bizarre Mormon apology part 2

[ffchatter]

what. of course gandalf and middle earth is real. the newest and best religion is being a jedi

[DrTerminus]

In reading your video description, the first phrase shows me that we're dealing with an Ignoramus First Class: "bizarre apology in the world of Mormonism." The word you're looking for is "apologetics" which is different than "apology." "Farms?" Barnyard, animals, what are you talking about? "quarum of 12" -- what's that?

If you want to know about Mormons, study their doctrine for crying out loud! lds.org

(And please, go brush up on your English and grammar skills.

[GiftoAll]

Joseph knew he could make alot more money on tithing than trying to sell disappearing gold plates.

[IExposeMormonism]

I have 4 lead bricks, just like red bricks. They weigh approx 40 lbs ea. And if the size of the gold plates would weigh at least 200 lbs Whats a brick size? approx 4x2x8?

[IExposeMormonism]

@IExposeMormonism The lead bricks weigh 26 lbs each. If you give all the slack one can give Mormonism you get 55lbs. running any distance with Any weight is an issue. much less 55 lbs for 2-3 miles. I posted "Fat Guy runs with 50lbs of Gold".

[ExmormonFoundation]

Way to "experiment upon their words", this is great! It's like debating people who believe in Middle Earth as a real place, replete with Orks, Hobbits and Elves. You should do a video on their belief that the Sun gets its light from Kolob as stated in the Book of Abraham if the defense of the Book of Mormon fantasy ever begins to wear thin. And to think we believed and sold this nonsense door to door? Ugh. Keep up the great work! :)

[AcademicTheologian]

Marines have to run 5 miles with 80 lbs on their back. What is your point?

[oldieschick6]

chadandbarby: You sound like just another bitter

excommunicated ex-mormon. Too prideful aren't you.

[chadandbarby]

come on man, I'm smokin a pipe...and I like to read. Not a mormon. I'm laughing right now.

[CIRELUX]

can I have a link to site at 6:11 7:33

I want to get the same Q that you read. :)

[freedombolt]

I assume the tomato experiment was to prove that air volume would not have been present under that much weight? When you construct a book from hand hewn tin, made to the dimensions and thickness described by Joseph Smith and then put your 70LBS on top of it we'll see how compacted it becomes. Even then it's a faulty expirement. Obviously the pages at the bottom, bearing the full weight of the pages above would be more compacted than the upper ones in the book. See Ensign Dec 1986, Pg 64-65.

[chadandbarby]

the experiment was to show how heavy that weight is. I will leave it up to you to read the accounts of how this weight was tossed around like a load of school books. You are right about the pages. I hope you can see how I tried to be impartial in presenting the arguments.

[mormonanswerman]

TESTIMONY OF 8 WITNESSES

Be it known unto all nations,... Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; ...Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken.

I think you made a mistake. There are witnesses, so figure it out.

[chadandbarby]

hold on. ...witnesses that all recanted the testimony...oh but came back when they discovered the only thing they were good at was being an important Mormon.

[Bidimus1]

Or near death and very low on cash.

[omiolo]

if it makes you feel better your videos are getting less ridiculous!

[chadandbarby]

thanks, I'm glad you approve.

[omiolo]

My favorite part is how you have to prejudice everything while and before you present the evidence. As if you are afraid that the evidence will too strongly overweigh your criticism!

[omiolo]

I put the golden plates between 48-60 lbs.

Whatever the weight was it was light enough for a woman to move while housekeeping!

[chadandbarby]

any weight you like I guess.

[omiolo]

"any weight you like I guess."

I guess that is better than avoiding ALL first hand accounts!!

[HiveRadical]

...I mean why go through any of the complications found throughout the Abrahamic tradition? Certainly if getting us to just know something was the goal God would be capable to make it known. But like so many you start from a completely false premise, it's the same premise that has atheists and agnostics and even many in the Judeo-Christian tradition look at divinely commanded genocide and say "Ummmm... I don't know about that..." or "What the... (use your imagination)!!!" It's as simple as GIGO.

[chadandbarby]

what if I accused you of starting with a false premise. your video depicting mitochondrial DNA research starts with a present generation to ascertain ancient characteristics. I'm not sure if you know, but one can test ancient remains as well. We are not limited to taking swabs from present day messoamericans. either way DNA proves that Hebrew people did not populate the Americas. That is why the Smithsonian and National Geographic and all of the others are not on board.

[HiveRadical]

We can't test Lehi just as we can't test Abraham. We can tie knowns to knowns. But being able to test ancient DNA only helps if you have ties to that ancient DNA. Regardless none of this changes the fact that the markers are only telling us what are found in two ancestral lines. Go back a mere generation and you have the possibility for up to over one million DIFFERENT ANCESTRAL LINES for a single individual, and you think knowing two of those means we know them all?

[chadandbarby]

so if I have Mel Brooks next to Pocahantas you are going to say that the possibilities are one million and all the same probability? No, possibility and probability are two different things.

[HiveRadical]

I agree possibility and probability are two different things. But probability, after the fact, is irrelevant. After something happened whatever it's probability was measured at at whatever point previous is irrelevant because in some measure of time it jumped from very slight to certain. What's ultimately important is plausibility/possibility. If probability is sufficient to throw things out then re-evaluate your perspective on Newton or Shakespear, or the prelude to abiogenesis.

[HiveRadical]

The absence of the plates in plane view is irrelevant. You need to look at the purpose behind having a translation process, behind why God would convey a record as such to the world. When the whole context is considered it's not absurd.

Consider this. God wants something communicated to humans in the form of a book, if that's all he wants then an omniscient omnipotent being would simply place that book in easy reach and give a firm means of assuring people that it was from him...

[chadandbarby]

...but gold plates make a better story.

[HiveRadical]

There's more functional reasons behind it than merely making "a better story"

[HiveRadical]

Correction, while the Seer Stone was a kind of 'Urim and Thummim' and was used in the translation via placing it in the hat and looking into it. The Urim and Thummim (Hebrew words for Lights and Perfections respectively), was a silver bow with two transparent discs in them, it was kept in the breast plate that was obtained with them.

[chadandbarby]

that was tried in the old testament...right before consulting a witch. how bizarre.

[HiveRadical]

I don't hate the journal of discourses.

And that verse, when brought up by critics, is taken out of the context that it's clearly placed in by Brigham Young, namely that those who are able to exercise it in this life, and don't, are the ones who will not be able to obtain Godhood.

[chadandbarby]

great, then read up. it's full of strange things. how about those moon people.

[HiveRadical]

The moon people claim is based on one telling from a man who shared it several decades after Joseph Smith had died. If that's all you have to have to prove something was said by someone then most great historical figures should have a great deal more attributed to them than what present historians attribute to them.

[HiveRadical]

The "moon people" account is taken from one person's account that wasn't shared with anyone who recorded it 'till some several decades after Joseph had died.

If that's a sufficient way of attributing words to a person than many many people have said far more than is presently attributed to them by professional historians.

[chadandbarby]

didn't b. young talk about this. Isn't he the source of this account of what Smith said...or was that about the sun people.

[omiolo]

"how about those moon people. "

yes, the quakers on the moon. An important ANTImormon doctrine!

[chadandbarby]

There is DNA evidence that the moon people are related to the sun people

[HiveRadical]

Do you believe that the only kind of life possible in the universe is carbon based life? Or life potentially proceeding from that? Do you see no chance of intelligences and living systems existing outside of our construct of life?

[chadandbarby]

In the last 900 years or so we have gone from thinking the universe revolved around us to sending a satillite into space to take pictures of radiation to tell us the age of the universe. This is not too bad for some carbon based monkeys. There is no way one can be confined by present scientific discovery, but at some point you have to admit to something in front of your nose. ..so I'm not an atheist, but I don't have a mental block on information either.

[HiveRadical]

The cloth was covering it, not supporting it.

[chadandbarby]

enen more spectacular

[HiveRadical]

The man was physically capable, far more than the average man, and the assumptions of a pure gold content and pure density, as well as the assumption of the plates retaining a structural nature akin to that of unalloyed gold are all untenable assumptions. Your argument is as simplistic as those who look at the hole in the pentagon and say "it's not big enough"

[chadandbarby]

pure density maybe not, but 40% air and downgrading it to an alloy of the smallest Karat? someone get real. I think that it is bizarre from both sides to be honest.

[HiveRadical]

The interesting thing about metals and alloys and the method of putting them together is that there are all sorts of combinations that you can do and a wide range of structural, substructural and density properties you can obtain. Metallurgy is not some simple science. Alloy combinations as well as the crystal structures and the lattice arrangements all can significantly alter the outward appearance and properties of alloys.

[HiveRadical]

An interesting thing with metallurgy is that there've been Metallurgical Ph.D's that felt they were sufficiently steeped in the theory that they would endeavor to complete rather simple smithing tasks in well equipped lab settings only to discover (the case I'm familiar with this discovery was in the presence of their students) they were unable to even complete simple metallurgical tasks. Metallurgical evidence, as with the DNA evidence, has far more nuance than the general populace realizes.

[chadandbarby]

well there you go. You didn't mean to do it, but you just illustrated how complicated metallurgy is. Now it is so easy to see how these swords and all were made, used, and remained in some sort of hidden vacuum. DNA nuance or not, there is a reason why people at BYU conflict with non LDS scientists. Take the Smithsonian for example...or other organizations..you choose.

[HiveRadical]

You miss the point entirely. I very much meant to demonstrate how complicated metallurgy is. It's simplistic simple minded conclusions that lead to the critic's position, there's no nuance or real understanding of metallurgy in what they proclaim either about the gold plates or the use of swords.

[HiveRadical]

Joseph Smith's upper body strength was phenomenal. He was on crutches for much of the time he was growing up and he retained his exceptional upper body strength throughout his life as is evidenced in the 'stick-pull' game he would often play, regularly he would flip men significantly larger than himself over his body.

[chadandbarby]

I'll indicate that Smith was also a Judo master in my next video.

[omiolo]

"I'll indicate that Smith was also a Judo master in my next video."

Or how about a poor farm boy that made his living busting his back?

I think for your next video you should spend your mornings pulling a plow, your days sawing and splitting wood, and your evenings digging ditches. Do that for 12 years, 6 days a week.

Then we shall test how much weight you can run with!