean the same thing? Somebody wrote "well what about all the millions that women pastors have saved?" My question is how do you know that? If you cant follow instructions out of a book you preach about then what does it say about you?
You use a song that repeats over and over "I will believe the voice of truth" and yet you do not quote any scripture whatsoever. No one ever said women couldn't be martyrs or saints. However, the scripture, the actual voice of truth, does have something to say about women leading the actual worship service... Working outside that is a different story...
I think the debate is, what demographic of people is severely malnourished of the holy spirit near us? If we sit around and complain that one person said we need more dudes in worship...what good does that do to winning people for Christ? If we actually get out and reach the demographic that God has chosen for us to bless, we will actually change lives! If we spend our time even debating more spiritual issues with non-Christians that would be better than debating something as foolish as this.
If we're talking about what Mark Driscoll has to say, let's examine previous statements. Driscoll and his wife say that men are good at working and bad at caring for children, and vice versa for women. These are *absolutely ridiculous statements* from any perspective: Biblical, evolutionary, psychological, or cultural.
He also myopically focuses on making money as the only way men can and do provide for their families. It's insulting, backward thinking that is not helpful for the modern church.
. What about all those millions of souls that were saved from Hell over the past 2000 years by the preaching of the Gospel out of a woman's mouth? It is like asking if a woman should be allowed to save a person from a burning building. We are all commanded to to the work of the Lord and rescue souls from Hell. You saying God approves of letting a soul go to Hell rather than hear the Gospel from a woman? forbidding women to preach is a doctrine of the devil.
I have a strong feeling as a woman, that many of the quotes that were used in this video were taken out of proportion. The bible is the ultimate source of knowledge as its God-breathed. The word of God comes first before the words of man. The bible does not look down on women, in fact if anything the bible advocates equality, the bible however also points out key differences. Many of the missionaries that were featured in this were god fearing women, the bible doesn't look down on them.
Thank the gods we see women just as loving and just as honorable as men. The abrahamic religions got a lot of nerve at times. Thank the gods and the ancestors we see past them.
Wow, I almost don't know what to say. Woman r a Powerful part of the church, sometimes more then Men. We both need to work together to make it happen, anything else shows how easily the devil gets his hands in everything. This is not right.
Yep Driscoll is right..unfortunately this video doesnt really engage in what he has to say. Driscoll`s in line with Pauls teaching ( who from scripture we know loved women believers and had many women friends in the various churches at that time ) is more about male only headship of the congregation. That women have done great and amazing things for Jesus he would applaud I think !!
women in the church are represented by the dead. Wake up, the church will never recognize the plight of women. There is no interest no payoff. We need strong women in the socio-political area's of the community as leaders with new fresh ideas. We need strong women leaders, down with the church, up with humanity!
This is one of the most sickest, perverted, twisted, attack on the believers Helmet of Salvation and Armor of GOD. Wow. Washerucess, Calvinist, TULIPS and the like never know if they are ever saved even when they may think they are one of the elected they are still not sure so they "perservere" still not knowing if they are. I have a video that exposes this religous spirit and false doctrine for what it is. All those justified by faith in believing Jesus Christ KEEP UR ARMOR ON PLEASE!
1 Timothy 2:11-12 (New International Version) 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
Women LISTEN! There's NOTHING in Scripture that says you can't serve God! He calls you to! But He FORBIDS you to TEACH or to be in AUTHORITY! Let no man deceive you, anyone who commits sin is of the devil!
If you DISOBEY The COMMANDMENT Of GOD, it will not matter how big your "ministry" was, or how well you taught. You will NOT inherit God's Kingdom!
"Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven!"
Woman = wife, man = husband. "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own HUSBANDS at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
@TFarache: Let me add as a woman. I support man-leadership although I can lead as a woman. It's disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church, because it shows that man is not doing his job as a leader. Therefore, bravo man, go go go and lead others and teach women to submit. I'm with you! female-discipler
@jcobadja how does it show that the man is not doing his job as a leader? A males genitals don't make him more inclined to lead honey. And women should never submit to men, maybe pathetic ones like you, because men have nothing over them, therefore there is nothing to submit to.
Alot of religous spirits in the hizzzouse! I am A CHILD/woman OF GOD and I preach the Gospel and MANY have been saved, healed, delivered, set free, born again, headed for heaven and denying hell!!!!! Hallelujah! Praise be to Jesus Christ the only Son of GOD!
God would not suppress a people group. God does not oppress or hold or keep anyone down. Yet the church does this with women. It consistently takes away their opportunity to have a leadership role or to teach from the word. Women can preach just fine and read just fine and reason and explain just fine. I see nothing in life that would determine that a woman would not be able to lead effectively so why would God do this? It does not seem just and God is most just. Look at scripture again.
@booksfellover If you do not repent from this heresy, you will not inherit God's Kingdom! This is not an issue of who gets to be the "most important person" or have the "better role" it is a matter of OBEDIENCE to God, it is an issue of SALVATION! Wake up! It is a TERRIBLE thing to fall into the hands of the living God! Repent!
@SERVANTofYHVH You should check out "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards, the old Great Awakening preacher. I think he would be right up your alley.
Do women have value? Of course. Are they equal with men? Sure. But that doesn't change what the bible says about women in ministry roles. If your argument is that the bible is wrong, I understand, but then you call in question the rest of the bible without realizing it. Today "Christians" have a "Have my cake and eat it mentality." I have more respect for people who reject the bible, than try to re-invent it. I have utmost respect for people who actually take the bible seriously, like Mars Hill.
Seriously? Not a single bible verse in this argument? It isn't about emotion or what we feel must be right. It is about God and what He says is right. Can and does God use women for His glory? Absolutely! Thus the book of Esther. But that doesn't change what God has said in 1 Tim 2:9-15. Just because it isn't easy to hear or even if it doesn't "feel" right, it is still God's word and we must grow into that truth.
I may or not agree with the idea. But, you lack scripture and try to persuade people by tapping into their emotions instead of using logical reasoning.
To all those who are insisting that the bible says women shouldn't be pastors, I have this to say: the passage most commonly used against women preaching is referring to people (who happened to be women) interrupting the sermon during church.
To all those who say that there are no women preachers in the bible, I say Phoebe. She was a deacon (Romans 16:1). I have more examples, but don't recall them at the moment.
I believe that God can call whomever He chooses. That's not saying that women are above men or undoing the order that God has set. I realize that many women in out society are stying to set themselves above men and belittling them. But God has equiped all of us. Given us each gifts and talents. God is the same today as He was yesterday. That's what the bible says right? So if He can use a woman to lead Israel thousands of years ago, He can use one today.
If a woman cannot lead, then why, in the Old Testament of all places, did God place the woman Deborah over the entire nation of Israel? It wasn't God who said women shouldn't preach. It was Paul. If you study the history of Corinth, you learn that there were several cults in which women played a prominent role in worship, and that is why Paul said what he did, that and there society in general. Women were thought and treated like 2nd class citizens.
thnguyen24 - lol i was thinking the same thing. and ive pretty much watched the whole thing and dont recall any scripture, he/she is even using emotional(good) music in the background to try and prove this point(or so i would presume). While scripture is the sole authority. And the bible doesn't say women cannot serve but that they are not to have teach or have authority over men
Two things. One who gives a rats what any person says about this. What does the scriptures say. Secondly who is to say that the Preacher, the Teacher holds the power. A woman serving in humility can hold more godly strength than a male pastor. The sexism in this debate is clear, because the argument is about positions of carnal power (leadership, teacher, pastor). Who said these are the positions to be sought after? Read the scripture. Gimmie a scripture that contradicts 1st Tim.
You suggest that "women are just as brave, just as sacraficial, just as called to do the great, noble, and dangerous works for Christ". I think Mark Driscoll would agree with you!
The issue is, "should a woman lead men, and be allowed to lead or pastor a church?" That may be debatable, but virtually all other areas of ministry are open to women, and women are better at many of them. The misunderstanding is when someone says "a woman should not lead in a church" and people think that that means a woman is inferior, ungifted, not useful, ineffective, and unable to minister in any way. That is not true in history, the Bible, personal experience, and Mark Driscoll's teaching.
I should just point out that while this is a controversial biblical topic, NO one, (including Mark) is saying women should not be effective Christians, diligent in almost every form of ministry. I (along with Mark, in his book "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood") highly praise many of the women in the video! By all means they should travel as medical missionaries, distribute christian literature, and are to be admired for faithfulness martyrdom!
I too kept waiting for what Mark Driscoll has to say about the subject and became weary of waiting.
My opinion is that claiming that men are indisputably in charge ignores many parts of the Bible. Some of these verses ignored by men include the Book of Esther, 1 Samuel 25, Judges 4, Joshua 2, Joshua 6, Galatians 3:28, and Ephesians 5:21, which says:
"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
I hope the Church can put these foolish gender issues aside and become united in Spirit.
Some nice quotes, but do you see the problem? They are not from the Bible. The Bible doesn't put women beneath men but we they do have different roles. And if you watch any sermons of Driscolls about men and women, he has high respect for women and the roles that God wants for them. Your information on how the BIble and Driscoll view women is way off base. Watch driscoll's sermon series on 1st timothy. That should help you understand.
@thatrockwaschrist. Have a look at your garden and see if there are any weeds,thistles etc.People are still dying,women still have pain during child birth. If these things are happening we are still under the curse.Jesus died for our sins so that when we die we no longer experience these things.Adam & Eve did the same thing but Adam was held accountable as he was the head of the relationship. Remember they were both there. Don't be deceived like Eve & say Did God really say women carn't preach?
@fanoflittleman. All scripture is God breathed 2 Tim 3:16.1 Cor 14:33-37 talking about how women are prevented from giving instruction during worship (note v37-38 ...let him acknowledge what I am writing to you is the LORDS command.) I'm sorry if you have been treated badly by men in the past but you can remind christain men that they should hold women in high regard. Men have no more right to be saved than women as we are all equal in Christ Gal 3:28. (this verse realtes to salvation only)
It prevents them from preaching and I'm sorry if that is a saw point for you but thats what the bible says, it's not my opinion. (And just so you know I'm not scared or jealous of women)
Before the Lord changed my heart I held the feminist point of few as I felt women where not treated with enough respect. The bible says men should love their wives as Christ loved the church, so we have a high standard to follow and can only do so with His help.
Hang on, hang on. No one is putting women down and no one is surpressing women. I'm a happily married man with a wife that I love, cherish and adore. I also have a daughter who I love dearly and pray that she will grow to know and love the Lord and will submit herself to His will.
Do i think women are capable to preach? Yes
Do I think some women could preach better than some men I've heard? Yes
Does the bible say its okay for women to preach? No, no it doesn't.
I was hoping for a Biblical viewpoint on women as leaders in the church but unfortunately the video gives no such arguments. It merely says that women have been martyred, planted churches, done all sorts of amazing things. This doesn't prove their belonging in leadership. I'm not saying it is one way or the other, but I wanted to hear a Biblical defense of women in church leadership. Again, all the video did was give facts about what women have done in the past, not what God says about it.
its explicitly stated in scripture that a pastor should be the HUSBAND of one wife. of course women have done lots of great work for the Gospel and died as martyrs, but that doesn't mean they can preach and be elders. that responsibility is on the shoulders of men, and that's clearly stated over and over in scripture.
I think you'll find that the women in leadership issue can be discovered in Gen 3:16 where it says - Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.
The women desires the headship as a result of the fall and her sinfull nature blinds her to that fact and the obvious scriptures which prevent them from preaching and holding positions of elder and pastor.
God never said that a woman could not preach His word..even in the garden..she would be saved in childbirth and the man in tilling the ground..eve was deceived, adam sinned in the garden..men have the sin nature if you want to be technical..i think women have been villianized enough in the Church..women ministered to Jesus..are we to say the a mere "male" is better than Jesus? head means responsiblity not that we look to them as gods :)
fanoflittleman... You wrote "even in the garden..she would be saved in childbirth and the man in tilling the ground." Are qouting something from Genesis? I have not takin a side in this discussion, its just that your making comments with nothing behind them but your opinion. some proof, or something to help hold up your argument..... and it was really hard to follow.
I dont think its an opinion..why dont you read it for yourself? and I guess it doesnt say that women "ministered" to Jesus either..what are all of you afraid of? I think there is real jealousy when men find out God respects women the same..shame that beleivers have this jealousy for othe beleivers..real shame
maybe when he said she would be ruled over meant how women would be treated in the world..why would God make a womans husband a curse? it was still sin for a man to abuse his wife..he wasnt given a license to abuse her
@BrendanMurrayJubana - that was a curse because of the fall. Did Christ not redeem us from that curse? Also Paul makes it clear "in Adam all sin" - not Eve. Eve was deceived; Adam was not.
This video is committing a number of fallacies of argument. One being that when guys like Driscoll state the position that women should not be preaching to men in church, that that somehow includes missionary activity also. I don't know how you get from preaching in church to missions? Men like Driscoll fully advocate women missionaries... so i guess all i can say is - what are you trying to argue? do you even know?
If you need a good laugh, watch this ridiculous video. I love how they use paintings from Byzantine and older Europe from when women were even more suppressed than they are now. The quotes are GREAT too especially because they don't relate to anything in the 21st C. hahaha... Made my day.
aint it the truth....some spend their whole life trying to tell someone else what they CANT do..what are they afraid of? I think some are fearful because women have such a sensitivity to the Holy Ghost and that a woman might show that she can speak and hear from God too..its jealousy and fear I think
This video does express a serious point, that historically women have been repressed.
I don´t believe that is what Mark Driscoll is saying though.
The fact that there are too few men at church and serving God is true, and that doesn´t mean women should all leave, it means that the men who think they are any better should move themselves!
It´s in the Bible that when a man does not do his job a women will.
THE MOST IMPORTANT IS THAT NO ONE IS BETTER, THEY NEED EACH OTHER!
Yeah, but God is also fine with slavery and genocide and feels things like coveting your neighbor's oxen deserve special mention, so I wouldn't put too much stock in his opinion.
I dont think Mark Driscoll is the problem , I think the bible is, if you read it Mark only says whats there, we cant change it even if we want to , Id love to change it at times too Im not keen on turning the other cheek at times, but Im not the boss
I've only watch the first 2 minutes (well, 1/3 of the clip) and seen no scripture. The truth is, God made man and women equal with different rolls. The truth is, God put the leadership responsibility on the man. The truth is, God's purpose for the woman is the man's helper. The truth is, pride leads women to leading position. The truth is, the devils are trying to destroy God's plan and original purpose by elevate the woman and turn society upside down. Deal with the truth, not Mark Driscoll.
@thnguyen24 Me? Of course not - no idea at all... but like all human beings, I can certainly recognise nasty-minded claptrap (and little men intimidated by by the perceived threat of women).
@thnguyen24 Because your'e a nasty and arrogant little knob. It has been my experience that nasty, arrogant little knobs tend to be strangers to the truth.
@thnguyen24 Because you don't seem to have any idea that you are one; and anyone that can conceive of the irrational ideas that you do, must be an arrogant knob. Hitler: arrogant knob. Stalin: arrogant knob. Male chauvinists: arrogant knobs (but very small), and you: arrogant knob. Don't feel lonely: at least 30 percent of the hetero Christiianists I know are arrogant knobs. I refuse to use the word "Christian" on the likes of you.
Not a single scripture in this video. I have no issue with the equality of women, we are equal in God's eyes. But we are also different, and God designed us that way. If women want to be missionaries, minister to women, teach, be part of the music ministry.... those are all great things that women are extraordinary at. But they do not belong in the Pulpit having authority over men.
If one person is supposed to lead, and the other is supposed to follow, then they are NOT considered fucking equal. It is impossible for me to fall for the doublespeak that you christians are so good at.
@ObamaIsPathetic according to the Constitution, do I have the same rights as the president of the United States? Do Nancy Pelosi and I differ in our equality according to the Constitution? They both might have elevated authority, responsibility, and even more honor, but they are not greater that I nor do they have more rights than me. We are equal with different roles in society. My job is to be a citizen and do what I do, his is to lead because he was placed into that roll.
@thnguyen24 lol the truth is, there is no god. the truth is we are animals roaming this earth and there is no higher being. like a flower, we grow, we live, we die. that is all. if you need a god to comfort you, then go ahead and have one. but i want to appreciate this life cus this is the only life we have.
@thnguyen24 I'll tell you exactly where. I got my life from my mother and my father. no imaginary man in the sky put me here. my loving parents did, through the natural process of sexual intercourse which all mammals living on planet earth do. including humans.
@thnguyen24 The real truth is that there is nothing a man has over a woman which makes him more inclined to lead. Who are you to decide what god intended, or what the truth is? You are not god, nor are the chauvinistic men who taught you women can't lead. :)
The bible will also tell you stone your children, kill anyone who commits adultery, keep slaves, and forget about science. But why do we look over those immature perceptions for the world and not the one saying women not as capable?
Didn't answer a thing from the Word of God, but quoted what many Chrstian leaders thought throughout the ages, influenced mainly because of their contemporary culture.
Being 'the head' does not mean to be the absolute governor above women's will... it is to humbly serve them (as Christ loved His Church) so both, in the covenant of marriage, grow in holiness for the glory of God.
Secondly, Driscoll uses Scripture to make his point. If we can all agree that Scripture is inerrant, than Driscoll's logic is sound. But there isn't a single line of Scripture in this video in support of the contrary.
The first problem I have with this video is that it uses Mark Driscoll's name in the title, yet does not contain a single quote from Driscoll. There are many quotes from other men and what they said about women in the church, but nothing from Driscoll. While I may be familiar with Driscoll's teaching and his views, many people that see this video may not be. And from watching it, you could walk away believing that Driscoll is some sort of woman-hater or sexist (which he is most definitely not).
this is a silly argument. if people want to quote other literature, people and present culture as the basis that women should be in eldership then yes! you can win that argument. however it is most christians deep conviction to get their understanding from what the bible says. i have yet to see a co-herent argument that is biblically based that comes down in favour of women elders. (the verse where paul says 'we are all gentiles' etc is obviously in context abt eternal inheritence)
Surely you're not hoping to be taken seriously with this video. You don't address any real points, and the use of "Voice of Truth" as a backing track is a terrible ploy.
I'm male and egalitarian, but I see videos like this and just cringe, as it's far too emotive, don't make any real points, ignores the Bible and in general is a waste of time.
Challenge we face is exactly as Mr. Driscoll highlights -- men refuse to lead, women fill the vaccuum left by men's impotence (in life, not sex).
This is a matter, not of competence, but obedience. Women are obviously competent, capable, amazing. Imagine a world where men were obedient to lead courageously (and lovingly) and these amazing women's support enable even greater ministry than the tremendous service they provided. We shall never know until men stand up and be God's men!
Bathsheba dictated Proverbs 31, the Virtous Woman chapter. So women can't preach from the pulpit, but a woman's words can be preached from the pulpit?
Driscoll's point is the video you are responding to is not that women aren't important and cannot do great things. He is and has been stressing that men are failing to be men. I don't think the issue of women in leadership would be as much of an issue if men would simply be real men.
Yes, scripture clearly teaches a top level of male leadership in the home and in the church, but before they can be lead, guys have to be real men.
Your arguments don't really match up to Driscoll's because he actually uses the Bible and inerrant scripture to prove that women should not preach... you are using quotes and things that happened throughout history...and yes women dying for Christ is sad but God calls us to stand up for him no matter what. and it's not that women can't teach of Christ or evangelize but more they shouldn't be a head role in the church over men...
This video does and absolute horrible job at making a point; although, I don't deny good intentions. It's simply that her objective has a void of Biblical evidence or directives (as shown in the Bible) from God. Her argument is that God is fine with women leading men and the church because they just so happen to be doing so. Sodom and Gamora could have used the very same argument to justify adultery and homosexuality. Please don't just use the culture to tell a Pastor he is wrong.
that depends our these churches working with women leading and my secound question is what if women shouldnt lead? would you listen to god or......fill in the blank
mark can be a little shall we say blunt,but his points are biblical,whatever your personal veiws on ladies in the church we should sumbit to the word of God,which if you are born again will be where you find your joy. we should all be wery that our own opinion is the voice of the rebellious nature saying my way,as the great song by casting crowns posted we must listen to the voice of truth,which is found in the authority of the Bible.
Note, the roles you mentioned are the result of the curse from the fall (Gen. 3:16).
Thus, the relationships men and women (more specifically, wives and husbands) have on earth now are not the way they were meant to be. Unfortunately, we have to put up with it until.... later.
I must add that I really do not agree with most of arguments women use to support their position. Even though I lean more towards women teaching, preaching and maybe leading with authority over them BUT it is disappointing to see there are so few who honestly approached the issue without forcing their opinion on the passages of the Scriptures.
Anyway, it was rather encouraging (and heart-breaking) video. Even though I do not agree with everything you say in your videos.
But can we? It is not that easy if we are to be despised by our brothers because we teach a man about the things of God.
If we truly believe in their interpretation of this passage we should not teach anyone - we are by nature easily deceived. It is therefore important issue.
Nevertheless, very wise comment. It should bring us all back to the heart of a matter.
women can certainly lead. they have led the man..in secret...sincethebegining...sincethe woman is amystery to the man...she intrigrues him..she was made to be desirable to the man. meant...to untie him...inn more ways then one...sexually..loosehim...and spiritually cause him to seek answersfrom the lord...answers she already knows..a woman can teach a man..as a man can teach a woman.a goodman...knows this.the head of the man may be...god ...but wisdom isthe head ofthe woman.god n is wisdomaswell
What drivel. No one said women cannot "go". However God says they cannot teach. Stop listening to the world and start listening to the Bible.
Apparently you don't like being a woman. Well if God made you a woman, you'd better just get used to it and start fulfilling your role as a helper to those men God has put over you.
And can you please remove that awful music from the clip?
I'm a strict complimentarian. But I think your comments aren't Biblical here.
Most specifically, "You'd better get used to it and start fufilling your role as a helper to those God has put over you."
That sounds very negative and destructive. God didn't put men "over" women. Men are not superior to women. They are equal in essence, yet different in functions.
It seems you are a confused young fellow. You don't like the word "over"? Well God used it in Genesis 3:16, saying her husband would, "rule over thee."
He also used the word with regards to church leadership in Hebrews 13:17, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:" (Hebrews 13:17)
Would you claim that it is "negative and destructive" for a church member to submit to his Pastor, or a citizen to sumbit to civil authority?
God has ordained that "ONLY MEN" are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church.(1 Timothy 2:11-14) Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The only activity women are restricted from is teaching men or having spiritual authority over them. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers.
Don't get me wrong. I do not agree with women being leaders without men over them. And teachers never were a final authority - there were people who tested what they say.
We know that women were teaching their sons (Proverbs), we know there was a prophetess teaching kings, Abigail rebuked David and Deborah led Israel.
I respect those who think women cannot teach if they do that from their love for Scriptures. But if it is simple legalism than it can be harmful.
I did NOT see one Bibical reference, because there isn't one for pastoring a church or leading a church. Women can be missionaries and martyrs, but according to God's Word, cannot lead a church.
I think when you have women preachers it is a wonderful power of God to use anyone for his glory in however He sees fit, through hIs ways, not ours through His truth , not mans translation of it no matter how sincere we may be. Let us be humble, Let us say, that if a woman is preaching, there is a man who is not worthy of that post.
@mjpunk1234 So St. Paul is a false teacher for saying that a Woman was a fellow apostle in his greetings? And the whole In Christ there is not Male or Female? This role busting thing is what? False?
@mjpunk1234 According to the gospels, the angels instructed the woman at the tomb to teach the central doctrine of the Christian church (the resurrection) to the male disciples who fled the scene. Anyone who says the Bible doesn't support women starting churches or teaching men hasn't read the STORY told in the bible. There would be no church without the woman apostles. It was a patriarchal society that treated men as slaves and women as property, but God put the real story in the narrative.
@thekatephillips One of the duties or roles of a peacher or teacher is “speak and exhort and rebuke with all authority” (Titus 2:15, KJV), which is a direct violation of 1Tim 2:12. We want to be consistent with what Scripture tells us. With the understanding, we see in the examples of establishment of ministry for teachers, leaders and elders, were men 100% of the time. (Numbers 8:9-11, Numbers 27:16-18, 22-23, Acts 6:5-6, Acts 13:1-3; 14:4,14 and 1 Timothy 4:14)
@mjpunk1234 I want to emphasize my the above comment. The violation if giving or stating that women have as much authority as men do, in regards to leading the church. We see one of the roles of elders in Titus 2:15 is to do things with full authority, and we know that 1Tim 2:12 declares that women are NOT to have such authority. We can come to the conclusion that it is obvious women are not to lead the church due to lack of authority by God.
@mjpunk1234 Dude, I'll take what the angels say and how God chose to spread the news of the resurrection any day over what Paul says. Those texts went through over 300 years of heavy editing by the men in charge before we got the first version of "the Bible," which continued to be edited when the people in charge didn't like what it said. (Don't believe me? Find a Catholic bible - an older version - and compare.) That's why the narrative of the story is so important.
@thekatephillips That is HERESY, this is your first admonition to repent! If you do not, I will dust the sand off my feet and you will answer to God on Judgement Day, and His wrath.
@mjpunk1234 This is actually completely not true. Priscilla and Aquila were full partners in ministry, and many scholars believe Priscilla to be the true author of Hebrews. (Of course, her name was obscured later because the men couldn't handle it...) And women are leaders in many instances in the bible, whether Paul liked it or not.
@thekatephillips C'mon now. Why do you say, "whether Paul liked it or not"? Is the whole Bible inerrant, inspired by God or not? We CANNOT pick and choose, white-out what we don't want to see in God's Holy Bible. It's there, and we need to deal with it as the Truth it is instead of starting crap about it. Paul as 'male chauvenist pig" was the In Thing in the 70s but we've all grown up since then. =)
@thekatephillips 1 Timothy 2:11-12 — "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." In statements from Paul like the above and others, Paul was following the order of authority which God set forth. Which is CHRIST > MAN > WOMEN. In the Word of God, the NT Elders are defined as being males — “the husband of but one wife” (1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6).
What is wrong with men being men and women being women? I haven't yet heard Driscoll say anything about oppressing or silencing or thwarting women? Why is everyone attacking Driscoll?
This sort of made for women-feminist videos are very unpleasant, they only promote divisions by attempting to change church's way of thinking.
Please don't follow cultural movements leaded by ungodly people... Moreover, you are refuting a straw man, for we never said that women may not evangelize or to be a missionary (that is anti biblical), but, as it is written, they may not preach as pastors do. Simply that. Just accept what bible says
A "Jezebel" spirit has attached itself to what was intended to be a fight for women's civil rights. What has happened is that most Christian men in this country have become like Jezebel's husband Ahab -- they fear women more than they fear God!
Did you even listen to what Mark Driscoll said? Women can be martyrs and missionaries, they can plant churches. THEY CANNOT PREACH! This is in the bible, you should read it. Learn someone's doctrine before you attack it next time.
Curious that you believe that the Word was there from the beginning..something proclaimed by John in the Bible..what if that translation was inaccurate? Or was added at a later date? Then your stance falls apart, doesn't it? hmm.. With all of that said, there are many things I am sure we would disagree on, but our common ground is Jesus, His death, and His resurrection..by which we will all get to meet in eternity someday and laugh off the ridiculousness of our "logical perceptions" :) ..
The idea of The Word does not belong to John. It is common to most Semitic religious texts when expounding creation. The Word means the Action of God. The Action of God is His boundless Love and the resultant "actions" of that Love, which is perfect in every way. It does not refer to The Bible. I cannot imagine God supporting certain views, punishments, and tortures recommended by His fallible scribes who were prone to error as well as to virtue and goodness.
If you look at scripture- like Corinthians- where women who came to Christ were prior prostitutes and other like occupations, it was a huge distraction, temptation, and downfall to the men and boys of the "church". It's a matter of loving our brothers enough not to distract or deter. I still believe there are times I deliver better messages then other men my age, but it's glory to God and not to me-but when I start getting caught up in this argument, nothing holy comes of it.
Here's the thing- I've wrestled with this for a long time since I am called to be in full time ministry and I am a woman. It's not that women CAN'T, or that they don't do as good of a job as men... the quotes you pulled are from men who were right in theology but had a terrible view of women because of their society and culture at the time. It's not a matter of not being able to do it well (I repeat), it's a matter of the ability of the people in the flock to want to follow...
..contd.. YOU clearly think its been altered, is outdated, and question it being infallible, which is your own belief. The problem is, your beliefs now have an eternity of holes and questions that will never be answered. You mention that the scriptures are based on "the needs of the time", but what you are forgetting brother, is that the needs of that time, this time, and all time are the same. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their issues then (addressed by God through Paul etc) are ours now still..
Knowing that scripture is not infallible is not a belief, it is a blatant and beautiful fact. The list of Paul's questionable anti-woman rants, and the amount of biblical misogyny leads me to believe that scriptures (including both canonised and apocryphal ones) must be read with a guiding light that is not The Bible, but a Spirit (you know Him well, hopefully) that is more living than a book (any book). You would do well to remember that it is the Gospel OF Jesus, not BY Him.
One more thing. I adore the Pauline writings, and love the Gospels. But there is no way that I am going to be goaded into considering these documents the Alpha and Omega of The Word. At best, biblical scriptures are an introductory love letter to The Word - something that was already extant in The Beginning.
Very good points, and many certain truths. I will end this conversation by saying that it is my full belief that while humanity is fallen, God is sovereign and His will, will be done. I believe that He inspired and produced the Bible for many reasons, one of which being the love letter that you mentioned. Yes, Nicea produced the "Bible" but by God's will. The Bible is altogether the most amazing document that connects in more ways than any human will ever understand (or could've produced)
God's will won't be done in every case. "Thy will be done" is a plea, not a certainty. That is the meaning of existence: our choice to allow God's will to manifest. Either we choose our will, or we choose His. Nicea was not, in my opinion, the "will" of God - it resulted in the idea of heresy, and the genocide(s) that followed. God's will is connected to His Word. His Word is His action in our lives, once we ask for it. The Bible is his will "through a glass darkly".
This isn't as big a deal as you guys are making it.
l33tpwnzord 1 month ago
Priscilla wrote Hebrews
*ducks under flame blast*
sapnyosentry 5 months ago
Women should not lead worship. It is not a debate the bible in all of it's different languages and translations mean the same thing? Somebody wrote "well what about all the millions that women pastors have saved?" My question is how do you know that? If you cant follow instructions out of a book you preach about then what does it say about you?
killforce787878 7 months ago
No. Next question.
drumrnva 7 months ago
You use a song that repeats over and over "I will believe the voice of truth" and yet you do not quote any scripture whatsoever. No one ever said women couldn't be martyrs or saints. However, the scripture, the actual voice of truth, does have something to say about women leading the actual worship service... Working outside that is a different story...
nicodemous52 7 months ago
I think the debate is, what demographic of people is severely malnourished of the holy spirit near us? If we sit around and complain that one person said we need more dudes in worship...what good does that do to winning people for Christ? If we actually get out and reach the demographic that God has chosen for us to bless, we will actually change lives! If we spend our time even debating more spiritual issues with non-Christians that would be better than debating something as foolish as this.
firebob12345 7 months ago
If we're talking about what Mark Driscoll has to say, let's examine previous statements. Driscoll and his wife say that men are good at working and bad at caring for children, and vice versa for women. These are *absolutely ridiculous statements* from any perspective: Biblical, evolutionary, psychological, or cultural.
He also myopically focuses on making money as the only way men can and do provide for their families. It's insulting, backward thinking that is not helpful for the modern church.
Memerylane 7 months ago
you've misunderstood driscoll if this is what u think he thinks of women, do ur research and don't base ur opinions on one clip you might have seen!
seph00007 8 months ago
. What about all those millions of souls that were saved from Hell over the past 2000 years by the preaching of the Gospel out of a woman's mouth? It is like asking if a woman should be allowed to save a person from a burning building. We are all commanded to to the work of the Lord and rescue souls from Hell. You saying God approves of letting a soul go to Hell rather than hear the Gospel from a woman? forbidding women to preach is a doctrine of the devil.
uncleoscar7 9 months ago
I have a strong feeling as a woman, that many of the quotes that were used in this video were taken out of proportion. The bible is the ultimate source of knowledge as its God-breathed. The word of God comes first before the words of man. The bible does not look down on women, in fact if anything the bible advocates equality, the bible however also points out key differences. Many of the missionaries that were featured in this were god fearing women, the bible doesn't look down on them.
H0tkebab 11 months ago
Thank the gods we see women just as loving and just as honorable as men. The abrahamic religions got a lot of nerve at times. Thank the gods and the ancestors we see past them.
FollowerOfTheGods 11 months ago
Wow, I almost don't know what to say. Woman r a Powerful part of the church, sometimes more then Men. We both need to work together to make it happen, anything else shows how easily the devil gets his hands in everything. This is not right.
Disease409 1 year ago
Yep Driscoll is right..unfortunately this video doesnt really engage in what he has to say. Driscoll`s in line with Pauls teaching ( who from scripture we know loved women believers and had many women friends in the various churches at that time ) is more about male only headship of the congregation. That women have done great and amazing things for Jesus he would applaud I think !!
slipstream2238 1 year ago
@purpleirismama
Oh, I support women preaching. Check out watch?v=DuJWUr7H_mM
and watch?v=eDsuFfqtJqQ
and watch?v=vhPbJV85hqs
TFarache 1 year ago
being a martyr and a leader in the church are two diferent things. funy all the martyred women you talk of would all have agreed with me on this.
ninnzbinnz 1 year ago 2
women in the church are represented by the dead. Wake up, the church will never recognize the plight of women. There is no interest no payoff. We need strong women in the socio-political area's of the community as leaders with new fresh ideas. We need strong women leaders, down with the church, up with humanity!
Pitfytr 1 year ago
Is mark driscoll right...? If he is this video was a waste of time!
drumneath 1 year ago
Very disappointing video. No mention of Scripture. Maybe because the Bible clearly teaches a women is not to preach. Enjoyed the music though!
nedmac123 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
This is one of the most sickest, perverted, twisted, attack on the believers Helmet of Salvation and Armor of GOD. Wow. Washerucess, Calvinist, TULIPS and the like never know if they are ever saved even when they may think they are one of the elected they are still not sure so they "perservere" still not knowing if they are. I have a video that exposes this religous spirit and false doctrine for what it is. All those justified by faith in believing Jesus Christ KEEP UR ARMOR ON PLEASE!
PureGraceEvangelism 1 year ago
1 Timothy 2:11-12 (New International Version) 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
Shauntie85 1 year ago
@Shauntie85 Thank you :) you answered all my questions. God Bless You
boatstaylor 1 year ago
I'm just going to say this clearly. "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." 1 Timothy 2:12.
ANY Woman who teaches or takes authority over men, and does not REPENT will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
"The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;" 1 John 2:4
Anyone who tries to claim Paul was talking only to that Church, CANNOT support such a claim from Scripture!
SERVANTofYHVH 1 year ago
Women LISTEN! There's NOTHING in Scripture that says you can't serve God! He calls you to! But He FORBIDS you to TEACH or to be in AUTHORITY! Let no man deceive you, anyone who commits sin is of the devil!
If you DISOBEY The COMMANDMENT Of GOD, it will not matter how big your "ministry" was, or how well you taught. You will NOT inherit God's Kingdom!
"Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven!"
SERVANTofYHVH 1 year ago
@SERVANTofYHVH
Woman = wife, man = husband. "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own HUSBANDS at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
TFarache 1 year ago
@TFarache: Let me add as a woman. I support man-leadership although I can lead as a woman. It's disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church, because it shows that man is not doing his job as a leader. Therefore, bravo man, go go go and lead others and teach women to submit. I'm with you! female-discipler
jcobadja 1 year ago
@jcobadja
If a husband tells his wife to preach, she should preach. She only has to submit to her husband, not any other man.
TFarache 1 year ago
@jcobadja how does it show that the man is not doing his job as a leader? A males genitals don't make him more inclined to lead honey. And women should never submit to men, maybe pathetic ones like you, because men have nothing over them, therefore there is nothing to submit to.
whatshername62 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
Alot of religous spirits in the hizzzouse! I am A CHILD/woman OF GOD and I preach the Gospel and MANY have been saved, healed, delivered, set free, born again, headed for heaven and denying hell!!!!! Hallelujah! Praise be to Jesus Christ the only Son of GOD!
PureGraceEvangelism 1 year ago
they can go but they still aren't to teach and have authority over a man in the church.
canucksteel 1 year ago
God would not suppress a people group. God does not oppress or hold or keep anyone down. Yet the church does this with women. It consistently takes away their opportunity to have a leadership role or to teach from the word. Women can preach just fine and read just fine and reason and explain just fine. I see nothing in life that would determine that a woman would not be able to lead effectively so why would God do this? It does not seem just and God is most just. Look at scripture again.
booksfellover 1 year ago
@booksfellover If you do not repent from this heresy, you will not inherit God's Kingdom! This is not an issue of who gets to be the "most important person" or have the "better role" it is a matter of OBEDIENCE to God, it is an issue of SALVATION! Wake up! It is a TERRIBLE thing to fall into the hands of the living God! Repent!
SERVANTofYHVH 1 year ago
@SERVANTofYHVH You should check out "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Jonathan Edwards, the old Great Awakening preacher. I think he would be right up your alley.
booksfellover 1 year ago
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booksfellover 1 year ago
Do women have value? Of course. Are they equal with men? Sure. But that doesn't change what the bible says about women in ministry roles. If your argument is that the bible is wrong, I understand, but then you call in question the rest of the bible without realizing it. Today "Christians" have a "Have my cake and eat it mentality." I have more respect for people who reject the bible, than try to re-invent it. I have utmost respect for people who actually take the bible seriously, like Mars Hill.
jimboo40 1 year ago
Comment removed
Criffler 1 year ago
@Criffler I think might have accidentally removed your comment. My apologies.
mjpunk1234 1 year ago
Seriously? Not a single bible verse in this argument? It isn't about emotion or what we feel must be right. It is about God and what He says is right. Can and does God use women for His glory? Absolutely! Thus the book of Esther. But that doesn't change what God has said in 1 Tim 2:9-15. Just because it isn't easy to hear or even if it doesn't "feel" right, it is still God's word and we must grow into that truth.
Criffler 1 year ago
If you think driscoll teaches that women are to be footstools, then you are sadly sadly mistaken.
7shortofperfection 1 year ago
doctrines of men slipped into our theology.
joejohnson043 1 year ago
I may or not agree with the idea. But, you lack scripture and try to persuade people by tapping into their emotions instead of using logical reasoning.
DuesEstSemperFidelis 1 year ago
To all those who are insisting that the bible says women shouldn't be pastors, I have this to say: the passage most commonly used against women preaching is referring to people (who happened to be women) interrupting the sermon during church.
To all those who say that there are no women preachers in the bible, I say Phoebe. She was a deacon (Romans 16:1). I have more examples, but don't recall them at the moment.
stitch99 1 year ago
I believe that God can call whomever He chooses. That's not saying that women are above men or undoing the order that God has set. I realize that many women in out society are stying to set themselves above men and belittling them. But God has equiped all of us. Given us each gifts and talents. God is the same today as He was yesterday. That's what the bible says right? So if He can use a woman to lead Israel thousands of years ago, He can use one today.
naegore 1 year ago
If a woman cannot lead, then why, in the Old Testament of all places, did God place the woman Deborah over the entire nation of Israel? It wasn't God who said women shouldn't preach. It was Paul. If you study the history of Corinth, you learn that there were several cults in which women played a prominent role in worship, and that is why Paul said what he did, that and there society in general. Women were thought and treated like 2nd class citizens.
naegore 1 year ago
thnguyen24 - lol i was thinking the same thing. and ive pretty much watched the whole thing and dont recall any scripture, he/she is even using emotional(good) music in the background to try and prove this point(or so i would presume). While scripture is the sole authority. And the bible doesn't say women cannot serve but that they are not to have teach or have authority over men
llLooTll 1 year ago
I love the spiffy Christian music in the background.
jennyofmany 1 year ago
thanks for this vid I believe in women preachers.
pricnesscel 1 year ago
Two things. One who gives a rats what any person says about this. What does the scriptures say. Secondly who is to say that the Preacher, the Teacher holds the power. A woman serving in humility can hold more godly strength than a male pastor. The sexism in this debate is clear, because the argument is about positions of carnal power (leadership, teacher, pastor). Who said these are the positions to be sought after? Read the scripture. Gimmie a scripture that contradicts 1st Tim.
Apemano 1 year ago
Yeah, I've seen male leadership in church. Run for your life.
abbeyism 1 year ago
You suggest that "women are just as brave, just as sacraficial, just as called to do the great, noble, and dangerous works for Christ". I think Mark Driscoll would agree with you!
jeremyedgar3 1 year ago
So, are you like the Pharisees in Acts 15 that put the traditions of some men over the Holy Scripture?
TupperTupping 1 year ago
Sola Scriptura Ladies!
samwisegamgeese 1 year ago
The issue is, "should a woman lead men, and be allowed to lead or pastor a church?" That may be debatable, but virtually all other areas of ministry are open to women, and women are better at many of them. The misunderstanding is when someone says "a woman should not lead in a church" and people think that that means a woman is inferior, ungifted, not useful, ineffective, and unable to minister in any way. That is not true in history, the Bible, personal experience, and Mark Driscoll's teaching.
belezadobrazil 1 year ago
I should just point out that while this is a controversial biblical topic, NO one, (including Mark) is saying women should not be effective Christians, diligent in almost every form of ministry. I (along with Mark, in his book "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood") highly praise many of the women in the video! By all means they should travel as medical missionaries, distribute christian literature, and are to be admired for faithfulness martyrdom!
belezadobrazil 1 year ago
I too kept waiting for what Mark Driscoll has to say about the subject and became weary of waiting.
My opinion is that claiming that men are indisputably in charge ignores many parts of the Bible. Some of these verses ignored by men include the Book of Esther, 1 Samuel 25, Judges 4, Joshua 2, Joshua 6, Galatians 3:28, and Ephesians 5:21, which says:
"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
I hope the Church can put these foolish gender issues aside and become united in Spirit.
blueskunk12 1 year ago
Some nice quotes, but do you see the problem? They are not from the Bible. The Bible doesn't put women beneath men but we they do have different roles. And if you watch any sermons of Driscolls about men and women, he has high respect for women and the roles that God wants for them. Your information on how the BIble and Driscoll view women is way off base. Watch driscoll's sermon series on 1st timothy. That should help you understand.
shea612 1 year ago
@thatrockwaschrist. Have a look at your garden and see if there are any weeds,thistles etc.People are still dying,women still have pain during child birth. If these things are happening we are still under the curse.Jesus died for our sins so that when we die we no longer experience these things.Adam & Eve did the same thing but Adam was held accountable as he was the head of the relationship. Remember they were both there. Don't be deceived like Eve & say Did God really say women carn't preach?
BrendanMurrayJubana 1 year ago 3
@fanoflittleman. All scripture is God breathed 2 Tim 3:16.1 Cor 14:33-37 talking about how women are prevented from giving instruction during worship (note v37-38 ...let him acknowledge what I am writing to you is the LORDS command.) I'm sorry if you have been treated badly by men in the past but you can remind christain men that they should hold women in high regard. Men have no more right to be saved than women as we are all equal in Christ Gal 3:28. (this verse realtes to salvation only)
BrendanMurrayJubana 1 year ago
It prevents them from preaching and I'm sorry if that is a saw point for you but thats what the bible says, it's not my opinion. (And just so you know I'm not scared or jealous of women)
I Cor 14:33-38
I Tim 3:1-7
Titus 1:5-9
Before the Lord changed my heart I held the feminist point of few as I felt women where not treated with enough respect. The bible says men should love their wives as Christ loved the church, so we have a high standard to follow and can only do so with His help.
BrendanMurrayJubana 1 year ago
Hang on, hang on. No one is putting women down and no one is surpressing women. I'm a happily married man with a wife that I love, cherish and adore. I also have a daughter who I love dearly and pray that she will grow to know and love the Lord and will submit herself to His will.
Do i think women are capable to preach? Yes
Do I think some women could preach better than some men I've heard? Yes
Does the bible say its okay for women to preach? No, no it doesn't.
BrendanMurrayJubana 1 year ago
I was hoping for a Biblical viewpoint on women as leaders in the church but unfortunately the video gives no such arguments. It merely says that women have been martyred, planted churches, done all sorts of amazing things. This doesn't prove their belonging in leadership. I'm not saying it is one way or the other, but I wanted to hear a Biblical defense of women in church leadership. Again, all the video did was give facts about what women have done in the past, not what God says about it.
mightymergz 1 year ago 28
@mightymergz you made a good point. I was trying to find a biblical viewpoint in regard to woman as leaders in a church and I found nothing.
boatstaylor 1 year ago
@mightymergz What goes on in the world outside "the book "is threrfore on no interst to you--- God help us !
calum66 8 months ago
its explicitly stated in scripture that a pastor should be the HUSBAND of one wife. of course women have done lots of great work for the Gospel and died as martyrs, but that doesn't mean they can preach and be elders. that responsibility is on the shoulders of men, and that's clearly stated over and over in scripture.
logos3in1 1 year ago
@logos3in1 That's because there were those who practiced polygamy. There was no need to say women must be the wife of one husband.
ThatRockWasChrist 1 year ago
I think you'll find that the women in leadership issue can be discovered in Gen 3:16 where it says - Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.
The women desires the headship as a result of the fall and her sinfull nature blinds her to that fact and the obvious scriptures which prevent them from preaching and holding positions of elder and pastor.
BrendanMurrayJubana 2 years ago
God never said that a woman could not preach His word..even in the garden..she would be saved in childbirth and the man in tilling the ground..eve was deceived, adam sinned in the garden..men have the sin nature if you want to be technical..i think women have been villianized enough in the Church..women ministered to Jesus..are we to say the a mere "male" is better than Jesus? head means responsiblity not that we look to them as gods :)
fanoflittleman 2 years ago
fanoflittleman... You wrote "even in the garden..she would be saved in childbirth and the man in tilling the ground." Are qouting something from Genesis? I have not takin a side in this discussion, its just that your making comments with nothing behind them but your opinion. some proof, or something to help hold up your argument..... and it was really hard to follow.
jroc1987 2 years ago
I dont think its an opinion..why dont you read it for yourself? and I guess it doesnt say that women "ministered" to Jesus either..what are all of you afraid of? I think there is real jealousy when men find out God respects women the same..shame that beleivers have this jealousy for othe beleivers..real shame
fanoflittleman 2 years ago
maybe when he said she would be ruled over meant how women would be treated in the world..why would God make a womans husband a curse? it was still sin for a man to abuse his wife..he wasnt given a license to abuse her
fanoflittleman 2 years ago
@BrendanMurrayJubana - that was a curse because of the fall. Did Christ not redeem us from that curse? Also Paul makes it clear "in Adam all sin" - not Eve. Eve was deceived; Adam was not.
ThatRockWasChrist 1 year ago
This video is committing a number of fallacies of argument. One being that when guys like Driscoll state the position that women should not be preaching to men in church, that that somehow includes missionary activity also. I don't know how you get from preaching in church to missions? Men like Driscoll fully advocate women missionaries... so i guess all i can say is - what are you trying to argue? do you even know?
Revinius 2 years ago
If you need a good laugh, watch this ridiculous video. I love how they use paintings from Byzantine and older Europe from when women were even more suppressed than they are now. The quotes are GREAT too especially because they don't relate to anything in the 21st C. hahaha... Made my day.
CMac1980z 2 years ago
aint it the truth....some spend their whole life trying to tell someone else what they CANT do..what are they afraid of? I think some are fearful because women have such a sensitivity to the Holy Ghost and that a woman might show that she can speak and hear from God too..its jealousy and fear I think
fanoflittleman 2 years ago
Hi there people!!
This video does express a serious point, that historically women have been repressed.
I don´t believe that is what Mark Driscoll is saying though.
The fact that there are too few men at church and serving God is true, and that doesn´t mean women should all leave, it means that the men who think they are any better should move themselves!
It´s in the Bible that when a man does not do his job a women will.
THE MOST IMPORTANT IS THAT NO ONE IS BETTER, THEY NEED EACH OTHER!
CaptainSayao 2 years ago
I dislike this video because of the total lack of references to scripture.
What man/woman think or feel about a topic is not really of importance.
God´s opinion is what counts. And God gives us some references:
1. Timothy 2:12; 3:12; 3:2
Titus 1:6
1. Cor. 14:34
Women are not given authority over men. If a women would be the head of a assembly of God as a minster so how could one obey
Hebrews 13:17??
God bless you all.
PapillonSG 2 years ago
Yeah, but God is also fine with slavery and genocide and feels things like coveting your neighbor's oxen deserve special mention, so I wouldn't put too much stock in his opinion.
xTRUExHATEx 2 years ago
No scripture.
Johnboks 2 years ago
Comment removed
m2redshirt 2 years ago
I dont think Mark Driscoll is the problem , I think the bible is, if you read it Mark only says whats there, we cant change it even if we want to , Id love to change it at times too Im not keen on turning the other cheek at times, but Im not the boss
SuperXenomorph 2 years ago
I've only watch the first 2 minutes (well, 1/3 of the clip) and seen no scripture. The truth is, God made man and women equal with different rolls. The truth is, God put the leadership responsibility on the man. The truth is, God's purpose for the woman is the man's helper. The truth is, pride leads women to leading position. The truth is, the devils are trying to destroy God's plan and original purpose by elevate the woman and turn society upside down. Deal with the truth, not Mark Driscoll.
thnguyen24 2 years ago 28
@thnguyen24
amen!
allison098 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 truth is: you have no idea what the truth is.
nicksum29 1 year ago
@nicksum29 and you know what the truth is?
thnguyen24 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 Me? Of course not - no idea at all... but like all human beings, I can certainly recognise nasty-minded claptrap (and little men intimidated by by the perceived threat of women).
nicksum29 1 year ago
@nicksum29 if you have no idea what the truth is, how do you know that i dont know?
thnguyen24 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 Because your'e a nasty and arrogant little knob. It has been my experience that nasty, arrogant little knobs tend to be strangers to the truth.
nicksum29 1 year ago
@nicksum29 how do you know I'm a nasty and arrogant little knob?
thnguyen24 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 Because you don't seem to have any idea that you are one; and anyone that can conceive of the irrational ideas that you do, must be an arrogant knob. Hitler: arrogant knob. Stalin: arrogant knob. Male chauvinists: arrogant knobs (but very small), and you: arrogant knob. Don't feel lonely: at least 30 percent of the hetero Christiianists I know are arrogant knobs. I refuse to use the word "Christian" on the likes of you.
nicksum29 1 year ago
@nicksum29 WOW!!! Amazing...
thnguyen24 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 Knob
nicksum29 1 year ago
@nicksum29 lol...
thnguyen24 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 Outstanding comment....
Not a single scripture in this video. I have no issue with the equality of women, we are equal in God's eyes. But we are also different, and God designed us that way. If women want to be missionaries, minister to women, teach, be part of the music ministry.... those are all great things that women are extraordinary at. But they do not belong in the Pulpit having authority over men.
Yes... it is pride run afoul of God's will.
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
@thnguyen24
If one person is supposed to lead, and the other is supposed to follow, then they are NOT considered fucking equal. It is impossible for me to fall for the doublespeak that you christians are so good at.
ObamaIsPathetic 1 year ago
@ObamaIsPathetic Christian doctrine is meant for people who truly want to understand to understand. You can never understand us with that attitude.
thnguyen24 1 year ago
@ObamaIsPathetic according to the Constitution, do I have the same rights as the president of the United States? Do Nancy Pelosi and I differ in our equality according to the Constitution? They both might have elevated authority, responsibility, and even more honor, but they are not greater that I nor do they have more rights than me. We are equal with different roles in society. My job is to be a citizen and do what I do, his is to lead because he was placed into that roll.
MullahDaoud 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 lol the truth is, there is no god. the truth is we are animals roaming this earth and there is no higher being. like a flower, we grow, we live, we die. that is all. if you need a god to comfort you, then go ahead and have one. but i want to appreciate this life cus this is the only life we have.
TheBrownTies 1 year ago
@TheBrownTies where did you get your life from?
thnguyen24 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 I'll tell you exactly where. I got my life from my mother and my father. no imaginary man in the sky put me here. my loving parents did, through the natural process of sexual intercourse which all mammals living on planet earth do. including humans.
TheBrownTies 1 year ago
@thnguyen24 The real truth is that there is nothing a man has over a woman which makes him more inclined to lead. Who are you to decide what god intended, or what the truth is? You are not god, nor are the chauvinistic men who taught you women can't lead. :)
The bible will also tell you stone your children, kill anyone who commits adultery, keep slaves, and forget about science. But why do we look over those immature perceptions for the world and not the one saying women not as capable?
whatshername62 1 year ago
Well if you think Driscoll is wrong then you think scripture is wrong too cause his view is what scripture says.
jdhibb 2 years ago
Well that was a waste of 6 minutes of my life.
tboladave 2 years ago 2
Amen!!!
ak1986 2 years ago
Didn't answer a thing from the Word of God, but quoted what many Chrstian leaders thought throughout the ages, influenced mainly because of their contemporary culture.
Being 'the head' does not mean to be the absolute governor above women's will... it is to humbly serve them (as Christ loved His Church) so both, in the covenant of marriage, grow in holiness for the glory of God.
The church as a whole must reflect that, too...
elborquez 2 years ago
Nearly 6 minutes long and not one appeal to Scripture.
ChurchOfTheWay 2 years ago 2
I don't care it ain't my church.
alehug 2 years ago
Secondly, Driscoll uses Scripture to make his point. If we can all agree that Scripture is inerrant, than Driscoll's logic is sound. But there isn't a single line of Scripture in this video in support of the contrary.
dmelloy82 2 years ago
The first problem I have with this video is that it uses Mark Driscoll's name in the title, yet does not contain a single quote from Driscoll. There are many quotes from other men and what they said about women in the church, but nothing from Driscoll. While I may be familiar with Driscoll's teaching and his views, many people that see this video may not be. And from watching it, you could walk away believing that Driscoll is some sort of woman-hater or sexist (which he is most definitely not).
dmelloy82 2 years ago 2
this is a silly argument. if people want to quote other literature, people and present culture as the basis that women should be in eldership then yes! you can win that argument. however it is most christians deep conviction to get their understanding from what the bible says. i have yet to see a co-herent argument that is biblically based that comes down in favour of women elders. (the verse where paul says 'we are all gentiles' etc is obviously in context abt eternal inheritence)
789butch789 2 years ago
Surely you're not hoping to be taken seriously with this video. You don't address any real points, and the use of "Voice of Truth" as a backing track is a terrible ploy.
I'm male and egalitarian, but I see videos like this and just cringe, as it's far too emotive, don't make any real points, ignores the Bible and in general is a waste of time.
MattinatorHax 2 years ago
Challenge we face is exactly as Mr. Driscoll highlights -- men refuse to lead, women fill the vaccuum left by men's impotence (in life, not sex).
This is a matter, not of competence, but obedience. Women are obviously competent, capable, amazing. Imagine a world where men were obedient to lead courageously (and lovingly) and these amazing women's support enable even greater ministry than the tremendous service they provided. We shall never know until men stand up and be God's men!
vandal2nd 2 years ago
Bathsheba dictated Proverbs 31, the Virtous Woman chapter. So women can't preach from the pulpit, but a woman's words can be preached from the pulpit?
TFarache 2 years ago
Driscoll's point is the video you are responding to is not that women aren't important and cannot do great things. He is and has been stressing that men are failing to be men. I don't think the issue of women in leadership would be as much of an issue if men would simply be real men.
Yes, scripture clearly teaches a top level of male leadership in the home and in the church, but before they can be lead, guys have to be real men.
littlemas2 2 years ago
Your arguments don't really match up to Driscoll's because he actually uses the Bible and inerrant scripture to prove that women should not preach... you are using quotes and things that happened throughout history...and yes women dying for Christ is sad but God calls us to stand up for him no matter what. and it's not that women can't teach of Christ or evangelize but more they shouldn't be a head role in the church over men...
TheLastSkyline 2 years ago
This video does and absolute horrible job at making a point; although, I don't deny good intentions. It's simply that her objective has a void of Biblical evidence or directives (as shown in the Bible) from God. Her argument is that God is fine with women leading men and the church because they just so happen to be doing so. Sodom and Gamora could have used the very same argument to justify adultery and homosexuality. Please don't just use the culture to tell a Pastor he is wrong.
lethalgoose09 2 years ago
that depends our these churches working with women leading and my secound question is what if women shouldnt lead? would you listen to god or......fill in the blank
DeJay14 2 years ago
mark can be a little shall we say blunt,but his points are biblical,whatever your personal veiws on ladies in the church we should sumbit to the word of God,which if you are born again will be where you find your joy. we should all be wery that our own opinion is the voice of the rebellious nature saying my way,as the great song by casting crowns posted we must listen to the voice of truth,which is found in the authority of the Bible.
grace be with you
Paul
ACTS 26:18
THORVALHALLA42 2 years ago
You didn't use any real scripture. Just a bunch of quotes from MAN. Isaiah 2:22
mikeylogos 2 years ago
Note, the roles you mentioned are the result of the curse from the fall (Gen. 3:16).
Thus, the relationships men and women (more specifically, wives and husbands) have on earth now are not the way they were meant to be. Unfortunately, we have to put up with it until.... later.
umhbdrum 2 years ago
Very good.
I think Jesus had more women following him than men.
Probably still true...
ChooseCarefully 2 years ago
Bingo!
Well done!
craigque 2 years ago
I must add that I really do not agree with most of arguments women use to support their position. Even though I lean more towards women teaching, preaching and maybe leading with authority over them BUT it is disappointing to see there are so few who honestly approached the issue without forcing their opinion on the passages of the Scriptures.
Anyway, it was rather encouraging (and heart-breaking) video. Even though I do not agree with everything you say in your videos.
Bless you
masterowa 2 years ago
While we are all commenting on this video, people are dying and going to hell. Let all of us go and win them.
Lynnetta7 2 years ago 2
But can we? It is not that easy if we are to be despised by our brothers because we teach a man about the things of God.
If we truly believe in their interpretation of this passage we should not teach anyone - we are by nature easily deceived. It is therefore important issue.
Nevertheless, very wise comment. It should bring us all back to the heart of a matter.
masterowa 2 years ago
women can certainly lead. they have led the man..in secret...sincethebegining...sincethe woman is amystery to the man...she intrigrues him..she was made to be desirable to the man. meant...to untie him...inn more ways then one...sexually..loosehim...and spiritually cause him to seek answersfrom the lord...answers she already knows..a woman can teach a man..as a man can teach a woman.a goodman...knows this.the head of the man may be...god ...but wisdom isthe head ofthe woman.god n is wisdomaswell
mayreal13 2 years ago
What drivel. No one said women cannot "go". However God says they cannot teach. Stop listening to the world and start listening to the Bible.
Apparently you don't like being a woman. Well if God made you a woman, you'd better just get used to it and start fulfilling your role as a helper to those men God has put over you.
And can you please remove that awful music from the clip?
baptist1611 2 years ago
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mrbe5a1r 2 years ago
I'm a strict complimentarian. But I think your comments aren't Biblical here.
Most specifically, "You'd better get used to it and start fufilling your role as a helper to those God has put over you."
That sounds very negative and destructive. God didn't put men "over" women. Men are not superior to women. They are equal in essence, yet different in functions.
jamiew1010 2 years ago
It seems you are a confused young fellow. You don't like the word "over"? Well God used it in Genesis 3:16, saying her husband would, "rule over thee."
He also used the word with regards to church leadership in Hebrews 13:17, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:" (Hebrews 13:17)
Would you claim that it is "negative and destructive" for a church member to submit to his Pastor, or a citizen to sumbit to civil authority?
baptist1611 2 years ago
I said nothing about men being "superior" to women. Man simply has a role of authority and woman's role is subservience.
baptist1611 2 years ago
God has ordained that "ONLY MEN" are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church.(1 Timothy 2:11-14) Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The only activity women are restricted from is teaching men or having spiritual authority over them. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers.
dwoods828 2 years ago
Than he changed a lot since the Old Testament... or your interpretation of the passage is wrong... I wonder which one is more possible...
masterowa 2 years ago
Don't get me wrong. I do not agree with women being leaders without men over them. And teachers never were a final authority - there were people who tested what they say.
We know that women were teaching their sons (Proverbs), we know there was a prophetess teaching kings, Abigail rebuked David and Deborah led Israel.
I respect those who think women cannot teach if they do that from their love for Scriptures. But if it is simple legalism than it can be harmful.
masterowa 2 years ago
female preacher ------ NO!
ladyobaoba 2 years ago
I did NOT see one Bibical reference, because there isn't one for pastoring a church or leading a church. Women can be missionaries and martyrs, but according to God's Word, cannot lead a church.
mjpunk1234 2 years ago 13
I think when you have women preachers it is a wonderful power of God to use anyone for his glory in however He sees fit, through hIs ways, not ours through His truth , not mans translation of it no matter how sincere we may be. Let us be humble, Let us say, that if a woman is preaching, there is a man who is not worthy of that post.
aoghiroshima 1 year ago
@mjpunk1234 So St. Paul is a false teacher for saying that a Woman was a fellow apostle in his greetings? And the whole In Christ there is not Male or Female? This role busting thing is what? False?
friendlyear4u 1 year ago
@mjpunk1234 According to the gospels, the angels instructed the woman at the tomb to teach the central doctrine of the Christian church (the resurrection) to the male disciples who fled the scene. Anyone who says the Bible doesn't support women starting churches or teaching men hasn't read the STORY told in the bible. There would be no church without the woman apostles. It was a patriarchal society that treated men as slaves and women as property, but God put the real story in the narrative.
thekatephillips 1 year ago
Comment removed
mjpunk1234 1 year ago
@thekatephillips One of the duties or roles of a peacher or teacher is “speak and exhort and rebuke with all authority” (Titus 2:15, KJV), which is a direct violation of 1Tim 2:12. We want to be consistent with what Scripture tells us. With the understanding, we see in the examples of establishment of ministry for teachers, leaders and elders, were men 100% of the time. (Numbers 8:9-11, Numbers 27:16-18, 22-23, Acts 6:5-6, Acts 13:1-3; 14:4,14 and 1 Timothy 4:14)
mjpunk1234 1 year ago
@mjpunk1234 I want to emphasize my the above comment. The violation if giving or stating that women have as much authority as men do, in regards to leading the church. We see one of the roles of elders in Titus 2:15 is to do things with full authority, and we know that 1Tim 2:12 declares that women are NOT to have such authority. We can come to the conclusion that it is obvious women are not to lead the church due to lack of authority by God.
mjpunk1234 1 year ago
@mjpunk1234 Dude, I'll take what the angels say and how God chose to spread the news of the resurrection any day over what Paul says. Those texts went through over 300 years of heavy editing by the men in charge before we got the first version of "the Bible," which continued to be edited when the people in charge didn't like what it said. (Don't believe me? Find a Catholic bible - an older version - and compare.) That's why the narrative of the story is so important.
thekatephillips 1 year ago
@thekatephillips That is HERESY, this is your first admonition to repent! If you do not, I will dust the sand off my feet and you will answer to God on Judgement Day, and His wrath.
SERVANTofYHVH 1 year ago
@mjpunk1234 This is actually completely not true. Priscilla and Aquila were full partners in ministry, and many scholars believe Priscilla to be the true author of Hebrews. (Of course, her name was obscured later because the men couldn't handle it...) And women are leaders in many instances in the bible, whether Paul liked it or not.
thekatephillips 1 year ago
@thekatephillips C'mon now. Why do you say, "whether Paul liked it or not"? Is the whole Bible inerrant, inspired by God or not? We CANNOT pick and choose, white-out what we don't want to see in God's Holy Bible. It's there, and we need to deal with it as the Truth it is instead of starting crap about it. Paul as 'male chauvenist pig" was the In Thing in the 70s but we've all grown up since then. =)
ariadne12345 1 year ago 7
@thekatephillips 1 Timothy 2:11-12 — "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." In statements from Paul like the above and others, Paul was following the order of authority which God set forth. Which is CHRIST > MAN > WOMEN. In the Word of God, the NT Elders are defined as being males — “the husband of but one wife” (1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6).
mjpunk1234 1 year ago
What is wrong with men being men and women being women? I haven't yet heard Driscoll say anything about oppressing or silencing or thwarting women? Why is everyone attacking Driscoll?
jbooks888 2 years ago 3
I can't believe that feminism reached the church.
This sort of made for women-feminist videos are very unpleasant, they only promote divisions by attempting to change church's way of thinking.
Please don't follow cultural movements leaded by ungodly people... Moreover, you are refuting a straw man, for we never said that women may not evangelize or to be a missionary (that is anti biblical), but, as it is written, they may not preach as pastors do. Simply that. Just accept what bible says
AlexFigueroa 2 years ago
A "Jezebel" spirit has attached itself to what was intended to be a fight for women's civil rights. What has happened is that most Christian men in this country have become like Jezebel's husband Ahab -- they fear women more than they fear God!
mrbe5a1r 2 years ago
Did you even listen to what Mark Driscoll said? Women can be martyrs and missionaries, they can plant churches. THEY CANNOT PREACH! This is in the bible, you should read it. Learn someone's doctrine before you attack it next time.
glistergirl 2 years ago 2
I really don't know if you understand Driscoll's position. Or the complimentarian position at large.
Also, don't use music when trying to make arguments... It just shows youre driven by emotion rather than logic.
jamiew1010 2 years ago 3
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mrbe5a1r 2 years ago
hes not right about anything so whu would he be right about women!
brentazzz 2 years ago
Why dont you two get a room already, geez. This is not bible study ladies lmfao.
kaiyeem 2 years ago
Curious that you believe that the Word was there from the beginning..something proclaimed by John in the Bible..what if that translation was inaccurate? Or was added at a later date? Then your stance falls apart, doesn't it? hmm.. With all of that said, there are many things I am sure we would disagree on, but our common ground is Jesus, His death, and His resurrection..by which we will all get to meet in eternity someday and laugh off the ridiculousness of our "logical perceptions" :) ..
j10slap 3 years ago
The idea of The Word does not belong to John. It is common to most Semitic religious texts when expounding creation. The Word means the Action of God. The Action of God is His boundless Love and the resultant "actions" of that Love, which is perfect in every way. It does not refer to The Bible. I cannot imagine God supporting certain views, punishments, and tortures recommended by His fallible scribes who were prone to error as well as to virtue and goodness.
nicksum29 3 years ago
And yes, without a doubt, I am sure we'll have a good old giggle about our biblical niggles in a Brighter Setting in times to come.
Pax
nicksum29 3 years ago
Cont. In addition-
If you look at scripture- like Corinthians- where women who came to Christ were prior prostitutes and other like occupations, it was a huge distraction, temptation, and downfall to the men and boys of the "church". It's a matter of loving our brothers enough not to distract or deter. I still believe there are times I deliver better messages then other men my age, but it's glory to God and not to me-but when I start getting caught up in this argument, nothing holy comes of it.
mandiejoy8 3 years ago
Here's the thing- I've wrestled with this for a long time since I am called to be in full time ministry and I am a woman. It's not that women CAN'T, or that they don't do as good of a job as men... the quotes you pulled are from men who were right in theology but had a terrible view of women because of their society and culture at the time. It's not a matter of not being able to do it well (I repeat), it's a matter of the ability of the people in the flock to want to follow...
mandiejoy8 3 years ago
..contd.. YOU clearly think its been altered, is outdated, and question it being infallible, which is your own belief. The problem is, your beliefs now have an eternity of holes and questions that will never be answered. You mention that the scriptures are based on "the needs of the time", but what you are forgetting brother, is that the needs of that time, this time, and all time are the same. The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their issues then (addressed by God through Paul etc) are ours now still..
j10slap 3 years ago
Knowing that scripture is not infallible is not a belief, it is a blatant and beautiful fact. The list of Paul's questionable anti-woman rants, and the amount of biblical misogyny leads me to believe that scriptures (including both canonised and apocryphal ones) must be read with a guiding light that is not The Bible, but a Spirit (you know Him well, hopefully) that is more living than a book (any book). You would do well to remember that it is the Gospel OF Jesus, not BY Him.
nicksum29 3 years ago
One more thing. I adore the Pauline writings, and love the Gospels. But there is no way that I am going to be goaded into considering these documents the Alpha and Omega of The Word. At best, biblical scriptures are an introductory love letter to The Word - something that was already extant in The Beginning.
nicksum29 3 years ago
Very good points, and many certain truths. I will end this conversation by saying that it is my full belief that while humanity is fallen, God is sovereign and His will, will be done. I believe that He inspired and produced the Bible for many reasons, one of which being the love letter that you mentioned. Yes, Nicea produced the "Bible" but by God's will. The Bible is altogether the most amazing document that connects in more ways than any human will ever understand (or could've produced)
j10slap 3 years ago 2
God's will won't be done in every case. "Thy will be done" is a plea, not a certainty. That is the meaning of existence: our choice to allow God's will to manifest. Either we choose our will, or we choose His. Nicea was not, in my opinion, the "will" of God - it resulted in the idea of heresy, and the genocide(s) that followed. God's will is connected to His Word. His Word is His action in our lives, once we ask for it. The Bible is his will "through a glass darkly".
nicksum29 3 years ago