I also don't think that utility can be the only argument for grounds in human rights. For example, I see someone I really despise drowning (perhaps in a war), yet I feel morally obligated to save him. How can this be? Why would I endanger my own life to save some one who isn't even of my own kin? Such feelings shouldn't exist speaking strictly for survival instinct, instead they should have died out a long time ago... In other words, why would I risk my opportunity to reproduce...
@kibbles5724 Or is it the fear of a god that you think forces you to do these apprehensive good deeds? Then the same can be said for why do you accept jesus and god, for fear of being tormented for all eternity? Would that not make your allegence an act of preservation? Would your faith in a god be as adament if you knew that no matter what you did, you were still going to hell? Would you then abandon christianity and start killing babies and being disorderly?
@kibbles5724 There were many that did not exhibit compassion during the inquisition, in the name of god. You make it sound as if there is some force compelling you even though you may not want to do something, do you find it strange that you would want to help another person? Your a good person, I served in the Coast Guard just because I liked helping others. Was it a god that instructed me? No, it was a choice I made alone.
@TheReach1 It seems either I am simplifying this too much, or you are overcomplicating life. So as I understand it, all of the wonderful things that are done come from a god, and all of the dismal and horrific things also? You make it sound as if we are just marionettes with the gods pulling all of the strings for their/his pleasure. The idea of Karma is to make you feel that the bad will be punished, and the good rewarded, but by your definition, the gods determine that. So much for free will!
The God force creates us all as "perfect" beings"...but we all stray from this perfect form as souls...we all go throught the experiences that each soul needs to cleanse our imperfections and return to the purer state ,Karma is just the balancing of our actions,Think of Jesus,for instance as an example of a perfected soul and an opposite, Adolf Hitler, as a soul grossly imperfected...sort of an extreme example.....
@TheReach1 Jesus was just a nice guy who pissed off the wrong people who killed him. Hitler was just a paranoid meglomaniac with delusions of grandeur. There are no imperfections that need to be cleansed. All we need to do is treat others better then we would treat ourselves regardless of your or my belief. I would like to think that we benefit karmicly by good deeds and actions, but you and I know that is not the case, what happens, happens. An asshole could win the lotto, a nice person robbed.
@EchosFromaBlankMind +Truly, all we need to do is treat everyone better than ourselves..creating good karma...healing what is wrong in the world..All the actions you speak of get leveled offf eventually in the karmic balance,The good man with bad things happening to him..may have created his situation in a past life.The bad man getting rich..may have done a good deed in previous life and any bad thing he does now..will have to pay back next time around.God watches over all of this.
@TheReach1 Paying the price for what was done in a previous life? Makes absolutely no sense. Karma is another selfish excuse of ours in hopes of improving our lives or receiving favors from the gods above. The same concept that religion would have you believe gets you into heaven. You should do things because it is the right thing to do, and makes you and others feel good, not to improve your karmic balance or to ensure a good spot for your heavenly seating reservation. No cosmic referee either.
@EchoesFromaBlankMind:":Lord I've wandered this desert too long".love that line !I'm listening to the song now..thank you God,,thank you singer Bob Carlisle..thank you Echoes for your discourse!Karma is just a balancing act like a seesaw that rights itself in the center when it is pushed up or down...God and his universe seek equilibrium!"Flood through my soul and pour out your mercy"..Love it! !Good acts are spontaneous,,not planned.Even the simplest soul knows that a bad act has a consequence,
@TheReach1 We both agree on some points you make. However I am slightly confused, I did not know that Christians believed in reincarnation, please clarify your stance & reasons for bringing Karma into this discussion. I do believe that the world works in cycles, I am a hunter and can attest to good and bad seasons based on food supply, birth rates and predation.
However the world does not care of good nor bad deeds, it matters not. Even the simplest soul needs to be taught right from wrong.
Then who's gonna tell me that it's not the "right thing to do", by golly, if i want to exploit the poor, enslave the masses, and kill all I don't like, who are you to tell me that it's wrong?
@kibbles5724 It all starts with your parents. Do a little study into anthropology and see that not all societies have the bible, but do a have code in which they live. Common sense and survival instincts dictate that if you want to coexist with others then you don't go around killing and all the other stuff, you work together. However, even with these bible standards men have broken the rules. So it all boils down to, is how far are you willing to go?
@kibbles5724 No god will tell you what to do, it first starts with your parents and then your life experiences. As I said before it also depends on what is considered the norm for you (Hence the Anthropology comment previously). If god is to be your father, then he is an absent parent. Without your folks, do you think that a god would raise and guide you, or that you would revert to a feral state, or adapt to your environment?
I think your missing the point. I didn't say that other societies didn't have moral and ethical codes by which they live. I said to what point are you willing to believe this, until someone says, "napalming babies is culturally relative". God gives man the ability to to do good, so that does not mean they are excluded from this.
@kibbles5724 It is not god that gives man anything, maybe your missing the point. What I think your trying to say is that a god put this compassion into man that would not be there otherwise. How many people do you think HAVE left someone to die? Most people are good, this I know to be true. But it is not something is put there by some entity, it is what you have learned through parents and your own moral standards.
To EchoesfromablankMind Early in my marriage..to a man I recently lost,.,we studied the God worlds in a teaching known as "Soul travel" (or Eckankar) We learned alot, but we fell away from the teachings as time passed.When my husband died, I was tugged to the other side with him and I felt a rush of love the"living waters"as in the song song poured through me and easing my grief.. When you feel it personally..it is a mighty power....no doubts here!
@TheReach1 I am truly sorry for your loss, I hope that my wife outlives me, I do not know what I would do without her. Teachings are just that, a description and a methodology that is subjective to the situation and environment surrounding you. What good is learning about the internet and computers if you are in an area where neither exist, and as well what good are skills at raising crops or animals if you live in the inner city. These simple facts point to simpler answer for our existence.
I believe "God", or the higher power, guides us in our search for deeper meaning and also for mere survival in these "lower worlds". There are clues and signals everywhere to pick up.I thank you ,and I hope you don't outlive your wife, because it is hard at first, being the one left behind. When you come through the tunnel of grief.you arrive at the other side of renewed faith,there is much joy and celebration in the tasks for soul after this life has passed. and a beautiful reunion,
As you state, "I Believe" is just that, your own belief, how can one argue with that? I must say that I am at the other end of the spectrum and feel that as far as what I have seen and experienced, (I too was once religious) I must say that any proof of a god or a higher supernatural power has yet to be found. I feel that we overcomplicate this world and our lives with these supernatural conjurings as being fact. I will switch over when a god does not hide from us anymore, still waiting!
@EchoesFromaBlankMind :Listen to those lyrics:"Lord so many times you called my name..I turned my face the other way...yet before I even saw the moon..you loved me....how could I be so blind...when I awoke.I created my darkness..Forgive me and wash me clean again...so come living water..flow thorugh me like a river...my heart's been thirsting so long...Flood through my soul..and pour out your mercy,,,Come living water fill me." I think that says it all and you stil might choose to disagree!
@TheReach1 Those are lovely lyrics, but what do they prove? Not whether a god exists or not, but a feeling that someone has towards a possible god. Does a child who believes in the "Puff the magic dragon" song make it real? No, and I am sure you would agree with that, but why should the song you present be any different. I could write a song about how much I love the tooth fairy, but it would not bring it into existence. This could bring up the question, did god create us, or did we create god.
@EchosFromaBlankMind ...Well, frankly I never believed in "Puff the Magic Dragon" which was a veiled reference to marijuana! Of late, I have come into contact with others like myself from various faiths, who have a strong faith in the higher power..We have helped each other. I have been priviledged to meet these others with such strong faith..it has been quite a journey.I've run out of arguments for you tonight...but God is in everything that you see and hear,
@TheReach1 Your missing the point about poor puff, what would you think about someone who truly believed that Puff existed. Having faith in something does not make it real. I am sorry you feel that this is an argument, I do not feel that we are arguing as much as trying to get to the root of the matter. Are monotheists any more correct than polytheists, after all creating all of this that you see and hear is quite a task, such as angels being messengers and such, and possibly other entities?
@TheReach1 After all, where does reality end and the supernatural god that you speak of begin? I am not trying to sell you on the lack of a god, but great claims require great proof. If I told you that I spoke with god yesterday, would you truly in your heart believe me, or would you harbor that grain of doubt, because deep down you know that it would not be possible. God is in everything, that would also include, war, famine, hunger, disease, earthquakes, storms, massive deaths, need I go on!
We are just floating around in the bottom of the bathtub,.the ring around the tub so to speak.There are higher God worlds above us, with a purer vibration.When you hear an artist compose a beautiful heavenly song..where did that come from? They have channeled it down through their consciousness and presented it here on the lower earth plane from above,War, death, famine are all necessary componants in the balancing act that is "karma". Souls go up
@TheReach1 You then again raise the question of did we create god, or did a god create us. You give yourself little credit for your accomplishments and creativeness. Why does inspiration have to come from a god and not your experiences. We as humans tend to overcomplicate matters, life included. Do you think that the animals and insects worry about a god?, most likely not. I do however agree that the bad stuff is just the normal going ons of life in general.A sine wave that has its ups and downs
All people or "souls" come to their knowledge of God and the higher worlds at their own pace and in their own way. It is pointless and against Gods way to criticize others for where they stand in their God beliefs.. All will come to know God eventually.I had my years of doubt and now firmly believe in the God for all people and all of life. I had a reawakening to my spiritual beliefs..everyone will eventually.God is great...he waits for all.
The Bible's archeology, history, and prophecy speaks eloquently for itself.
You've taken a hit with life experience but it didn't disprove the God you followed. It disappointed you. An eternal view of things puts it back in perspective. Don't abandon the hope you knew. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"
We have a short life but eternity is forever. Do you really want to abandon faith in God for faith in mindless death? You're smarter than that.
@jwalker59 You say "Do you really want to abandon faith in God for faith in mindless death? You're smarter than that."
So by what I'm reading, is it truly for your god that you believe in him, or is it just for your own selfish fears of possibly going to a hell. Self preservation I would guess. Would you still believe if this god were to tell you, "J, you've been a good guy, but I don't see you getting into my heaven, so I am going to send you down below, dress light!" I'll leave it at that.
So there's no confusion, It's for the love of God and the obvious truth of His creation and presence in my life I follow Him. Let's just say, however, you're correct, for arguments sake. If there's a hell to avoid, you're a blithering idiot and a fool to shake your fist at it and scream your unbelief. It doesn't care. God, on the other hand, became YOUR sacrifice so YOU could live eternity with Him. "The wise man sees the danger and takes refuge." YOU choose. YOU alone are responsible.
The only reason you consider me a blithering idiot and a fool is because I do not follow nor believe in your doctrines or dogmas, I however do not hold anything against you nor have I been reduced to name calling. You are right though, if there is a heaven or a hell, or even if there is none, both of our opinions matter not, but we won't know until we die.
How can it be a sacrifice when he is supposed to be immortal to begin with? He had nothing to lose, that is if you believe in magic!
Let me spotlight what appears to be the problem here. You want God to follow your rules. I understand this and wish, at times, for the same thing but the fact is, He is the creator and we have no right to demand OUR way in things. It's reasonable to follow God and believe His Word. You are correct however; one must believe to have the veil removed. Miracles abound and I've seen them myself (ie. healing, provision, etc.) Just because you haven't seen Him, doesn't mean He's not there to be found.
@jwalker59 No I do not want a god to follow my rule, even if one existed. It boils down to that we alone are responsible for what we do. Praying only occupies your time. Anyone who feels that they can alter the physical world by praying, casting spells, is delusional at best. You may feel that it is a reasonable thing to follow any deity and their dogma, but all I see is the trouble that it causes. The muslims say they are the ones, the christians say that they are,religion needs to just go away
I am not saying my belief is the "One" I'll leave that to you and the muslims, jews and other religions. All that I am saying is that we are responsible for our own lives, that there is no god who will feed nor cloth you or let you win the lottery, also if he is responsible for the good things, then he should be responsible for the bad, but if he is not around to lay down the law, well then what else can be expected, even a dictator or a despot shows himself to his subjects once in awhile.
Give your life to YOUR God.... a God that listens and wants to hear from you... A God that loves you and everyone else and wants to help you succeed and endure your troubles...not a Christian God, or a Muslim God, or a Jewish God or a Buddist God...but just the ONE God.. who is the only God for all these religions & for all the souls on the earth and in the universe.. Love God. ..his power is endless, infinite... all-powerful,,..
You sound very sincere in you beliefs, and I admire you for that. But in my own experience, and I was religious at one point in my life, I have come to find that we dont need a god and as for what I have seen, there is none, if there is a god there would be no doubt and you and I would not be having this discussion. I prefer to live in the here and now. The more I think about it, the further from a god I seem to get. I listen to all of these people debating god, he should not be this difficult.
Take Dottie Rambo as an example, here this woman sings the praises of god and his love, and how does she die? Not in her sleep or in some angelic setting, but in a bus wreck, she probably suffered before she died, is this what your god does to those who praise his name? And I am sure that you have seen the same suffering in your lifetime as I have, I was in the service and had to deal with death regularly in different parts of the world & not only in the US. No god just makes sense.
@EchoesFromaBlankMind The seemingly incomprehensible events you describe are the playing out of the whole, a balancing act.The eastern philosophies call it "karma". It is all part of the bigger plan to bring souls to a higher place ...to a state of "purity" and to a balance with each other and ultimately, a peace within the soul of everyman and woman. This is a work endlessly in progress.Find love for each and ev every man and woman in your heart,..the rest follows...
@TheReach1 The events themselves are not incomprehensible, its the belief that some supernatural being had anything to do with it, good or bad. Is there a higher place, I do not think there is. And if there is no other mystical place after we die, is that such a bad thing! To have your soul live in an eternity of the same thing day in and day out. that seems more tragic to me. As for the physical world the old has to give way to the new, plain and simple.
I think you really know the answer to the examples you cite. The moon is probably a reference to an apocolyptic disaster. You have no idea of God's answers to believers' prayers because you're not a believer. And God already answered the Cain/Able issue when He said "his blood cries out to me from the grave." Of COURSE He knew where Able was. He was giving Cain a chance to come clean. But, I think you knew that. Let's stick to honest enquiry please.
Back to conjecture concerning the moon thing eh! So in order to understand god, we need to first beleive in him? That would be great if he would just be so kind as to pop in every once and awhile to see how things are doing. But we both know deep down the answer to that one. I was religious once, and was as fervent as you are now, but my lifes experiences have shown me otherwise. Believe in what you want, but you have not shown why christianity is the correct religion compared to all the others!
@jwalker59 By your own description, god asks questions that he already knows the answers to? Then god could have stopped the murder, since he would have known it was going to occur. Why would he only create two people? This whole concept of an omnipotent being creating people to essentially worship him sounds like a Greek tragedy, and in most cases it is. The story of caine does allude to incestuous dalliences,where else would the people that caine met have come from! which is never explained.
If we're going to discuss life origins, let's just spotlight your belief in incestuous microbes that sprung to life from non-life and found mates and something to eat! Talk about fairy tales.
Adam and his descendants didn't have the problems with genes that God regulated later. Brother/sister was ok in the beginning. Sorry to knock over the straw man so fast.
God gave YOU the free will to accept or reject. Again, You're responsible. Make good choices for eternity. It's a long time.
Hey if you can believe that someone just uttered words and things appeared out of nowhere, then life from nothing and then progressing into more and more complex beings should not be such a mental exercise. Now there you go making excuses and saying that incest was OK, kind of a little creepy! Why did he not just make more people to begin with? Is it really free will you speak of? Choose whatever you want, but if you reject me, you will burn in hell! Sounds more like man trying to control man.
There is no " Hell.".,except maybe the one that some make here for others on the earth...and that is just cosmic karma being played out. The higher God power has infinite love for every soul...regardless of what state each is in. Hell is really a construct of ..man,separate from God. Adolf Hitler epitomized a soul that had strayed very far from God in his heart.He had no love.
You start off well by stating that there is no hell, which would also indicate that there is no heaven, by your own accounts. Then you move on to what you call a higher power, and then rattle off how much infinite love this entity has for all. How do you know this? have you seen or spoken to this entity? A cosmic Karma would indicate another type of belief altogether. Why does there need to be a god? Why would he remain hidden for so long? The concept of no god is more factual then one with it.
Sorry, text limits prohibited answering one of your statements. The accuracy I refer to is the history, geography, and prophecy of the Word. There are no inconsistencies. What there isn't, is no evidence of animals becoming other animals, accurate dating methods, and "scientific" assertions that the Colorado river carved the Grand Canyon. (see 1980 explosion of Mount St. Helens).
You believe that dinosaurs and jesus were around together at the same time, and that the world is only 9 to 12 thousand years old?
If god were a fact, you and I would not be having this dicussion.
There are those who believe that when a photograph is taken, their soul has been stolen, because they do not know any better, you and I both know that to be untrue. It is because they do not understand technology. God is the same, he is like Oz, there are those behind the curtain who keep him alive.
You are, of course, over simplifying this trying to make me look foolish, while you totally ignore the fact you believe life sprung from rocks. We're both religious. You, however, believe in dirt. Please don't act like my belief in almighty God is silly and your belief is not.
Have I ever said that life sprung from rocks? I think not.
It is funny how you vilified science a few statements back concerning dating methods and other scientific assertations. It sounds to me that you are a follower of Mr. Hovind, who has been proven wrong concerning many of his statements. It is too bad that the criteria that you use to disprove a theory of science, is not used on religious beliefs. You cannot claim that the bible is a perfect works, when it truly is not, that is all.
Yet you want us to believe that some imaginary super power waved his hands and carved the grand canyon or even created this planet and world. The bible is not a perfect book, for example, Isaiah 30:26 The moon will someday be as bright as the sun now is (Moonlight is reflected). Matthew 18:19 If two [believers] agree about anything they ask, God will do it for them. Genesis 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is. But is not God everywhere, sees everything, Nothing is hidden from his view?
Your assertion about what we'll experience at death is conjecture. It's the unscientific and ethereal things like love and beauty that make life worth living.
Your red flags aren't salient when the creator states the rules. Where do you think you got the idea for right and wrong in the first place? God places no conditions on His love but, like an earthly father, if the son rejects Him, His hands are tied on reward. No malice, just fact.
As for the experience at death, what you really mean to say is that what you and I are saying is conjecture and not just my statement. Right or wrong are not determined by some genetic code implanted in us, it is the process of learning to deal with others in order to survive. So when others do wrong, is i because god skipped a few? According to the christians, there is a condition of his love. If my son did not like me, I would still love him, but should I punish him? No need to obey a creator.
The facts are all around you and, as the Word says, "they are without excuse..."
Spontaneous generation has never produced life and 'kinds' have never produced other kinds. You have the facts. It's denial eating up your argument. The historicity, authenticity, and accuracy of the Bible is easy to point out (in a larger venu).
Aside from the facts, I've seen the more 'supernatural' aspects you alluded to. Jesus is the answer and the power. Being closer to death will bring it home for you.
You try the same arguments as Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort, please do not also use that idiotic bannana example. You are correct, denial is afoot, but it is on your field. Please clarify your comment on "Kinds" so that I do not confuse it with other religious theories. What accuracy of the bible are you referring to? You should also point out it's inaccuracies to be fair. I have dealt plenty with death, in the military I handled the dead and tried to save others lives, That is what changed me!
My goal is to shed brainwashing from either side. I'm not 'religious' as some would define it (and I'm not familiar with the arguments you refer to). The popular science community has embraced a very unscientific stance (life from non-life) and shoved it so firmly down our throats that anyone who looks clearly at the evidence is mocked and shunned (even fired) if they don't agree with the accepted view. 'kinds' means dog/wolf/coyote kind will not become 'pig' or cat kind if we wait long enough.
You are right in that cats and dogs will not intermingel and and create something else, but that is biology and nothing more. But changes and developments of a species has occured and has been documented to a point where the original differs from the final and most recent product of evolution. This creator that you speak of, where is it? Why hide? When was the last time he built a church instead of having men do it? If he is as grand as all say, popping up a building would be childs play!
@Kayenne54 So by your own definition, if we could build a planet that we could all live on that would make us a god? or if we could create air (Straight oxygen would kill us), create a species (Test tube babies), then we would be a god. Creating soil from a word? That is a stretch in anyones world, unless your delusional. The Church of the immanent is a man made creation. Believing in unseen things is one thing, but when we can verify them with meters and such, how truly invisible are they!
Switching the subject? If you did not know, they can now monitor brain activity and subject it to stimuli that would make parts of a brain react, which they can then monitor and view in real time. This does however bring up a good point, what happens when man can do what a god is supposed to only do? After all, in the bible it says that he made us in his image. Technology will either verify a gods existence, or prove that we have been praying and praising only thin air. its Just a matter of time
Wasn't switching subject. You said "Believing in unseen things is one thing, but when we can verify them with meters and such, how truly invisible are they! "
And meters measure EFFECTS not the originating energy which creates.
Just like a wind sock measures and indicates that the invisible wind is actually happening (in case you couldn't FEEL its effects on your skin, for example). We can measure the result, but that doesn't define the event or energy.
You are right on what meters detect, but just because we do not know where it originates from does not constitute that some supernatural force created it. I might add your comments did not refer to origin, but pointed out about not being able to see things, invisible I believe is how you put it. I am only presenting my point of view, and in my humble opinion, either god once existed and is no longer around, or he was never here to begin with. Does it really matter how it all started?
Who says He's hiding? He's not your personal magician. He reveals Himself to those who choose Him. Your defiant challenges to the almighty are an insult. Sorry. No magic tricks for you. I have, by the way, seen His answers, provision, healing, and love. Come to the almighty with the proper frame of mind and you'll get answers too. Stop living with a 'blank mind'.
Does this make any sense, he reveals himself to those who choose him? There is no one to insult it seems except for those like you who expect everyone to bow to this unseen entity. No one is asking for magic tricks, because as we all know that there is no such thing as magic. You say that you have seen his love, do you mean things like the holocaust, the ethnic cleansing in Africa, the current earthquakes in Haiti. Either god does not exist or he does not really have control as you suggest.
Maybe the difference between you and I jwalker59 is that you are concerned of the afterlife and are afraid and want to secure a position in a make believe place. How much do you remember of your birth? probably nothing, that is exactly what you will experience at the time of your death. Christians even believe that no matter how nice you are here in this life, it does not help with your position in heaven unless you accept jesus. That to me raises red flags, conditional love, is not true love.
Is this for real? Why is god asking any questions in the first place, is he not supposed to know everything?
I think people need to ask themselves these questions and more while still here on earth, why wait till you kick the bucket! You may not have a second chance, whether there is a god or not!
You are correct that we should be asking these questions to ourselves now!
But to your point, that you thought that God has all the answers. God does and all the solutions. But God has given man the choice, the decision. Part of the decision that man gets to make is there a God or not.
Lets say there is a god (I am an Atheist), You say god gave us the ability to make a choice. But is it really a choice? You are free to choose as you want, but choose not to believe in god or Jesus and you get sent to an eternal hell and have your flesh ripped from your body in the lake of fire for all eternity, I think that any decision would be under duress, and not really free of choice. This type of manipulation has been used for years by the religious, and it works for some, yet not others
Really amusingly, even atheists have near death experiences which include some experience of a "power" or "force" or energy which they very quickly call God or Creator or Higher Power. And they don't stay atheists lol... They don't bible bash either. They just KNOW. (used to be called Gnosticism).
To our way of measuring, this Matrix is invisible. To psychics it isn't and quantum physics now uses similar terms to describe this "force" and tries to measure/study it. If its not there, why bother?
Now your talking about psychics? If you believe in them, it is no short order for you to believe in angels, demons, ghosts, leprichauns, zeus, ra or even that the world is flat or that it is only 10 to 12 thousand years old. Near death experiences is not a good crucible to prove or deny a god or a "power" or "force" as you put it. What if someone came back from a NDE and said that they only saw black or nothing, which has also occured. Would that prove that there is no god? Maybe!
I tell you what, provide me an experiment that I should do that would convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that a god exists. And don't give me the usual "look around you and see his miracles" line, cause the muslims think that a cow mooing "Allah" is a miracle. Because if a god exists, just like your breathing air and wind examples, it should be so plain and in your face, that it cannot be denied. I stop breathing I die, if I do not believe in a god, life goes on. See what you come up with.
These are rhetorical questions expressing Biblical truth. "Treating others as you'd be treated." "Treasuring people rather than possesions. "Looking through the surface to the core of a persons' value and need" "Being a friend" "Working Hard" etc.
As to your previous comment, God is the source of joy, love, etc. To choose against Him is to choose eternity without those things that come from him. That would be hell.
"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord..."
We do not need god to know what is right or wrong, if god is the source joy, love etc. then he is also the source of pain, sadness, death and abandonment, just as he is responsible for the creation of man along with the creation of the serpent, satan etc. You cannot have it only one way. God creates sin, then later he creates a loophole for these sins by dropping his son onto earth only to die? Am I the only one that sees the error of that? Choosing against this god produces neither good nor bad
Cold is the absence of heat. Rejecting God(heat) is accepting sin(cold).
The absence of Godly reason and influence is to embrace the opposite of life affirming elements that flow from God. (A stark example is the condition of schools since the 60's when we banned prayer).
You are infinitely valuable to God. You are so valuable, He became a man and died in your place.
My question is, 'What in your life derailed your faith in God and replaced it with faith in spontaneous generation?'
You make it sound as if cold is a bad thing, they are integral and depend on each other.
The banning of prayer in schools was not the reason of any detriment to education, lets look at the a miriad of local and federal cutbacks, and lets not forget the parents of today who have a whole different idea on raising children. They want to be friends instead of parents, and it shows.
After my stint in the military service, I went from religious to where I am today, and do not regret it!
Cold - Just trying to illustrate a point. Cold=absence of heat. Hell = absence of God. The statistics on schools, crime, and taking prayer out of school are acedemic. And regret comes later. Sorry.
First off, cold and heat can be verified and reproduced to demonstrate their inherent properties. I am afraid to say that god, heaven, hell and prayer are all pipe dreams, cannot be verified and cannot be reproduced to validify their existence. How do you prove that god exists? You can't, and faith is just a personal belief, just as some believe in fairies or ghosts, but it does not mean they exist. If god, odin, ra, zeus were a proven fact, you and I would not be having this discussion.
Where do you read that God is asking questions as if God does not have the answers. All I have said is that God has given man the choice in which to believe and follow. Just as you have been given the choice. It is up to you with what you do it with it.
Not much of a choice. Follow others and spend your eternity in hell, follow me and have an eternity in a heaven. It is as if I ran you to the edge of a cliff, and said love and live, or deny me and I push you the rest of the way over the cliff. Making a choice under duress is not much of a choice no matter how you look at it. This is where it makes me feel that god is a creation of man. A group of people trying to control others through the use of spiritual intimidation.
You are right, if god has the answers and knows all, then prayer itself is useles since he already knows what is to come making any prayer impotent. Thanks for pointing that out.
Seems you blame God for your experiences; and in doing so, like a willful child, you reject It. You aren't going deep enough. You aren't asking Your Self the right questions. You are accepting others' concepts of what Universal Intelligence is.
That is a childish view, not a mature (spiritually speaking) view. You consign YOURSELF to hell on earth; don't need a god to do that - your own pre-emptive strike. Let your Self out of the prison of the mind, and learn to ask the deeper questions.
You're really not reading what I am saying. My point is that I don't blame anyone for my bad experiences, nor do I glorify an invisible entity when good things happen. Am I the child because I do not believe in a god, or is it the person who believes fervently in an unseen deity, you may as well believe in santa or the tooth fairy. I do not have a hell on earth,I am quite happy with my family and friends. I have asked the deeper questions in my youth when I was religious,they were never answered
@mej284 I heard a testimony that when he went to heaven Christ was there and he was in a line, and christ asked every person in that line one question, have you learned to love.
@ElPressie Maybe this should be retitled to "Ten Things God can't ask you on that day, since no one is home"
I think the assumption here is that we shall all upon our deaths be rewarded or punished for what we have done in our lives after answering questions from some celestial omnipotent deity who then decides whether or not we have lived up to his/her expectations. When we die we should are released from any expectations, hence the term "Rest in Peace" no questions asked.
How can I let God into my life? how can i let him guide me
TotallyFabtablous121 7 months ago
@TotallyFabtablous121 ask him to reveal himself to you
jetevovi 3 months ago
@TotallyFabtablous121 Pray to Him
SuperCrazysoccerfan 3 months ago
Ouch. Bad choice of color for the text esp. in the first 2 questions; makes it unreadable.
k0smon 1 year ago
I found your video by mistake but watched the whole thing and thought it was really neat, thank you so much :)
B0yardigi0rn0 1 year ago
since, most theologians say God knows everything already, why would He need to ask anybody anything, other than just to make some point, perhaps?
roaringwaterbay 1 year ago
I also don't think that utility can be the only argument for grounds in human rights. For example, I see someone I really despise drowning (perhaps in a war), yet I feel morally obligated to save him. How can this be? Why would I endanger my own life to save some one who isn't even of my own kin? Such feelings shouldn't exist speaking strictly for survival instinct, instead they should have died out a long time ago... In other words, why would I risk my opportunity to reproduce...
kibbles5724 1 year ago
@kibbles5724 cont... to save someone not even of my own community?
kibbles5724 1 year ago
@kibbles5724 Or is it the fear of a god that you think forces you to do these apprehensive good deeds? Then the same can be said for why do you accept jesus and god, for fear of being tormented for all eternity? Would that not make your allegence an act of preservation? Would your faith in a god be as adament if you knew that no matter what you did, you were still going to hell? Would you then abandon christianity and start killing babies and being disorderly?
EchosFromaBlankMind 1 year ago
@kibbles5724 There were many that did not exhibit compassion during the inquisition, in the name of god. You make it sound as if there is some force compelling you even though you may not want to do something, do you find it strange that you would want to help another person? Your a good person, I served in the Coast Guard just because I liked helping others. Was it a god that instructed me? No, it was a choice I made alone.
EchosFromaBlankMind 1 year ago
@TheReach1 It seems either I am simplifying this too much, or you are overcomplicating life. So as I understand it, all of the wonderful things that are done come from a god, and all of the dismal and horrific things also? You make it sound as if we are just marionettes with the gods pulling all of the strings for their/his pleasure. The idea of Karma is to make you feel that the bad will be punished, and the good rewarded, but by your definition, the gods determine that. So much for free will!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
The God force creates us all as "perfect" beings"...but we all stray from this perfect form as souls...we all go throught the experiences that each soul needs to cleanse our imperfections and return to the purer state ,Karma is just the balancing of our actions,Think of Jesus,for instance as an example of a perfected soul and an opposite, Adolf Hitler, as a soul grossly imperfected...sort of an extreme example.....
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 Jesus was just a nice guy who pissed off the wrong people who killed him. Hitler was just a paranoid meglomaniac with delusions of grandeur. There are no imperfections that need to be cleansed. All we need to do is treat others better then we would treat ourselves regardless of your or my belief. I would like to think that we benefit karmicly by good deeds and actions, but you and I know that is not the case, what happens, happens. An asshole could win the lotto, a nice person robbed.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@EchosFromaBlankMind +Truly, all we need to do is treat everyone better than ourselves..creating good karma...healing what is wrong in the world..All the actions you speak of get leveled offf eventually in the karmic balance,The good man with bad things happening to him..may have created his situation in a past life.The bad man getting rich..may have done a good deed in previous life and any bad thing he does now..will have to pay back next time around.God watches over all of this.
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 Paying the price for what was done in a previous life? Makes absolutely no sense. Karma is another selfish excuse of ours in hopes of improving our lives or receiving favors from the gods above. The same concept that religion would have you believe gets you into heaven. You should do things because it is the right thing to do, and makes you and others feel good, not to improve your karmic balance or to ensure a good spot for your heavenly seating reservation. No cosmic referee either.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@EchoesFromaBlankMind:":Lord I've wandered this desert too long".love that line !I'm listening to the song now..thank you God,,thank you singer Bob Carlisle..thank you Echoes for your discourse!Karma is just a balancing act like a seesaw that rights itself in the center when it is pushed up or down...God and his universe seek equilibrium!"Flood through my soul and pour out your mercy"..Love it! !Good acts are spontaneous,,not planned.Even the simplest soul knows that a bad act has a consequence,
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 We both agree on some points you make. However I am slightly confused, I did not know that Christians believed in reincarnation, please clarify your stance & reasons for bringing Karma into this discussion. I do believe that the world works in cycles, I am a hunter and can attest to good and bad seasons based on food supply, birth rates and predation.
However the world does not care of good nor bad deeds, it matters not. Even the simplest soul needs to be taught right from wrong.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@EchosFromaBlankMind
Then who's gonna tell me that it's not the "right thing to do", by golly, if i want to exploit the poor, enslave the masses, and kill all I don't like, who are you to tell me that it's wrong?
kibbles5724 1 year ago
@kibbles5724 It all starts with your parents. Do a little study into anthropology and see that not all societies have the bible, but do a have code in which they live. Common sense and survival instincts dictate that if you want to coexist with others then you don't go around killing and all the other stuff, you work together. However, even with these bible standards men have broken the rules. So it all boils down to, is how far are you willing to go?
EchosFromaBlankMind 1 year ago
@kibbles5724 No god will tell you what to do, it first starts with your parents and then your life experiences. As I said before it also depends on what is considered the norm for you (Hence the Anthropology comment previously). If god is to be your father, then he is an absent parent. Without your folks, do you think that a god would raise and guide you, or that you would revert to a feral state, or adapt to your environment?
EchosFromaBlankMind 1 year ago
@EchosFromaBlankMind
I think your missing the point. I didn't say that other societies didn't have moral and ethical codes by which they live. I said to what point are you willing to believe this, until someone says, "napalming babies is culturally relative". God gives man the ability to to do good, so that does not mean they are excluded from this.
kibbles5724 1 year ago
@kibbles5724 It is not god that gives man anything, maybe your missing the point. What I think your trying to say is that a god put this compassion into man that would not be there otherwise. How many people do you think HAVE left someone to die? Most people are good, this I know to be true. But it is not something is put there by some entity, it is what you have learned through parents and your own moral standards.
EchosFromaBlankMind 1 year ago
To EchoesfromablankMind Early in my marriage..to a man I recently lost,.,we studied the God worlds in a teaching known as "Soul travel" (or Eckankar) We learned alot, but we fell away from the teachings as time passed.When my husband died, I was tugged to the other side with him and I felt a rush of love the"living waters"as in the song song poured through me and easing my grief.. When you feel it personally..it is a mighty power....no doubts here!
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 I am truly sorry for your loss, I hope that my wife outlives me, I do not know what I would do without her. Teachings are just that, a description and a methodology that is subjective to the situation and environment surrounding you. What good is learning about the internet and computers if you are in an area where neither exist, and as well what good are skills at raising crops or animals if you live in the inner city. These simple facts point to simpler answer for our existence.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
I believe "God", or the higher power, guides us in our search for deeper meaning and also for mere survival in these "lower worlds". There are clues and signals everywhere to pick up.I thank you ,and I hope you don't outlive your wife, because it is hard at first, being the one left behind. When you come through the tunnel of grief.you arrive at the other side of renewed faith,there is much joy and celebration in the tasks for soul after this life has passed. and a beautiful reunion,
TheReach1 2 years ago
As you state, "I Believe" is just that, your own belief, how can one argue with that? I must say that I am at the other end of the spectrum and feel that as far as what I have seen and experienced, (I too was once religious) I must say that any proof of a god or a higher supernatural power has yet to be found. I feel that we overcomplicate this world and our lives with these supernatural conjurings as being fact. I will switch over when a god does not hide from us anymore, still waiting!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@EchoesFromaBlankMind :Listen to those lyrics:"Lord so many times you called my name..I turned my face the other way...yet before I even saw the moon..you loved me....how could I be so blind...when I awoke.I created my darkness..Forgive me and wash me clean again...so come living water..flow thorugh me like a river...my heart's been thirsting so long...Flood through my soul..and pour out your mercy,,,Come living water fill me." I think that says it all and you stil might choose to disagree!
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 Those are lovely lyrics, but what do they prove? Not whether a god exists or not, but a feeling that someone has towards a possible god. Does a child who believes in the "Puff the magic dragon" song make it real? No, and I am sure you would agree with that, but why should the song you present be any different. I could write a song about how much I love the tooth fairy, but it would not bring it into existence. This could bring up the question, did god create us, or did we create god.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@EchosFromaBlankMind ...Well, frankly I never believed in "Puff the Magic Dragon" which was a veiled reference to marijuana! Of late, I have come into contact with others like myself from various faiths, who have a strong faith in the higher power..We have helped each other. I have been priviledged to meet these others with such strong faith..it has been quite a journey.I've run out of arguments for you tonight...but God is in everything that you see and hear,
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 Your missing the point about poor puff, what would you think about someone who truly believed that Puff existed. Having faith in something does not make it real. I am sorry you feel that this is an argument, I do not feel that we are arguing as much as trying to get to the root of the matter. Are monotheists any more correct than polytheists, after all creating all of this that you see and hear is quite a task, such as angels being messengers and such, and possibly other entities?
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@TheReach1 After all, where does reality end and the supernatural god that you speak of begin? I am not trying to sell you on the lack of a god, but great claims require great proof. If I told you that I spoke with god yesterday, would you truly in your heart believe me, or would you harbor that grain of doubt, because deep down you know that it would not be possible. God is in everything, that would also include, war, famine, hunger, disease, earthquakes, storms, massive deaths, need I go on!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
We are just floating around in the bottom of the bathtub,.the ring around the tub so to speak.There are higher God worlds above us, with a purer vibration.When you hear an artist compose a beautiful heavenly song..where did that come from? They have channeled it down through their consciousness and presented it here on the lower earth plane from above,War, death, famine are all necessary componants in the balancing act that is "karma". Souls go up
for a sort of retooling,coming again to learn.
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 You then again raise the question of did we create god, or did a god create us. You give yourself little credit for your accomplishments and creativeness. Why does inspiration have to come from a god and not your experiences. We as humans tend to overcomplicate matters, life included. Do you think that the animals and insects worry about a god?, most likely not. I do however agree that the bad stuff is just the normal going ons of life in general.A sine wave that has its ups and downs
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
All people or "souls" come to their knowledge of God and the higher worlds at their own pace and in their own way. It is pointless and against Gods way to criticize others for where they stand in their God beliefs.. All will come to know God eventually.I had my years of doubt and now firmly believe in the God for all people and all of life. I had a reawakening to my spiritual beliefs..everyone will eventually.God is great...he waits for all.
TheReach1 2 years ago
The Bible's archeology, history, and prophecy speaks eloquently for itself.
You've taken a hit with life experience but it didn't disprove the God you followed. It disappointed you. An eternal view of things puts it back in perspective. Don't abandon the hope you knew. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"
We have a short life but eternity is forever. Do you really want to abandon faith in God for faith in mindless death? You're smarter than that.
jwalker59 2 years ago
@jwalker59 You say "Do you really want to abandon faith in God for faith in mindless death? You're smarter than that."
So by what I'm reading, is it truly for your god that you believe in him, or is it just for your own selfish fears of possibly going to a hell. Self preservation I would guess. Would you still believe if this god were to tell you, "J, you've been a good guy, but I don't see you getting into my heaven, so I am going to send you down below, dress light!" I'll leave it at that.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
So there's no confusion, It's for the love of God and the obvious truth of His creation and presence in my life I follow Him. Let's just say, however, you're correct, for arguments sake. If there's a hell to avoid, you're a blithering idiot and a fool to shake your fist at it and scream your unbelief. It doesn't care. God, on the other hand, became YOUR sacrifice so YOU could live eternity with Him. "The wise man sees the danger and takes refuge." YOU choose. YOU alone are responsible.
jwalker59 2 years ago
The only reason you consider me a blithering idiot and a fool is because I do not follow nor believe in your doctrines or dogmas, I however do not hold anything against you nor have I been reduced to name calling. You are right though, if there is a heaven or a hell, or even if there is none, both of our opinions matter not, but we won't know until we die.
How can it be a sacrifice when he is supposed to be immortal to begin with? He had nothing to lose, that is if you believe in magic!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Let me spotlight what appears to be the problem here. You want God to follow your rules. I understand this and wish, at times, for the same thing but the fact is, He is the creator and we have no right to demand OUR way in things. It's reasonable to follow God and believe His Word. You are correct however; one must believe to have the veil removed. Miracles abound and I've seen them myself (ie. healing, provision, etc.) Just because you haven't seen Him, doesn't mean He's not there to be found.
jwalker59 2 years ago
@jwalker59 No I do not want a god to follow my rule, even if one existed. It boils down to that we alone are responsible for what we do. Praying only occupies your time. Anyone who feels that they can alter the physical world by praying, casting spells, is delusional at best. You may feel that it is a reasonable thing to follow any deity and their dogma, but all I see is the trouble that it causes. The muslims say they are the ones, the christians say that they are,religion needs to just go away
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
...Including the religion of self/atheism. And by the way, YOU'RE saying YOUR beliefs are the 'one'. Sorry. I'll take God over dirt any day.
jwalker59 2 years ago
I am not saying my belief is the "One" I'll leave that to you and the muslims, jews and other religions. All that I am saying is that we are responsible for our own lives, that there is no god who will feed nor cloth you or let you win the lottery, also if he is responsible for the good things, then he should be responsible for the bad, but if he is not around to lay down the law, well then what else can be expected, even a dictator or a despot shows himself to his subjects once in awhile.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Give your life to YOUR God.... a God that listens and wants to hear from you... A God that loves you and everyone else and wants to help you succeed and endure your troubles...not a Christian God, or a Muslim God, or a Jewish God or a Buddist God...but just the ONE God.. who is the only God for all these religions & for all the souls on the earth and in the universe.. Love God. ..his power is endless, infinite... all-powerful,,..
TheReach1 2 years ago
You sound very sincere in you beliefs, and I admire you for that. But in my own experience, and I was religious at one point in my life, I have come to find that we dont need a god and as for what I have seen, there is none, if there is a god there would be no doubt and you and I would not be having this discussion. I prefer to live in the here and now. The more I think about it, the further from a god I seem to get. I listen to all of these people debating god, he should not be this difficult.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Take Dottie Rambo as an example, here this woman sings the praises of god and his love, and how does she die? Not in her sleep or in some angelic setting, but in a bus wreck, she probably suffered before she died, is this what your god does to those who praise his name? And I am sure that you have seen the same suffering in your lifetime as I have, I was in the service and had to deal with death regularly in different parts of the world & not only in the US. No god just makes sense.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@EchoesFromaBlankMind The seemingly incomprehensible events you describe are the playing out of the whole, a balancing act.The eastern philosophies call it "karma". It is all part of the bigger plan to bring souls to a higher place ...to a state of "purity" and to a balance with each other and ultimately, a peace within the soul of everyman and woman. This is a work endlessly in progress.Find love for each and ev every man and woman in your heart,..the rest follows...
TheReach1 2 years ago
@TheReach1 The events themselves are not incomprehensible, its the belief that some supernatural being had anything to do with it, good or bad. Is there a higher place, I do not think there is. And if there is no other mystical place after we die, is that such a bad thing! To have your soul live in an eternity of the same thing day in and day out. that seems more tragic to me. As for the physical world the old has to give way to the new, plain and simple.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
I think you really know the answer to the examples you cite. The moon is probably a reference to an apocolyptic disaster. You have no idea of God's answers to believers' prayers because you're not a believer. And God already answered the Cain/Able issue when He said "his blood cries out to me from the grave." Of COURSE He knew where Able was. He was giving Cain a chance to come clean. But, I think you knew that. Let's stick to honest enquiry please.
jwalker59 2 years ago
Back to conjecture concerning the moon thing eh! So in order to understand god, we need to first beleive in him? That would be great if he would just be so kind as to pop in every once and awhile to see how things are doing. But we both know deep down the answer to that one. I was religious once, and was as fervent as you are now, but my lifes experiences have shown me otherwise. Believe in what you want, but you have not shown why christianity is the correct religion compared to all the others!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@jwalker59 By your own description, god asks questions that he already knows the answers to? Then god could have stopped the murder, since he would have known it was going to occur. Why would he only create two people? This whole concept of an omnipotent being creating people to essentially worship him sounds like a Greek tragedy, and in most cases it is. The story of caine does allude to incestuous dalliences,where else would the people that caine met have come from! which is never explained.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
If we're going to discuss life origins, let's just spotlight your belief in incestuous microbes that sprung to life from non-life and found mates and something to eat! Talk about fairy tales.
Adam and his descendants didn't have the problems with genes that God regulated later. Brother/sister was ok in the beginning. Sorry to knock over the straw man so fast.
God gave YOU the free will to accept or reject. Again, You're responsible. Make good choices for eternity. It's a long time.
jwalker59 2 years ago
Hey if you can believe that someone just uttered words and things appeared out of nowhere, then life from nothing and then progressing into more and more complex beings should not be such a mental exercise. Now there you go making excuses and saying that incest was OK, kind of a little creepy! Why did he not just make more people to begin with? Is it really free will you speak of? Choose whatever you want, but if you reject me, you will burn in hell! Sounds more like man trying to control man.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
There is no " Hell.".,except maybe the one that some make here for others on the earth...and that is just cosmic karma being played out. The higher God power has infinite love for every soul...regardless of what state each is in. Hell is really a construct of ..man,separate from God. Adolf Hitler epitomized a soul that had strayed very far from God in his heart.He had no love.
TheReach1 2 years ago
You start off well by stating that there is no hell, which would also indicate that there is no heaven, by your own accounts. Then you move on to what you call a higher power, and then rattle off how much infinite love this entity has for all. How do you know this? have you seen or spoken to this entity? A cosmic Karma would indicate another type of belief altogether. Why does there need to be a god? Why would he remain hidden for so long? The concept of no god is more factual then one with it.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Sorry, text limits prohibited answering one of your statements. The accuracy I refer to is the history, geography, and prophecy of the Word. There are no inconsistencies. What there isn't, is no evidence of animals becoming other animals, accurate dating methods, and "scientific" assertions that the Colorado river carved the Grand Canyon. (see 1980 explosion of Mount St. Helens).
jwalker59 2 years ago
You believe that dinosaurs and jesus were around together at the same time, and that the world is only 9 to 12 thousand years old?
If god were a fact, you and I would not be having this dicussion.
There are those who believe that when a photograph is taken, their soul has been stolen, because they do not know any better, you and I both know that to be untrue. It is because they do not understand technology. God is the same, he is like Oz, there are those behind the curtain who keep him alive.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
You are, of course, over simplifying this trying to make me look foolish, while you totally ignore the fact you believe life sprung from rocks. We're both religious. You, however, believe in dirt. Please don't act like my belief in almighty God is silly and your belief is not.
jwalker59 2 years ago
Have I ever said that life sprung from rocks? I think not.
It is funny how you vilified science a few statements back concerning dating methods and other scientific assertations. It sounds to me that you are a follower of Mr. Hovind, who has been proven wrong concerning many of his statements. It is too bad that the criteria that you use to disprove a theory of science, is not used on religious beliefs. You cannot claim that the bible is a perfect works, when it truly is not, that is all.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Yet you want us to believe that some imaginary super power waved his hands and carved the grand canyon or even created this planet and world. The bible is not a perfect book, for example, Isaiah 30:26 The moon will someday be as bright as the sun now is (Moonlight is reflected). Matthew 18:19 If two [believers] agree about anything they ask, God will do it for them. Genesis 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is. But is not God everywhere, sees everything, Nothing is hidden from his view?
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Your assertion about what we'll experience at death is conjecture. It's the unscientific and ethereal things like love and beauty that make life worth living.
Your red flags aren't salient when the creator states the rules. Where do you think you got the idea for right and wrong in the first place? God places no conditions on His love but, like an earthly father, if the son rejects Him, His hands are tied on reward. No malice, just fact.
Nice isn't the issue. Obeying the creator is.
jwalker59 2 years ago
As for the experience at death, what you really mean to say is that what you and I are saying is conjecture and not just my statement. Right or wrong are not determined by some genetic code implanted in us, it is the process of learning to deal with others in order to survive. So when others do wrong, is i because god skipped a few? According to the christians, there is a condition of his love. If my son did not like me, I would still love him, but should I punish him? No need to obey a creator.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
The facts are all around you and, as the Word says, "they are without excuse..."
Spontaneous generation has never produced life and 'kinds' have never produced other kinds. You have the facts. It's denial eating up your argument. The historicity, authenticity, and accuracy of the Bible is easy to point out (in a larger venu).
Aside from the facts, I've seen the more 'supernatural' aspects you alluded to. Jesus is the answer and the power. Being closer to death will bring it home for you.
jwalker59 2 years ago
You try the same arguments as Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort, please do not also use that idiotic bannana example. You are correct, denial is afoot, but it is on your field. Please clarify your comment on "Kinds" so that I do not confuse it with other religious theories. What accuracy of the bible are you referring to? You should also point out it's inaccuracies to be fair. I have dealt plenty with death, in the military I handled the dead and tried to save others lives, That is what changed me!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
My goal is to shed brainwashing from either side. I'm not 'religious' as some would define it (and I'm not familiar with the arguments you refer to). The popular science community has embraced a very unscientific stance (life from non-life) and shoved it so firmly down our throats that anyone who looks clearly at the evidence is mocked and shunned (even fired) if they don't agree with the accepted view. 'kinds' means dog/wolf/coyote kind will not become 'pig' or cat kind if we wait long enough.
jwalker59 2 years ago
You are right in that cats and dogs will not intermingel and and create something else, but that is biology and nothing more. But changes and developments of a species has occured and has been documented to a point where the original differs from the final and most recent product of evolution. This creator that you speak of, where is it? Why hide? When was the last time he built a church instead of having men do it? If he is as grand as all say, popping up a building would be childs play!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
"When was the last time he built a church instead of having men do it?"
Now that's funny...
when was the last time a man built a planet we could all live on? And countless other species, all dancing to a different (invisible) drum?
go outside and create soil from a Word.
go outside and stand in a forest, otherwise known as Church of the Immanent.
Breathe in the invisible - otherwise known as oxygen.
You believe in things unseen every day.
Why not a Template that still defies our understanding?
Kayenne54 2 years ago
@Kayenne54 So by your own definition, if we could build a planet that we could all live on that would make us a god? or if we could create air (Straight oxygen would kill us), create a species (Test tube babies), then we would be a god. Creating soil from a word? That is a stretch in anyones world, unless your delusional. The Church of the immanent is a man made creation. Believing in unseen things is one thing, but when we can verify them with meters and such, how truly invisible are they!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Tell me what meter man has invented to truly measure Love?
Kayenne54 2 years ago
Switching the subject? If you did not know, they can now monitor brain activity and subject it to stimuli that would make parts of a brain react, which they can then monitor and view in real time. This does however bring up a good point, what happens when man can do what a god is supposed to only do? After all, in the bible it says that he made us in his image. Technology will either verify a gods existence, or prove that we have been praying and praising only thin air. its Just a matter of time
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
It also says in the Bible "Ye are gods".
Wasn't switching subject. You said "Believing in unseen things is one thing, but when we can verify them with meters and such, how truly invisible are they! "
And meters measure EFFECTS not the originating energy which creates.
Just like a wind sock measures and indicates that the invisible wind is actually happening (in case you couldn't FEEL its effects on your skin, for example). We can measure the result, but that doesn't define the event or energy.
Kayenne54 2 years ago
You are right on what meters detect, but just because we do not know where it originates from does not constitute that some supernatural force created it. I might add your comments did not refer to origin, but pointed out about not being able to see things, invisible I believe is how you put it. I am only presenting my point of view, and in my humble opinion, either god once existed and is no longer around, or he was never here to begin with. Does it really matter how it all started?
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Who says He's hiding? He's not your personal magician. He reveals Himself to those who choose Him. Your defiant challenges to the almighty are an insult. Sorry. No magic tricks for you. I have, by the way, seen His answers, provision, healing, and love. Come to the almighty with the proper frame of mind and you'll get answers too. Stop living with a 'blank mind'.
jwalker59 2 years ago
Does this make any sense, he reveals himself to those who choose him? There is no one to insult it seems except for those like you who expect everyone to bow to this unseen entity. No one is asking for magic tricks, because as we all know that there is no such thing as magic. You say that you have seen his love, do you mean things like the holocaust, the ethnic cleansing in Africa, the current earthquakes in Haiti. Either god does not exist or he does not really have control as you suggest.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Maybe the difference between you and I jwalker59 is that you are concerned of the afterlife and are afraid and want to secure a position in a make believe place. How much do you remember of your birth? probably nothing, that is exactly what you will experience at the time of your death. Christians even believe that no matter how nice you are here in this life, it does not help with your position in heaven unless you accept jesus. That to me raises red flags, conditional love, is not true love.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Is this for real? Why is god asking any questions in the first place, is he not supposed to know everything?
I think people need to ask themselves these questions and more while still here on earth, why wait till you kick the bucket! You may not have a second chance, whether there is a god or not!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
You are correct that we should be asking these questions to ourselves now!
But to your point, that you thought that God has all the answers. God does and all the solutions. But God has given man the choice, the decision. Part of the decision that man gets to make is there a God or not.
mej284 2 years ago
Lets say there is a god (I am an Atheist), You say god gave us the ability to make a choice. But is it really a choice? You are free to choose as you want, but choose not to believe in god or Jesus and you get sent to an eternal hell and have your flesh ripped from your body in the lake of fire for all eternity, I think that any decision would be under duress, and not really free of choice. This type of manipulation has been used for years by the religious, and it works for some, yet not others
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Really amusingly, even atheists have near death experiences which include some experience of a "power" or "force" or energy which they very quickly call God or Creator or Higher Power. And they don't stay atheists lol... They don't bible bash either. They just KNOW. (used to be called Gnosticism).
To our way of measuring, this Matrix is invisible. To psychics it isn't and quantum physics now uses similar terms to describe this "force" and tries to measure/study it. If its not there, why bother?
Kayenne54 2 years ago
Now your talking about psychics? If you believe in them, it is no short order for you to believe in angels, demons, ghosts, leprichauns, zeus, ra or even that the world is flat or that it is only 10 to 12 thousand years old. Near death experiences is not a good crucible to prove or deny a god or a "power" or "force" as you put it. What if someone came back from a NDE and said that they only saw black or nothing, which has also occured. Would that prove that there is no god? Maybe!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
I tell you what, provide me an experiment that I should do that would convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that a god exists. And don't give me the usual "look around you and see his miracles" line, cause the muslims think that a cow mooing "Allah" is a miracle. Because if a god exists, just like your breathing air and wind examples, it should be so plain and in your face, that it cannot be denied. I stop breathing I die, if I do not believe in a god, life goes on. See what you come up with.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
These are rhetorical questions expressing Biblical truth. "Treating others as you'd be treated." "Treasuring people rather than possesions. "Looking through the surface to the core of a persons' value and need" "Being a friend" "Working Hard" etc.
As to your previous comment, God is the source of joy, love, etc. To choose against Him is to choose eternity without those things that come from him. That would be hell.
"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord..."
jwalker59 2 years ago
We do not need god to know what is right or wrong, if god is the source joy, love etc. then he is also the source of pain, sadness, death and abandonment, just as he is responsible for the creation of man along with the creation of the serpent, satan etc. You cannot have it only one way. God creates sin, then later he creates a loophole for these sins by dropping his son onto earth only to die? Am I the only one that sees the error of that? Choosing against this god produces neither good nor bad
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Cold is the absence of heat. Rejecting God(heat) is accepting sin(cold).
The absence of Godly reason and influence is to embrace the opposite of life affirming elements that flow from God. (A stark example is the condition of schools since the 60's when we banned prayer).
You are infinitely valuable to God. You are so valuable, He became a man and died in your place.
My question is, 'What in your life derailed your faith in God and replaced it with faith in spontaneous generation?'
jwalker59 2 years ago
You make it sound as if cold is a bad thing, they are integral and depend on each other.
The banning of prayer in schools was not the reason of any detriment to education, lets look at the a miriad of local and federal cutbacks, and lets not forget the parents of today who have a whole different idea on raising children. They want to be friends instead of parents, and it shows.
After my stint in the military service, I went from religious to where I am today, and do not regret it!
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Cold - Just trying to illustrate a point. Cold=absence of heat. Hell = absence of God. The statistics on schools, crime, and taking prayer out of school are acedemic. And regret comes later. Sorry.
jwalker59 2 years ago
First off, cold and heat can be verified and reproduced to demonstrate their inherent properties. I am afraid to say that god, heaven, hell and prayer are all pipe dreams, cannot be verified and cannot be reproduced to validify their existence. How do you prove that god exists? You can't, and faith is just a personal belief, just as some believe in fairies or ghosts, but it does not mean they exist. If god, odin, ra, zeus were a proven fact, you and I would not be having this discussion.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
EFBM,
Where do you read that God is asking questions as if God does not have the answers. All I have said is that God has given man the choice in which to believe and follow. Just as you have been given the choice. It is up to you with what you do it with it.
mej284 2 years ago
Not much of a choice. Follow others and spend your eternity in hell, follow me and have an eternity in a heaven. It is as if I ran you to the edge of a cliff, and said love and live, or deny me and I push you the rest of the way over the cliff. Making a choice under duress is not much of a choice no matter how you look at it. This is where it makes me feel that god is a creation of man. A group of people trying to control others through the use of spiritual intimidation.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
You are right, if god has the answers and knows all, then prayer itself is useles since he already knows what is to come making any prayer impotent. Thanks for pointing that out.
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
Seems you blame God for your experiences; and in doing so, like a willful child, you reject It. You aren't going deep enough. You aren't asking Your Self the right questions. You are accepting others' concepts of what Universal Intelligence is.
That is a childish view, not a mature (spiritually speaking) view. You consign YOURSELF to hell on earth; don't need a god to do that - your own pre-emptive strike. Let your Self out of the prison of the mind, and learn to ask the deeper questions.
Kayenne54 2 years ago
You're really not reading what I am saying. My point is that I don't blame anyone for my bad experiences, nor do I glorify an invisible entity when good things happen. Am I the child because I do not believe in a god, or is it the person who believes fervently in an unseen deity, you may as well believe in santa or the tooth fairy. I do not have a hell on earth,I am quite happy with my family and friends. I have asked the deeper questions in my youth when I was religious,they were never answered
EchosFromaBlankMind 2 years ago
@mej284 I heard a testimony that when he went to heaven Christ was there and he was in a line, and christ asked every person in that line one question, have you learned to love.
superdubman999 1 year ago
@EchosFromaBlankMind
lol..the key word here is 'WON'T' did yah miss that one? :o)
ElPressie 1 year ago
@ElPressie Maybe this should be retitled to "Ten Things God can't ask you on that day, since no one is home"
I think the assumption here is that we shall all upon our deaths be rewarded or punished for what we have done in our lives after answering questions from some celestial omnipotent deity who then decides whether or not we have lived up to his/her expectations. When we die we should are released from any expectations, hence the term "Rest in Peace" no questions asked.
EchosFromaBlankMind 1 year ago
i like it
coachmo50 3 years ago