"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5: 11,12
- Some want to prove Jesus was not crucified. Ok, prove this 'that He is not living now'. It would be like saying someone sitting among us is a dead person!
Allah سبحانه وتعلى blessed us with Munazir ul Islam Sayyidunaa Ahmad Hussein Deedat رضي الله عنه who destroyed the Kuffar عليهم لعنة with his humour and wisdom.
Allah سبحانه وتعلى grant him Jannatul Firdous. Ameen
must see the Father doing it. He then says, "for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."
Now, please tell me what prophet EVER having simply SEEN what the Father does would say that he to could do it? Jesus just made a claim of deity right there my friend. Anything he sees the Father do, he can do! But perhaps the Father shows him limited things? Jesus says, "20For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing"
Jesus just told you that he can do NOTHING himself UNLESS he sees the Father do it and the Father shows him ALL things. Thus, Jesus has just claimed that he can do all things.
THAT is the CONTEXT of the verse you quoted my friend. Jesus never claimed the inability to do anything. He claimed that what he can do (all things) comes from him seeing the Father do it. Why? Because they are ONE (john 10:30).
@jorsak ok, I'll believe what you said, so, in accordance with that Jesus pbuh can do ANYTHING and knows EVERYTHING, but in Mark 13:32 : But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father. Here, he clearly and explicitely says that even the son don't know about the time of the day of Judgement, so how can he be a god, if he doesn't know such a thing, and of course,the fondamentals to be a God, is the omnipotence & the omniscience
Furthermore, in Mark 11:13 : And seeing a fig tree afar of having leaves, he came if happily he might find any thing there on : and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, FOR THE TIME OF FIGS WAS NOT YET.
He didn't even know the season when a fig tree will give fruits, and he got so angry he ordered to take it down, so he became angry because it wasn't the season when the tree shall give fruits ? did he forget that he is (as supposed) the creator of it ?
@jorsak and he made the law of nature ? so here, it shows clearly that he wasn't omniscient, and he didn't know everything, which is a pure human thing.
Last but not least, Mark 1:13 : Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan. Can you imagine a "GOD" being tempted by the Devil ?
@1bacsceco The Father shows the son all things. God the Father has revealed all things to the son. The son created all (John 1:1-3). Shows nothing to do with a lack of omniscience.
And you, much like Mr. Deedat, are making the mistake of an argument devoid of the Christian understanding of who the Messiah is. The Messiah is both FULLY human and FULLY God. This is plainly stated (Isaiah 9:6, Phil. 2:5-7).
It was Jesus, the fully human being, who was tempted by Satan. Not God.
@jorsak no, i'm really not making an argument devoid of the Christian understanding, I'm just saying what Jesus PBUH said, and he said clearly that he doesn't know the time of the Last Day, and it's said clearly that he wanted fruits from the tree, but because it wasn't the season, which is very normal and very human, he didn't find them. and from christian perspective, Jesus was fully human and fully God, as you just said, and their more than equal, they're the same,
@jorsak so if the heavenly Father knows father, Jesus MUST know it, which is not the case here; furthermore, i don't understand when you say "the fully human being who was tempted by Satan", because from Christian view and for everybody, Jesus was not schisophrenic, he was God incarnated in mankind and who lived among them, so they were both (human and God) living, knowing and DOING the same thing, so in those forty days, both human and God were tempted.
@jorsak and to clarify a point, if the Trinity make only one and only God, and you think that they're equal and the same, why would the Son need the teachings of the Father ? if he's God, he must know everything, you can't teach God something, His knowledge is limitless, especially if they are the same, it's like he was teaching Himself which is absurd.
@1bacsceco Sorry, so many points to address that some get missed. I apologize. I need to clarify a couple points of Christian theology for you here as there are some misunderstandings that are causing difficulty.
#1. Christian doctrine teaches us that the Father and Son are one (as Husband and wife are). He is one being (God) in three persons; one marriage in two persons. This is a VERY important distinction. Father is NOT the Son and Son is NOT the Father.
#2. The deity of the Christ never intermingles with his Humanity. It is impossible to be fully human if the human was intermingled with God. The two natures do not mix but are within the consciousness of the human. Consider the example of RAM (Random access memory) and ROM (Read only memory). The human mind (RAM) is unable to continue the infinite memory (ROM) of God. God the Son has all knowledge (ROM) and allows the access of this knowledge to the human Jesus (RAM) at the will of (Cont.)
God the son. Thus the human Jesus's mind grows in wisdom as a normal human would (Luke 2:52). God is unable to be tempted as God is in need of nothing but the human Jesus is fully human and has needs of the flesh as all humans do and consequently can be tempted.
Thus, a fig tree can be without figs and Jesus goes to see if it has figs and finds none. Thus, it is no problem for the human Jesus to experience a lack of knowledge in a subject because God the Son so no need or there was a (cont.)
lesson for the Human Jesus to grow in wisdom over or to share with his disciples which was actually the case with the Fig tree.
I wanted to clarify those two points because I saw a whole line of questioning that seemed to be answered if I could clarify the two. I hope that helps.
@jorsak I'm sorry, but it makes no sense when you say, Father is NOT the Son, and the Son is not the father, but, he is one being, it's either the same God and what I said before still hold, or there are 3 gods because they are not the same. because if you say that there is only one being (God) in three persons, the 3 of them must have the same knowledge and power, which is not the case, John: 5:30 : I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. so the only "logical" answer left is, there are 3 gods
@1bacsceco Husband is not the wife and wife is not the husband. Both are FULLY married and yet there is ONE marriage and in that union they are one. Same applies to God and it makes complete sense to me.
And if you are ONE how can you do anything other than what you do. The son could do nothing separately from the Father. They are ONE.
Read what he told you at the OUTSET the BEGINNING of his statement rather than pick a single verse at the end to draw your conclusions from. (cont.)
Read this closely and carefully and tell me that a mere prophet would EVER make such a statement. Honestly!
"Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things THE SON ALSO DOES IN LIKE MANNER." -John 5:19.
He is giving you CLARITY on the verse you keep referring to (5:30). Rather than just saying I can do nothing as you point to he is giving you CONTEXT.
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,"
WHAT PROPHET would EVER make such a statement?!?! The Son gives life... LIFE... to WHOMEVER HE WISHES. The Father will not judge your heart and the sins you and I have committed. JESUS SAID that HE would be the one to do that. How does a mere prophet (cont.)
have the power to know all your past sins and perform judgment of those sins? That is a GOD ONLY ability. And then, even more, Jesus tells you WHY this is the case. "23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father."
My friend, you may "honor" Jesus but I assure you that NO Muslim would ever assert that they honor Jesus "EVEN" (EQUAL) "AS they honor the Father."
Jesus never separates his will from his Father. He does NOTHING apart from his Father. WHY? (Cont.)
He does nothing apart from his Father because he is in perfect harmony and oneness with the Father. It is impossible for him to do anything apart from the other because they are ONE.
Let's try, as much as is possible, to stick to one point at a time. Bringing up spurious arguments like "the word trinity" is no where in the bible really helps or proves nothing. The word Qur'an is not in the Bible either. Can I safely conclude then that the Qur'an is False?
@jorsak first of all, comparing the Father and the Son with a married couple is unthinkable, God is uncomparable, even if you do so because you want me to understand what you mean, sorry but you can't compare Him with anything, that's a blasphemy in our religion.
about giving life, in Islam we believe that Jesus PBUH was able to raise people from the dead BY GOD'S WILL, we also believe that he could create something like a bird from clay, he blew in it, then the bird flew away,
yes we honor Jesus, we believe that he is one of the mightiest prophet's, but no muslim worships him.
the inexistence of the word "Trinity" proves that if it was real, it would be at least mentioned, such an important thing must be in at least one of the gospels, come on, it's one of the fondamentals of Christianity. the word Qur'an is not in the Bible but it is in several places in the Qur'an, but the word Bible is no where in the Bible
@1bacsceco We're just going round and round. God would be unable to give a mere human prophet permission to judge the sins of all human hearts. That "permission" would require God's omniscience to rightly judge the sin. That argument does not stand.
I've already said all I have to say here and in our other conversations. The Bible is incorruptible if God is God. You state that God never promised as such in the Bible. Psalm 12:6-7 states plainly that he would.
@jorsak Then why do your scholars revise the Bible, till now, the Bible had 5 MAJOR REVISIONS, and why from time to time, they say that this or that verse, is a fabrication and a concoction and is thrown out ? a true word of God shouldn't be revised, don't you agree? and a true word of God shoudn't have any human fabrication, yes or no ?
we as muslims, we believe that the Bible is the word of God, but we also believe that it was corrupted, so we can't trust in it even if it contains some
@1bacsceco You crack me up with this FIVE MAJOR REVISIONS thing. No. There have not been five major revisions. There are 24,000+ manuscripts in 15+ languages and there have been translations of those manuscripts throughout history. There has NEVER from the foundation of the church been any change in the consistent belief of the deity of Christ, salvation through his death, burial, and resurrection, the requirements of the law, the prophets, or otherwise.
In fact, in the entire HISTORY of the New Testaments 7,958 verses, there are a grand total of 18-40 verses that are QUESTIONED depending on which group of scholars you talk to. EVEN AT 40 verses, that represents .005% of the verses.
You can rest your eternal salvation on .005% if you want. For me, it's just plain silly.
God's word cannot be corrupted. God cannot be thwarted by man. Simple.
@jorsak about the 24000 manuscripts, did you know that no two are identical ? and when talking about a God's word, there should be NONE, 0 verse questioned, 0,0000001% is sufficient to prove that the entire book is not of God, and i'm not depending on the .005%, i'm depending on the 100% correct verses of the Qur'an.
God's word CAN be corrupted, if it can't, then why are there verses QUESTIONED ?
@1bacsceco I'm uncertain why my response isn't showing up. I happened to check it just looking at responses and noted that it wasn't there. So, my apologies. I'm reposting.
#1. you state, "about the 24000 manuscripts, did you know that no two are identical?" This is an often stated argument from Deedat and it's a bit funny because while it is a true statement no intellectually honest person would make this argument from a standpoint of questioning the credibility of the document.(cont.)
What do I mean by that? I mean that the 24,000+ copies are in 15+ different languages written by hand. So, OF COURSE, no two are identical. This is a typical parlor trick type argument of Deedat's. I will not argue against you and say they are identical because of that fact.
However, what are their differences? Are they truly different MESSAGES? NO! The "differences" are spelling, punctuation, an illegible word or phrase because of the age of the document. The content is 100% (Cont.)
the same. There is no single doctrine or teaching called into question because of spelling, grammar, or a missing verse.
#2. Once again, these are COPIES of the original texts. Scribal notation in the copying process has lead to the questioned 18-40 verses that I mentioned. It is not a question of whether God's word has been corrupted but of intellectual honesty in admitting these verses or notations as suspect of being included in the text. Once again, this is simply an HONEST (cont.)
#3. You say you want replay on the 100% accurate Qur'an but how do you know that. Uthman burned texts. You have NOTHING of the "original" writings. Research the hafsah codex. You will find that she protected with her life the collected writings that she had and these were later BURNED. Now, either she had uncorrupted text from Allah that she saved and Uthman saw fit to burn it or she had corrupted text. At any rate, you have NOTHING of the original. You have copies.
#4. And what do those copies say? They say that the law of God revealed by Moses is a lie. (The law requires sacrifice for sin). They say that the prophets of God are a lie. (The prophets foretell of the coming Messiahs role to be that sacrifice) and they say that the Messiah of God is a liar. (The Messiah said repeatedly that he came to die and specifically die for the sins of many.)
Your book contradicts the previously revealed word of God and thus must be rejected.
@jorsak which is not monotheistic as christianity claim to be.
NB: When the Bible speaks about Jesus' life and experiences, it never says the human Jesus did, or the God Jesus did, it only says, Jesus. So I don't know why you (christians) whenever it concerns some human experience (the tree, praying, eating, sleeping, crying...) say it only concerns the human part, while the Bible only say Jesus, who is from christian perspective, God incarnated in human being, so actually, it was the God
@jorsak who was experiencing and living, and you say He did that, so He can understand the human weaknesses. and as long as I know, Jesus was not part of the time God and part of the time human, he was both at all time.
PS : another problem with christianity, God doesn't need to live as a human to understand their weaknesses, He created us, He knows them before Adam was created. see, the concept of Trinity has so much contradictions that the mind can't accept it, not mentioning that
@jorsak the word "Trinity" does not figure not ONCE in the whole Bible, and in all the versions, but actually it does in the Qur'an : 4:171 : People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—
@jorsak and take it as an advice for me, u should consider the truthfulness of the Bible, it contains countless number of contradictions and absurdities, pornography, incest... that any normal mind shall c that it can't be from God, we muslims believe that it contains some of the words of God, but it contains also human words so it can't be reliable, plz don't think I'm saying that because I hate Christianity or because I wanna insult it, but because I want u to c the truth, give Islam a chance
Yahshua will Judge Jews (his family) Christians (those who did and claimed to follow Jesus) Muslims fake monotheists Rev. 2:9 they wanted to be the real monotheists but are of the house of Satan. John 16:2 describes them to the T, and he propnesied about Muslims 600 years before Islam!
Islam is-lame and Allah is A-lie! Remember this and you will not be intimidated by this fallible religion, of the usurpation of Judaism, arabs envied the Jews and Christians, they were enemies of both for centuries even millenias before Muhammad, muhammad just played fire with fore by corrupting the imagery of the One God in Language and behavior!
i feel sorry for these priests..they got so humilated against such a knowledgable brother Mr. Ahmed Deedat. May Allah reward him for all the good deeds he has done.
I wish that rev. Erik was with more knowledge and with better language, then the debate would have been much better and much beneficial to all of us....
listen some of u brother say that mary is the daughter of god but how can she be the daughter of god and the mother of god that confuses me very much all 1 person said god needed jesus and jesus was with god. but brother god , HE is Allah, The One and Only, Allah the Eternal, The Absolute; HE begets not, nor is HE begotten and there is none like unto Him. no that a definition of god
I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
This is the ONLY place in the Bible where Jesus himself CLEARLY says .. he has done his work. He said this BEFORE the so called crucifiction. Hnece Jesus work was NOT TO DIE for anyone sins.
The statement is absolute. This rejects all claims of christians.
The point is that Muhammad removed all the idols except 1. The one which was called Allah. But the other one called Allat, the femaled version, he took out with the rest of the 300 idols. Why did he leave the one called Allah in there?
because allah is the arabic word for god. it was used before mohamad by arab christians for hundreds of years. in syrian aramaic ( jesus' language) the word for god is aloho. allah is derived from that
mashallah.... a true speech by Mr.Ahmed Deedat.... and i hope the speech was very clear with all references and he made his point clear.....May Allah grand him Jannah...Amin
do they not stop and think for a little what they are actually following or believeing ect
im not hating on anyone here but i find it crazy how chirstians still follow a mangod and man written book that has many contradictions, errors and doesnt make sense.
like deedat said, god is not the author of confusion.
peace and blessing be upon you all
and i hope people see the light, truth, peace that is
The reason why is simple and I also am not saying this to "hate" on anyone. The objections brought up by Mr. Deedat are and have been easily answered for centuries.
Deedat makes simple theological errors of understanding regarding teh Christian faith that create his numerous contrasdictions. The argumentation tactic is called "Strawman argument."
IE. What Mr. Deedat does not apparently know about Christianity is that since the foundation of the faith it has been taught that
Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Pelase read the following from scripture which plainly states this: 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God,
(Here it is plainly stated that Jesus is in very nature God)
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
(Here it is plainly stated that he took on Human form.)
I do not say that lightly or ill-informed. I have watched hundreds of his videos here on you tube and I know that he can quote long passages from the scrtiptures that he is ready to debate which are the commons points of issue (IE. John 10:30).
However, he uses as example Jesus crying out on the Cross, "Eloi, Eloi, Lama sabacthani." or "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me." as an example of Jesus not being God. Why would Jesus cry out to himself he asks.
The whole time not knowing that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 which is a Messianic Psalm. Please read it and compare it to the scene at the cross. There are NUMEROUS passages that were fulfilled by Jesus alone.
Read closely these passages specifically:
16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encurecled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
(Clearly referencing the crucifixion)
17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
i am sorry but you canot explain what does not exist. There is NO TRINITY... and hence their is no fullu man and yet fully god. It is a lie and a delusion.
Jesus was a man and refered himself ot son of a man. GOD CANT BE A MAN NOR SON OF A MAN.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?", Numbers 23:19
It's good to see you here again. I have not seen you in some time and I myself have been extremely busy with very little time to post.
"i am sorry but you canot explain what does not exist. There is NO TRINITY"
I understand that this is your sincerely held belief, but it is NOT what scripture states.
As there are many examples, Philippians 2:5-6 states plainly, "5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God,"
It is very simple. Very clear. Thus, it is NOT a lie nor a delusion.
You correctly identified Jesus' most common title for himself "Son of Man" but I believe are perhaps not familiar with WHY he called himself that. He specifically used that title because of the prophetic vision that Daniel had of the Messiah in Daniel 7:13-14. It is yet another reference to divinity made by Jesus. Jesus specifically connects his title with Daniel in a number of places. (IE. Luke 21:27.)
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"
The prophet Balaam had (as God had commanded him to do) pronounced a BLESSING on Israel. The King Balak had wanted him to curse Israel.
Balaam's response was that God is not a man THAT HE SHOULD LIE.
And the ultimate proof that this passage has NOTHING to do with God's inability to take on human form is seen in the very next (cont.)
"20 I have received a command to bless; he has blessed, and I cannot change it. "
The passage does not deny God's ability to control all the molecules within his creation, form them into a human, and use that form to walk amongst man; speaking to his creation.
The verse has NOTHING to do with God being or not being a man. It speaks quite simply, and quite clearly, about God's inability to SIN by lying.
What Letmesee74 said is true the trinity does not exist in the Bible. Instead of quoting Jesus you quoted Paul. And Paul is the author of majority of the NT. But to go with what you quoted, You said Phil 2:5-6 saying that this is the Trinity. The word trinity is not in that verse or ANY verse of the Bible. second it talks about Jesus where is the holy spirit and the father? W/o the holy spirit and father there is no trinity. So even this verse does not talk about a trinity.
And you quote Mohamed. your point? You believe Paul was NOT a prophet of God. Please, make the argument and demonstarte that he is not. Careful as each arguemtn you make will fall doubly against Mohamed.
Paul is a prophet of God and is in complete agreement with Jesus.
The word TRINITY and its appearance in the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus is God. It is a word used to DESCRIBE what is seen in scripture.
brother,the oneness that im getting from you is that you are comparing the oneness of allah to the oneness of humans, that is unthinkable all im saying is that campare marriage to anything but not to allah, because marriage to you is 2 becoming one,BUT,THE ONENESS OF ALLAH IS UNLIKE THE ONENESS OF HUMAN BEINGS BECAUSE ALLAH IS (THE ONE) AND NOTHING IS LIKE HIM,THAT IS WHAT IAM TRYING TO SAY, IF WE TRY TO GET CLOSER TO GOD THROUGH THESE MEANS ITS WRONG, BUT THROUGH GOOD DEEDS AND PRAYERS IS A YES
You can assert that all you want my friend but that analogy is not mine it is Gods. For just as God declared Man and wife Echad so too he states of himself that he is Echad.
It is HIS WORDS not mine.
Husband and wife are ONE marriage. The husband is fully married and the wife is fully married each are separately fully married. Yet, there is only one marriage.
Just the same with God. The Father is fully God as is the Son and Holy Spirit. Yet there is only ONE GOD. Echad. One.
husband and wife are 2 persons 2 seprate ways and lifestyles and apperances there marriage brings them together but doesnt mean they are 1 becuase if u see 2 ppl random on the street ur gonna say hey those are 2 ppl 2 different ppl. just as if you saw 2 pictures from a famous painter are you gonna say those pictures are one if they are completly different when there creator has made for them differences for you to recgonize.
Husband and wife are two separate beings. Yes. Just as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings. However, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit form ONE god just as Husband and wife for ONE marriage.
Husband and wife are each FULLY and separately married. The Husband is fully married as is the wife. Yet, if either of them were not present there would be NO marriage.
This is THE SAME with God. The Father is fully God as is the Son and the Holy Spirit. If any of them were not
in hindsight that sounds logical but u 4got the most important part of the trinity. they all have to agree coz they are all the same person. in a marriage people dnt agree and its not a perfect circle. so dont compare. mind u if they all agree and all are the same then how come onli 2 out of the 4 gospels is the birth of jesus mentioned. did the holy ghost forget to mention the most fundamental part of Christianity to mark and john. even matthew luke dont agree on the birth
The only aspects of the comparison of marriage and the unity in marriage that fail in comparison of the unity in God fail only because of our humanity.
In other words, My wife and I WOULD be in perfect agreement if we perfectly operated in love at all times. But we do not. We are human. We screw up. Only the trappings of our flesh make the analogy faulty.
Humans can and do divorce because of sin. God does not divorce. Etc.
The most important aspect of Christianity is NOT the details of
the Messiahs birth. The most important aspect is his death and resurrection. It is THAT that all focus on and preach about. In Christianity his death and resurrection mean eternal life for all who believe.
Obviously if he was able to live a sinless life, die and then resurrect he had to have been born.
Husband and wife are ONE marriage. The husband is fully married and the wife is fully married each are separately fully married. Yet, there is only one marriage.
Just the same with God. The Father is fully God as is the Son and Holy Spirit. Yet there is only ONE GOD. Echad. One.
No where in an part of my explanation does 1+1+1=3 apply.
There is ONE marriage. ONE God. The marriage consists of ONE fully married husband and ONE fully married wife yet we there is ONLY ONE
Are there three Gods? No. There is only ONE God. Within God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of which is fully God. If any of them did not exist, God would not exist.
The union is the same as that of the marriage which God himself states of man and wife as ONE (Echad) in Genesis 2:24.
I have never believed nor stated anything differently. I believe the same thing that the church has stated for 1,900+ years.
Jesus, THE MAN, died for our sins. Jesus, the ONLY perfect man, died for our sins. Every man on the planet who has EVER lived APART from Jesus committed sin and deserves the penalty of sin.
Jesus ALONE lived FULLY as a man without sin and thus was able to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
By the way, it is such a strange proposition to me and every theologian I have ever studied to propose that any christian believes that God could die in any way shape or form.
I have seen Christians who have a very limited Biblical understanding trying to present that idea but it is only from their theological ignorance.
The very concept of God dying is ludicrous. Mr. Deedat present only two options regarding Christian theology: namely that either God died or that a mere man died which
These two arguments demonstrate the shortage of familiarity with the Christian doctrine on Mr. Deedat's part as any study of the church's theology would demonstrate that it has NEVER held either of these positions.
your claim that jesus is the created and the creator at the same time is conflicting and not a concept that is easy to understand, and taht being the case knowing that god is not the author of confusion we are left to ask how can this be without creating confusion?
you nor i would look at a piece of wood and think it is god, because this wood is created, yet in the case of jesus an exception has to be made inorder for this to be believed, that to me again is confustion, and not godly.
You then state, "you nor i would look at a piece of wood and think it is god, because this wood is created, yet in the case of jesus an exception has to be made inorder for this to be believed, that to me again is confustion, and not godly."
If that piece of wood brought the dead back to life and in fact came back to life itself after being killed and demonstrated the ability to forgive sin, make new commandments, judge sin, give eternal life, be worshiped, control nature, etc.
so you're saying that God is A, and Man is B, and Messiah is AB, then they are different persona. You're emphasizing that as Man B is eating, drinking, and sleeping, God A is watching over him providing that Man B is not yet Messiah. Use your brain brother, you're telling me that you're praying to a Man B and not to the God A nor to the Messiah AB. You're seeing the physical manifestation so you can't see the God right, so it means that's Man B you're praying to. End.... thanks..
"You're emphasizing that as Man B is eating, drinking, and sleeping, God A is watching over him providing that Man B is not yet Messiah."
When did I say man B is not Messiah?
Messiah is both FULLY A and FULLY B. THAT is what i have stated.
"Use your brain brother"
Can we refrain from ad hominem (personal attack) as it is unbecoming of anyone who pursues the truth and is certainly not conducive to a meaningful dialogue.
To whom did jesus peace be upon him prayed? Elohim right? What's Elohim means? single God or One God right? so does it contradicts what Moses peace be upon him said? no right? So if MOses and Jesus peace be upon them prayed to same God, that it seems to follow that Moses peace be upon him = Man and Jesus peace be upon him = Man. Then to whom did Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him prayed? Allah right? so what does Allah mean? One God right? so, are all said prophets peace be upon them, prayed for
same God right? so it follows that the last revelation is revealed to the last Prophet. So what's with the last revelation must be followed. jorsak, knowing about God is not just as you based it to one source only and not to contradict the teachings of others. It must be accurate with detailed information without any human theology concerned.
Philippians 2:5-8 states, "5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!
Jesus is in VERY NATURE God. Took on human form and died on the cross.
Jesus is the word of God, the glory of God, the wisdom of God,...was there ever a time that God was without his wisdom?? or his glory or his Word??NO..then thats why Jesus was never created he was always with God and that Word of god came from God and became flesh!!
@njfreddy stupidestthing i've ever heard in my life, he was a MAN, he was a messenger from God, he was a prophet, he was born miraculously, he gave life to the dead by GOD's permission, he was not crucified, he never said i'm god or worship me, compare our two phrases, read the Qur'an, ask muslim people, and see which of them tient la route (in french)
@1bacsceco U Musslims Keep saying that Jesus never said he was God!! Well lets see! read what God said in Isaiah 44:6 and then read What jesus said in Rev 1:17-18 Rev 2:9 and Rev 22: 12-15 and u cant even deny that the First and the Last is a Title attributed to God cause thats even 2 of the 99 names u misslims give to God and Jesus said that he is the FIRST and the LAST..he is GOD!!
@njfreddy i know about the alpha and the omega thing, but what you DON'T KNOW, is that the book of Revelation is all about a DREAM that John had, in when he see some animals with 7 horns and 7 eyes,,, it was just a DREAM, not a real thing that jesus said. now if jesus was really a god, explain why did he say Mathew 28:18 : And jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth. John 5:30 : I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as i hear, i judge...
@1bacsceco God appeared to many via visions and dreams. Jesus appeared to John in the dream to give him that revelation. Thus it was Jesus stating he is Alpha and Omega.
Remember my analogy I gave you of husband and wife being one marriage and how that is just like Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being one God? Well the husband, according to God is the head of the wife. They are EQUAL in their humanity but God has appointed the husband as head. Once again, this parallels the (cont.)
relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are all equally God, but the Father is head and the son submits to the will of the Father just as a godly wife submits to the will of the husband. By the wife submitting to the husband it does not make her any less human or married. She is still FULLY married. Just the same, the son submitting to the Father does not make him any less God.
Now, the two scriptures you reference just show that. The Father gave the Son authority to do (cont.)
things that ONLY God can do. Let's look at your John 5 reference and look at the CONTEXT. In the beginning of John 5, Jesus had healed a man on the sabbath and the Jews were seeking to kill him for working on the sabbath when the law requires man to be at rest (John 5:1-16.) Jesus tells them, "17But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Jesus just equated himself with God in his answer because he tells them that he works every day just as his (cont.)
Father works every day. They understand exactly what Jesus said. Read their response, "18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
That is the CONTEXT of the verse you reference. Jesus proceeds to tell them that he can do nothing himself UNLESS he sees the Father doing it (verse 19). The requirement for Jesus to do anything is that he(cont.)
@1bacsceco u said the magic word ..Jesus said ALL POWER has been given to him in heaven and earth!! thats GOD!! there is nothiong that the Father can do that the son cant!! when jesus also says in his own he can do nothing it means with out the Ftaher the son is nothing!! since jesus is the WORD of God, in other words what is God without his Word?????
@njfreddy hhhhh, very clever how you change the meaning, but he also said : John 5:30: I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. Mark 13 : 32 : but of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father. he's speaking about the day of Judjement, and he says that even he, didn't know when that day will come, so how can he be a god, because as everybody knows, God is omniscient, he knows EVERYTHING
@njfreddy Acts 2:22 : "Ye men of Israel (O jews! ) hear these words : Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN approved of God (meaning a prophet) among you by miracles and wonders and signs, wich GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know" this is Peter's testimony, it clearly and explicitly shows that Jesus was a MAN sent by God, and all the powers he had and the miracles he did, were done by GOD through him
you state, "i hear what you are saying but this to me is double tounged"
It is neither double tongued nor confusing. It is plainly and clearly stated in scripture.
"5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
"in very nature God" and "being made in human likeness."
He is FULLY in VERY NATURE God. That is what it says. He then, being God and having the infinite power to do so, TOOK ON the form of a human being. THAT is what it says.
Now, you reference 1 Corinthians 14:33 (as does Deedat) and attempt to apply a verse that is in specific reference to many people speaking in tongues during a church service and how God does not allow for confusion and you attempt to apply it to the nature of God.
means that we will NEVER comprehend him or his nature. That is not CONFUSION. That is simple logic.
That is why god states plainly, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9)
It is always a bad practice to take a verse out of context and attempt to apply it to something that it was not speaking too.
Continuing you state, "The son you believe to be jesus and you believe that he died."
feel this is contradictory to my statement that God does not die nor can He. I NEVER assert that the Son dies. I assert, as does the church, that Jesus the man dies.
Let me attempt to clear something up by representing this algebraically.
God = A
Man = B
The Messiah = AB
The Messiah is both fully A and Fully B. A is not B nor B A. The nature of A doe snot mingle at all with the nature of B.
B dies and A is unchanged and by the Power of A, B is resurrected.
"I to believe that jesus is a man and like deedat i believe that no man can pay for my sins"
While I am very familiar with the standard Muslim view on atonement, it is not found in the scriptures.
Atonement for sin through blood has been in place since the foundation of God's holy law. Yom Kippor (The DAY of atonement) is one of the MOST holy days in all of Judaism.
Jesus simply BECAME the lamb that takes away the sins of the world (A title by which he is addressed - John 1:29) and he
SPECIFICALLY states that he came to die (numerous times -IE. Mark 9:31, John 10:17-18) and he SPECIFICALLY states the PURPOSE was to be the remittance (taking away of, debt payment for) of sins.
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." -Matthew 26:28.
Thus when you and Mr. Deedat state that Jesus did NOT in fact die for our sins, you do so in direct contradiction of the law and Jesus' own mouth.
have you seen the universe how big it is and how small we are do you think that god would not have anything better to do but to take on human form to convince us of his love,why do you think that you are so special? god through out history sends messengers he has heaven and hell fire so you can judge fore yourself and only christianity deviated from that line saying that three are one and one is three
(is this where the 3 musketeers theme came from?)(ALLAH) IS THE ONLY ONE
stating that two separate being in one state just the same with god, marriage is a not trying to be like god, but for male and female to find comfort in each other and live together to serve god (not to be like god) because we are creatures and we cannot be like god and not be closer by comparing but by submitting to him and obeying his commands,
we are to behave like creatures of his not on gods same level, where is the respect, why would he take on a human form when he can say be and it will
"stating that two separate being in one state just the same with god,"
GOD HIMSELF states that husband and wife are ONE (Echad). he uses the SAME word to describe the relationship between man and wife as he uses to describe himself; ECHAD - ONE.
Thus, it is GOD HIMSELF who establishes the fact that he views man an wife as ONE ENTITY, They are ONE marriage in two separate beings. The Husband is FULLY married as is the wife. Are there TWO marriages? No.
ONE God in three persons. The Father is FULLY God as is the Son and Holy Spirit. Are there THREE Gods? No. There is ONE (Echad) God.
This is not saying that man is God or even like God. It is simply stating EXACTLY what God states. The relationship between Man and wife is exemplary (an example) of the relationship within God.
Christianity did not deviate what so ever from the assertion that God is one. It has a full and complete understanding based in God's own words.
This is a very sensitive topic. Being someone who was raised in a very religious family, I know more about the bible than a lot of people my age. To me the bible isn't confusing, but it's somewhat contradicting.
thankyou, finally an honest answer, you see if there are contradictions in your bible then your pastors will go out of their way to try and somehow make it logical, but they still fail, another point worthy of mention is that any book of God can't have contradictions in it, that is why today christians don't have the book of God, or else it wouldn't be so easy to find mistakes and one thing that goes against another
'And they say: "None shall enter paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."' Sura 2 Verse 111
'Show us the straight way. The way of those on whom Thou has bestowed Thy Grace, not those who have gained Thy wrath(Jews), nor those who went astray (Christians).' Sura 1 Verse 6-7
One man shall not bear the sins of another, but every one his own; if a wicked man truly repent, he shall be saved; and if a just man leave his justice, he shall perish.
No one killed God. Jesus is FULLY man AND FULLY God.
He died as a HUMAN on the cross and he did so specifically for the forgiveness of mankind's sins. Not only is this attested to throughout the sacrificial law and the prophets but from the mouth of Jesus who made it perfectly clear that his blood was "spilled for the forgiveness of sin." (Matthew 26:28).
Since the moment God instituted the law, there has been the REQUIRED sacrifice for sin.
and I understand that you believe that your God simply forgives is a person asks but that is an alteration of the law of God that was literally in place for THOUSANDS of years and contradicts the message that was given through Moses and the prophets and specifically it contradicts Jesus Christ himself.
If you feel safe betting your eternity on that, then I can not stop you but I would recommend you listen to Jesus when he said that his blood was spilled for your sins.
then this verse will not apply to you, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
If you do not heed his words, then you will NOT pass from death into life and you will NOT have eternal life.
Why does another man suffer for my sins? is that what you call justice? why does another man pay for sins he didn't commit?even he didn't pay for my sins as he supposed to die before my birth
What GOD calls justice is that SIN has a debt that MUST be paid. Simply coming before the judge after having committed the crime and saying, "I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?" does NOT negate that JUSTICE DEMANDS PAYMENT.
We ALL DESERVE hell. We ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. (Roman's 3:23). Not ONE of us is righteous, no not ONE. (Romans 3:10) And the "wages of sin is death," (Romans 6:23).
This is what we see in scripture. For THOUSANDS of years the system of sacrifice
was in place. If you sin, you must SACRIFICE for that sin or you will surely DIE for that sin.
And what did you sacrifice? You sacrifice bulls and goats WITHOUT BLEMISH. And why? Because symbolically, these animals without blemish had no wrong in them; no sin.
Their innocence is what ALLOWED them to ATONE for your wrong doing because sin ALWAYS produces death. This is the system GOD establish and it was in place for THOUSANDS of years.
PERFECTLY take away your sin. So, each year, the high priests would offer again and again the sacrifice to take away the sins of the people. This day is the MOST HOLY of Jewish Holy days and is called Yom Kippor (The Day of Atonement.)
Thus, Jesus was sent into the world. To be a HUMAN without blemish. That is why he is referred to as "The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1:29).
My friend, JUSTICE would DEMAND that we DIE for our sins. However, the LOVE and MERCY of
God provided you a sacrifice without blemish to offer as your sacrifice. Jesus FREELY and of his own will CHOSE to become this sacrifice.
Jesus said in John 10, "17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again."
And it is why Jesus said, "No one shows greater love than when he lays down his life for his friends."
one act of SUPREME Love, JUSTICE has been met. The PENALTY or COST of sin has been paid and merited out. Jesus, the lamb without blemish, PAID that price.
And my friend, I do not say this to be disrespectful, but NO MAN who comes alone hundreds of years later can change what God has established and held in place for THOUSANDS of years. It is a deception and a falsehood that was warned about in scripture.
himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
I pray that you consider this as I sincerely believe your eternal soul hangs in the balance.
If believe that who died was human ,then why another (Man ) pay for my sins ,he is no more than a man ,if you believe that he is God who died ,then go find doctor
let me just say. saying thingz frm 1 part of the bible. (not tora) an thn swiching an saying another virse frm aother part. dont make him god.. him saying with his oun mouth. without twesting of word or asumsan he is god or worship me is one thing.. but bible an saying parts of it is another... p.s u do know ahmed knowz virses by hart whn hes oponet dont so il let u be the juge of tht. pice
#1. You are assuming that Jesus must say he is God in a way that YOU accept it.
#2. By that I mean that Jesus said he was God in a way that his AUDIENCE fully understood he was claiming divinity and it is plainly evident by their words and actions.
Jesus claiming to be ONE with the Father in John 10:30 was CLEARLY understood by HIS AUDIENCE as a claim of divinity.
The same goes for John 5:17, 8:58, 14:9, and SOOOO many other passages.
The simple fact that Jesus states in Luke 4:8 that NO
MAN is to receive proskuneo (Worship) and then he goes on to ACCEPT proskuneo on over 14 different occasions in Matthew alone demonstrates that HE BELIEVED he was God.
His mission was NOT to come and state that he was God in the flesh and that you should worship him. His mission was to fulfill the prophecy and the law which stated that the messiah would have all sins placed on him (Isaiah 53) and that he would die for our sins. THAT was his mission and that is exactly what he did.
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5: 11,12
- Some want to prove Jesus was not crucified. Ok, prove this 'that He is not living now'. It would be like saying someone sitting among us is a dead person!
samalex86me 5 months ago
Allah سبحانه وتعلى blessed us with Munazir ul Islam Sayyidunaa Ahmad Hussein Deedat رضي الله عنه who destroyed the Kuffar عليهم لعنة with his humour and wisdom.
Allah سبحانه وتعلى grant him Jannatul Firdous. Ameen
098890786 6 months ago 2
@098890786 ameen
dongani88 2 weeks ago
the lion of islam
yusuf99999 6 months ago
must see the Father doing it. He then says, "for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."
Now, please tell me what prophet EVER having simply SEEN what the Father does would say that he to could do it? Jesus just made a claim of deity right there my friend. Anything he sees the Father do, he can do! But perhaps the Father shows him limited things? Jesus says, "20For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing"
(cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
Jesus just told you that he can do NOTHING himself UNLESS he sees the Father do it and the Father shows him ALL things. Thus, Jesus has just claimed that he can do all things.
THAT is the CONTEXT of the verse you quoted my friend. Jesus never claimed the inability to do anything. He claimed that what he can do (all things) comes from him seeing the Father do it. Why? Because they are ONE (john 10:30).
I hope that helps. Sorry for long answer.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 9 months ago
@jorsak ok, I'll believe what you said, so, in accordance with that Jesus pbuh can do ANYTHING and knows EVERYTHING, but in Mark 13:32 : But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father. Here, he clearly and explicitely says that even the son don't know about the time of the day of Judgement, so how can he be a god, if he doesn't know such a thing, and of course,the fondamentals to be a God, is the omnipotence & the omniscience
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak (Cont)
Furthermore, in Mark 11:13 : And seeing a fig tree afar of having leaves, he came if happily he might find any thing there on : and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, FOR THE TIME OF FIGS WAS NOT YET.
He didn't even know the season when a fig tree will give fruits, and he got so angry he ordered to take it down, so he became angry because it wasn't the season when the tree shall give fruits ? did he forget that he is (as supposed) the creator of it ?
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak and he made the law of nature ? so here, it shows clearly that he wasn't omniscient, and he didn't know everything, which is a pure human thing.
Last but not least, Mark 1:13 : Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan. Can you imagine a "GOD" being tempted by the Devil ?
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco The Father shows the son all things. God the Father has revealed all things to the son. The son created all (John 1:1-3). Shows nothing to do with a lack of omniscience.
And you, much like Mr. Deedat, are making the mistake of an argument devoid of the Christian understanding of who the Messiah is. The Messiah is both FULLY human and FULLY God. This is plainly stated (Isaiah 9:6, Phil. 2:5-7).
It was Jesus, the fully human being, who was tempted by Satan. Not God.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 9 months ago
@jorsak no, i'm really not making an argument devoid of the Christian understanding, I'm just saying what Jesus PBUH said, and he said clearly that he doesn't know the time of the Last Day, and it's said clearly that he wanted fruits from the tree, but because it wasn't the season, which is very normal and very human, he didn't find them. and from christian perspective, Jesus was fully human and fully God, as you just said, and their more than equal, they're the same,
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak so if the heavenly Father knows father, Jesus MUST know it, which is not the case here; furthermore, i don't understand when you say "the fully human being who was tempted by Satan", because from Christian view and for everybody, Jesus was not schisophrenic, he was God incarnated in mankind and who lived among them, so they were both (human and God) living, knowing and DOING the same thing, so in those forty days, both human and God were tempted.
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak and to clarify a point, if the Trinity make only one and only God, and you think that they're equal and the same, why would the Son need the teachings of the Father ? if he's God, he must know everything, you can't teach God something, His knowledge is limitless, especially if they are the same, it's like he was teaching Himself which is absurd.
May Allah guide us all, Ameen
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak *** sorry, it's "if the heavenly Father knows the time of the Last Day" not father
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco Sorry, so many points to address that some get missed. I apologize. I need to clarify a couple points of Christian theology for you here as there are some misunderstandings that are causing difficulty.
#1. Christian doctrine teaches us that the Father and Son are one (as Husband and wife are). He is one being (God) in three persons; one marriage in two persons. This is a VERY important distinction. Father is NOT the Son and Son is NOT the Father.
(Cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
#2. The deity of the Christ never intermingles with his Humanity. It is impossible to be fully human if the human was intermingled with God. The two natures do not mix but are within the consciousness of the human. Consider the example of RAM (Random access memory) and ROM (Read only memory). The human mind (RAM) is unable to continue the infinite memory (ROM) of God. God the Son has all knowledge (ROM) and allows the access of this knowledge to the human Jesus (RAM) at the will of (Cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
God the son. Thus the human Jesus's mind grows in wisdom as a normal human would (Luke 2:52). God is unable to be tempted as God is in need of nothing but the human Jesus is fully human and has needs of the flesh as all humans do and consequently can be tempted.
Thus, a fig tree can be without figs and Jesus goes to see if it has figs and finds none. Thus, it is no problem for the human Jesus to experience a lack of knowledge in a subject because God the Son so no need or there was a (cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
lesson for the Human Jesus to grow in wisdom over or to share with his disciples which was actually the case with the Fig tree.
I wanted to clarify those two points because I saw a whole line of questioning that seemed to be answered if I could clarify the two. I hope that helps.
Blessings my friend,
Joe
jorsak 9 months ago
@jorsak I'm sorry, but it makes no sense when you say, Father is NOT the Son, and the Son is not the father, but, he is one being, it's either the same God and what I said before still hold, or there are 3 gods because they are not the same. because if you say that there is only one being (God) in three persons, the 3 of them must have the same knowledge and power, which is not the case, John: 5:30 : I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. so the only "logical" answer left is, there are 3 gods
(Cont
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco Husband is not the wife and wife is not the husband. Both are FULLY married and yet there is ONE marriage and in that union they are one. Same applies to God and it makes complete sense to me.
And if you are ONE how can you do anything other than what you do. The son could do nothing separately from the Father. They are ONE.
Read what he told you at the OUTSET the BEGINNING of his statement rather than pick a single verse at the end to draw your conclusions from. (cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
Read this closely and carefully and tell me that a mere prophet would EVER make such a statement. Honestly!
"Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things THE SON ALSO DOES IN LIKE MANNER." -John 5:19.
He is giving you CLARITY on the verse you keep referring to (5:30). Rather than just saying I can do nothing as you point to he is giving you CONTEXT.
He asserts his POWER (cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
as examples by these two statements.
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,"
WHAT PROPHET would EVER make such a statement?!?! The Son gives life... LIFE... to WHOMEVER HE WISHES. The Father will not judge your heart and the sins you and I have committed. JESUS SAID that HE would be the one to do that. How does a mere prophet (cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
have the power to know all your past sins and perform judgment of those sins? That is a GOD ONLY ability. And then, even more, Jesus tells you WHY this is the case. "23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father."
My friend, you may "honor" Jesus but I assure you that NO Muslim would ever assert that they honor Jesus "EVEN" (EQUAL) "AS they honor the Father."
Jesus never separates his will from his Father. He does NOTHING apart from his Father. WHY? (Cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
He does nothing apart from his Father because he is in perfect harmony and oneness with the Father. It is impossible for him to do anything apart from the other because they are ONE.
Let's try, as much as is possible, to stick to one point at a time. Bringing up spurious arguments like "the word trinity" is no where in the bible really helps or proves nothing. The word Qur'an is not in the Bible either. Can I safely conclude then that the Qur'an is False?
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 9 months ago
@jorsak first of all, comparing the Father and the Son with a married couple is unthinkable, God is uncomparable, even if you do so because you want me to understand what you mean, sorry but you can't compare Him with anything, that's a blasphemy in our religion.
about giving life, in Islam we believe that Jesus PBUH was able to raise people from the dead BY GOD'S WILL, we also believe that he could create something like a bird from clay, he blew in it, then the bird flew away,
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak but he did all this BY GOD'S PERMISSION.
yes we honor Jesus, we believe that he is one of the mightiest prophet's, but no muslim worships him.
the inexistence of the word "Trinity" proves that if it was real, it would be at least mentioned, such an important thing must be in at least one of the gospels, come on, it's one of the fondamentals of Christianity. the word Qur'an is not in the Bible but it is in several places in the Qur'an, but the word Bible is no where in the Bible
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco We're just going round and round. God would be unable to give a mere human prophet permission to judge the sins of all human hearts. That "permission" would require God's omniscience to rightly judge the sin. That argument does not stand.
I've already said all I have to say here and in our other conversations. The Bible is incorruptible if God is God. You state that God never promised as such in the Bible. Psalm 12:6-7 states plainly that he would.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 9 months ago
@jorsak Then why do your scholars revise the Bible, till now, the Bible had 5 MAJOR REVISIONS, and why from time to time, they say that this or that verse, is a fabrication and a concoction and is thrown out ? a true word of God shouldn't be revised, don't you agree? and a true word of God shoudn't have any human fabrication, yes or no ?
we as muslims, we believe that the Bible is the word of God, but we also believe that it was corrupted, so we can't trust in it even if it contains some
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco You crack me up with this FIVE MAJOR REVISIONS thing. No. There have not been five major revisions. There are 24,000+ manuscripts in 15+ languages and there have been translations of those manuscripts throughout history. There has NEVER from the foundation of the church been any change in the consistent belief of the deity of Christ, salvation through his death, burial, and resurrection, the requirements of the law, the prophets, or otherwise.
(CONT.)
jorsak 9 months ago
In fact, in the entire HISTORY of the New Testaments 7,958 verses, there are a grand total of 18-40 verses that are QUESTIONED depending on which group of scholars you talk to. EVEN AT 40 verses, that represents .005% of the verses.
You can rest your eternal salvation on .005% if you want. For me, it's just plain silly.
God's word cannot be corrupted. God cannot be thwarted by man. Simple.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 9 months ago
@jorsak about the 24000 manuscripts, did you know that no two are identical ? and when talking about a God's word, there should be NONE, 0 verse questioned, 0,0000001% is sufficient to prove that the entire book is not of God, and i'm not depending on the .005%, i'm depending on the 100% correct verses of the Qur'an.
God's word CAN be corrupted, if it can't, then why are there verses QUESTIONED ?
Peace
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco I'm uncertain why my response isn't showing up. I happened to check it just looking at responses and noted that it wasn't there. So, my apologies. I'm reposting.
#1. you state, "about the 24000 manuscripts, did you know that no two are identical?" This is an often stated argument from Deedat and it's a bit funny because while it is a true statement no intellectually honest person would make this argument from a standpoint of questioning the credibility of the document.(cont.)
jorsak 8 months ago
What do I mean by that? I mean that the 24,000+ copies are in 15+ different languages written by hand. So, OF COURSE, no two are identical. This is a typical parlor trick type argument of Deedat's. I will not argue against you and say they are identical because of that fact.
However, what are their differences? Are they truly different MESSAGES? NO! The "differences" are spelling, punctuation, an illegible word or phrase because of the age of the document. The content is 100% (Cont.)
jorsak 8 months ago
the same. There is no single doctrine or teaching called into question because of spelling, grammar, or a missing verse.
#2. Once again, these are COPIES of the original texts. Scribal notation in the copying process has lead to the questioned 18-40 verses that I mentioned. It is not a question of whether God's word has been corrupted but of intellectual honesty in admitting these verses or notations as suspect of being included in the text. Once again, this is simply an HONEST (cont.)
jorsak 8 months ago
approach.
#3. You say you want replay on the 100% accurate Qur'an but how do you know that. Uthman burned texts. You have NOTHING of the "original" writings. Research the hafsah codex. You will find that she protected with her life the collected writings that she had and these were later BURNED. Now, either she had uncorrupted text from Allah that she saved and Uthman saw fit to burn it or she had corrupted text. At any rate, you have NOTHING of the original. You have copies.
(cont.)
jorsak 8 months ago
#4. And what do those copies say? They say that the law of God revealed by Moses is a lie. (The law requires sacrifice for sin). They say that the prophets of God are a lie. (The prophets foretell of the coming Messiahs role to be that sacrifice) and they say that the Messiah of God is a liar. (The Messiah said repeatedly that he came to die and specifically die for the sins of many.)
Your book contradicts the previously revealed word of God and thus must be rejected.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 8 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@jorsak true words of God
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak which is not monotheistic as christianity claim to be.
NB: When the Bible speaks about Jesus' life and experiences, it never says the human Jesus did, or the God Jesus did, it only says, Jesus. So I don't know why you (christians) whenever it concerns some human experience (the tree, praying, eating, sleeping, crying...) say it only concerns the human part, while the Bible only say Jesus, who is from christian perspective, God incarnated in human being, so actually, it was the God
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak who was experiencing and living, and you say He did that, so He can understand the human weaknesses. and as long as I know, Jesus was not part of the time God and part of the time human, he was both at all time.
PS : another problem with christianity, God doesn't need to live as a human to understand their weaknesses, He created us, He knows them before Adam was created. see, the concept of Trinity has so much contradictions that the mind can't accept it, not mentioning that
(Cont)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak the word "Trinity" does not figure not ONCE in the whole Bible, and in all the versions, but actually it does in the Qur'an : 4:171 : People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@jorsak and take it as an advice for me, u should consider the truthfulness of the Bible, it contains countless number of contradictions and absurdities, pornography, incest... that any normal mind shall c that it can't be from God, we muslims believe that it contains some of the words of God, but it contains also human words so it can't be reliable, plz don't think I'm saying that because I hate Christianity or because I wanna insult it, but because I want u to c the truth, give Islam a chance
1bacsceco 9 months ago
chiristians dont have proper answer.they cant.actually they confused and try to confuse others
riaz5768 11 months ago
Yahshua will Judge Jews (his family) Christians (those who did and claimed to follow Jesus) Muslims fake monotheists Rev. 2:9 they wanted to be the real monotheists but are of the house of Satan. John 16:2 describes them to the T, and he propnesied about Muslims 600 years before Islam!
elmdub 1 year ago 2
@elmdub hahah lol.. okay.... we will see may Allah surely tell us the truth!
SuperMaryam16 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@SuperMaryam16 hahah lol.. okay.... we will see may Allah surely tell us the truth!"
the truth is being revealed in these days, no need of judgement day to find out.
elmdub 1 year ago
Islam is-lame and Allah is A-lie! Remember this and you will not be intimidated by this fallible religion, of the usurpation of Judaism, arabs envied the Jews and Christians, they were enemies of both for centuries even millenias before Muhammad, muhammad just played fire with fore by corrupting the imagery of the One God in Language and behavior!
elmdub 1 year ago
Christian=moron..just admit it..
nymphomaniacc 1 year ago
i feel sorry for these priests..they got so humilated against such a knowledgable brother Mr. Ahmed Deedat. May Allah reward him for all the good deeds he has done.
alcapon2 1 year ago
@alcapon2 may allah reward our scholar or sheikh he was great man. we can forget him.
MrGorod 1 year ago
I wish that rev. Erik was with more knowledge and with better language, then the debate would have been much better and much beneficial to all of us....
God bless Sh Deedat, may he rest in peace...
partyspirit 1 year ago
Does anyone know personally Eric Bock? Is he always speak like that? Or just crumble when truth is showed to him?
khalikmf 1 year ago
listen some of u brother say that mary is the daughter of god but how can she be the daughter of god and the mother of god that confuses me very much all 1 person said god needed jesus and jesus was with god. but brother god , HE is Allah, The One and Only, Allah the Eternal, The Absolute; HE begets not, nor is HE begotten and there is none like unto Him. no that a definition of god
holiday1ful 1 year ago
eric bock is stoned to death
hich101 1 year ago
this guy was no match for the great deedat
wat7771 1 year ago
deedat is a good public speaker but he is ignorant.
God would not eat because when you eat something, it has to come out of somewhere. So Jesus could not be God.
Yet in the Torah it says that God appeared as a man to Abraham and ate the meal that Abraham prepared for him.
The torah is not corrupt, there are original manuscripts written not long after the original texts.
Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM"
God said his name was "I AM"
a name that never appears in the qu'ran.
RenegadeMaster07 1 year ago
JOHN 17-4
I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
This is the ONLY place in the Bible where Jesus himself CLEARLY says .. he has done his work. He said this BEFORE the so called crucifiction. Hnece Jesus work was NOT TO DIE for anyone sins.
The statement is absolute. This rejects all claims of christians.
letmesee74 2 years ago 2
Repeating an argument does not make it true. This has been refuted numerous times.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 2 years ago
The point is that Muhammad removed all the idols except 1. The one which was called Allah. But the other one called Allat, the femaled version, he took out with the rest of the 300 idols. Why did he leave the one called Allah in there?
truthhitmanisback 2 years ago
because allah is the arabic word for god. it was used before mohamad by arab christians for hundreds of years. in syrian aramaic ( jesus' language) the word for god is aloho. allah is derived from that
soldier9718 2 years ago 2
mashallah.... a true speech by Mr.Ahmed Deedat.... and i hope the speech was very clear with all references and he made his point clear.....May Allah grand him Jannah...Amin
jafarhussain999 2 years ago
But didnt the Kabba , in Mecca, hold over 100 idols in it?
truthhitmanisback 2 years ago
true...so whats the point? the arabs of mecca were pagans before becoming muslims...
AAAjMMMiRRR 2 years ago
Held ! Past ! before that Muhammad (pbuh) came to deliver his message !
SimoDluffy 2 years ago
when christians see this
do they not wake up and see the truth
do they not stop and think for a little what they are actually following or believeing ect
im not hating on anyone here but i find it crazy how chirstians still follow a mangod and man written book that has many contradictions, errors and doesnt make sense.
like deedat said, god is not the author of confusion.
peace and blessing be upon you all
and i hope people see the light, truth, peace that is
I S L A M !!
MoShow3000 2 years ago 2
your right but some of the bible are words of allah so not all of the bible is writin by man.
yassineo9 2 years ago
The reason why is simple and I also am not saying this to "hate" on anyone. The objections brought up by Mr. Deedat are and have been easily answered for centuries.
Deedat makes simple theological errors of understanding regarding teh Christian faith that create his numerous contrasdictions. The argumentation tactic is called "Strawman argument."
IE. What Mr. Deedat does not apparently know about Christianity is that since the foundation of the faith it has been taught that
(Cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Pelase read the following from scripture which plainly states this: 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God,
(Here it is plainly stated that Jesus is in very nature God)
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
(Here it is plainly stated that he took on Human form.)
(Cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!
(And here it plainly stated his purpose in coming to Earth.)
That is Philippians 2:5-8. (Please feel free to read it on your own.)
Since Jesus is both fully man and fully God, of COURSE he would eat, sleep, drink, and do all the things a good Jew would do.
So that is one form of his error. Another is lack of familiarity with scripture as a whole.
(Cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
I do not say that lightly or ill-informed. I have watched hundreds of his videos here on you tube and I know that he can quote long passages from the scrtiptures that he is ready to debate which are the commons points of issue (IE. John 10:30).
However, he uses as example Jesus crying out on the Cross, "Eloi, Eloi, Lama sabacthani." or "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me." as an example of Jesus not being God. Why would Jesus cry out to himself he asks.
(Cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
Comment removed
jorsak 2 years ago
The whole time not knowing that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 which is a Messianic Psalm. Please read it and compare it to the scene at the cross. There are NUMEROUS passages that were fulfilled by Jesus alone.
Read closely these passages specifically:
16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encurecled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
(Clearly referencing the crucifixion)
17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
(cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
(A reference to his bones not being broken.)
I could go on as there are many amazing passages in that Psalm but you get my point.
Deedat is unaware of such things and thus he has "Issues" which appear numerous to him because of the lack of knowledge of the whole.
He has knowledge of specific passages but not of the greater whole.
It is for those reasons that the average Christian who knows scripture is completely unaffected by such argumentation.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 2 years ago
2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
dont be a fool
soldier9718 2 years ago 2
BAD DEBATE
52hogg 2 years ago
deedat won by far
MoShow3000 2 years ago
i know he make all of them look stupid that wy christian debate muslim who is not a master at the bible
52hogg 2 years ago
Mr Ahmed Deedat was a great speaker may ALLAH(s.w.t) grand him jannah Amin.
iatajik 2 years ago 13
Peace Be Up On Ahmed Deedat. A great lecturer of truth that delivered it with such precession. May he rest in peace. Emin.
muslimapurple 2 years ago 10
i am sorry but you canot explain what does not exist. There is NO TRINITY... and hence their is no fullu man and yet fully god. It is a lie and a delusion.
Jesus was a man and refered himself ot son of a man. GOD CANT BE A MAN NOR SON OF A MAN.
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?", Numbers 23:19
letmesee74 2 years ago
Hello Letmesee74,
It's good to see you here again. I have not seen you in some time and I myself have been extremely busy with very little time to post.
"i am sorry but you canot explain what does not exist. There is NO TRINITY"
I understand that this is your sincerely held belief, but it is NOT what scripture states.
As there are many examples, Philippians 2:5-6 states plainly, "5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God,"
jorsak 2 years ago
It is very simple. Very clear. Thus, it is NOT a lie nor a delusion.
You correctly identified Jesus' most common title for himself "Son of Man" but I believe are perhaps not familiar with WHY he called himself that. He specifically used that title because of the prophetic vision that Daniel had of the Messiah in Daniel 7:13-14. It is yet another reference to divinity made by Jesus. Jesus specifically connects his title with Daniel in a number of places. (IE. Luke 21:27.)
So even (cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
his most common title for himself is a reference to divinity.
Finally, you address Numbers 23;19 which is often misapplied verse.
Let me just say that to take PART of a sentence and attempt to make doctrine out of it is always a dangerous proposal.
The verse does not say, "GOD CANT BE A MAN NOR SON OF A MAN."
You have attempted to apply a period where a comma is AND have done so ignoring the context of the passage you reference.
The verse states exactly,
jorsak 2 years ago
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"
The prophet Balaam had (as God had commanded him to do) pronounced a BLESSING on Israel. The King Balak had wanted him to curse Israel.
Balaam's response was that God is not a man THAT HE SHOULD LIE.
And the ultimate proof that this passage has NOTHING to do with God's inability to take on human form is seen in the very next (cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
passage.
"20 I have received a command to bless; he has blessed, and I cannot change it. "
The passage does not deny God's ability to control all the molecules within his creation, form them into a human, and use that form to walk amongst man; speaking to his creation.
The verse has NOTHING to do with God being or not being a man. It speaks quite simply, and quite clearly, about God's inability to SIN by lying.
Blessings on you and yours,
Joe
jorsak 2 years ago
Hello Jorsak,
What Letmesee74 said is true the trinity does not exist in the Bible. Instead of quoting Jesus you quoted Paul. And Paul is the author of majority of the NT. But to go with what you quoted, You said Phil 2:5-6 saying that this is the Trinity. The word trinity is not in that verse or ANY verse of the Bible. second it talks about Jesus where is the holy spirit and the father? W/o the holy spirit and father there is no trinity. So even this verse does not talk about a trinity.
Promisedone82 2 years ago
"Instead of quoting Jesus you quoted Paul. "
And you quote Mohamed. your point? You believe Paul was NOT a prophet of God. Please, make the argument and demonstarte that he is not. Careful as each arguemtn you make will fall doubly against Mohamed.
Paul is a prophet of God and is in complete agreement with Jesus.
The word TRINITY and its appearance in the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus is God. It is a word used to DESCRIBE what is seen in scripture.
jorsak 2 years ago
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
mathew 28:19
soldier9718 2 years ago 2
THIS GUY WHO IS CHARING THIS BECAUSE MUSLIM LATER ON AND HIS NAME IS ABDUL WAHID HE NOW PREACH ISLAM :)
watch?v=pSL_UFmIPIY WATCH HIS VIDEO HE IS SAME THE PERSON CHAIRING THIS EVENT
jamshed231 2 years ago
@jamshed231 . which one ? the guy who wears red became a muslim ?
oOoKhaledoOo 1 year ago
Sheikh Ahmed Deedat is an awesome debater.
DomDollx 2 years ago
To those who listen & observe..
the truth is just before u..
whether u take it or leave it..
God has bestowed u with brains so u can
observe, think, & find Him..
& u'd better find Him..b4 it's too late..
kainak123 3 years ago 2
brother,the oneness that im getting from you is that you are comparing the oneness of allah to the oneness of humans, that is unthinkable all im saying is that campare marriage to anything but not to allah, because marriage to you is 2 becoming one,BUT,THE ONENESS OF ALLAH IS UNLIKE THE ONENESS OF HUMAN BEINGS BECAUSE ALLAH IS (THE ONE) AND NOTHING IS LIKE HIM,THAT IS WHAT IAM TRYING TO SAY, IF WE TRY TO GET CLOSER TO GOD THROUGH THESE MEANS ITS WRONG, BUT THROUGH GOOD DEEDS AND PRAYERS IS A YES
deadranger9 3 years ago
You can assert that all you want my friend but that analogy is not mine it is Gods. For just as God declared Man and wife Echad so too he states of himself that he is Echad.
It is HIS WORDS not mine.
Husband and wife are ONE marriage. The husband is fully married and the wife is fully married each are separately fully married. Yet, there is only one marriage.
Just the same with God. The Father is fully God as is the Son and Holy Spirit. Yet there is only ONE GOD. Echad. One.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
husband and wife are 2 persons 2 seprate ways and lifestyles and apperances there marriage brings them together but doesnt mean they are 1 becuase if u see 2 ppl random on the street ur gonna say hey those are 2 ppl 2 different ppl. just as if you saw 2 pictures from a famous painter are you gonna say those pictures are one if they are completly different when there creator has made for them differences for you to recgonize.
crazymack911 3 years ago
Husband and wife are two separate beings. Yes. Just as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings. However, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit form ONE god just as Husband and wife for ONE marriage.
Husband and wife are each FULLY and separately married. The Husband is fully married as is the wife. Yet, if either of them were not present there would be NO marriage.
This is THE SAME with God. The Father is fully God as is the Son and the Holy Spirit. If any of them were not
jorsak 3 years ago
in hindsight that sounds logical but u 4got the most important part of the trinity. they all have to agree coz they are all the same person. in a marriage people dnt agree and its not a perfect circle. so dont compare. mind u if they all agree and all are the same then how come onli 2 out of the 4 gospels is the birth of jesus mentioned. did the holy ghost forget to mention the most fundamental part of Christianity to mark and john. even matthew luke dont agree on the birth
koolkid8787 3 years ago
The only aspects of the comparison of marriage and the unity in marriage that fail in comparison of the unity in God fail only because of our humanity.
In other words, My wife and I WOULD be in perfect agreement if we perfectly operated in love at all times. But we do not. We are human. We screw up. Only the trappings of our flesh make the analogy faulty.
Humans can and do divorce because of sin. God does not divorce. Etc.
The most important aspect of Christianity is NOT the details of
jorsak 3 years ago
the Messiahs birth. The most important aspect is his death and resurrection. It is THAT that all focus on and preach about. In Christianity his death and resurrection mean eternal life for all who believe.
Obviously if he was able to live a sinless life, die and then resurrect he had to have been born.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
1+1+1=3 not 1
waqarzamankhan 3 years ago
And I repeat:
Husband and wife are ONE marriage. The husband is fully married and the wife is fully married each are separately fully married. Yet, there is only one marriage.
Just the same with God. The Father is fully God as is the Son and Holy Spirit. Yet there is only ONE GOD. Echad. One.
No where in an part of my explanation does 1+1+1=3 apply.
There is ONE marriage. ONE God. The marriage consists of ONE fully married husband and ONE fully married wife yet we there is ONLY ONE
jorsak 3 years ago
MARRIAGE. Are there TWO marriages? No.
Are there three Gods? No. There is only ONE God. Within God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of which is fully God. If any of them did not exist, God would not exist.
The union is the same as that of the marriage which God himself states of man and wife as ONE (Echad) in Genesis 2:24.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
joe isnt it that you believe that the jesus part of god died for your sins, or do you now believe a man died for your sins?
naliakbar 3 years ago
Hey Ali!
I have never believed nor stated anything differently. I believe the same thing that the church has stated for 1,900+ years.
Jesus, THE MAN, died for our sins. Jesus, the ONLY perfect man, died for our sins. Every man on the planet who has EVER lived APART from Jesus committed sin and deserves the penalty of sin.
Jesus ALONE lived FULLY as a man without sin and thus was able to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins.
This is what I have ALWAYS stated my friend.
Blessings,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
By the way, it is such a strange proposition to me and every theologian I have ever studied to propose that any christian believes that God could die in any way shape or form.
I have seen Christians who have a very limited Biblical understanding trying to present that idea but it is only from their theological ignorance.
The very concept of God dying is ludicrous. Mr. Deedat present only two options regarding Christian theology: namely that either God died or that a mere man died which
jorsak 3 years ago
would not suffice to remit the sins of all man.
These two arguments demonstrate the shortage of familiarity with the Christian doctrine on Mr. Deedat's part as any study of the church's theology would demonstrate that it has NEVER held either of these positions.
Blessings,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
Joe,
i hear what you are saying but this to me is double tounged... here is what you said which is what i responded to:
"There is only ONE God. Within God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of which is fully God. If any of them did not exist, God would not exist."
The son you believe to be jesus and you believe that he died.
I to believe that jesus is a man and like deedat i believe that no man can pay for my sins, because they are between me and god.
naliakbar 3 years ago
your claim that jesus is the created and the creator at the same time is conflicting and not a concept that is easy to understand, and taht being the case knowing that god is not the author of confusion we are left to ask how can this be without creating confusion?
you nor i would look at a piece of wood and think it is god, because this wood is created, yet in the case of jesus an exception has to be made inorder for this to be believed, that to me again is confustion, and not godly.
naliakbar 3 years ago
You then state, "you nor i would look at a piece of wood and think it is god, because this wood is created, yet in the case of jesus an exception has to be made inorder for this to be believed, that to me again is confustion, and not godly."
If that piece of wood brought the dead back to life and in fact came back to life itself after being killed and demonstrated the ability to forgive sin, make new commandments, judge sin, give eternal life, be worshiped, control nature, etc.
Well then...
jorsak 3 years ago
I'd have to look at that piece of wood in a WHOLE NEW WAY wouldn't I.
:-)
Blessings on you and yours,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
so you're saying that God is A, and Man is B, and Messiah is AB, then they are different persona. You're emphasizing that as Man B is eating, drinking, and sleeping, God A is watching over him providing that Man B is not yet Messiah. Use your brain brother, you're telling me that you're praying to a Man B and not to the God A nor to the Messiah AB. You're seeing the physical manifestation so you can't see the God right, so it means that's Man B you're praying to. End.... thanks..
raijeremae 2 years ago
"You're emphasizing that as Man B is eating, drinking, and sleeping, God A is watching over him providing that Man B is not yet Messiah."
When did I say man B is not Messiah?
Messiah is both FULLY A and FULLY B. THAT is what i have stated.
"Use your brain brother"
Can we refrain from ad hominem (personal attack) as it is unbecoming of anyone who pursues the truth and is certainly not conducive to a meaningful dialogue.
(cont.)
jorsak 2 years ago
"you're telling me that you're praying to a Man B"
No. I never said that.
"You're seeing the physical manifestation so you can't see the God right, so it means that's Man B you're praying to."
No. God manifested himself in human form (John 1:1, John 1:14, etc.).
I do not pray to the human in which God fully existed (B). I pray to God (A).
salaam,
Joe
jorsak 2 years ago
To whom did jesus peace be upon him prayed? Elohim right? What's Elohim means? single God or One God right? so does it contradicts what Moses peace be upon him said? no right? So if MOses and Jesus peace be upon them prayed to same God, that it seems to follow that Moses peace be upon him = Man and Jesus peace be upon him = Man. Then to whom did Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him prayed? Allah right? so what does Allah mean? One God right? so, are all said prophets peace be upon them, prayed for
raijeremae 2 years ago
same God right? so it follows that the last revelation is revealed to the last Prophet. So what's with the last revelation must be followed. jorsak, knowing about God is not just as you based it to one source only and not to contradict the teachings of others. It must be accurate with detailed information without any human theology concerned.
raijeremae 2 years ago
Philippians 2:5-8 states, "5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!
Jesus is in VERY NATURE God. Took on human form and died on the cross.
Simple. Detailed. Clear.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 2 years ago
Jesus is the word of God, the glory of God, the wisdom of God,...was there ever a time that God was without his wisdom?? or his glory or his Word??NO..then thats why Jesus was never created he was always with God and that Word of god came from God and became flesh!!
njfreddy 2 years ago 3
@njfreddy speak english my friend
aldomovielovers 1 year ago
@aldomovielovers Jesus RULES!!!! CATHOLICISM RULES!! CHRISTIANITY RULES!!!
njfreddy 1 year ago
@njfreddy That is the most illogical statement on Youtube ever....
rainbowmatrix 1 year ago
@njfreddy stupidestthing i've ever heard in my life, he was a MAN, he was a messenger from God, he was a prophet, he was born miraculously, he gave life to the dead by GOD's permission, he was not crucified, he never said i'm god or worship me, compare our two phrases, read the Qur'an, ask muslim people, and see which of them tient la route (in french)
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco U Musslims Keep saying that Jesus never said he was God!! Well lets see! read what God said in Isaiah 44:6 and then read What jesus said in Rev 1:17-18 Rev 2:9 and Rev 22: 12-15 and u cant even deny that the First and the Last is a Title attributed to God cause thats even 2 of the 99 names u misslims give to God and Jesus said that he is the FIRST and the LAST..he is GOD!!
njfreddy 9 months ago
@njfreddy i know about the alpha and the omega thing, but what you DON'T KNOW, is that the book of Revelation is all about a DREAM that John had, in when he see some animals with 7 horns and 7 eyes,,, it was just a DREAM, not a real thing that jesus said. now if jesus was really a god, explain why did he say Mathew 28:18 : And jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth. John 5:30 : I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as i hear, i judge...
1bacsceco 9 months ago
@1bacsceco God appeared to many via visions and dreams. Jesus appeared to John in the dream to give him that revelation. Thus it was Jesus stating he is Alpha and Omega.
Remember my analogy I gave you of husband and wife being one marriage and how that is just like Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being one God? Well the husband, according to God is the head of the wife. They are EQUAL in their humanity but God has appointed the husband as head. Once again, this parallels the (cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are all equally God, but the Father is head and the son submits to the will of the Father just as a godly wife submits to the will of the husband. By the wife submitting to the husband it does not make her any less human or married. She is still FULLY married. Just the same, the son submitting to the Father does not make him any less God.
Now, the two scriptures you reference just show that. The Father gave the Son authority to do (cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
things that ONLY God can do. Let's look at your John 5 reference and look at the CONTEXT. In the beginning of John 5, Jesus had healed a man on the sabbath and the Jews were seeking to kill him for working on the sabbath when the law requires man to be at rest (John 5:1-16.) Jesus tells them, "17But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Jesus just equated himself with God in his answer because he tells them that he works every day just as his (cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
Father works every day. They understand exactly what Jesus said. Read their response, "18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
That is the CONTEXT of the verse you reference. Jesus proceeds to tell them that he can do nothing himself UNLESS he sees the Father doing it (verse 19). The requirement for Jesus to do anything is that he(cont.)
jorsak 9 months ago
@1bacsceco u said the magic word ..Jesus said ALL POWER has been given to him in heaven and earth!! thats GOD!! there is nothiong that the Father can do that the son cant!! when jesus also says in his own he can do nothing it means with out the Ftaher the son is nothing!! since jesus is the WORD of God, in other words what is God without his Word?????
njfreddy 9 months ago
@njfreddy hhhhh, very clever how you change the meaning, but he also said : John 5:30: I can of mine own self DO NOTHING. Mark 13 : 32 : but of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father. he's speaking about the day of Judjement, and he says that even he, didn't know when that day will come, so how can he be a god, because as everybody knows, God is omniscient, he knows EVERYTHING
1bacsceco 9 months ago
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@njfreddy Acts 2:22 : "Ye men of Israel (O jews! ) hear these words : Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN approved of God (meaning a prophet) among you by miracles and wonders and signs, wich GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know" this is Peter's testimony, it clearly and explicitly shows that Jesus was a MAN sent by God, and all the powers he had and the miracles he did, were done by GOD through him
1bacsceco 9 months ago
Hey Ali,
you state, "i hear what you are saying but this to me is double tounged"
It is neither double tongued nor confusing. It is plainly and clearly stated in scripture.
"5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
"in very nature God" and "being made in human likeness."
I believe that
jorsak 3 years ago
that statement is quite clear.
He is FULLY in VERY NATURE God. That is what it says. He then, being God and having the infinite power to do so, TOOK ON the form of a human being. THAT is what it says.
Now, you reference 1 Corinthians 14:33 (as does Deedat) and attempt to apply a verse that is in specific reference to many people speaking in tongues during a church service and how God does not allow for confusion and you attempt to apply it to the nature of God.
The very DEFINITION of God
jorsak 3 years ago
means that we will NEVER comprehend him or his nature. That is not CONFUSION. That is simple logic.
That is why god states plainly, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9)
It is always a bad practice to take a verse out of context and attempt to apply it to something that it was not speaking too.
Continuing you state, "The son you believe to be jesus and you believe that he died."
I see that you
jorsak 3 years ago
feel this is contradictory to my statement that God does not die nor can He. I NEVER assert that the Son dies. I assert, as does the church, that Jesus the man dies.
Let me attempt to clear something up by representing this algebraically.
God = A
Man = B
The Messiah = AB
The Messiah is both fully A and Fully B. A is not B nor B A. The nature of A doe snot mingle at all with the nature of B.
B dies and A is unchanged and by the Power of A, B is resurrected.
You then go on to say,
jorsak 3 years ago
"I to believe that jesus is a man and like deedat i believe that no man can pay for my sins"
While I am very familiar with the standard Muslim view on atonement, it is not found in the scriptures.
Atonement for sin through blood has been in place since the foundation of God's holy law. Yom Kippor (The DAY of atonement) is one of the MOST holy days in all of Judaism.
Jesus simply BECAME the lamb that takes away the sins of the world (A title by which he is addressed - John 1:29) and he
jorsak 3 years ago
SPECIFICALLY states that he came to die (numerous times -IE. Mark 9:31, John 10:17-18) and he SPECIFICALLY states the PURPOSE was to be the remittance (taking away of, debt payment for) of sins.
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." -Matthew 26:28.
Thus when you and Mr. Deedat state that Jesus did NOT in fact die for our sins, you do so in direct contradiction of the law and Jesus' own mouth.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
have you seen the universe how big it is and how small we are do you think that god would not have anything better to do but to take on human form to convince us of his love,why do you think that you are so special? god through out history sends messengers he has heaven and hell fire so you can judge fore yourself and only christianity deviated from that line saying that three are one and one is three
(is this where the 3 musketeers theme came from?)(ALLAH) IS THE ONLY ONE
NOTHINGS CLOSE TO HIM
deadranger9 3 years ago
stating that two separate being in one state just the same with god, marriage is a not trying to be like god, but for male and female to find comfort in each other and live together to serve god (not to be like god) because we are creatures and we cannot be like god and not be closer by comparing but by submitting to him and obeying his commands,
we are to behave like creatures of his not on gods same level, where is the respect, why would he take on a human form when he can say be and it will
deadranger9 3 years ago
"stating that two separate being in one state just the same with god,"
GOD HIMSELF states that husband and wife are ONE (Echad). he uses the SAME word to describe the relationship between man and wife as he uses to describe himself; ECHAD - ONE.
Thus, it is GOD HIMSELF who establishes the fact that he views man an wife as ONE ENTITY, They are ONE marriage in two separate beings. The Husband is FULLY married as is the wife. Are there TWO marriages? No.
Just the same with God. There is
jorsak 3 years ago
ONE God in three persons. The Father is FULLY God as is the Son and Holy Spirit. Are there THREE Gods? No. There is ONE (Echad) God.
This is not saying that man is God or even like God. It is simply stating EXACTLY what God states. The relationship between Man and wife is exemplary (an example) of the relationship within God.
Christianity did not deviate what so ever from the assertion that God is one. It has a full and complete understanding based in God's own words.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
All i know is that these two pastors got rocked. This wasn't a debate, it was a comedy.
notoriousmuq 3 years ago
This is a very sensitive topic. Being someone who was raised in a very religious family, I know more about the bible than a lot of people my age. To me the bible isn't confusing, but it's somewhat contradicting.
KAMCEH 3 years ago
It is only contradictory when context is not understood.
What are some examples that you feel are contradictory? I will be happy to provide some further clarity.
Blessings,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
thankyou, finally an honest answer, you see if there are contradictions in your bible then your pastors will go out of their way to try and somehow make it logical, but they still fail, another point worthy of mention is that any book of God can't have contradictions in it, that is why today christians don't have the book of God, or else it wouldn't be so easy to find mistakes and one thing that goes against another
abdulr118 3 years ago
'And they say: "None shall enter paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."' Sura 2 Verse 111
'Show us the straight way. The way of those on whom Thou has bestowed Thy Grace, not those who have gained Thy wrath(Jews), nor those who went astray (Christians).' Sura 1 Verse 6-7
nv1 3 years ago
Levitical law REQUIRES sacrifice for sin. (Leviticus chapter 16:15-17, see also Yom Kippur).
The prophets foretell that the Messiah would be an atonement offering for all of our sins. (Isaiah 53 verses 5-7).
Jesus states that he came to die and rise again. (Mark 9:31)
Jesus states that he is loved by the Father for this very reason. (John 10:17-18)
Jesus states that his blood is spilled for the forgiveness of sin. (Matthew 26:28)
THAT is the straight way!
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
Ezekiel Chapter 18
One man shall not bear the sins of another, but every one his own; if a wicked man truly repent, he shall be saved; and if a just man leave his justice, he shall perish.
Generationfaithful 3 years ago
"if a wicked man truly repent, he shall be saved;"
And based on Judaism, repentance REQUIRES SACRIFICE. Levitical law states that sin DEMANDS sacrifice.
Read Leviticus 16 (Specifically verses 15-17) about the DAY OF ATONEMENT (Yom Kippur).
So, either you tell me that you've never committed sin in your life and thus have nothing to repent from or you better have a sacrifice for your sin.
I have THE sacrifice for sin which was offered ONCE FOR ALL TIME.
Hebrews 10:10 plainly states,
jorsak 3 years ago
"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Jesus is the sacrifice that pays for ALL SIN.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
I know that Jews have system of sacrifice,and so do we,we don't believe that we need to kill God to recieve his forgivness
Generationfaithful 3 years ago
No one killed God. Jesus is FULLY man AND FULLY God.
He died as a HUMAN on the cross and he did so specifically for the forgiveness of mankind's sins. Not only is this attested to throughout the sacrificial law and the prophets but from the mouth of Jesus who made it perfectly clear that his blood was "spilled for the forgiveness of sin." (Matthew 26:28).
Since the moment God instituted the law, there has been the REQUIRED sacrifice for sin.
This has been in place for THOUSANDS of years
jorsak 3 years ago
and I understand that you believe that your God simply forgives is a person asks but that is an alteration of the law of God that was literally in place for THOUSANDS of years and contradicts the message that was given through Moses and the prophets and specifically it contradicts Jesus Christ himself.
If you feel safe betting your eternity on that, then I can not stop you but I would recommend you listen to Jesus when he said that his blood was spilled for your sins.
If you choose not to
jorsak 3 years ago
then this verse will not apply to you, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
If you do not heed his words, then you will NOT pass from death into life and you will NOT have eternal life.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
Why does another man suffer for my sins? is that what you call justice? why does another man pay for sins he didn't commit?even he didn't pay for my sins as he supposed to die before my birth
Generationfaithful 3 years ago
What GOD calls justice is that SIN has a debt that MUST be paid. Simply coming before the judge after having committed the crime and saying, "I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?" does NOT negate that JUSTICE DEMANDS PAYMENT.
We ALL DESERVE hell. We ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory. (Roman's 3:23). Not ONE of us is righteous, no not ONE. (Romans 3:10) And the "wages of sin is death," (Romans 6:23).
This is what we see in scripture. For THOUSANDS of years the system of sacrifice
jorsak 3 years ago
was in place. If you sin, you must SACRIFICE for that sin or you will surely DIE for that sin.
And what did you sacrifice? You sacrifice bulls and goats WITHOUT BLEMISH. And why? Because symbolically, these animals without blemish had no wrong in them; no sin.
Their innocence is what ALLOWED them to ATONE for your wrong doing because sin ALWAYS produces death. This is the system GOD establish and it was in place for THOUSANDS of years.
But since they were just animals, they could not
jorsak 3 years ago
PERFECTLY take away your sin. So, each year, the high priests would offer again and again the sacrifice to take away the sins of the people. This day is the MOST HOLY of Jewish Holy days and is called Yom Kippor (The Day of Atonement.)
Thus, Jesus was sent into the world. To be a HUMAN without blemish. That is why he is referred to as "The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." (John 1:29).
My friend, JUSTICE would DEMAND that we DIE for our sins. However, the LOVE and MERCY of
jorsak 3 years ago
God provided you a sacrifice without blemish to offer as your sacrifice. Jesus FREELY and of his own will CHOSE to become this sacrifice.
Jesus said in John 10, "17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again."
And it is why Jesus said, "No one shows greater love than when he lays down his life for his friends."
Through this
jorsak 3 years ago
one act of SUPREME Love, JUSTICE has been met. The PENALTY or COST of sin has been paid and merited out. Jesus, the lamb without blemish, PAID that price.
And my friend, I do not say this to be disrespectful, but NO MAN who comes alone hundreds of years later can change what God has established and held in place for THOUSANDS of years. It is a deception and a falsehood that was warned about in scripture.
Read with your own eyes the warning:
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan
jorsak 3 years ago
himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
I pray that you consider this as I sincerely believe your eternal soul hangs in the balance.
Peace and blessings,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
If believe that who died was human ,then why another (Man ) pay for my sins ,he is no more than a man ,if you believe that he is God who died ,then go find doctor
Generationfaithful 3 years ago
My friend, if you took the time to really read what I had posted, you would not be asking me this question.
I will RESTATE what I have already posted at length.
#1. EVERY HUMAN SINS.
#2. Levitical law REQUIRES sacrifice for the payment of sin. GOD has REQUIRED sacrifice for sin for thousands of years.
#3. Every human sins. EVERY HUMAN SINS accept for the God-Man Jesus. Who HAD NO SIN IN HIM.
#4. Thus, Jesus COULD pay the sin debt that you RIGHTFULLY OWE. He has no sin in him and
jorsak 3 years ago
does not deserve the sin debt. So, when he offers to TAKE YOUR SIN, he can do so "Legally" before God.
#5. This maintains God's justice as the sin debt has been legally paid. AND it demonstrates God's great love in providing a payment for that sin debt.
God CANNOT die nor does any Christian assert that.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
let me just say. saying thingz frm 1 part of the bible. (not tora) an thn swiching an saying another virse frm aother part. dont make him god.. him saying with his oun mouth. without twesting of word or asumsan he is god or worship me is one thing.. but bible an saying parts of it is another... p.s u do know ahmed knowz virses by hart whn hes oponet dont so il let u be the juge of tht. pice
rudeboywaz 3 years ago
#1. You are assuming that Jesus must say he is God in a way that YOU accept it.
#2. By that I mean that Jesus said he was God in a way that his AUDIENCE fully understood he was claiming divinity and it is plainly evident by their words and actions.
Jesus claiming to be ONE with the Father in John 10:30 was CLEARLY understood by HIS AUDIENCE as a claim of divinity.
The same goes for John 5:17, 8:58, 14:9, and SOOOO many other passages.
The simple fact that Jesus states in Luke 4:8 that NO
jorsak 3 years ago
MAN is to receive proskuneo (Worship) and then he goes on to ACCEPT proskuneo on over 14 different occasions in Matthew alone demonstrates that HE BELIEVED he was God.
His mission was NOT to come and state that he was God in the flesh and that you should worship him. His mission was to fulfill the prophecy and the law which stated that the messiah would have all sins placed on him (Isaiah 53) and that he would die for our sins. THAT was his mission and that is exactly what he did.
Salaam,
Joe
jorsak 3 years ago
why do you call him GOOD? ONLY God Is good.